THURSDAY, 1 JUNE 2006 __

                PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

                                ____

The House met at 14:04.

The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.

                         APPROPRIATION BILL

Debate on Vote No 8 – National Treasury (Intelligence):F

The MINISTER FOR INTELLIGENCE: Madam Speaker, hon members, may I greet everybody in the name of International Children’s Day and may we secure a bright future – a secure future – for them.

During the past year our country was wracked by a severe intelligence crisis. Grave misconduct by rogue elements within the National Intelligence Agency, the NIA, included unauthorised surveillance of citizens; unlawful interception of the communications of members of the public and Parliament; the fabrication of bogus e-mails as part of a political conspiracy; and evasions and lying to the President, the Minister and the Inspector-General for Intelligence.

These actions were a gross abuse of state power and resources. In the words of the inspector-general, Mr Zolile Ngcakani, they posed the risk of undermining constitutionally protected party-political freedoms. The misconduct has unquestionably damaged the credibility of the domestic intelligence agency in the eyes of the public.

My speech today is necessarily devoted to commenting on that crisis and to presenting various initiatives aimed at preventing a recurrence.

Let me begin by summarising the facts. In September 2005 I received a complaint from a prominent businessman, Mr Sakumzi Macozoma. He claimed that he was under surveillance by the NIA. I immediately asked the then Director-General of the NIA, Mr Billy Masetlha, for an explanation. The report I was given was completely unsatisfactory and evasive. I therefore requested the inspector-general to investigate the matter, as provided for in terms of the Intelligence Services Oversight Act.

The inspector-general completed the first phase of his investigation by mid- October. He found that there was no legitimate basis for the surveillance and concluded that the operation was unauthorised and unlawful. He also noted with concern senior management’s attempts to conceal information and mislead both his investigation and the Minister. On the basis of the inspector-general’s report, the NIA officials responsible for the unlawful activities were suspended.

During this phase of the investigation, the inspector-general was informed about a project known as Avani. On the information at hand, he believed that it was necessary to ascertain whether this project was linked to the unlawful surveillance operation. Accordingly, I extended his terms of reference.

The inspector-general completed the final phase of his investigation in March. He found that the then director-general had manipulated an intelligence project utilising concocted e-mails that purported to portray the existence of a political conspiracy.

These e-mails, which the inspector-general proved were false, were used by the former director-general to launch unauthorised and unlawful operations against the supposed authors of the e-mails. These supposed authors included government Ministers, state officials, politicians, journalists and businessmen. The inspector-general’s final report was endorsed by Cabinet.

President Mbeki has dismissed the Director-General of the NIA citing a breach of trust. The inspector-general recommended that there be criminal prosecutions and the Police Commissioner subsequently announced that a criminal investigation was under way.

The Police Commissioner, the Chief of the Defence Force, the Head of the National Intelligence Co-ordinating Committee and the Directors-General of Defence, Justice and the secret service have publicly endorsed the report and condemned Masetlha’s conduct. The inspector-general has presented his report to the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence.

Our perspective on this scandalous abuse of power should be grounded in the founding document of our democracy, the Constitution, which differentiates between our country’s oppressive past and its democratic aspirations.

Nowhere was this more necessary than in relation to the security services. According to one of the members of the Constitutional Assembly, and I quote:

Our starting point was the horrendous role that was played by the
security forces of this country in the past ... Our mandate and
objective was to ensure that our country would never again be subjected
to security services that are above the law and the Constitution.

How shameful that this brave ideal has been violated, and within a mere 10 years of that proclamation. What is expected is crystal clear. In terms of the Constitution, the intelligence services are fully subject to the law and the jurisdiction of the courts. No one may issue an illegal order and members must disobey a manifestly illegal order. The intelligence services are obliged to respect the Bill of Rights, which affirms the democratic values of human dignity, equality and freedom.

In order to ensure legitimate conduct, the Constitution insists that all members of the security services must be taught to act in accordance with the Constitution and the law. It states emphatically that the intelligence services may not further, in a partisan manner, any interest of any of our political parties, and that it may not prejudice a political-party interest that is legitimate in terms of the Constitution.

The intelligence services may have no loyalty to a political party or a faction within a party. Their allegiance is to the Constitution and the law; to the state and the executive authority; and to the citizens of our country. Their mandate is to act in the national interest by contributing to the security and wellbeing of all our people, irrespective of colour, creed or party affiliation.

Because of their power and the inherent risk of abuse, the security services should be subject to extensive controls and oversight by the elected and duly appointed civil authority. The underlying need is captured by the question posed by the Roman scholar Juvenal: Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Who will guard the guards? Who will police the police, and supervise the spies?

Our Constitution answers this question by providing for executive oversight through the President and the Minister for Intelligence. The Minister has political responsibility for the control and direction of the services. The other pillars of oversight are the multiparty Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence and the Inspector-General for Intelligence, whose appointment by the President must be approved by two thirds of the members of this Assembly.

I have highlighted these constitutional provisions in order to make three points in relation to the recent events. The first is to assert the primacy of the Constitution. Regardless of our place in society – whether President, Minister, parliamentarian, intelligence officer or member of the public – we are bound by this law. We are obliged to act according to its rules and within its boundaries.

Second, it is patently clear that the former Director-General of the NIA and some of his colleagues violated the Constitution. The seriousness of the matter is heightened by their seniority as state officials. Third, the executive has acted decisively against the wrongdoers because we are obliged to protect and defend the Constitution. We have demonstrated our determination to uphold the rule of law.

It is consequently misguided to compare what transpired in our country with the Watergate scandal in the United States of America. As one analyst has put it:

Richard Nixon sought to hide the illegal conduct of his officials, while
the South African government has flushed it out and stamped on it.

[Applause.]

Similarly, it is nonsense to claim that our laws provide a blank cheque to spy on anyone for any reason. In the current case, the rules were flouted precisely because the perpetrators could not have pursued their dirty tricks within the parameters of the law. And I have shown how the various oversight mechanisms provided for in law were used to identify and stop that conspiracy.

Most strangely, some critics have suggested that those of us who took action against the rogue elements in the NIA are the real conspirators and that we were pursuing our own partisan agenda. This is an Alice in Wonderland subversion of the truth.

The facts of the matter are not in doubt. On the one hand, there was a small group of intelligence officers who transgressed the Constitution. On the other hand, there is a large group, including the President, the Cabinet, the inspector-general and the heads of the security services, that was opposed to the transgressions and acted accordingly.

This does not make them partisan or part of a conspiracy. Turning a blind eye to malfeasance by intelligence officers would have taken us down the slippery slope to perdition. Let me make this absolutely clear.

It is one thing for members of political parties to manoeuvre against each other as they jockey for power within their party, whether in a democratic fashion or otherwise. It may not be pretty, but it generally occurs in political parties throughout the world. It is quite another thing for state officials to participate in such intrigues. This is an abuse of office, of power and public trust. It is subversive and unconstitutional. It is akin to muttering with Shakespeare’s Richard III, “plots have I laid and schemes to set my brother and the king in deadly hate”. Our government will not tolerate such intrigue.

I now turn to the broader question of transformation. It is imperative that we use this lamentable episode to undertake fundamental reforms that go beyond simply dealing with a few rotten apples to improving the overall quality of the barrel and making it as rot-proof – or rat-proof, if you like - as possible.

Our aim must be to ensure that intelligence abuses do not occur again. We must strengthen legislation, regulations, operational procedures and control measures, as well as oversight mechanisms wherever necessary.

We must re-examine some of our mandates. We must attend to the perfidious mentality that enabled these dirty tricks to take place. And we must place our reforms in the public domain to rebuild public confidence and trust.

In the wake of the flagrant abuse of intelligence resources I imposed interim ministerial control measures on the authorisation and conduct of surveillance operations and interception of communications. We are working towards finalising improved procedures and measures, which will replace my interim measures. I can report on three key initiatives in this regard.

Firstly, members will recall my announcement last year of the formation of a legislative task team to provide assessment on a range of policy and legal issues. Following the discovery of this skulduggery within NIA, I expanded the team’s brief to review the legislation, internal regulations and operating procedures in order to identify changes that would help to prevent abuses occurring in the future. The task team has completed its work and presented me with an extensive report.

The report contains important recommendations for strengthening oversight and control and for reviewing the so-called political intelligence mandate. I am currently considering the recommendations and will discuss them with key stakeholders before releasing relevant aspects for public comment in consultation with the parliamentary committee for intelligence.

I want to make the following pledges, however. Firstly, we will place the National Communication Centre under tighter rein so that its capacity can only be used in the national interest and not, as was done, to violate even the sanctity of this Parliament by unlawfully intercepting telephonic communications to numbers within this Parliament. Secondly, we will ensure that the newly established Office of Interception Centres is effectively run and controlled. Thirdly, I also wish to add that further control measures will be guided by the findings of an internal inquiry into what was actually an utterly botched surveillance operation on Mr Macozoma, which apart from being unauthorised, was utterly deficient in its command and control aspects and was akin, by the way, to the behaviour of the Keystone cops.

I turn now to a second major initiative that will soon be embarked upon. We intend launching a comprehensive public intelligence review. The intelligence services have not had the benefit of a public review, such as occurred within the military and the police post-1994. More than ten years after the formation of our services, it is necessary to take stock of our experiences. A review of this kind will only be fruitful if there is strong involvement from Parliament and civil society. I believe this can be done without compromising the need for secrecy where merited. In due course I will announce the terms of reference for the review as well as the persons nominated to serve on the review panel. These issues will be discussed with the JSCI, which must be a prominent stakeholder in the process.

As the conduct of certain dishonourable members of the NIA demonstrated, control systems alone do not suffice since there are those who will seek to subvert them. Consequently, we must seek ways to strengthen the commitment of our members to sound moral values and a professional work ethic.

This brings me to our third major initiative. Shortly after the inspector- general presented his findings in October last year, I announced my intention of establishing a civil education programme to make sure that all intelligence personnel respect and adhere to the law and democratic norms. I can report that preparations are under way and I have already participated in a workshop with my top managers to conceptualise the programme. It will be conducted through a series of workshops for which the service heads will be responsible. Aspects of the programme will also be incorporated into the training conducted by the South African National Academy for Intelligence.

We have identified the main themes of the curriculum. They include an understanding of intelligence legislation and the Constitution, particularly the Bill of Rights; the implications of the new approach to security outlined in the Constitution; defining intelligence professionalism in the context of a democratic South Africa; and understanding the role of the oversight bodies. Civil society experts will be invited to help us prepare and deliver this curriculum, which will be unclassified and therefore open to public scrutiny. Such training will be undertaken by the newest recruits and the most senior managers. In the final analysis everything depends on the sound character and wisdom of our intelligence officers.

I turn now to comment on how our recent problems have confirmed the appropriateness of the approach we adopted in 2004. I refer here to our Ten- Point Programme. This approach focuses on building the professional capacity of the intelligence services to enable them to meet the complex challenges of the 21st century in a post-Cold-War world.

We maintained that our ability to deal with the new global situation depends to a large extent on the capacity of our services to forewarn and render useful advice to decision-makers. We therefore prioritised the need to enhance our core business capacity and highlighted the need to realign our budget spending ratios away from the rising remunerations account in favour of operational expenditure and capital investment needs. The core business is summed up in the expression we coined to help focus our effort on the three main pillars of the intelligence cycle, namely the holy trinity of collection, analysis and decision-making.

Technical skills, analytical rigour and proper values are integral to this approach. The importance of building such professionalism was emphasised by President Mbeki when he criticised the quality of the intelligence he receives. He highlighted the dangers of compromising the truthfulness of intelligence and argued that professional officers should uphold the values of integrity, objectivity and credibility. The President stated that a professional intelligence organisation promotes high standards and prizes the development of balanced, quality products.

In working to meet the President’s injunctions, our capacity-building strategy over the past two years has emphasised the need to develop professional officers able to set aside any bias and preconceptions. These officers must protect our services against manipulation, mischief and abuse.

We have held numerous meetings with the staff. This included a keynote address by President Mbeki to all members, which was tantamount to the reading of the riot act. I held a four-day lekgotla with the heads of services to review progress. We also developed a set of Principles of Professional Intelligence Officers, which must become ingrained as second nature. The role of the Academy is central to inculcating the necessary values as well as the tradecraft skills. Much needs to be done to strengthen our Academy and training programmes and I have instructed the service chiefs to provide more dedicated support if we are to get things right.

It is said that every cloud has a silver lining. Recent events have revealed the effectiveness of our oversight mechanisms. In this regard I acknowledge with gratitude the inspector-general whose integrity is beyond question and whose contribution has been exemplary.

I also want to thank the new Director-General of the NIA, Mr Manala Manzini, and his team who have ably steered the ship through troubled waters and are determined to overcome the setbacks. My thanks go to the Director-General of the SA Secret Services, Mr Tim Dennis, and to the National Co-ordinator of NICOC, Mr Barry Gilder, who throughout the difficulties have displayed a high calibre of service and commitment.

Appreciation must be conveyed to the principal, Mr Mphakama Mbete, the new Chairperson of the Intelligence Services Council, Ms Miriam Sekati, the newly appointed NCC manager and directors of Comsec and the OIC. In addition, I salute the head of the Ministry, Ms Sandy Africa and the ministerial staff for their valuable support so graciously rendered.

I must express deep appreciation to all the committed men and women of our services, the vast majority of whom go about their business with dignity and integrity. It is in the nature of intelligence work the world over that mistakes attract public attention while the good work goes unnoticed. I refer to such commendable achievements as the success of our local government elections, countering terrorist and proliferation threats, outstanding work in Africa, particularly with regard to conflict resolution, securing special events at home and even abroad. The last augers well with respect to securing the 2010 Football World Cup. We acknowledge the improved co-ordination between our civilian and defence, crime and finance intelligence structures.

We need to be frank and honest about setbacks. I can confidently declare on behalf of my top team that we are determined to put things right. These are professionals who can handle fair weather and foul. They recognise that the sacred trust vested in them has been damaged. They will rebuild this trust by abiding by an ethos, which reflects the Constitution and conforms to the professionalism that the President has called for and that our people respect. They are determined to prove their mettle and demonstrate they are worth investing in, can provide value for money and at the end of the day show they can make a difference.

As Juvenal’s guardians of the guards, those of us entrusted with oversight must ensure that we diligently exercise our duty. Here I must thank the Chairperson of the JSCI, Dr Cwele, and hon members for their co-operation.

To the greatest extent possible, we should engage in transformation in an open fashion. While secrecy is necessary for aspects of intelligence, it is not essential for everything. As the drafters of our Constitution understood full well, openness is the oxygen of democracy and excessive secrecy will suffocate it. We really need to create a society where when we talk about intelligence it’s not in hushed whispers, looking over our shoulders and with a feeling of suspicion.

I would like to close with the following quotation, which was made at the end of the Second World War by somebody who played a very important role in intelligence during that war:

Intelligence is essential, but if it is being secret, most dangerous. Safeguards to prevent its abuse must be devised, revised and rigidly applied. But as with all enterprises, the character and wisdom of those to whom it is entrusted will be decisive. In the integrity of that guardianship lies the hope of free people to endure and prevail.

I would like to recognise the Premier of the Western Cape, Ebrahim Rasool who is here; and Judge Serite, who ensures that there is control over the interception of our telecommunications. [Applause.] Thank you for your hard work.

Perhaps just a parting shot: My media officer has printed the Principles of our Professionalism and it is being produced as a fridge magnet. I, however, want to assure all members here that this magnet is not a tracking device. But just to play safe, I would recommend that you only keep it on your fridge! [Laughter.] Thank you, Madam Speaker. [Applause.]

Dr S C CWELE: Somlomo, maLungu ahloniphekile ePhalamende, nami ngisukuma egameni lenhlangano kaKhongolose ukusekela lesi sabiwomali soMnyango wezobuNhloli. [Speaker, hon members of Parliament, I also rise on behalf of the African National Congress to support this Budget Vote of the Department of Intelligence.]

I rise to support this Budget Vote fully aware of and in no way to undermine the response to the recent events in the National Intelligence Agency. It might have raised public concerns about the conduct of intelligence in South Africa. The Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence has completed its consideration of the inspector-general’s report into the NIA.

We hope to have a very vibrant debate on these issues, once all the statutory processing requirements have been made for the report to be tabled in this Parliament. As the Minister has indicated, the JSCI, we can say even at this stage, is concerned primarily about some of the very critical allegations of abuses; particularly in relation to the interception of communication, the financial controls and abuse of funds and the lack of co-operation with the oversight structures such as the inspector-general.

In support of this Budget Vote, we must attempt to answer the following fundamental challenges. The first one is, what is the role of the intelligence services in a democratic society like ours? What should be our common national security concerns as South Africans? What must we do to move towards that common national security doctrine as South Africans?

How secret and how open should our intelligence services be? I think the Minister has started to address some of those concerns. We must answer the question, if we say the intelligence services are the guards of our security and prosperity, who should guard the guards? How can we improve our current oversight mechanisms?

I hope that we all agree that intelligence is an essential ingredient in sustaining our constitutional democracy, and ensuring that South Africans can go on with their lives in conditions of peace and stability without fear or want. The Freedom Charter was one of the biggest consultative processes on the aspirations of the South Africans for a democratic state. They made a call that all people shall have the right to be decently housed, and bring up their families in comfort and security.

They called for the provision of basic services, and that no one should go hungry. They called for peace and friendship among all our people and among nations. The role of the intelligence services is to forewarn us against internal and external threats to our democracy in order to reduce our vulnerabilities. It must warn us, among other things, against threats to our constitutional democracy and our integrity; to the maintenance of peace and stability of our political, social, environmental, and economic system; to the maintenance and promotion of our national values and interests and to our human rights, our quality of life and justice for all.

It is against this backdrop that we assess the performance of our intelligence services for the past financial year. As the Minister has said, the recent setbacks of the national intelligence services have put us in conditions we were never exposed to before as a country. But despite that, as the Minister has said, the intelligence officers are supposed to be professionals. These are men and women who are not generally rogue elements. These are men and women who are specially selected according to certain criteria to be in those services. We honestly believe that they will rise to the occasion, and restore the confidence of the community in their actions.

However, despite the recent setbacks, the National Intelligence Agency has worked tirelessly in assessing our peace and stability, our national integrity, and delivery of the basic services to our communities, particularly the poor. Some even complain about what the intelligence services are doing at the local government level. It is their function to assess whether there are any threats to the delivery of these services, particularly to the poor people on the ground.

The successful and peaceful March local government elections can also be attributed to their efforts, as the Minister has said. The South African Secret Service continues to forewarn us about threats to our quest for a peaceful Africa and a peaceful world. South Africa, under the leadership of the President, hon Thabo Mbeki, has made significant strides in consolidating peace, democracy and development of Africa and the poor nations.

The National Co-ordinating Committee remains crucial in harnessing our intelligence activities in order to produce better intelligence products and reduce unnecessary duplications. Various structures such as Sania, Comsec, NCC, ICC, etc, are essential to give support to our intelligence.

We support the call for an intelligence review. However, we must build on the experiences of the past 12 years. We must assess if the current structures and their mandate are still relevant in producing effective intelligence product for the current phase and for the future.

The ANC calls upon all our services to strive for excellence and ensure that the principal clients, in particular, receive high quality products. We have noted with concern, as the JSCI, that our principal client, the President, is not satisfied with the quality of some of the intelligence products.

In addition, we must look at developing effective feedback mechanisms between the clients and our services. In this respect, we hope that our services will rise to the challenge.

The second challenge is to continue to define our common national security concerns. The ANC starts from the premise that there can be no national security without human security or individual security. Human security encompasses freedom from fear and freedom from want. This means that we should find effective mechanisms of engaging all sectors of our society in developing our national security doctrine.

We call upon Nicoc to expedite the process initiated by government in this regard. The JSCI is looking forward to engaging the public on this important subject, once the draft documents or the review documents are produced or made available.

The third challenge is to review and strengthen our oversight mechanisms. We must effectively address that question, who will guard the guards? Intelligence, by its nature, operates in secrecy. The main argument for this is that they cannot disclose their activities to the public without disclosing them to their targets at the same time. Their budgets are generally secret all over the world, their operations are secret and their assessments are secret. Yet democracy advocates openness and accountability.

The question remains, how secret or open should our intelligence services be in South Africa? We have to find a middle ground to ensure effective operations of these services, while ensuring accountability. We live in the real world, and we cannot fully be open unless others take advantage of our democracy. At the same time there can be no total secrecy if we want to prevent intelligence abuse.

We must also know that Intelligence has no advocacy in public, except this Minister and those who are involved in their oversight. In this regard, the JSCI continues to balance this adversarial role in ensuring that the services account for their activities at one end, and with that of the advocacy role on the other, so that we can have the common understanding of what they are doing and the support they deserve from the public.

We are assisted by several other oversight structures in conducting our oversight, such as the Auditor-General’s office, the inspector-general’s office and the judge responsible for issuing interception directions.

The Auditor-General has developed a close working relationship with the committee over the last few years. We have to pay more attention to the capacity of the agencies to spend their budgets - the Auditor-General has raised this on several occasions - and in accordance with their strategic plans. We may have paid particular attention to the capacity of the financial administration of some agencies, particularly the National Intelligence Agency and Sanai. The Office of the Inspector-General has a close working relationship with the committee. They have set up the system for their functioning and reporting. We hope the intelligence department will co-operate with the certification function process of this office, as it is very critical in giving the necessary assurance to the activities of the services.

There are several concerns that have been raised by the judge, and some of my colleagues will expand on this. They range from the term of the office of these judges - of late there seemed to be very short terms for and a high turnover of these judges who are supposed to carry out these important functions - to a lack of administrative support and record keeping.

We hope to discuss this matter with the executive, including the Minister of Justice and the Minister for Intelligence. This is more urgent, particularly in the face of the recent revelations of abuses by the inspector-general.

In conclusion, oversight is not only a challenge to South Africa alone, but it is a worldwide problem, particularly of the intelligence services. As the committee, we are liaising with other structures from the rest of the world. Later this year the Office of the Inspector-General and the JSCI will be hosting an international intelligence oversight conference. We are humbled by the enthusiasm of many countries for this conference, including those who will come for the first time, particularly from the East and Africa. We hope that this conference will also assist us to sharpen our oversight function.

We would like to call for the strengthening and the review of our intelligence structures, as the Minister has indicated. We would like to call for an inclusive process of developing our national security doctrine. We therefore say there can be no development in the absence of peace and stability. The ANC supports this Budget Vote. I thank you. [Applause.] Adv P S SWART: Madam Speaker, during last year’s debate on this Budget Vote I remarked that, and I quote:

An area of concern is the so-called political intelligence. NIA claims this mandate is to ensure political stability, but that can easily be abused. An obvious question is: Would NIA keep Tony Leon and Mangosuthu Buthelezi, or even the PAC, under surveillance?

The Minister of Intelligence gave assurances that under his political leadership such abuses would not happen. Today I must at least applaud him for his openness on what has since taken place. Because we were both very naive at that time, little did we know that my remarks may have been wrongly interpreted by the then Director-General of NIA, the National Intelligence Agency, as asking for a demonstration of such possible abuses I alluded to, and then some more; because that’s exactly what we saw last year, not even the ruling party was spared such abuses.

Today we sit in the aftermath of the biggest intelligence scandal that has faced our youngest democracy, an incident with international repercussions. Whereas I returned from the 2004 International Intelligence Review Agency’s conference in Washington feeling proudly South African, under the illusion that in terms of intelligence oversight we were leaders in the world, I now stand here ashamed. This is because there I reflected on the irony of a conference being held in the USA when their intelligence failures, with particular reference to 9/11, were being dealt with.

This October we will host the next conference in this very city, the same city in which allegedly some of Parliament’s phone calls were unlawfully intercepted by our own intelligence agencies thus abusing, amongst other things, their so-called political intelligence mandate. Stripped of pride and filled with shame, we will have to face the world.

I will not, like the Minister, pre-empt the debate when the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence tables our special report on the investigation by the Inspector-General of Intelligence Services. Then we shall give this matter our full attention. Although I have to say, Minister, you have almost said it all.

There is another matter, however. While touching on the interception of communications, there may be a serious matter, Minister, and I respectfully request that you listen carefully to what I’m about to say now. While the appointment of a designated judge to deal with such applications rests with the Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development, it does impact on your line function. You should, at the very least, ensure the validity of such appointments.

The problem may be this, that such applications and the appointment of a designated judge to deal with them are regulated by the provisions of the Regulation of Interception of Communications and Provision of Communication- related Information Act, Act 70 of 2002, which commenced on 30 September 2005; except for sections 40 and 62(6), which deal with information to be kept regarding cellular phones and sim cards.

In this Act a designated judge is defined as, and I quote:

Any judge of a High Court discharged from active service under section 3(2) of the Judges Remunerations and Conditions of Employment Act, or any retired judge who is designated by the Minister to perform the functions of a designated judge for purposes of this Act.

This Act also repeals the Interception and Monitoring Prohibition Act, Act 127 of 1992, with a proviso in section 62(2) that, and I quote:

Any judge whose designation in terms of the Interception and Monitoring Prohibition Act of 1992 to perform the functions of a judge for purposes of that Act is still in force on the fixed date, that is the date of commencement of this Act, must be regarded as having been so designated in terms of this Act.

Now, the current designated judge was appointed by your colleague from Justice only in January 2006, after the Act had commenced. The current incumbent is still on the Bench; he is an active judge, neither discharged, nor retired.

There may be an acceptable explanation for this, which I would very much like to hear. The point is that in terms of the Act this sitting judge does not qualify to be appointed a designated judge.

I do not only have an administrative concern. If I’m correct, it also brings into question the lawfulness or not of all approvals or applications by that judge since the appointment. We may sit with a lot more unlawful interceptions than just those I have referred to above, but enough on that.

Every year, as custodians of our taxpayers’ money, this House appropriates very large amounts to our various intelligence structures, be it for defence intelligence, crime intelligence or the intelligence structures such as NIA, SASS, the SA Security Service, and others. And unlike other departments, Parliament’s oversight is effectively limited to the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence. Often this debate is the only insight the rest of the House can get on whether we are getting value for our money from our agencies.

The relevance of our own Spygate scandal to today’s debate lies exactly in this, that for at least the past nine months this overshadowed intelligence in this country in such a way that a question mark hangs over the efficiency with which the so-called normal activities, in particular in NIA and its connected agencies, have been executed, if at all.

So let’s go back to the basics. Against this background, I will again revisit the Minister’s 10 priorities to assess if there has been any progress over the past year, since our last debate.

We have, of course, made no progress in bringing the Scorpions within the legislative oversight framework with regard to intelligence gathering. Whilst we await the President’s response to the Khampepe commission’s report and conclusions, a year later they are still gathering intelligence outside of oversight. I won’t even speculate on what might happen there.

Hon Minister, your first priority score card: underspending; lack of financial controls; failure to implement strategic plans; nonadherence to policy frameworks; Auditor-General’s qualifications and matters of emphasis; management letters … Let me rather stop here and just conclude: I cannot honestly say that any visible progress has been made to achieve optimum utilisation of resources. As is the case with the next five priorities, all are broad-based goals. President Mbeki remarked on 24 November 2005, when he addressed the community on intelligence services day, and I quote:

I must say that for many years now I have been concerned about the quality of a significant proportion of the intelligence information I have been provided with.

If the primary client can say this, then we are far from reaching and realising these priorities, including the proper functioning of Nicoc, the National Intelligence Co-ordinating Committee, and the other co-ordinating bodies.

The establishment of a proper, functioning, national early-warning centre was another urgent responsibility, as was the proposed national counterterrorism centre. What progress was made on these, and on Comsec and the OIC? Or did everything come to a standstill when we started with the unlawful interception of communications and, at least, unprocedural surveillance of politicians, amongst others; and when we started conceiving and constructing conspiracies to deal with or cause political instability?

As I continue, Minister, you will see how the current crisis has not only paralysed your priorities, but has almost wiped them from the intelligence radar screen.

Our border integrity is another priority. We desperately need proper border security. The situation over the past year has only grown worse. We again need to remark on unrestricted entry into South Africa.

Some of the problems at our borders were caused by the officials of Mr Masetlha’s previous department, and last year I wished him success in addressing these. But, alas, he is no more, and during his short term as director-general he thought of more urgent things to do. The result is that our borders are more open; illegal immigrants are streaming in and killing, raping and robbing our people. Minister that is a recipe for anarchy and political instability, if you need more problems.

MISS, the Minimum Information Security Standards that all government departments must adhere to, remains a big problem. I still fail to understand the reluctance or inability of departments to comply with these standards. Again, I ask for punitive sanctions to be taken against noncompliers.

You also made the intelligence academy another priority. But we are training cadets from other countries in Africa, whilst we cannot address our own needs. There are serious problems, both in terms of capacity and even financial controls.

Notwithstanding the qualities and dedication of the principal, who I respect very much, I cannot but come to the conclusion that your predecessor’s plans for the academy left you with another well-intended disaster.

The SPEAKER: Order! There’s a point of order.

Mr H P CHAUKE: Will the hon Swart take a question on the issue of illegal immigrants who are coming into the country?

The SPEAKER: Hon Swart, are you willing to take a question?

Adv P S SWART: Madam Speaker, if I can finish before my time has expired, I’ll be more than willing to do so.

Minister, your last priority was our vetting capacity, an insurmountable problem for our proper solutions. Now we need to rethink the whole concept. Your ex-director-general, early in his unfortunate term in office, came up with a revised strategy. He failed, of course, whilst still busy with other matters of national security importance, to make any progress on the fact that apart from some few exceptions, we might as well consider vetting, a foreign and unknown concept in this country.

With no proper border integrity or compliance with MISS, unvetted officials and a lack of well-trained and skilled members in our services, the rest will all come to no avail. Two years into this term we have made no progress on these pressing needs. Things seem to be worsening. What an indictment on us all!

I do, however, want to welcome the Minister’s announcements today. We need action and we need to move forward. But then we now have task teams reviewing legislation, policy procedures and what have you.

We will come up with new strategies, plans and priorities to spend the next two years on whilst that which is of utmost importance, intelligence gathering of unquestionable quality and integrity to ensure national security and pre-empt threats to it, will stay on hold.

The recent events seriously curtailed our ability to function properly. Both national security and democratic transparency have been compromised, and only the future will tell if we have learnt sufficient lessons to put proper safeguards in place to prevent this recurring.

Some consolation is that SASS functions reasonably well despite undercapacity. Crime intelligence still manages to fight organised crime and syndicates, with some very impressive successes. But I have no idea what is going on in military intelligence. I think I will have to study all the management love letters to them from the Auditor-General.

Allow me, lastly, to thank the Minister for his openness and frankness here today. That is something I came to admire him for since he took office: the willingness to be transparent in terms of matters of intelligence. I do know that he’s been through a difficult period in the past year, and he does have my sympathy.

I, however, need to remark on what’s going on and for basics in our community, because it is seriously a case of us having been paralysed over the past nine months by these things. We need to move on. I trust that when we table our special report we will have a proper debate on what took place. We can move forward and at least see how far we can get.

So the best of luck with that, Minister, and to all the senior members of the community. They are dedicated people in our intelligence services. I want to thank their staff and their officers, at all levels, for their efforts to make this country and its people secure and safe from threats, be they criminal or otherwise.

May your work in secret be so transparent that we achieve a properly functioning and democratic South Africa.

Lastly, allow me to thank the members of the committee under the able leadership of the hon Dr Cwele.

It has also been a very trying time for us over the past many months, which also took our attention away from a lot of the basic things. We intend to get back on track urgently, but the good remark I can make about the JSCI is that we do function in a way that is free of party politics, because we all have the security and the safety of this country at heart. [Applause.]

We will continue to try to be as transparent as possible in our oversight. Minister, I will leave after the function and look for the magnifying glass you gave me last year, so I can read these principles of professionalism, on which I must congratulate you. Unfortunately, this is just a little object and we need to take it to heart - in all the agencies and all the people involved - so that we can really adhere to this. Thank you. [Applause.]

Ms H C MGABADELI: Madam Speaker, hon Minister Ronnie Kasrils, hon members, honourable guests from all walks of life, members of the intelligence community, comrades, friends and patriots, we greet you all and you are welcome.

This debate on this Budget Vote of 2006 is dedicated to the following: the children of our universe in general and of our country in particular on this day in celebration of International Children’s Day. Secondly, it is dedicated to the hands that are responsible for their upbringing and their wellness in order for them to be better human beings in the future - we dedicate this debate to them.

Those hands include the hands of the nurses, of the midwives, of the mothers, of the baby-sitters, of the crèche caregivers, of the teachers, and also the hands of the intelligence officers whose roles and responsibilities are to ensure that our children find their land, the Republic of South Africa, and its people secure and safe for themselves and for generations to come. Also included are those who moulded our characters when we were still young. They enabled some of the intelligence officers and civil servants, including some of the MPs present here, to be what they are and to have such distinguishing features and qualities.

These moulders of our characters are the following, among others: the likes of the late Dr Sibusiso Nyembezi from Pietermaritzburg whose books left an indelible mark on the nation while the nation was still growing. Those books are Kunyenyeza Esikhotheni [Whispering in the thick, long grass of all sorts]; Masihambisane [Let us walk together]; Inkinsela YaseMgungundlovu [The tycoon of Pietermatitzburg] and others.

An HON MEMBER: it’s C C Ndebenkulu.

Ms H C MGABADELI: Yes, that character is called C C Ndebenkulu. Thank you, colleague.

Secondly, it is also dedicated to the author of the book called A Man For All Seasons. Unfortunately, this glorious book of mine, together with other books, was taken away during those days of the searching and taking away of books, which was tantamount to stealing. [Laughter.]

It is also dedicated to a particular Mr van der Merwe, not our Mr van der Merwe, but the author of the poem Muskietejag. It is dedicated to the Bible with its parable on the harvesters who planted one thing and found another, and regarding the parable of the ant and the lazy person. Later, ladies and gentlemen, I will tell you why I dedicate it to all these writers and to the Bible.

What are some of the critical factors that these forebears of our moulders instilled in us? Some of these factors and characters are the ability to advise, to foretell, to forewarn, to forecast, to predict, to hypothesise, to prevent rather than to cure, to focus, etc.

Yes, indeed, in their line of duty, as the mission statement and legal mandate of the SA Secret Service says, which I am called upon to look into, they do need these characteristics and these qualities; these critical success factors. What did the likes of the late Dr Sibusiso Nyembezi and all those listed earlier do? Why do I liken this big day of intelligence officers with the children? I will explain. Firstly, it is because moulding is done better when one is eager to learn - Sibusiso Nyembezi saw that – during the early stages of development and early training.

Secondly, a person who learns the most is the one who allows himself or herself to be told, just like the child listening to the bedtime stories - izinganekwane. Dr Nyembezi and others did that. We will give you only a few cases from his books, because there is no time.

Case number one from Kunyenyeza Esikhotheni is a case that is based on this book which was full of survival strategies. Together with the survival strategies, he would give us Masihambisane, which was for language, through short stories.

The first case is “imbizo of the carnivores” to discuss the herbivores. This imbizo in Kunyenyeza Esikhotheni was the imbizo of the carnivores, not all of them, but those with horns. The reason why it wasn’t for all of them was because carnivores are highly untrustworthy; they eat each other sometimes! [Laughter.]

Unogwaja [the hare] heard that it was their day. Because kwakunesomiso [there was a drought] and the carnivores wanted to eat the herbivores. So nogwaja [the hare] told the herbivores, that guys, kuyabheda [things are bad].

Then the herbivores said …

… “Ngoba uzwile besihleba, hamba uyolalela laphayana.” Wathi, “Ngizokwenze njani ngoba anginazimpondo nje?” Bathi kuye, “Hhayi, hamba uthathe inhlaka. Thina sizohamba siyobheka izinyamazane esezafa, sithathe izimpondo zazo sizifake lapha, bese uyosilalelela wena.” (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[…“Because you heard them gossiping about us, just go there and eavesdrop.” The hare then quipped, “What I am going to do, I do not have horns?” And they said to him, “No, man, just go and get some resin. We will then go and look for horns from dead bucks and put them on you, and then you can go and eavesdrop for us.”]

Indeed it happened. I won’t go further, because I don’t have time. But, at the end of the day, wozela unogwaja [the hare fell asleep].

In the middle of the conference …

… zamsinda izimpondo kwase kucaca ukuthi akuzona ezakhe ngempela. Kwathi lapho sezizowa wayibona ingozi, njengoba futhi vele phela wayehlakaniphile. Wezwa sengathi ikhanda lakhe seliwa phansi. Ngesikhathi ezwa lokho sabona esinye isilwane esidla inyama ukuthi sengathi unogwaja nje loya. Wabaleka unogwaja. Wathi uma ebaleka wafica umfula ugcwele. Wabona ukuthi ngeke akwazi ukuwela nakhu unesikhumba esithambile.

Wahlakanipha ngokushesha wabona itshe elihle, kwazise wayebazi labo abamjahayo ukuthi bathandani. Wazishintsha waba yileli tshe elihle wase ema lapho babezodlula khona ababemjaha. Bathi uma sebesesigodini, washizintsha waba yitshe.

Ngenkathi labo ababemjaha sebefika kulelo tshe, bafika balithanda ngoba bethanda izinto ezinhle. Bathi, “Uma ngingakubona okungunogwaja, ngingakushaya kanje.” Bajilikijela ngaphesheya komfula. Washintsha unogwaja ngale komfula wathi, “Ehhe, waze wangiweza phela”. Emva kwalokho wabaleka basale benxapha. Yiziphi izifundo esizifundayo-ke lapha? [Uhleko.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[… the horns became too heavy for him and it became clear that they were not his originally. When the horns were about to fall off, the hare immediately saw the danger looming, for he was very shrewd. He felt like his head was going to collapse. When he realised that his horns were about to fall off, one of the carnivores immediately realised that the animal in question was a hare. The hare then ran away. He then came to the river, which he found to be full. He immediately realised that because of his soft skin he would not be able to cross the river. He thought quickly and saw a beautiful precious stone, and he knew exactly what his chasers would like. He would turn himself into this beautiful stone and wait where his chasers were to pass. When they reached a shallow valley, he turned himself into a precious stone.

When his chasers reached that precious stone, they immediately fell in love with it, for they loved beautiful things. They then said, “If we find this bloody hare, we can throw this stone at it, like this.” They threw the stone across the river. Immediately after being thrown across the river the stone turned into a hare, and he said, “There you are, you’ve made it possible for me to cross.” He then ran away, and they were left standing, uttering clicks of annoyance. What lessons do we therefore get from this?] [Laughter.]]

What are the lessons from this case in Kunyenyeza Esikhotheni? You must know your terrain. You are in esikhotheni [wild thicket] outside the country, watching for us and working for us. Know your terrain. Nature should be your classroom. Have your ears on the ground, otherwise you will be eaten. Blend in with the environment and with your surroundings; look like them. Be vigilant; sleep like unogwaja [the hare], don’t sleep permanently. Use the opportunity at your disposal. Know your enemy: what he or she likes.

Unogwaja wayazi ukuthi laba ababemjaha abacushwa ngezinto ezinhle. [The hare knew that his chasers could not control their love of beautiful things.] Do not give up until you have fulfilled your mandate. Unogwaja [the hare] was sent to go to listen, so he had to take back the report. In the veld out there, dog eats dog, regardless of their all sharing the same terrain. If they were really carnivores, why did they not smell the meat from unogwaja [the hare]? So, obviously, they were not real carnivores. Kukhona nokwakungashayi kahle. [And there was something fishy.]

Be able to distinguish between the real thing and the Fong Kong. Be flexible; be creative.

The second case is of the jackal and the lion in the farmer’s kraal. Again, it was dry and the farmer had a lot of goats, so the jackal and the lion went …

… beyofuna ukudla base bengena ocingweni. Ujakalase wayelokhu edla bese eyozikala ukuthi usakwazi yini ukuphuma embotsheni. Ibhubesi lona lethembe ukuthi liyisikhondlakhondla langaya ukuyozikala. Njengoba ujakalase wayelokhu edla bese ehamba eyozikala, wathi uma efika embotsheni okokugcina wabona ukuthi ngeke esaphuma ngoba wayesenonile, esezidle kakhulu izimbuzi. Ibhubesi lasala kwathi ujakalase wabaleka. Lafika iBhunu labhekana nebhubesi lase lilidubula. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[… looking for food, and they went through an opening in the fence. The jackal would eat a little and then go to the opening to see if he had not eaten too much, lest he should not be able to get out through the opening in case of an emergency. The lion trusted its powers and did not care about checking its stomach against the opening. As the jackal constantly went to the opening, he realised upon going there the last time that he was getting too full after eating a lot of goats. The jackal ran away, and the lion was left behind. When the farmer arrived, he faced the lion and shot it.]

The lessons from this are: Know yourself. Keep checking whether it is still you, or have you added more bargains and the hole is becoming too small. [Laughter.] [Applause.] Do not be greedy. You may get stuck and end up being caught and lose everything.

Then we proceeded to high school. In high school we read Inkinsela YaseMgungundlovu. Having acquired this knowledge from Kunyenyeza Esikhotheni, we found Inkinsela YaseMgungundlovu in which a fraud, a so- called filthy rich somebody went to the rural areas. In our case, I would say he went to a Third World country, and displayed himself as being so big. And, within the SASS legal mandate, we will request that they must be very sharp about this, because C C Ndebenkulu was discovered – I won’t dwell on it, time does not allow it.

However, the lessons learnt are the following. People from rural areas and Third World countries, just like ourselves, need more of SASS and its legal mandate than those from the First World. To be stupidly humble leads one to be the subject of outside tsotsis. Please, we need vigilant guides like Themba Sithole …

… wakulo muzi wakwaSithole lapho kwangenisa khona uNdebenkulu. [… from the house where Ndebenkulu sought refuge.]

A young boy saved the whole community from being stripped of their economic mode of survival by Ndebenkulu. Young people are not always stupid.

The fourth parable is from the Bible and is about the ant and its energy - planning methods without any supervision. Those of you who read the Bible would know this very well. What are the lessons? Hide during the times of danger and be warm somewhere, but do not starve.

The other parable is the one of the gardeners who went to cultivate.

Uma bethi uma bayovuna, bafica kukhona enye into evelile okungeyona abayitshala. Baya kuJesu beyobuza ukuthi yini lena? Wathi kubo abayeke kukhule nokhula kungaze kusiphuke nalokhu esikutshalile. Bayeka kwamila nokhula. Bahamba bayovuna base bekuthola okungesikho okwabo. Bafowethu nodadewethu bakwa-Sass, anokubheka okuwukhula. Ningakusiphuli kusekuncane ngoba kuzonimosha, kodwa nikubheke nje. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[When they went to harvest, they found weeds amongst the wheat. They went to ask Jesus what that was. He told them to leave it, lest they root up the wheat with it. They let the wheat and the weeds grow together. When they went to harvest, what was not wheat was immediately exposed. So my brothers and sisters from the SASS, watch out for the weed. Do not uproot it whilst it is still young; for it may endanger you. Just watch it closely.]

The last story is about Sir Thomas More in A Man For All Seasons. There was King Henry. Those who are from the Anglican Church will know which King Henry – the first, the second, the third, or the fourth. I don’t remember which King Henry because those people, who did the raiding, stole my book. [Laughter.] This King Henry wanted polygamy, and he argued that the church was bigger than the state. Sir Thomas More was saying that it could not be. King Henry wanted everybody to say, “Yes, I’ll take another woman”. Sir Thomas More said … [Interjections.]

… ayenzeki leyo nto [that will not happen]; let’s stick to this thing.

Ngesikhathi esezomhenga esekhathele ukumncenga … [The King was tired of pleading with him, and was about to hang him …] … but he praised him. He said, though I don’t remember this very well: “There are those who follow me just because I wear a crown, there are those who follow me because they follow any object that moves, and there’s you, Sir Thomas More.”

Wamshiya kanjalo wase emlengisa. U-Van der Merwe-ke yini inkinga ayenza? U- Van der Merwe wayengamfundanga uKunyenyeza Esikhotheni, wayengafunde lutho. Wabanga umsindo ebangela umiyane engakasondeli nakuye futhi engakamenzi lutho. Lowo miyane wawutshela ukuthi uzowushaya kanjani, ewubiza ngento ehluphayo. Wambuka nje umiyane wathi ngeke aze awuthole. Wathi esathi uzowushaya, wathi umiyane, “Uhlale ukwenza.” Wasuka wabaleka. [Uhleko.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[He left him like that and hanged him. And then, what wrong did Van der Merwe commit? Van der Merwe did not learn from the book named Kunyenyeza Esikhotheni. He had in fact learnt nothing. He made a lot of noise about the mosquito before it even came close to him. He told the poor mosquito how he was going to beat it up, calling it a useless nuisance. The mosquito simply looked at him and it knew he would never get hold of it. When he was about to beat it up the mosquito simply said, “Not me”, and flew away.] [Laughter.]]

Don’t be loud and don’t be noisy before you do something. Let us, as the ANC, support this budget for the intelligence officers to do the following: to be able to talent-spot well, nurture the talent you spotted, train people in line with what the Constitution of the country and your mission and vision statement are saying. We thank you. [Applause.]

Mnu M J BHENGU: Somlomo, angibonge ukuthi ngithole leli thuba. Angiqale ngibongele umfowethu uManzini, ongene esikhundleni sokuthi abe ngumphathi woMnyango. UManzini uyazazi izinkinga okufanele abhekane nazo.

Angiqale ngokuthi i-IFP iyasemukela lesi sabelo sezimali bese ngisho nokuthi kunzima Ngqongqoshe ukuthi umuntu kulesi sikhathi esikusona njengamanje angakhulumi ngalesi sehlo ubukhuluma ngaso esenzeke kwi- National Intelligence Agency.

Angikusho ukuthi ukukhuluma ngalezi zehlakalo akusiyona neze injabulo kithi naseqenjini lami kodwa kungukuhlupheka ngoba siyazi ukuthi lezi zinto ngesinye isikhathi sibuye sikhohlwe ukuthi zisho impilo nokufa kwethu.

Sikhuluma lokhu ngoba siyazi ukuthi akuyona into elula ukuphatha izwe. Angikusho futhi Ngqongqoshe ukuthi ngijabulile ukuthi kukhona izinto ezintsha othe uzoziveza ezinhle futhi eziyinqubekela phambili esizozibona uma seziqhamuka. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[Mr M J BHENGU: Chairperson, thank you for this opportunity. Let me start by congratulating my brother Manzini, who was appointed as the director of the department. Manzini knows the problems that should be dealt with.

Let me start by saying that the IFP supports the budget, and let me also say that it is difficult, Minister, in the current situation not to comment on the incident which took place in the National Intelligence Agency.

Let me say that talking about these incidents is no joy at all for my party and for us; it is painful because we know that sometimes we forget that these are matters of life and death.

We say this because we know that it is not easy to lead the country. Minister, I must also say I am very happy that you promised new, beautiful things to show which developments we will see as they appear.]

Having said that, I must say that the current crisis in the National Intelligence Agency or NIA, challenges us all to grapple with a host of higher-level policy questions. What has recently happened within NIA, regarding the issue of the much talked about emails, will certainly go down in the annals of our country’s intelligence history.

Just over a decade after the advent of our fledgling democracy, we find ourselves having to engage in a critical debate around the sensitive issues of intelligence. What happened was engrossing and deeply troubling. It was an incident of despair that resulted in an epoch of disillusionment, and the citizens of this country were left confused and feeling insecure.

It was troubling and engrossing in many ways, particularly because it threatened the national security of our country, our national security doctrine which aims, among other things, at promoting a society that is free of violence and instability, and that must engender a sense of respect for the rule of law and human life. This is the philosophy that should guide our intelligence community.

These are matters, as I have said, of life and death, and they challenge us to be frank and be very honest. Where does the problem lie here? Does it lie with the NIA or somewhere else? Whatever the case may be, the fact of the matter is that the officials of the NIA must not ever engage themselves in party politics.

It is unfortunate that the internal conflicts of the ruling party resulted in the NIA and its intelligence structures being affected. The authenticity or falsity of the emails still remains a mystery.

These intelligence upheavals are an indication that we are on a learning curve, so we need to expect such things to happen. We have seen such things happening in countries such as Israel and in the USA. It is the seriousness of these matters that have forced our State President, who is the principal client of NIA, to lament and say:

You cannot allow any compromise about the quality of intelligence and its truthfulness, you can’t afford a situation where people manufacture intelligence and lie in order to please the President.

Clearly, this is a lament that the Minister of Intelligence and the entire intelligence community should heed as a warning and take some drastic steps to correct; because it is a lament that comes from the entire community of South Africa.

The challenge therefore, is: How does the NIA address the question of producing quality intelligence? This is not only demanded by the President, but it is also demanded by every South African citizen. The important lesson we need to learn from all of this is that if the party intervenes in everything, it will not help the people to understand the importance of the rule of law.

This is a question between the party and the government. Political leaders need to remember that our intelligence services are a national asset, mandated to help ensure the security and the wellbeing of all the people.

As the Minister pointed out before, the intelligence services must therefore be politically nonpartisan, and they may not carry out operations that are influenced to undermine, promote or influence any political party, faction or organisation at the expense of another.

Intelligence services are expected to uphold the important values of integrity, objectivity and credibility. In short, they must put aside their personal views in the interests of the country as a whole. In this respect, intelligence should enhance national security and protect and promote the interests of the state and the wellbeing of its citizens.

Perhaps, it is time that we revisit the code of conduct for intelligence workers. I have always found that there is a lot that they can get out of the code of conduct. I am also happy that the Minister is doing something in this regard to correct all that has happened.

Mr Minister, you know very well, perhaps better than any one of us here, that conventionally the intelligence business is generally confined to hushed whispers. I must say that I am one of the people who was actually confused to see that about 50% of the information concerning the issue of emails and the IG’s report, was leaked to the press, even before it was submitted and discussed by the JSCI. I support the Bill. [Time expired.]

Mr L T LANDERS: Chairperson, on this International Day of the Child, we dedicate this debate to all those courageous women, mothers and sisters, who 50 years ago, marched to the Union Buildings in Pretoria. One of the objectives of that historic march was the attainment of freedom for their children. Today we enjoy that freedom and civil liberty.

That hard-won civil liberty for which many of our iconic and courageous leaders like Helen Khuzwayo, O R Tambo, Nelson Mandela and Walter Sisulu, amongst others, were willing and prepared to sacrifice their lives, must be fiercely protected and defended.

Section 14 of our Constitution provides that, and I quote: “Everyone has the right to privacy, which includes the right not to have the privacy of their communications infringed.”

Any attempt, therefore, to infringe on this right, any action which seeks to contravene this right, must be condemned in the strongest possible terms. I make this point not only in the context of the highly controversial e-mails, but also in relation to the unlawful loading of telephone numbers belonging to private citizens and lawful political organisations onto the National Communications Centre’s system. The hon Minister has referred to this extensively and it will form a large part of my address to this House.

The latter part of 2005 saw the National Intelligence Agency, NIA, plummet to its lowest point yet. Abuses committed by some of its most senior members were exposed, which culminated in extensive investigations by the Inspector-General for Intelligence Services. Such events, in which members of the NIA were directly or indirectly involved, have led me to the view – as they have the hon Minister – that South Africa needs a comprehensive review of the underlying principles that underpin our national security doctrine and our intelligence dispensation. And in that regard, hon Minister, we welcome the plans that you’ve put forward in order to address these matters.

And this includes the comprehensive review of the White Paper on Intelligence, as well as the attendant oversight structures and the relevant checks and balances, to ensure that they are still appropriate and adequate. Perhaps at this point it is appropriate in this debate briefly to revisit the essential provisions of the White Paper, in order to put the recent abuses into the proper context.

One of the goals of the above-mentioned White Paper which first saw the light of day in 1995, was the creation of an effective, integrated and responsive intelligence dispensation that serves our Constitution and the government of the day, through the timeous provision of relevant, credible and reliable intelligence. This should be in line with the new, nonracial democratic order in which much weight is given to the rights of the individual, as set out in the Chapter on Human Rights in our Constitution.

The mission of the intelligence community, therefore, is to provide evaluated information with the following responsibilities in mind: firstly, the safeguarding of our Constitution and secondly, the upholding of the individual rights enunciated in our Constitution.

Recent events that culminated in the abuses referred to by our Minister have clearly demonstrated that we have drifted way off course in relation to that stated mission.

A significant provision in the White Paper is a code of conduct for members of the NIA and the intelligence community in general. This code of conduct emanates from the Transitional Executive Council’s Subcouncil on Intelligence, of which I had the privilege and honour to be a member.

This code of conduct makes provision for, amongst other things, all members of our intelligence services to -

Openly declare their loyalty to the Republic of South Africa, our Constitution and the laws of the country. Respect the norms, values and principles in our democratic society, including the basic human rights of individuals. Strive, in the execution of their duties, to attain the highest degree of objectivity, integrity and professionalism. Commit themselves to the promotion of mutual trust between policymakers (that is our President and his Cabinet) and professional intelligence workers, as well as co-operation with all other members of the intelligence community.

One of the most important principles set out in the White Paper is that of the political neutrality of our intelligence services. A national intelligence agency – we’ve said this before and we repeat it today - is a national asset and shall, therefore, be politically nonpartisan. It goes on to say, and I quote:

No intelligence or security service or organisation shall be allowed to carry out any operations or activities that are intended to undermine, promote or influence any South African political party or organisation at the expense of another, by means of any Acts, or by means of disinformation.

By virtue of his position as head of state, our President of South Africa is the chief client, or if you like, the commander in chief of all the country’s intelligence agencies. When the chief client expresses his concern at the quality of intelligence provided to him by our intelligence services, then it is time for us all not just to express grave concern; it is time to take stock.

We concur wholeheartedly with his view when he said at the intelligence services day on 24 November 2005, and I quote: The intelligence services of our country have come a long way, as has done our young democracy. Hard and dedicated work has resulted in many important breakthroughs, which made it possible for us all to confront threats to our society and thereby strengthen our democracy.

And then he went on to make the startling point about the quality of the intelligence he has been receiving, to which other hon members, including the Minister, have already alluded to. This statement by the chief client of our intelligence services is reason for us all to pause and take stock.

The Intelligence Services Oversight Act places a clear obligation on all members of these services to co-operate with the inspector-general on any investigation he conducts. Refusing to do so is a punishable offence. It is disappointing, to say the least, to be informed that certain senior members of the NIA blatantly refused to do so. We want to say that such members must face the full might of the law.

When the telephone numbers of private individuals are loaded onto a powerful resource like our national communication centre, this shows clear intent, in my view, to intercept their private communications in contravention of the law and in contravention of all the tenets of our democratic dispensation.

This action took us all back to those dark, fearful days, when one was not sure just who one’s friends were, or who one could trust. Nothing that is happening in South Africa’s body politic today can justify this action. So, we agree with our President when he said, and I quote:

I would like to make it clear to all of us that any action taken by the intelligence services designed deliberately to interfere with the normal political processes of parties or organisations that are engaged in lawful activities, are expressly forbidden.

To this end, therefore, we add to the President’s statement by saying that anyone and everyone responsible for these actions must be brought to book. We make this demand, because it is legally and morally the correct thing to do; because it is expected of us as Parliament’s oversight body, but we do so also because these abuses have had a profoundly negative and demoralising effect on the morale of members of the intelligence community.

What this means is that years of team-building has been destroyed and will require the collective leadership skills of the top management, particularly of the NIA, to help bring this organisation to the healthy level of proficiency and effectiveness it once enjoyed.

It is commendable, therefore, that the NIA have already initiated a review of the agency’s operational policies and procedures and that a process is under way to reconceptualise the concept of “political intelligence”. Whilst the committee welcomes these steps, we will however be closely monitoring the progress of these new measures.

Chairperson, we welcome the Minister’s statement with regard to the national communication centre and his promise of a tighter rein and control and we look forward to engaging with the Minister and the services on the provision of the task team’s report.

Just one comment to the hon Paul Swart, with regard to Minimum Information Security Standards, MISS: It is my personal view that it is the responsibility of the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence to hold those departments and other state-owned entities to account when they fail to comply. Chairperson, we support this budget. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr S N SWART: Chairperson, hon Minister, firstly, on a lighter note, the closest I have come to being part of the intelligence community is with my medical aid number, which begins with the numbers 007. [Laughter.]

I trust that I’ll be able to make an intelligent contribution to the debate today, not being privy to much of the activities of the joint standing committee. I first want to commend the various components of our intelligence services for the good work they have performed both inside and outside the Republic, often at great personal risk and sacrifice, and obviously subject to severe budgetary constraints. The ACDP salutes you.

Hon Minister, you quite correctly focused much of your speech on the recent scandals in the NIA. You spoke very frankly and used strong language such as skulduggery’’,rogues’’, etc. The ACDP agrees that the scandalous abuse of power has resulted in what you said is a sacred trust being damaged.

The ACDP welcomes the initiatives you have announced to guard the guards, and will be closely monitoring, as far as we are able, the efficiency of such initiatives, particularly regarding political intelligence mandates. We must ensure that our intelligence services are operating lawfully and within the confines of the Constitution at all times.

The ACDP agrees that control measures alone do not suffice. We need sound moral values and a sound work ethic, as you pointed out. What we need is character and conscience. The guards must guard themselves.

Let us take a leaf from the value statement of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, FBI; not from their intelligence-gathering capabilities, but from their motto, ``FBI’’, standing for fidelity, bravery and integrity.

Having dealt with the scandal, the stark statement in the 2006 budget estimates speaks volumes as to the achievements of the intelligences services. I just want to quote from it. It says: “In 2004-05, many international and domestic terrorist cells were infiltrated.” This is remarkable, speaks volumes and must be applauded.

This division also focuses on criminal investigations involving drugs, trafficking of firearms, etc. I want to conclude by saying that whilst we commend our intelligence services on their achievements, the question that arises is: Are they succeeding in the crime intelligence aspect in the ongoing fight against crime? Thank you. [Time expired.]

Mr I VADI: Chairperson, an interesting article on the Central Intelligence Agency in last weekend’s edition of the New York Times raised a profound question. It asked whether or not the CIA would continue to be the principal source of strategic intelligence analysis in the United States. It pointed out that CIA analysts, led by instant news spawned by media networks such as CNN, are producing instant analysis and that has suffocated and stifled thoughtful strategic analysis. What appears to underlie this weakness in the CIA is the nature of intelligence training since the emergence of global electronic media, coinciding with the end of the Cold War.

The bitter struggles over the future of the CIA after the disastrous intelligence failure of 9/11 foretell what might become our greatest challenge over the next few years. That challenge can be reduced to a single question: What kind of intelligence training is required so that our intelligence services offer the best possible intelligence analysis to our government in order to advance our national interests and to secure our people? I suppose a related question is whether or not the SA National Academy of Intelligence, Sanai, is discharging its mandate in providing adequate training to our intelligence personnel.

Our national academy was formally established in February 2003. It is three years old. Its vision is the creation of an excellent intelligence training, development and research institution that contributes to the professional development of our intelligence officers. Its mission is to develop a cadreship of loyal, competent and knowledgeable intelligence professionals who are capable of and committed to serving our country and the African continent.

The academy has three key objectives: Firstly, to present continuous training to our intelligence officers so as to ensure that their knowledge, skills and capacity are on par with the ever-changing global environment; secondly, to produce independent, relevant and quality research on the dynamics and changes within the international and domestic intelligence communities; and finally, to design and develop a relevant curriculum aimed at the professional growth of our intelligence officers.

After three years of existence, it might be appropriate for us to evaluate the performance of Sanai. Is it realising its mission and achieving its objectives? Is it on track in fulfilling its key mandates?

In its short lifespan, Sanai has developed into a viable intelligence training institution. Its location on the scenic outskirts of Mafikeng is ideal for its cadre training programme. It offers perfect facilities for training programmes for foreign intelligence services, notably from the African continent.

Sanai has some really dedicated and experienced intelligence trainers who have sacrificed the joys and comforts of living in a metropolitan city. They have relocated themselves and their families to work in relative isolation at the academy. We must express our appreciation to them for their dedication and commitment.

Sanai’s intelligence research institute has launched an academic journal called Intelligence Perspective. To date, it has published several issues dealing with topics such as current intelligence, early warning intelligence, lawful interception of telecommunications, and the similarities and differences between intelligence analysis and academic research.

The institute has also published a thought-provoking book on the Hefer Commission of Inquiry, drawing out lessons for our intelligence services on the tensions between secrecy and transparency in a democracy. These are all noteworthy achievements for a new intelligence institution such as Sanai. What then are the key challenges confronting Sanai?

Firstly, Sanai must be led by a united and cohesive management. Its leadership must share a common vision and have a passion for learning, teaching and training, and it must provide effective leadership to a new and growing institution. The management must also ensure that Sanai has developed the capacity for proper financial administration and control.

Secondly, management must ensure that Sanai’s staffing is skewed in favour of its core function, namely teaching and training. Currently, it does seem that it has too many noncore staff members, and possibly a top-heavy management structure with too few actual trainers. So, a more considered balance needs to be struck between management and actual trainers employed at the institution.

Thirdly, Sanai’s distance from our intelligence headquarters is not conducive to line function training. It is located too far from its main client base. Owing to its distant location, it appears that not many subject matter specialists and best-practice experts want to travel all the way to assist with training. This tends to limit the potential for the effective contribution to training programmes from highly experienced members working in line functions.

A rigid adherence to the view that all training must be done at Sanai will not help to resolve this difficulty. A more pragmatic and flexible approach is necessary. Sanai will have to consider offering programmes at multiple sites of learning. So, while certain core programmes may be offered at Sanai, others will have to be delivered closer to where people actually work, either at headquarters or in the provinces.

Fourthly, the academy itself is not suitable for conducting practical training based on real-life situations. Trainees, particularly new recruits, need to gain practical training in large cosmopolitan cities so that they get a hands-on feel of operational activities and intelligence trade craft.

While I do not have an immediate solution to offer in this regard, I do believe that it is a matter that requires further attention by the Sanai staff. In general, this also implies that an appropriate balance must be struck between theoretical development and mastering the operational aspects of intelligence activity.

Finally, Sanai must urgently develop its capacity to train intelligence officers in cyber forensics, border intelligence and counter-terrorism, as crimes related to these pose a serious threat to our national security. While the academy’s own capacity is being developed in these fields, it might consider forging partnerships with academic institutions and other service providers with expertise in these fields of study. I welcome the Minister’s proposals around introducing new elements to the curriculum to enhance professional accountability and professional integrity.

An intelligence organisation’s capacity to provide policy-relevant and unique intelligence to the national client can only be achieved when intelligence officers are properly trained and equipped with the necessary skills and knowledge. Quality training thus plays a central role in ensuring that our intelligence services are made up of officers who correctly know, understand and interpret the political and security needs of our country and the African continent, and who offer the best policy advice to our government. While Sanai has laid a strong foundation for this, much more work needs to be done. For that to happen Sanai needs more money and, therefore, the ANC supports this budget. [Applause.]

Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Voorsitter, ek wil begin deur vir die agb Minister te sê die VF Plus steun sy benadering dat, wat Intelligensie betref, daar meer deursigtigheid moet kom. Die dae is lankal verby toe nasionale intelligensie-agentskappe honderde agente wêreldwyd moes ontplooi om inligting te bekom.

Ons leef in die tyd van tegnologiese ontwikkeling, van die media en van inligting. Enigeen van ons kan vandag gaan en ’n presiese, mooi foto kry van die Uniegebou, ons kan ’n mooi uitleg en foto kry van die Parlement. Ons kan deur die wêreld reis en ons kan volledige foto’s en al die nodige inligting bekom van bakens wat in die verlede altyd bekendgestaan het as nasionale strategiese punte.

Ons kan vandag televisie kyk, en as ons CNN, Sky News of wat ook al kyk, sal ons verbaas wees om te sien watter inligting ons kan kry om te sien wat gebeur in ander lande en watter konflik daar plaasvind. Wat ek hiermee vir u sê, is dat die moderne tegnologie van so ’n aard is dat ons meer deursigtig kan wees ten opsigte van intelligensie in Suid-Afrika.

Daarom steun ons hierdie standpunt van die agb Minister dat daardie openheid moet kom, en ek dink die eerste stap wat die agb Minister, en ook die Gesamentlike Staande Komitee oor Intelligensie, kan doen, is om baie van hulle vergaderings oop te stel vir die media, sodat die media kan kom insit by die komitee, daar waar al die politieke partye verteenwoordig is, en kan sien wat bespreek word en insae kan kry in die werking van die Gesamentlike Staande Komitee oor Intelligensie.

Ek kom by ’n ander aspek en dit is al die probleme wat daar tans in die intelligensiegemeenskap is. Soos ons almal weet, is dit ’n kwessie van tyd, dan sal elke individu wat ’n selfoon het daardie selfoon moet laat registreer. As hy van daardie selfoon ontslae wil raak, sal daar kennis gegee moet word na wie toe dit gaan, ensovoorts.

Die publiek daar buite wil die vertroue hê dat hulle privaatheid gerespekteer gaan word. Hulle wil die vertroue hê dat hulle private gesprekke nie afgeluister sal word nie. As ons gaan kyk wat onlangs in Intelligensie gebeur het, sien ons dat van die senior amptenare - inteendeel, die top-amptenare – betrokke was by afluistering en het sekere disinformasie rondgestuur, nie vir die beveiliging van ons land nie, maar vir hul eie persoonlike motiewe.

Dan is die vraag: watter vertroue het die publiek daar buite dat hul private gesprekke nie ook vir eie private doeleindes en motiewe gebruik gaan word nie? Dit is die taak van die Minister – dit is op u skouers, agb Minister – om te verseker dat die publiek die vertroue kan hê dat hulle privaatheid gerespekteer gaan word. Dit is ’n groot taak op u skouers, maar ek wil u verseker die publiek, en ons almal, hou u dop om te sien of u daardie vertroue gaan herstel. Ek dank u. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Chairperson, I want to start by saying to the hon Minister that the FF Plus supports his approach that, as far as Intelligence is concerned, there should be more transparency. The days are long gone when the national intelligence agencies had to deploy hundreds of agents worldwide to gather information.

We are living in times of technological development, of the media and of information. Any one of us can go today and get a precise, good photograph of the Union Buildings, we can get a good lay-out and photograph of Parliament. We can travel through the world and can obtain detailed photographs and all the necessary information on landmarks, which, in the past, were always known as national strategic points.

Today we can watch television, and if we watch CNN, Sky News or whatever, we will be surprised to see what information we can obtain to see what is happening in other countries and what conflicts are taking place there. What I am trying to say is that modern technology is of such a nature that we can be more transparent in respect of intelligence in South Africa.

For that reason we support this standpoint of the hon Minister that that transparency must come, and I think the first step that the hon Minister, and also the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence, can take is to make many of their meetings accessible to the media, so that the media can come and sit with the committee, where all the political parties are represented, and can see what is being discussed and get an idea of the workings of the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence.

I want to discuss another aspect, and that is all the problems at present being encountered in the Intelligence community. As we all know, it is a question of time, then every individual who has a cellphone will have to register that cellphone. If he wants to get rid of that cellphone, he will have to give information on the person to whom that cellphone is going, etc.

The public out there want to be confident that their privacy will be respected. They want to believe that their private conversations will not be tapped. If we look at what happened in Intelligence recently, we see that some of the senior officials – in fact, the top officials – were responsible for phone-tapping and the distribution of certain disinformation, not for the safeguarding of our country, but for their own personal motives.

The question then is: What faith does the public out there have that their personal conversations will not also be used for private purposes and motives? It is the task of the Minister – it rests on your shoulders, hon Minister – to ensure that the public can have the faith that their privacy will be respected. An enormous task is resting on your shoulders, but I want to assure you that the public, and all of us, are watching you to see if you are going to restore that faith. I thank you.] Mnr S ABRAM: Agb Voorsitter, ek wil net vir die agb lid Groenewald sê dat ek juis later daaroor gaan praat in my toespraak, en wel oor die publiek en hoe hulle tans voel. Ek wil hom ook herinner dat hy hier gepraat het van deursigtigheid. Ek wil my graag wend tot die agb lid Swart, by wie deursigtigheid ernstig ontbreek het. Die agb lid het hier gepraat van die “aftermath” van sy toespraak verlede jaar. En ek wil hom graag herinner aan ’n ander “aftermath” en dit is toe mnre Bush en Blair met hul nagemaakte intelligensie en voorwendsels, Irak binnegeval het en hoe die agb Swart se party ondersteunend was van daardie inval. Hulle het daardie verwronge perd opgesaal en saam met die ander lande wat die inval ondersteun het, gesê dat Saddam Hussein in die bek geruk moet word.

Nou vier jaar later, na die dood van duisende burgerlikes, insluitende kinders in hierdie week waarin ons Internasionale Kinderdag vier, en die dood van jong soldate en ’n vernietigde land moet daardie leiers nou eerloos, broekloos, tenkloos en wapenloos, gewetenloos - en eersdaags Downingstraat 10-loos en Wit Huis-loos -met bebloede hande Irak verlaat. [Applous.]

Daar is ’n ander gevaarlike neiging in die toespraak van die agb lid Swart, waar hy en sy party … [Tussenwerpsels.] Ek wil net graag vir juf Smuts sê: sy hou daarvan om hier te kekkel; sy sal tuis voel op my plaaswerf met al my geveerde gaste. [Applous.] Dit is waar dat hulle glo en dit het die agb lid Swart nou gesê … (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.) [Mr S ABRAM: Hon Chairperson, I just want to say to the hon Groenewald that I shall be discussing the matter of public opinion later on in my speech. I also want to remind him that he spoke here about transparency. I would like to turn to the hon member Swart, in whose case transparency was sadly lacking. The hon member spoke here about the “aftermath” of his speech last year. And I would like to remind him of another “aftermath”, namely that when Messrs Bush and Blair invaded Iraq with their false intelligence and pretexts, the hon Swart and his party were supportive of that invasion. They saddled that misshapen horse and, together with the other countries who supported the invasion, said that Saddam Hussein had to be forced into submission.

Now, four years later, after the death of thousands of civilians, including children, during this week in which we are celebrating International Children’s Day, and the death of young soldiers and a country destroyed, those leaders will have to leave Iraq with bloodied hands, devoid of honour or conscience, without uniforms, tanks or weapons, and soon without the support of 10 Downing Street and the White House. [Applause.]

There is another dangerous tendency in the hon member Swart’s speech, where he and his party … I just want to say to Miss Smuts: She likes cackling here; she will feel at home in my farmyard with all my feathered guests. [Applause.] It is true that they believe and the hon member Swart has said this now … ] Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Chairperson, one has to be somewhat amazed at the speech of the hon Abram. I am rising on a point of order: The remarks that he made to Ms Smuts and about Ms Smuts certainly border on foul language. And I would suggest that they are very much unparliamentary.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): Order! Hon member, may I appeal to you that if you made some unparliamentary remarks that you withdraw them and continue with your speech?

Mr S ABRAM: Hon Chair, what I said is general talk in Afrikaans.

Ons kekkel en kraai, en so aan. [We cackle and crow, and so on.]

Mr M J ELLIS: Mr Chairman that is absolutely unacceptable.

Mr S ABRAM: We always call the hon member Van Niekerk, “Kraai” and that doesn’t mean that he is crowing! [Laughter.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): Hon Ellis, please take your seat. I’ll study the Hansard and I will give a report.

Mnr S ABRAM: Waar die agb lid Swart sê dat Afrikane uit ander dele van die kontinent - en hy sê in Engels … [When the hon Swart says that Africans from other parts of the continent, and he says in English that …] … cross our borders to rape, rob and murder our people …

…hierdie woorde is xenofobies, en “rassisme” en “xenofobie” is twee woorde wat onparlementêr verklaar is in hierdie agb Raad. Ek vra u graag dat u na die Hansard sal kyk en ’n beslissing daaroor op ’n latere stadium sal gee. My tyd is kort.

Aangesien daar in die jongste tyd veel gesê, geskryf en bespiegel is oor die onlangse gebeure en doen en late in ons Nasionale Intelligensiedienste, het ek dit gerade geag om hierdie geleentheid te gebruik om die vrese van die breë burgery – en ek is jammer die agb lid Groenewald is nou nie meer hier nie – te besweer en sodoende om hulle gerus te stel. Die ANC-regering het sedert sy bewindsoorname 12 jaar gelede, ver gevorder om uiting te gee aan deursigtigheid en dit wat in ons Vryheidsmanifes staan. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[…these words are xenophobic, and “racism” and “xenophobia” are two words which have been declared unparliamentary in this august House. I would like to ask you to peruse Hansard and give a ruling in this regard at a later date. My time is limited.

Since a lot has been said, written and speculated of late about the recent happenings in our National Intelligence Service, I thought it wise to avail myself of this opportunity to allay the fears of the general public – and I am sorry that the hon member Groenewald is not here any more – and, in so doing, reassure them. Since the ANC came into power 12 years ago it has done a lot to promote transparency and the principles contained in our Freedom Charter.]

It states: “There shall be work and security. There shall be houses, security and comfort for all.”

I now want to ask the question: what is intelligence? In terms of the Intelligence Services Oversight Act, the definition is that -

Intelligence means the process of gathering, evaluation, correlation and interpretation of security information, including activities related thereto as performed by the Services.

Sir, if you put my brains on a scale, and yours, mine will outweigh yours a hundred times. [Laughter.] You must not think that because you are in the DA and had the privileges of studying and all the doors of learning were open to you, that you are in any way superior to us seated on this side. [Applause.] And you, you will never become an honorary white. Do whatever you want.

Jy kan ook kekkel soveel soos jy wil. [You may also cackle as much as you wish.]

What is oversight? Oversight is the process and means by which accountable persons are called upon to account. What is accountability? It is an obligation to answer to someone with authority for the execution of one’s assigned responsibilities; or accountability is an obligation to demonstrate and take responsibility for performance against agreed standards.

Intelligence, therefore, is vital to a stable democracy and includes, inter alia, military, crime, national and domestic, departmental and economic intelligence. Intelligence can also be a threat to democracy, if services do not act in accordance with the law and most importantly, if services are not subjected to robust and transparent civilian oversight by Parliament.

Section 199, subsection 8 of the Constitution provides as follows:

To give effect to the principles of transparency and accountability, multiparty Parliamentary committees must have oversight of all security services in a manner determined by national legislation or the rules and orders of Parliament.

This section was given effect to by the promulgation of the Intelligence Services Oversight Act, Act No 40, which provided for the establishment of the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence by the President, the oversight mechanisms and procedures governing reporting by the JSCI to Parliament and the appointment of inspectors-general in respect of each service.

It is therefore necessary in order to allay the fears of the broad civilian population, that we look at the Provision of the Regulation of Interception of Communications and Provision of Communication- Related Information Act, Act No 70 of 2002, which has a range of provisions under chapter 3 thereof, dealing with governing interceptions.

The complex world in which we live, sir, with its advanced digital technology networks poses equally complex challenges. The Act provides for the creation of an office for interception centres and further provides for an applicant who, inter alia, means a member as defined in section 1 of the Intelligence Services Act, if the member concerned obtained in writing the approval in advance of another member of the agency or the service, as the case may be, holding a post of at least general manager, to apply to a designated judge, for the issuing of an interception direction. Such applications must be in written form but the Act also provides for an application to be made orally by the applicant, if he or she is of the opinion that it is not reasonably practicable, having regard to the urgency of the case or the existence of exceptional circumstances, to do so in writing.

The applicant has to provide the designated judge with exhaustive information and the designated judge may call for further information to enable him or her to apply his or her mind thoroughly before approving or rejecting the application. When approving applications, the designated judge may specify conditions or restrictions relating to the interception of communications authorised therein and permission may be issued for a period not exceeding three months at a time.

Finally, members of the public, inter alia, who are aggrieved by any alleged transgressions by any of the services can access the Office of the Inspector-General, whose functions are prescribed in the Intelligence Services Oversight Act, Act No 40 of 1994. Amongst those functions are: to monitor compliance with the Constitution, applicable laws and policies on intelligence, and also, to receive and investigate complaints from members of the public and members of the service on alleged maladministration, abuse of power, transgression of the Constitution, laws and policies related to intelligence and counterintelligence and improper enrichment of any person through an act or omission.

In view of the fact that my time is very limited, I would like to call upon the public to make use of this particular avenue, which provides safeguards for the civilian population. If anybody feels that their rights have been violated by the engagement in some or other activity of the services, then they are very welcome to make use of these services. I just want to remind my friends here … Wanneer ek daar anderkant sit, dan sien ek die donker kolletjies gou raak. [Tyd verstreke.] [When I am sitting over there, I can see the dark spots easily.][Time expired.]] Mr L M GREEN: Chairperson, hon Ministers and members, when debating this Budget Vote today, I would like to speak on the need for secrecy by intelligence services versus the importance of transparency in our democratic state.

It goes without saying that, in order to effectively neutralise national and international threats against the security of our government and the nation, the need for secrecy in our intelligence services becomes an imperative. However, secrecy without sufficient transparency and accountability to the appropriate authorities and oversight structures would in itself become a threat to our present government. A case in point is the suspension of the former NIA Director-General and the Head of Operations for being involved in the unlawful surveillance of ANC businessman, Mr Saki Macozoma. The FD would like to use this opportunity to commend the Minister for Intelligence and the inspector-general for their swift intervention.

One cannot use the resources of the state to settle political scores and to promote one’s own political agenda. The purpose of NIA is to defend and protect this government and the nation against crime syndicates, drug lords, money launderers and any person and organisation that intends to destabilise our democracy.

Another case of concern is the mysterious disappearance of Khalid Mahmood Rashid, a Pakistani national. It has been alleged by several national newspapers that the SAPS Intelligence Unit has handed Mr Khalid over to foreign intelligence agents and that Mr Khalid has been secretly flown out from Waterkloof Air Force Base to Guantanamo Bay, a torture camp, because there were claims that he was a member of Al-Qaeda.

Now, if Mr Khalid was in the country illegally, he should have been deported to Pakistan, his country of origin; and if foreign agents wanted to arrest him for alleged international terrorism, they should have done so in Pakistan, not here.

Hon Minister, this information is in the public domain. If it is untrue, please correct this perception. The FD supports this Budget Vote. [Time expired.]

Mr D V BLOEM: Baie dankie, Voorsitter. Jy sien dié is nie ’n sirkus nie. [Gelag.] Dié is ernstige goed. Mnr Green, as jy hier kom praat moet jy feite hê. Moenie goed in die koerante lees en dan … Gaan sit, gaan sit! [Gelag.] [Thank you very much, Chair. You see, this is not a circus. [Laughter.] This is serious stuff. Mr Green, when you come and speak here you must have facts. Don’t read things in the newspapers and then … Sit down! Sit down! [Laughter.]]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Agb Bloem, u is nie hier om te sê wat in die Huis moet gebeur nie. Ek sal sorg dat daar orde is. [Hon Bloem, you are not here to say what should happen in the House. I will see to it that there is order.] Mr D V BLOEM: Baie dankie. [Gelag.] Laat ek eers begin, dan sal ek terugkom na julle toe. [Thank you very much. [Laughter.] Let me just begin, and then I will return to you.]

Chairperson, Minister, Members of Parliament, Inspector-General, Directors- General – our beautiful Directors-General, ladies and gentlemen - I am rising to support the Intelligence Budget Vote.

I believe it is only correct for all of us never to forget the contribution that people like Comrade Joe Nhlanhla has made to bring this country to where we are today. [Applause.] I am saying we must never forget the sacrifices comrades like him have made for all of us to sit here in this House as South Africans; South Africans with different opinions, but who are able to talk about our differences without fighting.

We know that comrade Joe is not well, but I want to wish him a speedy recovery. I want to say to Comrade Joe, “I salute you, Comrade Joe”. In the same breath I also want to say to our Minister that when the President decided to appoint you as Minister for Intelligence, I am sure that he had full confidence in your ability to execute your duty with the commitment and loyalty that you have displayed over these very difficult years of struggle. Minister, let me express my appreciation for the work that you have done for this country.

I am mentioning this unselfishness of this great South African who never climbed up the mountain looking for recognition and praise. He knew very well that he was working for a better South Africa where all South Africans, black and white, will live together as brothers and sisters. Can you imagine what would have happened without people like Comrade Joe Nhlanhla? Yes, I am mentioning this, because these men and women sitting here and in the gallery today are doing very difficult work.

Every day when we switch our television sets on you will hear of syndicates for cars, drugs or any other thing that have been uncovered. Many people have been arrested. You read in newspapers about syndicates dealing with passports or ID documents - listen up, hon Chauke - or ID documents, being arrested. These are men and women who don’t want to be seen. Who don’t want to pose in front of cameras or appear on television. No, the only thing that they are interested in is the safety of the citizens of this country. [Interjections.] Selfless South Africans, I also want to take this opportunity to salute all of you, my brothers and sisters, for this very good job that you are doing. [Applause.] The only way to motivate these people is to give them the necessary resources they need.

Let me start with NICOC, the National Intelligence Co-ordinating Committee. I am asking whether NICOC co-ordination in South Africa is effective or are we paying lip service to the intelligence co-ordination? We have the legislation in place to ensure intelligence co-ordination, but are we applying this effectively?

The National Strategic Intelligence Act, for example, makes provision for the Minister to regulate the co-ordination of intelligence as an activity, as well as to regulate the co-ordination of crime intelligence and counter- intelligence. Is it not time for the Minister for Intelligence, without legislating our intelligence service, to regulate co-ordination of intelligence as an activity?

The measures put in place after 9/11 by governments globally to strengthen intelligence co-ordination demonstrated that the intelligence co-ordination needs some level of attention, whether this be by law or by regulation, as it is not possible to achieve effective intelligence co-ordination simply through the goodwill of the participants.

I want to raise a very serious problem I am having, something that has been troubling me for some time now - Minister I am sure that you are listening. It is the matter of the media reports about the President of the Youth League, Mr Mbalula. It was reported that he complained to you that he was under surveillance by NIA and that you did not respond in the same manner as you responded to the complaint by Mr Macozoma.

Minister, this is a very serious allegation, and in particular the charge that there is evidence that you were treating these two complaints differently. You must please respond to this one, because it is a worry to me. I think we must not choose sides. We must be very straightforward and honest when we are dealing with these types of things. [Interjections.]

Mr L M GREEN: The hon Bloem was accusing me of using newspaper quotes and he is doing exactly the same. Is that acceptable, Chairperson?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon Green, for a start, I was not here when you were being accused, so I cannot …

Mr D V BLOEM: Thank you very much. I am saying he is a Reverend. I will never go to his church, because he is not speaking the truth. [Laughter.] [Interjections.]

To what degree has NICOC succeeded in centralising the strategic analysis function? Have we reached the point where our intelligence agency centralised all strategic intelligence critical to our national security, or are we still stove-piping the production of intelligence assessments? A situation where the client of intelligence received different products on the same issue is not acceptable. We need one integrated intelligence assessment drawing from all the different intelligence structures.

NICOC should be able to provide government with an objective view and provide an important counter way to the understandable desire of intelligence agencies to push their product to policy-makers. An independent filter between the intelligence officer who writes the report and the ultimate intelligence customer who contributes to maintain objectivity and common standards is required.

Integrated assessments that draw on a full range of intelligence, diplomatic, government and overt reporting would offer policy makers a better analysis and comprehensive view of issues. If NICOC is not yet playing this role, then this is a cause of concern.

NICOC must ensure that they make use of all the information available to government in preparing a strategic integrated intelligence assessment from within the intelligence community, within government as a whole, from open sources and from experts outside government. Against the background of the recent developments in the civilian intelligence community, emphasis is placed on the need for intelligence analysis to be guided by the highest standard of impartiality, integrity, honesty and confirmation of the intelligence picture. [Time expired.]

The MINISTER FOR INTELLIGENCE: Hon Chairperson, if I might immediately start with a question posed by the hon Bloem, and to immediately state that I first learnt of the ANC Youth League’s president’s complaint in the media. He had phoned me and I didn’t recognise his voice or understand who it was. He was rather angry that I had dealt with Mr Macozoma’s complaint. He asked me what I was doing about his.

When I saw in the press the next day who in fact it was, I did contact him. We had an interview with him. In fact, the acting Director-General of NIA came in with me to find out what in fact the complaint was. We asked the youth league leader to please provide us with a written statement so that that could be investigated.

Of course, I would say this to all the members of the public out there, that on any complaint, follow the course of Mr Macozoma. He wrote to me and phoned me, and we received the lawyer’s letter. He gave us the facts, and we could follow up the matter on that basis.

I must say that to date, six months later, Mr Mbalula has failed to send us a written statement. Nevertheless, the Director-General of NIA has followed through the complaint. It was difficult because there were no real facts – the matter was very flimsy - but he was able to establish that, certainly, in as far as the National Intelligence Agency is concerned, there was no operation against him whatsoever. There are a couple of other very important questions, which I want to respond to immediately, in the public interest. From the hon Groenewald, the question of assuring the public that they are safe when they talk on their phones, when they send e-mails, when they are on the Internet, when they use their cellphones and faxes and so on, we can indeed assure the public of this.

The office for interception centres, the OIC, which is being set up to deal with all these, operates under very strict control, dealing with the interception of all those communication forms. The law-enforcement agency must first obtain - and that would be near the police, defence and so on - a warrant from the judge before the OIC can then go and request an interception from the service provider. Without a warrant, the service provider will not load a number into its system to enable the OIC to then intercept it.

The entire warrant process, up until and including the interception, can be clearly audited by any of the oversight institutions, namely the inspector- general and the parliamentary Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence. With all our new procedures, which I have outlined, and given the shock and the setback we found and faced from the infringements that have occurred this past year, we have tightened up all these controls.

I’ve been to the OIC. I’ve met with the staff and I have spoken to them about the importance of the Constitution and legality, etc. I’ve seen their system. No one can guarantee 100%, whether you are the FBI, CIA, MI6 or the old KGB, that there might be no violations. But we are moving everything that we can in this country to ensure that we tighten things up, because we don’t want these violations at all.

Coming to hon Swart’s question - I thank Judge Seriti for remaining with us up to this point - the present judge, Judge Seriti, was appointed correctly, in terms of the old monitoring Act of 1992, which is still in force. Therefore there is no problem regarding the legality of his appointment or the warrants that he signs. This will take us to 1 July, when the new Act becomes enforced and the OIC begins to take over all the operations. This is why the present judge was only appointed for this interim period, since he is not retired.

I do want to say to hon Swart that his is an important question, and I have checked this very carefully with the Justice department, and I want to assure you that this is what I fully understand. The judge is extremely legal in everything he has been doing.

I quickly want to deal with a few questions from Adv Swart. He posed a number of challenging questions, such as, to what extent the intelligence services - NIA in particular, but this has affected everybody – had been derailed by these unlawful acts which have scandalised this country. “What happened”, hon Swart asked me, “to the normal, ongoing activities of the services?”

I could have chosen to simply come here and ignore this scandal and address the ongoing work in terms of my 10 priorities, which were outlined two years ago. I reported on them last year. I will still report to the standing committee regarding that progress.

Quite frankly, I had to weigh up whether to come here and use my 30 minutes simply to go through the routine work, as important as it is, because there has nevertheless been tremendous progress notwithstanding. But, clearly, owing to public interest, with Parliament representing the public, it was incumbent on me to come here and explain as thoroughly as I did.

I did, you will note, at the end of my speech, say that notwithstanding all those problems, the services have kept their eye on the ball. They have maintained their commitment to the ongoing work and indeed to the priorities. Of course, these are young services, which are only 11 years old. You can talk about other international services making all sorts of mistakes; services that have been in the business for decades and some for centuries. That is what we need to bear in mind.

You have posed six to eight questions in relation to the priorities, and I will be giving written answers to all the questions that have been raised here, as you know I do. But I want very quickly to say to you that regarding the budget factor, the first priority is to get the expenditure items into alignment.

I noted two years ago that we were spending far too much on remuneration, at the expense of core basic business, the rock face of operations and the necessary investment into capital, into property, equipment and so on. I can tell you that NIA, for instance, has reduced its personnel expenditure, from the previous year to this, from 74% to 67%. We are beginning to see the turnaround and I regard this as extremely significant.

In relation to the early warning centre, enormous work has been done. We’ve been helping the region and the continent. You’ve referred to vetting and to misregulations. The Minister for the Public Service and Administration has to ensure that the services and her department work together in order to ensure that new regulations are brought to Cabinet to replace the existing regulations. Hopefully, we will be able to report back before the end of the year.

With regard to vetting, the previous Director-General had been given that task. I was hopeful in this past year that I would come and look at this with the standing committee and present a Cabinet memorandum. The presentation made to me was so weak that, quite frankly, I tossed it out and I said, “Go and start again”. Of course, I didn’t realise - perhaps in our naivety at that stage - that the reason a very hard-working individual was not giving me the product I desired was because his mind and his fingers were in other activities. So we live and learn. I don’t mind saying that I learn from mistakes at my late age in life. There’s hardly any time left, but …

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): I’m going to give you three minutes.

The MINISTER FOR INTELLIGENCE: Thanks, that’s very kind of you, Chairperson. I really appreciate it. The hon Green made reference to the deportation of Rashid Khalid, Home Affairs, the SA Police Service and Safety and Security. I want to assure him that it is not true that our services, whether from Home Affairs – Minister, thanks for your presence - or from police, connived with other parties and sent this individual to Guantanamo Bay.

The individual concerned was in this country and had false documentation. A question was asked. The Department of Home Affairs, with assistance from crime intelligence did a tremendous job and were able to track this individual down. The individual was then deported back to his home country, which is Pakistan.

Once an individual is back in their home country, in this case Pakistan, what then happens does not involve us, but involves that home country and any other country. I cannot say this in a guaranteed way: My understanding is that the gentleman is still in that country.

Certainly, what we need to answer - and I work with responsible Ministers – is whether we sent this individual back to his home country. If any member here is saying we are wrong in acting against individuals who come into this country illegally on false documents, then, please, raise that and we will gladly discuss it with you.

I really think that I have dealt with the most substantive of those questions. Certainly, hon member Vadi is absolutely correct in his focus on the academy and training. That is certainly something we are giving much attention to, including the flexibility. We are in the process of ensuring that an element of training must take place closer to our services in Pretoria, without undermining the academy in Mafikeng and the important work it is doing there.

You made reference to something we are very proud of, that whatever weaknesses we might still have, we feel that the curricula, the training and management must be improved. Many an African country is very, very pleased with the kind of training we’ve been able to give them in terms of the start-up for what, in many countries, are very young services.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon Minister, your time has now expired.

The MINISTER FOR INTELLIGENCE: Thank you. [Applause.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Before any member thinks that I was indulging the Minister, he was actually using his allotted time, which the clock didn’t indicate.

Debate concluded.

                         APPROPRIATION BILL

Debate on Vote No 22 – Independent Complaints Directorate and Vote No 27 – Safety and Security:

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Chairperson, hon members of the House, the current strategic thrust for policing in South Africa is the reduction of crime by between 7% and 10% annually. We shall review this strategy at the end of 2009 and make whatever changes may be necessary in the circumstances. As hon members will appreciate, any strategy requires a good set of tactics for it to work. In our case, we believe that we have to deploy our resources, both human and material, in such a way that they become a well co-ordinated vehicle for service delivery.

Recent visits to police stations by SAPS managers revealed that a flatter organisational structure was required, rather than the many layers of command and control, for better service delivery to our people on the ground. It was obvious, therefore, that restructuring the service was necessary as a way forward to better policing and improved services, using the local police station as the crucible of such delivery.

The revised structure will incorporate the advantages of decentralisation of work and authority, along with specialised skills that will be available at station level.

The focus of the restructuring was directed towards the following: reducing the current four policing levels to three, in other words, national, provincial, and station level, which is in line with the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa; reducing the provincial and national structures to improve co-ordination and the provision of functional policing and the support services; redeployment to station level of certain specialised operational policing functions to ensure crimes are investigated where they occur; moving of national, provincial and area skilled persons to stations to increase the leadership, management, decision-making and skill levels at stations to deal with the stations’ unique crime challenges; empowering station commissioners to render a comprehensive service and effectively manage all resources and amend accountability frameworks effectively to assess the performance of stations and station commissioners in terms of standardised performance indicators.

The restructuring process will not result in job losses, nor will it result in massive displacement of personnel. The moving of skilled personnel will be done with due regard to their field of competence. Personnel will be moved within close proximity of their current place of employment, depending on the prioritisation of station precincts.

The revised structure will also ensure that police-community trust is enhanced and that it also will improve the morale of SAPS personnel. Government’s intention to establish one-stop service centres will benefit from the changes we are making, as many of the complaints we receive will be attended to at station level without reference to other layers and structures.

The necessary preparations have been completed for the first phase of the redeployment to commence during the last quarter of this year.

The most fundamental of the changes to be effected will be the dissolution of the area offices. Resources from those offices will be devolved to the various police stations as part of the station empowerment strategy. The advantages that will flow from the new arrangement will include the following: elimination of wasteful duplication; improved service delivery on the ground; improved command and control of all resources; improved interaction, communication and participation; and quicker responses to the needs of the communities.

The management of the police stations will be the key to success. We have therefore been training our station commissioners better to discharge that function. We have introduced a station management learning programme, comprising six modules, that will see all station commissioners undergoing intensive training over the next three years. The programme, which is staggered, will end on 31 March 2009.

The investigators that will be deployed at the police stations will be a combination of experienced members, some of whom will be redeployed from the former area offices, and well-trained detectives who have emerged from our new training programmes. This year the detective service will be enhanced by an additional 1 000 newly trained members. The addition to the detectives is a means of consolidating our effort to reduce shortages in the service, among others things, by deploying to the detective services 30% of trained police constables directly after they have completed their basic training.

We have streamlined the career path of detectives so that we retain experienced members in operations and have them promoted within a three- level system, while they continue to do functional police work, rather than to promote them into administrative, managerial positions.

We are currently taking our general investigators through multilevel specialised courses to give them capacity to investigate every type of crime. It goes without saying therefore that the allocation for the current and subsequent financial years will be directed in the main to the improvements that the restructuring is ushering in. This is on the basis of the philosophy of more and better resources to the front.

We started pilot projects a couple of years ago to test the effectiveness of clustering police stations for improved command and control and co- ordination. We are now ready to roll it out to all provinces. The strategy will define a process within the clusters where police will unite often in joint projects to deal with cross-station precinct crimes and threats. The biggest station in the cluster will be the accounting station. Located at the accounting station will be a structure that will be the supply chain for the needs of the various stations in that cluster. This will replace the area structures.

Some of the specialised units of the police will be shifted to selected accounting stations. Among those will be the family violence child protection and sexual offences, crime combating units, as well as members from the serious and violent crimes units. In all respects, the strategy will be to shift more and better resources to the front, at the coalface of the fight against crime.

In the past two months this country has been gripped by the kind of violence that we last saw in the late 80s and early 90s, before the democratic breakthrough of 1994. This violence is happening on the back of a strike by workers in the private security industry.

No worker or worker leader should be happy to see fellow workers dying as they are in the course of the strike; worse still, when their death is caused by other workers. There was confrontation yesterday in Port Elizabeth between striking and nonstriking workers. At the end of that incident, one worker lay dead from bullet wounds and several others were injured. The police arrested seven workers and confiscated eight firearms.

More than 20 workers have been murdered during the strike, the great majority having been thrown out of moving trains, as happened before the advent of democracy in South Africa. More than 256 workers have been arrested on charges of murder, attempted murder, assault, public violence and intimidation. Others were arrested for violating the Regulation of Gatherings Act.

The police will continue to apply the law and will act firmly against those who commit crimes during the strike. There is no place in our democracy for hooliganism and anarchy and there is certainly no place for crime and criminality. In order for us to protect our democracy, we need to adhere strictly to the dictates of our law. Anyone who engages in activities that seek to undermine our rule of law, will face the full might of the law. It does not matter who it is. You act like a criminal and you will be dealt with like one.

The national commissioner met the Satawu leadership on two occasions to discuss the incidence of violence. Senior officers of the police have continued to interact with the worker leaders. The police are also interfacing with the employers to encourage all concerned to find a settlement. The private security industry is notorious for bad conditions of work and very low wages. That obviously is at variance with government’s concept of a better life for all. The workers in the industry, therefore, have a right to struggle for a better work dispensation. There are 4 923 security companies that are registered with the Private Security Industry Regulatory Authority. The companies employ 306 407 workers, who work as security guards. During the last financial year, the PSIRA conducted 6 527 inspections at security establishments and compiled 1 738 dockets for improper conduct against some of the companies, in terms of the statutory code of conduct.

In the process we have discovered 718 unregistered workers. It is our view, though, that the contingent of unregistered workers in the industry is very big. The great majority of them are undocumented foreign nationals. That matter is receiving focused attention by the law enforcement agencies and more inspections will be launched in the period under review.

We will continue to improve our tactics regarding crime prevention to stop crime in a manner of speaking from happening. Of course, our main thrust in this respect is social crime prevention. The Deputy Minister, the hon Susan Shabangu, is going to speak to that issue later on.

The key to crime prevention always is to address crime generators of every kind, including negative socioeconomic conditions. Substance abuse is one of the crime generators we are going to pay particular attention to during this financial year.

Gun ownership in South Africa continues to be an emotive issue. Guns in South Africa continue to be the main weapon of choice in the commission of serious and violent crimes. But gun violence is not just a South African phenomenon. As Sarah Brady argues in the introduction to the book The Global Gun Epidemic by Wendy Cukier and Victor W Sidel, published this year by Praeger Security International:

Just as guns know no borders, gun violence has become a global epidemic; killing hundreds of thousands of people each year and injuring more. The toll is staggering. Experts estimate that there are 35 000 annual gun- related deaths in Brazil, 10 000 in South Africa, 20 000 in Colombia and 30 000 in the United States.

But Brady goes on to make the following observation:

Virtually every illegal gun begins as a legal gun. And unregulated ownership of guns fuels crime. Because weapons tend to flow from unregulated areas to regulated areas, international co-operation is critical.

She adds the following:

Since 1998 there has been an emerging global movement to control the illicit trade and misuse of guns, and many countries have moved to strengthen their gun laws in an effort to combat this global epidemic.

We are among the governments of the world that are looking at proper firearms control and given that this matter is again before Parliament, I will not engage further with it at this time. It is appropriate, though, to leave you with the following observation by Cukier and Sidel:

South Africa is one of the few countries that have allowed widespread carrying of handguns for self-protection by civilians. Despite the emphasis on problems associated with post-conflict military weapons, the vast majority of firearms recovered in crime in South Africa, are pistols, revolvers, rifles and shotguns, and not military weapons.

I want to repeat that the Firearms Control Act and the Firearms Control Amendment Act are intended to assist the SA Police Service in preventing the proliferation of illegal firearms and removing them from society, as well as to control legally owned firearms.

Between 1 April 2003 and 31 March 2006 we have collected 187 772 firearms in South Africa. It is extremely disappointing to note that South African gun owners over the last three years lost 50 864 firearms. It is obvious that the great majority of those weapons have become part of the illegal guns that are in circulation at this time.

We will continue to accredit nonofficial and official institutions such as training entities and shooting ranges to ensure that potential firearm owners receive the necessary mandatory training. In the past 12 months since April last year, we accredited 586 non-official firearm institutions, including 151 shooting ranges and 232 training facilities.

Significant strides have been made by the Criminal Record Centre and Forensic Science Laboratory in the fight against crime. The CRC has procured 108 live-scan booking stations capable of capturing finger- and palmprints electronically. This will improve the quality of prints that will be added to the Afis database that will enhance our ability to arrest identified suspects.

More than 2 800 digital cameras, 23 plan-drawing programmed computers, 29 digital capturing systems and 89 lift scan systems for the scanning and printing of folien have also been obtained to assist in criminal investigations.

The Forensic Science Laboratory has installed an automated DNA analysis system to double the daily analysis of samples. The unit is expected to be fully operational by next month. The Ibis system used by the ballistics units is currently being improved to help solve firearms-related cases. A video spectral comparator infrared apparatus has also been acquired to assist in the differentiation between inks and documents and detection of alterations, additions and obliterations on documents.

The gas chromatograph mass spectrometers were also purchased to assist in analysing drug-related cases. The Craig Micro Spectrometer was also bought for colour analysis of various materials, such as fibres and paint samples.

The crime rate in the areas close to the borderline where SAPS members are deployed showed a decrease during the past financial year. Cross-border crime, affecting farmers next to the Free State borderline, involving attacks on farmers and damage to their property has declined drastically. Farmers in this area are increasingly sharing information with SAPS as a result and consequence of this.

During the current financial year, the following will continue to receive priority attention. The land borderline control continues to be executed within six provinces. The priority for the current financial year is the Lesotho land borderline, including KwaZulu-Natal, Free State and the Eastern Cape.

Regarding the sea borderline control, the Western Cape’s sea borderline control to deal with transnational crime within the maritime environment was launched on 4 January this year.

The operational area entails the sea borderline from Cape Town in the Western Cape to the Green River Mouth in the Northern Cape province. The deployment includes the policing of the various maritime zones, namely, South African territorial waters, continuous zones and exclusive economic zones, and the radius of 20km inland of the shoreline.

In December 2005 the air borderline control was established with South Africa and Zimbabwe, and South Africa and Mozambique. To achieve this objective, the airstrips and smaller airfields in the Limpopo province are policed. Operations in respect to air borderline control were rolled out to the provinces of Gauteng, North West, Northern Cape and Free State.

The protection and security service of the SA Police Service is paying focused attention within the environments of railway policing, ports of entry and the government’s security regulator. All the pilot sites are now fully operational. Members have been deployed at the Johannesburg International Airport, Metro Rail system in Cape Town, and a big contingent of others is being trained for permanent deployment in the railway police environment in Gauteng and KwaZulu-Natal. The national mobile training unit will also be part of the redeployment.

The other protection and security members are deployed at the Durban Harbour and the Beit Bridge border post. The protection and security services established a counterassault team geared for rapid deployment in high-risk operations within the VIP protection environment.

I am proud to announce that it includes the only female, Captain Thandeka Majola, ever to complete the freefall course in parachuting at the SA National Defence Force. [Applause.]

The process to transfer to SAPS excess SADNF personnel to do police work commenced last year. Two-hundred-and-ninety-six members have already completed their conversion training. They will be part of the protection and security service.

In my Budget Vote speech last year, I indicated that an alternative system would be put in place by SAPS to address the phasing out of the commando system to avoid a security vacuum. Increasing reservist numbers was one of the identified strategies to do that. A new system has been in force since April. It entails a call-up of reservists by the provincial commissioner on a rotation basis for which they will be paid.

The basis of the call-up will be the prevailing crime trends identified at the given station level. They will also participate in the rural safety programme. Despite the new system, the philosophy of the reservist system that it is by nature voluntary remains intact.

An amount of R265 million has been approved for the call-up of reservists. It will be allocated as follows during the current financial year: R60 million for the call-up of 8 000 reservists, and the following financial year we will have R80 million for the call-up of 10 000 reservists. In the last financial year of the Medium-Term Expenditure Framework cycle, R125 million will be available for the recruitment of 15 000 reservists. Almost 17 000 reservists were recruited during the last financial year, of which 130 were commando members, recruited in respect of the exit/entry strategy between the SANDF and SAPS. It is anticipated that the recruitment of former commando members will increase, as the units that are due for closure are comprised of fully active members.

The SAPS training continues to use best practice to produce skilled functionaries in the service. In the last financial year, the primary focus was on functional and operational interventions. During the year under review, it is on operational command and control, management and leadership development.

A scarce skills policy was developed and approved in 2004, designed to retain scarce skills and pay the requisite remuneration for such skills. We started paying allowances in April this year, in keeping with our intention to retain scarce skills.

The National Secretariat for Safety and Security and the Independent Complaints Directorate continue to service the Ministry for Safety and Security. In the previous Budget Vote I indicated that both those entities would be restructured for maximum effectiveness. Work in that direction has already been done. However, attention was focused at national level only as a means to kick-start the process.

The next phase will be the structural review and design of the secretariat at the provincial level, a matter that is receiving attention between the Ministry and the members of the executive council responsible for community safety in the provinces at one level, and the Department of the Public Service and Administration on the other.

An increase of approximately 17,5% marks the budget allocation this financial year of the Independent Complaints Directorate. This has enabled the directorate to continue to improve its internal capacity to investigate complaints and to raise the level of its administrative ability to deal with the implementation of obligatory legislation and to strengthen corporate governance. Thank you very much, Chair. [Applause.]

Ms M M SOTYU: Hon Chair, hon Minister and members of Parliament, I send my greetings to all those kids in the gallery. The ANC strategy and tactics document points out that: “The battle against crime cannot be separated from the war on want.”

The President, in his opening address, put the safety and security of South Africans as a priority in the evolving democratisation of society. We welcome the increase in the Department of Safety and Security’s budget for 2006-07.

The strategic plan of the South African Police Service for 2005 up to 2010 directs strategic and operational planning for the five-year period. This broad five-year plan is informed each year by one-year planning information, which focuses on a few details, that is the strategic priorities, measurable objectives and targets for that year.

As mentioned by the Minister of Safety and Security, this process of the redistribution of skills to the police stations is to correct the past skewed distribution. The new redistribution will see most of the police stations staffed with better skilled, trained and experienced personnel, strengthening the current understaffed personnel, lack of skills and training.

This process is not about demoting high-ranking police officers, but about addressing the problem of lack of management skills at police station level. Members of the Police Service need not be misled by the media and those who think they know better. There is nothing like that.

This exercise has also allowed for the identification of gaps, the development of appropriate skills and retraining of SAPS members, especially those at operational level.

We want to assure members of SAPS that the ANC-led government has no intention of retrenching the police, nor are we demoting them. We cannot afford to lose skilled police officers. However, we desperately need these skills at station level, where crime is happening 24 hours a day. Those who are opposed to the transformation of the police need not be frightened. Sihlalo, le ngxolo ingaka yenziwa ngaba basekunxele kwam -andibhekisi kuwe Baw’ uNdlovu - nabamaphephandaba ngohlengahlengiso phakathi kweli sebe ize ingamtyhafisi uMphathiswa, uMkomishinala uSelebi, uMkomishinala uHlela noSekela-Mkomishinala uSingh, nabanye ookhomishinala abasebenza nabo. Kaloku kwabona aba bangavumelaniyo nolu hlengahlengiso ikwangabo abathi izikhululo zamapolisa azinawo amandla okulwa nezinye iindidi zobundlobongela ngenxa yokungabikho kolwazi lokuphathi kwezinye zezi zikhululo.

Uthe ke, Mphathiswa, xa uzama ukulungisa lo ndonakele yaqala inyakanyaka. Amapolisa mawayeke ukuvuma ukulahlekiswa ngamaphepha nabantu abangena nto yokwenza, abasoloko bebalekela emaphepheni bengenalwazi lupheleleyo, besithi urhulumente kaKhongolozi uza kubalahlela ngaphandle.

Ze bakhumbule kaloku ukuba sathi xa sasilungiselela unyulo lowe-1994 baqhathwa abemi beli ngoo “siyazi”, kwathiwa mababophe imithwalo yabo balifulathele eli kuba kaloku abagrogrisi abayi-ANC baza kubuyisa izitya, kodwa sisahleli nabo apha phakathi nanamhlanje, khange sizibuyise zitya.

Siyazi ukuba utshintsho asinto ilula, yinto ebuhlungu, kodwa ukuba kulo kuza kuxhamlisa wonke ummi woMzantsi Afrika, makube njalo ke; malwenzeke. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)

[Chairperson, this big noise about transformation within the Police Service comes from those sitting on my left and the media - I’m not referring to you, Mr Ndlovu. May the Minister, the Police Commissioner, Mr Selebi, Commissioner Hlela and the Deputy Police Commissioner, Mr Singh and other commissioners involved, not be discouraged. Those people who are against this transformation are the ones who complain about some police stations not having the capacity to combat certain crimes because of their lack of management skills.

The Minister said though that when you start doing damage control, they bring about this confusion. The police must not allow themselves to be manipulated by the media and those people who have nothing to do, who always approach the media with inadequate information, claiming that the ANC-led government will abandon them.

They should remember that before the 1994 elections those “certain individuals” manipulated the citizens of this country by saying they must flee the country because the ANC-terrorists will take revenge. But even today, they are still among us, and the ANC did not avenge themselves. We know that transformation is not easy. It comes with pain and it is good if it benefits all the citizens of South Africa, so let it take its course.]

Chairperson, the fight against crime cannot be the responsibility of the police or government alone. Community involvement is also of vital importance in the prevention of crime. Perpetrators, victims, and witnesses of criminal activities are known to the members of the community. It is, therefore, the responsibility of the community, in partnership with the police, to prevent and expose criminal networks. Communities are encouraged to take an active role in the fight against crime, in co-operation with law enforcement agencies.

This is not an encouragement for communities to take the law into their own hands or to embark on street justice or vigilante activities, but for them to become involved and support their local police stations in anticrime programmes.

Let me commend the police for the good work they do. It is unfortunate that only negative things are being highlighted about them, and we seem to forget that even our very own lives depend on these men and women to whom, in my language, we refer as “Amadelakufa” [Those who do not fear death].

The ANC is opposed to any form of violence, which sacrifices the safety and security of the people of South Africa.

Sihlalo, linyala into yokubulawa kwabantu ngendlela engenalusini, bakhutshwe koololiwe ababalekayo. Akakho umntu onokuthi ephilile engqondweni, athi uyalithanda ilizwe lakhe, kodwa aziphathe ngendlela esibona abantu beziphethe ngayo.

Mphathiswa, ndicinga ukuba kuza kufuneka sikhe siyiphande le nto, kuya kuthi kanti inonyawo lwemfene. Amazwe onke ajonge apha kuthi njengokuba siququzelela indebe yomhlaba yowama-2010. Baza kuthi abantu bamanye amazwe xa bebona into eyenzekayo, abantu bephoselwa ngaphandle koololiwe, bazibuze ukuba ngaba ubomi babo kwakunye notyalo-mali lwabo luya kukhuseleka na kweli lizwe lethu. Ndingathanda ukuthi emapoliseni … (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)

[Chairperson, it is such a disgrace for people to be killed in such a brutal manner – to be thrown out of a moving train. No person with a clear conscience can claim to be patriotic but then conducts himself in such a despicable manner.

Minister, I think we have to investigate this matter; maybe there is something behind this. All the countries are looking at us as we prepare to host the 2010 Soccer World Cup. When people from other countries see our people being thrown from moving trains, they will be concerned about their safety and their investments in this country. I would like to say to the police …]

… well done for the recent arrest of the murderers of the two Cape Town- based artists, and for the arrest of the murderers of the Mbhele girls in Mamelodi, the arrest of crime perpetrators in Gordon’s Bay in less than a week, and that of the murderers of train commuters. We also welcome major drug busts netting drugs valued at hundreds of millions of rands, the arrest of the suspects involved in the Johannesburg International Airport foreign currency heist, and the swift Interpol move in pursuance of the Boeremag escapees. Those are some of the beautiful and good achievements of the police, on which no one ever compliments them. [Applause.]

Mphathiswa, njengokuba ukuba amapolisa esenza lo msebenzi mhle kangaka, masizame siqinisekise ukuba iindawo asebenza kuzo zinomtsalane ukuze bakhuthazeke. [Minister, since the police are doing such a good job, let us try to make sure the police stations are attractive, in order for us to build their morale.]

Chairperson, let me then take this opportunity and thank those Members of Parliament who now and then visit their police stations and come and report to the portfolio committee. [Applause.] Most of the members who visit these police stations are highly impressed by the improvements and the programmes in some of them. [Interjections.] If you want to know, you must visit your own police station.

I will mention some of the police stations that had problems when we visited them in the past two years, but of which Members of Parliament have recently reported that the situation has changed 100%. Amongst these is the Mitchells Plain police station. No one can say to me that Mitchells Plain has not changed, because it has. Another is Cape Town Central, just across the street, but none of you visited that police station because you are not interested. However, those people are the ones who protect your lives.

There have also been changes in the Bloemspruit and Theunissen police stations in the Free State, and the Mamelodi police station in Gauteng, etc. We encourage Members of Parliament to visit police stations so that if there are problems, they can report these to the portfolio committee so that the committee can try and assist those police stations.

Thank you and well done, Comrade Jackie, Comrade Hlela and your team for the good work. Thanks to all those senior and junior members of SAPS who always respond positively to the calls of the portfolio committee. Let me not forget some of our entities, Sita, ICD and the national secretariat, and of course the portfolio committee. Thank you very much for your support, Bab’ uNdlovu. We support the budget. [Applause.]

Mr R JANKIELSOHN: Chairperson, most people in South Africa do not have a platform to state their case to the Minister of Safety and Security. I will speak on their behalf. I would like to start my speech with some comments from hundreds of letters, emails and faxes that the DA receives on crime in South Africa. We, in the DA, believe that the general public should guide our decision on whether or not to support budgets. I submitted a parliamentary question to the Minister of Safety and Security last year regarding a murder. The wife of the victim had the following to say about the unsatisfactory reply:

Die SA Polisiediens se antwoord op my navraag is seker die mees onbevredigende terugvoering denkbaar wat die Minister van Veiligheid en Sekuriteit kon uitdink om aan die naasbestaande van ’n moordslagoffer te gee. Die niksseggende antwoord is nie die papier werd waarop dit gedruk is nie. Die Minister se terugvoering is absoluut betreurenswaardig, om die minste te sê, en die antwoord word verwerp met die minagting wat dit verdien. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[The SA Police Service’s answer to my enquiry is surely the most unsatisfactory feedback imaginable that the Minister of Safety and Security could have thought of giving to a close relative of a murder victim. This meaningless answer is not worth the paper it is written on. The Minister’ s feedback is absolutely deplorable, to say the least, and the answer is rejected with the contempt it deserves.]

The brutality of criminals is expressed in another letter, in which a victim of hijacking states that after being hijacked:

The man, who attacked Mrs T, stole her handbag and bit off her finger on her left hand to steal her diamond ring. After being robbed at gunpoint, a young student wrote the following:

Ever since the incident I have been thinking of getting on a plane never to return. The government is always wondering why all the educated youth are leaving the country. The answer is that because in another country, unlike this one, they will be able to have a future without having to look over their shoulders and worrying when a criminal is going to strike or harm them or their loved ones.

Another person wrote to me about a girl of 15 who was raped by an individual on 4 April 2005, in Soshanguve. The alleged perpetrator was caught by the community and taken to the police. He was released three days later. The writer states that –

On 23 June she was gang raped and again the police at Soshanguve didn’t want to do anything. Her mother had to stop police from another station to get them to react and try and get Soshanguve to do something, which until now did nothing. I do not know the full medical condition, but believe it is very bad.

A concerned parent explained how children and a teacher at a school were held at gunpoint and robbed. The parent states that:

The most concerning factor to arise from the terrible incident was when the children dialled 10111 for help, they were told to come to the police station.

I have files full of such comments from the public. Each one of these comments is a motion of no confidence in this government’s ability to deal effectively with crime in South Africa. On this Minister’s beat, 51 people are murdered and 151 rapes are reported every day in this country. Families are torn apart and lives are destroyed by criminals.

In the last year, in this country, babies and elderly women have been raped and killed in a most brutal fashion. People are thrown off trains, and an elderly man was recently even tortured with boiling water. How many such cases have taken place this year? We don’t know, because the Minister won’t give this country regular updated crime statistics. Who, except the ANC, can support a budget when the department has not met its own targets and without knowing what the reported crime situation in South Africa really looks like?

South Africans have a right to know the type and frequency of crimes committed in their neighbourhoods. Government’s response to crime is silence on crime and statistics, closed briefings on police restructuring that includes the closing down of child protection and other specialised units, and the deployment of the responsible Minister for peacemaking in the Great Lakes region leaving no one in charge of dealing with crime in South Africa.

Very important to our fight against crime is that someone is seen to be in charge of this effort. The Minister needs to prioritise his activities. Victims of crime need to know that their government cares and our police need visible government and active support. It does not help either when a national police commissioner blames his members for every bungle or wastes energy on criticising the Independent Complaints Directorate and even MPs when they carry out their oversight functions.

He needs to be disciplined and kept focused on his job. The government’s primary duty is to protect its citizens from harm. This is the social contract that exists between the government and its citizens. It is however the government that is not carrying out its side of the contract. Citizens have a natural right to protect themselves when the government fails. The problem is that they are paying billions of rands to do so and government continues to tax them for something that it is failing to do. This is no less than fraud.

Individuals and businesses should at least receive a tax rebate for the money spent on private security. People who cannot afford private security often take the law into their own hands by participating in vigilante groups to protect their communities from criminals; this, out of pure frustration. The lack of confidence in government is further illustrated by an Isa Survey that indicated that up to 50% of certain categories of crimes are not even reported.

The state is slowly losing its grip on society with potentially devastating consequences for our democracy, never mind the 2010 Soccer World Cup. Last week my colleague the hon James Selfe told us about the overflowing jails. I am more concerned about the thousands of criminals who are not detected or convicted who continue to prey on society. The certainty of detection and punishment is one of the best deterrents to would-be criminals.

The shortages of personnel and equipment and huge caseloads in the detective services affect their ability to investigate crimes, apprehend criminals and obtain convictions in our courts. Our economic hub, Gauteng, has a 28% vacancy rate in its detective services and 46% in visible policing. This is why the government has failed to meet its own targets of bringing down contact crimes by between 7% and 10% per annum.

The conditions of employment for police officials is also cause for concern. We require a well-motivated, well-paid and professional police service. Every crime scene or accident scene that our police officers deal with leaves a scar on his or her memory. There is currently inadequate psychological support for our police officers. Aspects such as back pay, transfers that exclude family circumstances and racial discrimination in areas such as promotions and even disciplinary hearings is causing many dedicated police officers further stress and many leave the service.

A sergeant in the police writes the following in this regard:

I am a sergeant and I have been up for promotion to inspector since 2001. I have been told that the reason why many others and I cannot be promoted is because there is not enough representation in the service.

Thank you. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Ms A VAN WYK: Dankie, Voorsitter. [Thank you, Chairperson.] Chairperson, hon Minister, hon Deputy Minister, Members of the House, last year the Portfolio Committee on Safety and Security tabled before this House a special report on the Independent Complaints Directorate, ICD. The report followed concerns raised by members of the portfolio committee over a number of years. The report, which was adopted by this House, highlighted serious shortcomings and challenges that face the ICD. Some very specific recommendations to improve the operations of the ICD were also made.

Die rede hoekom die komitee die verslag ter tafel gelê het, is dat ons – spesifiek dié van ons in die ANC – glo dat die Onafhanklike Klagtedirektoraat, OKD, ʼn deurlopende belangrike rol in die uitvoering van die transformasie-agenda van die ANC speel. Die verslag het tot die slotsom gekom dat die OKD se kernfunksies nie ten volle suksesvol uitgevoer word nie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[The reason why the committee tabled the report was that we – particularly those of us in the ANC – believed that the Independent Complaints Directorate, ICD, plays an ongoing and important role in the execution of the transformation agenda of the ANC. The report concluded that the ICD’s core functions have not been successfully executed.]

The report strongly indicated that the capacity of the ICD at provincial level needed to be improved. We are grateful that the Minister in his restructuring of the ICD took this point on board and now he intends to establish satellite offices in most of the policing areas. The establishment of satellite offices will only be fully realised in the 2007- 08 financial year.

Furthermore, investigative capacity will be made accessible to the provinces and the national office will be transformed into an administrative support in the execution of the duties of the ICD. This, we believe, will go a long way in addressing the case backlogs in the investigation and improve the accessibility of the ICD to a greater part of the population. National Treasury expressed concern over the ICD’s inability to fill vacancies in its establishment. This has also been a concern raised by the committee in its report. The ICD itself continuously identifies insufficient capacity as its biggest challenge. A shortage of investigators is stated as the main reason for the huge backlog in the finalisation of cases.

Over the past few years the ICD budget increased on average by 13,78% per annum. This is far above the inflation rate, yet compensation over the past years consistently reflects underexpenditure and in some instances was even used for capital expenditure. With the assistance of the Treasury and the Department of Public Service and Administration, a career pathing strategy for investigators will be put in place to address this problem. The committee will follow developments with keen interest and expects to report an improvement in this regard next year.

Die OKD het nie sy meetbare doelwitte en finalisering van sake bereik nie. Verlede jaar het die komitee aangedui dat die doelwitte na ons mening onrealisties is en aangepas behoort te word. Dit is nou gedoen en die OKD het die komitee verseker dat met ekstra mannekrag die agterstand in die finalisering van sake binne die volgende twee jaar ingehaal gaan word. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[The ICD has not achieved its measurable objectives and finalisation of cases. Last year the committee indicated that the objectives were unrealistic in our opinion and that they should be amended. This has been done now, and the ICD has assured the committee that with extra manpower the backlog regarding the finalisation of cases could be eliminated within the next two years.]

The ICD awards a huge number of bursaries per year with very few of its employees successfully completing their studies. While we encourage further studies, we believe that these studies should not take the place of training within the ICD and we would request that more thorough screening of bursary candidates be done and that the internal training of the ICD be improved. A lot can be achieved through skills development of the existing staff.

The ICD did indicate to members that they were experiencing problems in terms of co-operation from the side of the SAPS in terms of the implementation of the Domestic Violence Act. The ICD indicated that it had taken the matter up with the area and provincial officers of the SAPS, but that co-operation was still lacking. It is not clear to the committee why they did not take up the issue with the national office of the SAPS, as we know that violence against women and children is a priority for the SAPS, and we are sure that they will receive the necessary support from the National Commissioner and his management team. The ICD is encouraged to take that route and the committee also undertakes to assist where possible. For the first time in many years the ICD tabled some of its mandatory reports in Parliament. This in itself is already a great improvement. Two further reports that were undertaken by the ICD were also tabled; one dealing with factors relating to backlogs in cases and the other with the complainants’ level of satisfaction.

The report on the complainants’ level of satisfaction further vindicated the committee’s report to Parliament last year. Seventy per cent of complainants indicated that they were not satisfied with the services of the ICD. What is most interesting about the research is neither the satisfaction nor the dissatisfaction of complainants, but rather the profile of complainants.

Seventy-two per cent of the complainants interviewed were men, and only 28% female. Eighty-four per cent of the complainants come from urban areas. Minister, this is a clear indication that accessibility to the ICD still remains a problem and that the decision you took to open satellite offices in the policing areas is the correct one.

The ICD needs to be congratulated though for the courage that they showed by conducting this research and for putting in place the necessary corrective measures. It is after all women who suffer and who need the assistance of the ICD.

Chairperson, allow me to touch on the Secretariat for a moment. We welcome the restructuring of the Secretariat by the Minister and especially the fact that they are now within his office. This is where we believe they belong and where they can play an important advisory role. We would also like to urge the Secretariat and the ICD to meet and to sort out how best they can assist one another in the fulfilment of their duties. We believe that the ICD can provide some valuable information to the Secretariat, which can inform their policy suggestions that they made to the Minister.

There can be no doubt that the Police Service of today is more credible and acceptable to the majority of the community than they were in 1994. But exactly because of that, it can be said that issues of service delivery and police performance are now more prominent than they were 12 years ago. Therefore, in order for the SAPS to maintain and further improve its legitimacy, the ICD needs to fulfil its role as set out.

Police accountability, notwithstanding the achievements and the reforms already achieved, should remain a priority. The success of the SAPS strategy is very strongly based on community involvement through community police forums and in-sector policing. In order for any police service anywhere in the world to receive that necessary co-operation, that police service needs to be perceived as credible and legitimate.

Accountability to the state, including Parliament, the constitutionally created bodies such as the ICD, the Public Protector and other Chapter 9 institutions, as well as the internal mechanisms of the SAPS dealing with discipline, evaluation and performance, and the broader civil society such as the media and communities at large, all play an important role in the oversight of the SAPS. The success and the way in which it is done is an important indicator of the political and social order of a state.

In fact, there is an increasing trend within international communities to establish independent police oversight bodies - this is in policing agencies far more established than our own. Two examples that I would like to raise here is that of the Police Integrity Commission, PIC, of Australia, New South Wales, and the independent Police Complaint Commission, PCC, in England and Wales.

The PIC of Australia was established in 1996 to detect, investigate and prevent serious police misconduct. While the police service retains first responsibility for investigating most complaints, the PIC oversee these investigations, can institute their own investigations or joint investigations or even refer cases back to the police for further investigation.

In England and Wales the PCC became operational in April 2004. The commission is responsible for assisting the public to make a complaint, keep the complainant informed about progress, make sure that the police handle it with a high standard of competence and themselves investigate the most serious cases, using their own investigators.

Over and above this the PCC can supervise or direct investigations by the police and approve the police’s choice of investigator. The police must comply with its findings on appeal matters, including taking disciplinary measures if instructed. Furthermore, the commission can issue statutory guidance and set standards for the police on how to handle complaints.

There should thus not be any doubt in the mind of any person or body over the need for and existence of the ICD. Rather, we would suggest that it be considered yet another tool towards the overall effective management of the SAPS. For is it not true that every corrupt police officer exposed and removed from the system, no matter by whom, improves the service delivery and the credibility of the total police service?

The ICD has had a rough time since this very committee subjected it to a lot of pressure. We hope that they now understand that the reason for that is not one of undermining their work, but rather because we would like to see them fulfil their task in a much-improved manner. We will become their biggest ally, along with the National Treasury, but we need them to demonstrate to us in no uncertain terms a commitment to the important role they have to play within our country. Chairperson, I still have a few minutes left and I would like to use them just to respond to the hon Jankielsohn.

Ek vind dit ongelooflik arrogant dat ʼn mens kan opstaan, agt minute op ʼn podium deurbring en nie een positiewe bydrae in daardie agt minute lewer nie. Hulle sê goeie leierskap is om namens jouself te praat en nie namens ander nie. Dit is maklik om op ʼn emosionele en sensasionele wyse debat te voer as jy niks het om by te dra nie.

Ek wil graag weet, en ek daag enigiemand uit om vir my een sin te wys in dié lid se bydrae wat positiewe kommentaar is, wat sê, Minister, ek stel voor pleks van om dit te doen, doen die volgende”. Daar was nie een sin daarin wat dit gedoen het nie. Inteendeel, dit het by tye vir my geklink of ek na ʼn klankbaan van die Daily Voice of Son luister. Dit is ʼn sensasionele geplunder van wat in werklikheid ʼn realiteit vir mense op die grondvlak is. Ons stel belang om daardie probleem aan te pak. Indien jy ernstig is daaroor, sal jy óók kom met voorstelle oor hoe dit gedoen kan word. [Applous.]

Ek wil dit onomwonde stel dat die agb lid die Huis mislei het, aangesien ek nie die woord “leuen” mag gebruik nie. Die Kinderbeskermingseenheid word nie toegemaak nie. [Tussenwerpsels.] Die Kinderbeskermingseenheid se lede word na die plaaslike polisiekantore afgewentel, sodat hulle dáár kan wees waar die misdade plaasvind, sodat hulle vinniger en doeltreffender kan optree téén die misdadigers wat ons kinders te na kom.

Minister, die lid praat van die land wat nie vertroue het in u leierskap en in die ANC as regering nie. Sy geheue is kort; 2004 se verkiesingsuitslae strek net twee jaar terug en die plaaslike regeringverkiesingsuitslae is selfs nog meer onlangs en na my mening is dít die geleentheid wanneer die publiek die kans het om te sê: “Ek vertrou julle nie meer om my lewe veilig te hou nie.”

Ek wil graag afsluit deur te sê dat die ANC onomwonde die veiligheid van ons mense eerste stel en alles sal doen om seker te maak dat dit gebeur. Dankie. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[I find it unbelievably arrogant that someone can stand up, spend eight minutes on the podium and not make one positive contribution in those eight minutes. They say good leadership is speaking on one’s own behalf and not on behalf of others. It is easy to debate in an emotional and sensational manner when one has nothing to contribute.

I would like to know, and I challenge anyone to show me one sentence in this member’s contribution where there is positive commentary or that says, “Minister, I propose that instead of that, the following should be done”. There was not one sentence in there to that effect. On the contrary, on occasion it sounded to me as if I were listening to a soundtrack of the Daily Voice or the Son. This is sensational plundering of what is in reality happening to the people at grassroots level. We are interested in tackling that problem. If you were serious about it, you would also come up with proposals about how it can be done. [Applause.]

I want to state unequivocally that the hon member has misled the House, since I may not use the word “lie”. The Child Protection Unit will not be closed. [Interjections.] The Child Protection Unit’s members will be devolved to the local police stations, so that they can be there where the crimes happen, so that they can act more quickly and more efficiently against the criminals who transgress against our children.

Minister, the member said the country has no confidence in your leadership and in the ANC as government. He has a short memory; we had the election results of 2004 just two years ago and the local government results are even more recent, and in my opinion this is when the public has the opportunity to say: “I do not trust you any longer to safeguard my life.”

I would like to conclude by saying unequivocally that the ANC puts the lives of our people first and will do everything to ensure that it happens. Thank you. [Applause.]]

Mr V B NDLOVU: Sihlalo neNdlu ehloniphekile, mhlonishwa nePhini lakho nabahlonishwa bonke abakhona … [Chairperson and the honourable House, hon Minister and your Deputy and all hon members present …]

… this year we have observed that the budget allocated for Safety and Security is higher than usual. Big allocations are always absorbed by the administration and includes salaries for the personnel. It is therefore encouraging that members of the police will now get better salaries than before. This of course is an incentive for them to provide the public with much-needed improvement in service delivery.

Still on the issue of service delivery, I would like to congratulate the police on two cases, which as far as I am concerned, were well managed: The quick arrest of the murderers of Judge Ngoepe’s Granddaughter and the crowd control outside the Jacob Zuma trial. This is what the public needs to see more often, and it is highly appreciated.

However, I am worried about the high-profile cases. These appear to get to court sooner than expected, yet other cases never see the court door. A case is a case, mhlonishwa [the hon member], no matter who is involved. The arrest of the child killers here in the Western Cape was noted but the police still have to do much more because the abduction and murdering of children is proving to be a big problem, and this is totally unacceptable.

Again the department has adopted federal thinking by devolving powers of the police to the station commissioners. I must congratulate them for listening to the IFP policy, mhlonishwa, [the hon member] of devolution of powers to the local level. Debating this matter was long overdue, and the whole safety and security portfolio has agreed with me. Ngiyabonga, Sihlalo. [Thank you, Chairperson.]

Members of the police must not be afraid because we are not implementing resolution surveys but devolving the powers to the station commissioners. All specialised personnel will be accommodated at local levels where they are needed most.

The increasing employment of the police and detective service is welcomed because the department has reduced the burden of detectives carrying 150 dockets each. This stress results in many of our policemen and women committing suicide. The department must employ more psychologists to service a large number of police who need it.

It must also be seen that police stations around the country improve their environment where victims, particularly those of rape and child abuse, feel comfortable, secure and more accommodated when they report their ordeals. The department must deal with corrupt officials in order to clean the department’s standing. Corrupt police are not wanted in the service. The quicker the disciplinary measures are implemented, the better.

In conclusion, mhlonishwa, nawe sihlalo [the hon member and Chairperson], the comment by the national Commissioner on the incorporation of the Scorpions into the police and maintaining of the same department was unfortunate. That was the Kampepe commission.

The national Commissioner’s comment about the Independent Complaints Directorate in the NCOP was also unfortunate. This comment ties up with the article in the Mail & Guardian about the national Commissioner having links to the late Brett Kebble, and is very disconcerting.

I am not sure whether the article is true or not. However, I stand to be corrected by the national Commissioner himself, not his deputation, led by Mr Hlela. This case is a serious one, and we are still waiting for the arrest of the killers of Mr Kebble.

The revamped ICD should open satellite police offices in rural areas. This is a much-needed service in these areas. The employment of more detectives as heads of offices to investigate cases should be completed soon. At metro level, the investigation of Metro police action must be increased to ensure that Metro police are not involved in crime. I urge the ICD to be independent, not to rely on the police while investigating them. The department must look at amending the Act in order for the ICD to take decisions and implement it themselves, and not to rely on the police to implement the ICD decisions.

I applaud the decision of the National Commissioner for the KwaZulu-Natal inquiry into the police. I hope our province will now know where their powers end.

Akufanele bagagamele ezintweni ezingaqondene nabo. Hlehla bheseni, akukaphakwa. [Uhleko.] [They must not exaggerate things that do not concern them. Just wait a bit.] [Interjections.]]

Let us reduce crime, Mr Minister. Let us make sure that South Africa is safe. Let us be prepared for 2010, physically and psychologically. I thank you.

Ngiyabonga, Sihlalo. Cha, angibonge. Ngisheshe ngaqeda isikhathi singakapheli, Sihlalo. [Ihlombe.] [Thank you, Chairperson. Thank you. I have finished before time, Chairperson.] [Applause.]]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Chairperson, Minister, chairperson of the portfolio committee, members of the portfolio committee, Members of Parliament, commissioners present here with us, senior managers and all visitors, today there are young people who have come to this House. They are our special invitees and have been invited by the Minister of Safety and Security, in keeping with our programme in celebrating the 30th anniversary of the Soweto uprisings.

All these young people come from the nine provinces. We have Siphosethu Ndalase from Eastern Cape, Sonia Molautse from Gauteng – can they stand up as I call their names. Then there is Mamelo Octavia Makgatha from Free State, Albertina Cheou from Limpopo, Esther Matsege from North West, Unathi Dyani from Western Cape, Mary Nokukhanya Hlangu from KwaZulu-Natal, Siphiwe Skhosana from Mpumalanga and Grace Kokore from Northern Cape. [Applause.] These are our young people who are indeed our aspirants and our future leaders. Thank you very much. You can sit down.

Four of the girls, Siphiwe, Nokukhanya, Grace and Unathi participated in the drafting my speech and were also part of the editorial team that “cleaned” my speech, which I am reading to you today. It is indeed a reflection of the potential that our young people do have.

I also want to acknowledge our most important young people and I want to thank the police officers that were involved in this project. We have 66 children who are accompanied by their families. These children have been integrated with their families. May I ask the families and the young people who are present here with us to stand up. [Applause.] Thank you very much.

I am going to relate the stories of all these young people, which I think are important to all of us, and indicate that it is possible for all of us in this House and the community at large to play a critical role in making sure that our children are part of us and live with us. These young people were referred to as “kids living in the streets”. I always refuse to refer to them as “street children” because I believe that there is no street which bears a child. Children are born out of a man and woman. Therefore no street has a child.

I would once more want to say that I dedicate this budget speech to the youth of ’76 and also to these children who are with us today. To all our youth in South Africa, we are celebrating the 30th anniversary of the Soweto uprising. It was 1976 when we … I am saying “we” because I am part of that youth and I am proud to be part of that youth and be counted with the class of ’76. That is the youth which bravely resisted the oppressive yoke of apartheid in general and the inferior education in particular. We pride ourselves for the sterling contribution to our democracy and freedom.

Regarding the hon Jankielsohn, who stood in front of us today and said he represents the people of South Africa, I want to know which ones. As I stand here, as a youth of ’76, the vision and the hope of South African people lies with me. It’s in me, it flows in my bloodstream. [Interjections.] I say I don’t know what it means.

An HON MEMBER: You have never been hijacked.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: I don’t think, for me, it’s about being hijacked. You were hijacked because you lived in this country behind high walls. You were never part of us during the apartheid era, when our people were killed every weekend and your police and your system did not respond to the black people of this country. [Interjections.]

I must indicate I am proud to be a South African. I can stand against crime in this country and fight against it because I know how it is. My parents used to be victims of mugging. Your police were never there. We are proud to have transformed … [Interjections.] You can’t tell me anything. You lived and enjoyed your education.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): Order! Deputy Minister, please take your seat. [Interjections.] Order, order, hon members! Please proceed hon Deputy Minister.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Thank you, Chair. That’s the pain of reality. Secondly, I would also like to honour the women who braved the cold and all the weather conditions in 1956 and marched to the Union Buildings. I am proud today to celebrate with those women the 50th anniversary of the time they stood up and said, “enough is enough” and ensured that we are able to enjoy the democracy which we see today.

We are able to enjoy democracy together with everyone because those women were never selfish. They made sure they fought for everyone, even for those who were oppressing us. They made sure that slavery in this country came to an end. They boldly said: No more oppression; no more slavery in our country. We need to honour those women and we need to honour the women who fought for us as the current generation.

Our policies and strategies continue to focus on crime as part of government’s agenda to provide a better life for all. Social crime prevention becomes the focal point for the creation of a crime-free environment in law-enforcement and policing. The context in which the youth programme is currently being run needs to be reviewed in order to include partnerships with police stations and sector policing. The role of the station commissioners in co-ordinating cross-cutting matters regarding schools within their precinct need to be strengthened. We need also to welcome your bold step, Minister, in restructuring and taking the police service to the people.

We need to appreciate the Business Against Crime for their continuous support through the implementation of Tiisa Thuto in order to address safety matters in the schools. This enhances our partnership with the Department of Education on an ongoing basis. An illustration of this is that, recently, a successful drug reduction programme in schools was launched in Gauteng and the Western Cape with the assistance of Tiisa Thuto.

Recently a three-year-old boy disappeared in Wallacedene whilst in the company of his uncle. The little boy was not found for days and his mother appealed to the communities to help her find her son. The boy was found days later in a children’s home in another area. He had been found wandering in the streets.

A similar incident occurred in the Free State where a two-year-old girl from a farm outside Bloemfontein disappeared without a trace. The little girl disappeared after she had been left with her siblings in the care of neighbours. Her parents had gone to look for wood. The little girl has not been found. It’s a challenge that is not only facing the police; it’s a challenge for all of us as different members of the communities. We cannot continue to condemn when we don’t have any action and contribution to make towards changing these ills.

These two incidents are just the tip of the iceberg of the challenges of missing children handled by police daily throughout the provinces. In the Western Cape, we have formed a child rapid response unit, which has a high recovery and success rate. It shows partnerships with communities do work and can be possible. The fact that the child in Wallacedene was found unharmed is the proof of the turnaround strategy we have piloted and implemented, with regard to dealing with missing children.

The Western Cape has a child rapid response programme which works hand-in- glove with Bambanani volunteers in the efforts to deal with issues of missing children. This has resulted in huge success regarding missing children who were found. The children’s programme was launched in July 2004, following the concerns that the situation of children living and working in the streets renders them vulnerable to involvement in crime, either as victims or offenders.

Workshops on homeless children and provincial capacity were held by SAPS. These workshops were aimed at providing the members and other stakeholders with skills to deal with children living on the streets. The social crime prevention component is in the process of developing a policy and guidelines for SAPS with regard to children living in the streets.

Despite the effort that I have indicated, I must mention that we continue to review our means of addressing matters concerning children living on the streets in order to forge partnerships with other relevant structures. Shelters for children living on the streets continue to be a challenge to government and communities.

The Safety and Security Ministry has participated in the Inter-Sectoral Child Justice Committee with the view of addressing the challenges faced by the police in ensuring their constitutional and legal obligation to limit children kept within police custody.

We tabled a report on the situation of children being kept in custody in Mpumalanga, Limpopo and the North West. I am happy to announce that in the report there is a reflection that the integrated justice system is starting to yield results.

As we are gathered here today, we are in the process of reviewing and continuing to see whether the training on domestic violence is indeed effective and efficient. A domestic violence training package has been compiled and we hope that this will form part of the commitment in improving service delivery and also making sure that we nurture and improve our own understanding in the police service.

We need to render a quality service to victims of domestic violence and continue to improve in a concerted, integrated multidisciplinary and preventative way. The SAPS continues to participate in the interdepartmental management team for the antirape strategic framework. This framework focuses on prevention, the criminal justice process and support to victims. Although the prevention and the process will be conducted and focused mainly with an intention of prevention, the component will also co-ordinate the implementation of the responsibilities of the SAPS in terms of the approved strategic framework.

One of the key achievements in Gauteng was the launch of the women’s centre at Orange Farm during May 2005. The centre provides for preventative advisory services and victim services to be provided for in an integrated fashion.

Last year during the women’s month, the antirape strategy was implemented in different provinces. The continuous intervention of social crime prevention at station level enables a better understanding and implementation of the antirape strategy.

Part of the preventative action includes a review session on the antirape strategy, public awareness campaigns on rape and sexual offences and workshops with regard to abuse aimed at improving service delivery. We will continue to work with other departments and communities in order to improve services to victims of rape and engage in preventative actions.

I also want to indicate that we have increased our victim facility centres at various stations and we are happy to say that that has yielded results. But one of the key issues is that we want to establish uniform standards that would ensure all the victim-friendly facilities at various stations are safe and acceptable to the victims themselves.

I want to touch on one of the critical issues, the issue of drug and substance abuse. The challenge for all of us is the people who take alcohol and then drug abuse comes up often and remains a thorny and contributing factor to contact crimes and violent crimes in our country. This problem manifests itself in many ways.

We also want to revisit the legalisation of taverns and shebeens, which continue to pose a threat to our communities and schools, and contribute to contact crimes and domestic violence. Hence, we believe a partnership with the Department of Health, given that they have passed a law which regulates smoking, will assist us.

The big challenge for some of our children is that they begin to experiment with smoking especially when they witness their own parents and elderly smoke, and then they think it is cool! The experimenting leads later to much stronger drugs and, indeed, without realising, they end up being addicted to the drugs.

We want to make sure that all this is addressed in a way that improves and touches the soul of our communities. We need to declare war against drug peddlers and drug lords, who continuously destroy the soul of our communities and destroy our children as future parents and leaders. It is therefore imperative that local authorities must also exercise their duties in enforcement of their by-laws in their entertainment places and leisure industry. We can no longer afford to sit back and see the moral fibre of our society and communities going down. We need to act against crime. I must indicate that as the police we have adopted the Act Against Crime Together campaign, because we believe that any form of crime and any form of abuse needs the partnerships from all of us.

We are more mindful of the need for an intensive and extensive communication and awareness programme with regard to social crime prevention, focusing on our members and the community. The Act Against Crime Together campaign will be extended to other provinces.

We need to increase public awareness about the safeguarding of our children, but also the responsibility of parents especially during the Child Protection Week, Youth Month and, indeed, throughout the year by focusing attention on crimes in selected areas where some have been identified as hot spots.

Another major goal for us is to strengthen partnerships between the public and law enforcement agencies in ensuring a safe and secure environment. We would be more satisfied if no other messages imprinted themselves on the memories and hearts of communities than the following:

We can no longer afford to have our children living in the streets. We can no longer tolerate not responding when crimes are committed against our children and women.

Therefore, there is a need to hasten and make sure that through our efforts, in an integrated way, we are able to implement the restorative justice system so as to make sure that our children don’t turn into criminals later.

We are proud to indicate that last year we ran a campaign, which addressed the abuse of women in our country. That operation was termed Operation Basadi during the 16 Days of Activism, which coincided with the United Nations’ No Violence Against Women campaign. I am proud to announce that the operation was successful, but also to indicate that this is the operation, that led to the arrest of a person in the Western Cape, who happened to have raped someone 20 years ago and was, indeed, arrested when he thought everything was gone.

To the members, rest assured, we need to indicate, you can run but you cannot hide from the law. The long arm of the law will catch up with you. We want also to declare and confirm that as women, through Operation Basadi, which is going to be rolled out nationally, we will make sure that all perpetrators of violence against women are being sent to jail and incarcerated because we don’t want those individuals within our communities. Our operation as the JPCS cluster is a way of making sure that the partnerships protect women. This programme will not be left lying in the files also collecting dust. We will ensure that they are able to be unpacked and implemented in the way that meets our needs as a country.

As for the 66 children, may I indicate to everyone in this House, that these are children who were referred to as street or homeless children. We are proud to say, as the Department of Safety and Security, that these children have been reintegrated with their families; but not only that, we have succeeded as the police to make sure that they go back to school. [Applause.]

The success of this project in the Western Cape shows that it is possible. The police are committed to removing all the children from the streets, but what is very important is that we want to ask everybody today to partner with the police in identifying those children and being able to reunite them with their families. Today, while it is cold in Cape Town, those children are warm. They are guaranteed their supper and to laugh again and enjoy the cuddling of their mothers, fathers, sisters and brothers. [Applause.]

I need to indicate that because of the stress faced by our members because of the complexities that we face in this country, we intend to revisit the Employee Assistance service programme. We know that our Employee Assistance Programme indeed enjoys a high-priority focus because it is a proactive and reactive measure for our members.

Our programme intends to enhance members’ wellbeing while the reactive programme serves members who need emotional support. The programme also provides telephonic counselling services. We are going to review all the services rendered to our members. I want to indicate that ubaba Ndlovu is correct. We are addressing this matter. One of the critical issues is to see to what extent we can make sure that the members at the station level, who are at the forefront of fighting crime. indeed are attended to before they become stressed and depressed, and at the end of the day we end up with those who are no longer in our country because of the stresses which we are facing.

We will be able to come back next year with a programme, which is positive and acknowledges these things. But it will also improve the service in such a way that the families of those individuals will continue, like all of us, to have parents; wives can have husbands; children can have fathers, as all of us, brothers, sisters and uncles, without losing them during the process of the jobs. [Applause.]

Mnu G T MADIKIZA: Sihlalo, baPhathiswa abahloniphekileyo, malungu ale Ndlu ahloniphekileyo kunye neendwendwe zonke, mandinduluke ngokuqala ndithi i- UDM iyalwamkela uhlahlo lwabiwo-mali lweli sebe. Ndingaba ndisilele ukuba andingedluli ndibulele, ndincome umsebenzi omkhulu nomhle kangaka owenziwa ngamapolisa kweli loMzantsi Afrika. UMphathiswa uthe gqaba-gqaba ngezigaba zotshintsho; nazo mandizincome ngoba ziyathembisa. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)

[Mr G T MADIKIZA: Chairperson, hon Ministers, hon members of this House and our guests at large, firstly, I would like to say that the UDM supports this department’s Budget Vote. I would be failing in my personal capacity if I cannot commend the wonderful job being done by the police in South Africa. The Minister has highlighted some changes which I also appreciate because they are promising.]

A total of R 32,5 billion is a very large budget indeed. It reflects the vast safety and security challenges that we as a country are facing. That amount seems so large in comparison to the budgets for most of the other departments. One thus, therefore, expects an overwhelming indication of service delivery in terms of safety and security. But the problem is that somewhere between the large national budget and the reality at station level something goes wrong. Can we blame an inadequate budget or should we perhaps blame individual officers of the South African Police Service? I believe that neither of these propositions is correct; the problem must lie somewhere else.

If we take the R32,5 billion and we cannot ensure that every police station is functioning with the proper levels of basic equipment such as vehicles and bulletproof vests, then there is a very big management problem. How can we expect delivery from ill-equipped and overworked police officers? The evidence of how this affects individuals and station morale is reflected in the intolerably high rate of suicides, family murders and other violent incidents involving members of the SAPS. [Interjections.] [Time expired.] Thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]

Mr M S MOATSHE: Chairperson, hon Minister, hon Deputy Minister, members of the South African Police Service, comrades and friends, the governing principles in the Constitution, Chapter 11, section 198(a) states that -

National security must reflect the resolve of South Africans, as individuals and as a nation, to live as equals, to live in peace and harmony, to be free from fear and want and to seek a better life.

Section 205(3) of the Constitution further outlines that –

The objects of the police service are to prevent, combat and investigate crime, to maintain public order, to protect and secure the inhabitants of the Republic and their property, and to uphold and enforce the law. Surely, all South Africans must celebrate the Constitution on its 10th anniversary with pride.

To ensure the realisation of these principles, the police must be capacitated and resourced to meet the challenges of transformation throughout the country. In line with these challenges, the portfolio committee as the driving component in this process developed and launched the station-monitoring tool to improve oversight of police stations. This station-monitoring tool takes the form of a questionnaire that covers a range of issues and includes questions relating to the infrastructure and material resources of the station, staffing, the work of the detectives, the relationship with the community and training on various aspects within the station.

We view this monitoring tool as a mirror for the portfolio committee, Parliament, the police and the safety and security services in general to look at and reflect on service delivery to better the lives of all South Africans. We urge Members of Parliament, including those in provinces, to use this tool in their constituencies whenever visiting police stations.

Sediriswa se sa tlhokomediso diteišheneng tsa mapodisa, se akaretsa go bona diphetogo di obamelwa, di tlhaloganngwa e bile di dirafadiwa. Go lebilwe diphetogo di tshwana le tekatekano mo tirong go se kgetololo go ya ka bong le fa e le go ya ka mmala jaaka e le maikaelelo a puso. Ka nako ya kgetololo, tlhaolele, mapodisa a ne a katisiwa ka mokgwa wa mogwanto le tshidilo ya mmele, thuto kgolo ya bona e le go tshwara e seng go tlisa kagiso le tshireletso. Makgowa a ne a tlhatlhosiwa go nna bo kapotene, sajene, majoro sajene, lefotenente, borikadiri, fa ma Aforika a tlhago a ne a felela mo bo sajeneng. Puso e e eteletsweng pele ke mokgatlo wa ANC e tlisitse diphetogo ka go aga sepodisa se le sengwe, se katisiwa ka mokgwa o le mongwe o o tswanang. (Translation of Setswana paragraphs follows.)

[The purpose of the campaign with regard to this monitoring tool at police stations is to ensure that transformation is embraced, understood and implemented. The changes that are expected as part of government policies include, among other things, employment equity, gender equity and, last but not least, racial discrimination.

During the apartheid era police officers were given physical training whereby they only performed marching exercises, which was the main feature of their training course. Another focus was on how to teach them to make an arrest. Peace and security were not the main concerns of their training course. In the past, whites were promoted to the rank of captain, major- general, lieutenant and brigadier, while indigenous Africans were only confined to the rank of sergeant. The ANC-led government has transformed the police service into a nonracial service, which uses one common training method.]

Key areas for training are problem-oriented policing and a focus on human rights. The training methodology seeks to build competencies and consists of lectures, case studies, role-playing, simulations and group work focusing on training for reality. All learning programmes are needs-based and are being aligned to unit standards leading through credit accumulation to qualification on the national qualification framework.

In terms of the Domestic Violence Act, every police station must have a domestic violence register detailing all domestic violence incidents that are reported at the station. The police station is also required to compile a list of organisations that can offer counselling and other support services to complainants of domestic violence.

During 2005, 273 complaints were received against police officials allegedly not complying with their duties in terms of the Act. In most of these cases disciplinary action was taken against members. In the rest of the cases the Independent Complaints Directorate, ICD, instructed that no disciplinary action must be taken. To reduce these case loads, more members need to be trained - hence the support of this budget by the ANC.

A total of 227 victim-friendly facilities have been established at some police stations. SAPS aim to establish an additional 150 new facilities by this financial year – hence the support of the ANC for this budget.

In a new upgraded police station, provisions are made for private facilities where victims can provide statements and access information. Many of these facilities still need furniture, equipment and transport for those who will need to be transported to hospitals, clinics or other places of safety.

The SAPS victim support programme has been reviewed to ensure that SAPS training and guidelines support the victims’ charter of rights.

The youth crime prevention and development programme that defines SAPS roles and responsibilities has been developed and it is linked to the training of SAPS members to deal with child offenders and youth crime prevention.

Some 1 771 commanders and trainers are trained to train remaining members on the Department of Veterans Affairs, DVA, implementation. Since 2000, training on domestic violence forms an integral part of the basic training programme for new recruits.

During 2005-06, 11 000 new recruits underwent the basic training on domestic violence. Seventy per cent of all members attached to the family violence, child protection and sexual offences units completed specialised training including handling and investigating cases involving domestic violence. Twenty-four trainers from nine provinces have been trained in 2005 on how to present a course and will therefore present training throughout the country. Some 1 568 members were trained on the handling of domestic violence incidents during specialised courses in 2005.

In conclusion, allow me to congratulate the super-cop of the Elite Free Falling Squad, Captain Thandeka Majola, who became the first policewoman to excel in free-fall parachuting. She is now a member of the counterassault team subsidiary of the SAPS protection and security services division. Captain Thandeka Majola is the first member of the SAPS and the South African National Defence Force to have successfully completed the basic free-fall course with the world-renowned 44 Brigade of the SANDF. The ANC supports the budget. Thank you. [Applause.]

Rev K R J MESHOE: Chairperson, as we are debating the safety and security Budget Vote this afternoon, a nine-year-old girl is in a coma, fighting for her life after being raped and brutalised to the extent that a hysterectomy was being considered at one stage.

On the SABC 3 news bulletin of 30 May, it was stated that the affected community has lost its confidence in the police as far as the protection of their children is concerned. It is a crime against humanity to target defenceless children, sexually violate them and rob them of their innocence. While some are blaming parents for crimes committed against their children, it is nevertheless the responsibility of the police to keep our communities safe and to teach criminals that crime does not pay.

If it had not been for a recent meeting that I had with Commissioner Jackie Selebi, where he presented me with an enlightening account of the difficulties and constraints, which the police are facing on a daily basis, then we would have voted against this budget to register the ACDPs’ protest, disapproval and unhappiness about the failure of the police to make our streets, communities and trains safer.

It is because of this understanding and sympathy that we have decided to encourage the committed, loyal and hard-working members of the police by voting for this budget. The ACDP’s plea to the hon Minister is to continually help the police with their investigative skills and abilities to ensure that their cases obtain convictions.

Amongst those whose convictions we want to see, are the cruel thugs who threw passengers out of moving trains and those who this week hanged a security guard on a tree in Germiston for choosing to exercise his constitutional right to work while others chose not to work.

The hon Minister must ensure that only the most efficient and capable police investigate these heinous crimes to enable judges to convict and impose the harshest sentences possible – sentences that will send a clear message to would-be criminals that such acts will not be tolerated in this country. I thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]

Mr S MAHOTE: Chairperson, hon Minister and Deputy Minister for Safety and Security, hon members, officials of the Department of Safety and Security, invited guests, this Budget Vote before us in this august House today comes against the background of intense clamouring for both human and material resources, immense scrutiny by stakeholders within the safety and security sector, and the customary hysteria of the opposition, particularly the DA, as to how our ANC-led government should ensure the safety and security of all and sundry in South Africa.

At the same time, our populace is not spared any respite by a media that is consumed by the fallacious notion that crime sells. As a government elected by the overwhelming majority of the people and - this is where we have to make a distinction - the majority who had historically borne the brunt of social crimes because of apartheid and social engineering, we are morally obliged to be sensitive to their concerns, but in a truthful manner.

Moreover, in recent weeks a dangerous phenomenon has taken root within the ranks of those on my left here, who, through their propaganda machinery, have created a psychosis of fear in the minds of our citizens. Quite frankly, this is indeed very dangerous.

Allow me to elucidate a few things here today. Firstly and most importantly, President Thabo Mbeki has, in his state of the nation address on 3 February 2006, underscored once again the critical importance of the safety and security of all South Africans. In this regard he mentioned, in particular, the challenges in relation to social crime prevention measures.

To give further credence to government’s commitment, the President alluded to other measures, that is, integrated law enforcement in priority areas such as drug trafficking and substance abuse. Yes, Chairperson, suffice to say that as a member of the Safety and Security Portfolio Committee, I align myself with the measures and objectives articulated by the hon Minister Nqakula in his opening address here today.

Allow me to focus on the strategies the SA Police Service has adopted and implemented to ensure that our people, firstly develop and understanding of crime and its causes, and secondly, to allow our communities a meaningful role in crime prevention. Obviously, at the heart of these initiatives is the vexing question of delivery. Everyone present here today will agree that crime permeates all strata of society, hence the need for concerted programmes.

One such programme is sector policing, which was introduced in 2002-03. Central to this is the objective to discourage the occurrence of all crimes through the provisions of a proactive and responsive policing service. Furthermore, it augments visible policing and has, since its inception, not only ensured increased police visibility, but also gave communities a greater sense of safety and security, particularly in areas of social crime. Moreover, it seeks to reduce opportunities to commit crime.

In terms of this programme the most skilled and competent police officers are deployed at police stations, because ultimately it is where an investigation succeeds or fails. As the ANC we believe that sector policing can and should reduce the still too high incidents of crime against women and children, as well as ensure the proper investigation of sexual offences such as rape and indecent assault.

Any democratic society is measured by the extent to which the people contribute to efforts or lack of it of government. In South Africa, by extension, the SA Police Service is no exception. In this regard I believe we have made great strides in relation to community development, community policing forums and the building of community safety centres.

In regard to crime prevention development programmes, we have, as a portfolio committee, witnessed some of the successes of the development and implementation of community-based crime prevention strategies.

It has made significant contribution towards intersectoral operations. It serves as a tool for local service providers such as local government to integrate community-based crime prevention strategies in their core business. In some communities we have seen participation through the application of indigenous knowledge.

Ewe, Sihlalo, nangona iintatheli namaphephandaba ezama ukunika umfanekiso ongemhlanga, thina njengombutho i-ANC sikhuthazwa ngakumbi ngumsebenzi omhle owenziwa zezi ngala maqonga eliso lomzi. Aba ngabahlali abaqhelekileyo, abancama ixesha, amandla kwanokhuseleko lwabo besilwa ubukrelemnqa. Baqinisekisa belumkisa ngeenkqubo ezikhoyo, bemanyene nabahlali ekulweni ubukrelemnqa. Bancedisana namapolisa ukwakha ubudlelwana noosomashishini kwakunye nabanye ababandakanyekayo ekuhlaleni, bebonisana ngeendlela zokulwa ubundlobongela. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)

[Yes, Chairperson, although the media is trying to paint the wrong picture, the ANC-led government is encouraged by the good work from these community policing forums. These are ordinary citizens, who sacrifice their time, energy and safety to fight crime. They ensure that proper procedure is followed with regard to the existing programmes, while working with the communities in fighting crime. They also liaise with the police in building relations with businessmen and other stakeholders in the communities to find ways of combating crime.]

In fact, independent research shows that they are the real unsung heroes and heroines in areas where there is a decline in particular in social crime. Indeed, it is precisely these CPFs, as they are popularly known, who will be able to provide any respected crime reporter with accurate information on the extent of crime and even delinquency in their areas. These are the brave individuals who encounter the material life of misery of the masses, which remains the breeding ground of crime in our country.

Before we distort crime figures, for whatever reason, let us spare a thought for them. As a portfolio committee we are naturally concerned at the persistent levels of brazen and violent crimes that still dominate the headlines. However, we are also aware, and independent research attests to this, that the SA Police Service’s success ratio on this front is indeed increasing. We have to commend them, and we are naturally excited, but also cautious.

These achievements should serve as an illustration of our ANC-led government’s commitment proactively to block the modus operandi those criminals employ against our people. In this regard, however, we would like to see a streamlined, integrated approach between the agencies of safety and security, justice, social development and correctional services. In conclusion, we want to reiterate our viewpoint and in terms of our oversight and monitoring role, declare that all of these initiatives will in fact be hollow if our people do not have faith and trust in the SA Police Service. Hence we want to impress upon the leadership of the SA Police Service, to ensure that mechanisms are put in place to revive their flagging integrity. The ANC supports the budget. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Voorsitter, in 1993-94 het Suid-Afrika ’n nuwe bedeling betree. Ons spog graag met ons nuwe Grondwet en hoe wonderlik dit is. In artikel 205(3) van die Grondwet word bepaal dat die doelstellings van die polisie is om misdaad te voorkom en die inwoners van die Republiek en hul eiendom te beskerm en te beveilig.

Die vraag is egter of hierdie grondwetlike plig nagekom word. Kyk ons na die misdaad in Suid-Afrika sedert 1993-94 dan sien ons dat misdaad teen individue skrikwekkend toegeneem het. Aanranding met die opset om ernstig te beseer het toegeneem met 15,6%. Gewone aanranding het toegeneem met 33,7% terwyl roof met verswarende omstandighede met 50% toegeneem het. Gewone roof het toegeneem met 178%. Geweld teen veral vroue is uiters kommerwekkend, want sedert 1993 het verkragtings met 23,1% toegeneem. Verlede jaar is 55 114 vroue verkrag. Dit beteken dat daar elke 10 minute ’n vrou in Suid-Afrika verkrag word. Na die tydsduur van hierdie debat moet ons weet dat daar 16 vroue in Suid-Afrika verkrag is – dit maak van Suid- Afrika ’n gevaarlike plek vir vroue. Die afgelope vyf jaar was daar 4 106 plaasaanvalle en 560 boere is op hul plase vermoor. Dit maak boerdery in Suid-Afrika die gevaarlikste beroep, nie net in Suid-Afrika nie, maar in die wêreld. Intussen gaan die regering voort en hy sluit kommando-eenhede.

Die agb Minister het netnou hier gesê dat daar begroot is om 8 000 reserviste te kan ontplooi om landelike beveiliging te doen. Ek wil vir die agb Minister vra: hoe gaan 8 000 reserviste dieselfde werk kan doen wat 25 000 kommandolede gedoen het? Dit is ontmoontlik. Die regering gaan voort, wetende dat die polisie nie die infrastruktuur en die mannekrag het om behoorlike landelike beveiliging toe te pas nie.

Van huisbrake wil ek nie eens praat nie. Hoeveel keer moet ’n mens nie in die media verneem van mense wat sê dat die polisie sê hulle kom nie eens uit vir inbrake nie. Dit is direk strydig met artikel 205 van die Grondwet. Die agb Minister en die polisie het die stryd teen misdaad verloor. U kom nie u grondwetlike plig na nie, agb Minister. Dit word verder weerspieël dat volgens die SA Instituut vir Rasse-aangeleenthede sekuriteitsbeamptes sedert 1997 met 150% toegeneem het. Tans is daar drie sekuriteitsbeamptes vir elke polisiebeampte. Die publiek moet nou al so ver gaan om ’n privaatmaatskappy te huur om sekere moorde te ondersoek, bloot omdat die polisie nie genoegsame kundigheid het nie. Agb Minister, u kom nie u grondwetlike plig na nie.

Ek wil die stelling maak dat as die sekuriteitsindustrie môre toemaak, het ons algehele anargie in hierdie land. Die ontstellende feit is egter dat slegs 8%-9% van misdade suksesvol in ons howe vervolg word. Dit beteken dat misdadigers ’n 92%-kans het om weg te kom met misdaad in Suid-Afrika.

Die ergste nog is dat as lede van die publiek hulself verdedig, dan kan hulle gearresteer word, byvoorbeeld as hulle ’n misdadiger sou doodmaak in hul huise. Dit het in Pretoria gebeur. Die polisie sê vir die misdadigers: moenie bekommerd wees nie, ons sal julle beskerm.

Van die VF Plus se kant af wil ek wel vir daardie lede van die polisiemag, daardie manne en vroue wat uit hulle pad uitgaan om hul land te dien, dankie sê dat hulle ten spyte van die moeilike omstandighede en ten spyte van die stres wat op hulle geplaas word, steeds puik diens lewer. Vir die ander wat nie hul werk doen nie, is dit tyd om die mag te verlaat. Dankie. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Chairperson, in 1993-94 South Africa entered a new dispensation. We like to boast about our new Constitution and how wonderful it is. In section 205(3) of the Constitution it is determined that the objects of the police are to prevent crime and to protect and safeguard the citizens of the Republic and their property. However, the question is whether this constitutional obligation is being fulfilled. If we look at crime in South Africa since 1993-94, we see that crime against individuals has increased alarmingly. Assault with the intention to do grievous bodily harm has increased by 15,6%. Ordinary assault has increased by 33,7% while assault with aggravating circumstances increased by 50%. Ordinary robbery increased by 178%. Violence against women, especially, is extremely worrying, as rape has increased by 23,1% since 1993. Last year 55 114 women were raped. This means that in South Africa a woman is raped every 10 minutes. We should know that during this debate 16 women will be raped in South Africa – this makes South Africa a dangerous place for women.

During the past five years there were 4 106 attacks on farms and 560 farmers were murdered on their farms. This makes farming South Africa’s most dangerous occupation, not only in South Africa, but also in the world. In the meanwhile the government continues to close down commando units.

The hon Minister said a short while ago that they budgeted for 8 000 reservists to be deployed to undertake rural safeguarding. I would like to ask the hon Minister how 8 000 reservists are going to do the work that 25 000 commando members used to do? It is impossible. The government continues, knowing that the police do not have the infrastructure and the manpower to implement proper rural safeguarding. I do not even want to talk about housebreaking. How many times does one not note in the media that people say the police do not even come out to them if a break-in occurs? This is in direct conflict with section 205 of the Constitution. The hon Minister and the police have lost the fight against crime. You are not complying with your constitutional duty, hon Minister. This is further reflected by the 150% increase in security guards since 1997, according to the SA Institute for Race Relations. At present there are three security guards for every police officer. The public now have to go so far as hiring private companies to investigate certain murders, simply because the police do not have enough expertise. Hon Minister, you are not complying with your constitutional duty.

I would like to state that if the security industry closed down tomorrow, we would have total anarchy in this country. The most upsetting thing, however, is that only 8% to 9% of crimes are successfully prosecuted in our courts. This means that criminals have a 92% chance of getting away with crime in South Africa.

By far the worst thing is that if the public defend themselves, then they can be arrested, when for example they kill criminals in their homes. It happened in Pretoria. The police are saying to criminals: Do not worry, we will protect you.

From the side of the FF Plus I would like to say to those members of the police force, those men and women who go out of their way to serve their country, thank you for providing excellent service, despite the difficult circumstances and the stress which is placed on them. To those who do not do their job, it is time to leave the force. Thank you.]

Mong M T LIKOTSI: Modulasetulo Mokgahlo wa PAC o amohela tekanyetso ena. Ha e fete tekanyetso ena. Lefatshe la rona le tletse botlokotsebe. Ke ka mokgwa oo re hlokang seponesa ho sereletsa setjhaba. Seponesa sa rona se hloka tshehetso yohle ho rona re le setjhaba ho hlakola botlokotsebe. Bahlomphehi re tlameha ho hlahola botlokotsebe ka metso.

Re tlameha mmoho ho fedisa boqitolo bo etswang ke ditlokotsebe naheng ya rona. Re tlameile ho hana ho buswa ke ditlokotsebe. Mmuso o tlameha ho fa maponesa matla a ho bontsha ditlokotsebe tsena moo motlwang wa pula o tswang teng. (Translation of Sesotho paragraphs follows.)

[Mr M T LIKOTSI: Chairperson, the PAC accepts this Budget Vote. Let this Budget Vote be passed. There is a lot of crime in our country. That is the reason we need the police to protect our community. Our police force needs all the support from us as a community so that they can eradicate crime. Hon members, we have to uproot crime.

We have to stop the crimes that these criminals are committing in our country. We should not allow criminals to rule our lives. The government should give the police the powers to deal accordingly with these criminals.]

Bahlonitshwa masiyeke ukudlala apha. Masiqeqeshe bonke aba bantu baziindlavini apha ekuhlaleni. [Hon members, let us stop playing games here. Let us train all these people who are ruffians in our communities.]

The police need our support. We cannot be seen to be giving criminals an upper hand over the law-abiding citizens. If we as the nation are serious about uprooting crime, we have to work closely with the police and nip crime in the bud. We reiterate as the PAC that there should be no place for criminals in our country - blue, white or any colour of criminal.

Maponesa a etsa mosebetsi o kgabane, ke bo mautlwela, ba thusa ho fedisa ditlhekefetso tsa basadi le bana. Ba sereleditse naha ena ka maphelo a bona. Maponesa a re thusitse ho tshwara baferekanyi ba Boeremag ba neng ba itlhophisitse, ho hlokisa naha ena ya rona botlokotsebe.

Maponesa a eleng ditlokotsebe ha a emise ka botloko tsebe, hore re tsebe ho re re ba tshehetse jwalo ka setjhaba. PAC e kgothatsa seponesa hore se tie, se matlafale. PAC ere setjhaba se se thuse ho thibela polao ya maponesa ka hore se fane ka sebaka sa ho ipata ho ditlakotsebe. (Translation of Sesotho paragraphs follows.) [The police force is doing a great job, they are spies, and they help to curb the abuse of women and children. They put their lives at risk to protect us in this country. The police helped us by arresting Boeremag villains who were prepared to subvert our country.

Policepersons that are involved in crime should stop, so that we as a nation can give them support. The PAC encourages the police force to be strong and powerful. The PAC appeals to the community to help them to stop this carnage of our policemen and policewomen by furnishing them with information about these criminals’ hiding spots.]

Ms S RAJBALLY: Thank you, Chairperson, greetings to all our children today. As reported in the South African Yearbook for 2005-06 in September 2005, the SAPS released the crime statistics of 2004-05 showing a decrease in most crimes, but an increase in rape and drug-related crimes. These statistics have certainly been altered as a result of the security strike. The MF called for the immediate settlement of the security guard issue to restore balance to the crime situation in South Africa.

The MF applauds the SAPS for the strong role it plays in reducing crime in South Africa, so as to be a bigger deterrent for rape and drug-related crimes. We hereby ask for more intense punishment to be imposed on criminals of this nature as possible deterrents. We suggest looking at the criminal justice system abroad that has successfully managed to reduce crime and introduce pilot projects in line with these lessons learned to deter crime and bring justice to South Africa.

As noted in the President’s state of the nation address and in the MT Budget Policy Statement in October 2005 of the Minister of Finance and in his budget speech for 2006:

Safety and security remains a priority in the South African agenda. Crime is notably a serious problem and in South Africa government is determined to tackle it.

We are pleased that the border line issues are being addressed as well as the updating of SAPS vehicles and facilities, especially IT. We believe that the budget allocated to the department, together with the department’s intention, will address, redress and transform the SAPS and reduce crime in South Africa. We will have even better statistics to report next year.

The MF will always stand by you, Minister, in assisting to curb crime. The MF supports the Budget Vote. Thank you.

Mr S E KHOLWANE: Somlomo, Ndvuna kanye neliSekela lakho, malunga eSishayamtsetfo, bokhomishane bemaprovinsi labakhona kanye nalabachamuka eTiko Letekuphepha … [Speaker, Minister and Deputy Minister, hon members, provincial delegates, and everyone present, including visitors from the Department of Safety and Security …]

… I also want to take this opportunity to greet the young people, men and women who have visited us today in this Parliament. You are more than welcome. [Applause.]

Our first democratically elected President, Nelson Mandela, will not only go down in history for the 27 consecutive years he spent in prison, without ever forsaking his ideals. He will also be remembered because he was capable of stripping from his heart all the venom that such unjust punishment can cause to accumulate. He will also be remembered for his magnanimity and the wisdom he showed in brilliantly leading his self- sacrificing and heroic people when the hour of victory could no longer be contained. He was deeply convinced that South Africa couldn’t be built on hatred and revenge.

We cannot lose sight of the fact that structural inequalities built over years into the fabric of our society by colonial and apartheid policies have contributed to the high levels of poverty and inequity in our country. It also undermined the position of women, and ultimately played a major contributing role to our high rate of crimes against women and children.

The 51st National Conference of the ANC - not the DA - resolved that we needed to intensify our campaigns to reduce crime against women and children, the abuse of the elderly and family violence. Indeed, the SAPS strategic plan for 2005-2010 focuses exactly on the reduction of the incidence of crimes against women and children. We are pleased about that.

With regard to the detective services, there must be an intensive investigation and analysis of crimes and assaults of a sexual nature. The forensic science laboratory services rendered could assist the court trial, particularly in matters involving women and children, in order to secure convictions.

Notwithstanding the fact that women and children are often lumped together as vulnerable groups, it is important to separate them. Of course, this is precisely because their needs and interest are not the same and present different behavioural challenges in policing itself.

As we engage in this Budget debate, we should note that this week is children´s protection week in South Africa, whilst noting that today is International Children´s Day. Therefore, I want to add my voice of support to all abused children whilst sending a stern warning to those who continue to abuse our women and children.

Lesimo sebantfwana sinenselele lenkhulu emphakatsini kanye nangendlela umbutfo wetekuphepha kufanele usebente ngakhona. Kufanele sisho kwekutsi umtsetfo kanye neMtsetfosisekelo uyabavikela bantfwana kungakhatsalekile kutsi ngibo yini nome cha laba labagangile okanye labahlukunyetiwe. (Translation of Siswati paragraph follows.)

[The plight of children is a very serious one in our society, but so are the strategies adopted by the Department of Safety and Security to combat crimes against women and children. I must mention that both the law and the Constitution protect the rights of children, regardless of whether they had been abused before or were in the wrong.]

We are aware that although tough crimes against children occur in all communities, it’s clear that children in poor communities are more at risk due to structural features of poor environments that raise the risk of abuse.

We know that we are staying in overcrowded areas and sometimes we bring nonfamily members into our homes so that we are able to increase our income at the end of the day, and that results directly in the abuse of children.

The 1956 women’s march was a turning point in the history of the matters of women in this country, hence the 50th Anniversary celebration this year. Since then women in South Africa have waged a gallant struggle and as a consequence they counted a lot of gains in terms of rights enshrined in the Constitution. Siyabonga bomake ngeligalelo lenu emzabalazweni, silapha lamuhla ngenca yenu. Alibongwe! [We thank the women for their continued efforts in the struggle; we are here today because of you. Praise!]

HON MEMBERS: Igama lamakhosikazi! [The name of women!]

In South Africa women were once treated as second-class citizens, destined to serve the wishes of others rather than to achieve their own goals. Today, all South Africans enjoy equality under the law, and we work each day to make equality a fact of life for every man and woman in this country.

Today South African women work together to speak out on the difficulties they face. And even more important, they offer solutions to those problems and do not just speak up about them.

Malunga eSishayamtsetfo, ngekwetibalo teLitiko Letekuphepha kuyakhanye kutsi lizinga lemacala ekugetjengwa kwabomake liyehla ngaphandle kwekutsi lizinga lemacala ekudlwengulwa kwabomake liyenyuka. Uyaye uve labanye batsi ngendlela bomake labagcoka ngayo, ngiko lokubabangela kutsi badlwengulwe.

Kodvwa mine ngishaya ngendvuku phansi ngitsi cha, loko akusilo nani liciniso. Labobabe labagagadlela timbuti, tinkhomo, netinja tisuke tigcokeni loku lokuheha labo bobabe? Nangabe ukhona lonemphendvulo yaloko mhlayimbe natsi singavuma-ke kutsi lokugcoka kwabomake ngiko lokuyinkinga. Siyati kutsi tinkhomo netimbuti nato setiyagagadlelwa, sifundze kanyenti emaphepheni ngaloko. Akusilo nani liciniso kutsi ngulokugcoka kwabomake loku lokwenta kutsi bagagadlelwe.

Siyayibonga kakhulu iWestern Cape Nethiwekhi mayelana nekulwa nekugetjengwa kwabomake, nekuchumana netinhlangano kanye nebantfu bonkhana labasebentela kucaphelisa bantfu ngekugetjengwa kwabomake, kanye naletinye tinhlangano. Sitsi kufanele tichubeke tente njalo. Umphakatsi wetfu kufanele wati kahle hle kutsi bomake kanye nebantfwana akusibo bantfu bekugetjengwa, nabo banelilungelo leligcwele njengatsi sonkhe lekutsi baphile kuleNingizimu Afrika yetfu. (Translation of Siswati paragraphs follows.)

[Hon members, according to the statistics of the Department of Safety and Security it is clear that the rate of crimes committed against women is decreasing despite the fact that the rate of rape cases is on the rise. This is commonly blamed, though wrongly so, on women dressing inappropriately.

I disagree! That is in no way correct. What about those men who commit bestiality by raping goats, cows, and dogs? What would these animals be wearing to seduce these men? If there is anyone who can answer that, then maybe they can convince us that women are raped as a result of the way they dress.

We would also like to thank the Western Cape security network for vehemently taking up the fight against crimes committed against women, and working together with organisations and the community at large to educate people about these crimes. We urge them to continue the good work. Society needs to have a clear understanding that women and children are not to be abused as they have rights that protect them, just like the rest of us in South Africa.]

Hon members, the government’s intervention by creating sexual offences courts for cases of assaulted, abused and raped children should be applauded by all of us, including the opposition. The SAPS has a very informative website, though most of our people cannot access that information.

Therefore the critical role of communication technologies cannot be overemphasised in empowering women with information to defend themselves against the perpetrators of crimes. Therefore, the roll-out of MPCC becomes critically important, including the radical reduction of illiteracy in our society.

One must say that we should ensure that we are being more generous, more fraternal and more humane. Let all of us, MPs in particular, move out of our trenches and support the effort of the department. In fact, we should be the catalyst for ensuring that the war against this crime is won decisively.

There is no use in coming to this podium and blaming the department or the SAPS. We should be playing a critical role as MPs, including the opposition, so that when we go into our constituency period we ensure that we talk and educate our communities to assist the police in the difficult tasks that face them every day. The ANC supports the Budget. [Applause.]

Mr L M GREEN: Chairperson … [Interjections.] Chairperson, I can see the hon Bloem is still in the House. I want to say to him that he knows I like him very much. Regarding our altercation, we will deal with it outside this House. So nothing is taken seriously, and I understand the spirit in which he addressed me.

Chairperson, hon Minister and members, the SA Police Service is rendering one of the most important services in our nation and they should be commended for their hard work. They prevent, combat and investigate crime; maintain public order; protect and secure the inhabitants and their property; and they uphold and enforce the law.

One of the most serious issues that must be addressed, hon Minister and your department, is the salary scale of police officers. A constable with less than two years’ service earns R1 600 a month, a sergeant earns between R3 000 and R3 500, and an inspector earns between R4 500 and R5 000 per month. This, hon Minister, is unacceptable. Most police officers, especially detectives, have a massive workload. The entire Athlone police detective branch have opted, according to a report, to join a patrol unit rather than face piles of case dockets, often amounting to about 700 new cases each month.

There are many police officers who have left the SAPS to start their own security companies, and that is why we have a proliferation of such companies. With reference to Programme 2, Visible Policing, the FD would like the police to become much more visible in our communities. Just a week ago I reported a case of domestic violence to the Phillipi police station about a lady who had a court interdict against her husband, and absolutely nothing was done about this. With these few words, hon Minister, the FD supports your Budget Vote. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mnr R J KING: Voorsitter, Suid-Afrika ry tans die golf van finansiële sukses soos selde tevore wat betref groei, die randwaarde, goudprys, aandelemarksuksesse, lae rentekoerse en hoogtepunte weekliks op die geldmarkte; en ons Minister van Finasies deel geskenke uit wat selfs Kersvader blosend laat.

Selde nog was omstandighede só gunstig vir beleggings, vir bou en vir regmaak wat verkeerd is. Die regte tyd is nou. Wie nie ‘n oorlog wen onder optimale onstandighede nie, sal sekerlik faal as die gety teen hom draai, en tog is hierdie regering besig om die stryd op twee dodelik belangrike fronte sienderoë te verloor - en ‘n land wat dié geveg verloor, sal nooit ‘n wenland wees nie. Suid-Afrika verloor die stryd teen armoede en Suid Afrika verloor die stryd teen misdaad: die twee euwels wat in simbiose hand aan hand loop. Agb Jankielsohn het met maar enkele gevalle aan u probeer voorhou die trauma en wanhoop wat opklink uit die letterlik honderde skrywes van misdaadslagoffers wat op die DA se lessenaar beland.

Die inhoud van hierdie skrywes vertel saam gelees ‘n rillerverhaal van ‘n rampokkerland waar misdaad onbeheers floreer. Daar is deurlopend ernstige klagtes oor die gebrek aan dienslewering by menige polisiekantore en gevolglik indringende vrae oor die polisie se betroubaarheid en integriteit.

Ek wil vandag vir die minister sê, ’n polisiediens wat nie die vertroue en die agting van die gemeenskap kan wen nie, kan nie wenners teen misdaad wees nie, en slaag nie die mees basiese toets van ‘n suksesvolle polisiediens nie. Ons het ‘n polisiediens getreiter deur ‘n vertrouensbreuk met die kliënte wat hulle moet bedien enersyds, en wat ál meer die slagoffers is van direkte, arrogante aanslae deur misdadigers andersyds.

Ons wil u help, minister, want verloor ons hier, verloor ons almal saam. Moenie verder wegskram van misdaadstatistiek nie. Ons moet vir ons polisie vars mikpunte kan stel waarby streng gehou moet word. Ons soek ten minste 150 000 aktiewe polisielede op straat wat goed en mededingend besoldig word en vir wie meriete en goeie diens bevordering beteken. Haal politieke oorwegings uit polisiebesluite. Laat die demografie in die polisiekantoor lyk soos die gemeenskap wat hy bedien en laat die polisie die taal praat van die omliggende gemeenskap. Daar moet metodes gevind word om die publiek te vergoed vir die astronomiese uitgawes om misdaad te bestry en slagoffers van misdaad sal gehelp moet word met fisieke en geestelike bystand.

Die vernietiging van die kommando’s hét toe ‘n liederlike leemte in die veiligheidsnetwerk geruk. Plaasmoorde neem weer toe. So pas hierdie week was daar die gruwelik gewelddadige moord, op die Van Tonders in Bethlehem.

Kyk asseblief na die DA se plan vir landelike veiligheid, minister, en stel ‘n spesialisafdeling in vir grens- en landelike veiligheid soos ons in die voorlegging aan u uiteensit. Elke koerant, elke nuusberig, elke persoonlike gesprek, elke dag - misdaad, moord doodslag.

Ons nasie word afgestomp aan trauma en hartseer, en die agb lid Van Wyk kom sê waaragtig vir ons sy verstaan nie die simpatie van my agb kollega Jankielsohn nie. Ek kan alleen u minagting en verontwaardiging met agb Jankielsohn se aanhalings van misdaadslagoffers se noodoproepe verstaan, indien dit beteken óf dat u self nie sulke skrywes ontvang nie, óf dat u geen simpatie met die slagoffers van misdaad het nie. [Tussenwerpsels.]

Dan dink ek dis werklik u plig om vir die Parlement te sê waar lê u simpatie as dit nie by die slagoffers is nie. [Tussenwerpsels.] En verwag u regtig van ons in die DA om die slagoffers van misdaad te versaak? Die skrif is aan die muur, minister. U kan waaragtig nie weer soos laasjaar u hande in die lug gooi en verantwoordelikheid misken nie. Iets baie drasties sal gedoen moet word voor hierdie gety gaan omswaai. [Tussenwerpsels.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mr R J KING: Chairperson, rarely before has South Africa ridden the wave of financial success as at present with regard to growth, the rand value, gold price, stock market highs, low interest rates, weekly peaks on the money markets; and our Minister of Finance is handing out presents that even has Father Christmas blushing.

Rarely before have circumstances been as favourable for investments, for construction and for repairing what is wrong. The opportune time is now. If you cannot win a war when optimal circumstances prevail, then you will certainly fail if the tide turns against you; and yet this government is visibly losing the battle on two very important fronts, and a country that loses this battle will never be a successful country.

South Africa is losing the battle against poverty, and South Africa is losing the battle against crime: two evils that share a symbiotic relationship. Hon Jankielsohn, by making mention of but a few cases, has tried to present the trauma and despair that resounds from the literally hundreds of letters from victims of crime that land on the DA’s desk.

The contents of these letters, read together, tell a frightening story about a gang-infested country where crime flourishes uncontrolled. There have been continual serious complaints about the lack of service delivery at many police stations and as a result penetrating questions have been asked about police reliability and integrity.

I want to tell the Minister today that a police service that cannot gain the trust and respect of the community cannot beat crime, and does not pass the most basic test of a successful police service. We have a police service that is tormented by a breach of trust with regard to the clients they must serve on the one hand, and that are increasingly becoming the victims of direct, arrogant attacks by criminals, on the other hand.

We want to help you, Minister, because if we lose here we all lose together. Do not avoid crime statistics any longer. We must be able to set new targets for our police that they must strictly adhere to. We want at least 150 000 active police members on the streets, who must be paid good and competitive salaries and for whom merit and good service mean promotion.

Remove political considerations from police decisions. Let the demography in the police station resemble the community it serves and let the police speak the language of the surrounding community. Methods must be found to compensate the public for the astronomical cost of fighting crime, and victims of crime must receive physical and spiritual assistance.

The destruction of commandos did indeed cause very serious deficiencies in the safety network. Farm murders are on the increase again. Just this week we had the extremely violent murder of the Van Tonders in Bethlehem.

Please look at the DA’s plan for rural safety, Minister, and establish a specialist section for border and rural safety, as we explained in our submission to you. Every newspaper, every news report, every personal conversation, every day – it’s just crime, murder, homicide.

Our nation is becoming numbed by the trauma and sorrow, and the hon member Van Wyk actually tells us that she does not understand my hon colleague Jankielsohn’s sympathy. I can only understand your contempt and indignation with regard to hon Jankielsohn quoting crime victims’ cries of distress if it means that either you have not received such letters yourself, or you have no sympathy with the victims of crime. [Interjections.]

Then I think it truly is your duty to tell Parliament where your sympathy lies if it is not with the victims. [Interjections.] And do you really expect us in the DA to forsake the victims of crime? The writing is on the wall, Minister. You cannot actually throw your arms in the air and ignore your responsibilities, as you did last year. Something very drastic must be done before this tide will turn. [Interjections.]]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon members, please, I am battling to hear the speaker, and I’m sure so are you. Please keep your comments at a lower level, thank you.

Mnr R J KING: In belang van oorlewing, minister, doen iets, of gaan in hemelsnaam na die President, en neem sommer u Adjunkminister saam, en versoek hom om u te onthef en te vervang met ‘n minister wat die misdadigers aan die strot kan gryp en Suid-Afrika kan wegruk van die afgrond van selfvernietiging. [Tussenwerpsels.]

Die oorgrote meerderheid van ons polisiemanne en -vroue is lojale, hardwerkende en eerlike beamptes wat onder uiters moeilike omstandighede hul werk verrig. Die DA bring hulde aan hulle, ons eer julle en assosieer ons graag met julle en ons salueer julle. Doen asseblief so voort, ons land kan nie sonder u klaarkom nie. Baie dankie. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mr R J KING: In the interest of survival, Minister, do something, or in heaven’s name go to the President, and take your Deputy Minister along with you, and request him to discharge you and replace you with a Minister who can grab the criminals by the throat and wrest South Africa from the abyss of self-destruction. [Interjections.]

The great majority of our policemen and policewomen are loyal, hard-working and honest officials who work under very difficult circumstances. The DA pays tribute to them. We honour you and we willingly associate ourselves with you and we salute you. Please continue in this vein; our country cannot manage without you. Thank you very much. [Applause.]]

Mr M S BOOI: Madam Chair, hon Minister, our good policemen and policewomen, the chairperson of our committee, I’m definitely sure that we need to do some good work today in order for us to give some perspective on the issues that have been raised. These issues are not new and they are not issues that we don’t know of. They are issues that as South Africans, it is important that we talk to one another about.

As one of the members has said, it is important that we don’t talk and politicise issues that are related to crime. But, as always, we, in the ANC, ask: How honest are you? How prepared are you to assist us to fight the battle against crime committed by those, whom nobody, even the Minister of Safety and Security, have asked to commit such brutal murders. Nobody here has done so.

It is within that context that we are saying that the police are doing a very good job. They are also human and also have families, and are quite committed, as South Africans, to helping us to combat crime. As they are seated here wearing their uniforms, they are not asleep. They are quite active for 24 hours, listening to everybody, taking up every other complaint.

It becomes very difficult when politicians come here and start spitting fire, generalising and hitting hard at other human beings, who have decided to take upon themselves the responsibility of protecting us. As South Africans and as the different political parties, we should really feel that we sometimes do have a responsibility to praise them and to stand with them.

We don’t want to do that in the ANC, but the type of role we have played in society is known. And that is the type of role we are going to be able to stick to as we continue explaining and enunciating the policies that we think are the challenges that confront the police themselves. [Interjections.]

I’ve said to the hon Jankielsohn, during committee meetings, that I do not dispute that many people write letters and I do not have a problem with that. It’s very important for any public representative to receive letters and for them to interact with the communities. That is our responsibility.

From the type of analysis that he gives and the type of anonymous letters that he reads out, which are not contextualised, you can’t tell whether it is his party members or family members that are writing these letters. They leave us with a lot of suspicion. And we are saying, be genuine, tell South Africans that “I received a letter, because I work in Crossroads, in which the residents of Ward 36, Crossroads, are complaining about the police.” I would then listen to you. I have no problem with you doing that. But when you come to this platform and say that you are a messiah, and want to create the impression that you are the only one who can solve the crisis around crime, then you are creating a problem for all of us.

Firstly, you are not basing it on policy and, secondly, you are not basing your statement on the issues confronting the police. Thirdly, you don’t say to the police: These are the things that you are doing and this is what you are not able to do well.

These policemen are available to listen to anybody. That is the reason the plan that has been outlined by the Minister says: Let’s transfer the managerial structure from the national level and take it down to the station level.

The plan shows a clear understanding of issues. And more than that, we are bound by the Constitution to continue exposing ourselves to communities, and this is what the Minister is outlining. Both speakers from the DA showed no appreciation of the situation. They don’t care what the Minister is saying, that this is progressive policy and that these are the things that we are fighting over.

The ANC introduced the Community Police Forums and now it says: Let us take the powers away from the national level and continue strengthening police stations. Lets take the resources away from the national level and continue putting them in the stations where the communities are, so that you are able, as a Member of Parliament, as a councillor and as a community forum person to interact with the police and be seen as a responsible South African.

That is transformation and that is good, but they don’t talk about it. They talk about letter-writing; love letters that they receive from different people that you can’t account for.

You should be able to say to the chairperson that concerning the monitoring work that you are doing, as a Member of Parliament, these are the issues that you are confronted with. However, that is not happening here. Now, we are left wondering, as the ANC, what it is that we need to do? How do we come to the rescue of the other hon member, because we treat him as an honourable member. We want to work with him, but if he is not responsible in front of the public here, it then creates a particular problem.

Hon Groenewald, you and I are on the defence committee, and I’ve made this point to you before, and I’m going to make it again. Maybe it will explain why I think we might be involved in an ideological battle here. [Interjections.]

The point is, you come here and you argue about private security companies. After we had presented the antimercenary Bill a private security company, Omega, was accused of planning a coup in the DRC. [Interjections.] We looked into that. [Interjections.]

Let’s look at the private security industry. [Interjections.] I’m coming to you. I’m telling you the truth. We allowed ADT, a private security company, to continue gathering information in our country, but urged them to work with the people in the country. Today they do not even respect the labour market and our labour laws. They do not even assist us.

Now, you ask yourself: Is there someone on a counter-revolutionary path here, or are these just actions of innocent people? Now, you are saying to me that private security companies are trustworthier in fighting crime than the structures of government. You must explain that to me.

I know for sure that there are private security companies that are there at the airport at this particular moment, that stake out for information, sift through it every day and horde it, without even sharing it with NIA and the different institutional structures that have been created in the country. Now, you want me to entrust those private security companies with the responsibility for the security of South Africans? [Interjections.] I am saying that is very difficult.

That explains that you do have a problem, or you are saying to us that these private security companies are not playing a genuine role within our country. Their aim is not to help state institutions, because they go against governments and they prove continuously that their role within the African continent is not a genuine one.

The President of the country, Comrade Mbeki, plays a particular role of trying to unite all of the African countries. However, the private security companies that today you say are helping in fighting crime are the ones that are destabilising African countries. [Interjections.] In this day and age - I’m not talking about before the 80s - they assist in destabilising countries. And you want to say to me, today, that South Africans should trust those private security companies?

They are not trustworthy, and I will continually say to you that what you have presented here is not factually correct. It is something that you are thumb-sucking from somewhere else.

Mr P J GROENEWALD: Chairperson, is the hon member willing to take a question? It will be a very easy question. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon member?

Mr M S BOOI: Let me proceed. I will give you another minute before I finish.

Mr P J GROENEWALD: Does it mean you don’t want to answer an easy question? Mr M S BOOI: The one important thing that the Deputy Minister has said is that it would be very important for South Africans, when they deal with issues of statistics, to use the statistics to reflect reality on the ground. It’s not that the Minister or anyone of us is afraid of dealing with statistics.

I want you to go and read Crime Quarterly, where it talks about the limitations of statistics, and then compare and debate the two presentations made by the two different institutions therein. At the end of the day, what that analyst says is that the statistics that you could be better able to relate to in the country today are only the police statistics. They are correct and they are not generalising, as you were doing here. [Interjections.] You came here to explain … [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon members, this is a debate for general consumption and not for the two of you. So, please speak through the Chair.

Mr M S BOOI: Chair, it is not between him and me. I’m talking about statistics. He said that of the statistics from MRC and SAPS, the correct statistics, and which have continuously been proven so, are the ones from SAPS, even in relation to the ages of people and to death in South Africa. He said these are the correct statistics that you could make use of.

But what the Deputy Minister says is that we should not stick to statistics, because they are not correct when you want to deal with the number of dead people. The hon member says that this is what the police are supposed to be doing. She says: let’s continue finding solutions and to engage on these matters.

Hon Jankielsohn presented some statistics here, yet there was no clarity as to where those statistics came from and how they are going to benefit people. They aren’t beneficial to any of us, even if I, as the one who was listening to you, would want to make use of them. [Interjections.]

Even when we have a workshop, I’m always prepared, but it’s not about you. Overall, hon Jankielsohn, the challenge that we are confronted with, as the ANC, is that as South Africans, the progress that has been made with regard to policing in the past 10 to 12 years is supposed to be really commendable.

We have been able to allocate resources continuously, even in the face of the few resources that we have. If you were listening carefully to the Minister, the way you gave powers to detectives in the past was haphazard, and nobody cared about them. Today they have offices and they do know that at least they have so many cases to follow up, etc.

The problem is that you are generalising; you say that crime is going up, and you can’t explain to us what type of crimes you are talking about. It is this generalisation that is creating the confusion.

Nobody disputes that tomorrow morning I’ll get a report of a murder committed, on the first pages of newspapers. Nobody feels proud of that, and no South African ever will. But what we are saying is: What do you do as a South African? How do you try to help all of us, including the police, combat crime, if you do not pinpoint the crime you are talking about?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon member, your speaking time has expired.

Mr M S BOOI: We sit here discussing campaigns to fight rape, and we point out that these are the challenges that we are confronted with. Thank you. [Time Expired.] … [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Deputy Chairperson, one of the things that I hated with a passion when I was growing up was being patronised. I still hate being patronised! And, the police hate being patronised. Just listen to the hon King. He stands here, and everything he said is against the police. And when he leaves the podium he says, ``these are people we can work with, I love them’’. That is patronising and it is disgusting in the extreme. [Applause.] There is something I want to deal with here, and I hope they are going to listen very carefully. When you are a politician, you must be able to read the signs. You must be able therefore to understand what is happening in the body politic of the country where you are. There were 17 speakers here

• apart from the Deputy Minister and I - and the great majority of those speakers spoke very well in support of the police service.

But who did not do that? It is someone who is called hon R Jankielsohn. It is someone who is called hon P J Groenewald. It is someone who is called hon R J King. Those are the only people who have spoken against the police, essentially. Of course, we understand why they do this. Anthony Al Bekker explains their situation in an article in the Sunday Times:

It’s possible then that the overall decline in some crimes, notably murder, obscures an increase in crimes committed in the communities in which my friends live. Since most of them are middle class and white and live in the suburbs, if victimisation rates of people in that demographic are rising, my friends’ increased fearfulness is perfectly understandable.

He goes on and says:

What seems clear is that violent crime in the suburbs, especially robbery, is much more common than it was in the 1980s and early 1990s, largely because apartheid ensured that its beneficiaries enjoyed a degree of insulation from predatory criminals.

There is someone else who understands their situation. And this is Clive Swan of Bonaero Park in Kempton Park who says:

We seem to have become a nation of whingers, sending our offspring to seek paler climates as soon as they graduate. The US have traversed a crippling economic depression, unbelievable crime waves of gangster warfare in the 1920s, followed later by decades of mafia outrages. If they had followed our hand-wringing ethos, most of their population would have emigrated, but instead warts and all, they patriotically rolled up their sleeves and took charge of their country’s destiny. For goodness sake, South Africans get a life, get away from the negative call to skin colour attitudes. Join hands and make this country great. Then maybe your kids can come home to a bigot-free zone.

[Applause.]

Mr Jankielsohn has said certain things here, and I want to help him. It is our responsibility to help people who do not understand what we are doing in this country. Mr Jankielsohn is unhappy about the fact that the President has asked me to help the people of Burundi to overcome their difficulties. He says I must be here and fight crime. I thought that my responsibility was political and that those people over there and in the streets, as we speak, are fighting crime at the coalface of the problems that we have. But he can’t understand this. Firstly, the ANC has always been an internationalist organisation. And that being so, we have learnt to know the world as it is.

It is not you fault, hon Jankielsohn, that your own vision of the world is South Africa and ends in Zimbabwe. [Applause.] The fault is with your party that is not teaching you people to understand politics. A wise president would of course deploy a Minister of Safety and Security in his country to be proactive. You stop people who otherwise would flow into South Africa as a consequence of problems in their own countries from coming here. And what you then do is that you are deployed to deal with those situations, particularly because our own vision for the advancement of this country is peace and stability on the basis of one of the Freedom Charter’s clauses which says: ``There shall be peace and friendship!’’[Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S BOTHA): Order! Hon members, please keep the noise levels down. You may proceed, hon Minister.

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: I am sorry, Deputy Chairperson that you were going to be extended in trying to keep them in check, but this is the only thing they best know and I think that they must be allowed to continue to do it.

In terms of the Freedom Charter, we are enjoined to help stop problems in the countries, particularly those that are part of the African continent. Our vision of peace and stability has as one of its key elements safety and security. Therefore, if you allow masses of people to emigrate from their own countries because there are conflicts and when they arrive here there is no work for them, then there is a problem there. If there is not going to be accommodation for them, then there are problems there. If there is not going to be food for them, then there are problems there. And if you don’t understand therefore that the only resort they will have is crime, then my goodness, we have a bigger problem than I thought we had. Of course you won’t understand this because you don’t have a policy that deals with matters like that.

Again, somebody from their ranks came here and told a lie about police salaries. What a big lie! For goodness sake, these things are public. Just go to the records and you will find these answers. A police constable’s salary is R67 000 per annum. Go and check. These figures are available. Don’t come here and lie. Don’t do that.

Again, my other friend, the hon King, policing in South Africa must not be politicised. The hon Sotyu said that, the hon Ndlovu said that, the hon Van Wyk said that, the Deputy Minister said that, Mr Madikiza said that, hon Moatshe said that. All of these persons were all saying, let’s help the police because this is not an ANC government structure, but it is a structure for all our people. As the hon Likotsi was saying ``to protect our people, let’s all come and help’’. [Applause.]

But what do they do? They go into politics about policing, including Mr Jankielsohn who says he gets letters and that there is a particular sergeant who came to him and said, “I am not getting any promotion as a consequence of the racism in the police”. You know, Mr Jankielsohn, I don’t know what the unions think about the position that you have assigned to yourself as their spokesperson. [Laughter.] There are members here from the unions – Popcru and Sapu - that are working in the police. But what do we deal with all the time? Even during question time, they ask me: Will you indicate why so and so has not as yet received his retirement money? Why so and so has not been promoted? Those are matters for the unions, and if you believe that the unions are not equal to that task, I tell you as a person who works there with them, that they are equal to that task.

Regarding the many things that you people come and talk about here, that this restructuring is negative and what have you, I am going to tell you what one person from Popcru said the other day. He said, “Minister, we support the restructuring that is happening in the police because it will make things much better for our people because service delivery will be assured.” The hon Ndlovu has said the same thing and many others here have done the same. He said, “The problem that you are confronting is a problem of people who are in comfort zones and do not want to leave those comfort zones.” [Interjections.]

Of course, they have support from the hon members on that side of the House. Therefore every time they come to them they speak with authority on things that they don’t even understand. They will not understand these things because they don’t have policies. Or do they have policies? No, they have policies. What they do is that when we come here and place the strategies of our Ministry and the police before the House, two or three years later they regurgitate those same things and say, “Here is our policy”. So they do have policies. The fact that their policies come two or three years later all the time has nothing to do with us. It is their problem. It is not our problem.

You talked about racism in the police. I think you will be in trouble one time. There are many, many black police officers who have been constables for a long time, not as sergeants that you talked about. They have been constables for a long time. They want promotion. If you go to the next level you will find a broad band of black officers who want promotion. Of course, you are not bothered about them. You are bothered about the sergeant who wrote you a letter. That’s the person you are bothered about. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Order, please, hon members!

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: To the members who spoke on behalf of our people who solely require protection from the police, I want to give this report. There is someone who spoke here about police officers who become criminals. I have said this in the past; my predecessors, Steve Tshwete and Sydney Mufamadi also said it in the past, that those people in effect are not police persons, because the person who becomes and is registered as a police official is a peace officer. Their function is to ensure that they create conditions for peace and security in our country. Those are police officers. Those who become criminals get arrested and locked up. There are a number of them who are serving long terms of imprisonment as a result of criminality.

On 24 May there were people who went to Benoni police station and broke into a safe there that contained money. That is money that had been taken from crooks who robbed an aircraft that was coming into the country. We arrested those people and we continue to investigate that case. But the money that was retrieved had been locked away in that particular safe. Of course, we have arrested people with respect to the theft of that money from the Benoni police station. We have arrested nine suspects. Three of them are members of the police. We recovered some money but I won’t tell you how much. There are further investigations that are happening.

Those people, every one of them who was involved in this theft, are going to be arrested by the police. They do not belong to this country where we are defining circumstances for our people to live in peace and security. They do not belong to that effort in which, collectively, all our people are involved to ensure that indeed, in the end, we shall have put in place, in South Africa, a programme so that all our people can benefit. Those who are therefore undermining that programme are people we are going to deal with.

Of course, there are those whom we are unable to deal with because essentially they are not committing any crime. So those can continue to whinge away. They can continue to attack everything that we do. They can continue to be as negative as they want. In the end, it is the many people out there, who for many years have been crying for peace and stability in South Africa, who determine who rules this country. The whingers can do one of two things: They can continue to whinge until they are blue in the face and they can continue to be as negative as they want to, or they can simply leave this country so that all of the peace-loving South Africans, good South African people who want to make this a successful country, continue with their work.

As Clive Swan said:

For goodness sake, South Africans, get a life! Get away from the negative call to skin colour attitudes. Join hands and make this country great. Then, maybe your kids can come home to a bigot-free zone. Thank you very much.

[Applause.]

Debate concluded.

The House adjourned at 19:13. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1. Classification of Bill by Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM)

(1)    The JTM has reconsidered the classification of the Deeds
     Registries Amendment Bill [B 5 – 2006], and has, on 31 May 2006, in
     terms of Joint Rule 160(3) classified it as a section 75 Bill
     (original classification, see Announcements, Tablings and Committee
     Reports, 19 May 2006, p 725).

1. Draft Bills submitted in terms of Joint Rule 159

(1)     Repeal of the Black Administration Act and Amendment of Certain
     Laws Amendment Bill, 2006, submitted by the Minister for Justice
     and Constitutional Development on 1 June 2006. Referred to the
     Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development and
     the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs.

1. Introduction of Bills

 (1)    The Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development


      a) Repeal of the Black Administration Act and Amendment of
         Certain Laws Amendment Bill [B 11 – 2006] (National Assembly –
         sec 75) [Explanatory summary of Bill and prior notice of its
         introduction published in Government Gazette No 28898 of 31
         May 2006.]


     Introduction and referral to the Portfolio Committee on Justice
     and Constitutional Development of the National Assembly, as well
     as referral to the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for
     classification in terms of Joint Rule 160, on 1 June 2006.


     In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the classification of
     the Bill may be submitted to the JTM within three parliamentary
     working days.

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Speaker and the Chairperson

a) Activity Report of the Auditor-General for 2004-2005 [RP 231-2005].

COMMITTEE REPORTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

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National Assembly

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