TUESDAY, 2 JUNE 2005 __

          PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES

                                ____

The Council met at 14:06.

The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, I am informed that we won’t have motions today. I will therefore ask the Secretary to read the first Order of the Day.

                         APPROPRIATION BILL


                (Consideration of Votes and Schedule

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, I have been informed that there will not be any questions put to the Minister. I shall now put the Votes in the order in which they appear on the Schedule to the Bill.

Vote No 1 – The Presidency – put. Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote No 2 – Parliament – put. Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Vote No 3 – Foreign Affairs – put. Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Vote No 4 – Home Affairs - put. Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Vote No 5 – Provincial and Local Government – put. Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution (Democratic Alliance and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

Vote No 6 – Public Works – put. Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Vote No 7 – Government Communication and Information System – put. Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote No 8 – National Treasury – put. Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Vote No 9 - Public Enterprises – put. Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Vote No 10 – Public Service and Administration – put. Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution (Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

Vote No 11 – Public Service Commission – put. Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Vote No 12 – South African Management Development Institute - put. Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Vote No 13 – Statistics South Africa – put. Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Vote No 14 – Arts and Culture – put. Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution (Democratic Alliance and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

Vote No 15 – Education – put.

Declarations of Vote:

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, I propose that we conduct the business of declarations like we did the previous year for time management purposes because it’s not a long speech. We agreed to this in the multiparty Whips, meeting. It will take two minutes, which we can make in record time from the seats where we are seated so that we don’t move up and down to the podium. That’s the suggestion.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I think that is agreed. You can address us from where you are, Mr Thetjeng.

Mr O M THETJENG: Chairperson, education prioritisation shows poor planning. A sizeable number of schools across the country do not have adequate facilities to qualify to be called schools. The President has requested in the state of the nation address that classes conducted under trees and in unacceptable structures like mud huts and shacks must be eliminated as a matter of urgency. This was not achieved despite money remaining unspent.

Teachers across the country continue to be employed on a temporary basis, up to ten years or even more. The ANC-controlled government has passed labour laws, which they failed to implement, thus denying these wonderful teachers job security. Where are the teachers’ unions that claim to represent them; or have they become part of the ANC government, forgetting about their members? “Phiri ya mekoka mabedi e pharoga noka!” [A double- minded man will never succeed!]

This will eventually knock on the door of the ANC-led government, sooner or later. To whom should these laws apply; to private companies only or both private and public entities? “Hupfi li takala li tshi koka lingwe didingwe li tshi kokwa li ri mavhala anga!” [They say one enjoys harming someone else, but when the same is done to one, one complains.]

Who is fooling who, and for what good reason? The DA will not support this Budget Vote. Thank you, Chairperson.

Mr M A SULLIMAN: Chairperson, I think I rise in support of this Budget Vote on Education - just to say that it reminds me of what happened before 1994. Before the ANC came into power we had a very fragmented education system in South Africa. We had almost 19 departments of education and when we were elected into power it was then, of course, our responsibility and duties to make sure that we have a nonracial and nonsexist society in South Africa. We are in the process of transforming South Africa even as far as education is concerned.

It makes sense to me today here that the DA is very uncomfortable with the progress that we have made as far as education is concerned. With these few words the ANC supports this Vote with a big smile on its face. I thank you. [Applause.]

Division demanded.

The Council divided:

AYES - 36: Adams, F; Botha, D J; Dlulane, B N; Gamede, D D; Goeieman, M C; Kolweni, Z S; Mabe, S E; Mack, N; Manyosi, A T; Masilo, J; Matlanyane, H F; Mazibuko, F; Mchunu, A N T; Mkono, D G; Moatshe, P; Mokoena, L M; Moseki, A L; Mzizi, M A; Ntuli, Z C; Ntwanambi, N; Nyanda, F; Oliphant, M N; Ralane, T S; Robertson, M O; Setona, T S; Sibiya, J; Sinclair, K; Sogoni, E M; Sulliman, M A; Tau, R J; Themba, M P; Tlhagale, J O; Tolo, J B; Van Rooyen, C J; Vilakazi, J N; Windvoël, V V Z.

NOES - 10: Chen, S S; Krumbock, G R; Lamoela, H; Le Roux, J W; Loe, S J; Robinson, D; Terblanche, J F; Thetjeng, O M; Van Heerden, F J; Worth, D A.

Vote accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Vote No 16 - Health – put.

Declarations of Vote:

Mr O M THETJENG: Chairperson, the story of beetroot, cabbage, garlic, olive oil and many other vegetables being branded every day as the most needed nutrition in one’s body has been taught throughout the ages by our teachers. Every person who has gone through school is well aware of this; if not, then you must go back to the classroom and be properly taught.

These products and the vitamins promoted by Matthias Rath of the Dr Rath Health Foundation cannot replace the antiretroviral drugs. The DA has never propagated a story that says these drugs cure HIV/Aids, but they can extend the life of the sufferer thereby ensuring that infected mothers and fathers are able to take care of their children much longer and avoid making them orphans at an early stage of their lives.

These drugs will prevent the spread of HIV/Aids from the pregnant mothers infected by this dreaded disease to newly born babies. This will cut the number of children infected by this disease. We call for the full roll-out of these drugs in all the corners of this country, and that infected pregnant mothers be prioritised.

Hospitals such as the Pretoria Academic were constructed without proper planning. As of February 2005, this hospital stands completed, without equipment. Therefore, the DA will oppose this Budget Vote. Thank you, Chairperson.

Mrs J N VILAKAZI: The IFP, though it supports the Budget Vote, has these declarations to be noted: Firstly, the Department of Health is faced with many challenges, which are daily crippling and strangling the quality care supposed to be given to all patients.

Secondly, the highly qualified hospital staff members leave the country in droves to serve other countries abroad for better salaries and other privileges experienced internationally. We need more resources to curb this erosion which destroys our hospitals’ smooth functioning on a daily basis.

Thirdly, hospital equipment needs more resources for maintenance, upgrading and old equipment to be replaced to facilitate work performance. Fourthly, the HIV/Aids pandemic, to be managed well, needs more funds for better home- based care facilities, ARV roll-out and so on. Finally, better salaries and incentives to overpressured, hard working hospital staff, doctors and nurses, including all paramedics.

The Health budget presented is too far from achieving all these essentials. Thank you, Chairperson.

Mr T S SETONA: Chairperson, the 27 April 1994 democratic breakthrough marked a new chapter of ridding our society of all forms of human deprivation, including the deprivation of the right to health.

The World Health Organisation has declared health to be a fundamental human right. In this regard the ANC-led government, in the pursuit of this international principle and the vision of the Freedom Charter, has succeeded to make the provision of free medical care and hospitalisation available to vulnerable sections of our people – children and pregnant women.

Through the comprehensive strategy against HIV/Aids, the department has allocated more resources to ensure that prevention, care and support for the ongoing research for the cure of this disease is intensified.

We further welcome the department’s aggressive programme of promoting a positive lifestyle that will go a long way in preventing many diseases that continue to inflict our people. I therefore rise on behalf of the ANC to support this Budget Vote. Thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]

Division demanded.

The Council divided:

AYES - 37: Adams, F; Botha, D J; Dlulane, B N; Gamede, D D; Goeieman, M C; Hollander, P; Kolweni, Z S; Mabe, S E; Mack, N; Manyosi, A T; Masilo, J; Matlanyane, H F; Mazibuko, F; Mchunu, A N T; Mkono, D G; Moatshe, P; Mokoena, L M; Moseki, A L; Mzizi, M A; Ntuli, Z C; Ntwanambi, N; Nyanda, F; Oliphant, M N; Ralane, T S; Robertson, M O; Setona, T S; Sibiya, J; Sinclair, K; Sogoni, E M; Sulliman, M A; Tau, R J; Themba, M P; Tlhagale, J O; Tolo, J B; Van Rooyen, C J; Vilakazi, J N; Windvoël, V V Z.

NOES - 10: Chen, S S; Krumbock, G R; Lamoela, H; Le Roux, J W; Loe, S J; Robinson, D; Terblanche, J F; Thetjeng, O M; Van Heerden, F J; Worth, D A.

Vote accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Vote No 17 - Labour – put.

Declarations of Vote:

Mrs J N VILAKAZI: The IFP, though supporting the Budget Vote, has these declarations: Firstly, unemployment is high in this country – about 40%. More money is needed to create employment opportunities to the masses of unemployed people; and secondly, demonstrations by unions show instability as more workers lose their jobs when some firms close down or when workers are retrenched.

These demonstrations also scare away would-be investors and business companies who are interested in creating work opportunities in this country.

The budget for this department will not be able to achieve all the above- mentioned. Thank you, Chairperson.

Ms P M THEMBA: Chairperson, . . . “ngisukuma nekusekela ibudget yeLitiko Letemisebenti. Uma ngabe . . . “ [I rise to support the budget of the Department of Labour. If . . .]

If the hon member from the IFP was a member who attended meetings, she would recall that yesterday we were briefed on the strategic plan of the department, and if she were there she could have understood that the Budget Vote will be in a position to solve all that she is raising, and that the plans are about what she is expecting. Thank you, Chairperson.

Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution (Democratic Alliance and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

Vote No 18 - Social Development – put.

Declarations of Vote:

Me H LAMOELA: Mnr die Voorsitter, die Departement van Maatskaplike Ontwikkeling is een van die sterkste pilare van hulp en verligting vir armes, tog ook een van die mees korrupte. Die baie hoë persentasie van korrupsie, veral onder amptenare van die departement, is betreurenswaardig en dit is skokkend om te vind dat dit juis dié persone wie in posisies van vertroue geplaas is om die armes se ellende te help verlig, die grootste sondebokke is.

Die NRO’s is in die lewe geroep om armoede te verlig en ‘n beter lewe aan werkloses en armes te bied. Die regering se aksie van vermindering van toelaes aan NRO’s kan in hierdie stadium ‘n rampspoedige uitwerking hê op die bewerkstellig van ‘n beter lewe vir betrokkenes.

Welsynwerkers, wat gegradueerdes insluit en een van die baie belangrike bronne van die Welsyn Departement uitmaak, gaan steeds gebuk onder karige salarisse en werksomstandighede wat die beroep geensins aantreklik vir belangstellendes maak nie.

Toelaes vir kinders onder 13 jaar is die beste aansporing vir jong meisies om verwagtend te raak. Waarom ontneem die staat die verpligting van die betrokke vaders wat hierdie kinders verwek het, om self hul kinders te onderhou? ‘n Basiese inkomste toelae sal ‘n groter bate vir kinders wees. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Ms H LAMOELA: Mr Chairperson, the Department of Social Development is one of the strongest pillars of support and relief for the poor, yet also one of the most corrupt. The extremely high percentage of corruption, particularly among officials in the department, is regrettable and it is shocking to find that it is precisely these people who are placed in positions of trust to help relieve the suffering of the poor who are the greatest scoundrels.

The NGOs were called into existence to help relieve poverty and to provide a better life for the unemployed and poor. At this time the government’s actions of reducing grants to NGOs could only have a catastrophic effect with regard to achieving better life for all those concerned.

Social workers, which includes graduates, who are one of the very important resources of the Department of Social Development, are still burdened by meagre salaries and working conditions that do not in the least make the occupation attractive to those who are interested in it.

Grants for children under 13 years are the best incentive for young girls to fall pregnant. Why does the state take away from the fathers, who begot these children, the obligation to support their own children? A basic income grant would be a greater asset for children.]

The DA does not support the Budget Vote. Thank you, Chairperson.

Ms J MASILO: Modulasetulo, difofu ga di bone; di batla dithobane tse tshweu gore di bone tsela mo Lefapheng la rona la Katlaatleloloago le Tekanyetsokabo ya lone. Re e ema nokeng go tlala seatla. [Chairperson, blind people cannot see, they need white walking sticks so that they can “see” the road. We support the Department of Social Services and its budget.]

South Africa cannot realise the goal of peace and stability whilst the masses of the population – women and children in particular - are subjected to hunger and whilst the few live with an abundance of resources.

Our comprehensive social security programme rolled out by the Department of Social Development through a myriad of grants is amongst the best in the developing countries.

We welcome the initiative by the Minister to call for amnesty for people who voluntarily declared – more than 60 000 of them – receipt of grants whilst they were not entitled to them. This has saved the department lots of money that can be directed to rightful beneficiaries. The social security agency will go a long way in creating efficient and integrated management and delivery of grants. The ANC fully supports the Budget Vote with a smile. Thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]

Division demanded.

The Council divided:

AYES - 37: Adams, F; Botha, D J; Dlulane, B N; Gamede, D D; Goeieman, M C; Hollander, P; Kolweni, Z S; Mabe, S E; Mack, N; Manyosi, A T; Masilo, J; Matlanyane, H F; Mazibuko, F; Mchunu, A N T; Mkono, D G; Moatshe, P; Mokoena, L M; Moseki, A L; Mzizi, M A; Ntuli, Z C; Ntwanambi, N; Nyanda, F; Oliphant, M N; Ralane, T S; Robertson, M O; Setona, T S; Sibiya, J; Sinclair, K; Sogoni, E M; Sulliman, M A; Tau, R J; Themba, M P; Tlhagale, J O; Tolo, J B; Van Rooyen, C J; Vilakazi, J N; Windvoël, V V Z.

NOES - 10: Chen, S S; Krumbock, G R; Lamoela, H; Le Roux, J W; Loe, S J; Robinson, D; Terblanche, J F; Thetjeng, O M; Van Heerden, F J; Worth, D A.

Vote accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Vote No 19 – Sport and Recreation South Africa – put. Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution (Democratic Alliance and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

Vote No 20 – Correctional Services – put. Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote No 21 – Defence – put. Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution (Freedom Front Plus and Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Ms A N T MCHUNU: Chairperson, I am rising on Vote 21 – Correctional Services. A while ago the Department of Correctional Services experienced problems regarding overtime coupled with remuneration . . . [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Are you rising on a point of order, hon Chief Whip?

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, on a point of order: We have already gone beyond Vote 21. We would advise that parties be vigilant so that they exercise their constitutional right to make declarations of vote or objections, or call for a division at the appropriate time, because once you slip through your breakfast and you wake up during lunch-time you cannot then demand that your breakfast be put on the table.

Vote No 22 – Independent Complaints Directorate – put. Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote No 23 - Justice and Constitutional Development – put.

Declarations of Vote:

Mr M A MZIZI: Chairperson, we support the Budget Vote. We know that the problems we have had in the past regarding magistrates’ salaries are receiving attention. However, I would like to hear whether the department is going to be in a position to shoulder the burden of the magistrates’ merit awards. The reason is that the policy regarding these awards has not been repealed, and therefore we would like to know how are we going to go pass that hurdle. Thank you, Sir.

The CHAIRPERSON OF NCOP: I hope that is not a question, but a declaration of vote.

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Chairperson, I want to express my appreciation for the support of the IFP. They were not just making a statement; they supported this Budget Vote.

It is of note that our Bench, some years back, was lily-white, but now it reflects the demography of this country. Any person can now approach any magistrate and get the same treatment, regardless of his colour or race. So, on that note, having been supported by the IFP, the ANC supports this Budget Vote. Thank you.

Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote No 24 - Safety and Security – put.

Declarations of Vote:

Ms S J LOE: Hon Chair, as the official opposition the DA finds it impossible to support this Vote while serious crime remains at unacceptably high levels.

The notorious Resolution 7, which has led to police being redeployed on the basis of race, has led to added stress amongst members of SAPS. It has also led to even poorer service delivery to the public. Police members who have found themselves in a strange police station are understandably lacking in local knowledge. Very often, simple communication is a problem because no thought has been given to the fact that some police cannot speak, read or write in the language of the communities they have been redeployed to serve.

Poor pay obviously now also leads to low morale and poor service delivery. There still exists either shortages of vital equipment in SAPS or a poorly managed allocation of resources, such as response vehicles and bulletproof vests. Individual police members still attest to the fact that if they don’t personally repair their state vehicles - which they can’t do, it’s against regulations, but they do - there would be even less cars available to them.

Forensic laboratories, child protection units and detective services are understaffed and undertrained, therefore, they underperform. In the case of forensic laboratories, they are simply unable to process evidence quickly enough and this leads to acquittals and low conviction rates.

Lastly, there is still an ongoing battle to get annual crime statistics, which should be readily available to the public, out of the government. Therefore, the DA does not support this Vote.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, on a point of order: The hon member made reference to an official opposition, which we don’t have in the House. That statement will have to be corrected.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Yes, actually we don’t have an official opposition in this House, Ms Loe. Just say DA.

Ms S J LOE: I did say DA as well.

Mnu M A MZIZI: Sihlalo, yize i-IFP iyixhasa le voti yesabiwomali soMnyango wezokuPhepha nokuVikela kodwa kukhona okuncane okusalayo esifisa ukukuphawula. Uma sizwa ngamahebezi, kukhona inkulumo ethi uphiko lwe- Scorpion luzodidiyelwa ndawonye namaphoyisa emnyangweni kaNgqongqoshe. Inkinga ye-IFP ukuthi amalungu ophiko lwe-Scorpion ahola iholo eliphezulu. Uma le nkulumo iphumelela, udaba lwamaholo luyoba yinkinga. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[Mr M A MZIZI: Chairperson, although the IFP supports this Budget Vote of the Department of Safety and Security, we still want to make submissions on a few outstanding issues. We heard rumours that there is a proposal to integrate the Scorpions with the department of the hon Minister. The problem of the IFP is that the Scorpions are earning high salaries. Should this move be a success, the issue of salaries will be a problem.]

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, on a point of order: In reality there is a commission, which is still investigating whether the Scorpions have to be integrated, restructured or stand alone. So, it is a matter that is still sub judice, and I think it is not in order or parliamentary for us to make statements in the House about rumours which are circulating in the media.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Well, I don’t think it’s sub judice because it’s not before the courts. It’s a commission, but you can make a statement.

Mnu M A MZIZI: Ngiyabonga sihlalo ngokungivikela. Uma ngabe kwenzeka-ke lolu daba luqhubeka, kungenzeka kuze kufikelele ekutheni kusiwane ezinkantolo. Besithanda-ke ukuthi sikhulume kusemanje ukuthi akuhlinzekelwe lokhu uma ngabe kwenzeka ukuze singangeni enkingeni. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[Mr M A MZIZI: Thank you, Chairperson, for your protection. If this matter continues, there is a likelihood of having it going into litigation. We are therefore encouraging debate at this stage so that we could find a mechanism to address this problem when it occurs in order to avoid further problems.]

Mr Z C NTULI: Chairperson, firstly, I would like to say that transformation is a process; transformation is not an event. So “. . . mayelana nalezi zinto ezikhulunywa u-Shirley Loe, okokuqala akayi emihlanganweni yekomidi kodwa ufika nje ngalelo langa uma ezwa kuthanda yena.” [. . . in relation to what Shirley Loe said, in the first place she does not attend committee meetings, although she comes once in a while when she likes.]

So, whatever we discuss, she is not there and I’m surprised that the DA is delegating her to represent them . . .

. . . ngoba angazi noma bayazi yini ukuthi akezi emihlanganweni yekomidi. [Uhleko.] Okwesibili, baba uMzizi, uphiko lwe-Scorpions lungaphansi koMnyango wezobuLungiswa nokuThuthukiswa koMthethosisekelo okwamanje. Mhlawumbe bekuzoba ngcono ukuba ufake lesi sikhalo sakho kuwona umnyango hhayi lapha eMnyangweni wezokuPhepha nokuVikela. Ngiyabonga Sihlalo. I-ANC iyaseseka isabiwomali. [Ihlombe.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[. . . because I do not know whether or not they know that she does not attend committee meetings. [Laughter.] Secondly, hon Mzizi, the Scorpions fall under the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development . . . Constitution now. It would have been better if you had lodged your concern with that department, not with the Department of Safety and Security. Thank you, Chairperson, the ANC supports this Budget Vote.] [Applause.]]

Division demanded.

The Council divided:

AYES - 37: Adams, F; Botha, D J; Dlulane, B N; Gamede, D D; Goeieman, M C; Hollander, P; Kolweni, Z S; Mabe, S E; Mack, N; Manyosi, A T; Masilo, J; Matlanyane, H F; Mazibuko, F; Mchunu, A N T; Mkono, D G; Moatshe, P; Mokoena, L M; Moseki, A L; Mzizi, M A; Ntuli, Z C; Ntwanambi, N; Nyanda, F; Oliphant, M N; Ralane, T S; Robertson, M O; Setona, T S; Sibiya, J; Sinclair, K; Sogoni, E M; Sulliman, M A; Tau, R J; Themba, M P; Tlhagale, J O; Tolo, J B; Van Rooyen, C J; Vilakazi, J N; Windvoël, V V Z.

NOES- 10: Chen, S S; Krumbock, G R; Lamoela, H; Le Roux, J W; Loe, S J; Robinson, D; Terblanche, J F; Thetjeng, O M; Van Heerden, F J; Worth, D A.

Vote accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Vote No 25—Agriculture—put. Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Vote No 26 - Communications – put. Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Vote No 27 - Environmental Affairs and Tourism – put. Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Vote No 28 - Housing – put.

Declarations of Vote:

Mr G R KRUMBOCK: The DA supports the principle of subsidised state housing for the poor and the marginalised of our communities. However, it is a cause of profound disquiet when increased budget allocations do not result in increased housing delivery, which has been the case for a number of years now.

The department and other housing agencies have disclosed that there are numerous housing projects across the country dating as far back as 1996 that have yet to be completed, which seriously calls into question the department’s statement that they have delivered more than 1,6 million houses.

Even though more than 1,6 million subsidies have been paid, it is clear that the number of subsidies paid out does not correspond to the actual number of houses constructed. This is, after all, why the Minister has launched yet another audit in what she coyly calls “blocked projects”.

The mooted increase to the NHBRC warranty scheme to above 1,3% is a crippling blow to home owners who will have to absorb even higher costs caused by bad building practices. Instead of ensuring that bad builders are penalised, this cost is being passed on to all home owners to the benefit of the banking industry. The DA does not support the Housing budget.

Ms A N T MCHUNU: Chair, goals have been set to address the problems of housing in this country. There is no doubt that the department has suffered a lot with structures being built halfway or not completed and tenders disappearing, causing housing backlogs.

We are faced with three problems: firstly, people who needed houses had to go to Thubelitsha; secondly, people on the waiting list also had to get houses; thirdly, people were evicted by banks, because they no longer had subsidies, and they were stranded. Is this budget going to be enough to meet all of this? Thank you.

Mr Z C NTULI: Chairperson, I think it is a pity and embarrassing for the DA and the IFP, in the first place, to make such declarations. Perhaps it is important for us to remind them that during the Budget Vote debate they in actual fact supported the Vote. It seems that they suffer from selective amnesia. [Laughter.]

Perhaps it is important for those who object to the Vote to remember once more that South Africa is different today. Today life is different; millions of our people have houses that have been built, they have got sanitation that has been provided and proper infrastructure that has been put in place.

It is a pity that Mr Krumbrock, even during the briefing by the department on their strategic plan, was not present. As if what we have done is not enough, our Minister has informed us of government’s vision for 2014. She announced a human settlement plan. The fundamental objective is to do away with informal settlements in order for our people to live in dignity, and of course that particular dignity must be restored, since it has been destroyed by the DA during their apartheid era governance. [Interjections.]

In any case, I’m not surprised by the attitude of the DA, to them it is important for our people to be housed in shacks; to them it is important for our people to live far from their workplaces. [Interjections.] It is obviously painful for the DA to see progress in regard to housing provision in our country. [Interjections.] Our people are tired of living in ghettos; our people are tired of using ghetto communal toilets; our people are tired, of course . . . [Interjections.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Give the member time to speak please!

Mr Z C NTULI: Chair, may I take the opportunity to invite the DA leaders to Phuthanang settlement in Galeshewe, where people have recently been given houses; to Donkerhoek, where our people have just recently been given houses; to Mataleng, where all the people living in poor areas have recently been given decent houses - and let them go and tell our people that the ANC has not delivered. I don’t think that they will last there for even more than a minute, because our people will never agree with them. [Interjections.] Therefore, as the ANC, we support the Budget Vote.

Division demanded.

The Council divided:

AYES - 37: Adams, F; Botha, D J; Dlulane, B N; Gamede, D D; Goeieman, M C; Hollander, P; Kolweni, Z S; Mabe, S E; Mack, N; Manyosi, A T; Masilo, J; Matlanyane, H F; Mazibuko, F; Mchunu, A N T; Mkono, D G; Moatshe, P; Mokoena, L M; Moseki, A L; Mzizi, M A; Ntuli, Z C; Ntwanambi, N; Nyanda, F; Oliphant, M N; Ralane, T S; Robertson, M O; Setona, T S; Sibiya, J; Sinclair, K; Sogoni, E M; Sulliman, M A; Tau, R J; Themba, M P; Tlhagale, J O; Tolo, J B; Van Rooyen, C J; Vilakazi, J N; Windvoël, V V Z.

NOES - 9: Chen, S S; Krumbock, G R; Lamoela, H; Le Roux, J W; Loe, S J; Robinson, D; Terblanche, J F; Thetjeng, O M; Worth, D A.

ABSTAIN - 1: Van Heerden, F J.

Vote accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Vote No 29 - Land Affairs – put. Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution (Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

Vote No 30 - Minerals and Energy – put. Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution (Democratic Alliance and Freedom Front Plus dissenting).

Vote No 31 - Science and Technology – put. Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Vote No 32 - Trade and Industry – put. Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution (Freedom Front Plus and Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote No 33 – Transport – put.

Declarations of Vote:

Mnu M A MZIZI: Sihlalo, kuseyikho lokho ukuthi i-IFP iyalixhasa iVoti lezokuThutha. Kodwa kubalulekile ukuthi sithumele umyalezo kumnyango ukuze lokhu kungasileli emuva, ngesimo leso phela esazi kahle ukuthi siwudaba oluwundabuzekwayo – uhlelo lwe-recapitalisation.

Kuwudaba olwaziwayo ukuthi lo mkhankaso uzothatha imali eningi ngenkathi izikorokoro ziphindiswa kuhulumeni, ezithenga. Kodwa okukhulu kakhulu ukuthi nezinqola ezisezintsha nje impela kuthiwa zizolinganiswa naleyo mali yezikorokoro. Lokho-ke kungase kudale ukusuka komkhulu umsindo uma lolu daba lungabuyekezwa kahle ukuze wonke umuntu aneliswe ngoba phela inqola entsha nendala ngeke zilinganiswe nje bese kuthiwa abantu bazonikwa imali eyi-R50 000 ngokulingana.

Yilokho esikubonayo ukuthi kungahle kususe umsindo. Ngakho-ke sicela ukuthi uma lolu daba lucubungulwa, lubuyekezwe kahle ukuze imali yanele ukukhokhela bonke laba bantu. (Translation of isiZulu speech follows.)

[Mr M A MZIZI: Chairperson, as usual the IFP supports the Budget Vote for Transport. It is important to send a message to the department so that this matter, the issue of recapitalisation that is mostly talked about these days, is not left out.

It is well known that this campaign will cost the government more money if the government buys scrapped vehicles. It does not sound right to equate the price of scrapped vehicles with that of new vehicles. This will lead to confrontation if this matter is not addressed and reviewed to the satisfaction of everyone, because one cannot equate new vehicles and scrapped ones by giving R50 000 across the board.

This is what we suspect could cause chaos. We therefore ask that this matter be reviewed and properly addressed so that money is made available to pay these people.]

Rev P MOATSHE: Modulasetulo, ANC e ema nokeng tekanyetsokabo e. Le fa ANC e amogela tekanyetsokabo e, ga se yona fela; go na le dipuisano magareng ga Mokgatlho wa setšhaba le batho bao ba tshwereng dirori tse di rwalang batho go tswa mafelong go ya mafelong gore go fetolelwe kwa diroring tse di botoka. Seo se ya go diragala fela fa go na le ditumalano magareng ga mokgatlho o o busang le batho ba ba rwalang batho ka dirori tsa bona. Ka baka leo ga se rona fano re ka nnang le kemokgatlhanong le seo ditumalano di tshwaraganeng le sona. ANC e ema nokeng tekanyetsokabo e go menagane. (Translation of Setswana paragraph follows.)

[Rev P MOATSHE: Chairperson, the ANC supports this budget. Although the ANC supports it, this is not the only issue about which there are negotiations between the ruling party and the public transport sector concerning the recapitalisation process in the taxi industry. However, this will only be successful if the two bodies could reach consensus. For this reason it is not for us to oppose what the negotiations are all about. The ANC supports this Budget Vote wholeheartedly.

Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

Vote No 34 - Water Affairs and Forestry – put. Vote agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

Question put: That the Schedule be agreed to.

Schedule agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

CONSIDERATION OF APPROPRIATION BILL AND OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE OF FINANCE THEREON

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Thank you very much, Chairperson, hon Members. I have observed how the acceptance of the Second Reading debate and Appropriation Bill has gone. I think it is necessary to ask members of this House to look into themselves and ask what the most appropriate way of engaging in this debate is. Sure, this is ritual; but if the appropriation of resources in this country is left to ritual then I think we have failed democracy fundamentally.

Of course, the one route is that we can just carry on like we have done today and divide the House, and the other is a more constructive engagement that I truly would plead for. The fact of the matter is that as we stand here now, some 62 days into the new fiscal year, the key question before the members of this distinguished House is how the money is going to be spent.

And then again, there are two routes you can take. The one route is to wait until the Auditor-General has reported on the spending for the current year and that report would probably be available maybe in the beginning of 2007. By then nothing would have happened in the lives of people, and members of this distinguished House can be satisfied that they have waited until the Auditor-General’s report has come.

The other route is, of course, to be more engaging on the issues. I have heard what members have said about the adequacy of finances, I heard the hon member from the IFP speak on a number of Votes. You see, money helps; it doesn’t cure problems. Problems are cured by oversight. Part of what we have in South Africa is an arrangement where members of Parliament have more information available than in almost any other country in the world.

On a monthly basis we publish, in terms of section 32 of the PFMA, actual expenditures. With great respect, hon Chairperson, I don’t know that this House, actually . . . the hon Ralane is where? Oh. I don’t know that this House takes due care and attention about actual expenditures; not waiting until the fiscal year has passed. We have allocated resources, we have reported. This is the NCOP, I think I should ask all of those members who objected here, all of those members who have made declarations, all of the members who voted, all of the members who have acted in the way that they did because they have exercised their democratic right here today, what enquiries they have taken on the reports that we have placed before this House on underspending on infrastructure in the provinces?

It is not for the press, it is for this House. It is for the NCOP that ignores, time and again, the information that they have at their disposal. My pleading is for more direct engagement with the Budget. We all have constituencies, wherever they may be. The hon member from the DA can talk about the shape of school buildings, wherever the schools aren’t being built - where you are, sir, look in the mirror and say: I have a problem.

Because you are a member of Parliament, you have an oversight responsibility. Your oversight responsibility is the same as that of members of the ANC. We favour this House, from time to time, with a lot of detailed information. I am going to come here time and again. I am going to get up and complain about the fact that the information that is generated is not to keep public servants busy, but so that this House can exercise its oversight function. It is not being used by this House.

I will do it time and again. I will face their wrath and members will say bad things about me. If I can’t do it the Deputy Minister will do it. But we will come here time and again and say, my comrades, my friends, my colleagues, where are you? That is your responsibility. That is your oversight responsibility. That is the relationship that we must have between you as members of the legislature, and ourselves as members of the executive.

One of these days we will come to this House with an intergovernmental fiscal review. That IGFR which we’ve brought here, every year since 1997, will speak to this House again, not just to fill the nights when people can’t fall asleep, but to ask members to have the information, to use the information, to exercise their rights so that we can see that democracy functions.

When we come, please don’t treat it as a surprise. Please don’t treat us as though you would like us to be out of the House as soon as possible because we stand between you and the other things that you might do. Please, treat that intergovernmental fiscal review with the seriousness that it deserves. I think that our people deserve the best democracy, and we plead with members of this House to exercise it.

This passage of the Appropriation Bill Second Reading debate here this afternoon is an important part of that, but it is all of the other details that happen between now and the next Budget, which will serve, probably, on 24 February in the National Assembly 2006. It is what happens in the interregnum that determines the quality of democracy that our people have. Thank you very much, Chair. [Applause.]

Mr M C GOEIEMAN: Chairperson, it’s so difficult to speak after the Minister. The select committee has noted the following: That the present South African government under the guidance of the ANC delivered its 12th Budget on the 23 February 2005.

The economy grew by 3,7% in 2004 and it is set to grow by 4,3% in 2005. The 2005 Budget takes us up on another rung of the ladder of the social and economic progress. Additional expenditure on social services, such as the child support grant, education, land restitution, health and housing is unprecedented.

The early announcement of transfers by the National Treasury to local government and municipalities is a fine demonstration of our continual involvement in intergovernmental fiscal relations. Housing is an environment that supports social cohesion and access to transport linkages and other basic services. We need to reduce the level of crime, particularly violent crime, so that communities can feel secure and confident to go to school or work.

The 2005 Budget is noted for its redistributive character because it channels more resources to the poor through rising social grants, and higher spending on municipal and social services and community infrastructure such as water and sanitation, school, clinics, multipurpose centres, police stations and roads.

In order to provide the Freedom Charter with tangible legitimacy, members of this House must be serious in exercising its oversight responsibilities. The Select Committee on Finance will inspect the following intensely: the monthly reports of actual revenue and expenditure with regard to the national revenue, quarterly reports of provincial treasury, annual reports and strategic plans of national and provincial departments, reports of the Auditor-General and midyear budgetary assessment reports of municipalities.

Moreover, an oversight responsibility calls for an examination of performance against measurable objectives. Reports submitted by the departments and municipalities must not leave information to the imagination of the reader. Reports should provide details such as project name, location, and type of structure, number of units, project duration, completion date and project cost. The monitoring processes adopted by the departments and municipalities will also be questioned.

The select committee therefore congratulates the National Treasury of South Africa, once again, for fulfilling with distinction, not only its constitutional responsibility, but also its mandate. The select committee therefore recommends that this House endorse the 2005 Appropriation Budget Vote. I thank you, Chairperson.

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Thank you very much, Chairperson and hon members. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Question put: That the report be agreed to.

Declarations of Vote:

Ms D ROBINSON: Hon Chair, hon Mr Manuel, and members, one of the greatest challenges facing South Africa today is its high rate of unemployment. Ten years into our democracy, more than eight million people - more than 40% of the workforce - are looking for work, or, having failed, have given up trying. Now many of them have take to the streets in protest.

Because of this national crisis the DA indicated its support for the Budget in the Appropriation Bill because it appeared to be redistributive and expansionary. We welcomed the personal and corporate tax cuts, which should lead to further increases in consumer spending.

The stronger infrastructure of spending R6 billion at national, provincial and municipal levels added to the expansionary thrust. This is without deviating too much from the accepted deficit level of 3% of GDP. This deficit, however, was calculated prior to the additional revenue windfall of R10 million, produced two weeks after the Budget, which reduced the real deficit to about 1,6%.

Given this lower deficit level, it has become clear that the Budget should have included bolder tax reforms, particularly in respect of an effective tax rate on companies. Instead of having ad hoc adjustments to the corporate tax rate, government should set a target corporate tax rate of say 25% and a time period over which it should be implemented. This would have an immediate and powerful effect on investment and therefore the creation of jobs.

We also repeat our call for further incentives for large-scale job creation at the lower end of the skills chain. Noting that provinces and municipalities spent only 46% of their capital budget last year, we urge the state to increase their capacity for infrastructural expenditure. Private sector capital should be mobilised to help persuade the market that the state is serious about harnessing the efficiency and service delivery credentials of private enterprise.

This is entirely in keeping with the possible new paradigm shift presented in the ANC’s recent discussion document, “Development and Underdevelopment”. This is a pragmatic document, which places DA economic policies at the heart of South Africa’s political economic discourse and proposes interventions, which would set the preconditions for market-led growth.

The implementation of these policies will fuel economic growth and will help to create employment. This also proves the value of having a strong opposition, which has provided constructive alternatives. Thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]

Mr K SINCLAIR: What we have experienced in the recent past when discussing this Bill was not just about appropriation, money or figures; it was about hope, aspirations, dreams, and about delivering on the mandate.

During this debate one important aspect came to the fore: Where does a political party stand on the principles of the Freedom Charter, and what is reflected therein? A very unfortunate incident happened recently when a senior leader of the DA apparently said, and I quote “The Freedom Charter is a party-political pamphlet”. That remark is a politically naive, politically disgusting and it is bizarre to think that any senior politician in South Africa doesn’t understand the dynamics of the politics in this country. He should know that it is the will of the people that we are conceptualising in the first place, but secondly, that its implementation is only taking place 50 years after the document was accepted.

So, what we are experiencing is either you are for the Freedom Charter principles, or you are against it. The NNP, because we support the principles of the Freedom Charter - but also with the principles of the Constitution - supports the Bill. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr T RALANE: The freedom of an economy, which meets the needs of the people in an equitable manner, goes back to the Freedom Charter of

1. This vision we articulated in the Reconstruction and Development Programme of 1994 and it is also embodied in our Constitution. These documents must be viewed as the continuation of the Freedom Charter albeit within a more detailed context. The Freedom Charter did not end with its adoption in 1955. In fact, it is the beacon for further struggles and serves as a standard by which to judge our performance.

The redistributive character of the 2005 national Budget and its spending on social services, which benefit the poorest segment of our population, gives legitimacy to the claims of the Freedom Charter. The ANC calls on the NCOP to endorse and support the 2005 Appropriation Bill. I thank you. [Applause.]

Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

                      SPECIAL COMMITTEE MEETING


                           (Announcement)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Thank you very much. I think members are very much aware, as indicated on the programme, that we will have the committee of the whole House immediately after the plenary and this will not take long either. It will just be for a record period of time, like we did with the Appropriation Bill. The Chairperson of Committees will handle it, together with her deputy. So members are requested to remain within the Chamber so that we can conclude the other business of the House. Thank you.

The Council adjourned at 15:12. ____

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. Bills passed by Houses – to be submitted to President for assent

   (1) Bill passed by National Council of Provinces on 2 June 2005:

   (i) Appropriation Bill [B 7 – 2005] (National Assembly – sec 77)

2. Classification of Bills by Joint Tagging Mechanism

 (1)    The Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) on 1 June 2005 in terms of
     Joint Rule 160(3), classified the following Bill as section 75
     Bill:

     (i)     Armaments Corporation of South Africa, Limited Amendment
          Bill [B 14 – 2005] (National Assembly – sec 75)

1. Translations of Bills submitted

 (1)    The Minister of Sport and Recreation

     (i)     Wetsontwerp op die Herroeping van die Wet op die Suid-
          Afrikaanse Sportkommissie [W 13 – 2005] (National Assembly –
          sec 75)

     This is the official translation into Afrikaans of the South
     African Sports Commission Act Repeal Bill [B 13 – 2005] (National
     Assembly – sec 75).

National Council of Provinces

1. Messages from National Assembly to National Council of Provinces in respect of Bills passed by Assembly and transmitted to Council

   (1) Bills passed by National Assembly on 2 June 2005 and transmitted for concurrence:

   (i) Co-operatives Bill [B 4B – 2005] (National Assembly – sec 75)

   The Bill has been referred to the Select Committee on Economic and Foreign Affairs of the National Council of Provinces.

   (ii) Re-determination of the Boundaries of Cross-Boundary Municipalities Bill [B 12 – 2005] (National Assembly – sec 75)

   The Bill has been referred to the Select Committee on Local Government and Administration of the National Council of Provinces.

   (iii) South African Sports Commission Act Repeal Bill [B 13B – 2005] (National Assembly – sec 75)

   The Bill has been referred to the Select Committee on Education and Recreation of the National Council of Provinces.

   (iv) Minerals and Energy Laws Amendment Bill [B 1 – 2005] (National Assembly – sec 75)

   The Bill has been referred to the Select Committee on Economic and Foreign Affairs of the National Council of Provinces.

   (v) Sectional Titles Amendment Bill [B 10B – 2005] (National Assembly – sec 75)

   The Bill has been referred to the Select Committee on Land and Environmental Affairs of the National Council of Provinces.