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National Council of Provinces - 14 June 2005

TUESDAY, 14 JUNE 2005 __

          PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES

                                ____

The Council met at 14:30.

The Deputy Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.

                             NO MOTIONS

                           (Announcement)

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P Hollander): I would like to welcome all our national Ministers, special delegates and permanent delegates to this sitting here this afternoon. I have been informed that the Whippery has agreed that there will be no notices of motion and no motions without notice today.

              CREATE YOUTH EMPLOYMENT AND FIGHT POVERTY

                      (Subject for Discussion) The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Hon Deputy Chairperson, Minister Stofile, hon members, in a mere two days’ time the people of South Africa will pay tribute to the youth of Soweto which, on that cold Wednesday of 16 June 1976, squared up against the frenzied and trigger-happy lunatics of the apartheid regime’s forces of repression. As well as looking back, not merely to resuscitate the wounds in order to fill our hearts with the hate of yesteryears, we will ponder the path that lies ahead of our nation.

This Parliament, the tribune of our people, is therefore correct to hold this debate to honour the youth and their time-honoured contribution to the struggle for freedom, and yet sharply to focus its attention on the urgent and difficult battles of the youth of today.

The youth that swelled the streets of Soweto on that fateful Wednesday did so neither out of hate for white South Africans, nor disdain for Afrikaans as a language. Accordingly, through what they did, they restored the common dignity and humanity of black people and thereby of white people too, for the freedom we sought was for every single South African, and it put South Africa firmly on the path of unity in diversity on which all were included as equals in deciding the common destiny of our country, enjoying equal rights, including the right to vote.

To honour this day is thus to pay tribute to the vision, the courage and the resilience of the youth who gave their lives for our liberty. In imposing Afrikaans as a language of instruction in schools, it was the apartheid regime and not the youth that attacked Afrikaans and created a dangerous and unfortunate anti-Afrikaans sentiment among the black youth. Perforce, the backlash that this would create would not be directed against the regime alone, but against Afrikaans itself, a language that is as indigenous as isiZulu, Sepedi or Xitsonga.

The truth is that none in our country has caused Afrikaans, as a language, greater harm than those that have sought to use it as an instrument of oppression and exclusion, that continue even today to proceed along the same divisive and short-sighted path. Despite all of this, Afrikaans has remained a vibrant and resilient language spoken by black people and white people alike, as proudly South African and African as it always has been, facing no threat of attack from any quarter, not least from the black South Africans who have accepted it as their very language and part of their own heritage.

Guided by this profound understanding of the uniqueness of the South African nation, this government has not tried to prescribe which language needs to be spoken by all our people, but has rather sought to address the vital challenge of navigating between the vested interests and privileges of the hitherto dominant and the aspirations for justice of the hitherto oppressed.

Those that are white and speak Afrikaans must acknowledge that there are others that are black and speak Afrikaans as well, and there are others that are black and speak other indigenous languages that also believe that their children, like those that speak English and Afrikaans, deserve their right to learn in their indigenous languages.

Most white South Africans have correctly lived in Africa for centuries and shall continue for centuries more, but still they cannot speak or write a single indigenous language other than Afrikaans, whereas they are quite comfortable learning foreign languages. On this occasion, therefore, we must reaffirm the vision enshrined in the Freedom Charter that South Africa belongs to all who live in it, black and white.

The 50th anniversary of the Freedom Charter raises, for young people in South Africa, the critically important question of the relationship between the past, the present and the future. For, indeed, in celebrating the 50 years of this historical document, the youth recognise the relevance of the Freedom Charter to changing their present reality, addressing as it does all the relevant and urgent questions of the day. But they ask the question: What does the Freedom Charter hold for our future?

To answer this question is vital, given the fact that it bears directly on the understanding by the youth of their role in present and future struggles of what they and the rest of our people are fighting for, and this also has a direct bearing on the moulding of the type of revolutionary cadre corps of our nation and her struggles.

Everyone in South Africa acknowledges the historic role that the youth played during the struggle against apartheid, inspired by the unyielding vision of the Freedom Charter. In his biography, Let My People Go, Chief Albert Luthuli said: “If the Charter is examined it will be seen that freedom means the opening up of the opportunity to all South Africans to live full and abundant lives in terms of country, community and individual.”

At its 22nd national congress in 2004, and guided by this perspective, the ANC Youth League directed the youth to “seize the opportunities of democracy to confront the future”, which summons their initiative, creativity and genius, guided by the knowledge and conviction that they are the masters of their own destiny and activists for progressive change.

Earlier today in the Youth Parliament, Mr Dinga from the Western Cape said, “We are free and have a lot of possibilities ahead of us.” Mr Chabane from the Free State urged the youth to have a vision for the future, saying that “No goal is reached without a vision and a try; we must be responsible.” And, Ms Dreyer from the Northern Cape, when referring to entrepreneurship, said that it “involves a vision and dedication”.

Ms Ncumisa Loliwe from the Western Cape said:

Education for liberation refers to the ability to educate and arm the new generation with the necessary skills and knowledge that will yield intellectuals and experts in technology, science and economy, in order to liberate our country economically . . .

Education for liberation means breaking poverty’s chains, ignorance and isolation by encouraging creativity, which, in turn, increases productivity, encouraging participation in all economic activities, reducing the brain drain, as well as meeting the challenges of the 21st century.

Quite obviously, in expressing their views the very intelligent youth address themselves to all the major questions this House ought to address itself. These include the pleas made by Ms Manyakanyaka and Ms Peterson that both entrepreneurship and financial management be made compulsory subjects in schools.

This imposes an obligation on the people of South Africa, on the government and the private sector themselves to invest consciously in the youth, to raise their capacity and all-round competence to occupy the frontline of the struggle against poverty and underdevelopment, the struggle for sustainable development.

This requires that we all hear and heed the very militant demands of the youth for jobs, skills and entrepreneurship opportunities, for the speedy implementation of the Growth and Development Summit resolutions that pertain directly to the youth.

This requires that we all hear and heed the very unequivocal and united demands of the young people who participated in the Youth Parliament, who called on government and the private sector to invest in the youth and help them become entrepreneurs in order to increase their participation in the national programmes for economic growth, development and poverty eradication.

Today the greatest yearning of the youth is to address their unemployment, to raise their levels of skills and to have made available to them more resources and support for youth-owned and managed co-operatives and enterprises to emerge and flourish. We must perpetuate the perspective that the youth are vital economic actors and hence must occupy the leading role in the vital national effort to create a better life for all.

Whereas during the first decade of democracy immense political and social gains were created for the youth, they have, however, remained economically marginalised and disadvantaged, without skills and other economic opportunities, hence constituting 73,8% of all unemployed people.

These figures alone would suffice to make a very strong case for broad- based youth economic empowerment in terms of jobs, skills development and self-employment opportunities in order to equip the youth to make a meaningful contribution to the sustainable growth and development of the South African economy.

This was fully acknowledged at both the 51st national conference of the ANC in 2002, as well as the Growth and Development Summit in 2003, which included the youth as a target group of the black economic empowerment programmes within the broader vision of the BEE, indicated by overall equity in income, wealth, increasing levels of black participation and operational participation and control of the economy, and the extent to which there has been transfer and possession of skills and a retention of assets by BEE beneficiaries.

The Growth and Development Summit said in its declaration that youth economic empowerment was among the most urgent national priorities for growth and development, given, amongst other things, that the majority of the unemployed were young, that it was increasingly difficult for young people to find work, partly because there were not enough jobs and partly because the young did not have the skills that were in demand in the labour market. Therefore, currently, too few amongst them were given opportunities to improve their skills in areas that would enhance their employability.

In 2003 the ANC Youth League broadly defined youth economic empowerment as “an integrated and coherent socio-economic process that directly and deliberately integrates the youth into the mainstream South African economy in a manner that creates sustainable livelihoods for the youth through programmes that increase their income, asset and skills opportunities, and increase the numbers of young people that manage, own and control productive enterprises, including the co-operative enterprises”.

Further, we said: “Critical to youth empowerment is job creation, including, through special projects such as the Expanded Public Works Programmes and the National Youth Service Programme, skills development such as learnership and internship programmes and economic empowerment through programmes such as BEE, collective enterprises, enterprise development and others.”

Youth economic empowerment, like broad-based BEE itself, must be broad based, inclusive, associated with good governance and part of the growth and development strategy, and must have a strong bias towards young women, the rural youth, the working class youth and the youth with disabilities. Constituting the strategic focus areas for youth economic empowerment should be the implementation of the Growth and Development Summit agreements, access to capital, business development and support, and procurement opportunities.

In this regard, government and private corporate procurement policies should set targets for youth procurement, employment and skills development through learnership and internship programmes. A conscious effort must be made urgently to build the capacity of the youth, especially at local levels, in order to equip them with the capacity fully to seize the opportunities created by democracy, in particular to access information and capital for their projects and to be able to develop and implement their projects.

The problem is that there are no enforcement instruments, especially through legislation, for youth economic empowerment. Therefore there is no incentive to comply with it, or penalty for neglecting the youth in empowerment programmes.

We must continue to pay close attention to the capacity of the youth in general and of the youth development agencies in particular to continue to act in unity to advance the interests of the youth through lobbying and advocacy. The parliamentary structures to monitor the quality of life and status of the youth must be held to account in terms of the work they are doing themselves to advance the aspirations of young people.

In view of these enormous challenges facing the youth, we must again raise the urgent challenge for the youth of our country to develop the capacity to act in unity and speak with a united voice, especially with regard to youth development. The challenge, as we engage in this debate, is what message we are going to communicate to the millions of our youth who look up to us to help them develop the capacity to seize the opportunities of democracy to answer the question: What does the Freedom Charter hold for our future? Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr D G MKONO: Hon Deputy Chairperson, Ministers, hon members, ladies and gentlemen, during the first decade of our democracy the ANC-led government created many opportunities for our youth. I am sure that you will agree with me that our youth has indeed played an important role in our struggle. Many of those who played that important role bravely did not live to see a free South Africa. Many others were imprisoned because of their efforts.

The fruit of their journey is our democracy, for the youth of our country, together with the workers, the women, the religious leaders in all the various organisations of our people and all our political movements played their part in our national liberation struggle. However, democracy is only the beginning of a new journey that the South African youth and the South African people must take towards a common destiny.

Ngalo mhla ubaluleke kangaka, wokubhiyozela uSuku loLutsha, ndivumeleni ndikhahlele kulutsha ngokukhumbula izigigaba ezenzeka ngo-1976, apho abantwana babantu batshutshisekayo, hayi ngoba babebulele umntu okanye babebe into yomntu, kodwa kuba babefuna amalungelo, befuna ukukhulula eli lizwe laseMzantsi Afrika. Kwenzeka ukuba abanye babo babe bayasishiya. Sinovuyo ke xa sinabo ngokwasemphefumlweni namhlanje, sithetha nabo.

Sikwakhumbula ukuba ookhokho kwakunye nabadala bahleli nathi. Umngeni ke ngowokuba ngaba sisalwa ucalucalulo na okanye sesisilwa indlala, sisilwela intlalontle nokuphila ngendlela efanelekileyo. Ewe, alukapheli lona ucalucalulo, kusafuneka silulwile, kodwa sicinga ukuba ngoku ngesiqinisa ekuthini ulutsha malukhule, lungene emashishinini kwaye luzimisele. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)

[On this very important day, when we are celebrating Youth Day, allow me to salute the youth for remembering the events that took place in 1976, when the children of our people were persecuted, not because they murdered anybody or stole somebody’s property, but because they wanted their rights, they wanted to liberate this country, South Africa. It happened that some of them passed away. We are grateful that we are with them in spirit today, speaking to them.

We also remember that the ancestors and the elders are with us. The challenge therefore is whether we are still fighting discrimination, or whether we are now fighting poverty, fighting for the welfare of all and to live a decent life. Yes, discrimination is not over yet; we still have to fight it, but we think we should now emphasise that the youth must grow, join businesses and be determined.]

In this struggle we should now challenge the youth, in all their formations, to wake up in the morning and begin every single day with more determination than ever before so as to make a mark.

Indeed this challenge facing us is a historic one. It is a challenge that we cannot afford to avoid. The youth of our country must seek to develop themselves in practical, effective and efficient ways so as to work towards a new reality. This can be achieved through youth empowerment programmes, information, and career counselling, the Umsobomvu Fund and the like.

Skills development with regard to the youth continues to be a priority and part of the battle that needs to be fought for the full attainment of our freedom. We must encourage our youth to enter the business sector earlier in their lives. Various youth entrepreneurship programmes of government are aimed at providing business development services and funding support to young entrepreneurs.

We call upon our youth across the country to conscientise themselves about these developments and ensure that they access these programmes for the benefit of their communities.

We call upon our youth to register so that they can participate in the forthcoming elections. Our young people need to understand the importance of local government and the need for their participation in political programmes. Our youth must be conscious participants in community programmes, in caring for the aged, the disabled and, most importantly, those that are suffering from HIV/Aids and other diseases.

Community youth service is also important, because it is through these selfless deeds that our youth attain technical expertise and life skills, while at the same time developing their communities.

Our youth must be among those who offer their services to govern and to perform voluntary work. Clearly this must mean an end to homelessness, poverty, diseases, unemployment, hardship and suffering.

Ngaloo mazwi ndiyabulela, Mhlalingaphambili. [Kwaqhwatywa.] [With those words, I thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]]

Ms D ROBINSON: Hon Chair and hon members, what are the dreams of our youth? What are the challenges they face? What is it that we the elders and the political leaders of our nation are offering our youth?

Today we commemorate the tragic events that took place on 16 June 1976, when many young lives were lost during rioting and shooting in reaction to an evil political system where people were judged as groups, not individuals, where merit did not count and where some young people faced a bleak future. For them the future did not hold any prospects. They had little to lose.

Today, despite the fact that we have achieved political freedom and have made great strides forward, there are still many who face a bleak future owing to HIV/Aids, the scourge of drugs, unemployment, poverty and crime.

As elected leaders of this nation we need to take stock and remedy what is going wrong. We must not be blinded by political ideologies, as the old apartheid regime was.

Unemployment and the resulting demotivation and depression that follow are burning issues. We acknowledge the magnitude of the problem of a lack of jobs. While the economy is growing, perhaps not as quickly as we would have liked, there is no associated growth in jobs. What are the reasons? We need less regulation and more stimulation.

Entrepreneurship is the alternative way of creating jobs. It is vital that the right environment is created. Government needs to focus on what creates jobs, not the rigid labour legislation being counted to meet quotas and targets. As a result many businesses choose to install machines to do the work.

Jobs do not fall from the sky: they are created, not by government, but by industry and business when people see worthwhile places to invest their money. The role of Setas needs to be looked at to see whether they are achieving what was intended. Skills, training and learnerships are not achieving what they should. Far too many people drop out. We need to harness the energy of the youth, capture their imagination and create a will to work.

Essential to entrepreneurship is quality education. Instead of breaking down and attacking what is functioning well, we should concentrate on improving what has been neglected. The frequent policy changes and unbearable administrative load with continuous assessments are some of the reasons that lead to severe demotivation amongst educators. We need more carrot and less stick, more incentives and less regulation.

The status of teachers needs to be enhanced. They need recognition and to be shown respect so that they can be the role models that they were formerly. This will also help with discipline, which is so sadly lacking in our society.

We need to become a reading nation. We need more libraries in every community so that the youth can widen their horizons, their dreams and ambitions. More libraries house business corners where information about starting businesses is available. [Interjections.] I am so glad that you recognise my wisdom.

The DA appeals for a rethink on the imposition of value-added tax on books, especially textbooks. I would like to propose that the money be ring-fenced and allocated to provinces and municipalities for building and equipping more libraries.

I mentioned the scourge of drugs, especially tik, which has taken such a hold here in the Western Cape. Recently released figures reflect an alarming situation. One in five young people are seeking help to overcome the drug problem. How many others are using drugs that are not seeking help? At this rate drugs will soon rival HIV/Aids as the greatest threat, but information and awareness is sadly lacking.

The small budget of R400 000 allocated annually to the central drug authority is woefully inadequate for an effective antidrug campaign. It should not be left to churches and NGOs to take the lead.

The backlog in the judicial system is also a problem, as are the lenient bail conditions for drug lords and dealers. There has been a desperate plea for bail conditions to be reviewed so that these predators do not continue to prowl the neighbourhoods and take as victims our young people who are vulnerable, those whose self-esteem is low. We owe it to our youth to empower and protect them, to build up their self-esteem.

We need to combat gangsterism by supporting families that are in distress, also by providing alternatives through educational and sporting programmes. When we talk about moral regeneration we, as politicians, need to be accountable and we must not be found wanting. Citizens must see that politicians walk the talk and that there are no double standards. Youths are quick to see through hypocrisy.

To quote Madiba at the recent art concert, “We need leadership. We need vision and moral courage. We need to cultivate a society that will encourage all our young people to dream great dreams, to have hope for the future as a united nation, working hand in hand for a prosperous and peaceful future.”

Nkosi sikelela iAfrika. Enkosi. [God bless Africa. Thank you.] [Applause.]

Mr M A MZIZI: Deputy Chairperson, Ministers, Deputy Ministers and colleagues, this topic is one of the most important topics that need no political point-scoring. There is a saying in isiZulu: Inkunzi isematholeni. [The calves are the bulls of tomorrow.]

This topic comes at a time when there will be Youth Day commemorations countrywide to mark June 16. This reminds me of some of the statements that were made by some of the youth at that time.

Kwakungamagama alukhuni. Intsha yasho yangananazi ithi bazali hlalani phansi, ningelekeleli kulo mzabalazo. Indlela esizoyihamba ingumcingo, umango mude, wuhambo olunosizi, lugcwele ukufa. Thina uma sifa ngeke sishiye usizi koba nenkululeko kunalokho. Abanye bethu bazohamba balifulathele leli lengabade baye kwamanye amazwe.

Angiyeke ngokubalisa, ngingageqi amagula sengathi ngiyemuka. Intsha iwuvanzi, igcwele yonke indawo ayisebenzi. Inkatha Freedom Party inombono othi kuningi uhulumeni angakwenza ekwelekeleleni intsha. Kufuneka kube khona izikhungo lapho intsha izoqeqeshwa khona ngezinto ezifana nalezi ezilandelayo: ukukhanda izimoto, ezolimo, nobunjiniyela. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[It was difficult words. The youth said clearly to their parents that they must sit down and must not assist in the struggle. The journey we are about to take is difficult, it is still a long way, it is a journey with much distress, and it is full of death. If we die, we will not leave sorrow, but there will be peace. Some of us will leave this country for other countries.

Let me stop complaining, it is not good to bring up hidden secrets. The youth is scattered, they are all over and they are not working. The Inkatha Freedom Party has an idea that there is a lot the government can do to assist the youth. There must be institutions where the youth can be trained in the following things: car repairs, agriculture and engineering.]

Our curriculum from Grade 7 should gear the learner right into the field of self-employment, not a degree that will make our youth struggle for employment.

Uma senze njalo sobe sibeke induku ebandla. Kulukhuni ukukhuluma ngentsha namhlanje esithi ayinamsebenzi, sithi akuphele indlala. Intsha ifundile iqeqeshiwe ineziqu zonke esingase sithi zikhona kodwa leyo ntsha ayikwazi ukuqashwa, akukho lutho engase ilulethe phambi kwethu. Kulusizi ukubona intsha yethu iwa izigingqi ibulawa yizifo esingeke sikwazi ukuzelapha, ngakho sithi maluju. Uhulumeni ake alekelele njengoba umbono weNkatha uthi ake kube nalezo zikhungo. Siyethemba ukuthi intsha izothi uma isiqeqeshwe lapho ikwazi ukuzenzela kunokuba ilinde ukuthi izoqashwa omunye umuntu.

Angigeqi magula angemuki, sihlalo. [Ihlombe.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[If we do so, we would have broken the record. It is difficult to talk about the youth today, the ones we say are jobless; we say poverty must be eradicated. The youth is educated and trained, they have all the academic qualifications, but they are not employable, there is nothing they can put in front of us. It is saddening to see our youth dying of diseases that we cannot cure, so we are saying enough is enough. The government must assist, as Inkatha’s idea is to have such institutions. We hope that after the youth have been trained, they will be able to be independent, rather than waiting to be employed by other people.

I am not bringing up hidden secrets, Chairperson. [Applause.]]

Mr F ADAMS: Deputy Chairperson, it is time for our youth to model their rights, marvelling at our great leaders of the youth who have walked the liberation road, guided by the fundamental principles of the Freedom Charter, democracy, freedom and franchise in our lifetime. Knowing what they stood for, they should not allow the spears of the great leaders to fall. Let us pick them up and lead the way through difficult times. These reflections are efforts to strengthen our resolve to face our future with a firm foundation.

I would appeal to our young people to acclimatise themselves with regard to our history; not like the hon Thetjeng who said the other day that we must forget our history. Our youth must really acclimatise themselves with regard to our history in order to understand the present and to prepare for the future. Indeed, our first decade of freedom brought immense changes to the lives of the people, and our youth form part thereof.

Constitutional frameworks were established to ensure that issues of the vulnerable sectors of society, including the youth, are mainstreamed. Many programmes were instituted to realise these goals over the years with significant success, although challenges remained.

I appeal to our youth to roll up their sleeves and to join the collective effort to build a better South Africa and a better world. Our environment is dynamic and requires dynamic young leadership, like that of the hon Papi Tau, and people at local level to get involved, while also remaining very competitive in the global sphere. Young people need to take a central role in many government programmes aimed at ensuring a better life for all.

I quote one of our great fathers, former President Nelson Mandela:

Youth are our greatest assets, custodians of our future; therefore, let not the apparent insurmountable challenges facing our society today blindfold your ability to a great future that awaits our society. You not only carry our hopes and our aspirations, but those of Africa and many nations of the world who are looking up to you to help create a new world order.

We cannot fail our youth and have a future on this score. We should reinforce the attitude of mind and practice that see them continuing to hold on to their dignity. The struggle to hold and reverse the effect of unemployment, poverty, HIV/Aids would be a pipe dream if our youth did not build on the liberation spirit that sustained generations and generations, the spirit that our hon Deputy Minister also fought with and which is still in him.

I listened to him over the weekend at a conference. Thank you for that spirit, Minister. Keep it up! There are generations of our people to place us where we are today. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mrs A N D QIKANE: Deputy Chairperson, hon members, unemployment in South Africa is a massive problem. Wherever we go in every province, city, town and village, we are faced with the unemployed multitudes. Wherever we turn we see them, the desperate faces which are translated into statistics of massive unemployment. Those desperate faces are more often than not the faces of our youth. The core statistics tells us that they compromise 60% or more of the unemployed.

Creating youth employment and fighting poverty must include a more active government that invests on a vast scale in education and economic development. Only by equipping the youth with the correct skills and creating a vibrant economy with sufficient opportunities, will we be able to roll back unemployment and poverty. This means that where the economy currently fails to provide opportunities, it is the responsibility of the government to become an entrepreneur and create new job opportunities.

There are various innovative approaches that are open to government,such as identifying new industries that government can establish.

Loo nto ke ingenza abantwana bethu bayeke ukuhlala ezirhoxweni, babe nento yokwenza. Thina bazali masibe nombono omhle ngabantwana bethu, sibakhuthaze ukuba bafunde nomsebenzi wezandla, ukwenzela ukuba bangajongi kurhulumente kuphela, nabo bakwazi ukuzenzela. Enkosi. [Kwaqhwatywa.] (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)

[That could make our children stay in the spaza shops, and they could have something to do. We as parents must have positive ideas for our children. We should encourage them to work with their hands so that they do not just depend on the government. They should be able to work for themselves. Thank you. [Applause.]]

Dr F J VAN HEERDEN: Are you following the speakers’ list, or not? I ask this just for my information.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms P Hollander): I am following the speakers’ list, thank you very much. You may sit down, hon member.

Rev E ADOLPH: Deputy Chairperson, it is indeed our obligation to acknowledge and accept collective responsibility for the creation of jobs for the youth in our country and for fighting vigorously against the evil we call poverty.

Therefore, as the ID we want to declare our solidarity with the many victims of poverty, especially the youth in the rural areas, where people are suffering because they don’t have homes, they don’t have food to eat and they don’t have sanitation or even clean water.

More that 70% of our youth are under the age of thirty-five, so they are government’s first priority, and I hope that the Deputy Minister is listening to me. More than 70% of our population is made up of people under the age of thirty-five. So the youth should be our priority number one.

However, they are faced with a poor and inadequate education system, lack of resources, illiteracy, HIV and Aids, hunger and joblessness, which is a major concern. I think that the only solution is for us to teach our youth the skills of entrepreneurship.

The only thing that we can do in South Africa, as a collective, is to take responsibility for our youth with regard to unemployment, and to teach them not to be job seekers, but to be job providers. That would change the whole scenario of a lack of economic sustainability.

What our youth need to do today is to re-establish a relationship with their families, to get a sense of belonging and, most of all, find credible and potential role models to emulate. That would restore the dignity of the youth, which they have been robbed of owing to this massive unemployment.

Qualified youths with no jobs are roaming the streets. I think we will be failing in our duty, and history will remember us as mass murderers, if we don’t take care of this dilemma. I thank you.

Dr F J VAN HEERDEN: Chairperson, I think hon Mzizi made a very good remark when he said that this is not a debate for political point-scoring. Having listened to the debate so far, I must say that this is one of the most elevating debates that I have taken part in in this House, and I’m very grateful for this.

If we look at South Africa today, at this point in time, there is one great liability and that is poverty. We also have a great asset, and that is the youth. We must cherish, help and encourage the youth to take part in the economy of South Africa and to use its vibrancy. The youth is so much alive, enthusiastic and so eager to achieve, and we, as people in leadership positions, must assist them to achieve something in life.

Rev Adolph said something very important as well, and that is that we must encourage young people to be job creators, rather than job seekers. That is a very important point. And I think that all the parties, despite their political orientation, should encourage people to become entrepreneurs, as the hon Adolph indicated here. Our youth, across the spectrum, has a healthy ambition to move forward and this ambition must be cultivated by creating jobs.

Unemployment is not a problem unique to South Africa only. I was surprised to read in the Financial Times of 1 June that in the past decade in France 20% of unemployment has affected people twenty-five years and younger. This is not a South African problem, but a worldwide problem.

It also goes further to say that a lack of jobs, either side of the Rhine, is politically corrosive. I don’t know . . . luckily, we are not in government. The government is here and it must try to do something. It is a very difficult task. And we realise that and I think that not only us, but everybody should try and support the government in trying to get somewhere, because . . .

. . . baie van ons kinders, en dit is nie net wit kinders nie, is in die buiteland. Hulle moet terugkom. Hulle moet terugkom, en ons moet hul kundigheid gebruik om verdere werkgeleenthede in Suid-Afrika te skep. Die VF Plus wil graag dít hê wat die President gesê het, naamlik Suid- Afrika behoort aan almal, sodat ons kan werk in daardie rigting dat Suid- Afrika inderdaad in woord en daad aan almal kan behoort. Baie dankie. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[. . . many of our children, and that is not only white children, are abroad. They must return. They must return and we must use their expertise to create additional jobs in South Africa.

The FF Plus would like what the President had said to happen, namely that South Africa belongs to all, so that we can work in that direction for South Africa really to belong to everyone in word and deed. Thank you very much. [Applause.]]

Mr M J SIBIYA: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, hon Deputy Minister, comrades, colleagues, ladies and gentlemen, before I start, allow me to make reference to some of the things I heard yesterday on the news on my way back to the park. It was announced on radio that a lot of youths who used to be associated with the DA have come back home to the ANC. [Applause.]

Their leader was interviewed and he said, amongst other things, that he thought that by joining the DA he would have had a chance to contribute towards building a non-racial South Africa. To his alarm, he found that that was not possible in that organisation. According to him - I stress, according to him - the DA is racist and is still in the grips of the outmoded mentality of conservatism. Only two of their leaders, according to him, have remained behind. I hope and believe that they too are coming back home, and that hon Thetjeng will follow suit. [Applause.]

The uprisings of 16 June 1976 in our country marked one of the militant and brave battles waged by our youth in the struggle against apartheid colonialism. It was no mistake that the youth of those days was given the title of “young lions” by the late President Oliver Tambo. I find this a befitting tribute to the heroic youth of our motherland, and I think we need to refer to it as such.

The defeat of the racist regime in 1994 bequeathed the ANC-led government a legacy underpinned by ignorance, disease, poverty and unemployment, to name a few. The slogan “A better life for all” is a call for all South Africans to roll up their sleeves and fight this legacy.

From the very first day in its political office, the ANC-led government has been exploring the use of the Expanded Public Works Programme to alleviate poverty, create jobs and build the necessary infrastructure amongst poor communities. The EPWP is, therefore, a product of such evolution, government policy, government thinking and development.

In May 2004 President Thabo Mbeki committed the government to setting specific targets for a range of programmes to ensure that progress is made to reach the goal of halving poverty and unemployment by 2014.

One of these targets was for the EPWP to create at least a million job opportunities, coupled with training, within five years. The EPWP is a nationwide programme covering all spheres of government and state-owned enterprises. It aims to draw significant numbers of unemployed youth into productive work. As the youth works on projects, they develop relevant skills, which stand them in good stead when they exit the programme.

Many youths start their own businesses or join small and medium enterprises. Where they do not, it is important for the private sector to, in an integrated fashion, join government in finding ways to ensure that they can be absorbed into the labour market.

Having worked in the EPWP, they are, after all, skilled enough to work and be employed. Government is mobilising our people, to use President Thabo Mbeki’s words in his January 8 statement, and I quote: “. . . in their firm support for our vision to unite our country around the people’s contract to create work and alleviate poverty”.

Vanghana, xikan’we ni swirho swa NCOP, hulumende wa tiko, loyi a rhangeriwaka hi ANC, u ni swikunguhato leswi pfunetaka ku lwa ni vusweti etikweni ra hina. Swikunguhato leswi hi leswi: Xo sungula, ku na miholo ya vana lava nga ehansi ka malembe ya 15; mimpimo yo karhi ya mati na gezi, leswi nyikiwaka vanhu lava kumaka mali leyi nga ehansi ka R1 500; ku na tindlu ta mahala leti nyikiwaka lava tirhaka kambe va hola mali yintsongo hi nhweti. Ku thlele ku kunguhatiwa timali ta xibalo ku va ti hungutiwa leswaku lava kumaka mali ya le hansi va nga tikumi va hakela mali yo tala.

Vanghana, ku kunguhata hi ndlela leyi swi pfuna lava hluphekaka ngopfu. Ku lwisa vusweti swi vula leswaku un’wana ni un’wana etikweni ra hina ra Afrika Dzonga a tihluvukise yena n’wini a thlela a tirha hi ndlela leyi hluvukisaka tiko ra hina ra Afrika Dzonga ri thlela ri hluvukisa matiko hinkwawo ya Afrika.

Mfumo wu na timali, leti hi xilungu hi nge Umsombomvu Fund, leti tirhisiwaka ku dyondzisa lavantshwa vutivi bya mabindzu leswaku va ta kota ku sungula mabindzu ya vona, handle ko yimela mfumo ku va nyika mintirho, a va tumbuluxe mintirho hi voxe. (Translation of Xitsonga paragraphs follows.)

[Friends, and members of the NCOP, the government of the country, which is led by the ANC, has programmes which help to alleviate poverty in our country.

The programmes are the following: Firstly, there are children’s grants for children under the age of 15; there is a certain amount of water and electricity which is given to those people who earn less than R1 500 per month; there are free houses which are given to those who earn a meagre monthly salary. There is also a tax reduction for those who earn very little so that they do not pay a lot.

Friends, to have decisions like this will help those who are suffering. Alleviating poverty means that everyone in our country, South Africa, should develop himself or herself and also work in such away that it brings development to our country, which in turn will also help the development of the African continent.

The government has allocated money, which in English is called the Umsobomvu Fund, that is used to help our youth to acquire business skills so that they can start their own businesses, without having to wait for the government to employ them; let they themselves create jobs.]

Comrades, colleagues, ladies and gentlemen, government established the fund to promote job creation and skills development amongst the youth in South Africa between the ages of fifteen and thirty-five. No one should, therefore, hesitate to approach the fund, as one will be assisted to join the entrepreneurs, on whose knowledge and skills this country’s future development depends.

Some of these programmes include the building of houses by young people for the homeless. Some of the houses were handed over as part of the National Youth Service Programme in the North West on 9 June this year.

Comrades, with regard to ensuring consistent development of young people who are caught in the network of poverty, it is important to note the array of platforms that government has put in place to assist them. Amongst these are the following: Firstly, supporting young people with substance abuse problems, victims of sexual abuse or violence with psychological problems and who will require special assistance; secondly, workplace counselling and public health services are available to those battling with poverty- related illnesses such as drug resistance, tuberculosis and HIV/Aids; thirdly, young people who are already at work, either in the formal sector or in self-employment, should be able to access upgraded opportunities.

The government has put employment equity legislation in place that assists those who have previously suffered as a result of discrimination. This ensures that the youth from an impoverished background can develop themselves and fight poverty effectively.

As in the EPWP, the youth should be placed in workplace situations that are strategically linked to a probation period during which life and work skills are sharpened and which would fill the gap between learnerships and actual workplaces.

Before I conclude, let me indicate one thing that is very interesting to me by referring to some of the words expressed by one of the greatest African leaders. There was a conference of all Portuguese colonies in Congo, Brazzaville . . . [Time expired.][Applause.]

DEPUTY MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Somebody tried to agitate me to respond to the ideological statement made by the hon Robinson about the role of the state. She has asked that we shouldn’t talk about ideology today but rather focus on what interventions are needed to deal with the challenges of youth unemployment and lack of economic opportunities.

She did proceed to make ideological statements about issues that I wish not to comment on at the present moment, because I don’t think we have enough time. I think I should rather limit my attention to the issues we are dealing with, save to say that the ANC will continue to regard the state as an important role-player in economic development, growth and poverty alleviation. Our intention is not to alleviate poverty but to eradicate it. That is a drastic paradigm shift if you consider the two.

I want to make the following remarks. The point has been made before that South Africa has two economies. The first economy is the productive modern economy, which is integrated into the global economy and it is the mainstream economy in South Africa. This is where wealth, skills, knowledge and productive capital reside.

The second economy is where poverty resides. To build the South African brand of capitalist economy, various apartheid and colonial governments had sought to transform the black majority into an unskilled, cheap, propertyless and disenfranchised proletariat.

The black youth were born into this and educated to join the ranks of the wretched of our land. Therefore, to break the back of poverty in our country on a sustainable basis, it is crucial that we should focus our interventions among the youth to ensure that we lift their skills, employability opportunities and provide them with opportunities to participate in the economy as activists for progressive economic change for economic liberation.

Earlier on in the opening statement, we quoted the statements that were made earlier today by young people from different schools in the youth parliament, who made, I think, very focused and sharp statements about what we need to do to respond to their challenges. Some of those statements I made reference to are about the role of education in economic liberation, entrepreneurship and financial management, and such other things.

But, many of them also made the point that the Umsobomvu Youth Fund on its own is not sufficient to respond to the urgent needs and overwhelming needs of the youth of our country. They kept making a statement that government has got to do something in order to provide more capital for young people to design, develop and implement their own projects.

The point that they were making was that we have got to look at the National Empowerment Fund, other structures, parastatals and, in particular, the private sector to ask them the question: What are they doing to develop and empower the youth of our country and therefore to challenge them to release the resources that they command for the purpose of fulfilling that objective?

They made the statement that further education and training are important; that there is insufficient access to higher education because higher education fees are exorbitant and many of our people are unable to access it.

The result is that less than 10% of young people who graduate every year with a Grade 12 certificate are therefore unable to find themselves either in higher education or in further education and training, or to get jobs. They fall into the pool of unemployment and therefore are increasing the number of young people who are unemployed in South Africa.

It would seem that the global economy faces this structural problem of how to engage young people in economic activity. As the hon Van Heerden indicated, it is a global phenomenon. It is a problem that faces Europe; it’s a problem that faces Africa.

So, in our response to that, we have got to look at what other countries are doing and what we need to do as a country to respond to these challenges of young people. We have begun to implement some of the programmes - the learnerships and internships - that are intended to resolve these problems.

I have got to say, hon Robinson, that learnerships are not a panacea to the problems of the youth. They will not solve all the problems that our youth are facing. They are not perfect. There are many problems in the learnership programmes. Umsobomvu Youth Fund is not perfect, it’s not a panacea. All these programmes are intended to ensure that, at the least, there are young people whom we give hope to, that we are able to uplift and provide with opportunities. And I am happy to say that hundreds of thousands of youths have begun to benefit from these programmes. When you come across some of them, they say thank you very much for these programmes.

But, of course, we have got to pay attention to those who still have not benefited from these programmes. We must say to them that because we have been able to reach some, it doesn’t mean that we have succeeded in doing all that we need to do.

So, the National Youth Service Programme itself is quite important, and I would like to say that we have got to raise this debate in society as a whole so that it is not a debate that is limited to the Houses of Parliament.

We have to go out to society and to the private sector, in particular, which possesses the largest resources available for development, and say to them they should do something: these are the things that we suggest you do in order to respond to the challenge of youth unemployment.

There are many ideas that people have, and I wish to say that there is a wealth of leadership among the youth of our country. One of the things that South Africa is blessed with is a huge leadership base among its youth, and it is a trait that our country possesses that puts us at a comparative advantage over many other countries in the world. We must use that because we invested in the youth. As the youth parliamentarians suggested earlier, we should invest in the youth of our country today, not tomorrow, because the fact that the youth is the future creates an excuse for us to say that we will invest in them in the future. Unfortunately, when the future comes, the youth will be decapacitated, disgruntled and quite dangerous with regard to the sustainability of our democracy.

We must invest in them today to ensure that when the future comes, they too will play their part at the helm of our country’s efforts to develop to even greater heights. Thank you. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Thank you, hon Deputy Minister. On behalf of the House, we want to thank you for showing high regard by participating in this critical debate, which marks one of the indelible chapters in the history of our country and our nation.

We hope that in future you are also going to display this keen interest in the affairs of Parliament and government in terms of driving the new development agenda. We want to thank you.

Debate concluded.

                CITATION OF CONSTITUTIONAL LAWS BILL

            (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)

Mr A L MOSEKI: Thank you very much, Chairperson. Hon Ministers, members of this august House, as members we will remember that our Constitution was adopted in 1996 by the Constitutional Assembly. It was at the same time given a number like any other Act of Parliament.

It was referred to as the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, Act 108 of 1996. This was done to adhere to standard practice whereby all laws passed by Parliament are referred to as Acts, with specific numbering attached to them.

However, this House will recall further that the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, which is the supreme law of the country, was passed by Parliament. As we said earlier, it was passed by the Constitutional Assembly, precisely because it was drafted and adopted as such.

The issue or need for allocating a number did not arise, although such allocation of numbers was done. It was, on a number of occasions, pointed out not only by the constitutional experts but also by the Chief Justice and members of the judiciary, that this numbering of the Constitution was an anomaly, or it was an oversight.

Accordingly, and in line with international standards, the Constitution has had to be different from any other Act of Parliament and similarly any other law that has been passed affecting amendment or making reference to the supreme law that has a citation deemed to have been changed with deletion of the Act.

Simply put, it is not in order for the Constitution to begin as an Act or to be numbered. It is therefore necessary for an amendment to be made to correct this, and therefore I am actually referring to the numbering of the Constitution. It is not supposed to be numbered like other Acts of Parliament.

This Bill therefore seeks to rectify those anomalies. Therefore we put this Bill before this august House for adoption. Thank you very much. [Applause.] Debate concluded.

Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

           SOUTH AFRICAN SPORTS COMMISSION ACT REPEAL BILL

            (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: My understanding is that where the Rules are not clear in dealing with certain things, it is within the discretion of the presiding officer to take certain decisions. In terms of the speaker’s list before me here this afternoon, I have got only one speaker who is going to make a statement on behalf of the committee.

I also want to acknowledge the presence of the Minister of Sport and Recreation, hon Stofile, who is here in our midst today. And I would also like to say that if the Minister wants to make statements or say a few words on this he is allowed to do so.

Could I get and indication from the Minister?

The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: I will follow the indication from the Chair. If the House wishes me to make a statement the Chair will indicate.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: I was thinking that if you so wish, since you are not on the speaker’s list. I was using my discretion. I therefore call hon Mazibuko.

Ms F MAZIBUKO: Thank you, Chairperson. Members say I must talk about condoms. Hon Chair, hon members of Parliament . . . Chairperson, could I get your protection; because it is Youth Day, you know, apparently there is something that was left out.

With the advent of democracy in 1994, sport in South Africa was identified as an integral part of the social and political transformation of the country, particularly in fostering racial, social and political integration.

Indeed sport in this country has grown to be an integral part of social and community skills education and development of the people of South Africa. Sporting activities and events throughout the country have grown to major economic contributors to small businesses and local communities.

That is why as the government, elected by the majority of the people of this country, we have committed ourselves to continually seeking ways of ensuring the improvement of our administration and management of sport in this country.

Therefore, the Select Committee on Education and Recreation, having considered the subject of the South African Sports Commission Act Repeal Bill, Act B13B of 2005, which was referred to it and classified by the joint tagging mechanism as a section 75 Bill, agrees to Bill B13B - 2005.

The committee is of the view that the proposed South African Sports Commission Act Repeal Bill will seek to merge the Sports Commission with the Department of Sports and Recreation, which is a positive step towards the administration and management of sports in this country.

We believe that this measure will go a long way towards addressing the insufficiency and fragmentation of the institution of sport in this country, which was caused by the legacy of the long years of apartheid. The select committee of sports and recreation agrees to this Bill. Thank you. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Bill agreed to in accordance with section 75 of the Constitution.

                   SECTIONAL TITLES AMENDMENT BILL

            (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon Members, this Bill has to do with Land Affairs and Agriculture, and I recognise the presence of the hon Deputy Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs. Hon Prof Du Toit, would you like to make some comments?

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR AGRICULTURE AND LAND AFFAIRS: Chair, I will not make comments. I am just showing my support for the NCOP. [Applause.]

Rev P MOATSHE: Chairperson, hon Ministers present, the Deputy Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs, we appreciate your support. Hon members and colleagues, I place before this House the Sectional Titles Amendment Bill today, 14 June 2005. The Sectional Titles Amendment Bill I am presenting before the House today was unanimously adopted by members of the select committee without any reservation.

We all realised the necessity of the Bill to close the gaps in the Sectional Titles Act of 1986. We had already amended the Act in 2003 to bring it in line with new developments. What we are presenting before this House today is a second amendment to the Act. This in itself implies that there are minor changes in this Bill in order to give effect to the smooth management of sectional title schemes.

The amendments are around technical and legal aspects of creating and dealing with a unit title, and the rights and responsibilities of body corporates governing these units. It is important that where there is multiple ownership of a property, there should be rules and regulations governing the use of property to avoid infighting, to ensure that properties are properly managed and to ensure that owners understand their responsibility towards maintaining the common property of sectional title developments.

The aims of the Bill are to amend the definition of “exclusive use area” in order to prevent any misunderstanding, increase the percentage deviation in the participation quota as a result of the extension of any section in a scheme, provide for extension where a scheme is extended by the addition of a section, provide for registration of an extension where a scheme is extended by definition of a section, extend the types of real rights which may be registered against a portion of common property, include imprisonment in a penalty provision, and to protect members of the body corporate who have paid up their levies from judgment that has been given against the body corporate.

Let me touch briefly on the amendments and explain why they have to be introduced. Firstly, “exclusive use area” refers to a part or parts of common property for the exclusive use by the owner or owners of one or more sections. Through the amendment, the definition was extended to other sections of the Act, instead of referring only to section 27. In this way, the confusion that was created due to different interpretations in the application of the management and application of rules is solved. So this amendment is going to correct the ambiguity and introduce more certainty in the meaning of “exclusive use area”.

Secondly, in terms of the extension of boundaries, the Act says that that should be approved by resolution of its members and should be registered. It further provides that, if the deviation in the participation quota is more than five per cent, the consent to registration of a plan for extension should be by mortgage of each section in the scheme.

The problem with this arrangement is that it is not clear whether the percentage deviation relates to the participation quota of the individual section concerned, or to all participation quotas of the section in the scheme. Also, the small percentage deviation does not justify the time and cost to obtain consent from each of the mortgages for the registration of the sectional plan of extension.

The amendment in clause 2 of the Bill is to clarify the uncertainty pertaining to the participation quota and to save time and cost by increasing the deviation percentage to 10%. We welcome this, as it will reduce the instances where all the mortgages have to investigate the requests and provide decisions for extension.

Clause 5 deals with developers who fail to comply with the requirement to call the first meeting of the body corporate within 60 days after its establishment and furnish its members with a copy of the sectional plan with full financial statement as provided for by section 36 of the Act. According to section 36 of the Act, a developer who fails to comply with this provision is guilty of an offence and liable on conviction to a fine not exceeding R1000.

However, the fine has proved not to be an effective deterrent, as many developers do not comply with the obligation. This Bill proposes the inclusion of imprisonment for a period not exceeding two years as a deterrent, which we have accepted.

Owners of sectional title units share and utilise common areas in the same building and are expected to make financial contributions to the upkeep of the property. Nonpayment of property levies and contributions by some owners of the sectional title units or poor management by the body corporate or managing agent lead to outstanding debts by the body corporate.

Section 47 of the Act empowers the creditor of a body corporate to apply to court both for the members of the body corporate in their personal capacity and as joint judgment debtors in instances where judgment against them remains unsatisfied.

Therefore, we want to place this Bill before this House for adoption. On behalf of the select committee, we want to extend words of warm welcome to hon member Watty Watson who was hospitalised, but who has joined the stream once more. Indeed, we wish him a speedy recovery. I thank you. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Bill agreed to in accordance with the section 75 of the Constitution.

AFRICAN UNION CONVENTION ON THE PREVENTION AND COMBATING OF CORRUPTION

                      (Consideration of Report)

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Thank you, Chairperson, and thank you for the accolades, hon members. Chairperson, as you are aware, South Africa is hailed by many countries on this continent as a leader and a role model. This is the reason why countries on this continent won’t make any move on anything before they haven’t consulted South Africa.

There are those countries that, in our street language, we say are lastig or ba a phapha [troublesome]. There are many examples that one can give to prove this. There is this African Union Convention on Prevention and Combating Corruption. As a norm, countries are waiting to hear what we are saying, as South Africa, about this convention. But there are those countries that have already signed. There are nine of them.

Those are the first countries that we had to follow, unfortunately. The main aim of this convention is to promote and strengthen the development in Africa by each party state of a mechanism requirement to prevent, detect, punish, and eradicate corruption and related offences in the public or private sector.

It, again, makes it possible to co-ordinate and harmonise the policies and legislation between party states for purposes of prevention, detection, punishment and eradication of corruption on the continent. One of the most important things is to establish the necessary conditions to foster transparency and accountability in management or public affairs.

Another principle of this convention is the respect for democratic institutions amongst the populace, participation, and the rule of law and good governance. There is a range of issues covered by the convention. For example, things related to laundering of proceeds of corruption, the fight against corruption and related offences in the public sector, illicit enrichment, access to information, funding of political parties, civil society and media, extradition and many other issues.

This convention, as we are aware, was tabled in this Parliament many months ago. I know that all members in this House have gone through it. Let me therefore stop right here, because I will be preaching the gospel to the converted.

On behalf of the wonderful, dynamic select committee led by the hon Shiceka, let me humbly submit this convention to this House for its adoption to enable our government to rectify it. Hon Members, this convention therefore is tabled before you for adoption. I thank you. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: I shall now put the question. The question is that the report be adopted. As the decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether all delegation heads are present in the Chamber, to cast their provinces’ vote. In accordance with Rule 71, I shall first allow provinces the opportunity to make their declarations of votes, if they so wish.

We shall now proceed to voting on the question. I shall do this in an alphabetical order per province. Delegation heads must please indicate to the Chair whether they vote in favour or against, or abstain from voting. Eastern Cape?

Ms B N DLULANE (Eastern Cape): In favour.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Free State?

Mr C J VAN ROOYEN (Free State): In favour.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Gauteng?

Mr E M SOGONI (Gauteng): Eyethu. (We support.)

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: KwaZulu-Natal?

Mr Z C NTULI (KwaZulu-Natal): KwaZulu-Natal iyavumelana. (KwaZulu-Natal supports.)

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Limpopo?

Ms H F MATLANYANE (Limpopo): Limpopo e a dumela. (Limpopo agrees.)

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Mpumalanga?

Ms F NYANDA (Mpumalanga): Siyaxhasa. (We support.)

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Northern Cape?

Mr M A SULLIMAN (Northern Cape): Northern Cape supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: North West?

Rev P MOATSHE (North West): North West supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Western Cape?

Mr N MACK (Western Cape): In favour.

Report accordingly adopted in accordance with Section 65 of the Constitution.

                MAGISTRATES P P MKALIPI AND P W PHIRI

                     (Consideration of Reports)

Mr D A WORTH: Thank you, Chairperson. Chairperson, hon members, the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs have given due consideration to all the facts presented in terms of section 13(4)(c) of the Magistrates Act of 1993. I want to just elaborate here, Chairperson. Your committee saw documented evidence of maladministration charges and facts which prove beyond doubt that the two magistrates in question were not fit or proper persons to hold the office of magistrate.

Whilst I do not wish to elaborate further on the actual charges against them, your committee, needless to say, decided unanimously that Magistrates P P Mkhalipi and P W Phiri be removed from office, and not be reinstated. I trust that this House will support the decision of your committee. I thank you. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Thank you, hon member. I shall now put the question in respect of the fifth Order. The question is that the report be adopted. As the decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether all delegation heads are present in the Chamber to cast their provinces’ votes. In accordance with Rule 71, I shall allow provinces the opportunity to make their declarations of vote, if they so wish. Is there any province that wants to make a declaration?

We shall now proceed to voting on the question. I shall do this in alphabetical order per province. Delegation heads must please indicate to the Chair whether they vote in favour or against, or abstain from voting. Eastern Cape?

Ms B N DLULANE (Eastern Cape): In favour.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Free State?

Mr C J VAN ROOYEN (Free State): Vrystaat steun. (Free State supports.)

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Gauteng?

Mr E M SOGONI (Gauteng): Siyavuma. (We support.)

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: KwaZulu-Natal?

Mr Z C NTULI (KwaZulu-Natal): KwaZulu-Natal supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Limpopo?

Ms H F MATLANYANE (Limpopo): Limpopo iyaxhasa. (Limpopo supports.)

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Mpumalanga?

Ms F NYANDA (Mpumalanga): Mpumalanga supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Northern Cape?

Mr M A SULLIMAN (Northern Cape): Noord-Kaap steun. (Northern Cape supports.)

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: North West?

Rev P MOATSHE (North West): Noordwes steun. (North West supports.)

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Western Cape?

Mr N MACK (Western Cape): Western Cape supports.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEE: All nine provinces have voted in favour. I therefore declare the report adopted in terms of section 65 of the Constitution. [Applause.]

I shall now proceed to put the question in respect of the sixth Order. The question is that the report be adopted. As a decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether all delegation heads are present in the Chamber to cast their provinces’ votes. I am convinced they are all here.

In accordance with Rule 71, I shall now allow provinces the opportunity to make their declarations of vote, if they so wish. Is there any province that wants to make a declaration of vote?

We shall now proceed to voting on the question. I shall do so in alphabetical order per province. Delegation heads must indicate to the Chair whether they vote in favour or against, or abstain from voting. Eastern Cape?

Ms B N DLULANE (Eastern Cape): Re a e thega. (We support.)

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Free State?

Mr C J VAN ROOYEN (Free State): In favour.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Gauteng?

Mr E M SOGONI (Gauteng): Iyavuma iGauteng. (Gauteng supports.)

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: KwaZulu-Natal?

Mr Z C NTULI (KwaZulu-Natal): KwaZulu-Natal iyaxhasa. (KwaZulu-Natal supports.)

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Limpopo?

Ms H F MATLANYANE (Limpopo): Ke ya rona. (We support.)

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Mpumalanga?

Ms F NYANDA (Mpumalanga): In favour.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Northern Cape?

Mr M A SULLIMAN (Northern Cape): Ke a rona. (We support.)

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: North West?

Rev P MOATSHE (North West): Siyayisekela. (We support.)

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Western Cape?

Mr M MACK (Western Cape): Wes-Kaap steun. (Western Cape supports.)

Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

Debate concluded.

The Council adjourned at 16:00. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

                        FRIDAY, 10 JUNE 2005

ANNOUNCEMENTS: