National Assembly - 02 June 2005
THURSDAY, 2 JUNE 2005 __
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
____
The House met at 14:02.
Acting Deputy Speaker Mr G Q M Doidge took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.
NOTICES OF MOTION
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Acting Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that I intend moving the following substantive motion:
That –
(1) in the light of the following facts and judgment earlier today by Justice Squires this House has no confidence in the Deputy President of the Republic of South Africa, the hon Jacob Zuma.
The Deputy President violated section 96(2) of the Constitution,
which states that:
Members of the Cabinet may not –
(b) act in any way that is inconsistent with their office, or
expose themselves to any situation involving the risk of a
conflict between their official responsibilities and
private interests; or
(c) use their position or any information entrusted to them,
to enrich themselves or improperly benefit any other
person;
(2) furthermore, the Deputy President misled Parliament –
(i) firstly, when he failed to declare received benefits from
Mr Shaik to the registrar of members’ interests and to the
Cabinet secretary;
(ii) when he told the parliamentary ethics committee in 2003
that payments he received from Mr Shaik were interest-
bearing loans and therefore not a benefit;
(iii) when he responded to a parliamentary question on 13 March
2003 by stating that he had not met with Thompson-CSF’s
Alain Thetard; and
(iv) the Deputy President misled the nation in an official
statement in August 2003 when he said:
I have said before and I repeat that I have never
attempted to solicit a bribe. I have never used my
public office to advance the private business interests
of any person. I have never discussed with Schabir or
anyone else, for that matter, the issue of protecting
Thompson/Thales, or any other company or individual
from the investigation of the joint investigation team;
and
3) I will therefore move that this House has no confidence in the
Deputy President and that he should resign forthwith.
[Interjections.]
If he fails to do so, the President should dismiss him.
[Interjections.][Applause.]
The ACTING DEPUTY SPEAKER (Mr G Q M Doidge): Order! The substantive motion will be submitted to the Speaker for the necessary action to be taken.
Mrs Z A KOTA: Acting Deputy Speaker, on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House –
(i) debate the current wave of protests engulfing various
municipalities in the country; and
(ii) is more concerned that the situation is characterised by
violence and lawlessness, perpetuated by members of those
communities.
I thank you. [Applause.]
NOTICE OF MOTION
Dr C P MULDER: Agb Mnr die Waarnemende Speaker, ek gee hiermee kennis dat ek op die volgende sittingsdag namens die VF Plus sal voorstel:
Dat die Huis –
1) dringend ‘n debat voer oor die klaarblyklike belangebotsings
voortspruitend uit betalings aan naby verwante van die Ministers
van Minerale en Energie en Maatskaplike Ontwikkeling op 18 en 19
Desember 2003, en in die besonder die betalings van;
a) R50 000 aan Uluntu Investments van mnr Bonga Mlambo;
b) R65 000 vir verbeterings deur die konstruksiemaatskappy
Hartkon aan die privaatwoonhuis van die agb Minister van
Maatskaplike Ontwikkeling; en
c) R11 miljoen aan die ANC deur mnr Sandi Majali van Imvume
Investments. (Translation of Afrikaans notice of motion.)
[Dr C P MULDER: Hon Acting Deputy Speaker, on the nest sitting day I shall move on behalf of the FF Plus:
That the House –
1) urgently debates the apparent conflicts of interest pursuant to
payments to close relatives of the Ministers of Minerals and Energy
and of Social Development on 18 and 19 December 2003, and in
particular the payment of;
a) R50 000 to the company Uluntu Investments of Mr Bonga Mlambo;
b) R65 000 with regard to improvements by the
construction company Hartkon to the private residence of
the hon Minister of Social Development; and
c) R11 million to the ANC by Mr Sandi Majali of Imvume
Investments.]
Mr M STEPHENS: Acting Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice on behalf of the UDM that I will move during the next sitting of this House:
That the House –
(1) notes the commitment of some South Africans to change the name
of the nation’s executive capital city;
(2) notes the equal passion of others to retain the name of Pretoria;
(3) notes also the sentiments expressed by the President during the debate on his Budget Vote relating to the change of place names;
(4) states that the name of the executive capital of South Africa is a matter of national importance and identity; and
(5) requests the Minister of Arts and Culture – (a) to invite suggestions for the name of South Africa’s executive capital from South Africans nationwide;
(b) to facilitate a national consensus-seeking consultative process
on the matter; and
(c) to decide on the city’s name only at the conclusion thereof.
I thank you.
Ms P BHENGU: Acting Deputy Speaker, on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:
That the House debates the role played by the sphere of local government in the last decade in enhancing participatory democracy, economic development and nation-building, and how they form an appropriate framework for an even more peaceful and prosperous second decade.
I thank you. [Applause.]
Dr M SEFULARO: Acting Deputy Speaker, on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:
That the House debates the broad-based black economic empowerment and the Freedom Charter, or the progress made in creating opportunities for the young people of our country across all sectors in the national, international and global context.
Thank you very much.
RETIREMENT OF CHIEF JUSTICE CHASKALSON
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Acting Deputy Speaker, I move without notice:
That the House –
1) notes the retirement of Chief Justice Judge Arthur Chaskalson from
active service as the head of our judiciary on 31 May 2005;
2) recognises that Chief Justice Judge Arthur Chaskalson was admitted
to the Johannesburg Bar in May 1956 and took silk in July 1971 and,
as a young lawyer, was part of the defence team during the famous
treason trials;
3) recalls that he consistently used his enormous talents to assist
freedom fighters against the apartheid state machinery;
4) further notes that in 1978 he helped establish the Legal Resources
Centre, a nonprofit organisation that seeks to use the law to
pursue justice and human rights in South Africa, and that he was
its director from November 1978 until September 1993, and was
leading counsel in several cases in which the centre launched
challenges against apartheid laws;
(5) acknowledges that, as the country’s first leader of the Constitutional Court, he has led the way in transforming our jurisprudence from one based on systematic discrimination to one based on the spirit of the Constitution;
(6) realises that he has helped to significantly transform our society into one that values freedom and equality for all within a single pursuit of restored dignity and fraternity;
(7) salutes Chief Justice Judge Arthur Chaskalson for his distinguished achievements, including being the vice-chairperson of the International Legal Aid Division of the International Bar Association from 1983 until 1993, currently being the President of the International Commission of Jurists and a member of the Academy of Science of South Africa;
(8) notes that in 2001 he was appointed by the UN as an ad hoc judge of the criminal tribunal for the former Yugoslavia;
(9) commends Chief Justice Judge Arthur Chaskalson for being appointed in June 1994 by President Mandela as first president of South Africa’s new Constitutional Court; and
10) expresses on behalf of South Africa its deep gratitude for a
lifetime of service and dedication in the pursuit of freedom and
justice.
[Applause.]
Agreed to.
RULE 253(1) SUSPENDED
(Draft Resolution)
The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Acting Deputy Speaker, I move without notice:
That Rule 253(1) be suspended for the purposes of conducting the Second Reading debate on the Sectional Titles Amendment Bill.
Agreed to.
MEMBERS’ STATEMENTS
HOUSES BUILT BY ANC GOVERNMENT
(Member’s Statement)
Mrs X C MAKASI (ANC): Acting Deputy Speaker, in this, the 50th year celebration of the Freedom Charter I want to use this platform to thank the ANC-led government for building quality houses.
The laws that are passed in this House have a direct impact . . . [Interjections.] . . . on the lives of citizens who never had houses. People have assets for the first time in their lives. We urge our people to be patient, as it is one of the principles of the ANC to make a better life for all, especially people in the Western Cape - not forgetting that we, as the ANC, are in government in this province for the first time. We had a plan and when the DA was in power they removed our plan. [Interjections.]
We hope that Comrade Lindiwe Sisulu will fulfil the wishes and desires of our grandparents, as well as ours, which are key to the Freedom Charter, namely that all the people shall have houses and security. Thank you. [Applause.]
VERDICT IN SCHABIR SHAIK TRIAL
(Member’s Statement)
Mrs S M CAMERER (DA): Chairperson, Judge Hilary Squires’ verdict in Durban today effectively means that Deputy President Jacob Zuma, while not on trial himself, has been found guilty in absentia. [Interjections.] Deputy President Zuma’s position is now fundamentally compromised and he has become an embarrassment, not only to President Mbeki, but also to the ANC and to the country as a whole. [Interjections.]
In the light of the verdict, it is now clear that Deputy President Zuma and the accused in that case, Schabir Shaik, had a “generally corrupt relationship” and that Mr Shaik solicited a bribe on Deputy President Zuma’s behalf. In a charge of this nature, it should not be forgotten that it takes two to tango. It clearly implicates both parties in the relationship - the giver and the receiver.
As early as August 2003, the DA called on Deputy President Zuma either to resign or to vacate his office until his name was cleared. The fact that the Deputy President chose instead not only to remain in office, but also to remain silent on the charges against him, means that he has now done irreparable harm to the Presidency. The Deputy President should now take the honourable course and resign.
The view we expressed right from the outset, that the charges against Deputy President Zuma and Mr Schabir Shaik are inextricably linked, has been vindicated. In the light of the overwhelming evidence linking Deputy President Zuma to the guilty verdict, the NPA should reconsider charging him. [Interjections.] [Time expired.][Applause.]
VINDICATION OF MR ALBERT MNCWANGO
(Member’s Statement)
Mr J H VAN DER MERWE (IFP): Chairperson, I wish to state something disastrous that could befall any one of us. It is the eagerness of people to condemn others who are charged in court, but who have not yet exhausted their legal options, such as appeals.
My colleague Mr Albert Mncwango was convicted of rape and sentenced to 10 years in jail. He was then widely condemned and vilified as a criminal. Two weeks ago, however, our colleague won his appeal, not on a technical point – no, sir – but, because two High Court judges found that the complainant’s evidence was riddled with inaccuracies and inconsistencies. The High Court also found that the magistrate had seriously misdirected herself.
After his awful ordeal Mr Mncwango is today taking his seat in this House, a free and innocent man. Welcome back, Mr Albert Mncwango. [Applause.]
THE 26th ANNIVERSARY OF COSAS
(Member’s Statement)
Mr M JOHNSON (ANC): Acting Deputy Speaker, listen to this one, hon Gibson, as you were celebrating Republic Day on 31 May 1979, a very important event took place in our country. The Congress of SA Students was formed. The objective of the organisation was to further the struggle against the system of apartheid education. It filled the vacuum left by the banning of all student formations in 1977.
Today, as two days before, we proudly look back at the achievement that the generations of Cosas leaders like Ephraim Mogale, Wanto Zenzile, Shepherd Mati, among others, guided by Joe Qgabi, an ANC deployee, who had established and pioneered a leadership role in mobilising our people, young and old, men and women, black and white, behind the Freedom Charter. Their efforts shall and will never be in vain and “their blood shall continue nourishing the tree of our liberty”, to paraphrase Solomon Mahlangu.
The ANC salutes this gallant student formation on this its 26th birthday and wishes it many more years of efforts under a disciplined leadership and role models for high school students, white and black, urban and rural, men and women, in championing their day-to-day interests. It is our deep-seated belief that the nation has a duty to support this nonracial, nonsexist and democratic high school student formation in its quest for the doors of learning and culture to be opened to all. Long live Cosas! Long live young lions! [Time expired.] [Applause.]
ATTACKS OF MEN ON WOMEN AND CHILDREN IN SOUTH AFRICA
(Member’s Statement)
Mr J BICI (UDM): Chairperson, the UDM expresses its dismay at the latest statistics of femicide in South Africa, femicide being the killing of a wife or partner by the man sharing an intimate relationship with her. Last week in Cape Town alone, three such incidents took place, resulting not only in the killing of the female partners, but various bystanders and four children. In six days three men, in the course of their attacks on their wives or partners, killed 15 people.
The Medical Research Council of SA reports that South Africa has the highest femicide rate in the world. The Family and Marriage Society of SA describes family murders as being on the increase. These are disturbing trends within our fledgling democracy, taking into account the introduction of the Bill of Rights. Whilst much more research is required, certain aspects require immediate attention.
Firstly, there still appears to be an acceptance of violence in many communities as a means to resolve conflicts. Secondly, cultural and religious patriarchy is often seen by men as a justification for violence against women. Thirdly, substance abuse, especially alcohol, plays a prominent role . . .
The ACTING DEPUTY SPEAKER (Mr G Q M Doidge): Order, hon member, your time has expired.
Mr J BICI (UDM): The UDM believes that all of these should be attended to. Thank you, Chair.
CLIMATIC CHANGES FORESEEN FOR SOUTH AFRICA
(Member’s Statement)
Mnr S SIMMONS (NNP): Mnr die Voorsitter, Suid-Afrika moet hom begin voorberei op meer uiterste klimaatstoestande. Volgens syfers het die gemiddelde jaarlikse temperatuur by Kaap Agulhas van 1961 tot 1990 byvoorbeeld met 1,2˚C gestyg. Kenners waarsku dat nog meer uiterste klimaatstoestande in die komende dekades algemeen kan word. Daarby is die droë tydperke tussen buie ongetwyfeld langer, terwyl swaarder reënbuie dikwels nou uitsak.
Ontleders voorspel ook dat Suid-Afrika se reënvalsyfers binne die volgende halfeeu met 10% gaan afneem en dat gemiddelde temperature terselfdertyd met tussen een en drie grade kan styg. Die reën van die afgelope paar dae het wel ’n verskil aan ons damvlakke gemaak, maar die situasie is steeds ernstig. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[Mr S SIMMONS (NNP): Mr Chairman, South Africa must start preparing itself for more extreme climatic conditions. According to statistics, between 1961 and 1990 the average annual temperature at Cape Agulhas rose by 1,2oC. Experts have warned that even more extreme climactic conditions could become the norm in the forthcoming decades. The dry periods between rain showers have undoubtedly also become longer, while heavier showers now often occur.
Analysts also predicte that South Africa’s rainfall figures are going to decrease by 10% in the next half a century and that at the same time the average temperature may rise by between one and three degrees. The rainfall of the last couple of days has definitely made a difference to our dam levels, but the situation remains serious.]
Wise utilisation of water resources is essential for the future of our country. Our fresh water resources are already under stress. We have to start looking at long-term plans now before the situation deteriorates. We must find more water to augment the present available resources. I thank you.
COURT RULING IN SCHABIR SHAIK CASE – IMPLICATIONS FOR DEPUTY PRESIDENT
(Member’s Statement)
Rev K R J MESHOE (ACDP): Chairperson, the ACDP calls for the National Prosecuting Authority to immediately prosecute Deputy President Jacob Zuma. [Interjections.] The South African public requires an explanation from Mr Zuma, in view of the factual findings against him made by Judge Squires, particularly that the amounts paid by Schaik to Zuma were not loans or donations, but payments to secure the Deputy President’s intervention in securing government contracts. [Interjections.]
Mr L M GREEN: Chair, on a point of order: Could you protect our speaker? [Interjections.] We cannot hear him at all. [Interjections.]
The ACTING DEPUTY SPEAKER (Mr G Q M Doidge): Please proceed, hon Meshoe. [Interjections.] Order!
Rev K R J MESHOE: Chair, the court’s ruling also vindicates ACDP Chief Whip Louis Green, who was suspended from the Parliamentary Ethics Committee in October 2003 for publicly disclosing his displeasure at not being able to question the validity of the loans made by Shaik to the Deputy President. [Interjections.] The ACDP commends the officials of the Directorate of Special Operations and the prosecution team led by Adv Downer for their exceptionally hard work and not bowing down to political pressure. [Interjections.]
This finding will serve as a deterrent to those who’d seek to bribe public office bearers, as well as those office bearers who receive such bribes. [Interjections.] The question must be asked: How can the Deputy President, who is supposed to spearhead the Moral Regeneration Movement, be taken seriously, when one considers the court’s finding that a corrupt relationship existed between Shaik and himself?
The ACDP does not rejoice in the fact that Zuma has been exposed for this corrupt relationship, but justice must be served and the rule of law must be enforced. [Interjections.] South Africa has the laws to deal with corruption and the outcome of this case proves that even politically connected citizens are not above the law. [Applause.]
CHILDREN FROM NORTH WEST PROVINCE CONGRATULATED ON PERFORMANCE AT ARAFORA GAMES
(Member’s Statement)
Mr M S MOATSHE (ANC): Mmusakgotla, Puso ya ANC e akgola le go tlotlomatsa se rwalo sa tlholo sa bana ba Bokone Bophirima ba tlase ga di lemo tse masume amabedi be boraro. Ditlhopa tsa banyana ba di gymnastic le sa kgwele ya dinao di thupile di medala tse sume le bosupa mo metshamekong ya Arafora e eneng e tshwaretse kwa Darwin Australia ka di 14 go ya 22 tsa May 2005.
Bokone Bophirima e laleditswe go tsaa karolo morago ga go tsamaisa metshameko ya Commonwealth ya mabole a bo magogorwara ka manonontlhotlho ka
- Mo metshamekong ya Arafora go gaisana ma Amerika, Asia, Brithane, Australia, le di tlhaketlhake tsa tikologo ya lewatle la Arafora.
Ditlhopa tsa Bokone Bophirima di thupile di medala tsa gauta di le 10, silivere 3 le di bronso di le 2. Setlhopa sa kgwele ya dinao sona enele mampudi wa tonamente ka go tlhola kgwetla yotlhe ya metshameko ya yona. Ga ya ditlhodiwa me e fentse metshameko ya yona yotlhe. Ke a leboga. [Legofi.] (Translation of Setswana paragraphs follows.)
[Mr M S MOATSHE (ANC): The ANC Government wishes to congratulate the under- 23 children of the North West Province on a magnificent win at the Arafora Games. The gymnastics and soccer teams won 17 medals at these games which were held from 14 to 22 May 2005 in Darwin, Australia.
The North West Province was invited to take part because of the professional manner in which this province handled the amateur boxing tournament in 1996. Countries such as Australia, Asia, Britain, America and the surrounding islands of Arafora participate in these games.
Teams from the North West Province won 10 gold, 3 silver and 2 bronze medals. The soccer team won the championships and they did not lose a single game. They won all their games. I thank you. [Applause.]]
EXTRAVAGANCE OF SAA’s CEO
(Member’s Statement)
Mnr K J MINNIE (DA): Agb Waarnemende Ajunkspeaker, Business Day se Robin Chalmers skryf op 1 Junie 2005 in ’n artikel oor SAA:
SA Airways seems to have a bizarre effect on its CEOs, weaving a strange
magic that causes seemingly sensible people to do foolish things.
Suid-Afrika verwag van al sy leiers, en ek praat van al sy leiers, om verantwoordelik op te tree en verantwoording te doen. Die besteding van R500 000 deur die hoof uitvoerende beampte van SAA aan helikopterritte - wat ’n enkelrit van R100 000 tussen Toulouse en London insluit, terwyl ’n geskeduleerde vlug van R3 000 beskikbaar was - is inderdaad skokkend. Die besteding van R20 000 vir twee nagte in die Dorchester Hotel in London is absoluut absurd. Die hoof uitvoerende beampte moet ’n voorbeeld stel wat deur sy ondergeskiktes nagevolg kan word, en hy moet sy spandabelrigheid los.
Die DA versoek weereens die Minister vir Openbare Ondernemings om sy verantwoordelikheid na te kom en al die feite vir ons op die tafel te plaas, of stem die Minister dalk saam dat hierdie “issue” ook nie ’n “issue” is nie. Ek dank u. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[Mr K J MINNIE (DA): Hon Acting Deputy Speaker, on 1 June 2005 Robin Chalmers of Business Day wrote in an article about SAA:
SA Airways seems to have a bizarre effect on its CEOs, weaving a strange
magic that causes seemingly sensible people to do foolish things.
South Africa expects all its leaders, and I am speaking about all its leaders, to act responsibly and to be accountable. The expenditure of R500 000 by the chief executive officer of SAA on helicopter trips – which include a single trip costing R100 000 between Toulouse and London, while a scheduled flight costing R3 000 was available – is indeed shocking. The expenditure R20 000 for two nights at the Dorchester Hotel in London is absolutely absurd. The chief executive officer must set an example that can be followed by his subordinates, and he must put an end to his extravagance.
The DA once again requests the Minister for Public Enterprises to honour his responsibilities and to put all the facts on the table for us, or does the Minister perhaps agree that this issue is also not an issue? I thank you. [Applause.]]
HOUSING CRISES ON OUTSKIRTS OF CHATSWORTH, KWAZULU-NATAL
(Member’s Statement)
Ms S RAJBALLY (MF): Acting Deputy Speaker, whilst the MF appreciates the government’s initiative to provide homes for the homeless, we do not accept the inferior quality of these houses.
Today I take the House to an area on the outskirts of Chatsworth, KwaZulu- Natal, which is home to about 2 000 residents. This area has come under scrutiny for upgrading and housing. Many will find it odd, but this is not to benefit the current residents, who have named a number of shortfalls in the project, and feel they have been discriminated against.
This area will soon be home to approximately 20 000 people, and many of the local residents have not been given preference, which is unfair, considering they are already residing in the area. We are gravely concerned about the possible misconstruing of the concept of providing houses.
We call on the House to step in and ensure that the construction that will take place will actually be completed. The MF humbly requests the assistance and intervention of our national Minister of Housing and the MEC for housing of KwaZulu-Natal. They should kindly arrange an inspection in loco with the poverty alleviation organisation of that area, and the KZN municipal housing department.
A memorandum on the above matter has already been sent to the Minister of Housing, and the same memorandum has been faxed to the MEC of housing for KwaZulu-Natal. Thank you, Chair.
UNEMPLOYMENT AMONG YOUTH
(Member’s Statement)
Ms T V TOBIAS (ANC): Acting Deputy Speaker, the glorious youth movement that represents half a million young people in South Africa has always taken the issue of youth unemployment seriously, to the extent that the ANC Youth League’s NEC resolved to march against all companies who are delaying the creation of jobs in our country.
Two weeks ago the ANC Youth League launched its Jobs For Youth Campaign in Tembisa as a build-up to the celebrations for youth month, and also as a prelude to marches to be held on 9 June 2005. The ANC Youth League and its membership will take to the streets to once more bring the importance of job creation to the attention of not only government, but also the private sector.
Many processes have unfolded towards celebrating youth month. They include meeting with black executives in different companies aimed at ensuring that companies adopt an approach of one youth one learnership. Therefore the ANC supports its youth wing for this positive move to attend to the needs of its constituency. I thank you.
OFFICIAL CORRESPONDENCE IN SOUTHERN CAPE SAPS TO BE IN ENGLISH
(Member’s Statement)
Mr M SWART (DA): Mr Acting Deputy Speaker, the Area Commissioner, Southern Cape, of the SA Police Service has issued a circular address to all area heads and commanders of specialised units, which reads as follows:
By direction of Assistant Commissioner Mandisa you are once again informed that all official internal correspondence in Southern Cape SAPS must be done in English. The same instruction applies to taking of statements and the registering of case documents. Please communicate this instruction to all members under your command for compliance, and correspondence not in English to be sent back to the stations of origin.
The contents of this circular are totally unconstitutional. The DA has warned consistently that this type of unconstitutional behaviour will lead to poor service delivery to communities. Local Afrikaans- speaking communities of all races are complaining that they are forced to make statements in English without knowing or being certain what they are certifying.
The ANC, including President Mbeki, continues to deny the government Afrikaans and other languages, but this circular by a senior official of the state proves that government only pays lip-service to the protection of all languages, as supposedly protected by the Constitution.
The DA calls on the Minister of Safety and Security to publicly repudiate the official concerned and to have the contents of the circular reversed in writing. Thank you. [Applause.]
CONGRATULATIONS TO DR GAVIN WOODS
(Member’s Statement)
Mr P F SMITH (IFP): Chairperson, following the judgment today in the Durban High Court, the IFP would like to take this opportunity to congratulate one of our colleagues, Dr Gavin Woods, who chaired Scopa for so long during that period. We also want to say that despite a lot of hostility from the executive towards him as Chair, and also particularly from the Deputy President: He was right, they were wrong. [Applause.]
EFFORTS BY WOMEN TO BUILD OWN HOUSES COMMENDED
(Member’s Statement)
Nksz N J NGELE (ANC): Mhlalingaphambili, i-ANC iyabulela kuMphathiswa weZezindlu uQabane uLindiwe Sisulu ngokuncoma oomama xa bebesakha izindlu kulempela-veki idlulileyo. Umbutho iSouth African Homeless People’s Federation iye yambiza ukuba azokuba sisithethi sembeko kwinkonfa yabo ebibanjelwe eNtuzuma ngomhla wama-29 kuMeyi 2005. Uye wanikisa ngesitshixo komnye umama ebeqala ukufumana indlu. Uchulumanco obelulapho kumntu ongazanga abenayo indlu ngaphambili, nobehleli iminyaka etyotyombeni.
UMphathiswa uye waphethula isoyi okanye le nto kuthiwa ngesilungu, sod turning, kwisiza ekuzakwakhiwa kuso ezinye izindlu. Kwakule nkomfa uye wabhekisa koomama mgenxaxheba abayidlala ekwakheni izindlu phantsi kwesihloko ethi, Vuka Uzenzele. Sithi: Phambili Qabane, uze umane ubavelela abasempengempengeni. Iqobokazana lingalala endleleni yazini kunyembelekile. Abakhalazayo soze baphele. Enkosi. [Kwaqhatywa.] (Translation of Xhosa paragraphs follows.)
[Ms N J NGELE (ANC): Chairperson, the ANC would like to thank the hon Minister of Housing, Comrade Lindiwe Sisulu, for her compliments to the women who were involved in the building of houses last weekend. The South African Homeless People’ s Federation invited her as a guest of honour to their conference held at Ntuzuma on 29 May 2005. She handed over keys to one of the women who was a first time owner. It was a very exciting time for someone who had always lived in a shack and had never owned a house before.
The hon Minister performed a sod turning ceremony at the site where the construction of other houses is going to take place. At the conference she talked to the women about the role that they play in the building of houses under the theme: Vukuzenzele. We would like to say: Forward comrade! Please do not forget those that are desperate. Keep up the good work. There will always be people complaining about something. Thank you. [Applause.]]
MINISTERS’ RESPONSES
OFFICIAL CORRESPONDENCE IN SOUTHERN CAPE SAPS TO BE IN ENGLISH
(Minister’s Response)
The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Speaker, I wish to comment on the statement with respect to correspondence in the Southern Cape Police Service having to be in English. I think what we should say is that this party across the floor must sort out its Jekyll and Hyde mentality, because just two weeks ago it generated mass hysteria by seeking to confuse the nation and accusing me of being anti-English. Suddenly today, when it suits them, they are pro- Afrikaans and other languages. It is a very peculiar attitude that they have, calling for respect for the Constitution. When we announce a language policy which seeks to acknowledge all the languages of South Africa, they are pro-English, they accuse us of being anti-internationalism and so on. Suddenly, when it suits them, they are pro-Afrikaans and anti-English. [Applause.]
CO-OPERATIVES BILL
(Second Reading debate)
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: Chairperson, hon members, ladies and gentlemen, Robert Briscoe, in his article, writing about co-operative difference, wrote these inspiring words:
To be successful, co-operatives must have a higher purpose than that of
just making money . . . The centre of any co-operative’s concern is
human beings, not dollars, and the business is really a means to human
ends.
The Bill before you today is about a clear framework on how government will promote co-operatives as part of the enterprise development strategy. The framework will allow these enterprises to fully flourish and explore their innovative ways of doing business whilst underlining the competitive advantages of co-operatives in an unusual way of doing business in realising their potential and competitive edge.
Co-operatives are prospering in every continent but are often poorly understood by the general public. It often happens that the very people who are helped by a co-operative do not even realize that they are dealing with one. Co-operatives are particularly plentiful, operating in various sectors of our economy in areas such as community banking services, insurance and the funeral services, food industry, housing, agriculture and other services.
These co-operatives have also been identified as struggling for survival and lacking training. This is a result of the lack of a proper enabling framework that located the co-operative sector in the South African economy in such a way that they can be provided with the necessary support to strengthen and build their technical capacity, financial support, expansion, access to markets and modernising their operations.
Hence, there is a great need to urgently increase the awareness of the range and the significance of co-operatives and the key role that they play in enhancing the quality of life of so many people in the world. For example, the remedies they can bring for many of the problems that threaten the wellbeing of our stressed second economy.
Hon members would remember that in June 2003 the government, through the Growth and Development Summit, made commitments with all key social partners to support co-operatives. The Department of Trade and Industry was mandated by government to take leadership of the Co-operatives Development Programme and implement the agreed commitments.
Amongst them was the development of the co-operatives policy, to come up with legislation, to come up with the co-operative strategy, to establish a fully-fledged co-operatives business unit within the Department of Trade and Industry, to conduct a study tour of all constituencies as well as to fund a national conference on co-operatives. I am happy to say that all these commitments were properly implemented and that the Bill before you today is the culmination of that process.
The Growth and Development Summit of 2003 paved the way for constituencies through Nedlac to continue to strive to manage and to promote the social dialogue on co-operatives development in our economy. South Africa faces tough challenges, both economically and socially, but it is crucial that we all share the same vision of development, that we all work together every step of the way to steer the country into a higher development path.
I am convinced that by strengthening the dialogue and through working together with all stakeholders we will reach our goals of poverty alleviation, employment creation and economic growth. The need for new legislation in respect of co-operatives has been long apparent and government, through the Nedlac process, has consulted as widely as possible in putting together the legislative framework that is embodied in this Bill.
A desirable public policy on co-operatives should acknowledge the autonomous character of co-operatives, their democratic landing stage, their entrepreneurial character, the importance of empowering members through their constitutions to make decisions as to how they want to run their business and the role and place government has envisaged for co- operatives in a wider socioeconomic perspective. This Bill that is serving before this House today has been developed to encompass all these considerations and we believe that it is sufficiently broad to accommodate practical situations which are likely to arise in co-operative government relations.
With this framework, the Department of Trade and Industry, as the lead department, hopes to address some of the great challenges facing our economy in ensuring that there is an increase in the number and variety of viable and sustainable economic enterprises. We have a particular history that has brought about many interruptions in the development of enterprises associated with destruction of wealth in black hands in both the rural and urban areas.
The centrality of this government’s economic policy focuses on the promotion and development of emerging or developing economic co-operative enterprises in all sectors of the economy, aimed at diversifying the ownership, the size and the geographic location of those enterprises throughout the country. These include small, medium, micro and survivalist co-operative enterprises.
The legislation further outlines government’s approach to defining the co- operative enterprises as well as the policy instruments that will be utilized to achieve the objectives in partnership with all state organs. We think that this legislation is developmental rather than administrative in nature and will ensure accessibility and simplicity in the registration of co-operatives through a decentralised process where provincial deputy registrars will be appointed.
This law will allow a co-operative governance implementation approach by all state organs and it will also inform and design the implementation of such support programmes by government in all spheres.
Phakathi kwezinye izinto, lo mthetho uza kunceda kwezi zinto zilandelayo: Ukuphuhlisa ookopeletyeni abazimeleyo nabahambisana nemithetho yooko . . . [Among other things, this legislation will help in the following ways: To develop a private corporation and those who agree with the laws of . . .]
In conclusion, I would like to say that government assistance to co- operatives is geared towards empowerment and should not be construed as interference by government to erode and infringe on their autonomy, but as an endeavour to increase their competitiveness, their self-reliance and pursuit of equity and quality, which is critical for their sustainability and effectiveness.
Finally, I would be failing in my duty if I don’t make special reference to the significant contributions by the Portfolio Committee on Trade and Industry to the Bill as introduced in Parliament. In this regard, a mere reflection on the contents of Bill 4[A] of 2004, which indicates all the amendments effected by the committee, would suffice. A reading of these amendments makes it abundantly clear that many substantive amendments resulted from thorough and in-depth deliberations in the committee.
I would like to thank and congratulate the chairperson of this committee, Mr Ben Martins, for his leadership as well as members of the portfolio committee for their valuable contributions.
I present before you the Co-operatives Bill, 4[B] of 2005. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr B A D MARTINS: Chairperson, Deputy Minister of Trade and Industry, hon members, the structural challenges that have taken place in the South African economy over the past 11 years have necessitated varied institutional responses to the development of the economy.
One of the serious challenges we face as a nation is that there is a substantial percentage of South Africans who are not able to fully meet their basic needs. Many of these compatriots often fall outside of the mainstream economy and they rely on government grants, remittances from family members who are employed, temporary work, and other income- generating activities in order to survive.
In this context co-operatives are important because they enable the unemployed and poor to pool their resources to leverage cheaper goods and services and to engage in the economy; encourage social solidarity and activism and engage ordinary people in their own development through sustainable economic activity; have become a critical component of government strategy to grow the economy, promote broad participation, and substantially increase sustainable livelihoods.
The Co-operatives Bill provides for, amongst others, the formation and registration of co-operatives, the provision of targeted support for emerging co-operatives and that international co-operative principles are recognised and implemented in South Africa.
Over the past 11 years we have passed many good laws in this Chamber but a common challenge we face as Members of Parliament is to assist in the dissemination of information on the enabling laws we pass, so as to empower members of our constituencies to be better placed economic citizens.
In conclusion, it is important to remember the words of the statesman, Franklin D Roosevelt, who said:
The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of
those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have
little.
The ANC supports the passage of this Bill in order to fight poverty and create jobs. I thank you. [Applause.]
Dr E NKEM-ABONTA: Chairperson, hon members, I salute you and I urge you to keep your mind focused on the probable consequences of the Bill, both intended and unintended, if passed today by yourselves into law.
The Co-operatives Bill seeks to repeal the Co-operatives Act, No 91 of
- Accordingly it seeks to overcome the shortcomings of that Act, in particular it refrains from being overly prescriptive but expressly requires co-operatives to comply with internationally accepted co-operative principles. Although applying to all types of co-operatives, it recognises the special features of certain types of co-operatives and in this way makes a clean break from the current agriculture-leaning Co-operatives Act.
The Bill defines different categories of co-operatives in a manner that allows for international comparison, and provides guidelines for simplifying the process of registering, converting or winding down co- operatives. In sum, the Bill aims at giving legal recognition and protection to the co-operative identity, and strives to promote it.
Worthy of note, it provides for the protection of members’ interests and establishes an advisory board to guide the Minister on co-operative matters. Remarkably too, it limits the role of government to that of a facilitator and a support provider to emergent co-operatives owned by targeted groups.
Without a doubt the Bill represents a huge improvement regarding these areas in the Act it seeks to repeal. Accordingly, I salute the men and women, including my colleagues in the portfolio committee, who worked tirelessly to produce the Bill now before us.
Accordingly, the DA supports the Bill but has a major concern with it – a concern I must now raise. The Bill fails to accept the principle of patronage voting in the case of primary co-operatives, providing that each member of a primary co-operative, regardless of unequal contribution or investment, may only have one vote. Like socialism, this is no doubt well intentioned. But I judge policies and legislation on their probable consequences not on the basis of their good intentions. Is not the road to hell, after all, paved with good intentions?
The denial of the principle of patronage voting stems, I believe, from a puerile desire on the part of the Minister of Trade and Industry and many of my colleagues in the portfolio committee to enhance the democratic control of co-operatives by their members. It reflects the Minister’s view that co-operatives would be a solution to our social problems. In fact, I submit – and I dare anyone to controvert me – that one reason that the department’s small business development policy has failed is that it has regarded small business primarily as a social engineering instrument and vehicle, and not an economic undertaking to fire and promote economic growth and welfare.
Befuddled by the wine of a stale and moribund ideology, even hindsight seems not to have served our Minister well. A co-operative endeavour is primarily economic, not social. It is an economic enterprise aimed at providing access to the economy’s mainstream, through co-operation and self- help, by persons who voluntarily pool their resources together. It is therefore an investment activity and as such the member with more at stake should have more say. Has the Bible not said that he who sows sparingly shall reap sparingly?
I ask this august assembly to consider whether it is wise or equitable to give the same vote to a member of a co-operative who has invested or contributed, maybe by way of a loan, say R1 million, as to another who has contributed say R1 000? In the event of a bad commercial decision it is clear that the bigger investor will suffer a disproportionately much greater prejudice.
I also ask this illustrious House to ponder the probable consequences of the proposed one member one vote provision in the Bill. The bigger investor members would in most cases be the guiding lights of the co-operatives, particularly the rural and peri-urban ones. Such members would leave the co- operatives to find companies or form companies only with their ilk, rather that put their capital at great risk.
As the rich avoid forming co-operatives with the poor, we could even see the development of two kinds of co-operatives, one for the rather rich, skilled and experienced and another for the poor, unskilled and inexperienced. Does not this smack of the two-economy syndrome that the President harps on? How such an outcome could benefit the so-called second economy is beyond my comprehension.
Ye men and women who make our laws, I urge you to let your heads rule your hearts. Take a look at the probable result: Undercapitalised co-operatives peopled mainly by “hollow men, stuffed with straw”, as well as unskilled and inexperienced members, and high death rates among co-operatives. Hon members, I ask you: How many of such co-operatives would be black? I leave you, as a Bantu proverb says, to count your teeth with your tongue.
Perhaps the intention of the Minister was to prevent the rich and thus strong members of co-operatives from dominating the poor and weak members. In that case, the more sensible thing to do would be to pen into the Bill a clause disallowing the maximum individual contribution from exceeding a predetermined factor of the lowest individual contribution, and then to allocate votes proportionately.
The one member one vote principle might be appropriate in countries where the income distribution is more equitable and where little handholding of the poor by the rich is required. In South Africa, with its yawning income disparities and social inequality, this principle would be counterproductive and hence foolish.
This Bill in its present form reflects hubris on the part of the Minister of Trade and Industry. The DA wishes to warn him of the impending disaster. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr S M RASMENI: Chairperson, hon members, may I rise to commend the Department of Trade and Industry, and of course the portfolio committee, in bringing this important legislation to Parliament. This legislation comes after decades of economic isolation of black people and the rural poor from participating in the economy, and in particular the ownership of co- operatives.
During the apartheid era, co-operatives were used for economic empowerment of a minority, rural economic development and welfare provision for a minority. The main focus was on agriculture co-operatives and trading co- operatives, whose membership were predominantly white Afrikaans-speaking males. Today we owe it to the ANC, which resolved in the year 2002 in Stellenbosch, that the ANC and its allies support mobilisation of social movement to initiate the development of co-operatives, as an instrument of growth and development. And that government needs to urgently establish at all levels appropriate enabling legislation and an institutional framework, and resources for producer and consumer services and credit co-operatives.
The Growth and Development Summit held in the year 2003 also resolved to develop and support the growth of a co-operatives movement in order to promote economic empowerment for all, especially black people, workers, people with disabilities, women and the youth. The problems of poverty and underdevelopment that characterise the second economy can never be resolved by the market economy. It is the efforts of the developmental state, introducing legislation and programmes such as this Co-operatives Bill, that can bring about change.
The purpose of this Bill is clearly defined as being an instrument to advance broad-based BEE. It seeks to promote the development of sustainable co-operatives that comply with co-operative principles, thereby increasing the number and variety of economic enterprises operating in the formal economy. It seeks to promote equity and greater participation by black persons, especially those in rural areas, women, people with disabilities and the youth in the management of the formation of co-operatives. It seeks to facilitate the provision of support programmes that target co- operatives, especially co-operatives that create employment or benefit disadvantaged groups.
This Bill closes the chapter of the apartheid colonial era and its legislation that subjected our people to be hewers of wood and drawers of water. It is one thing to legislate and pass laws, but it is another to implement such laws. The immediate challenge presented by the Bill is the responsibility of the three tiers of government in ensuring that it works for the people, especially the poor in rural areas and in the townships, people living on farms and workers in factories and in the mines. I want to repeat that the Stellenbosch ANC resolution is instructive in this regard. It says: All levels of government must take responsibility to implement this law.
All government departments must initiate development programmes that will drive and support the establishment of co-operatives. This includes all government departments, the provincial government departments, and that the local sphere of government and its wards should include the establishment and support of co-operatives in their IDPs, so that local economic development becomes a reality and an expression of people’s participation in the economy.
Co-operative movements must support equitable growth and ownership in the economy and empower our people. But, in fact, our people do not have enough understanding or information of what is there for them in government programmes. We need an effective and efficient co-ordination, and above all, activism by the Department of Trade and Industry through its co- operative unit.
In passing this Bill today in Parliament, we pay tribute to our fallen leaders and heroes, former presidents of the ANC Chief Albert Luthuli and Oliver Tambo, comrades like Chris Hani and Joe Slovo, Lilian Ngoyi, Ntombi Shope, Thabo Sithole and Benjy Oliphant. I thank you. [Applause.]
Prof E S CHANG: Acting Deputy Speaker, Deputy Minister, the chairperson and all my dear colleagues, since the early 1900s co-operatives have played an important role in the South African economy. The IFP constituency has used this form of self-help for many years.
Co-operatives for people empower themselves. They are a form of business activities by the people for the people. So co-operatives are community- based enterprises. They promote democracy, benefit open markets and in so doing help communities to develop themselves.
The principles of self-help, self-management and self-determination are things that are not alien to the IFP. For the past 30 years Prince Buthelezi has urged people to become self-reliant, to look within themselves and help themselves. Even God helps those who help themselves. The IFP will support all efforts to ensure that the poorest of the poor are able to gain some form of economic gains. However, we also noted that the legislation is not perfect, but we will support it.
The legislation aims to define the formation, registration, management and structure of co-operatives. The Bill also provides for the establishment of an advisory board to set up policies. The provision of co-operatives is to be welcomed, since it allows for promoting equity, seeks to eliminate unemployment and helps to ensure that poor communities, especially those in rural areas are able to mobilise resources.
Furthermore, communities must be encouraged to move away from agriculture- based co-operatives but also from others such as various housing co- operatives, marketing and consumer co-operatives. In this way co-operatives will be able to benefit larger numbers of people. However, although the Bill has noble intentions, one has to guard against legislation becoming too prescriptive. There is insufficient reference to the areas of microcredit, especially how our microcredit institutions can lend support.
In closing, I want to quote from Edgar Parnell’s poem on co-operatives:
Keep co-operatives away from politicians who seek to use co-operatives
as a stepping-stone to power. Keep them away from governments that will
bury them in bureaucracy.
The IFP wishes to express its support for the Bill.
Ms D M RAMODIBE: Acting Deputy Speaker, hon Ministers, hon members, ladies and gentlemen, the ANC supports the Bill. Dr Nkem-Abonta, the principle of this Bill is one man, one vote, and if you feel that you have to buy so many shares so that you can have so many votes, I think you will have to open your own company so that you can do that.
The Bill comes at a time when we are about to celebrate 50 years of the Freedom Charter, and I quote: “We reconfirm our commitment to the revolutionary struggle to bring into being a better society founded on dignity and equality for all.” This is one of the instruments that will build and bring together our communities to engage in their own development through sustainable economic activities.
These co-operatives were successfully utilised by farmers, especially in the rural areas, to economically empower themselves. Some were only co- operatives in name, not in the true sense. Some of them failed, as they were not economically viable and did not subscribe to principles.
This Bill encourages groups who subscribe to the values of self-reliance and self-help, who choose to work together in a democratically controlled enterprise, to register co-operatives in terms of the Act. This is in line with the Freedom Charter that guides our progress towards the realisation of a future in which, I quote again: “The national wealth of our country, the heritage of South Africans, shall be restored to the people.”
The Bill is long overdue. After 10 years of democracy, the majority of the people of this country are still living in poverty. These are the people who suffered oppression and who were denied the opportunity to live a human life.
Some of the objects of the Bill are to address the challenges of promoting equity and greater participation of those in the rural areas, and of women, the youth and persons with disabilities. The Bill will facilitate programmes, especially those that create employment and benefit the previously disadvantaged.
The creation of these co-operatives will also assist institutions like Sawen and Samac – those that promote and uplift the lives of women in this country. Where there is a woman, there is life, because they are the most caring people in society. [Applause.] Therefore, if empowered, they will rescue the nation from poverty.
Women are more innovative than men. We see households being headed by women. They play the dual role of raising children and, at the same time, being formally employed. Those who are unemployed contribute to the growth of the economy through the caring economy, which is not accounted for even in the GDP. This we call unpaid labour.
Most of the informal businesses are run by women. The survivalists that sell on the pavements are mostly women. We do hope that they will in future form co-operatives so that they can buy in bulk at a cheaper price.
In fact, women have been forming co-operatives for a long time, although these were informal ones. These are the stokvels, the burial societies, the social co-operatives and many others. Women have always been at the forefront of the struggle for freedom and equality. They were there when the Freedom Charter was adopted in 1955. They were there during the time of the pass laws against which they protested in 1956.
One other challenge that faces us in this country is unemployment among the youth. The Co-operatives Bill will also promote equity and greater participation of the youth in the formation and management of co- operatives.
As I said earlier, co-operatives are not something new. A group of 50 youths in the Free State came together as a collective to form a co- operative. Let us not forget that co-operatives are not investments.
This Bill seeks to facilitate the provision of support programmes for job creation. People with disabilities have been disadvantaged historically and unemployed. The Bill will promote equity and greater participation in this sector as well, in which they will have to come together as a collective and share their common interests.
In his 8 January statement, the President said:
The ANC will continue to mobilise our communities in general, and
targeted groups in particular – women, institutions working with
children, people with disabilities, the youth and the elderly - to take
up the black economic empowerment opportunities and to help us achieve
the broad-based development we seek.
This is not a banana republic where everyone can do as they wish. Government must regulate and intervene when necessary.
The ACTING DEPUTY SPEAKER (Mr G Q M Doidge): Order, hon member. Your time has expired.
Ms D M RAMODIBE: If you have been privileged before, you will not see any need for regulation . . .
The ACTING DEPUTY SPEAKER (Mr G Q M Doidge): Order, hon member. Your time has expired.
Ms D M RAMODIBE: Thank you, Chair. [Applause.]
Mr L M GREEN: Acting Deputy Speaker, I wish to stand in for my colleague, the hon Mr Kent Durr, who is not in the House today.
Because of the developmental nature of this Bill, the ACDP believes that this is a step in the right direction. The idea of this Bill is to create a wealth-creating conduit, particularly for the people in rural areas. As a nation, we must welcome all attempts, whether by the state or the private sector, to create employment.
In the traditional and tribal areas, it could well be used as a bridge between the traditional and the modern economies in order for people to pool their potential for joint and co-operative enterprises so as to achieve economies of scale when buying and selling, or sharing the cost of expertise and administration in order to be viable and to succeed. Shared marketing is another major area for co-operation.
If the maximum extension of private-property ownership is also used in the whole process as well as partnerships with the private sector, this dispensation could well be an accelerator for development.
This Bill can only do the nation much good. The ACDP therefore supports this Bill. I thank you. [Applause.]
Prof B TUROK: Chair, I was rather disappointed by the contribution of Dr Nkem-Abonta. I was disappointed because I expected him to come out in defence of the individual entrepreneur, the ideal capitalist. Instead, he supported the collective in the form of the co-operative, and so I am a little bit disarmed. I was hoping for a combative interchange. [Interjections.] But what he did do was to argue for the power of capital in the form of “the bigger the stake, the bigger the vote”, an undemocratic principle as far as community relations are concerned. [Interjections.]
I would ask Dr Nkem-Abonta: Do you know that there are mergers and acquisitions that we see in the newspapers every day in which capital consolidates itself; companies come together? Why do they do that? They do that because they want greater concentrations of wealth and resources.
Similarly, we are saying to the poor: Concentrate your resources, come together, bring your skills together, form a co-operative so that you have greater weight and greater power and greater capacity. It is the same principle. Come together in order to consolidate your resources.
This is not a new concept in South Africa. We have the KWV co-operative. We have co-operatives of farmers all over the Western Cape and elsewhere, and they have done this in order to strengthen themselves, to pool their resources. And we are saying to the poor: learn from those lessons. Because the rich knew what they were doing, the poor must also know what they need to do.
I must say that this is going to require a considerable mind-shift for the whole of South Africa. It will require a mind-shift for the department; it will require a mind-shift for this House and for the people in the urban townships and in the rural areas, because they are going to have to think in a new way: Combine in order to increase your capacity to increase your power.
Yesterday, I received some data from Statistics SA, which I have been looking at for a while. I was interested to see whether it is true that the former homelands are merely places where the elderly and the children exist, and where there is no economic capacity. I want to tell the House about the data I got just yesterday.
The first statistic, from Stats SA, is that the total population of the former homelands is 16 million people. In the urban townships, the total population is 9 million people. So, we are talking about co-operatives in the rural areas for 16 million people, which is a very substantial body. Even more important than that: if we ask ourselves who is potentially economically active, we look at people between the ages of 15 and 65. These are people who have a working life and a potential.
In the homelands there are 8,5 million people in that age group. In the urban townships there are 6,3 million people, which means, potentially, that if we do the right thing, if we follow a developmental path and if we set up co-operatives and encourage the people to do their own thing, we are talking about a potential working population of 8,5 million people in the former homelands and 6,3 million in the urban townships.
We say that both need attention, but let us not neglect the former homelands as a potential resource for the growth of the South African economy, and I am afraid we often do. We often do that in this House. We treat the urban townships as mere dormitories for labour, and we talk about the former homelands as depositories for the aged, the sick and the young, and that is wrong. These statistics show that if we follow the correct policies, we can regenerate the former homelands and make them far more economically viable.
Let us look at another statistic. I was interested in the number of unemployed in the urban townships, as contrasted with the unemployed in the rural areas. I was surprised to hear that Stats SA tells us that the number of unemployed in the urban townships is the same as the number of unemployed in the rural areas.
Here we have a country with an artificial divide between the urban townships and the former homelands in which there is almost parity of capacity and need. So let us look at both of those in a very constructive way, and ensure that we adopt the right policies for both.
Now what the hon Dr Nkem-Abonta finds remarkable is that the state needs to intervene. Well, on this side of the House we talk all the time about a developmental state, which is a vital institution in any Third World country, in any developmental country, and we look to the Department of Trade and Industry to give enormous energy to this process.
A number of requirements are necessary, and I would appeal to the DTI to give attention to these. The first is to remove the regulatory obstacles that exist for small enterprises right across the country. This co-op initiative will not move unless we remove those regulations and those practices which indeed are obstacles to the emergence of small enterprises right across the country, in the urban townships and in the rural former homelands.
With that, my time is up. I would love to talk to you longer. [Applause.]
Mr N T GODI: Chairperson, comrades and hon members, as I rise to support the Bill on behalf of the PAC, I do so by dedicating my speech to Comrade Kwedi Mkalipi, a cadre of the PAC, a veteran of the struggle and a true son of the soil, for the pioneering and sterling work he has done and continues to do on the co-operatives front.
Upon his release from Robben Island in 1987, where he served his full 20- year sentence, he joined the then Cape Credit Union League and went on to become a founding member and the first CEO of the National Co-operatives Association of SA, whose revolutionary work leads directly to this Bill. [Applause.]
This Bill is revolutionary in its scope, content and thrust. To appreciate this fact, one needs to know the history of co-operatives in this country. They were founded to address the poor-white problem after the Anglo-Boer War and subsequent droughts. They became the backbone of the rural Afrikaner economy, as only agricultural co-operatives were recognised and given massive financial support by the Land Bank, which credits were not infrequently paid off by the Department of Agriculture. They were used as a tool to garner political support from white farmers.
This Bill seeks to recognise the different varieties of co-operatives in South Africa: agricultural co-operatives, housing, workers, service, social co-operatives, etc. Co-operatives are a tool that should be used in a sustainable way to promote the participation of the people in the economic life of the country as entrepreneurs, especially Africans, women and people with disabilities.
The reality, however, is that there is a need to guard against fronting and the abuse of co-operatives, where those with honourable intentions get swindled by crooked people, especially the moneyed. Co-operatives are voluntary structures that must be run democratically, with annual meetings, and transparently, with audits.
The PAC calls on our people, especially the youth, people with disabilities, women, the rural and urban poor, to take this opportunity and set up vibrant co-operatives to lift themselves out of the grinding poverty that white rule has bequeathed unto us. Thank you. [Applause.]
Ms S RAJBALLY: Chairperson, co-operatives, which are based on the values and beliefs of self-help, self-responsibility, equality, equity, solidarity, honesty, social responsibility and caring for others, boast a very attractive system and are in turn based on the values enshrined in our Constitution.
The MF acknowledges that in view of the deficiencies in the Co-operatives Act of 1981, this Bill effectively serves to correct the deficiencies in this sector and to fulfil a number of purposes.
The Bill clearly provides for the formation of co-operatives in line with international definitional terms, thereby enabling the principles of co- operatives to be upheld. Further more, its relationship with government, legislation and the Minister of Trade and Industry has been paved to ensure effective operation of co-operatives and, more importantly, that co- operatives’ members’ interests are catered for.
Considering the fact that almost half the world’s population is secured by co-operatives, the MF values the outline of this Bill and it will hopefully develop co-operatives in South Africa to contribute to poverty alleviation and social development.
While co-operatives paint a picture of a valuable system in our democracy, we call for every effort to be made to ensure that corruption does not taint this sector. The MF supports the Co-operatives Bill. Thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]
Mr L ZITA: Madam Chair, ladies and gentlemen, comrades, today is an important day for the prisoners of starvation and the tillers of the soil in our country. Today this people’s Parliament, true to its character, is codifying into law the Co-operatives Bill.
From its inception, capitalism operated on and venerated the principle of everyone for himself or herself, and that in pursuing everyone’s selfish needs, through some miracle, as Adam Smith argued: “The good of everyone would be secured.”
The history of capitalism, however, disputes this assertion. It is now accepted across the ideological divide that the market system on its own tends to benefit the strong. Furthermore, it has also been accepted that this system does not, on its own, have the capacity to address the needs of all citizens in a given country.
Recent technological changes in the organisation of capitalism and the use of microelectronics in production have proved to all and sundry, whether you are in Paris in France or in Parys in the Free State, that if you are a worker you are vulnerable. The notion of full-employment capitalism on its own now belongs to the museum of the 20th century.
As a response to this fundamental fault line over the past two centuries the working class and the working people of the world have sought to protect themselves from the brutalities of the capitalist system by imposing their own right, that of collective action and solidarity.
It is about an alternative rationality, which is more in tune with the moral aspirations of humanity, that motho ke motho ka batho [no man is an island]. Lost is a human being who remains untouched by the sight of destitution.
The South African economy is capitalist. The ANC has sought to work with this reality to ensure that the South African economy does not only answer to the call of the shareholders, important as that is, but also responds to the anguish of the destitute who need jobs and security.
Whilst we remain committed to overseeing the restructuring of the South African economy, away from its apartheid past, we do not expect miracles. We do not expect this economy to all of a sudden absorb all of the unemployed in no time. It is with this in mind that we are introducing the Co-operatives Bill here today.
We believe that this economy must give space to an alternative logic, one of caring and co-operation. Co-operatives, like all enterprises, have to make profit. Unlike capitalist firms, they are not obsessive about maximising profit. If profit is maximised owing to certain opportunities, that is welcome. But co-operatives, owing to the fact that the workers own the means of production, are unlikely to pursue retrenchments at the slightest provocation.
When we met in Stellenbosch in 2002 as the ANC, we noted in our economic resolution that, and I quote:
The co-operative sector would support more equitable growth and ownership in our economy and empower our people, while providing important services more affordably and efficiently to our people.
Furthermore, we noted that the current legislative framework for co- operatives does not encourage the formation of small-scale producer co- operatives, co-operative financial institutions or consumer co-operatives.
We went on and resolved that the ANC and its allies will support a social movement that will initiate the development of co-operatives as an instrument of economic growth and development, and ensure that government urgently establishes at all levels enabling legislation, an appropriate institutional framework and provides resources for producer, consumer, service and credit co-operatives. After many months of research and debate, we are now presenting this Bill to the public in general and to the working class in particular. This is a clear indication that the ANC is committed to honouring its promises to the people.
Co-operatives are not new in South Africa. KWV is a co-operative. The notion of Letsima or Ilima, which was used and is still used in rural areas for building houses, is based on co-operative principles. Co-operatives exist in many countries and they are a valued part of the economy of those countries.
Co-operatives are part of an alternative sector, an ethical economy. For the past 20 years there has been, particularly in the developed world, a movement towards socially responsible investments. By 1987 in the United States alone, such a movement was worth $400 billion.
While such a movement is not based on co-operatives alone, it indicates the existence of space for alternative logic in the economy, even in countries such as the United States, which is not famous for radical economics.
In passing this piece of legislation on co-operatives we are laying a firm foundation for an alternative pole in the economy, a people’s pole. Indeed in our country the co-operative sector has real potential. With the challenge of unemployment, many of the basic consumption items in the townships and in rural areas can be acquired through the co-operative mechanism.
To start with, people can make real savings and increase their buying power if they form consumer co-operatives to buy their groceries. Some grocery items, such as soap, polish, vegetables, as well as shirts, can be produced by co-operatives.
Unlike normal enterprises, co-operatives have an in-built transformative impulse. They lend themselves to redistributive outcomes. In a private enterprise there is always the temptation for the owner to underpay his or her employees. In contrast, in the co-operative movement the emphasis is on collective empowerment. Therefore, co-operatives are important in our pursuit of a broad-based empowerment strategy.
The Department of Trade and Industry has done a sterling job in drafting this piece of legislation. As the ANC we support this Bill. Thank you. [Applause.]
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: Hon Chairperson, thank you to all members for their contributions. I think the first contribution was really not very useful. The hon Nkem-Abonta is talking about a disaster looming, and he is warning the Minister of Trade and Industry about this disaster looming and, in the same breath, he is supporting the Bill before the House.
The more I listened to him the more I thought that this polisyllabic pomposity of his, was really not assisting this debate in this House. I think I will not dwell on that issue, which they have a concern about, that is one member one vote, because both the hon member Ramodibe and hon member Turok have dealt with it. I just want to say that there is no way this could work, namely that simply because you bring the most resources into a co-operation, you get more votes. The fact that we have kept this principle of one member one vote, is what really underpins the democracy which is the cornerstone of co- operations at the moment.
If people have such a lot of money, they can set up private companies or they can set up other companies, but we have also provided for different forms of co-operation. But for this primary co-operation, one member one vote is meant to ensure that the members of the co-operative, who must all be active in the co-operative anyway, must be able to democratically take decisions about how they run their institution.
I have taken note of the issue of regulatory obstacles. We are engaged in not only trying to identify, but also eventually to remove both from the national government, that is provincial as well as municipal legislation. Those are areas which we find inhibit small business, and I am hoping that as we work with the division in the DTI dealing with co-operatives, we will look into this aspect to ensure that we are not making it even more difficult for co-operatives, which have started on their own anyway, without government involvement.
We do not want the fact that we now want to formalise them, to get them registered, in order for them to benefit, to become a bigger burden than what they are facing right now. I thank all the members for supporting this legislation.
Debate concluded.
Bill read a second time.
RE-DETERMINATION OF THE BOUNDARIES OF CROSS-BOUNDARY MUNICIPALITIES BILL
(Second Reading debate)
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Chairperson, members of Parliament, the Re-determination of the Boundaries of Cross- Boundary Municipalities Bill that is before Parliament today represents a further instalment in our preparations for the next local government elections and the further deepening of democracy and accountability within our democratic state.
We need to be alive as South Africans at all times to the key determinants for successful local government elections, elections that are credible and give true expression to the notion shared by many of us that South Africa belongs to all who live in it. We have therefore given consideration and are acting on deliverables the state needs to undertake to support the delivery of successful elections.
Government, with its various organs, has over the past year co-ordinated with key stakeholders, such as the IEC and the Municipal Demarcation Board, measures to finalise outer boundaries of municipalities, where a request for re-determination of outer boundaries of municipalities has been made to the Municipal Demarcation Board.
The national common voters’ roll has been divided into municipal segments and we will now have a clear idea of the number of councillors and wards we will have in the next term of municipal councils, following the finalisation of the delimitation of wards by the Municipal Demarcation Board on 20 May 2005.
The Municipal Demarcation Board has, since the previous local government elections, redetermined boundaries of 10 of the 16 cross- boundary municipalities. These re-determinations, as reflected in the Bill before this House, could be described as technical, and do not affect the existence or the status of cross-boundary municipalities.
Re-determinations, as described in the Re-determination of the Boundaries of Cross-boundary Municipalities Bill, deal with matters such as the inclusion and exclusion of farms or portions of farms from municipalities and aligning current municipal boundaries with the Survey or General’s cadastral survey system.
In this regard one should bear in mind that the Municipal Demarcation Board is an independent constitutional institution and the Bill seeks to merely sanction these adjustments proposed by that independent body. Ward delimitations in view of the forthcoming local government elections have therefore also been prepared in accordance with the proposed re- determination.
We are heartened by the concurrences given by all provincial legislatures affected by these technical changes in cross-boundary areas, as required by the Local Government: Cross-boundary Municipalities Act of 2000. This Bill therefore aims to authorise the re-determination and thereby amends the Local Government: Cross-boundary Municipalities Act of 2000 by replacing the schedule thereto with a schedule reflecting the determinations. It must be emphasised that the timeous authorisation of re-determinations is necessary for preparations for the forthcoming local government elections.
In this regard I want to thank all key stakeholders that have played a role in facilitating this timely processing of this Bill, including the portfolio committee, affected provinces and all parties that have played an invaluable role during the entire process. I thank you.
Mr M M S LEKGORO: Deputy Speaker, Deputy Minister for Provincial and Local Government, Ministers present and hon members, it is a privilege for me to participate in this debate. Let me state from the onset that the ANC supports this Bill without any reservation.
This Bill occupies a special place in the scheme of things within the national transformation agenda. It drives the process of transformation further forward to the ideal of creating a new local government dispensation.
Transformation, whether it be of structures or processes, is a continuous effort and not an event. It therefore should not be surprising that we come back to this House to once more debate the matter of cross-boundary municipalities. As the Deputy Minister has already mentioned, the specific object of this Bill is to authorise the re-determination of boundaries of certain cross-boundary municipalities in line with section 2(b) of the Cross-boundary Municipalities Act of 2000.
I know this might sound a little bit convoluted. Simply put this Act seeks to abolish cross-boundary municipalities. Cross-boundary municipalities were created in 2000 to facilitate the management and service delivery for the people of the affected areas. This phenomenon of cross-boundaries has played its role and now it is time for its demise.
In most areas this actually led to situations of neglect and inadequate service provision. It is this situation of neglect that reinforced the perception that it is better to be declared a resident of a specific area as opposed to another area, albeit living on the same geographic piece of land.
The 51st conference of the ANC held in Stellenbosch resolved that the cross- boundary municipalities should be done away with because of the obvious problems that it causes. The passing of this Bill today should be seen as a building block in this particular direction.
Allow me to use this opportunity to call on all South Africans affected by the cross-boundary situation to stay calm and remember that South Africa is one country. Whether you are located in this or that municipality is immaterial. It does not matter where you are located in terms of the municipal and provincial geographic map; the important thing is that you remain a South African.
The central gist of boundary disputes is access to economic opportunities and not a choice of province, as some people would have us believe. It is for this reason that the state must reinforce its efforts to ensure that all provinces gain equitable access to developmental resources.
Developmental challenges that confront our country would not be resolved by the re-determination of boundaries. This is a fallacy. This will only be resolved through appropriate economic development strategies and poverty alleviation programmes. Our government has a clear programme in this regard and we wish it success.
The re-determination of boundaries is yet another effort towards the destruction of apartheid municipal structures with a view to creating new nonracial communities. As we destroy these apartheid monsters, in their place we will establish new cities, towns and municipalities that are centres of pride and a celebration of nonracialism and our diversity.
Municipalities and their boundaries are key building blocks of a sovereign state. These boundaries are the basis of local democracy and governance. They make political and administrative life structured and manageable.
The passing of this Bill is an important step in the consolidation of our democracy, because boundaries create a bond between the people on the ground and the municipal structures. Stability and simplicity of our wards and municipal boundaries will facilitate the building of a sense of belonging among the residents of the area concerned and enhance participation in governance processes.
It should be noted that the determination of these boundaries was not a desktop process. Hearings and consultations have been held with a variety of strategic stakeholders. Among those stakeholders that participated is the Municipal Demarcation Board, the IEC, MECs of local government, Premiers of affected provinces and Salga. These consultations were aimed at sourcing wisdom and experiences from the different communities and organisations whose work would be affected by the re-determinations.
The ANC is pleased that the department has taken all reasonable steps to solicit the views of society in general and affected communities in particular. We are fully aware that the results of this Bill and the consultation processes will not satisfy all the people. The final product itself, we also note, would not be perfect but would lay a firm basis for us to create nonracial, economically viable centres and municipalities.
The newly re-determined boundaries are also important in the sense that they provide the country’s national election machinery with the basis on which to organise the forthcoming local government elections. Without these boundaries and this national piece of legislation it would not be possible for the elections to be held on the basis of the new boundaries.
It is also in this sense that the Bill before us is a contribution to the consolidation of our democracy and local system of governance. We call on all our people to accept these boundaries as presently re-determined and support all work to bring this matter to finality. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr M M SWATHE: Chairperson, hon members, the boundaries of municipalities have always been a problem to most of the communities across the country.
Communities have seriously complained about having their villages and areas divided or cut by the Municipal Demarcation Board. The most concern was the cross-boundary municipalities between provinces. People are still complaining over the service delivery for they do not know exactly which province should provide them with services. The latest example is the cross- boundary between Gauteng and Mpumalanga – the Kungwini Municipality – where tension and anger are still fresh. Yesterday, on 1 June 2005, there were protests.
The DA welcomes the changes in this Bill as a step in the right direction, which will enable people to prepare themselves better for the local government elections. We believe the turnout will be higher as some of the concerns are addressed. Although there are technical and minor changes, it will encourage the people to participate actively in the coming local elections.
However, we are concerned about the consultation that took place. It was in a short space of time and not all communities were properly consulted. We feel that people should have been given sufficient time and maps for them to put their proposals with regard to boundaries. We need to disseminate information in time and to decentralise the process, which will enable the public to participate. The top-down approach left too much to be desired.
The Bill therefore authorises the re-determination of the boundaries of certain cross-boundary municipalities and amends the Local Government: Cross-boundary Municipalities Act of 2000 by replacing the existing schedule describing cross-boundary municipalities with a schedule reflecting the re-determinations.
The DA supports this Bill. But, it does not go far enough. We believe that the Municipal Demarcation Board, with the support of the Minister, must do away with cross-boundary municipalities altogether. It is a pity that the consultation process with affected communities did not start earlier. Now, the Minister runs the risk of not completing the process before the elections.
I want to ask the Deputy Minister: will Parliament receive a Bill doing away with cross-boundary municipalities before the elections? The timing of this is, of course, also important - to have clarity on or before the voter registration weekends start to motivate the people to go all out to register.
Re le ba DA, re rata gore Tona le ba Demarcation Board ba lebeledišiše taba ye, gore batho ba kgone go ingwadišetša dikgetho tše di tlago le gore ba kgone go ya dikgethong ka bontši ka mo go kgonagalago. Ke a leboga, Modulasetulo. (Translation of Sepedi paragraph follows.)
[As the DA, we would appreciate it if the Minister and the Demarcation Board would look into this matter to enable people to register for the upcoming elections so that they are able to go to the elections in as large numbers as possible. Thank you, Chairperson.]
Mr P F SMITH: Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister and colleagues, the IFP supports the Bill. In fact every party, I imagine, supports the Bill. You can hardly not support it because there is really nothing to debate. This is not a Bill that comprises major policy issues, it merely comprises technical amendments to a number of cross-boundary municipalities.
In fact, the only reason we are debating it now is because in our previous legislation we required that a particular process be followed when we amend cross-boundary municipalities as when we do with non-cross-boundary municipalities, normally, outside of the CBM, the Municipal Demarcation Board follows a certain process and it goes through various stages.
Because it’s a cross-boundary municipality, it is formalised through different processes, but in reality in terms of the issues at stake, there is nothing to talk about. It is just about this boundary we shift from that road to that road and that this railway line pole is in the wrong place. It is really a minor thing from a policy point of view.
So, I don’t know why we debate it. But, be that as it may, we do support it. What is going to be interesting though is of course when we discuss the real Bill, which is the abolition of cross-boundary municipalities because that is actually the re-determination of new provincial boundaries. I think we will have a lot of excitement then. But for now, this is a very boring Bill. We support it.
I must say that I would like to express some deep regret at one level. I listened very carefully to my comrade’s address and I am very disappointed by the fact that he failed - not once did he mention the Freedom Charter. I think it is a serious omission. [Laughter.] [Applause.]
Ms S RAJBALLY: Chairperson, the MF has no objection to the authorisation of the re-determination of boundaries of certain cross-boundary municipalities, considering the fact that a number of metropolitan and local municipalities extend across provincial boundaries.
In line with the supreme law of South Africa, our Constitution stipulates in section 157(4) that a ward delimitated within the municipal boundary of a cross-boundary municipality may not extend across the provincial boundary concerned.
Furthermore, the MF has no objection with regard to the cross-boundary municipalities this Bill affects, but it would be wise to do away with cross-boundary municipalities before the local elections. It’s pleasing that the 16 cross-boundary municipalities’ residents have been consulted and hopefully this rezoning will give residents clear direction to those in service to them.
The MF supports this Bill. Thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]
Mtsna L M MASHIANE: Ke a leboga Modulasetulo. O kae mokgomana Swathe? Anke o itšweletše, papa. Ke kgopela gore ge re le dikopanong tša komiti, o bule ditsebe o kwe gore re bolela ka eng. O se ke wa tla mo wa bolela ka dilo tšeo re sego ra bolela ka tšona, gobane ke wene fela yo a bolelago ka dilo tšeo re sego ra bolela ka tšona. Ke a dumela gore o mo kwele gabotse mohlomphegi Smith ge a re tšeo o di boletšego ga se tšona le gore nako ya go bolela ka tšona ga se ya hlwe e fihla. (Translation of Sepedi paragraph follows.)
[Ms L M MASHIANE: Thank you, Chairperson. Where is the gentleman, Swathe? Please show your face, sir. I would like to request that you listen attentively to what is being said when we attend the committee meetings. You must not come here to talk about things that were not discussed there. I would like to believe that you have heard hon Smith clearly when he said that what you said is inappropriate and it is not yet time to talk about that.]
Chairperson, hon Deputy Minister for Provincial and Local Government, Comrade Nomatyala Hangana, hon members, ladies and gentlemen, it is perhaps appropriate to declare from the start that the ANC supports this Bill.
This Bill is brought to the House to enable the Municipal Demarcation Board to proceed with the re-determination and delimitation of the cross-boundary municipalities. The Bill was discussed in the portfolio committee and all parties supported and adopted it on 24 May 2005. This is in view of the reality that the historical line of reasoning in defence of apartheid demarcation or the history of demarcation was designed through the Group Areas Act and homeland Bantustans. This was orchestrated to maintain and enforce political control by the apartheid government. This was also done to ensure that resources could be redistributed along racial lines, further entrenching the unjust policy of separate development.
We as the ANC support the Bill because we see it within the context of the ongoing work of transforming our society. The purpose of this Bill is therefore to authorise the re-determination of the boundaries of certain cross-boundary municipalities. We believe that it is going to lay the foundations for more stable communities and sustainable municipalities. The issue of demarcation is therefore central in our task of transforming and developing local government.
We also hope that this Bill will resolve cross-boundary conflicts before our local government elections and restore the viability of delivery to affected communities. It is also hoped that the Bill will go a long way in consolidating and strengthening our system of local government.
This Bill addresses the concerns that have been raised by some communities. We therefore appeal to the affected communities to support the work that is going to follow in giving practical expression to the issue of the re- determination of boundaries. We express our thanks to the people for their patience. We want them to know that the ANC-led government has acknowledged the difficulties it has experienced.
This Bill will empower municipalities to fulfil their developmental duty of creating conditions for building a united nation that has a common identity where all have equal opportunities. In other words, the re-determination process that is authorised by this Bill would not only correct provincial boundaries that previously split communities but would also put an end to cross-boundary confrontation and ultimately unite communities. We believe in the correctness of this Bill and feel that the work that is going to follow would allow municipalities to improve the lives of their people.
With this Bill, we aim to fast-track the process of re-determining boundaries that are located within our understanding of the current challenges that are imposed upon us by the dynamics of our transition. The work that is going to follow is part of the overall transformation of local government, which stands to advance our national democratic developmental state.
As the ANC, we feel that this process will lay the foundations for us to make new advances with regard to improving the capacity of local government. We want people to know that the ANC is sensitive to the growing frustrations of communities who are affected by cross-boundaries. We are now opening up space for practical work to take place and at the same time open up the possibility for a move towards implementing powers and functions to advance a programme of the delivery of services with the intention of promoting the quality of life of the needy.
I want to say to the DA’s hon Swathe that in future he must not come here and make statements that he will not be able to substantiate.
Lastly, we propose the adoption of the Bill by this House.
The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Chairperson and members, transformation and the development of our country are in motion. I would like to thank all the members who participated in this short debate. Mr Smith from the IFP has actually correctly said that this was a technical Bill. We really should not have had a debate over it. It was really just technicalities that we are confronted with.
I also want to say to the member from the DA who stood here that I get very worried when you try to mislead us as members of Parliament, but I get equally worried when you go out to your constituency, and one is just horrified at what you are telling them is taking place. [Interjections.]
This Bill is not dealing with the Municipal Demarcation Board as such, but is dealing with technicalities enabling them to do their work. Dealing with cross-boundaries had nothing to do with this Bill, so I hope that when you go back to your constituency, you will be able to convey the correct information on what this Bill is all about, and not try to mislead them in future. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
Bill read a second time.
SOUTH AFRICAN SPORTS COMMISSION ACT REPEAL BILL
(Second Reading debate)
There was no debate.
Bill read a second time.
MINERALS AND ENERGY LAWS AMENDMENT BILL
(Second Reading debate)
There was no debate.
Bill read a second time.
SECTIONAL TITLES AMENDMENT BILL
(Second Reading debate)
There was no debate.
Bill read a second time.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT - PROTOCOL ON LEGAL AFFAIRS IN THE SOUTHERN
AFRICAN DEVELOPMENT COMMUNITY (SADC)
Ms F I CHOHAN-KHOTA: Chairperson, I shan’t be very long.
I just want to say that the structures of the Southern African Development Community have, since the initial signing of this protocol, undergone complete restructuring and rationalisation of its component sectors.
The legal sector, which is what this protocol deals with, established by this protocol has been completely phased out and replaced. As a result, should Parliament ratify this protocol and it comes into force, none of the member states will be bound by its provisions, as the implementing structures have been phased out.
Accordingly, the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development recommends that the House not approve the ratification of this protocol.
There was no debate.
Question put: That the Report be adopted and that the Protocol therefore not be approved.
Agreed to.
Report adopted.
Protocol on Legal Affairs in the Southern African Development Community (SADC) not approved.
CONSIDERATION OF REQUEST FOR APPROVAL BY PARLIAMENT OF AFRICAN UNION
CONVENTION ON THE PREVENTION AND COMBATING OF CORRUPTION, IN TERMS OF
SECTION 231(2) OF CONSTITUTION
Mr P J GOMOMO: Madam Chairperson and the hon House, the Portfolio Committee on Public Service and Administration considered the AU Convention on the Prevention and Combating of Corruption.
After the consideration of this convention, the committee submitted a report to the hon House, and recommended that the House approve the convention. I rise to once more recommend that this House should approve this convention and adopt it for purposes of dealing with issues relating to preventing and combating corruption in the continent, and how that should affect and guide us as a nation.
We have come a long way as the nations of the continent to speak with one voice on issues that affect us, and it is just the right thing to continue to speak with one voice, even today, tomorrow and forever.
We came together to speak with one voice to advance the cause of the struggle for freedom when we formed the Organisation for African Unity, some 42 years ago. We did that because it was only if we had acted in a united fashion that we would multiply our chances of victory against our colonisers and their collaborators.
Today we are speaking with one voice to deal with the issues that confront us as free nations of Africa. The African Union is the platform for the co- ordination of efforts and activities to advance the cause of peace, stability and good governance in the continent, and primarily in guiding the actions of our respective nations.
We have to talk about ourselves, and the contributions we are making to make Africa a better continent for all. It is on record that South Africa, under the government of the ANC, is a country with a vision and a commitment to contributing to a better Africa, and we can only afford to continue with this.
In as far as dealing with the purpose of the convention is concerned, we want to state that we are not only talking about corruption, but we are doing all that we have to do to prevent and fight it. We developed legislation and policies to deal with the question of corruption in the country and we created structures that are doing their best in this venture.
Our call for this House to approve the AU convention is informed by the reality that we are compliant with the objectives and all other articles thereof. The objectives of the convention are to promote and strengthen the development in Africa by each state party of mechanisms required to protect, detect, punish and eradicate corruption and related offences in the public and private sectors.
It seeks to promote, facilitate and regulate co-operation among the state parties to ensure the effectiveness of measures and actions to prevent, detect, punish and eradicate corruption and related offences in Africa. It has to co-ordinate and harmonise the policies and legislation between state parties for the purposes of prevention, detection, punishment and eradication of corruption on the continent.
It strives to promote socioeconomic development by removing obstacles to the enjoyment of economic, social and cultural rights as well as civil and political rights. It should establish the necessary co-ordinations to foster transparency and accountability in the management of public affairs.
It was in that context, as informed by these objectives, that the 53 member states of the AU adopted the Convention on the Prevention and Combating of Corruption on 11 July 2003 in Maputo. To date, the convention has been signed by 35 member states. South Africa signed it on 16 April 2004. It has so far been ratified or acceded to by only nine member states out of the 53 member states. The convention will only become operational when at least 15 member states have ratified it, and properly notified the AU of their accession to the convention.
As we considered this convention at the portfolio committee level, it was our wish, and it remains our wish, that not only should we as the South African Parliament ratify the convention, but also we should, as individual members and parties, commit ourselves to promoting the convention. Again, as we considered this convention as a committee, we noted the emphasis laid in the convention, as in Article 24, that even in the event of a state party taking an option to express a reservation, such will not be done in a manner incompatible with the objectives and purposes of the convention.
We submit that the House approve the convention. Thank you. [Applause.]
There was no debate.
African Union Convention on the Prevention and Combating of Corruption approved.
The House adjourned at 16:12. ____
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS
ANNOUNCEMENTS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
-
Bills passed by Houses – to be submitted to President for assent
(1) Bill passed by National Council of Provinces on 2 June 2005:
(i) Appropriation Bill [B 7 – 2005] (National Assembly – sec 77)
-
Classification of Bills by Joint Tagging Mechanism
(1) The Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) on 1 June 2005 in terms of
Joint Rule 160(3), classified the following Bill as section 75
Bill:
(i) Armaments Corporation of South Africa, Limited Amendment
Bill [B 14 – 2005] (National Assembly – sec 75)
- Translations of Bills submitted
(1) The Minister of Sport and Recreation
(i) Wetsontwerp op die Herroeping van die Wet op die Suid-
Afrikaanse Sportkommissie [W 13 – 2005] (National Assembly –
sec 75)
This is the official translation into Afrikaans of the South
African Sports Commission Act Repeal Bill [B 13 – 2005] (National
Assembly – sec 75).
COMMITTEE REPORTS
National Assembly
-
Report of the Portfolio Committee on Water Affairs and Forestry on Erratum on Budget Vote 34 Report, dated 1 June 2005.
Amendment to the Report of the Portfolio Committee on Water Affairs and Forestry on Budget Vote 34, dated 13 April 2005, published in ATC no 56 – 2005 on Thursday 26 May 2005.
Amendment of paragraph 3.8 of the report, the new paragraph should read as follows:
3.8 Geo-sphere
Geo-sphere briefed the Committee on its work particularly in relation to opposing timber plantations and their “Value Grassland” project. The Chairperson raised the fact that the presentation did not address the budget vote. Notwithstanding the presentation would be to the Committee.
The Chairperson therefore decided that the discussion would be entertained in this regard, but requested that Geo-sphere be invited to do a full presentation in another meeting. The works of Geo-sphere will then be dealt with separately from the budget vote.
-
Report of the Portfolio Committee on Finance on Agreement between the Republic of South Africa and the Republic of Turkey for the Avoidance of Double Taxation and the Prevention of Fiscal Evasion with respect to Taxes on Income and Capital Gains, dated 1 June 2005:
The Portfolio Committee on Finance, having considered the request for approval by Parliament of the Agreement between the Republic of South Africa and the Republic of Turkey for the Avoidance of Double Taxation and the Prevention of Fiscal Evasion with respect to Taxes on Income and Capital Gains, referred to it, recommends that the House, in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, approve the said Agreement.
Request to be considered.
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Report of the Portfolio Committee on Finance on Convention between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the Republic of Ghana for the Avoidance of Double Taxation and the Prevention of Fiscal Evasion with respect to Taxes on Income and Capital Gains, dated 1 June 2005:
The Portfolio Committee on Finance, having considered the request for approval by Parliament of the Convention between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the Republic of Ghana for the Avoidance of Double Taxation and the Prevention of Fiscal Evasion with respect to Taxes on Income and Capital Gains referred to it, recommends that the House, in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, approve the said Convention. Request to be considered.
-
Report of the Portfolio Committee on Finance on Convention between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the Republic of Gabon for the Avoidance of Double Taxation and the Prevention of Fiscal Evasion with respect to Taxes on Income, dated 1 June 2005:
The Portfolio Committee on Finance, having considered the request for approval by Parliament of the Convention between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the Republic of Gabon for the Avoidance of Double Taxation and the Prevention of Fiscal Evasion with respect to Taxes on Income referred to it, recommends that the House, in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, approve the said Convention.
Request to be considered.
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Report of the Portfolio Committee on Finance on Convention between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the Democratic Republic of Congo for the Avoidance of Double Taxation and the Prevention of Fiscal Evasion with respect to Taxes on Income, dated 1 June 2005:
The Portfolio Committee on Finance, having considered the request for approval by Parliament of the Convention between the Government of the Republic of South Africa and the Government of the Democratic Republic of Congo for the Avoidance of Double Taxation and the Prevention of Fiscal Evasion with respect to Taxes on Income referred to it, recommends that the House, in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, approve the said Convention.
Request to be considered.