WEDNESDAY, 17 NOVEMBER 2004 __

          PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES

                                ____

The Council met at 14:04.

The Deputy Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000.

                   APPOINTMENT OF PROGRAMMING WHIP

                           (Announcement)

The Deputy Chairperson announced that Mr M A Sulliman has been appointed as Programming Whip with effect from 16 November 2004.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J MAHLANGU): We hope that when he takes the platform this afternoon he will also make a maiden speech. [Interjections.] What’s wrong in the House today? Thank you very much; I see there is an orderly sitting in the House. I see a very big change. This is a nice orderly sitting. Okay, you are closing in style.

                          NOTICES OF MOTION

Mr C J VAN ROOYEN: Deputy Chairperson, I give notice that at the next sitting I shall move:

That the House-

 1) takes note of the existence of an extremist white group of students
    at the University of the Free State, who call themselves the “Here
    XVII”;


 2) notes with shock an disgust that this group, under the pretext of
    promoting language and cultural rights, are involved in a regime of
    terror amongst fellow students;

 3) notes with utter contempt that this group, who wears masks so that
    they cannot be recognised for the cowards that they are, intimidate
    and physically attack students, and those who associate with blacks
    students;

 4) in the strongest possible terms condemns these criminal and cowardly
    actions of this group;

 5) calls on the university authorities and the national Minister of
    Education to institute a full, public investigation into the matter
    and to take the strongest possible action against the individuals
    involved, and whoever may be assisting and supporting them; and


 6) states clearly and unequivocally that there is no place for
    individuals or groups, in any disguise whatsoever, who discriminate
    and intimidate fellow human beings in a civilised, democratic and
    nonracial South Africa.

Mr M A MZIZI: Deputy Chairperson, I give notice that on the next sitting day of this House I shall move on behalf of the IFP:

That the House-

(1) notices with shock and dismay that teenage boys aged 13 and 15 years old appeared in the Richmond magistrate’s court in the Northern Cape on 16 November 2004 in connection with the rape of a 13-year-old girl. This heinous act happened at the time and in the month of the 16 days of activism;

(2) resolves that this act be condemned in the strongest terms it deserves; and

(3) appeals to both parents and the police to take the appropriate action to curb the violence against children.

Mnr K SINCLAIR: Agb Adjunkvoorsitter, hiermee gee ek kennis dat ek op die volgende sittingsdag van die Raad sal voorstel:

Dat die Raad kennis neem-

(1) van die besluit van die raad van die Universiteit van Stellenbosch om ‘n eredoktorsgraad aan dr Bram Fischer postuum toe te ken;

(2) dat die besluit om Dr Fischer te vereer vir sy rol en bydrae om ‘n regverdige en demokratiese bestel in Suid-Afrika na te streef, verwelkom word;

(3) dat Dr Fischer, as Afrikaanssprekende, erkenning kry en sy naam gevoeg word by talle ander wat hulle beywer het om Suid-Afrika ‘n beter plek vir al sy mense te maak; en

(4) dat die besluit sal meedoen om die Universiteit van Stellenbosch se rol as leier en instrument tot omvorming in tersiêre onderrig te herbevestig. (Translation of Afrikaans notice of motion follows.)

[Mr K SINCLAIR: Hon Deputy Chairperson, I hereby give notice that I shall move on the next sitting day of the Council:

That the Council notes- (1) the decision by the Council of the University of Stellenbosch to award an honorary doctorate to Dr Bram Fischer posthumously;

(2) that the decision to honour Dr Fischer for his role and contribution in pursuing a just and democratic dispensation in South Africa is welcomed;

(3) that Dr Fischer, as an Afrikaans-speaking person, receives recognition and joins many others who strove to make South Africa a better place for all its people; and

(4) that the decision will contribute to reaffirming the role of the University of Stellenbosch as a leader and an instrument of transformation in tertiary education.]

                           MOTIONS NOTICE




                   ADDITIONAL ITEMS ON ORDER PAPER


                         (Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: That the Council-

    1) resolves that the following item be added to today’s Order Paper
       after Order No 12:
       Consideration of Report of Select Committee on Security and
       Constitutional Affairs on the Protocol to the African Charter on
       Human and People’s Rights on the Rights of Women in Africa;


    2) notes that the farewell speeches will accordingly become Order
       No 14 on the Order Paper; and


    3) further notes that all political parties have been consulted and
       are in agreement that the Council should not rise without
       considering this important issue.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

                     WELCOMING NEW MEMBER TO DA


                         (Draft Resolution)

Mr O M THETJENG: Deputy Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council-

 1) congratulates Mr Majakathata Mokoena, who was the leader of the
    Economic Freedom Movement, for joining our ranks and welcomes him;


 2) notes that his knowledge and contribution to the party will go a
    long way to silence our critics, who think we have reached a
    ceiling;


 3) reminds our critics that most of them are about to eat humble pie as
    more and more people join our ranks;

 4) notes that he was a student leader in Soweto in 1976, and went into
    exile to escape political persecution from the apartheid regime;

 5) notes that many such individuals are starting to see the light at
    the end of the tunnel;

 6) notes that it is the prerogative of every citizen of this country,
    who believes in the liberal democracy, to oppose centralisation of
    state control and one-party influence of every sphere of people’s
    lives; and


 7) further expresses that he has arrived safely, and this is his
    permanent home.[Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Order! Is there any objection to the motion? [Interjections.]In the light that there is an objection the motion may not be proceeded with. The motion without notice therefore becomes a notice of motion. Order!

               NATIONAL SMALL BUSINESS AMENDMENT BILL


            (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: Chairperson and hon members, the amendment of the National Small Business Act is primarily driven by the need to improve the impact that government is having on the small business sector in its delivery of nonfinancial support services.

Over the past ten years there have been numerous studies and consultations, which have identified some weaknesses in the approach taken to support small businesses since 1994. Given the importance of this sector to achieve economic growth, create jobs and contribute towards black economic empowerment, it is necessary that our policy and implementation framework be improved from time to time.

The amendment proposed in the National Small Business Amendment Bill of 2004 will see the creation of a new national government agency that will co- ordinate the provision of business support services to small businesses across South Africa. The Bill therefore: Repeals all provisions pertaining to the Ntsika Enterprises Promotion Agency; provides for the establishment of the small enterprises development agency, Seda as a juristic person; makes provision for the incorporation of the Ntsika Enterprises Promotion Agency, the National Manufacturing Advisory Centre and any designated institution into the agency that is to be established; provides for the necessary transitional arrangements to effect the establishment of Seda and the incorporation of Ntsika and the National Manufacturing Advisory Centre; and provides for other matters connected therewith.

Through the process of consultation and analysis of the shortcomings of the current small businesses support framework, the government has seen it as necessary that the proposed new agency achieves the following: That it establishes a service delivery network that is visible at local level to address the issues of access and outreach which will see provincial and local Seda offices being established, that it facilitates access to information and access to opportunities for entrepreneurial activities, that its programmes deliver according to the diverse needs of small enterprises so that they address sector specific support that it caters to small enterprises of different sizes; and that it considers provincial and local needs in these services. The new agency should work with and utilise existing service provider networks and create partnerships with stakeholders to leverage resources and integrate delivery systems. It should also have strong systems for monitoring and evaluating service delivery so that impact and progress can be regularly and accurately assessed.

For this agency to deliver according to this framework, it is clear that there needs to be strong co-operation and co-ordination between the three tiers of government. The Seda will therefore need to ensure that there is clarity between the different tiers of government with regard to their roles. For example, while it is envisaged that provincial and local government will determine the strategic direction of support at local and provincial level, the Seda will need to be responsible for the institutional delivery of this support in partnership with all stakeholders. This will ensure that there is a common, successful and accountable delivery framework across the country, whilst taking provincial and local strategies and needs into account.

This alignment is critical to us if we want to achieve our goals and utilise our resources for maximum benefit to the small business community. Substantial resources are allocated to small business support by the three tiers of government and by acting in concert and avoiding duplication, it is possible for all of us to achieve the desired and the required impact.

This co-operative approach to delivery of small business support required backing from a range of role-players in the sector. This has seen us as a department embarking on an extensive consultation process in the formulation of this new institution. We have had consultations with a wide range of stakeholders, including the National Treasury, the Department of Provincial and Local Government, MECs and provincial governments, the Board of Ntsika, the Board of Trustees of Namac, all general managers of provincial Manufacturing Advisory Centres, as well as a range of small enterprises and service providers in the different provinces. Proposals made by Cosatu and Chamsa during the public hearings were also incorporated in the final draft of the Bill.

To ensure that this agency is accountable to and in contact with all stakeholders and beneficiaries, the Bill requires that the board hold consultative meetings with beneficiaries, provincial representatives and other relevant stakeholders at least once a year to discuss the functions and performance of the agency. To oversee the functioning of the institution and ensure that it remains aligned with government priorities, a board of directors will be appointed by the Minister of Trade and Industry.

I would like to thank the hon members of the select and portfolio committees for their inputs and for improving this legislation, and I look forward to all of you in the House supporting this Bill. I thank you. [Applause.]

Ms M P THEMBA: Chairperson and hon members, the National Small Business Amendment Bill is aimed at reducing the duplication of institutions underpinning small business development.

The Small Enterprise Development Agency, a national agency, will be established as a juristic person in terms of the Bill. It will incorporate the Ntsika Enterprises Promotion Agency and the National Manufacturing Advisory Centre Trust, Namac.

It is very important that we illustrate the context of this new legislation. When we enacted the National Small Business Act, we acknowledged that the objectives of the Ntsika Enterprises Promotion Agency were to formulate and co-ordinate a national programme of policy research concerning small businesses; to facilitate the strengthening of small business service providers; to channel finance to small business providers to deliver accredited services; and to facilitate increased demand size interventions.

The establishment of a new entity, which will be responsible for implementing the government’s 2004-2014 small, medium and micro enterprise strategy, will be in the public interest and will significantly advance the critical objectives of small enterprise development. The primary aim of the establishment of the new entity is to increase the capacity of government to deliver support services to small enterprises.

The Bill notes in its memorandum that the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research and the National Productivity Institute established Namac to focus on small and medium enterprises in the manufacturing sector with similar objectives to Ntsika, which aimed to co-ordinate the national programme of policy research and collection of information concerning small businesses.

The economy we have today is fundamentally and irreversibly different to that which we inherited in 1994. Our restructured economy means that higher growth rates can be attained. This is very important for small business development, as growth is essential for a vibrant small business sector.

The active role adopted by the state through a set of macroeconomic and microeconomic reforms was instrumental in bringing about economic restructuring. The microeconomic reform strategy was adopted in 2001 and seeks to make a difference in six key performance areas: An increase in economic growth; an increase in competitiveness at all levels, that is at country, industry and enterprise levels; an increase in employment, small business development, black economic empowerment, and geographic equity.

During the past decade awareness about the importance of small, medium and micro enterprises for employment, economic growth and the transformation of the economy has increased dramatically. This has resulted in a number of new programmes to support small businesses in both the public and private sectors. As small businesses are more vulnerable, this cannot be achieved by government alone. This needs active and effective business associations in all our towns and districts to provide the much-needed peer support.

While government efforts over the past 10 years have focused on design and delivery of development services to the small business sector, it is clear that more attention should be given to understanding the small business sector better.

A range of government, nongovernment and academic institutions as well as international organisations need to conduct research on small business in South Africa.

As I indicated earlier, in the past 10 years we have seen a proliferation of small business support programmes under different government institutions as part of the unfolding of the implementation of the 1995 White Paper. The range of institutions and the number of programmes on offer can easily confuse entrepreneurs in need of business development services. In order to address this, this Bill aims to pull together all institutions with similar objectives under a single focal point.

The concept of a small enterprise development agency has been refined to respond to current experiences and institutional arrangements and to recognise the role of local government in the implementation of small business support strategies. The primary role of this agency is to ensure that business development services are accessible and visible to all South African entrepreneurs. While the government encourages the diversity of support programmes and agencies, it upholds its responsibility to ensure the coherence and effectiveness of small business support.

At the heart of globalisation is the massive extension of markets owing to the reduction of transport costs and the introduction of technological changes, coupled with policy measures aimed at reducing barriers which hamper the movement of goods and capital.

Today small businesses on the African continent are experiencing a more open economy in which foreign competition is closely linked to the national economy. This exposure to world competition can lead to the marginalisation of small businesses and ultimately business failure. On the other hand, this could mean opportunities for more business and increased turnover for those small businesses that are well prepared to face these markets.

Sengephetsa nje, manene nemanenekati, malunga lahloniphekile, ngitawutsandza kukhutsata onkhe emacembu etembusave kutsi asebentise lenkhulumomphikiswano njengelitfuba lekucubungula kahle ngebunono belikati nekubeka litje emizameni yetfu yekusekela bemabhizinisi lamancane; nekutsi sitsatse tintfo tekusetjentiswa nemicondvo leseyemukelekile yaletigatjana talama-small, medium … [Kuhlaba lulwimi.] (Translation of Siswati paragraph follows.)

[In conclusion, ladies and gentlemen, hon members, I would like to encourage all political parties to use this debate as a platform to thoroughly interrogate and benchmark our approaches to support, and to take all those services and the acceptable segmented ideas of the small, medium …]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Order! Your time has not expired as you still have half a minute, but there is no interpretation. Could the interpreter please interpret? Just finish up, hon member. [Interjections.]

Mk M P THEMBA: Ngiyabonga, Mgcinisihlalo. [Tandla.] [Thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Some people have missed part of that speech because of the bad interpretation. Can we ask our interpreters to be right on the spot with interpretations, please?

Ms S S CHEN: Hon Deputy Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister, hon members, ladies and gentlemen, promoting small, medium and micro enterprises, also known as SMMEs, in the South African economy is a major priority for the government.

With regard to this particular focus, the existing National Small Business Act has not adequately served those in the public who wanted to start their own businesses. In essence, the new amendment provides for the establishment of a single, nonfinancial small enterprise development agency. By doing this, Ntsika and Namac - the National Manufacturing Advisory Centre Trust – have been merged into one organisation that will have centralised control over the function of supporting and developing small, medium and micro enterprises without a duplication of responsibilities and functions.

This new agency is required by the Bill to design and implement small enterprise development support programmes in order to facilitate the promotion of entrepreneurship. This specific emphasis on entrepreneurship has been neglected in the existing Act. By introducing this focus into the new Bill, current SMME development progress will be greatly improved. This amendment will support the DA’s policy of empowering SMMEs by establishing business support centres. [Interjections.]

We hope that the new Small Enterprise Development Agency, Seda, will in the future establish such business support centres in disadvantaged areas so that they are easily accessible to as many people as possible. We also propose that these centres provide training, market information and/or business networks to interested parties seeking assistance. Training in critical business skills such as record keeping, financial management and marketing strategy are also important services that need to be provided.

Although the Bill is welcomed and supported by the DA, it can be enhanced by the clarification of specific details with regard to the mechanisms, vehicles, channels and strategies for delivering support programmes to prospective entrepreneurs. This will greatly increase the effectiveness of the Bill and provide the intended impact in its implementation. In conclusion, the DA fully supports this Bill. “Sheshe.” [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Order! Order! I understood everything except the “sheshe”. [Laughter.]

Mr K SINCLAIR: Hon Deputy Chairperson and hon Minister, when I walked to the House this afternoon and saw that it was raining, I wondered why and thought the reason couldn’t be because we were going to pass this Bill this afternoon. When I got to the House I realised that it was raining because the national organiser of the DA, the hon Shelley Loe, was attending the sitting today. [Laughter.] So maybe that is why it was raining.

The national agency Seda will be established as a juristic person in terms of the Bill. It will incorporate Ntsika Enterprises Promotion Agency and Namac. The national Minister, Minister Mpahlwa, recently said that he believed that the establishment of a new entity that would be responsible for implementing the government’s 2004 - 2014 small, medium and micro enterprise strategy would be in the public interest and would significantly advance the critical objectives of small enterprise development.

I think the critical question that we must ask is: What are the benefits of this Bill? Firstly, it will reduce the cost of service delivery. Secondly, it will give the Department of Trade and Industry leverage in development with partners in the service delivery chain. Thirdly, it will eliminate duplication in service delivery, and I think that if we can just achieve a reduction in duplication then this Bill would serve its purpose. Fourthly, it will improve access by establishing access points in local communities. Fifthly, it will improve outreach by establishing access points in areas close to small enterprises. Lastly, it will improve the impact through the establishment of service delivery networks made up of all relevant stakeholders.

So, in essence, this Bill serves as an instrument in addressing one of the most important issues that we must deal with and that is to close the gap between the first and second economy of this country. As an instrument of just that, the NNP supports this Bill. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr M J SIBIYA: Hon Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister, departmental officials

• if they happen to be here - colleagues, comrades, ladies and gentlemen, I think it would put us in good stead to first ask the question: Why this Bill now?

As it has already been stated, the adoption of the Bill will amend the National Small Business Act of 1996, and thereby repeal all provisions pertaining to Ntsika Enterprises Promotion Agency, subsequent to which the ground will have been levelled for the establishment of the Small Enterprise Development Agency, Seda.

The Bill envisages the agency to be managed and controlled by a board consisting of at least seven members, or at the most, fifteen members. The board members will have to be appointed by the Minister with Cabinet’s approval. The Minister will also appoint the chief executive officer based on the recommendation by the board. Such a CEO will hold the office for five years, while the board itself will have a three-year term of office.

The agency will have the powers subject to the Act: Firstly, to institute and conduct civil proceedings in all matters relating to its functions. Secondly, to do all things necessary and convenient to be done for or in connection with the performance of its functions, including the power to enter into a contract; to acquire, hold and dispose of assets; to let or hire plant machinery, equipment or goods of the agency, if and when necessary; and to invest money not immediately required for the purposes of the agency.

You will be aware that the already mentioned functions of the agency are specific, but there are other functions, which in broader terms include: Firstly, to implement government policy for small enterprise development. Secondly, to design, develop and implement small enterprise support programmes through accessing nonfinancial resources and markets, as well as fostering partnerships and developing a service delivery network. Thirdly, to design and implement a standard and common national delivery network that must uniformly apply throughout our country in respect of small enterprise development, integrating all government funded small enterprise support agencies across all spheres of our government, and to establish provincial structures to ensure the effective implementation of its functions.

All having been said and done, the intended agency is a well thought out strategy in the government’s repertoire to deal with the scourge of poverty, to speed up service delivery and to create jobs. It is for this reason, and this one only, that the ANC unreservedly supports the Bill. I therefore call on this House to follow suit for the sake of our people. Thank you. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: Deputy Chairperson, I would like to thank all the hon members for supporting this Bill. I agree with most of what has been said by the hon members, starting with Ms Themba, that indeed the economy today is completely different to the economy that we inherited in 1994. It requires that government now and again reviews its policies and implementation mechanisms, and actually change them where they are not having the desired effect. That is the reason we are going to pass this legislation today.

Ms Chen raised an issue whilst supporting the Bill. She said that she hoped that this agency would expand outreach to those areas that were previously marginalised. It is the intention of this agency to do just that, according to the mandate that it has been given. But you should also remember that the agency is not expected to start from scratch. Ntsika had over 80 local business service centres. Namac also had several institutions as well as service providers, that they worked with. It is expected that the agency is actually going to utilise those institutions. Of course, where there are no existing institutions, it is expected to set those up and to train people. It has to have service providers spread across the whole of South Africa.

I couldn’t agree more with Mr Sinclair when he stated the benefits that will come from passing this legislation. And Mr Sibiya asked: Why this Bill now? The answer is obvious. You stated it yourself. But the most important thing is that we didn’t just get up one morning as a department and decided we don’t want Ntsika and Namac anymore.

It was the seven years of experience with regard to the implementation of the strategy that supports small and medium enterprises that has taught us that the hands-off approach that Ntsika used was actually not benefiting the people that were targeted by our legislation. Hence, we have come up now with this, so that there is both visibility and access to this agency.

Of course, hon members should be the eyes and ears of the department, and actually speak out when this agency is not doing what it was established to do. I thank all of you for supporting this Bill. Thank you. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Before I go to voting on the question, I have been made to understand that the Protocol to the African Charter on Human and People’s Rights on the Rights of Women in Africa has been distributed to the members. So, I hope you do have those copies.

That concludes the debate. I shall now put the question, and that is that the Bill be agreed to. In accordance with Rule 63, I shall first allow political parties to make their declaration of vote, if they so wish. Are there any parties that wish to do so? We shall now proceed to the voting. Those in favour say “Aye”.

Hon MEMBERS: Aye!

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): All those against say “No”. All parties have voted in favour.

Debate concluded.

Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

                  PETROLEUM PRODUCTS AMENDMENT BILL


            (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)

Mr D G MKONO: Chairperson, I would like to start by congratulating whoever is responsible for the seating arrangements in this House, especially for putting Ms Terblanche right at the far end over there. They should make sure that she is in the gallery the next time.

Chairperson and hon members, as set out in the memorandum of objectives, the objectives of the Petroleum Products Amendment Bill, which I am presenting before this House today, is to substitute or delete certain conditions regarding the purchase and sale of petroleum products manufactured from coal, natural gas or vegetable matter and authorises the Minister of Minerals and Energy to make regulations in this regard. It also makes amendment to the licensing system, as envisaged in the principal Act.

The principal Act, Act 58 of 2003, was approved by Parliament in September 2004 after an intensive debate and discussion with stakeholders. This principal Act was to replace the outdated Petroleum Products Act of 1997 and to bring it in line with the current socio-political and economic dynamics in the liquid fuel industry. The changes in the Petroleum Products Act were influenced by a number of challenges facing the liquid fuel industry in South Africa. This includes the Sasol Agreement coming to an end which resulted in uncertainty and new negotiations. The Ministry and the Department were also requested to intervene in the disputes between retailers and major oil companies as a result of continued in fighting. Hence a separate mechanism to settle those disputes has to be found.

Since the retail margin is small, more service stations will mean lesser margins. This is likely to lead to the closure of many retail sites, resulting in product shortages, job losses and even higher prices in areas that cannot afford those areas. We need a stable and continued supply of quality products nationwide. The recent mass closure of rural service stations and the proliferation of urban sites will not only result in product shortages in rural areas, but will put the whole network at risk through poor economic investments that are being made in urban areas. The principal Act was to address these challenges. In dealing specifically with the proliferation, the solution was to limit the number of service stations while accommodating new players in the retail market through licensing regulations to be introduced by the Minister. The principal Act was to give effect to the policy goal of achieving equilibrium in the required number of service stations within a period of 10 years. However, the unintended consequence of this Act would have been in the postponement rather than the phasing in of the reduction in the number of service stations, when the industry is eventually regulated.

The purpose of this Bill is to guard against this unintended consequence. It is therefore proposed that a more market-orientated approach be followed by specifically enabling the Minister to introduce regulations to curb the excess of the market, should this be necessary, by amending section 2(b), 2(e), subsection 3 and by deleting section 2 (b)(6) in the Bill. It is meant to allow the market to regulate itself. It is to make sure that the Minister is not bogged down by the power play between oil companies who want their products to be given preference. Therefore, in terms of the deleted section, the licensee must only purchase or sell products that are manufactured from coal, natural gas or vegetable matter, giving preference to products manufactured by Sasol - which is not acceptable. This particular section is replaced by an empowerment regulation under section 12(c).

The amendment of section 2(e)(iii) is mainly to give flexibility to the Minister, in making regulations in the allocation of licences by changing “must” to “may”. If the use of the word “may” is continued, it might have the unintended consequence of restricting the Minister and creating overregulation of the industry. What this amendment does is to allow the building of new service stations in which the market determines the entry. At the same time, the Minister has the ability to restrict the opening of new service stations of a particular size. By deleting subsection 3(f) of clause 2(e) and putting in section 12(c)is to make sure that the sale, purchase, as well as supply of petroleum products manufactured from coal, natural gas and vegetable matter does not fall under the restriction of 10 years, from the date of commencement of this regulation, as is the case with clause 2(e). These products have to be used beyond 10 years after the commencement of the regulation. The use of biodiesel from vegetable matter, for example, can be used as a possible alternative to crude oil in the future.

Let me point out that the drafting of this Bill was informed by government’s imperatives, which are in line with the objectives of the principal Act and these include: Promoting an efficient manufacturing, wholesale and retail petroleum industry; facilitating an environment conducive to the efficient and commercially justifiable investment; facilitating the creation of employment opportunities and the development of small industries in the petroleum products industry at competitive prices; and promoting access to affordable petroleum products by low income consumers for household use. These are in line with what the committee wants to see happening in the liquid fuel industry.

Since the Bill does not introduce new issues and it contains only technical amendments to the principal Act, there was not much discussion in the committee. We unanimously supported the new amendments. As a committee we agree with the principal of marginalized reparations of the liquid industry, which this Bill supports. We would like to see opportunities in the retail sector opening up but at the same time this should be controlled to ensure that the proliferation of service stations is managed. There has to be a balance between job creation and the sustainability of those jobs. We cannot allow a situation where a service station opens and within six months it is closed down because there are so many service stations around to compete with.

In view of the above exposition I would like to, on behalf of the committee, recommend that this august House adopts this very important Bill. I thank you. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Bill, subject to proposed amendments, agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

                    WATER SERVICES AMENDMENT BILL


            (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)

Ms B N DLULANE: Chairperson, I thought you would protect me from the harassment by male members. [Laughter.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): You are well protected. They say you are looking very bright. [Laughter.]

Ms B N DLULANE: Oh, I was not aware that they are appreciating my gwangquza [headgear].

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): They really appreciate it. You may proceed, hon member.

Ms B N DLULANE: Deputy Chairperson, I am presenting this Water Services Amendment Bill on behalf of the select committee. This Bill aims to amend the Water Services Act, Act 108 of 1997. The Bill aims to enable water boards to perform activities outside the borders of the Republic of South Africa. This amendment seeks to empower water boards to act extraterritorially.

Before a water board is granted permission to operate the Minister of Water Affairs and Forestry, in consultation with the Minister of Finance, the Minister of Public Enterprises and the Minister of Trade and Industry, must, by notice in the Government Gazette, determine the nature of the activities that the water board may perform outside the Republic of South Africa; the countries in which such activities may be performed; and the maximum amount of capital that a water board may take out of the Republic of South Africa to perform such activities.

The select committee supports Nepad as a product of Africans. The involvement of other countries of Southern Africa as well as the developed world and the private sector is crucial in assisting in the provision of both financial and technical resources for the success of Nepad.

The select committee further sees this Bill as expanding the knowledge this country has in relation to the rest of the African continent. We therefore commend this Bill as the right step in the intervention of building partnership - as Mr Shiceka’s committee knows, who very recently went to our respective provincial legislatures and municipalities where we were looking at water as a very important tool.

We know that without water and sanitation, the cholera disease will escalate if we cannot authorise these boards to assist our municipalities. This Bill is assisting them to seek opportunities and present their business plans so that they may even have an entry outside this country. Thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

            CONSIDERATION OF REVENUE LAWS AMENDMENT BILL

            (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)

Mr M C GOEIEMAN: Chairperson, it is my pleasure to share with you a few highlights of the Revenue Laws Amendment Bill of 2004, currently before this House.

The Revenue Laws Amendment Bill gives effect to the main tax proposals announced on budget day in February this year. The Bill allows for the tax- free treatment of shares acquired by employees in terms of the broad-based employee share plan.

The current law stipulates that when an employee acquires shares from an employer at less than market value, this is viewed as receipt of a taxable fringe benefit. To demonstrate South Africa’s role as a regional player, the Bill before this House exempts all foreign residents, including those from Namibia, Swaziland and Lesotho, from paying tax on South African interest-bearing investments. This exemption is to attract portfolio investments and is subject to two stringent requirements.

In addition, the Bill does the following: It eliminates the tax preference for JSE securities and bond exchanges; it revisits the VAT treatment of grants paid by public and local authorities. A major portion of supplies made by national and provincial departments are outside the scope of VAT, which means that VAT is not charged on the goods and services supplied by government to the public; it introduces a withholding regime when a South African resident or a nonresident purchases immovable property from a nonresident; and it reduces the use of adhesive stamps in order to allow payment of stamp duty by electronic means.

The Revenue Laws Amendment Bill is a demonstration of our goal to achieve equity and to enhance growth. The Select Committee on Finance recommends that the NCOP adopts this section 77 Bill. I thank you. [Applause.]

Debate concluded. Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

                 SECOND REVENUE LAWS AMENDMENT BILL


            (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)

Mr M C GOEIEMAN: Chairperson, the Second Revenue Laws Amendment Bill of 2004 refers in the main to the administrative amendments of our tax regime. These amendments also give effect to the main tax proposals announced on budget day.

Highlights of the Second Revenue Laws Amendment Bill are as follows: It prescribes further requirements for the estate agent in respect of the declaration to be given; provides for a penalty where the estate agent fails to comply with the reporting requirements; it introduces provisions to deal with offences in respect of the evasion duty; it regulates the provisions relating to the publication of names of offenders; it requires that a taxpayer informs the commissioner of any change of the taxpayer’s address - this amendment requires that if a person’s address which is normally used by the South African Revenue Service for correspondence with that person changes, that the person must inform Sars within 60 days of the new address. Failure to comply with this requirement is an offence, which is punishable with a fine or imprisonment for a period not exceeding 24 months; it provides for the registration of tax practitioners - this does not include persons who provide advise without receiving a reward; it establishes an advanced tax ruling system; it sets out basic rules regarding the application process, fees, exclusion, refusal and publication of rulings.

Chairperson, with these few remarks the Select Committee on Finance recommends that the NCOP adopts this section 77 Bill. Ke a leboga. [Thank you.] [Applause.]

Debate concluded. Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

 CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE - TRENDS IN
           INTERGOVERNMENTAL FINANCES: 2000/01 TO 2006/07

Mr T RALANE: Deputy Chair and Minister, with reference to the public hearings on the trends in intergovernmental finances hosted by the Select Committee on Finance and other affected select committees, I wish to share the following. Firstly, a visible lack of seriousness was displayed by provinces when attending public hearings - the notable exception was the Eastern Cape. Secondly, the national and provincial departments, when participating in the public hearings, tend to utilise these hearings as a platform to lobby for additional financial resources from National Treasury. Provinces, in a sense, plead poverty when they appear before the committees. Thirdly, the provinces, when discussing expenditure trends, seldom give an indication of the impact on provincial expenditure. This also raises the serious concern relating to the quality of provincial expenditure.

Fourthly, there was a strongly held view by committee members that data provided to National Treasury and provincial treasuries is not absolutely reliable. Often during public hearings provinces dispute data recorded in the review. A noteworthy example is the number of female-headed households who benefit from land reforms.

Lastly, the select committees in the NCOP should make an earnest appeal to their counterparts in the provinces, the MECs and municipalities to pay serious attention to the process of public hearings and the need to be vigilant in monitoring the expenditure trends in provinces and municipalities.

With these few remarks the Select Committee on Finance recommends that the House adopt the select committee’s report on expenditure trends. Thank you. [Applause.]

Ms F NYANDA: Madam Chair, Minister and hon members, with reference to the debate on the intergovernmental fiscal review, my brief is to make appropriate reference to local government. Given that the local government system is more than three years old, and taking into account the importance of the process of transformation, municipalities have progressed considerably in establishing a single administration. One metro municipality, for example, had no fewer than 50 racially based local authorities before 1996, and seven authorities until December 2000. Today the same metropolitan area has a single administration. Another new metro municipality has been restructured from 11 administrations in what was a mammoth task. Ultimately the test of the new system of local government is the extent to which it leads to substantial improvement in service delivery and development. In total, municipal budgets has nearly doubled over the past eight years. Their budgets increased by 15,3% during the previous financial year ending in 2004.

The Select Committee on Finance wishes to give recognition to those achievements, but does not want to minimise the key challenges facing the sphere of local government. The objective of exorcising apartheid trends has not been completely achieved. The sphere of local government consequently continues with the task of delivering the mandate of the new democratic South Africa.

Census 2001 demonstrates the increased immigration into urban municipalities. Poor families have settled in informal settlements on the threshold of municipalities, thereby presenting the municipalities with the huge challenge of developing sustainable settlements.

Financial issues certainly constitute the biggest challenge confronting municipalities. Quite obviously, there is a need for a new financial system for local government. It is hoped that a review of the financial fiscal framework will be ready for the 2005 Budget.

Among the issues being reviewed are the equitable share formula, RSCs, levies, capacity-building grants, property rates and other additional sources of revenue for municipalities. The new Municipal Property Rates Act will assist municipalities in broadening their rates base and to provide for national rules regarding valuation and appeals.

Previously various valuation methods were used. The Act now requires valuation to be based on the market value of property, which is the land plus improvement. Municipalities are required to monitor the impact of the new valuation system on the different sectors in order to avoid an excessive increase in rates.

In addition, municipalities have to do more to collect the debts owed to them by those who can afford to pay, and also raise their own revenue. Municipalities can certainly do more to raise the money owed to them, especially from government departments and civil servants. The 2004 adjustments allocated R559 million to settle long-outstanding claims from rates owed to certain municipalities. This demonstrates the positive role of the National Treasurer in ensuring that national and provincial governments pay the moneys they owe to municipalities.

While most municipalities are aware of the importance of local economic development, widely known as LEDs, there is a perception that only some municipalities are pursuing LEDs vigorously enough. LEDs should concur with municipality IDPs. Fundamentally, local economic developments are processes based on local initiative and driven by local stakeholders. They involve identifying and ensuring resources, ideas and skills and stimulate economic growth and development. There is no single approach to LEDs that work in every local area. Each area is unique and must develop a LED-strategy that is specific to the local context.

In terms of the Constitution, housing is a concurrent function between national and provincial governments, with no role for local government. Provinces promote, co-ordinate and implement housing programmes within the ambit of the national housing policy; and they approve housing subsidies and projects while the review makes extensive reference to the process, procedures and requirement of municipalities to obtain accreditation and procedure.

Regarding the requirement that municipalities must obtain accreditation, the NCOP was informed at a public hearing that to date only one municipality has applied for accreditation status. The application is currently being processed.

My main concern is that the beneficiaries of the subsidised housing are often not residents living in close proximity of the housing development project. Often beneficiaries come from other areas, and this causes much local discontent. The Mbombela municipality in Mpumalanga serves as an example. The reason given by the official at the national Department of Water Affairs and Forestry is that a huge time - lag exists between the compilation of the list for housing beneficiaries and the actual delivery of houses. Hence, many of the original applicants for houses have moved out of the area by the time the houses are delivered.

Municipalities face enormous challenges in the delivery of public services and infrastructure. A huge backlog remains. To ensure that limited financial resources are used appropriately, municipalities need to do the following: They must exercise true accountability and oversight on their functions and alignment on budget reporting systems to IDPs. The IDPs have to be of a certain quality and in harmony with provincial and national policy priorities. For significant improvement in service delivery the department…[Time expired.][Applause.]

Mr M O ROBERTSON: Chair of Chairs and hon members, I would like to make a request that when we come back next year we have a higher podium. [Interjections.] [Laughter.] It’s rather difficult at times.

The agricultural sector is one of the most important sectors in the ANC government’s strategy to fight poverty and create work so that we can ensure a better life for all South Africans. Land is not only a symbol of empowerment or simply a means through which people get ownership of the country. Agriculture is the backbone of a nation. It ensures a nation’s food security and, at the same time, creates employment for many and subsistence for their families.

This sector comprises a dominant commercial farming segment, and a substantially small subsistence and emerging farmer segment. The latter is particularly important, because of its contribution to poverty reduction and job creation in the rural areas.

The budget of the national Department of Agriculture constitutes approximately 22% of the combined national and provincial agriculture budgets in 2004-05, which is a decline from the more than 27% in 2003-04. This reflects the increase in funding to provinces for the implementation of agricultural programmes, specifically farmer-support activities.

National spending on agriculture is set to decline from R1,2 billion in 2003-04 to R1,1 billion in 2004-05, and subsequently increase over the outer years of the MTEF to R1,3 billion in 2006-07, reflecting an average growth of 2,4% over the MTEF. Expenditure between 2001-02 and 2003-04 has been increased by the allocation of R222 million - this works out at approximately R85 million a year - for flood relief over the three years following the floods of 1999-2000.

Provincial budgets continue to grow from 2003-04 levels over the MTEF, rising from 16,9% to R3,7 billion in 2004-05, and are expected to rise by an annual average of 6,1% over the two outer years, reaching R4,2 billion in 2006-07. Included in the provincial budgets are transfers in the form of new conditional grants from the national department for the implementation of the comprehensive agricultural support programme. These transfers amount to R200 million in 2004-05, rising to R300 million in 2006-07, and will target emerging farmers who need to produce for the market rather than those who produce only in terms of food security for themselves.

The agricultural sector was also prioritised in the allocation of the provincial infrastructure grant in order to help address the backlogs in agriculture infrastructure. The conditional grant allocated to the land care programme increased from R18,1 million in 2000-01 to an expected R44,5 million in 2006-07, an annual average increase of 16,3% over the seven-year period.

Land care projects are directed at rural communities to promote the sustainable use and management of natural resources and to support infrastructure development. They aim to encourage communities to increase productivity in order to support food security and job creation. Some of the themes within the land care programme include water care, soil care, veld care and the junior land care programme.

Over the past decade policy has shifted from supporting the established commercial farming sector to developing and sustaining emergent and historically disadvantaged farmers in order to create a new commercial farming sector. This part of the budget – 46,5% of the total provincial expenditure in 2002-03 - continues to be for farmer support and development, which provides extension services, training and food security projects. Expenditure on this programme is set to increase from R1, 5 billion in 2003-04 to R1, 8 billion in 2006-07, which is an annual average increase of 7,4%.

I must also add that our President, Mr Thabo Mbeki, has been taking part in very serious discussions with the World Trade Organisation to try to level the playing fields inasmuch as subsidies from overseas countries are lowered or discontinued.

I would just like to explain this. The subsidies that Europe and the rest of the Western world receive make it very difficult for the South African farmer to compete in the same market. I know that in England and France the beef subsidy and the dairy subsidy stand at about 80%, whereas our farmers don’t get a subsidy at all. So we are at a big disadvantage, and we appreciate what our President is trying to do in that regard.

Regarding the Land Affairs budget, the implementation of the land reform programme is funded through the Vote of the Department of Land Affairs. The department’s budget includes the allocation for funding the redistribution and restitution programmes. Expenditure on transfers to beneficiaries in the form of land redistribution grants has increased sharply from R156, 6 million in 2000-01 to an expected R614, 4 million in 2006-07, an annual average increase of 25,6%. The allocation to the restitution programme has increased, rising from R265, 1 million in 2000-01 to an expected R1, 4 billion in 2006-07.

Hon members, in conclusion - and my conclusion fits in with my introduction – I want to give you an idea of how important agriculture is to creating employment in our country. According to the September 2003 Labour Force Survey, formal agriculture provides employment, including seasonal and contract employment, for about 832 000 farmworkers, with a further 350 000 employed in subsistence or small-scale agriculture, accordingly totalling 10,3% of employment in South Africa.

The agricultural industry is the second biggest industry in terms of informal sector employment. The national Department of Agriculture indirectly and directly supplies work to 6 million people for their livelihood. I thank you, Chair. [Applause.]

Ms D ROBINSON: Hon Chair of Chairs, hon members and hon Minister, the Trends in Intergovernmental Finances, which accounts for public expenditure for the period 2000-07, has highlighted an alarming trend in expenditure on social grants. By 2007, grants are projected to rise to 3,4% of the GDP, effectively eliminating the benefit of at least one full year of vital economic growth.

To ensure that our country capitalises on its potential, it is essential that welfare does not continue to crowd out education, which forms an essential base for growth, providing the poor with an effective opportunity to release themselves from the bonds of poverty. The government needs to urgently find means of addressing growing dependency.

A balance between fighting poverty through short-term measures such as social grants and ensuring broad-based development, and the creation of opportunities for the poor to participate in a South African economy needs to be found. As has been noted by Minister Manuel, there has been rapid growth and spending on disability grant beneficiaries, increasing from R4 billion in 2000 to R10, 2 billion this year. This alarming increase could put the provinces’ ability to fund education and the infrastructure development at risk.

Already the unexpected increase in grants is beginning to crowd out other areas of social delivery, particularly, health and education. Whilst education continues to represent the greatest portion of the provincial budget, its share declined from 39,6% in 2000-01 to 36,5% this year, and it is projected to fall further to only 33,3% in 2006-07. Similarly, health will fall from 23,5% to 21,4% in the same period. These are worrying trends. Despite the decline in education and health expenditure, as a proportion of total expenditure, the level of real spending on both these areas is projected to increase.

The total education spending will grow by 1,6% in real terms, from the 2003- 04 period, and provincial health budgets are projected to grow at a rate of 3,3 in 2006-07. The health budget includes a conditional grant of R3, 5 billion to be spent on HIV and Aids programmes in the next three years. According to the Treasury, South Africa is currently the developing world’s biggest welfare economy, providing 17% of the population with direct income support. But our welfare state is not only large, it is growing.

The social development spending increased to 28% of the provincial spending in 2006-07, raising the social security expenditure to more than 3% of the GDP. I would therefore like to echo warnings expressed about the sustainability of increases in the social development spending beyond 2007, particularly when one considers that seven out of nine provinces exceeded their welfare budgets last year, despite the provision of additional funds by the Treasury during the financial year.

The phasing in of child support grants to children up to the age of 14 years was expected to result in major increases in grant spending. However, the figures indicate that growth was higher than anticipated. Another concern is the growth in disability beneficiaries. Officials cite a number of possible reasons for this dramatic increase. These include fraud and corruption amongst provincial officials, and the removal of the bureaucratic check in the grant process, which may have resulted in the deficiency in the administrative controls and procedures, which provide a check on the eligibility of beneficiaries.

An additional issue is the debate at Cabinet level on the definition of disability, and who should qualify for a grant. In particular, there is the question on whether those suffering from full-blown Aids are entitled to disability grants, as they are already receiving antiretroviral treatment. The Aids pandemic has caused significant demographic changes, which have increased the number of individuals who depend on grants for their survival.

With the grant spending expected to increase by 50% by 2006-07, we fully support government’s investigation into the reasons for the rapid increase in the number of grant beneficiaries. In order to endure a sustainable social security system, questions regarding which individuals are entitled to payment need to be resolved. Furthermore, measures need to be adopted to ensure that only those individuals entitled to grants are paid.

The Trends in Intergovernmental Finances Report has also highlighted a positive trend in the composition of the total expenditure on health and education at provincial level. In both the education and health sectors, there has been an increase in capital spending as a percentage of total expenditure. Capital expenditure on education is aimed predominantly at reducing the classroom backlog. In addition, there has been a decline in the share of compensation of employee expenditure as a proportion of current expenditure.

Growth in non-personnel spending on health will ensure the provision of medical necessities to hospitals and clinics. Ultimately, these shifts in resource allocation should result in enhanced service delivery by the provincial governments. With regard to both health care and education spending, the gap between the poorer provinces such as the Northern Cape, and the more affluent provinces such as Gauteng, has narrowed significantly.

This represents a definite step in the right direction towards an equitable distribution of social spending to all provinces. Support must also be given to plans to revise the equitable share formula, which determines the level of funds provincial and local governments receive from the fiscus. These changes are expected to promote a more redistributive allocation of funds.

In order to effect a turnaround in the level of unemployment and to stimulate economic growth in our country, concerns regarding the magnitude of grant expenditure need to be addressed. In addition, the trend to contain the compensation of employee expenditure, and the strengthening of key complementary inputs, must be continued, so as to enhance service delivery. I thank you.

Mr Z S KOLWENI: Hon Chairperson, the Minister and my colleagues, thank you for allowing me to make this speech to present the Trends in Intergovernmental Finances. Despite significant improvements to the quality of life in the country, significant numbers of South Africans continue to live in conditions of poverty and vulnerability.

As a direct result of this pervasive poverty and unequal development, public health services cater for about 80% of the population. It is therefore very important that the funding allocated to this sector reflects government’s commitment to broaden access to quality health services to all sectors of the community.

There was a recovery of capital spending and on key inputs such as infrastructure and medicine, which are complementary to personnel. This is especially important in light of the fact that 27 large hospital upgrading and replacement projects have commenced or are in the process of being concluded. The Department of Health has indicated to the Select Committee on Finance that all nine provinces have submitted business plans in terms of conditions set out to qualify for the conditional grants for capital spending.

Unfortunately the quarterly reports on conditional grants for 2004-05 indicated that some provinces have experienced problems in spending the money allocated in terms of this grant. It is especially alarming that Limpopo and Mpumalanga are reporting difficulties in filling vacancies. The department and the provinces need to attend to this matter without delay.

Spending on primary health care has increased along with a rising workload. Treasury reports significant problems in determining the user demand for primary health services, especially as spending and costs of visits vary between the provinces. There are also difficulties in linking potential demand to uninsured people, as some uninsured people use private services. However, they still estimate that spending in this area will grow by, at least, 4% over the medium term.

Whilst it is admirable that the Department of Health can report successes in this area, eg 81% coverage in immunisation and high levels of antenatal clinic usage, it is advisable that the department devises a reliable method to determine demand in this sector. Spending on key programmes, such as HIV and Aids, has grown strongly and expanded to new areas of service delivery. Substantial services related to prevention and care, have been rolled out.

ARV treatment commenced in 2004 and is expected to expand rapidly over the next few years. Provinces also reported relative success with home-based and community-based care. But given the nature of the HIV/Aids situation in South Africa, it is unfortunate that not all provinces submitted their first quarterly reports on time, and this committee is looking forward to receiving the second, more comprehensive, quarterly report.

The increasing number of people infected and affected by HIV/Aids continues to place significant demands on public health services, and there are no easy solutions to this problem. The number of people dependent on the public health sector continues to increase as does expenses related to procuring adequate equipment for public health facilities.

Finally, these are challenges that affect all spheres of government and society. The period under review demonstrated that health budgets have stabilised, while spending on primary health care increased. This is coupled with a rising workload. The health budget increases annually by approximately 4,9% per year in the period under review. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr E M SOGONI: Thank you, hon Chair of Chairs, Minister of Finance, Minister Manuel, hon members, esteemed guests and our people at home. Before I get to my speech, I would like to address the issue that was raised by the hon member Robinson, which implied that government is inadvertently creating a welfare state.

I think that it’s true that the Minister did raise a concern about the increasing number of beneficiaries who are receiving grants. However, I think that it must be seen in the context as indicated by the President in the state of the nation address of 2003, that there is a number of people who are already receiving social grants and that the government would take measures to ensure that that was addressed, by implementing programmes that were agreed on at the Growth and Development Summit. It would, for instance, be programmes that would ensure that people are skilled in the education sector, that there are training authorities and that people are being trained through the Expanded Public Works Programme. This would reduce the number of people who are dependent on receiving social grants.

I think that, if you would remember, prior to the 1994 elections, there were 14 racially and sectoral based education departments, ranging from the so-called Christian department of education to the homelands departments of education and the bantu department of education in the urban areas. The funding for these departments varied from one extreme to another, where the Christian department of education, for instance, was looked after.

After 1994, we recognised that there was change and transformation in the education system in the country. The matric pass rate in 1994 was less than 48%, whilst the pass rate now has increased up more than 71% and even 90% in other provinces, and the endorsements have, at least, gone up.

Today, 10 years later, there is one Department of Education, founded on the principles of a developmental state. Provinces, which are responsible for the delivery of education, receive equitable shares and conditional grants from the national Department of Education.

The share for education, as the member has indicated, has flattened over the period due to other competitive demands, like social security, for instance. However, in the financial year 2003-04, the equitable share for education was R50 billion, which is expected to increase to more than R61 billion, over the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework. The bigger chunk of the resources still address the legacy of apartheid education referred to earlier.

The President committed the government to pushing back the frontiers of poverty by ensuring that no child should attend school under a tree by the end of this financial year. That is a tall order, if one takes Verwoerd’s apartheid policy into account, which means that very little resources were allocated to education infrastructure and development for certain racial groups. The government has since prioritised education infrastructure by investing, for instance, in the 2000-02 financial year, over R11 billion, which will grow to R13 billion by the year 2006-07.

The public hearings held by the finance committee revealed that a lot of development was happening in the provinces to reduce the backlog of classrooms and furniture. Provinces are now budgeting almost 15% for learners’ support material, from as low as about 7% in 1994, thus ensuring transformation in the delivery of education.

The number of children attending school has also increased as a result of programmes like the school feeding scheme, which ensures that the majority of kids enjoy nutritious food during the day at school. We must remember that democracy brought our people hope for the future, confidence and a sense of belonging.

As we celebrate 10 years of democracy, we still face many challenges in the education sector. However, there are much more to celebrate. When I grew up, for instance, I never saw a computer, let alone in a classroom, as it is today. Today, many schools in rural and urban areas are equipped with computers. Gauteng-on-Line, for example, proposes to install computers in all schools by the year 2009. The partnerships between the private sector and communities, on the one hand, and the private sector and the government, on the other hand, are beginning to show that, together, we can create work and fight poverty. We have all witnessed schools being built by the private sector and communities mushrooming all over the country, especially in the rural areas.

There are a higher number of learners today, who study and pass higher grade and senior grade mathematics and science. This is estimated to have grown at the rate of more than 50%, which is still a challenge. A lot is also being done in provinces like the Eastern Cape, which do not normally get positive publicity or do not get any publicity at all, of course.

Some provinces have prioritised girl-learners to study maths and science. We were informed that the results are really good, which is a positive development for our learners. As the Chairperson indicated the provinces took these hearings as a kind of forum for asking for more funds, the view was raised here that the budget was still based on the 1996 census. We hope that this will be addressed.

Obviously, out of many needs, we need to make hard choices and the vast majority of people feel we are on track. [Applause.] [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Order! That concludes the debate. Order, hon members! I shall now put the question, and the question is that the report be adopted. As the decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether all the heads of the delegations are present in the Chamber, to cast their votes. Are all the delegation heads present?

In accordance with Rule 71, I shall first allow provinces the opportunity to make their declarations of votes, if they so wish. We shall now proceed to voting on the question. I shall do this in alphabetical order per province. The delegation heads must indicate whether they vote in favour or against or whether they abstain from voting. Eastern Cape?

Ms B N DLULANE: Oos-Kaap steun. [Eastern Cape supports.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Free State?

Mrs S E MABE: Free State iyaxhasa. [Free state supports.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Gauteng?

Mr E M SOGONI: Ke ya rona, Modulasetulo. [We support, Chairperson.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: KwaZulu-Natal?

Mr Z C NTULI: KwaZulu-Natal iyavumelana. [KwaZulu-Natal supports.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Limpopo?

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Hapfumela, Mutshami wa xitulu. [We support, Chairperson.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Mpumalanga?

Ms M P THEMBA: Mpumalanga iyasekela. [Mpumalanga supports.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Northern Cape?

Ms P HOLLANDER: We support.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: North West?

Mr Z S KOLWENI: North West in favour.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Western Cape?

Mr N MACK: Wes-Kaap staan saam. [Western Cape supports.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: All provinces voted in favour. Therefore, I declare the report adopted. [Applause.]

Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE - MEDIUM-TERM BUDGET POLICY STATEMENT

Mr T RALANE: Chairperson and Minister, the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement is an attempt to change the status quo, that is unemployment, poverty and discrimination. The statement takes us up on another rung on the ladder of social and economic progress. It reinforces growth and investment for the period ahead.

Government aims to facilitate an increase in the rate of investment from 16% of the GDP at present to 25% by 2014. It aims to facilitate an increase in investment in the roads, rail and ports infrastructure; to provide more efficient communication; and to accelerate the pace of investment in housing as a priority. Against this backdrop, real economic growth is expected to rise to 2,9% in 2004, from 1,9% in 2003, and to an average of about 4% over the next three years. The consumer price index for inflation, widely known as the CPIX, is expected to average about 4,4% in 2004. It will remain within the target range of 3% to 6%.

South Africa is an importer of oil. Although the strong rand has dampened the domestic price impact of rising crude oil, it has contributed to a widening of the current account deficit. An inflationary effect of further high prices can also be anticipated. Oil imports comprise 10% of the total imports.

In early 2004, the South African Reserve Bank closed its forward foreign exchange book. This reduced the external source of macroeconomic vulnerability. South Africa has normalised its money market activities and increased its net in the national currency reserves.

Since 1995, South Africa has incrementally relaxed its foreign exchange control commensurate with progress in achieving macroeconomic stability and an improved balance of payments situation. To augment international competitiveness, the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement stipulates that exchange control limits on new outward foreign direct investments by South African companies are abolished. However, an application to the Reserve Bank is still required for monitoring purposes and for approval.

The following requirements are essential in order to reduce the rate of unemployment and poverty in the next decade. These are: the broadening of economic participation, reduction of the dual economy, reduction of regulatory burden on businesses, and investment in skills training and education.

The Select Committee on Finance appeals to the NCOP to adopt its report on the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement. I thank you. [Applause.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: That concludes the debate. I shall now put the question. The question is that the report be adopted. As the decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether all delegation heads are present in the Chamber to cast their provinces’ votes. Are all delegation heads present? In accordance with rule 71 I shall first allow provinces an opportunity to make their declarations of vote, if they so wish.

We shall now proceed to voting on the question. I shall do that in alphabetical order. Delegation heads should indicate to the Chair whether they vote in favour or against or whether they abstain from voting. Eastern Cape?

Mrs B N DLULANE: Re a e thekga. [We support.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Free State?

Mrs F S MABE: Ke ya rona. [We support.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Gauteng?

Mr E M SOGONI: Siyavuma. [We support.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: KwaZulu-Natal?

Mr Z E NTULI: In favour.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Limpopo?

Mr M J SIBIYA: We support it.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Mpumalanga?

Ms P THEMBA: Ons steun. [We support.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Northern Cape?

Ms P HOLLANDER: Ke ya rona. [We support.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: North West?

Mr Z S KOLWENI: Ke ya rona. [We support.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Western Cape?

Mr R N MACK: We support.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: All provinces voted in favour and I declare the Report adopted. [Applause.]

Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF JOINT BUDGET COMMITTEE - MEDIUM-TERM BUDGET POLICY STATEMENT

Mr B J MKHALIPHI: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister and colleagues, the Joint Budget Committee would like to state that the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement gives a brief reflection of the social and developmental policy priorities of our government while at the same time emphasising the limits of the state resources, particularly the national budget.

In the medium term, the mandate of this committee requires it to focus on the following: Firstly, the distribution of available funds against government’s policy priorities without, of course, trampling on the terrain of macro-economic and fiscal matters which are the responsibility of the finance committees of Parliament; and, secondly, the likely impact of expenditure allocations in the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement on the effectiveness and efficiency with which departments can respond to government’s stated policy priorities. The budget committee should focus on whether departments are indeed making the tough choices required, which often requires reprioritisation of expenditure to dovetail with current policy directives.

In line with this mandate, the Joint Budget Committee conducted hearings on the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement from 1 November to 30 November

1. The departments were grouped into five clusters. It was our observation that the clustering of departments does enhance interdepartmental co-ordination and co-operation. Most departments were well informed about what the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement entails. While a few of them could hardly resist the temptation to try to plead for more funds this was, of course, vehemently discouraged by the committee. My colleagues will elaborate on some of the departments’ inputs regarding the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement.

The Joint Budget Committee forwarded the following recommendations to this House: Firstly, that Parliament, through its committees, should enhance its effectiveness in monitoring the capacity of departments to implement progressive policies; secondly, that Parliament should explore ways and means to influence co-operation rather than unhealthy competition among the departments, particularly those departments that fall in the same cluster; and, lastly, that Parliament should strengthen its oversight system regarding expenditure and service delivery.

We present this report for your consideration, as mandated by this honourable House through the resolution passed on 30 June 2004. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr M C GOEIEMAN: Chair, municipalities are the first line of contact with the voting public and it is significant that the 2004 Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement makes reference to this very important sphere of government.

Local government received an additional allocation of R2, 8 billion in the financial year commencing on 1 April 2004. An amount of R2, 3 billion of the additional allocation will be transfers in the form of equitable shares, and the remaining R500 million will be added to the conditional Municipal Infrastructure Grant. The grant contributes to the capital budget of municipalities and provides for the reduction of backlogs in infrastructure development.

The increased allocation to local government will supplement spending on the free basic services such as water and sanitation, electricity and refuse removal, and acceleration of infrastructure investment in underserviced areas. The vertical division of nationally raised revenue gives consideration to the fiscal capacity and functions of local government since municipalities have the authority to impose taxes and user charges.

The equitable share component for local government will increase by 6,8% a year over the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, which ends in March 2008. With reference to provinces, national transfers to this sphere of government will increase by 4% per annum in real terms over the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework period.

Provinces will receive an additional R33, 5 billion in the financial year commencing 1 April 2005. The additional amount to provinces provides for the following: An increased uptake in social grants, higher social costs, and increased infrastructure, education and health spending. In addition, the provincial equitable share formula is adjusted to include the following: A shift in responsibility of social security grants, a larger education and health component, and new data for the 2001 census.

With these few introductory remarks on provincial and local government financing, the Joint Budget Committee recommends that this House adopt its report on the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement.

Ke leboga go menagane! [Legofi.] [Thank you very much!] [Applause.]

Ms D ROBINSON: Hon Chair of Chairs, hon Minister and hon members, the South African economy is poised for higher rates of economic growth in the context of a fairly benign global environment, with moderate inflation projections going forward. The projections of a GDP growth of 4% appear reasonable, yet there is potential for even higher growth. Despite the impact of external factors such as the price of crude oil and the downturn in the global economy, we maintain that it is government policy that has the greatest impact on our country’s ability to capitalise on its potential and realise its promise.

South Africa needs a strategy for growth and entrepreneurship and clear policies to support this vision. The strategy must include a commitment to ensure economic growth through infrastructure spending and job creation in order to effect a transfer from handouts to wages before welfare dependency becomes endemic.

According to statistics, 50% of our population live below the poverty line, which for a household of four means an income of less than R1 300 per month. The HSRC states that the poor are sinking deeper into poverty. According to the census figures, in 1996 it would have taken R56 billion to lift everyone out of poverty. By 2001, the poverty gap had risen to R81 billion. This trend needs to be reversed. We cannot allow our poor to become poorer. At the same time, one needs to acknowledge the trade-off between fighting poverty through cash transfers and through broad-based development and job creation.

Although government has attempted to relieve poverty through the payment of various types of grants, this is a far cry from creating jobs where people are given self-respect and a sense of dignity by being able to put food on the table for their families as a result of a good day’s work. South Africa is becoming the developing world’s biggest welfare economy, with its welfare spending approaching 4% of GDP. From R45,7 billion this year, it will increase to R64, 6 billion over the next three years.

Although hon Minister Manuel has so correctly said that we should avoid becoming a welfare state, he has been forced to compromise on other social and economic programmes that could underpin future economic growth. We welcome his decision to spend more on infrastructure such as hospitals and clinics to relieve the plight of the needy and the vulnerable and also on roads and transport, which will improve access and create business opportunities, particularly in rural areas.

Regrettably, education budgets have had to be cut to make provision for welfare grants such as foster care, child support and disability grants.

Mr Manuel has expressed his concern about the rapid increase in the uptake of such grants and we support his intentions to tighten the regulations and processes to ensure that corruption is rooted out in the allocation of grants. The provision for improving the salaries of social workers will also contribute to improving the systems and support structures, especially for the numerous child-headed households - victims of the scourge of HIV/Aids.

It is vital that education is not short-changed. We need to look at the long-term benefits to our country, to efficient governance of our towns and cities, to business and to the economy. Well-educated, skilled and competent people are needed to take South Africa forward and to bridge the economic divides. A good education is the difference between a life of comfort and a life of struggle. I must take the gap here and, once again, urge Minister Manuel and all members to push for more funding for libraries, which are resource centres, to support education in every town and village in order to equip our people for the challenges that lie ahead.

The DA would urge the Minister to reconsider the basic income grant as a means of enabling families to put food on the table. According to Robin Lee in last week’s Financial Mail…

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, I am rising on a point of order: I understand that the member should be speaking on behalf of the committee, not the party. I want to know whether the position she is adopting is that of the committee, because the name of the committee is not “DA”.

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon member, could you please consider speaking on behalf of the Joint Budget Committee.

Ms D ROBINSON: I was told that I could speak from this point of view, but I will reconsider. We would urge the Minister – that is “we” – to consider that according to Robin Lee - and he is not, as far as I know, a card- carrying member – in last week’s Financial Mail, the arguments for BIG are well known. It will increase choice rather than dependency. Even at a moderate level, it will have a measurable impact on the 50% of our population below the poverty line. It’s aimed at poverty itself, not the consequences of poverty and does not encourage people to disadvantage themselves to qualify for a grant - for instance by becoming pregnant in order to access a child grant. This type of grant would be easier to administer than the plethora of welfare programmes now available.

Poverty can be alleviated but job creation is the only way of eradicating poverty through the creation of an environment where the economy can flourish, where there is less bureaucracy and red tape; and where there is more flexibility in the labour market and yet protection against exploitation. We need to re-establish a work ethic for all South Africans. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr D J BOTHA: Hon Chair of Chairs, with reference to the debate on the intergovernmental fiscal review, my brief is to make reference to the transport and housing sectors.

The building of clinics, schools, houses and the creation of sustainable communities cannot happen in a vacuum or in isolation. Roads must first be built in order to establish access to various public services. The first phase of a town-planning project in urban and rural areas should be the construction of roads in order that the establishment of sustainable communities may commence. The building of roads is a first undertaking before that of any other schemes for the planning and development of communities.

The road network in this country comprises 532 000 kilometres of proclaimed national, provincial and municipal roads and about 220 000 kilometres of unclassified roads. National government accounts for 1,7% of classified roads, the provinces account for 65% and municipalities for 33% of the road network. Provincial roads are in the main gravel roads. Expenditure on roads by national and provincial government is expected to increase by 7,9% in the current financial year and by 10,9% over the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework. Provincial spending on roads accounts for 3,3% of the total provincial expenditure for the financial year ending March 2004.

The 2004-05 Medium-Term Expenditure Framework, in recognition of the importance of road infrastructure, provides additional resources for the baseline. In addition, about 7 900 kilometres of strategic provincial roads are about to be reclassified as national roads. In due course, a larger allocation will go towards the SA National Roads Agency in order to upgrade and maintain the transferred network.

In die 10 jaar van demokrasie is 1,6 miljard nuwe behuisingsgeleenthede geskep vir gesinne met ’n inkomste van minder as R3 500 per maand. Tot op hede het die totale koste van behuisingslewering deur die Regering R27,6 miljard beloop. Die gekose komitee is ingelig dat provinsiale uitgawes op die behuisingsubsidietoekenning wesenlik verhoog het met ’n jaarlikse gemiddelde tarief van 14,9% vanaf 2000-01 tot 2003-04.

Alle provinsies weerspieël betekenisvolle groei in redelike behuisingsuitgawes, met die uitsondering van die Wes-Kaap waar uitgawes met 6,2% afgeneem het oor dieselfde tydperk. Daar was konsekwente onderbesteding op die jaarlikse allokasie; ofskoon dit aansienlik gedaal het in die laaste twee jaar.

Die mediumtermyn-uitgaweraamwerkbewilliging vir behuisingsubsidiestoelae het verhoog van R4,5 miljard in 2004-05 tot R5 miljard in 2006-07. Dit kom neer op ’n jaarlikse gemiddelde verhoging van 4%.

Die nasionale Departement van Behuising het onderneem om voort te gaan met die sterk veldtog om uitgawes te verhoog deur die instelling van maatreëls om behuisingsprojekte wat tot stilstand gekom het weer op dreef te kry. Die departement het probeer om projekte saam met gemeenskapsdeelname te implementeer. Provinsies en munisipaliteite moes gemeenskappe identifiseer waaraan hulle dienste wou verskaf. Prakties was dit nie altyd suksesvol nie.

Regeringsbeleid was dat die HOP-huise nie gebou is alvorens die begunstigde geregistreer en “gesif” is nie. Daar behoort dus geen HOP-huise te wees wat nie toegeken is nie. Die probleem het ontstaan toe kontrakte wat vir behuising toegeken is laat voltooi is. Aansoekers het dan dikwels reeds na ander streke verhuis weens ’n tekort aan werk en om ander redes.

Die vergadering neem waar dat dit nie moontlik is om alle toekennings van HOP-huise te moniteer nie. ‘n Opsieverkry-klousule verhoed sedert 1997-98 die verkoop van HOP-huise deur die eienaar, mits dit aan die provinsiale regering terugverkoop word. Die departement is tans besig om hierdie klousule te wysig om te verseker dat ’n persoon wat binne die tydperk van twee tot vyf jaar ’n HOP-huis verlaat, nie weer geskik sal wees om ’n ander HOP-huis te ontvang nie.(Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mr D J BOTHA: In the 10 years of democracy 1,6 billion new housing opportunities have been created for families with an income of less than R3 500 per month. To date the total cost of housing delivery by government amounts to R27,6 billion. The select committee has been informed that provincial expenditure on the housing subsidy grant has been substantially increased by an average annual tariff of 14,9% from 2000-01 to 2003-04.

All provinces reflect significant growth with regard to reasonable housing expenditure, with the exception of the Western Cape, where expenditure decreased by 6,2% over the same period. There was consistent underspending of the annual allocation; in spite of the fact that it has decreased significantly during the past two years.

The Medium-Term Expenditure Framework allocation for housing subsidy grants was increased from R4,5 billion in 2004-05 to R5 billion in 2006-07. This implies an average annual increase of 4%.

The national Department of Housing has undertaken to continue the strong campaign to increase expenditure through the implementation of measures to get back on track those housing projects that have come to a halt. The department has tried to implement projects with the participation of communities. Provinces and municipalities had to identify communities to which they would deliver services. This was not always practically successful.

Government policy was that RDP houses were not to be built before the beneficiary had been registered and “sifted”. Therefore no RDP houses were to be built that had not been allocated. The problem arose when contracts that were allocated for housing were completed too late. By then applicants had already moved to other areas because of a shortage of work and for other reasons.

The House takes note that it is impossible to monitor all allocations of RDP houses. An option procurement clause has since 1997-98 prevented the sale of RDP houses by the owner, unless it is resold to the provincial government. The department is currently amending this clause in order to ensure that a person who leaves the RDP house within a period of two to five years, would not be eligible to receive another RDP house.]

Since the national Department of Housing does not expect to spend its entire budget in the current financial year, more active steps should be taken to resolve the problem of underspending to ensure that there is more efficient and effective accountability when using housing subsidy funds.

Provincial treasuries must take steps to minimise spending on the eve of the financial yearend and to improve management and spending of funds. To ensure better infrastructure spending, all organs of state in all spheres of government should work together and plan in a co-ordinated manner the expansion of the country’s infrastructure.

Voor ek afsluit wil ek graag net een of twee, as u my dit vergun, aangeleenthede ook aanraak. In Rapport van Sondag 14 November verskyn daar ’n berig van spanning tussen die partye van die NRVP. In die berig word beweer dat daar sekere snedige aanmerkings gemaak is deur my teenoor die DA.

Hierdie Raad kan oordeel oor die snedigheid al dan nie van my opmerking. Ek het gesê dat sommige lede van die DA alle platforms misbruik wat die ANC geskep het om die ANC op alle terreine aan te val. Dit is die stelling wat ek gemaak het.

My agb vriend van Limpopo het ook verwys na hoogheilige NNP-lede wat nou in die ANC sit. Agb lid, die sogenaamde “hoogheiliges”… [Tussenwerpsels.] [Gelag.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Before I conclude I would like to touch on one or two aspects, if you would allow me. In Rapport of Sunday 14 November an article was published regarding tension between the parties of the NCOP. In the article it is alleged that certain cutting remarks had been made by me about the DA.

This Council will be able to judge the sharpness or not of my remark. I said that some members of the DA abused all platforms created by the ANC to attack the ANC on all fronts. That was the statement I made.

My hon friend from Limpopo had also referred to “holier-than-thou” NNP members who are now members of the ANC. Hon member, these so-called “holier- than-thou” members … [Interjections.] [Laughter.]]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon Watson, can I hear your point of order? Order, hon members!

Mr A WATSON: Chair, on a point of order: My colleague was not permitted to speak on her own, but now, that does not sound like a committee report he is presenting to us. [Laughter.] Could you please rule on that one?

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon member, can you focus on the subject of this debate? On a serious note, I think a precedent was set in the earlier ruling. So, I would really advise that you proceed on the basis of the precedent in terms of the earlier ruling. Focus on the subject matter. Thank you.

Mnr D J BOTHA: Agbare Voorsitter, ek wil aan die agb lid sê dat die sogenaamde “hoogheilige” lede van die NNP wat nou in die ANC sit almal die Vryheidsmanifes aanvaar het. Hon Chairperson, I would like to tell the hon member that the so-called “holier-than-thou” members of the NNP who are now in the ANC had all accepted the Freedom Charter.]

Mr S SHICEKA: Chair, on a point of order: The Chief Whip expressed an opinion; an opinion, on which there was no ruling from the presiding officer, in terms of whether we speak as parties or whether we speak as a committee. I would request that you rule on that.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon member, will you take your seat. You are out of order. [Applause.] The Chief Whip did not express an opinion. The hon member who had the floor at that time acceded to the order by the Chief Whip by acknowledging that she’ll focus on her speech. I think we should understand it in that context. Please proceed, hon Botha.

Mnr D J BOTHA: Agb Voorsitter, ek wil net aan die agb lid sê dat al die “hoogheilige” lede van die NNP wat nou in die ANC sit die Vryheidsmanifes aanvaar het en ook demokraties in die totaliteit verkies is. [Gelag.] [Hon Chairperson, I would like to tell the hon member that the “holier-thou- thou” members of the NNP who are now in the ANC had accepted the Freedom Charter and had also been democratically elected. [Laughter.]]

Mr A WATSON: Chair, so even if you stop him, he can’t stop. He continues. Would you please rule that he adheres to your order?

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Can you take your seat? One of my duties, as I’m presiding here, is to listen. I’ve not even heard him finish what he was supposed to say, so it is very difficult for me to make a ruling, because you anticipated what he was going to say. I only heard him talking about the Freedom Charter and he did not conclude that. So, can I allow the hon member to proceed? Can you proceed?

Mnr D J BOTHA: Agb Voorsitter, die Vryheidsmanifes bepaal dat daar in hierdie land werk vir almal sal wees en dat die land sal ontwikkel… [Tussenwerpsels.] Ek sal dit vir jou later herhaal en ek het dit ook nou hierso.

Ek wil verder gaan deur te sê dat my agb vriend van Limpopo ook in hierdie Huis gesê het dat werk net verskaf word en kontrakte net gegee word aan die ANC-lede in hierdie Raad. Ek wil hom vra dat hy bewyse moet bring en dat hy nie allerhande beskuldigings moet maak nie.

Maar ek wil dit stel aan die Raad dat dit lyk of die agb lid van Limpopo nie baie ernstig opgeneem word nie - nie hier nie, en ook nie in die provinsie nie. Ek wil dit staaf; in die provinsiale kongres van die DA… Gelag.

[Mr D J BOTHA: Hon Chairperson, the Freedom Charter stipulates that there will be work for everybody in this country and that the country will develop… [Interjections.] I will repeat it for you later and I also have it here now.

I want to go further by saying that my hon friend from Limpopo also said in this House that jobs are only provided for and contracts only given to the ANC members in this Council. I want to ask him to bring the proof of that and that he should not make all sorts of accusations.

But I would like to put to the Council that it seems as if the hon member from Limpopo is not taken very seriously – not here, and not in the province either. I want to substantiate it; at the provincial congress of the DA … [Laughter.]]

Mr A WATSON: Chair, could you please explain to me what the DA congress has got to do with this debate? [Laughter.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon Watson, can you take your seat? I’ve not given you the platform. Hon Terblanche, can I hear your point?

Ms J F TERBLANCHE: Chairperson, on a point of order: I would like to know what the impact of these interjections and comments are on this Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement? What is the relevance of the DA congress to the statement? If there’s no relevance, I do not know why you allow the member to continue in the way that he does. What is the relevance?

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: I want to make a general ruling regarding all hon members. May we try to restore the dignity and the decorum of the House? With all due respect, we can avoid some of the trivial and not very fundamental issues that we can really live without. Hon Danie Botha, can you please continue. You are left with 30 seconds.

Mr D J BOTHA: Hon Chairperson, I will leave that. I just want to make another statement …

Ms B N DLULANE: Chairperson, on a point of order: Most of the members, especially from the DA, just stand up. They don’t even raise their hands. They don’t have respect for this House. They are supposed to raise their hands and you must tell them that they must stand. What is the rule in this House when you want to raise a point of order?

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon Dlulane, on some of these issues there are no substantive rules. We use discretion as the presiding officer or officer presiding. I really want to assure the hon members that as I’m sitting here I don’t need assistance. When I’ve made a ruling, I’ve made a ruling. I don’t have to be reminded of certain things that hon members feel are omissions regarding the manner in which I emphasise issues, nor do I have to be questioned regarding the manner in which I’ve made a ruling.

If members continue to do that it won’t be fair. I will not point out members when they rise on a point of order. I don’t think that it will be fair to any of us, because it creates an impression that when some members stand on a point of order I anticipate what they want to say. I don’t think that that augurs well for the decorum of the House. Can you continue, hon Botha?

Mr D J BOTHA: Hon Chairperson, I will leave that part. I just want to say that the hon member of Limpopo was left out in the cold because he overplayed his hand with the statement in the newspaper. [Laughter.]

I also want to make a statement … [Time expired.] [Laughter.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon member, your time has expired. Order! Order, hon members. I think we must seriously take note of the fact that the Minister is here to be part of this debate and I really want to assume that he has more responsibilities than we do in terms of time. We might have the luxury of time to go beyond whatever was scheduled. I’m not sure that that is the case with him. I really want to bring this particular point to your attention.

Mr E M SOGONI: Hon Deputy Chair of Chairs, hon Minister of Finance and colleagues, I want to respect the ruling that was made, but I think that making reference to my party would not necessarily mean that I am talking here as a party member. Having said that, maybe I should start reading my speech.

We, as government, have learnt valuable lessons before we came into power regarding our vision for a new democracy. Every four years at our national conference we re-evaluate and re-examine those priorities to ensure that we are still in line with our promises to transform this country into one that creates a better life for all.

This identified and well thought-out list of social transformation and other priorities are subjected to scrutiny every time we engage in adjustments in budget priorities for the various departments of government, and the discussion of the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement is no exception. Indeed, every oversight and monitoring exercise is a new opportunity to examine whether our policies are indeed reaching those for whom they were intended.

We need to only look back as far as the 50th national conference at Mafikeng that directed that redressing poverty and inequality must be a central focus of the ANC to ensure that government and other sectors of society meet the basic needs of the underprivileged of our country and support the development of a comprehensive social security system, not narrow BIG, which includes contributory and noncontributory social security measures.

I think that it is an insult to our people to insinuate that a person will get pregnant only to access a child support grant of R170. It is really an insult.

It should come as no surprise that one of the overwhelming lessons that we learnt during the NCOP initiative of bringing Parliament to the people of KZN is that we need to pay close attention to the detail of our policy framework and to its practical implementation. Again, this statement was prepared before this ruling. [Laughter.]

We as the ANC-led government cannot afford to throw good money after bad by giving billions of rands to poverty alleviation programmes, emergent farming initiatives and farming co-operatives and the like without having the proper support, training, monitoring and oversight structures in place.

So, having examined the MTBPS in the context of this government’s priorities, we recognise that this policy statement is another attempt to change the prevailing status quo of unemployment, poverty and underdevelopment in our country.

We are impressed that when it comes to provisioning for social services the MTBPS informs us that social services comprises almost 60% of government’s non-interest expenditure. In real terms this means a growth of investment in human capital and indirect income for the most vulnerable in our communities. Our government is therefore continuing to place its emphasis on the provision of social security through the increased growth in disability and foster care disbursements.

Other spending priorities are the completion of the land restitution programme and simultaneous support for emerging farmers, salary improvements for good educators and police personnel, improving the efficiency of courts and expanding the SA Police Service. With regard to our international and moral obligations to our continent, we are prioritising support for peacekeeping and development initiatives in Africa and the hosting of the Pan-African Parliament.

The administration and disbursement of social security grants have proven to be a headache for the provincial departments of social development for a long time. But the government believes that the new financial system, which will come into effect from 1 April 2005, will allow the national Department of Social Development, through the establishment of the SA Social Security Agency, to radically improve its administration of grants.

Although this means that provinces will no longer receive the social security component to their provincial allocation, they will now be able to focus their attention on valuable welfare services, rather than grant administration. The other advantage of the new focus on a national social security disbursement agent is to improve the efficacy of social service delivery.

The 2005 MTEF increases access to disability grants and extends the child support grant to children under the age of 14 years. By the end of September this year, almost 9 million people will have benefited from social grants, which exceed the number of beneficiaries on 1 April by 2 million.

This ANC government understands that we need a concerted effort to deal with the effects of unemployment and poverty on our people, so we welcome the allocations made to the Expanded Public Works Programme to assist in lowering the levels of poverty. We have examined, with concern, the substantial increase in the number of beneficiaries of disability grants for adults, care dependency grants for children and foster care grants.

We are encouraging government in its investigation into the cause of the high number of recipients of these grants to ensure that the country’s social security grants system benefits those whom it is designed to benefit. All the parties and the ANC support the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement. I thank you. [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Chairperson and hon members, we live and learn, and part of what I lived through and learnt this afternoon is that politics may not be discussed in the ``House of politics’’. [Laughter.] That’s why I say we live and learn.

The key issue that we need to focus on, as reflected in the Medium- Term Budget Policy Statement, is that the decisions that we have taken over the past 10 years are now starting to bear fruit with the maturing of all indicators. This has clearly created more policy room for us to be able to do what we need to do in this country.

Of course, there is also an ongoing downside to the changes, and part of that is that our microindicators are now looking a lot better. This has resulted in all manner of issues, including the fact that the rand is R5, 96 to the dollar as I speak. This might be very good for hon members like Sogoni and Mzizi, who are travelling abroad after the House rises today. They can buy their foreign exchange and live happily wherever they are going, but for the bulk of people in South Africa it’s quite difficult to deal with.

One of the issues that we have all learnt, as Finance Ministers, is that we can’t bargain for a weaker or stronger rand. The Treasury Secretary or Finance Minister of the United States earlier this week took the platform - and it happened for the third time in the past four years - and restated the fact that the policy of the Bush administration is for a strong dollar. Again, because he said it, the market tested him and the dollar weakened. So, we are not going to go there. It is just important to understand this in the context of what we are trying to achieve.

But one of the things that we must focus on, and some of the hon members did talk about this, is the quality of the spending. There is a link between the discussions here on the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement and the earlier discussion on the trends in intergovernmental fiscal relations. One of the issues arising from the document dealing with the trends that was discussed briefly in the House this afternoon is that we can now look at expenditure trends in provinces and local government over a period of seven years. I think that in looking at it, we need to understand what that means.

And again, I appeal to hon members to see that as very important homework for the constituency period that lies ahead, because part of the work that lies ahead now is to deal with the expectations about the Budget, which will be tabled on 23 February 2005. The Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement takes us out of this room of secrecy and allows elected members to deal with the issues for what they are. And part of dealing with them is to ensure that our people understand exactly what they are.

Together we must be concerned about some of the issues and trends that we observe. Amongst the trends that are worrying is the reducing quality of the spending. As Finance Ministers, we would look at quality to try and ensure that we can maximise what we are spending on tomorrow. What we are spending on tomorrow would entail the amount that we are spending on education, training, facilitating the absorption of young people into the labour markets and the amount that we are spending on infrastructure, because that is growth and labour absorbing, as against what we are spending only on issues like salaries and welfare.

All of us together, as members of Parliament, need to continually engage with these issues. It is not the responsibility of government; it is our collective responsibility as Parliament. And that is what I want to appeal to hon members to revisit in the context of the trends of the IGFR-document and the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement, and to examine the issues we ask of government, and to examine what happens in our respective constituencies within that context. Because the big challenge is that the people who elected us on 14 April 2004 gave us a mandate for a people’s contract. They asked us to deal with the reality of poverty in South Africa, and they asked us to focus on jobs.

We are sitting here, not representing our own jackets, but representing the will and aspirations of the South African electorate. That is the mandate we have to engage with. So, the observations we make about the depth of poverty are relevant to the discourse. But similarly, the observations that we don’t make about the need to expand the base of the economy deny the discourse.

It is in this context that I would like to return to the two points that the hon Robinson made in the debate. On the one hand she restated the need for libraries, and I agree with her. I agree entirely, because there is a growing gap between young people who have access to schools where trees grow - they tend to be private schools or Model C schools - and those who are left behind. Making up the difference through libraries and other mechanisms to expand the minds of young people becomes an enormous challenge. Because that is growth enhancement. But you contradict that by arguing for the basic income grant.

Let me share with the hon members here the way in which a commitment like that would work: The basic income grant would have to be available to every South African. Take a pick of a number; I would assume that there is something in the order of 46 million. So, every South African, not based on a means test, must have access to the grant.

So, if you Deputy Chairperson want to go and stand in the queue to get your grant, it is your entitlement, because that is the simplicity of the administration of the basic income grant. We will have to receive that grant every month. So, for twelve months we will receive the grant. There would be no 13th cheque, presumably. When the debate started the figure was R100, and now I think we need to look at R150. When you look at those numbers, they amount to something like just under R83 billion.

Now, I would like the hon Robinson to pause for a moment and recognise a few issues: Firstly, that we would probably have to raise VAT by at least another 14% to fund that R82, 8 billion. It’s the choice we will have to make. But the costs of VAT would always be borne disproportionately by the poor. Alternatively, we could go out and borrow it.

For members who engaged with the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement, the deficit in this year is R43, 5 billion. Next year we will have to borrow R50, 6 billion. That deficit would be 3,5% of the GDP. Now, if over and above that we have to borrow another R83 billion, we would bankrupt the country.

You can’t make any assumptions by way of budgeting that some people won’t draw down. You have to provide for the right, because it’s a right you establish in law. And, in exercising those kinds of choices they come down to that choice between yesterday and tomorrow, because the inequality is largely a consequence of the denial of the formation of an adequate skills base in this country.

You yourself made the point, hon Robinson, about the difference an education makes in the lives of people. So that denial is with us, and it will be with us, because too many young people in South Africa were denied access to maths and science since 1954 with the introduction of Bantu Education. That will remain as a blot on our collective copybook for a very long time. We have to understand that and engage with it, and then we have to deal with it tomorrow. These are the challenges.

We can’t do everything, but if the call is for us to bankrupt the country, because that is what R82, 8 billion a year would do to us, then we would be in hock - there will be other people taking decisions about our needs in the country. So, we have to be cautious. We have to spend, but we have to spend wisely, because we have to spend for tomorrow. We have to ensure that democracy touches more and more of our people in this country. We have to spend wisely, because our contract with the people is the people’s contract; it is a contract about sustainable growth and development. That is what we have tried to articulate in the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement.

But the work doesn’t end when we rise here and say this House supports the MTBPS. The work continues. My plea to all members in this House is to engage with our people and to be the translators of these documents to our people to ensure that democracy touches the lives of our people now, because they understand what we talk about in this House. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Thank you, hon Minister. That concludes the debate. I shall now put the question. The question is that the report be adopted. As the decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether all delegation heads are present in the Chamber to cast their provinces’ votes. Are they all present? The spirit has gone down now. All of you were all right all of this afternoon.

In accordance with Rule 71, I shall first allow provinces an opportunity to make their declarations of vote, if they so wish. Is there any province that wishes to do so? None. We shall now proceed to the voting on the question. I shall do so in alphabetical order, per province. Delegation heads must please indicate to the Chair whether they vote in favour or against or whether they abstain from voting? Eastern Cape?

Ms B N DLULANE: Supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Free State?

Mrs S E MABE: In favour.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Gauteng?

Mr E M SOGONI: Siyavuma. [We agree.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): KwaZulu-Natal?

Mr Z C NTULI: KwaZulu-Natal is in favour.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Limpopo?

Ms H F MATLANYANE: Re a dumelana nao. [We support.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Hon members, could you please insert your cards in the electronic system. Have you put them in? Okay. If the Kgoshi says so, they are in. Mpumalanga?

Ms M P THEMBA: Mpumalanga supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Northern Cape?

Ms P HOLLANDER: Northern Cape agrees.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): North West?

Mr Z S KOLWENI: North West ke wa rona. [North West supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Western Cape?

Mr N MACK: Western Cape supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): All nine provinces have voted in favour of the report. I therefore declare the report adopted. [Applause.]

Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

                   ADJUSTMENTS APPROPRIATION BILL


            (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): I have a proposal here that the Minister leads the debate. I had Mr Mkhaliphi first on my list of speakers, but the proposal is that the Minister leads the debate. [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Thank you, Deputy Chair. It is your House; I’m your guest, and I serve it with pleasure, sir.

The story about the adjusted estimates which we tabled recently is perhaps more about the way in which we have been able to manage this process than in the detail of the numbers and so on. If we look at this year, we tabled the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement recently and debated it today. We will use that and we will shape a Budget and table that Budget on 23 February. We will ask Parliament to vote on that Budget to carry us until 31 March 2006, in the same way as the Budget that Parliament voted on in February, or in March, would carry us until March 2005.

And now, in the course of the year, we have had to look at a few issues as set out in the Public Finance Management Act. But the information that we had to shape the Budget to March next year was that which we had available at the end of last year. So it is against that backdrop that the adjusted estimates need to be appreciated.

When one looks at a number of other processes in large countries - I have tried to understand them in virtually every OECD country, as well as in a number of developing countries - there isn’t another country I know that adjusts by as small an amount as what we do in this country. And that speaks volumes to the parliamentary oversight and the strength of the process that we now go through.

In 1996-97 the adjusted estimates were done in February, shortly before the Budget, and the amounts involved were substantially high. I think we have broken the back of this, and it is in this context that we need to see the definitions as set out in the PFMA for what is unforeseeable and unavoidable, because we no longer receive that many requests from departments. And I think that the eye of the needle is actually quite small, which allows us to engage with what we think Parliament would be satisfied with when we table it again.

If one looks at the key amounts at hand one of the issues, that changes from local government to local government, is the backlogs in respect of the payment of rates by a number of government departments, and that is a large amount of money, almost R600 million. This includes the Pebble Bed Modular Reactor. Soon we are going to run out of energy availability and thermal energy, which we produce from coal, is not going to be able to provide for the needs of a country like South Africa.

There is R200 million for land restitution. There are issues relating to correctional services, where we need improvements in the quality of personnel and the way in which we spend on that. The integrity of the social grant system including the review thereof - to ensure that those who should not be getting grants won’t get grants - requires R40 million.

The restructuring of state forestry assets requires R40 million. A VAT payment for ICASA - we have changed the law, but they’ve had to pay VAT on the grants received from national government - amounts to R45 million. And then there is accommodation by the Department of Public Works, which covers R43 million.

We have also, in these adjusted estimates, included amounts for drought relief, which add up to some R430 million, and for the Pan-African Parliament, which we now host, and to which the Deputy Chair is very partial as a member thereof.

So in broad terms, that is our spending as national government. We also allowed for R3, 27 billion in addition for provinces so that they can deal with these backlogs and shortfalls in respect of local government. There is R847 million in addition to provinces to deal with the personnel costs arising from the negotiations, and then a further amount to local government.

So in broad terms we have not really shifted the deficit much, but only by 0,2% altogether. We’ve come back to Parliament with the adjusted estimates of national expenditure, line by line, and asked Parliament to look at them, not just at the numbers, but also for the select committees here to try an understand where the changes have been made to each Vote and to monitor that very closely because at the end of the day it is Parliament, and the NCOP in particular, that would have to satisfy itself that it is getting value for the buck. Thank you very much, Deputy Chair. [Applause.]

Mr B J MKHALIPHI: Deputy Chairperson, hon Minister and colleagues, as a democratic government, our notion of transparency, accountability and popular participation has crucial features. Accountability, transparency and popular participation are not a once-off exercise by a certain individual in a tight corner. They should leave a trail that is traceable through a number of institutions and individuals for any duration of time. They are not an event in any measure but they are processes through the years, and they talk to planning and performance in relation to policies and milestones. They are not only a narration of what transpired in the past or in the present but are also a narration of what is coming.

On presenting the Medium-Term Budget Policy statement and other documents, the Minister of Finance also presented the adjusted estimates of national expenditure, which indicated adjustment of total expenditure from R369 billion to about R371 billion. The reasons for these adjustments are well documented and have been elaborated on. I wouldn’t even bother to go there.

What is interesting is that the Treasury Committee received a request for funding of unforeseen and unavoidable expenditure amounting to a total of R6 billion. It approved only R1,65 billion for all that unavoidable expenditure that the Minister has just highlighted. It is anticipated that this additional allocation will assist in offsetting the huge backlogs in municipalities in respect of services and rates. The Minister has already highlighted the others so I won’t even go there. Further adjustments to provinces amounted to R4,11 billion - R3,27 billion for social grants and R847 million for increased personnel cost.

The Bill in front of us further highlights some self-financing expenditure, underexpenditure and savings by some departments. It is for this House - especially in our service as permanent delegates - to reflect on what we are going to do with this kind of information. In my view statistics are like sharp objects. You have to handle them with care; if you don’t, you will regret it.

We’ve seen in the past how some people tried to draw some facts – even yesterday – from statistics. However, they did it in such a way that those facts came back to bite them. So we tread carefully so that we do not see ourselves committing hara-kiri. We commend the Adjustments Appropriation Bill for approval by this hon House. I thank you. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Thank you, hon member. That concludes the debate.

I shall now put the votes in the order in which they appear on the schedule to the Bill.

Vote No 1 – The Presidency – put.

Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Vote 2 – Parliament – put.

Declaration of vote:

Mr A WATSON: Chair, no organisation can fulfil its mandate without financial capacity and Parliament is obviously no different. We can therefore not fault the appropriation to Parliament nor indeed the adjustments. On the contrary, we who serve on the Joint Budget Committee have found it necessary to propose increased capacity for our oversight function in this House and also for overall constituency work.

We must, however, question the actual application of such appropriated funds. The motion for which my colleague, the hon Greg Krumbock, gave notice yesterday epitomises our problem regarding the way in which the facilities and procedures of the NCOP are abused and twisted to marginalise the opposition, and to enforce the views of the governing party without recognition of the democratic rights of other parties. In particular, the DA – which represents the only true opposition in this House - has been marginalised.

We are part of a multiparty democracy and as such, we have a right and indeed a duty to represent the views of the people by whom we were elected. What happened on 2 November in KwaZulu-Natal, and which has happened on many occasions here in this upper House of this revered institution, Parliament, cannot and will not be tolerated.

We believe that you become what you condone and we do not wish to become part of a one-party domination within what should be a multiparty democracy. We will therefore not condone being sidelined and obstructed.

The strongest way, as you may well know, in which to express dissatisfaction against a particular Vote or the way moneys are used in parliamentary terms would therefore be to call for a division and to vote against such an appropriation. I do, however, believe that I have amply registered the dissatisfaction of my party and we have no problem with the appropriation as such. I will not call for the division but I ask that our objection to the way the appropriation is applied be noted. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr T S SETONA: Chairperson, I rise on behalf of the ANC to declare our unequivocal support to Vote No 2, which deals with the appropriation for Parliament. Maybe it is necessary that we give a particular context, which will also attempt to clarify not only to Mr Watson and his party but also to the electorate out there as to why, as the ANC, we support this Vote; and why we will continue to conduct ourselves in the manner in which we have done in the past since 1912 until today, including what we did in KwaZulu-Natal - and we are not quite apologetic about that.

It was 46 years ago in the dusty grounds of Kliptown when our people assembled under the leadership of the ANC to declare to South Africa and the world that the people shall govern. The people never governed this country before 27 April 1994. Of course, Mr Watson was part of government. The 27 April 1994 democratic breakthrough marked a historic turning point in the history of our struggle to create a people’s government – with the ushering in of a democratically elected Parliament of the people.

We look back at the first 10 years of democracy with pride in the manner in which our Parliament has conducted its business and exercised its constitutional duty that has entrenched the very values and principles of the Freedom Charter, which many of our people have died for. In 1976, when the students of Soweto were shot by the then security forces, one of the leaders of the opposition was a lance corporal. They hovered above in an aeroplane and shot our students. It is the ANC that has fought for those particular values - the values of an open and accountable government that people died for and the values of transparency, equality, democracy, nonracialism and nonsexism.

Through the manner in which it functions, our Parliament has placed the people on the centre stage and recognises that diversity of our society finds concrete expression in its multiparty character. Multiparty character does not mean that we must abandon the overwhelming mandate and the voice of our people, 70%, to appease the DA. We are not going to do that as the ANC.

It is on the basis of this that I rise to declare the ANC’s support for the Vote to turn this Parliament into an extension of struggle to create work and fight poverty - the very same struggle that many of our people have died for. We will continue to raise their spears to continue with their fight, whether the DA likes it or not. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr K SINCLAIR: Deputy Chairperson, it is important that when we speak about these issues we have our facts right and that when we address the House we use this opportunity in a manner that will also be to the benefit of the people out there.

Now I am a bit confused about the remarks that have been made by the hon Watson on behalf of the DA, because he comes here and makes a pledge to say that they are against this. But in the same breath he says that they are not going to oppose it. If we look at the reality that we are dealing with, specifically with Budget Vote 2…

Ms J F TERBLANCHE: Thank you. I think this is the first time in months that this thing is working.

I would just like to rise on a point of order, please. As far as I know there was a deadline to speak on this specific Vote and the NNP did not register before the deadline. So Chairperson, I would just like to know why he is being given the opportunity to speak?

The ANC gave a deadline at the Whips meeting. I had to submit the DA’s votes, declarations or divisions before 8 o’clock yesterday morning. The NNP did not register that they want to speak on this vote. Why are parties…?

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): I have heard your point of order. Let me make a ruling. I am using my own discretion as the Presiding Officer. Continue, Mr Sinclair.

Ms J F TERBLANCHE: We won’t follow deadlines in future.

Mr K SINCLAIR: Deputy Chairperson, for once the DA has met the deadline and now they are very proud of it. I have a document here from the multiparty Whips meeting of Monday, 15 November and in dealing with this issue, specifically Budget Vote 2, because we are dealing with finances, the DA indicated that they would vote and make a declaration against all these votes.

The point is whilst we are dealing with finances and all these things, these people, the DA, are wasting the funds of this august House. They created a perception that they are going to oppose all these things…

Mr A WATSON: On a point of order. Are we debating the DA or are we debating the votes? [Laughter.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Mr Sinclair, come back to the subject.

Mr K SINCLAIR: Deputy Chair, you see that is exactly the problem with the DA. They are always attacking other people, but when somebody else attacks them they act like cry babies. [Laughter.] [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Deputy Chair, may I propose that, for this Adjustments Appropriation Bill, all members speak from their seats for time management purposes, because this is not necessarily a debate. Of course those whose microphones are not functional have the freedom to move to the next working microphone and then after that declaration the member will go back to his or her allocated seat. It is as simple as that. Thank you.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Can I also ask the staff to please look at the systems in the House when we adjourn for recess. It is quite perturbing.

Vote No 3 – Foreign Affairs - put. Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution. Vote No 4 – Home Affairs - put. Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution. Vote No 5 - Provincial and Local Government - put. Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution. Vote No 6 – Public Works - put. Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution. Vote No 7 – Government Communication and Information System - put. Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution. Vote No 8 – National Treasury - put. Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution. Vote No 9 – Public Enterprises - put. Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution. Vote No 10 – Public Service and Administration - put. Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution. Vote No 11 – Public Service Commission - put. Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution. Vote No 12 – South African Management Development Institute - put. Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution. Vote No 13 – Statistics South Africa - put. Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution. Vote No 14 – Arts and Culture - put. Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution. Vote No 15 – Education - put.

Declarations of vote:

Mr O M THETJENG: Chairperson, the DA supports the Adjustments Appropriation Bill before us. We do, though, have concerns in that the schools nutritional conditional grant is not sufficient to take care of the needs in some provinces. For example, in the Eastern Cape province learners are fed three days a week instead of five days due to insufficient funding. This compromises the very good intention of this programme, namely that no learner should be in class while hungry. I thank you, Chairperson.

Mr J B TOLO: Chair and hon members, as the ANC - and I am very unapologetic about making mention of the word ANC - we want to support, in no uncertain terms, the Department of Education for the sterling work they have done since the advent of democracy in this country.

When we ascended to power in 1994 there was no education system to talk about. There were about 14 fragmented education systems based along racial and ethnic lines to suit the white minority rule. We have succeeded in a short space of time, in historical terms of only 10 years, to demolish all those Mickey Mouse education systems. And on their ruins we managed to build a unitary democratic education system based on the principles, as elaborated by the Congress of the People in Kliptown in 1955.

There is no doubt in our minds that the education foundation we have established is rock solid and irreversible. What is left now is to move from victory to victory in addressing the legacy of the past regime in education. We do not have elusions that this would be a road adorned with roses.

The challenges that are there, like shortages of classrooms, overcrowding, lack of libraries and many others are well documented and to address these is not, and will not be, an event. It will be a long and protracted process to finally wipe out the inequalities that exist in education and to realise the quality of education that would put every child on par with all other children in this global world.

Those who think that the problems that are there in education are ANC invented are suffering from political myopia. [Laughter.] And they need lots of remedial work in their outlook. As the ANC we support this Vote, because we think the adjusted amounts in education are just and necessary. I thank you. [Applause.]

Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Vote No 16 – Health – put.

Declarations of vote:

Mr O M THETJENG: Chairperson, it is very surprising this afternoon to hear people talking about issues that they haven’t verified. Anyway, let me just get to Vote No 16.

The Hospital Revitalisation Programme is not taking shape in the 36 hospitals around the country due to a lack of capacity. It is very critical that the national Department of Health doesn’t have the capacity to carry out the Hospital Revitalisation Programme. According to the Auditor- General’s report, which was released recently, there is general underspending due to a lack of capacity to deliver on the programme. The National Treasury would have increased the budget if the capacity existed to deliver on the project that intends to rehabilitate the harrowing dilapidating conditions in hospitals.

We will therefore not move in favour of the budget due to the fact that the national Department of Health had the capacity in each of the provinces to revitalise four hospitals per province and hence if you multiply four by nine you will arrive at the correct number of hospitals.

Due to a lack of capacity, this project cannot get off the ground. Therefore, this Health Budget is insufficient because of the issue of capacity. We are not satisfied with the budget as it stands now. [Interjections.]

You can howl and howl, the reality is before us and these are the facts. You can howl and howl. Thank you, Chairperson.

Ms J MASILO: Ke a leboga Motlatsa-modulasetilo le maloko a Ntlo eno e tlotlegang.[Thank you, Deputy Chairperson and members of this honourable House.]

As the ANC government, we support the Vote. The ANC government is committed to improving the lives of our people, especially with regard to health matters. Already, over the past ten years the Ministry of Health has systematically begun to eliminate all the barriers that prevented all South Africans from having equal access to an equitable health system. There are no more Whites Only’’ andNie-Blanke’’[Non Whites] facilities in our beloved South Africa.

We have 112 facilities, which are user-friendly, 30 hospitals, part of the Hospital Revitalisation Programme is under way and still continuing, and 4770 wheelchairs and 4674 hearing aids have been distributed. Hence the department needs more money to continue to provide more service delivery. We are also trying to combat some of the deadliest diseases known to man such as malaria, cholera and HIV/Aids. Already, we have a 6% decrease in malaria cases compared to 2002-03. And we have 2582 sites that provide voluntary counselling and testing for HIV/Aids, as well as HIV/Aids awareness and the distribution of condoms for those who cannot abstain, like the youth who start with supper instead of breakfast. [Laughter.]

We need more money for effective service delivery as we support adjustment. We have 82% immunisation coverage and are well on our way to being declared polio-free by December 2005. We have food fortification which was introduced in 2003 and the primary school nutrition programme which has reached 4,5 million school children since 1994 to the end of March 2003. We have 18% more schools involved in health promotion in school initiatives.

Seven thousand health workers have been trained in the integrated management of the childhood illness strategy to decrease illnesses, morbidity and mortality from common diseases among children less than five years of age.

Ke a leboga Motlatsa-modulasetilo. [Thank you, Deputy Chairperson.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Order! hon members, a division has been called. [Interjections.] Order! I understand the fighting, but please respect the Presiding Officer as well.

Order! Hon members, a division has been called for and I have ascertained that four more members are in favour of that. I would like to caution members that during division no debate would be allowed. Can I first check whether there is support for this division? OK, there is support as four more members are calling for the division.

The question upon which the Council will divide is Vote 16 that has to be agreed on. Because our electronic system is not working so well, those in favour will take their seats to my right and those against will take their seats to my left. [Interjections.]

Order! Let’s sit down, Mr Ntuli. Take your seats. [Interjections.] Order! Hon member the time is against us, unless you want to leave here at eight O’clock. We have not finished. Are there any members who do not have voting rights in the House? If there are any, they must go right to the back. Those who wish to abstain must come and sit somewhere in front. Oh, you are already at the back. Fine. Are you abstaining, hon member? So move away and join Mr Tlhagale. Mr Van Heerden?

I will now allow the Chief Whip to do the counting quickly so that I can get the results. Can somebody count the other side please? No, Mr Ntuli, they will count themselves. Do not worry. You can count yourself. It is not a problem. Please feel free to count yourself. Mr Louis, stand up and count and give me the results.

Division demanded.

The Council divided:

 AYES-35: Adolph, E; Botha, D J; Dlulane, B N; Gamede, D D; Goeieman, M
 C; Hollander, P; Kolweni, Z S; Mabe, S E; Mack, N; Madlala, N M;
 Masilo, J; Mkhaliphi, B J; Mkono, D G; Mokoena, L M; Moseki, A L;
 Mzizi, M A; Ntuli, Z C; Nyanda, F; Oliphant, M N; Qikani, A N D;
 Ralane, T S; Robertson, M O; Setona, T S; Shiceka, S; Sibiya, M J;
 Sinclair, K; Sogoni, E M; Sulliman, M A; Tau, R J; Themba, M P; Tolo, J
 B; Van Heerden, F J; Van Rooyen, C J; Vilakazi, J N; Windvoël, V V Z.


 NOES - 8: Chen, S S; Lamoela, H; Le Roux, J W; Loe, S J; Robinson, D;
 Terblanche, J F; Thetjeng, O M; Watson, A.


 ABSTAIN -1: Tlhagale, J O.

Mr A WATSON: Chair, I noted the derogatory way in which the Chief Whip said “only eight are against”. May I remind him that that is 15% of this House. Thank you. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Okay. I now put Vote No 17. Are there any objections? No objections. Order!

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, on a serious note I would like to say that I don’t mind about the percentage, although I am not sure whether it is accurate. But I would like the member to withdraw the word “derogatory”.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Mr Watson, could you withdraw the word “derogatory”?

Mr A WATSON: The point is that it was derogatory. He said those against “are only eight”. [Interjections.] There’s no … [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Order! Order! Let me make a ruling on that. Mr Watson, sit down. It is not derogatory if I say “only”. There is nothing derogatory about that. Would you withdraw that?

Mr A WATSON: Then I withdraw.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Thank you. [Applause.]

Vote accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Vote No 17 – Labour – put.

Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Vote No 18 – Science and Technology – put.

Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Vote No 19 – Social Development – put.

Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Vote No 20 – Sport and Recreation South Africa – put. Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Vote No 21 – Correctional Services – put.

Declaration of vote:

Ms S J LOE: Thank you, Chair. The DA supports Vote No 21 but not without some concerns. The major concern is this: The work of the Department of Correctional Services is hampered by a shortage of personnel, coupled with a growing prison population. Vacancies, staff transfers and deployments have led to a situation in which staff cannot cope in emergency situations.

While investigations are taking their course into the horrific deaths at Pollsmoor Prison and Pretoria C-Max - all of those recent - one of the contributing factors that I am sure will emerge from these investigations is the inadequate number of members available to watch over the inmates.

Eight percent of the department’s posts are vacant, and some prisons are losing experienced staff members and getting untrained people in their place. That also contributes to the problem in our view. In this scenario there were 119 escapes from prison in the first eight months of this year. That figure excludes the incidents I have described in these prisons in which prisoners and officials died.

And, while I am on the subject, I’m sure the House will join me in paying tribute to two exceptionally brave Correctional Services department officials, Mr Gomba and Mr Ndinisa, who died for refusing to be taken hostage themselves. They were shot dead. They refused to be taken hostage. They even tried to disarm the prisoners that were involved.

Apart from the personnel shortage I’ve described the department has outdated, inadequate and badly maintained security equipment, such as electronic scanners, cameras and monitoring devices. This seems to be the order of the day in the Department of Correctional Services.

We were told today that the CCTVs in the streets of Johannesburg are more sophisticated than those at C-Max. There simply has to be funds to rectify this situation and to ensure that prisons do not wait for weeks for repairs to be done to vital security equipment by Public Works. In the interest of keeping people alive, there should be funds allocated for repairs to be outsourced and for equipment to be replaced when necessary.

While the DA recognises the sterling work being done by the department to rehabilitate offenders and ensure their smooth transition back into society after their release, there remains a fundamental problem with the control of gangs and drug trafficking in prisons. The DA maintains that all vacancies must be urgently filled in order to come to grips with this problem, especially of security personnel. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr B J MKHALIPHI: Thank you, Deputy Chairperson. The recent assessment of the department as a whole indicates that there is reasonable ground for the achievement of its core mandate, that is the correction of the offending behaviour of those people who are incarcerated. Achieving this mandate, in recent years, has been reaching its prime.

There is also growing evidence that the department wants to move away from the present five-day working week to a seven-day working week, which will bring about the maximal utilisation of personnel and therefore avoid staff shortages caused mainly by congestion in prisons.

In terms of addressing the present congestion in prisons, closer co- operation and co-ordination among the justice cluster would also ensure that people who could be out on bail are allowed out, therefore releasing much of the space and resources of prisons so that the risks brought about by overcrowding are avoided. Precisely because of the reasons cited by my colleagues out there, we support this Vote entirely. [Applause.]

Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Vote No 22 – Defence – put.

Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution (Independent Democrats dissenting).

Vote No 23 – Independent Complaints Directorate – put.

Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Vote No 24 – Justice and Constitutional Development – put.

Declarations of vote:

Ms S J LOE: Thank you, Chair. I rise with similar concerns as expressed with regard to the previous Vote. It is our duty as government to guarantee the safety of those in our justice system who are literally in the firing line. Simply put, our magistrates and prosecutors are still not safe from those being brought to justice.

Criminals have gained access to guns and ammunition and have used these to escape and to murder magistrates, prosecutors and court orderlies during court appearances. Some magistrates have been deliberately tracked down and killed in revenge attacks.

A physical survey of courts by the DA in which I participated a few years ago revealed a serious shortage of security personnel and equipment at courts in Gauteng, yet reports of killings and escapes have continued seemingly unabated. In 2002-03 there were 3 260 escapes from police custody and in 2003-04 there were 2 663. The DA believes that security in courts across the country is seriously inadequate and warrants far more attention and funds. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr S SHICEKA: Thank you, Deputy Chairperson. The ANC supports the Vote, because we believe that nobody living in this country can claim that the wheels of justice are not turning. The argument can be about the pace. We are the first ones on this side of the House to admit that the speed needs to be improved upon. We believe that it is not fast enough, but the department is on course.

Let us look at what has been done and at what is still being done by the department as we speak. For the first time in this country attention is being given to children, women, the elderly and people with disabilities. The design of our buildings and the construction of our courts are done with the needs of these vulnerable groups in mind.

Security plans for our courts have been developed and are being implemented. The member on the other side of the House doesn’t attend oversight visits; she doesn’t come to meetings. She just comes for five minutes and disappears. [Interjections.] Therefore she can’t claim any authority on these matters. She must keep quiet and listen to those that are involved in the work.

Productivity in our courts has improved dramatically. The conviction rate has also increased. Docket disappearance has been reduced through the appointment of managers who are managing our courts, and there is also a docket management system that has been developed that ensures that all cases are computerised.

Our courts are being built in villages and townships in a programme that is taking justice to the people. In Sotho we say: Re aga ka boswa. [We rehabilitate.] Sixty-four sexual offences courts have been established. Conviction rates have improved – about 72% are being convicted. We see that progress has been made.

For the first time 62 investigators for maintenance cases have been appointed. Lokho kusho ukuthi amadoda angabhadali, angenadaba neyingane zawo asenhluphekweni. [This means that men who don’t pay maintenance and don’t take responsibility for their children are in trouble. They must watch out.]

Therefore we believe that the Justice department is doing very well. It is on course, and we believe that the situation is going to get better as we go along. Therefore we don’t agree with the DA. The ANC supports the Vote. Thank you very much, Chair. [Applause.]

Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Vote No 25 – Safety and Security – put.

Declarations of vote:

Ms S J LOE: Thank you, Chair. Again, while we support Vote No 25 there are concerns that I would like to declare in this House. The DA remains vitally concerned about the inadequate funding of forensic services within the SA Police Service and about the shortage of detectives. The difficulty and delay in securing evidence, particularly through DNA testing, crucially affects the ability of the police to present to the courts the proof needed to gain convictions.

From the local record centres to our forensic laboratories, there is a skilled personnel shortage and inadequate equipment. Admirable steps have been taken in centres across the country to bring about some improvements, but the SAPS is still sadly lacking in this area. I wouldn’t be doing my job as an opposition member if I didn’t point that out. The tragedy is that criminals literally get away with murder and rape owing to these shortcomings.

One of the reasons for the persistent vacancies at our biggest laboratories is that there is no space to accommodate key people such as scientists, and this was given in a reply from the hon Minister.

South Africa was labelled this week as the country with the highest rape figures in the world - standing at 50 000 per year, and that is only reported cases. [Interjections.] Don’t shoot the messenger guys, those are the facts. Of the 50 000 rapes, 20 000 were perpetrated against children.

We can have as many days of activism as we like – 6, 16, 60 - but that won’t help until we give these rapists something to fear. We can’t do that, in my view, with a total annual budget of just R3, 7 million for the following: Forensic science laboratories, integrated ballistic identification, the national drug intelligence database and the DNA database. All that they will get is R3,7 million per year.

The 7 000 detectives at station level have notoriously large case loads, which means that they are unable to conduct proper investigations. Ask any detective. Don’t sit in this House. Go out and ask. [Interjections.] Without proper evidence, the hands of the courts are tied. The result is that scores of suspects are acquitted on technical grounds, leading to low conviction rates. Only 6% of violent crimes recorded by the police result in convictions. Mr Shiceka, that is not an improvement. Seventy-five percent of violent crimes reported do not make it to court, and, of those that go to trial, nearly as many defendants are acquitted as those that are convicted.

Only 2% of the SAPS budget is allocated to crime intelligence, which is about the same as that allocated to VIP protection services. This means that we spend the same amount of money on protecting the President and the Cabinet as we do on the other 45 million ordinary South Africans through proactive crime intelligence.

Now, the SAPS has also indicated that funding for VIP protection services is due to rise by as much as 24% in the next financial year, but they have made no mention of similar provisions for accelerated funding for crime intelligence operations - that’s for the rest of us. The DA argues that the SAPS detectives …

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Hon member, your speaking time has expired.

Ms S J LOE: Thank you, Chair. [Applause.]

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Chairperson, let’s welcome the hon Shelley Loe to this democratic Parliament. When the then government unleashed the police to harass our people, her party was nice and quiet. [Interjections.] When our people …

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Order! Could you please … [Interjections.] Ms Loe, order! [Interjections.] Order! You were given an opportunity to be listened to. Will you please listen to other people. [Interjections.] Now, will you listen to the Chair? Continue, hon member.

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Thank you, Chairperson. What worries the moon when the dog barks? [Laughter.] When our people were detained without trial, her party was quiet. When the then government unleashed the police to kick and break down the doors of our houses …

Ms S J LOE: Chair, will you hear …[Inaudible.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): On a point of order? Agreed.

Ms S J LOE: Chair, the …

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Just say what your point of order is.

Ms S J LOE: Thank you, Chair. The speaker is making incorrect statements about me. He is talking about my party. I cannot let that be said, Chair.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): That’s not a point of order. Sit down. Continue, hon member. [Interjections.]

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Thank you, Chairperson. Let me say that when the police broke down our doors, in search of so-called terrorists – I am referring to our comrades - her party was nice and quiet. [Interjections.] [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Continue, hon member.

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Chairperson, when our people who made it possible for some of the members to make a noise here were attacked … [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Hon member, would you allow hon Mokoena a chance to deliver his remarks please?

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Thank you, Chairperson. I don’t mind, because that’s a sign of appreciation for what I am saying. I was saying that when our cadres were attacked outside this country, her party was quiet. I would be surprised if she could stand what I’m saying. Only people with a thicker skin can stand this.

Before 1994 people were reluctant to report cases to police stations. Before that period, people didn’t have confidence in our police officers. The kind of training they received was that of “skop, skiet en donner”. Of course, some of those officers are now part of us.

Now all that has changed, thanks to this government. They are now working together with our communities. For example, this government is deploying 152 000 police officers to protect our people. The department’s programme to try to retrain our people …

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Order!

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: On a point of order, Chairperson, I think we should agree to respect the integrity of this House and conduct ourselves in a very dignified manner as members of this House. This is so that even if you have been emotional you still bow to the presiding officer. And when you come in you must also bow, so that we don’t just come in and go out as if this House was a shebeen, because what we are doing is a real disgrace. I also don’t think that it’s representative of the code of conduct of the parties we represent.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Hon member, can I make a statement? It doesn’t matter how heated the debate is in the House - you’re politicians - the decorum of the House has to be maintained all the time. Can we understand each other on this? Please.

Hon Mokoena, you still have half a minute to speak.

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Thank you, Chairperson. I was saying that there now is unique partnership between our police officers and the community. That’s why we have these so-called CPFs – community policing forums - in our society. The ratio per police officer has improved tremendously. Our police officers are now dedicated more than ever before.

The morale of these police officers are very high. This is so because of the good conditions that have been created by this government and this department. Many of our police officers are putting their lives at risk to ensure that all of us are safe. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Hon Thetjeng and hon Sogoni, this is not a playground. Please - this is Parliament. If you want to box each other go outside. My duty is to protect any member in this House, so that you can have freedom of speech. This is a House for debate, okay.

Mr D J BOTHA: Chair, regarding the previous incident when you as the presiding officer ruled that the member should sit down and listen, she jumped up, grabbed her stuff and ran out of the House, not showing any respect. I don’t think that that shows respect for this House. I think she needs to apologise to the Chair.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): We will investigate that through the Table and pronounce ourselves on that matter. I think there is a degree of discipline that we have to maintain in the House.

Vote No 26 – Agriculture – put.

Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Vote No 27 – Communications – put.

Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Vote No 28 – Environmental Affairs and Tourism – put.

Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Vote No 29 – Housing – put.

Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Vote No 30 – Land Affairs – put.

Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Vote No 31 – Minerals and Energy – put.

Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Vote No 32 – Trade and Industry – put.

Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Vote No 33 – Transport – put.

Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Vote No 34 – Water Affairs and Forestry – put.

Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Question put: That the Schedule be agreed to. Schedule agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Question put: That the Bill be agreed to.

Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

             DRAFT NOTICE ON REMUNERATION OF MAGISTRATES

(Consideration of Report of Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs)

Ms P HOLLANDER: Hon Chairperson and hon members, on behalf of the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs, I would like to state that the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs has considered the request for approval by the President of the draft notice and schedule in terms of section 12 of the Judicial Officers (Amendment of Conditions of Service) Act, Act 28 of 2003, determining the rate of remuneration payable to magistrates annually with effect from 1 April 2004.

The schedule highlights the following: Salaries applicable to magistrates; the annual service bonus; motor vehicle financing benefits for the chief magistrate, regional magistrate, regional court president and the special grade chief magistrate; and, homeowner and medical aid allowances.

The Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs recommends that the draft notice and schedule in terms of section 12 of the Judicial Officers (Amendment of Conditions of Service) Act, Act 28 of 2003, determining the rate at which salaries are payable to magistrates annually with effect from 1 April 2004 be approved. I thank you. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): I shall now put the question. The question is that the report be adopted. As the decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether all delegation heads are present in the Chamber to cast their votes. I hope you are all present. I didn’t see anybody going out.

In accordance with Rule 71, I shall first allow provinces an opportunity to make their declarations of vote. Is there any province that wishes to do so? No. We shall now proceed to voting on the question. I shall do so in alphabetical order per province. Delegation heads must please indicate to the Chair whether they vote in favour of or against, or whether they abstain from voting. Eastern Cape?

Ms B N DLULANE: Iyaxhasa. [Supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Free State?

Mrs S E MABE: Siyavuma. [We agree.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Gauteng?

Mr E M SOGONI: Ke wa rona, ntate. [We support.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): KwaZulu-Natal?

Mr Z C NTULI: IKwaZulu-Natali iyaxhasa. [KwaZulu-Natal supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Limpopo?

Ms H F MATLANYANE: Limpopo e a dumela. [Limpopo agrees.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Mpumalanga?

Ms M P THEMBA: Mpumalanga supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Northern Cape?

Ms P HOLLANDER: Noord-Kaap steun. [Northern Cape supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): North West?

Mr Z S KOLWENI: North West ke wa rona. [North West supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Western Cape?

Mr N MACK: Supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): All nine provinces voted in favour. I therefore declare the report adopted.

Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

               DRAFT NOTICE ON REMUNERATION OF JUDGES

(Consideration of Report of Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs)

Mr S SHICEKA: Deputy Chairperson, I am standing next to you to present a report on the remuneration of Constitutional Court judges specifically, and judges broadly. This process is derived from the legislative mandate of section 2 of the Judges’ Remuneration and Conditions of Employment Act, Act 47 of 2001. This section gives the power to the President of the Republic of South Africa to determine the salaries payable to Constitutional Court judges and judges annually, with effect from 1 April.

This year, 2004, payment will range from R615 130 for ordinary High or Labour Court judges to R688 537 for the Chief Justice of the Republic of South Africa. Therefore, in terms of section 2(4) of the Judges’ Remuneration and Conditions of Employment Act, Act 47 of 2001, I request this august House to approve the determination rate of salaries payable to Constitutional Court judges, court judges and judges broadly, with effect from 1 April 2004. Thank you. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): That concludes the debate. I shall now put the question, and the question is that the report be adopted. As the decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether the delegation heads are present in the Chamber to cast their provinces’ votes. You are all still here.

In accordance with Rule 71, I will allow provinces to make their declarations of vote if they so wish. Is there any province that wishes to do so? None. We shall now proceed to voting on the question. I shall do so in alphabetic order per province. Delegation heads will then indicate to the Chair whether they vote in favour or against or whether they abstain from voting. Eastern Cape?

Ms B N DLULANE: Siyavuma. [We agree.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Free State?

Mrs S E MABE: Siyaxhasa. [We support.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Gauteng?

Mr E M SOGONI: Gauteng supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: (Mr M J Mahlangu): KwaZulu-Natal?

Mr Z C NTULI: KwaZulu-Natal is in favour.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Limpopo?

Ms H F MATLANYANE: Limpopo e a dumela. [Limpopo agrees.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Mpumalanga?

Ms M P THEMBA: Mpumalanga iyasekela. [Mpumalangu supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Northern Cape?

Ms P HOLLANDER: Northern Cape agrees.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): North West?

Mr Z S KOLWENI: North West is in favour.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Western Cape?

Mr N MACK: Western Cape supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): All nine provinces voted in favour. I therefore declare the report adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

        ALLEGATIONS OF NONDISCLOSURE BY MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT


 (Consideration of Report of Joint Committee on Ethics and Members’
                             Interests)

Mr A J L MOSEKI: Modulasetulo, [Chairperson] our committee is required by the code of ethics governing members of this House to listen to allegations and cases presented to it, and accord members whom allegations are made against an opportunity to clarify the issue, or address the committee on those allegations.

On 8 September, allegations were made by a newspaper against 13 members of Parliament, namely that they did not declare as required by the code. The committee as a result of that convened and accorded those members an opportunity to reply to those allegations. I must, at this juncture, really take this opportunity to thank those members for fully co-operating with the committee. We urge other members to also do that in future, namely to fully co-operate with the committee when allegations of this nature are presented to the public, because it will assist the committee in dealing with issues and maintaining the integrity of this House.

I am not going to read the names of the particular members, because I am going to table this report in the House. But in addition to that, I want to say that later the same newspaper again made allegations against another member. The committee also attended to that matter.

In the meeting that I referred to, the committee discussed this matter and made its own findings regarding these issues, assisted by the members, as I have said, and any other information that we could gather in order to deal with these issues holistically. Having done that, we looked at the merits and the demerits of each case and arrived at the decision. Once again, because we are talking about 14 cases, I will not read the members’ names. The report is tabled in the House.

The joint committee recommends that the House adopt this report. With those few words I thank you. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Thank you, hon member. That concludes the debate. I shall now put the question. The question is that the report be adopted. As the decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether all delegation heads are present in the Chamber to cast their provinces’ vote. And I hope you are still all present. In accordance with Rule 71, I shall first allow provinces the opportunity to make their declarations of vote, if they so wish. Are there any provinces that wish to do so? None.

We shall now proceed to voting on the question. I shall do so in alphabetical order, per province. Delegation heads must please indicate to the Chair whether they vote in favour or against or whether they abstain from voting. Eastern Cape?

Ms B N DLULANE: Siyayixhasa ingxelo. [We support the report.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Free State?

Mrs S E MABE: Free State ya dumela. [Free State supports.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Gauteng?

Mr E M SOGONI: Gauteng supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): KwaZulu-Natal?

Mr Z C NTULI: KwaZulu-Natal supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Limpopo?

Ms H F MATLANYANE: Limpopo ri khou tenda. [Limpopo agrees.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Mpumalanga?

Ms M P THEMBA: Mpumalanga supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Northern Cape?

Ms P HOLLANDER: Northern Cape supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): North West?

Mr Z S KOLWENI: North West supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Western Cape?

Mr N MACK: Western Cape supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): All nine provinces have voted in favour. I declare the report adopted.

Mr A WATSON: Chairperson, on a point of order could you please allow me to put to this House that all the delegations have now voted in favour of this report, but none of the members of the DA who were on all nine delegations were ever consulted. To our notion, so were none of the legislatures consulted to get a mandate on such an important matter.

I would ask you, Chair, to investigate this matter, because the delegations have deliberately misled the House by saying that the delegations are in favour. The opposition members and the other members of delegations were not given an opportunity to voice their opinion, let alone their objections. I ask you to investigate this.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Well, it’s not a question of investigation. I can rule on that matter right now.

It is not the duty of the presiding officers to deal with that matter. It’s a matter for the Whips to deal with, and I request you to deal with that matter at that level so that this doesn’t happen again.

Secondly, this is a section 65 matter, and was voted on according to provinces.

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Chairperson, can I address you on this point of order raised by my colleague, hon Watson? Let him speak on behalf of Mpumalanga, Chairperson, and not include everybody because he is not representing delegates from all provinces. Let him speak on behalf of Mpumalanga, Chairperson.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J MAHLANGU): Thank you, Kgoshi Mokoena. That is exactly what I’m saying, that we have voted in terms of the provinces and that the report is agreed to.

PROTOCOL TO THE AFRICAN CHARTER ON HUMAN AND PEOPLE’S RIGHTS ON THE RIGHTS OF WOMEN IN AFRICA

            (Consideration of Report of Select Committee)

Mr S SHICEKA: Deputy Chairperson, the former president of the ANC, Oliver Reginald Magegwana Tambo, stated that South Africa cannot be free if the women of our country are not free, because they are the majority.

The same is true and can be said of our African continent. It is in that context that I am presenting this draft Protocol to the African Charter on Human and People’s Rights on The Rights of Women in Africa.

We as a country are slowly but surely ensuring that our values, our norms of democracy and human rights are shared with our counterparts on the African continent. This position was initiated by our glorious movement, the ANC, supported by the South African society and adopted by the African Union General Assembly on 11 July 2003 in Maputo, Mozambique.

The African Charter on Human and People’s Rights recognises the importance of women’s rights by way of the following three objectives: Article 2, the nondiscrimination clause, provides that the rights and freedoms enshrined in the charter shall be enjoyed by all, irrespective of race, ethnic group, colour, sex, language, religion, political and any other opinion, national and social origin, fortune, birth or other status; article 3, the equal protection clause, states that every individual shall be equal before the law and shall be entitled to the equal protection of the law; and article 18(3) provides for the protection of the family, promises to ensure the elimination of all forms of discrimination against women and also ensures the protection of the rights of women.

Deputy Chairperson, the protocol guarantees women a wider range of civil and political rights, as well as economic, social and cultural rights by obliging the state parties to integrate a gender perspective in their policy decisions, legislation and development plans, and to ensure the overall wellbeing of women.

You will agree with me, Chairperson, that these values are the values that we have fought for as South Africa, and that these are the values that we are selling to and engaging our African continent on.

The question then is: What mechanisms have been agreed upon to monitor these values? The monitoring mechanism in this case states that state parties that are party to the protocol commit themselves among other things: Firstly to, indicate in their periodic reports to the African commission the legislative and other measures undertaken to ensure the full realisation of these rights recognised in this protocol; secondly, include in national constitutions and other legislative instruments these fundamental principles and to ensure their effective implementation; thirdly to integrate a gender perspective in their policy decisions, legislation, development plans and other activities in order to ensure the overall wellbeing of women; and fourthly, to take effective measures to prevent the exploitation and abuse of women in advertising and pornography.

Chairperson, having considered the protocol, the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs recommends that this august House supports it.

I want to conclude by saying, Chairperson, that when you empower a man, you empower an individual, but when you empower a woman, you empower a nation. Thank you. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Thank you, hon member. That concludes the debate. I shall now put the question. The question is that the report be adopted. As the decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether all the delegation heads are present. It seems members are all present in the Chamber.

In accordance with Rule 71, I shall allow provinces an opportunity to make their declarations of vote, if they want to. Is there any province that wishes to make a declaration? Since there is none, we shall proceed to voting on the question. I shall do this in alphabetical order per province. Delegation heads must indicate to the Chair whether they vote in favour or against or whether they abstain from voting. Eastern Cape?

Ms B N DLULANE: In favour.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Free State?

Mrs S E MABE: We agree.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Gauteng?

Mr E M SOGONI: Siyayixhasa. [We support it.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): KwaZulu-Natal?

Mr Z C NTULI: We vote in favour.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Limpopo?

Ms H F MATLANYANE: Ons steun. [We support.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Mpumalanga?

Ms M P THEMBA: IMpumalanga iyawuxhasa. [We support it.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Northern Cape?

Ms P HOLLANDER: We agree.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): North West?

Mr Z S KOLWENI: Ke ya rona. [We support.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Western Cape?

Mr N MACK: Ons steun. [We support.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): All nine provinces have voted in favour. I therefore declare the report adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

                          FAREWELL SPEECHES

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Hon members, I would now like to afford members an opportunity to bid each other farewell. Each member has been allocated three minutes to make a farewell speech.

Mr A WATSON: Chair, I hope we can end on a lighter note. Most of the year- end speeches in any organisation are mostly aimed at pleasing everybody. One mostly says things that the other person would like to hear. I have saved up my tears all week long in anticipation of the hon Sinclair’s praise singing of the ANC and character bashing of DA members.

Vandag is natuurlik slegs die einde van ‘n gedeelte van die jaar, en die ou hande in dié Huis het reeds in April hul tranetrekker-afskeidsboodskappe gelewer - anders as die agb Sinclair wat ontpop het as ‘n selfaangestelde verkenner, soos van ouds, en dan nog boonop hom van alles wat sy ANC- meesters … Tussenwerpsels.

[Today is just the end of part of the year, of course, and the old hands in this House have already delivered their tear-jerking farewell speeches in April in contrast to the hon Sinclair who has emerged as a self-appointed scout, as in the past, and then everything that his ANC masters … [Interjections.]]

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, could we ensure that there is interpretation. I wouldn’t like to miss this Christmas farewell speech of the hon member.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): I have already requested that and unfortunately, I cannot stand up from the Chair and check whether people are interpreting. Could the Secretary do something about this? I will give a half-minute injury time to you, hon Watson.

Mr A WATSON: Thank you very much, Chair. I will attempt to interpret into Siswati later on when I see my Chief Whip again. [Laughter.]

Ek was besig om te sê dat anders as die agb Sinclair, wat ontpop het as ‘n selfaangestelde verkenner van alles wat sy ANC-meesters mag bedreig. [I was saying that unlike the hon Sinclair, who has emerged as a self-appointed scout with regard to everything that may threaten his ANC masters.]

Ek wil dus eerder kyk na wat verander het sedert die verkiesing, en ek wil glo dat almal – selfs die ANC-NNP-alliansie - sal moet erken dat die tien lede van die DA, waarvan nege nuwelinge is, hul teenwoordigheid deeglik bevestig het.(Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[I would therefore rather look at what has changed since the election, and I would like to believe that all of us – including the ANC-NNP alliance – would have to admit that the ten members of the DA, of whom nine are novices, have made their presence felt.]

We must admit, however, that the ANC is firmly in the seat with just under 65% of the total permanent delegates in this House. The exception is the Western Cape where things are a bit on the edge of a knife. But the exceptions of power, we must admit, undoubtedly go hand in hand with responsibility.

I am reminded of a piece of folklore I was told many years ago. The story is about a very wise old man who always knew the right answers. A group of young rebels decided that they would challenge his claim to wisdom and said that their leader had a question that the wise old man could never possibly answer. A young man stood up, held his fist high in the sky and said to the wise man: “In my hand I have an insect. The question to you is: Is the insect dead or alive?” Of course the obvious was evident. If the old man said the insect was dead, the young man would just open his hand and the insect would fly away. If he said it was alive, he would simply crush it in his powerful hand. But the wise man, shrewd as he was and true to his wisdom, answered as follows. He said: “My strong young friend, with your power you have the future of the little insect in your hand. It is you who can decide to crush it and destroy it forever. Or you could perhaps decide to let it go free to serve its purpose in life to the fullest.”

I truly trust that at the end of this year we will all remember the sweet little story in all our own future endeavours, especially when we are in positions of power. We have certainly had our differences as parties and individuals. But, it has also been a pleasure to work with all of you and to experience some new things in life with you. It has also been a pleasure to get to know some of you on a more personal basis.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Mr Watson, your time has expired. Please finish.

Mr A WATSON: My wish is that we will all enjoy a break after attending to our constituency duties. May the wonderful message of Christmas, a message of tolerance, love and goodwill find its way into your homes and hearts!

Tsamayang ka kgotso, ka pula le nala.[Peace, rain and prosperity.]

Ngiyabonga, Sihlalo. [Ihlombe.][Thank you, Chair.] [Applause.]]

Mr K SINCLAIR: Chairperson…

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Hon members, I hope we are making farewell speeches, not political speeches.

Mr K SINCLAIR: Chairperson, I was on my way towards making a farewell speech but some little DA member stood in my path. We are here as a net result of democracy that took place on 14 April 2004. Our mere existence here is a result of that. We must treasure this wonderful thing that we call democracy. When we reflect on 2004, the time will come where we will say that 2004 was indeed a very crucial year in the history of our country.

There was one incident that took place during this time that sketched the situation in our country. This was when a white member from a so-called black party protected his interests against a black member from a so-called white party. The reality is that that’s very positive. We are reaching a stage in South Africa where democracy is deracialised. In terms of that dimension, this was a crucial year.

The NNP played a major role in achieving deracialisation in South Africa. This did not only happen just this year but from 1994 and through the February 1990 speech of Mr De Klerk. It is very easy for hon members to come here and call others names. Not so long ago, I was called a “kruiper” by one of those hon members over there. She used very strong language. Now, I have been told I am serving a master. I disagree. The people who really know me know that I will never “kruip” before anybody. But, I am here on the principle that I accepted the Freedom Charter of the ANC. I am not ashamed of that. [Interjections.] [Applause.]

Regarding the lessons that we learnt, we are about eight parties in this House yet, some of these parties only learnt lessons this year. One party learnt that it is one thing to pretend to be a bull terrier, but it’s another matter to come out as a toothless Chihuahua - this was the DA. [Laughter.]

There is another party that realised that my mother’s daughter, my sister, if I should bring her here to Parliament, is going to rock the basis of our party and that is the ID. There is also a party that realised that if you forever shout “freedom, freedom” and then you change the borders of the volkstaat, people will lose interest in you. Then, for Baba uMzizi, it seems that it is better inside the kraal than outside. [Laughter.]

I want to conclude this wonderful year by saying that we have a wonderful country and wonderful people who live in it. I want to thank the leadership, the chairperson, the deputy chairperson, the Whippery and also the staff of this institution who helped us through this year. A wonderful Christmas for all of us, the DA included! [Laughter.] A very prosperous year for all of us, but not for the DA! [Laughter.] [Applause.]

Mrs J N VILAKAZI: Chairperson and colleagues, the NCOP is one body. No matter how divided we may be politically, we belong together in this important House of Parliament. We have enjoyed and shared sentiments together, whether bitter or sweet.

On behalf of the IFP, I wish you all a merry Christmas and a prosperous New Year in 2005! Have a safe journey home and all the best to your families!

Ndlela nhle! Izilokotho ezinhle zikaKhisimusi. Niphumule kahle! Siyethemba ukuthi siyobonana ngonyaka ozayo, u-2005. Ngiyabonga. [Ihlombe.][Farewell! Best wishes for Christmas. Have a good rest. We hope to meet next year,

1. Thank you. [Applause.]]

Mrs A N D QIKANE: Chairperson and hon members, we have arrived at the end of the first year of the third democratic Parliament of South Africa. It seems like only moments ago when we were sworn in. Despite the short duration of this session of the term, we have been very busy. Partly, we had to do some catching up because the new Parliament only commenced in the middle of the year. In addition, many of us are new to this institution and we have had to find our feet very quickly.

Above and beyond our legislative duties, we have, as a House, travelled to a number of provinces taking Parliament to the people. I believe that these visits have been highly successful. But, the true measure of their success will be to what extent the issues that were raised in the provinces are reflected in the work we do here.

The relevance of this House to participatory democracy has often been questioned. It is our duty to prove the relevance of our work. Firstly, we must remain vigilant when considering Bills referred to us by the National Assembly. Secondly, we must extend our ability to represent the needs and aspirations of provinces that we represent here. Thirdly, we should not hesitate to exercise our oversight role over the executive. In addition to all of these important duties, we have barely begun to deepen the level of public participation in our activities.

I want to wish all my colleagues a peaceful and restful holiday spent with family and friends. I wish all members a merry Christmas! I thank you. [Applause.]

Rev E ADOLPH: Thank you, hon Chairperson and members of this unique House. I will pray later. Before I give you farewell words, I just need to give you some food for thought for the recess and holidays.

If you look into the eyes and the faces of those who suffer - the street children, the homeless, the jobless and the unemployed - you will see something reflected, which says cry for me, help me, do justice to me so that I can also be a recipient of our new-found democracy of the past 10 years.

I want to challenge each and every one of us. I have learnt a lot throughout this year in the NCOP. We’ve made friends. Some of these people might be friends, some might be strangers, some might be comrades, yes, and others might be the opposition individuals or collectives. However, I want to leave you with this thought: Isn’t it, perhaps, the best time now to take up the challenges of the President, by reviewing our role and our function as the NCOP, as a House or institution of excellent service delivery?

I want to challenge each and every one to go and think hard about how we are going to rigorously implement Chapter 4(69)(a-d), to fulfil that function. We are all aware that the Expanded Public Works Programme is not working and our municipal managers, at provincial level, will fail the President in delivering on the people’s contract. I want to challenge of all you as co-operators and co-members of the NCOP to be honest with yourselves and to deliver to those needy people.

If you, the NCOP, want to become this institution known for excellent service delivery, then we have to forget about party politics. What should be of concern to us are the needs and expectations of our people. Therefore, the ID supports the President and the government of the people’s contract; but what are you doing about our people’s contract? Is it not an indictment to see the poor getting poorer and suffering even more and that we are doing nothing about it?

Look into the faces and eyes of those beggars on the streets again and challenge yourselves with the following: I’m here to serve these people, and we all fought for liberation and freedom.

Finally, I want to bid you farewell and say thank you for everyone’s friendship. We had our differences, we differed in opinions but, on top of everything else, I reiterate that I love you all. I love South Africans, you are my brothers and you are my sisters, the people out there are our brothers and our sisters and we are a caring community.

Let’s then strive, in the spirit mood of ubuntu, to care for our people. Have a very nice festive season, enjoy Christmas and have a prosperous new year. I thank you.

Mr J O TLHAGALE: Thank you, hon Chair and hon members of this august House. Saying farewell, as usual, brings about mixed feelings. One is usually looking forward, with anxiety to a homeward journey and to those people whom one loves. At the same time, one also finds it difficult to part easily with those friends whom one got accustomed to living with.

We have lived together as members of a broad family and, in spite of our different political affiliations, we have learned to work together and to love each other. We shall, undoubtedly, miss each other in the next one and a half months, but the thought that it will be for a short period will keep us going.

We are proud of our leadership in the NCOP: The Chairperson, a very strict and energetic lady, whose first priority is work; the Deputy Chairperson, a gentle and down to earth man of unequalled benevolence; and the Chief Whip, our friend and colleague, who listens to our problems with understanding. I also recognise the Chairperson of Committees as a less talkative person, together with her deputy, whom I see as a hard to crack political activist. [Laughter.]

As we take leave of one another today, I wish to thank the staff of the NCOP, the secretary and other support staff, for their meritorious service and devotion to work, and want to wish every one of us a happy Christmas period and a prosperous new year. May the good Lord bless you until we meet again. Thanks. [Applause.]

Dr F J VAN HEERDEN: Thank you, Chairperson. I have been in this House now for the last five months, together with some of my other colleagues who also came from the National Assembly some time ago. I think I’m now in a position to reflect on the comparison between the two places.

This is a much better place. [Applause.] In all fairness, it’s more relaxed, it’s smaller and it’s friendlier than the other place. However, I think this Chamber or Council should take the lead. There is something in the National Assembly that I think we should point out to the National Assembly. If you face the entrance to the National Assembly or when you exit the National Assembly, one observes that the flags hanging from the side of Tuynhuys are upside down. Why? On the other side, they are hanging correctly. Our flags here are absolutely correct. There, they are upside down. [Laughter.]

It’s true. I’m not joking. The blue should be at the bottom and the red should be on top. Just look at that. A certain Mr Van Walbeek, a Dutch person, pointed this out to me and I was really embarrassed. I think we should take the lead to put that right. Let this Council then take the lead to rectify the mistakes of the National Assembly.

Further, I noticed that the coats of arms of the different provinces are in here, and that’s the reason why I sit there, right underneath the Free State. [Laughter.]

Then I would like to get back to Mr Sinclair. I don’t know whether you’ve observed this, Mr Sinclair, but at that stage, I was still a part of the now deceased NP. I’m now a member of the FF, and what a change for the better. [Laughter.] You referred to our policy of the sacred place. If you look around, Mr Sinclair, you will see that there are the nine coats of arms for the nine provinces. There’s one vacant space. Just bear in mind that they are working on this. [Laughter.] [Applause.] Just look around.

Finally, I’m going to promote this, and I did not discuss it with any of my Free State colleagues. Now that everybody is going back to his or her respective province, I think what would be very good for this place, the NCOP, is the possibility of each province having its own flag hanging just below the coats of arms. I think that would be something to consider.

I wish the hon members everything of the best and good luck. I associate myself with the best wishes of all the others. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr M O ROBINSON: Hon Deputy Chairperson and the hon members of the NCOP, there seems to be an affair going on between the NP and the DA at the back there.

It’s sometimes very nice to speak last, in case some of the other parties said something that you can also say. In this case, it doesn’t really happen. So, that’s one of the disadvantages.

We have reached the end of what, indeed, was a very important and eventful year. Not only did we celebrate our tenth year of democracy, but we also successfully conducted our third democratic elections. Obviously, it was a bit more successful for some parties than for others.

The elections reconfirmed and provided without any doubt, the mandate that we received from the voters to alleviate poverty and to create jobs. The elections and the programme of the NCOP, therefore, ensured that members of Parliament had a very productive and hard-working year.

This time of the year necessitates that we reflect on what we did, not only as an institution, but also as individuals. While each of us needs to reflect on our personal contributions to the improvement of the quality of life for all South Africans, we in the ANC believe that this House’s work made great strides in positively impacting on the lives of South Africans.

One of the highlights would be the weeklong sitting of the NCOP in KwaZulu- Natal. This clearly embodied the vision of the People’s Parliament. In so doing, we make Parliament accessible to the people and communities whom, otherwise, would find it very difficult to interact with Parliament.

It would be literally impossible for this institution to function without the many people behind the scenes, who ensure the smooth running of the machinery. We would like to thank the Secretary to Parliament and all parliamentary staff for their hard work, and the committee staff for their role in making sure that committees meet their mandates. To our secretaries, our administrators and the service officers we also need to say a special word of thanks for the efficient and friendly service that we received from them.

Last but not least, we would like to thank the Chairperson, the Deputy Chairperson and our Chief Whip of the NCOP for the leadership that they provided to the members. To all members of the NCOP, no matter from which side of the House you are, it is true that at times we have very robust debates in this House. As long as we can keep our eye on the ball and not play the man or woman, we will all succeed in doing our electorate proud. We should never forget that although we differ politically, as long as we can respect each other and leave the animosities and differences inside the House, we will, as a collective, be able to look back and say we did our best.

As we leave, first, for a very important constituency period during which we must take back to the people the programmes that will empower them, and thereafter, a well deserved break with our families over the festive season, let us all drive safely to our various destinations and come back in the new year, refreshed and invigorated to proudly serve our people through the mandate that we received from them at the elections.

Hambani kahle. Tsamayang hantle. Goodbye. Totsiens. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Mr M J Mahlangu): Hon members those were the farewell speeches from all the political parties. It is now 18:40. I know you want to go and catch your flights and go home, but could you also allow me a word on behalf of the Presiding Officers, I will be very brief.

Hon members I feel very proud and happy to say that I have seen you at work since after the elections that were held in May. You have been working very hard, it has not been easy, the programme has been quite full, we have quite a number of new members and some of us are still battling to understand the rules and grappling with the work in the NCOP because of its nature as an institution and its uniqueness. But I appreciate that all of you had come on board very quickly. It is not easy to function in this institution because of your numbers and the load of work that you have to carry.

As the House representing the provinces I wish to plead with all the members to take a keen interest in the provincial matters and put those above our political issues. We have to go back down to make sure that delivery of services takes place on the ground. And this is the work that you are expected to do as members. Now is the time to go closer to our homes and our families, to work hard on the ground to make sure that the lives of the people are being made better on the ground, but also to take a little time to rest and spend time with your family.

I can guarantee you that the programme next year is going to be even more packed than it was this year, not just because of the local government elections but we are changing the whole strategy of working in terms of Vision 2009 to get you working more on the ground than in the Chamber. So the programme is going to be very packed, you should better make use of those few days to rest because when we come back in January it is going to be tough for all of us.

May I once more emphasise the fact, which I alluded to earlier, that there is nothing wrong with politicians differing and making the debate heated in the House but the decorum of the House comes first. We still have to respect each other and make this a debating forum for genuine issues and remain sensible all the time and by respecting each other as members of this institution. We must remember that all members have freedom of speech in this House and that the Chair protects all members. These rules and conventions that we have developed ourselves have to be respected all the time, so that the public out there who are watching us will respect us.

May I make this announcement, which is not a nice one. I did indicate to you that the Chairperson was off sick yesterday and that she has been hospitalised. She is in hospital in Johannesburg, but I am told she is improving and on behalf of this House you would agree with me that we wish her well and a speedy recovery. I will visit her at the hospital sometime tomorrow and the evening of Friday.

May I take this opportunity also to thank the Chief Whip who has been very instrumental with all the other whips whom he leads in driving the work of this institution and assisting the Presiding Officers to make this House carry out its duties on a day-to-day basis - I thank you Chief Whip. I know it has not been easy for you, it has been hard work but that is precisely the reason all of us are here. You have steered this ship with us to a safe destination and I think we have reached our journey very safely at the end of this year 2004. At times the waves have been very strong and at times the waves have been calm but we managed to steer the ship in the right direction because we are operating within the rules prescribed to us by the Constitution. I wish to thank the table staff because I know you work hard on a day-to-day basis to make the institution function.

Thank you to the Chairperson and Deputy Chairperson of Committees. Those committees are the engine rooms of our institution and you have shown us your leadership in guiding them and making them function properly. I wish to thank all those who chair those committees - you have once more made us very proud, that even in times of difficulties you go the extra mile to steer those committees to deliver the results that we expect as an institution. Many people would want to be paid for working extra hours but I have been highly impressed by the report I received from the Chairperson and Deputy Chairperson of Committees regarding every programming committee with respect to the wonderful work that all of you are doing.

May I thank all the hon members for your discipline at work, thank you very much. That is what makes us work as a team and that is what steers us all the time and motivates us to do our work as public representatives. Thank you to the programme technical committee and in particular the programming whip Mr Sulliman - if it were not for your help in putting the programme right for this institution we would have not operated the way we did. Thank you very much for the work you have done.

Dr Van Heerden, the coat of arms for KwaZulu-Natal has fortunately been finalised. It has taken more than 10 years to finalise that coat of arms. I plead with the Secretary to the Council to try and finalise it now so that when we come back we don’t have that open space the coat but instead of arms of KwaZulu-Natal. And thank you for the remark you made about the flags which are upside down. I hope it doesn’t make the people upside down there, but I think you have actually made us aware of one thing that none of us realised.

Mr Tlhagale and Mr Robinson thank you for the kind words. We normally don’t expect to be thanked as Presiding Officers, because we know that from where we sit we have to take unpopular decisions. Therefore people normally don’t say thank you to us, because we cause problems when we take those unpopular decisions. But thank you very much, you have motivated us as leadership, both the Chairperson and myself, and we definitely appreciate that.

And thank you to all of you. As the Rev Adolph said: I love you all. Enjoy your Christmas and take time to be with your kids because they need you, as they haven’t seen you for a long time. Take them for a holiday, if you can, for a week or even just for a weekend. I am sure you have extra money that you can spend on your family somewhere. They have been detained in those houses for the whole year. You have visited all the provinces. Just take them out to one province. I intend going to KwaZulu-Natal and just spend a week there with my family. But please during this recess don’t call me; I will call you. [Laughter.]

The Council adjourned at 18:50. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS


                     WEDNESDAY, 17 NOVEMBER 2004

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. Bills passed by Houses - to be submitted to President for assent

 (1)    Bills passed by National Council of Provinces on 17 November
     2004:


     (i)     National Small Business Amendment Bill [B 23B - 2004]
          (National Assembly - sec 75)


     (ii)    Water Services Amendment Bill [B 17 - 2004] (National
          Assembly - sec 75)


     (iii)   Revenue Laws Amendment Bill [B 24 -2004] (National
          Assembly - sec 77)


     (iv)    Second Revenue Laws Amendment Bill [B 25 -2004] (National
          Assembly - sec 75)


     (v)     Adjustments Appropriation Bill [B 21 - 2004] (National
          Assembly - sec 77)

1. Translations of Bills submitted

 (1)    The Minister of Trade and Industry


     (i)     Nasionale Kleinsakewysigingswetsontwerp [W 23 - 2004]
          (National Assembly - sec 75)

     This is the official translation into Afrikaans of the National
     Small Business Amendment Bill [B 23 - 2004] (National Assembly -
     sec 75).

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Minister of Finance

 (a)    Report and Financial Statements of the Registrar of Pension
     Funds for 2003.

 (b)    Exhange of Letters between the Government of the Republic of
     South Africa and the Government of the People's Republic of China
     concerning the provision of water supply materials [No. 198],
     tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution of the
     Republic of South Africa, 1996 (Act No 108 of 1996).

 (c)    Explanatory Memorandum on the Exchange of Letters between the
     Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of
     the People's Republic of China concerning the provision of water
     supply materials [No. 198].

 (d)    Exhange of Letters between the Government of the Republic of
     South Africa and the Government of the Federal Republic of Germany
     concerning the decentralised development planning programme [No.
     141], tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution of the
     Republic of South Africa, 1996 (Act No 108 of 1996).


 (e)    Explanatory Memorandum on the Exhange of Letters between the
     Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of
     the Federal Republic of Germany concerning the decentralised
     development planning programme [No. 141].

 (f)    Exhange of Letters between the Government of the Republic of
     South Africa and the Government of the People's Republic of China
     concerning the Implementation of a Human Resources Project [No.
     579], tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution of the
     Republic of South Africa, 1996 (Act No 108 of 1996).

 (g)    Explanatory Memorandum on the Exhange of Letters between the
     Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of
     the People's Republic of China concerning the Implementation of a
     Human Resources Project [No. 579].

 (h)    Programme Grand Agreement between the Global Fund to Fight Aids,
     TB and Malaria and the Government of the Republic of South Africa:
     Strengthening national capacity for treatment, care and support
     related to HIV and TB, building on successful behaviour change
     initiatives in South Africa (SAF-102-G02-C-00) [No. 480], tabled
     in terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution of the Republic of
     South Africa, 1996 (Act No 108 of 1996).

 (i)    Explanatory Memorandum on the Programme Grand Agreement between
     the Global Fund to Fight Aids, TB and Malaria and the Government
     of the Republic of South Africa: Strengthening national capacity
     for treatment, care and support related to HIV and TB, building on
     successful behaviour change initiatives in South Africa (SAF-102-
     G02-C-00) [No. 480].

 (j)    Programme Grand Agreement between the Global Fund to Fight Aids,
     TB and Malaria and the Government of the Republic of South Africa:
     Enhancing the care of HIV/AIDS infected and affected patients in
     resource - constrained settings in Kwazulu-Natal (SAF-102-G03-C-
     00) [No 462], tabled in terms of section 231(3) of the
     Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, 1996 (Act No 108 of
     1996).

 (k)    Explanatory Memorandum on the Programme Grand Agreement between
     the Global Fund to Fight Aids, TB and Malaria and the Government
     of the Republic of South Africa: Enhancing the care of HIV/AIDS
     infected and affected patients in resource - constrained settings
     in Kwazulu-Natal (SAF-102-G03-C-00) [No 462].

 (l)    Agreement between the Government of the Republic of South Africa
     and the Government of the Republic of Germany concerning financial
     co-operation for 2001-2002 [No. 612], tabled in terms of section
     231(3) of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, 1996
     (Act No 108 of 1996).

 (m)    Explanatory Memorandum on the Agreement between the Government
     of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the Republic
     of Germany concerning financial co-operation for 2001-2002 [No.
     612].

 (n)    Programme Grand Agreement between the Global Fund to Fight Aids,
     TB and Malaria and the Government of the Republic of South Africa:
     Strengthening national capacity for treatment, care and support
     related to HIV and TB, building on successful behaviour change
     initiatives in South Africa (SAF-102-G01-C-00) [No. 479], tabled
     in terms of section 231(3) of the Constitution of the Republic of
     South Africa, 1996 (Act No 108 of 1996).

 (o)    Explanatory Memorandum on the Programme Grand Agreement between
     the Global Fund to Fight Aids, TB and Malaria and the Government
     of the Republic of South Africa: Strengthening national capacity
     for treatment, care and support related to HIV and TB, building on
     successful behaviour change initiatives in South Africa (SAF-102-
     G01-C-00) [No. 479].

1. The Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development

 (a)    Proclamation No R.49 published in Government Gazette No 26905
     dated 18 October 2004: Referral of matters to existing Special
     Investigating Unit and Special Tribunal, in terms of the Special
     Investigating Units and Special Tribunals Act, 1995 (Act No 74 of
     1996).

 (b)    Proclamation No R.50 published in Government Gazette No 26912
     dated 20 October 2004: Referral of matters to existing Special
     Investigating Unit and Special Tribunal, in terms of the Special
     Investigating Units and Special Tribunals Act, 1995 (Act No 74 of
     1996).

 (c)    Proclamation No R.51 published in Government Gazette No 26912
     dated 20 October 2004: Referral of matters to existing Special
     Investigating Unit and Special Tribunal, in terms of the Special
     Investigating Units and Special Tribunals Act, 1995 (Act No 74 of
     1996).

 (d)    Proclamation No R.52 published in Government Gazette No 26912
     dated 20 October 2004: Referral of matters to existing Special
     Investigating Unit and Special Tribunal, in terms of the Special
     Investigating Units and Special Tribunals Act, 1995 (Act No 74 of
     1996).

COMMITTEE REPORTS

National Council of Provinces

1. Report of the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs on Draft Notice on Remuneration of Judges, dated 17 November 2004:

   The Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs, having considered the request for approval by Parliament of the Draft Notice on Remuneration of Judges in terms of the Judges’ Remuneration and Condition of Employment Act, 2001 (Act No. 47 of 2001), referred to it, recommends that the Council, in terms of section 2(4) of the Act, approve the said Draft Notice.

 Report to be considered.

1. Report of the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs on Draft Notice on Remuneration of Magistrates, dated 17 November 2004:

   The Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs, having considered the request for approval by Parliament of the Draft Notice on Remuneration of Magistrates in terms of the Magistrates Act, 1993 (Act No. 90 of 1993), referred to it, recommends that the Council, in terms of section 12(3) of the Act, approve the said Draft Notice.

 Report to be considered.

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