WEDNESDAY, 16 AUGUST 2006 __

                PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

                                ____

The House met at 15:03.

The Deputy Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL REPLY

                   SOCIAL SERVICES AND GOVERNANCE
                              Cluster 2

MINISTERS:

             Progress made in eradicating bucket system

1. Ms T E Lishivha (ANC) asked the Minister of Water Affairs and Forestry:

   (a)What progress has been made in eradicating the bucket system in sanitation by 2007 and (b) what are the challenges in this regard? N1088E

The MINISTER OF WATER AFFAIRS AND FORESTRY: Madam Deputy Speaker, the answer is as follows: It is estimated that there are approximately 165 000 buckets in use in formal establishments in South Africa. By formal establishments we mean to those formal townships that are still using the bucket system of sanitation, which is below RDP standards.

The President has committed to the eradication of these buckets by the end of 2007. By December of this year, 63 602 buckets will be eradicated, and the remaining 102 310 will be eradicated by December 2007.

In this financial year, R400 million has been allocated to bucket eradication as compared to only R200 million that we got last year. A further R600 million has been allocated to bucket eradication in the 2007- 08 financial year.

However, we are in discussions with National Treasury to try to bring forward this allocation to enable us to meet the target of bucket eradication by December 2007. I thank you.

Muf T E LISHIVHA: Ndo livhuwa. Ndi khou livhuwa Vho-Minisiṱa phindulo yavho ye vha ṋea yone. Na u dovha hafhu nda takalela uri vho dovha vha wana nyengedzedzo ya masheleni a swikaho R400 million ane vha ḓo shumana nao u thusa u fhungudza mabunga a mabakete.

Mbudziso yanga ndi ya uri, naa muhasho wavho u na nḓila ine wa khou i shumisa naa u vhona uri mabunga a mabakete a khou fheliswa nga u ṱavhanya, nahone vha khou swikelela target naa? Hone-ha, hu na mvelaphanḓa ifhio zwa zwino u vhona uri hu na vhukoni na nḓivho kha kushumisele kwa masheleni nga u ṱavhanya. Ndo livhuwa. (Translation of Tshivenḓa paragraphs follows.)

[Ms T E LISHIVHA: I thank you. I thank the Minister for the reply. I am also happy that the Minister got increased funds of about R400 million, which will be used to eradicate the bucket system.

My question is: Does your department have a strategy to ensure that the bucket system is eradicated fast and also are you reaching the target? Is there any progress to show that there is ability and capacity in the utilisation of the funds? I thank you.]

The MINISTER OF WATER AFFAIRS AND FORESTRY: Thank you, hon member. Yes, the department is confident that with the expertise and capacity that we do have, and the support we are giving to municipalities, we are going to reach this target. It is necessary that the municipalities register the projects in their localities to eliminate buckets.

These projects are registered under the municipal infrastructure grant unit of the DPLG in order to receive funding, and we believe that by the end of August this year all projects that require funding under the bucket eradication programme will be registered.

Over and above that, in terms of capacity, the department has mobilised 21 engineers to support municipalities in all the phases of programme implementation, starting with assisting in the development of technical reports, including registration of projects as well as monitoring and evaluation.

It is notable that Mpumalanga has made a major achievement in terms of bucket eradication. They have made such significant progress that they intend to completely eradicate their buckets in established settlements by November 2006. So, hon member, we are confident that with all this preparation, registration of projects, lending capacity to municipalities but, more than ever, getting the necessary funding which we have submitted to Treasury, buckets will be eradicated by 2007.

Ms J A SEMPLE: Thank you, Minister. In your reply you indicated that there are still thousands of people who have to suffer the indignity of using the bucket system, and this is particularly degrading to women and often affects their security. So, it is quite right that we have set this target.

However, it would appear that at the current rate of application, some municipalities are not actually going to meet the target. Now, you have given us an indication of extra funding that is going to be applied for, and also how you are going to address capacity with the 21 engineers.

But, are you sufficiently confident that this is actually going to help, because there seems to be a chicken and egg situation here. Either the municipalities say they don’t have enough money, or if they do have the funds available, they don’t spend it, for example the MIG. Could you give us the assurance that you think that this is going to happen by 2007? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF WATER AFFAIRS AND FORESTRY: Thank you to the hon member. There are obviously challenges in the municipalities that have been identified with regard to bucket eradication – the nonavailability of technical and financial programmes and the lack of project management expertise in the municipalities. Our response to this challenge has been to make the 21 engineers available to municipalities to provide hands-on support.

There are obviously problems also with aligning sanitation with the housing programme. The issue of funding that the hon member raised is not a problem as we speak, as we have said that the amount of R400 million allocated to us is going to enable us to deal with some of the backlog this year. But in respect of the backlog to be eradicated by 2007, money allocated for next year will have to be brought forward to this year for us to be able to spend it in time to eradicate the bucket system in 2007.

So, this is not a shortage of money, but a question of capacity - the department working through the regions supporting all municipalities. But where we stand as the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry, we are confident that this target set by our President of eradicating the bucket system in the formal establishments is going to be met. Thank you.

Rev K R J MESHOE: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. The ACDP welcomes all efforts and plans to eradicate the unhealthy and humiliating bucket system that is still part of the new South Africa today, 12 years after the dawn of the democratic order. This system seriously undermines the constitutional right to dignity of our people.

In light of the fact that informal settlements are mushrooming all over the country, how is government going to ensure that the target date for eradicating this unhealthy system by 2007 is still achieved? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF WATER AFFAIRS AND FORESTRY: Hon Deputy Speaker, I think that we need to understand what we are talking about when we talk about eradication of the bucket system. There is inconsistent interpretation of the eradication backlog definition. It should be clear that, through this programme, we are addressing the eradication of buckets in the formal establishments and the townships.

When it comes to new informal settlements that have sprung up and are not being addressed by this programme, we hope to address those through the housing and human settlement programmes, in which we are working with Housing to ensure that as they upgrade or provide new houses for informal settlements, the basic services which include sanitation needs are also addressed and buckets are no longer used.

Dr R RABINOWITZ: Minister, a South African invention is a loo called the Enviroloo, which has a vent to the exterior, and it enables the sewerage to be dried and reused either as fuel or as compost. Is this one of the alternatives that is being used to replace the bucket system? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF WATER AFFAIRS AND FORESTRY: Yes, it is indeed one of the alternatives being used. It is being applied already in the country. But what we have discovered is that, whilst this technology is useful because in the long run it will assist not only with our sanitation problems but could, if properly applied, lead to recycling of the matter, the only challenge is that there is resistance from some communities and some municipalities to using the system.

As a government department, we are looking at alternative systems which will enable us to make sure that we give access to sanitation to our people in the best possible way. So, we are talking to municipalities that are working with the Department of Science and Technology to look at how we can improve on whatever we have put in place as far as sanitation is concerned. Thank you.

Role of National Co-ordinating Committee (Nacoc) in organising and staging national school sports tournaments

1. Mr B M Komphela (ANC) asked the Minister of Sport and Recreation:

   (1) What is the role of the National Co-ordinating Committee (Nacoc) in organising and staging national school sports tournaments in terms of the original memorandum of understanding with Sport and Recreation South Africa regarding this matter;

   (2) whether, in light of the recently held national school sports events, his department and Nacoc have succeeded in implementing their stated policy objectives in terms of the funding and participation at such events; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details;

   (3) whether any mechanisms are in place to monitor and rectify logistical challenges associated with organising national school sports events; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? N1077E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Chairperson, the role of the National Co-ordinating Committee, Nacoc, is to sanction, co-ordinate, manage and monitor all national competitive school sports programmes. Nacoc has left the actual organisation and management of the tournaments to the departments in conjunction with the provinces and the local organising committee.

As far as the second part of the question is concerned, I believe that the department has succeeded in implementing our stated policy objectives, because since January 2006 the department has successfully hosted and funded the following events: the National Primary Schools Aquatics Championships in East London, Buffalo City; the National Secondary Schools Aquatics Championships in Germiston, Ekhuruleni; the National Primary Schools Athletics Championships in Durban, Ethekwini; the National Secondary Schools Athletics Championships in Sasolburg; and the national under-17 team participated in the Athletics Championships of the Confederation of School Sports Associations of Southern Africa, Cossasa, in Namibia this year.

In addition, there was the national all-ages tournament for soccer, netball, volleyball and basketball, which was hosted in Rustenburg; the national under-16s and under-18s hockey tournaments for boys and girls in Potchefstroom and Pietermaritzburg; and Team SA’s participation in athletics and aquatics at the International School Sports Federation Gymnastraeda in Athens and Thessaloníki, Greece, this year.

All these tournaments went off smoothly, except for accommodation challenges in Sasolburg and Rustenburg where there was limited accommodation of an acceptable standard. However, problems were resolved during the tournaments. We have committed ourselves not to centralise national school sports events in the major cities, but rather to take them to smaller towns and cities. We are, however, confronted by certain challenges when we take these events to smaller cities.

As far as the third part of the question is concerned, based on the experience of the past, the department will make sure that all events and venues are inspected by the code convenors and provincial general managers before each event. The department will also assign a more senior person to be part of the local organising committee so that the organisation can be monitored and the logistical challenges identified timeously. Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr C T FROLICK: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. Thank you for the reply, Deputy Minister. Earlier this year the portfolio committee had a delegation in the Eastern Cape on a study tour. When we visited two schools in Port Elizabeth – the Northern Lights School and another school for the physically challenged in Mthatha - we were confronted with a situation in which they were at odds, because they could simply not raise the necessary funds to participate in a national event that was supposed to be held in the Free State.

My question is: How far is the department from succeeding in ensuring that all these different tournaments, that are organised under the auspices of the department and the National Co-ordinating Committee, are funded so that we can ensure that even those children who are physically challenged also benefit from the policy that government has implemented? Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Chairperson - thank you to the hon Frolick - the funding is obviously a budgetary challenge that we are all facing. As we speak, of the R70 million that we as a department had available this year, R50 million was transferred to the provinces to make the mass participation programme in school sports possible. That programme will be launched very shortly in conjunction and collaboration with the partners of this programme – the Department of Education. We have funded the competitive school sports, as we mentioned, to the tune of R16,2 million. May I just mention that this didn’t cost any student who took part a dime.

The other R20 million that we have left for the mass participation programme this year will be used for training and supplying the necessary equipment in all those areas. In a nutshell, it’s a budgetary challenge. We did ask for more money in this coming circle, and let’s see what the outcome will be. But as we speak, we are reaching 798 schools, mostly in the poverty nodes in this country.

Mr J H VAN DER MERWE: Madam Deputy Speaker, may I rise on a point of order?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What is your point of order, hon member?

Mr J H VAN DER MERWE: The point of order is that I wish to congratulate Madam Deputy Speaker on her birthday today. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you, but that is not a point of order. [Laughter.]

Mr S J MASANGO: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Deputy Minister, we know that the United School Sports Association of SA, Ussasa, is the one that was running school sports programmes. What I want to know is: whether the school sports programmes currently run by the National Co-ordinating Committee are far better than the one that was run by Ussasa? If not, why not; if so, could you tell us what the benefits are of changing from Ussasa to Nacoc?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Deputy Speaker, the hon Masango may know that it was by mutual agreement that the structures of Nacoc would accommodate and absorb the expertise that we had in Ussasa. School sport, we believe, needs to be in the hands of the teachers because they are the implementers of school sport. That is why in the agreement that we have signed, we agreed that 70% of the people there would be teachers.

May I just say that I don’t want to pronounce on how successful Ussasa was or wasn’t. The only thing I am prepared to say is that Nacoc is co- ordinating very well and that the tournaments that I attended this year went smoothly and I see only a rosy future for Nacoc. Thank you.

Adv Z L MADASA: Thank you, hon Deputy Minister, for your reply. As you are well aware, encouraging sport at school is a critical element of the promotion of transformation in sport, because it increases the pool from which selectors in various sporting codes can access sportspersons. So, this is a critical programme for the national transformation of sport. That is a comment. My question is whether you are of the opinion that there is a sufficient budget to support this crucial aspect of transformation in sport, especially with regard to infrastructure at various schools. Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Deputy Chair, we are in absolute agreement with the hon Madasa …

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Deputy Minister, you referred to “Chair” earlier on and I thought it was a slip up, but now you are referring to the “Deputy Chair”. Is there anything that you know that we don’t know? [Laughter.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: I apologise, Ma’am.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you. … especially on my birthday! Please don’t demote me. [Laughter.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Deputy Speaker, we are in absolute agreement with the hon Madasa that school sport and also physical education in school form the absolute basis for transformation. They are, in fact, the critical part of transformation. Linked to that is creating opportunities for those that never had the opportunities before and were excluded from those opportunities. By creating a bigger pool, we will see the transformation coming through, as we are seeing in certain sporting codes right now.

So, we are facing a challenge in terms of funding because the cake is only so big. What we must do, and this is our challenge, is to see how we can optimise the funds available in the municipal infrastructure grant and therefore we will also have to engage the local authorities to see that we put their facilities on a shared basis for schools and communities. We will have to manage that.

Secondly, we will have to make very sure that the money we get from the Treasury is optimised and stretched to the utmost so that we bring the opportunities to those people that are much in need of that.

Ms S RAJBALLY: Deputy Speaker, happy birthday to you.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you, ma’am.

Ms S RAJBALLY: Minister, it is very encouraging to hear you say that so much work is going to be done in schools. My question is: Do you feel that if we build more infrastructure and have more recreation at schools, we will be saving our children in that they will be indulging in sport and recreation instead of having the time to do drugs and alcohol?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Deputy Speaker, to the hon member, this goes much wider than only school-going children. It speaks to communities and the entire population of this country. Yes, the more people we get active the more often, the better it will be for this country and it will definitely have an impact and also reflect on the budget of the Department of Health. Thank you.

                 Khomanani HIV–prevention programme

1. Mr G R Morgan (DA) asked the Minister of Health:

   (1) With regard to her department’s flagship HIV-prevention programme Khomanani, (a) when did the most recent contract to administer this programme expire, (b) why was the contract allowed to expire before a new invitation to tender was advertised and (c) who is the person(s) responsible for advertising and administering the respective tender process and contract;

   (2) whether her department had conducted an ongoing assessment of the Khomanani programme in order to outline the successes and failures of the campaign; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? N989E

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Question 92 has been asked by the hon G R Morgan of the Minister of Health. However, I would like to inform the House that neither the Minister nor the Deputy Minister is available to reply to the question. The Minister is out of the country and the Deputy Minister has had a bereavement in the family. The reply will be printed in Hansard.

Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Deputy Speaker, may I address you on that point please? It’s the same issue as always when it comes to questions. We did hear that the Minister was not available. We were told that the Deputy Minister would be available, and it was only a matter of hours before Question Time took place that we heard that the Deputy Minister would not be available. Again, I urge the ANC to make sure that opposition parties are given plenty of warning when Ministers are not available. Thank you.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The only unfortunate thing is that bereavement doesn’t give you any warning. It happens when you least expect it.

We now come to Question 117 which has been asked by the hon A M Mpontshane of the Minister of Education.

Allegations by National Teachers Union (NATU) regarding no-fee schools policy

1. Mr A M Mpontshane (IFP) asked the Minister of Education:

   Whether her department plans to investigate the allegations recently made by the National Teachers Union (NATU) that the no-fee schools policy has seriously affected teaching at some rural schools and placed the lives of principals at risk; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? N1097E

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. May I join other members in wishing you a happy birthday? In reply to the question: no complaints have been lodged with my department or with myself. The administration of no-fee schools is a provincial matter, and is being managed by the KwaZulu-Natal education department. I did, however, note the concern raised by Natu at their national conference.

The department’s payment of its no-fee contribution to some schools was delayed, partly because of late communication from schools on funding required for operating expenses, and partly because of delays in schools setting up bank accounts. The KwaZulu-Natal education department has assisted all nonsection 21 schools to open bank accounts and the necessary transfers have now been effected.

Section 21 schools have been instructed to account for their failure to submit audited annual financial statements as required by law, and to submit annual financial statements on time in future. The department in KwaZulu-Natal issued a press statement on 21 July to clarify policy around no-fee schools. I would direct the hon Mpontshane to read an article in the Daily Sun this morning. [Interjections.] Yes, Daily Sun, not Die Son, which illustrates some of the positive impacts of the no-fee schools policy.

Prince N E ZULU: Siyabonga, Somlomo [Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.] Minister, it is unfortunate that this is being experienced in the province of KwaZulu-Natal. That is why there is an understanding now, or perhaps you may call it a perception, that the province is being made a pilot province in this no-fee schools policy. Do you agree to that or would you put it differently?

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I don’t know what the hon member means. We have nine provinces in the country. Eight out of nine have voluntarily implemented the no-fee schools policy. From next year all nine provinces will be implementing it. There is no piloting of the policy, and there is no experimentation with any province in the country.

Over 2 million children currently benefit from the no-fee schools policy. So where the notion of piloting in a particular province arises, I am not quite sure. But eight out of nine provinces have already implemented it. A pilot usually refers to the selection of one out of many, but when the majority does a thing, it cannot scientifically be termed a pilot.

Mr G G BOINAMO: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and happy birthday too. Hon Minister, could you apologise for the mess that you and your department have caused in the schools by not paying the subsidies so that the no-fee schools can run properly? Thank you. [Interjections.]

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Mr Boinamo, you have used rather unfortunate language. There is no mess. You would have to indicate where there is a mess, particularly when I cite a school, which would normally ask parents to pay R25 a year and which would find in that year that less than 10% of the parents were able to pay. That school, in terms of the no-fee schools policy, now receives the adequacy amount of R525 per child, when previously it was R25 from parents who could not pay.

So, I do not know where the disadvantage accrues in such a context. What I have indicated is that where there have been problems - and there are some schools and some districts where there have been - we have addressed these. I do not believe there is a mess, however. That is your choice of language in order to sensationalise the empty question that you have asked. [Applause.]

       Reported deficiencies in provision of quality education

1. Mr R P Z van den Heever (ANC) asked the Minister of Education:

   (1) Whether her department has a program of action to address the reported deficiencies in the provision of quality education as outlined by the Human Rights Commission; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what are the relevant details;

   (2) whether she will make a statement on the matter? N1079E

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Madam Deputy Speaker, with respect to the question, the reply is as follows: We have, as a department, paid serious attention to the Human Rights Commission’s report on the public hearing on the right to basic education. We have engaged fully with the recommendations of the HRC. I have had a number of constructive meetings with the chairperson and I indeed agree with many of the recommendations that are proposed in the report.

My department is in the process of finalising a written response so that we can give renewed force and attention to those areas in which work is already under way and to initiate action where such action is required. As soon as we finalise our response, the aspects that may require legislative or regulatory attention will form part of the strategic plan of the department.

I do not intend to make a statement at this stage, but will do so once we finalise our report, which we have agreed with the HRC that we will present to them in a meeting between my Ministry, the department and themselves.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I now call on the hon Van den Heever.

Mr B MTHEMBU: Thank you, Deputy Speaker.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: You are not Mr … Oh alright. Hon member, please take the floor.

Mr B MTHEMBU: Hon Minister, could you comment on the following assertion, namely that the department’s intervention has resulted in more than 95% of universal primary education and, therefore, that it will be possible to reach the 100% target as a target set by Unesco with regard to the Millennium Development Goals? This in itself indicates the department’s commitment to basic education for all.

The department is spending more than 6% of GDP, which is the international norm for spending, and in line with the Accra Agreement of 2000. However, the challenge that we are facing seems to be that there is tension between providing quality education while, simultaneously, addressing the huge backlog left by the apartheid regime.

It is a question of either or and therefore the department has decided that it would be better to set education for all as a priority – a question of sequencing - and then progressively moving towards quality education for all. This is because of the fact that there are limited resources and that there are competing demands to address the backlogs. Your comment, Minister?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Minister, your comment. [Laughter.]

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Well, I don’t think that that is a follow-up question. From my reply I think those are far more complex set of issues that have been raised. I think, Madam Deputy Speaker, we need to be fairly wary of inserting in the recommendations of Unesco aspirations that we may have as a nation.

For example, the belief that you can achieve 100% enrolment tends to neglect a number of facts, such as the fact of children who don’t wish to be in school, the fact of families and communities that might be nomadic. So, there is a whole range of factors that impact upon the percentage that might be out of school and for which you might need to make a range of different provisions. We are looking at this category of what are termed vulnerable children in order to see what form of flexible arrangement can be made for them.

The second point is that certainly while there are backlogs, no system should neglect the intention of achieving quality, because quality is associated with learning. However, in South Africa one of the things we need to accept is that we had 350 years of damage, and we are trying, in a very short space of time, to ensure that we improve what is offered in our schooling system. And, 12 years certainly cannot compete with 350 years, despite the great progress we have made.

The third aspect is that our government invests a large amount of resources in education. Over 20% of the national budget has been devoted to support for the costs of education. What is, of course, a negative factor, in terms of achieving our objectives and aspirations, is that in terms of cultural capital - an ability to support education - the majority of the population you are dealing with is poor, is not of a middle-class character, and therefore cannot act as a partner to teachers and schooling to support children in learning.

This means, in terms of resources available in schools, that you need to be able to bridge the gap between the ability of parents, and the teaching and resourcing in schools. We are attempting to do this with the provision of infrastructure, learning, teaching, support materials and a range of other measures. But what we have to realise is that changing our educational system in order to achieve the level of quality that every society desires is part of a long haul that we have to undertake as a society.

In general terms, I agree with the hon Mthembu’s statements as to where we want to go in terms of achieving educational change in South Africa.

Mr V C GORE: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. On behalf of the ID we would like to wish you a happy birthday as well.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you.

Mr V C GORE: Minister, I would like to thank you for your responses to this. I would like to focus on a particular issue, which is very close to my heart and to that of another 7 million people in South Africa and that is the issue of education for people with disabilities.

We have exchanged ideas and we have engaged on this very serious issue in the past, and I would like to thank you for those engagements, particularly the hard work that has been done by your department in this regard, especially the White Paper on Inclusive Education.

However, I would like to ask you, Madam Minister, whether the issues raised in the Human Rights Commission’s report on basic education, particularly around access to education for people with disabilities and special-needs learners, have been taken note of by the department and whether the policy programme, as envisaged by the Education White Paper on Inclusive Education, will be speeded up, and what resources will be put into improving the situation for learners with special needs or learners with disabilities. I thank you.

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Thank you very much for that question. We certainly are looking at the recommendations, as I have said, of the HRC with respect to the education of children with disabilities. One of the immediate steps we have taken is to assign a Heads of Education Departments subcommittee to examine our progress with respect to inclusive education.

Secondly, we have engaged the support of policy-makers in New Zealand and members of the education department in New Zealand who worked on inclusive education. As you know, our policy mirrors very closely the New Zealand policy.

In fact, on Monday I had a meeting with Professor Mitchell who is here in South Africa from New Zealand, spending some weeks with us and looking at our resource schools and at whether we are supporting them effectively to really be the cluster support, as the schools begin to be inclusive schools throughout the districts in the country.

He has indicated to me that our policies are, in fact, excellent policies given that he is one of the crafters of the New Zealand policy. He would say that. But he has alerted us to the fact that the distance between policy and implementation can be very wide. But he believes our choice of beginning with a set of schools rather than a full roll-out of the policy is an important approach.

Therefore, the piloting of starting with these 30 fully resourced schools and moving to 140 is, in his view, a very good approach that South Africa has adopted. But he will be visiting every district, looking at each of the centres we are establishing and then giving us an evaluation of our progress.

While that is happening, we are of course continuing with our plans. Teachers in schools are being trained in each of the districts. We are beginning to select schools which should be more inclusive. But of course, I have, as we discussed with you, indicated to the department that inclusive education doesn’t mean that there isn’t a need to continue supporting and resourcing special schools because children have different disabilities.

You can’t just assume that any school should be open to accept a child that might have a set of disabilities that require special support and so on. So all of this forms part of the package that we are addressing.

Mr G R MORGAN: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. Madam Minister, the delivery of basic education is indeed critical for the success of our children’s future and for creating a society of opportunity. The relevant Human Rights Commission report referred to in the question says that without reliable information, monitoring and gathering systems, the state will not be well placed in many instances to counter challenges that are violating the right to basic education. As the report says, each day we continue to fail many of our country’s children.

Madam Minister, what efforts are being made to establish adequate and reliable monitoring systems in all district offices that can be used to assess the delivery of quality basic education? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Well, hon member, I hope in looking at our Budget Votes last year and this year, you would have seen the provision we have made to improve our education management information system.

I am very concerned that in order to adequately respond to the challenges that you face in a system, you must have adequate data, and data that you can manage in order to make decisions as to how to respond within a system. So you would have noted one in the Western Cape, namely the records base that we are building with respect to children in our schools. It’s something we haven’t had.

You would have noted my responses earlier this year with respect to data on teachers in the system subject areas they are teaching in. So efforts are being made. We are working with the private sector - I wouldn’t want to mention the companies by name – with companies that are renowned in other countries for having assisted in the development of very well constructed education management systems, which give you instantaneous data when you need it.

I met with the head of education in New South Wales because they have a very good system, that is their education management information system. So this is something we are looking at. But we’ve gone a long way in the department, because there has been years of building up this management system in education.

I think that we are now at a point where we would be able to begin to produce data on what is happening in our schools on a daily basis. I would like us to get to that point. So we are investing in better information technology systems, and also in the human resources that can manipulate and extract the data as well as place it on the system.

We have changed the nature of the form that is sent out to schools to collect information at the beginning of the year, in the middle of the year, at the end of the year. Therefore, I think, a range of efforts is being pursued to ensure that our Emis - the education management information system - is of the first rank.

    Report of Van Zyl Slabbert Commission on SA electoral system

1. Mrs P de Lille (ID) asked the Minister of Home Affairs:

   (1) Whether the report of the Van Zyl Slabbert Commission on the South African electoral system has been evaluated; if not, why not; if so,

   (2) whether the government has accepted the recommendations contained in this report; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details;

   (3) whether the proposed new electoral system will be put in place by 2009; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what are the relevant details? N929E

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Hon members, yes, indeed, government received the report of the Van Zyl Slabbert commission and noted its contents on 5 March 2003. Subsequently, a statement was issued on behalf of our government at a media briefing. As members may recall, Cabinet instructed the then Minister of Home Affairs to distribute the document to the media and the public, and this was done.

Furthermore, it was agreed that the current government, constituted on the basis of the 2004 elections, would take responsibility for ensuring that public engagement on the matter took place in preparation for the 2009 election. Now that the matter has been raised in this House, it is incumbent upon us that we present it to Cabinet for further consideration, and we will certainly report back to Parliament at the appropriate time. Thank you.

Mrs P DE LILLE: Thank you, hon Minister, for your response. Is there any way that you can indicate to us whether, in terms of the public consultation process you are going to start now after the Cabinet decision, that we will have some kind of review of our electoral system before 2009? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Thanks, hon De Lille. I think that the first step, now that you have raised the matter, would be for us to go to Cabinet and remind it that the previous Cabinet gave us this mandate. Obviously, the rest will now be the responsibility of the constituencies and political parties to make representations. Obviously, we will have to set a process in motion for people to give feedback from their constituencies.

Whether or not that will happen through a parliamentary process is a matter that we will all have to agree on. I must say that we have not been seized with the matter as yet, but obviously we will have to begin now because 2009 is just around the corner. Maybe that process would have to be agreed on by the political parties represented here, because all of us received this report in 2003.

I am sure that the process of consultation by political parties with their constituencies must have happened over the past three years. So this is not a process that should be decided upon by Cabinet, but Cabinet should just take a decision about when that process should begin. Thank you.

Mr M SWART: Chair, I was very pleased with the reply of the Minister. We are very pleased, Minister, that this matter is receiving attention. We were just wondering whether it is the intention of government to work more or less on the basis of the system that is currently used in local government in terms of which ward councillors are responsible for their wards and everybody knows in that ward who is responsible for that specific ward, whether this is on the proportional side in that all parties are virtually represented in the proportional system and whether the intention of government is that we would have something of that operation.

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Mr Swart, you didn’t understand me. I didn’t say that the government is seized with this matter. I said government received the report and took a decision that the incoming government after the elections in 2004 would be the one that would take that process forward.

I’m saying, now that Ms De Lille has raised that matter, that it is incumbent upon us as parties to then take a decision after going to Cabinet. This is because then I need to go back to Cabinet to remind Cabinet that we had been mandated that once we were in office, we needed to pursue this matter.

So we have not taken a decision about what should happen or what will happen in 2009. But I must say that one of the things mentioned in the statement that was issued by Cabinet at the time was that Cabinet was happy about the recommendation to retain the 400 seats.

How we reach that is a matter that will be decided through consultation with all the parties after this consultation process, which has been going on between yourselves – political parties – and your constituencies. So I have not committed myself as to how we will get to the 400 seats. I know that next time you will say that I misled Parliament. So I’m very careful with my words. Thank you.

Mr S N SWART: Thank you, Deputy Chair. Hon Minister, my question has basically been covered by the previous question, but I would like to point out to you that one of the complaints that does arise is the issue of accountability of public representatives to the electorate. This was one of the issues raised in the Van Zyl Slabbert commission. Obviously, one of the recommendations was to look at the PR list/constituency system.

Now, I appreciate that this will be looked at, but in the meantime, how do you feel, hon Minister? Can we be more accountable to our electorate, bearing in mind and given that we have constituency offices and we also have constituency periods? Is there not a greater sense that we can look at this issue and possibly also look at the issue of floor-crossing, concerning which a lot of voters feel that it results in voter apathy as MPs are allowed to cross the floor? Thank you. The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: I didn’t think that we were getting into a political discussion about that matter. However, certainly, from my party, all public representatives are held to account. I don’t know how you people ensure accountability in your party.

Concerning the issue of floor-crossing, it is a matter that, as you know, all of us are discussing and one that has been explained repeatedly how it was arrived at and who proposed it. In fact, for us in the majority party, it is a devil that we have to stick with, which actually we did not want initially. We never wanted to get to the position we now find ourselves in.

So, I think, it is a matter that we must continue to engage in until we reach some decision at some point. I don’t know where, how and when we shall reach that decision. But the point is that we find ourselves in this predicament because of some people who made this kind of proposal and pushed to make sure that a decision was reached on it. Now we are stuck with this issue of floor-crossing, and all of us are stuck in this marriage.

Mr A HARDING: Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Minister, as you said earlier, 2009 is around the corner. The question that immediately arises in my mind is that given that changes to the electoral system may be very intricate and may be very complicated, do you think that we will have enough time to implement the system before the 2009 elections? Thank you. The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Sure, we will. It is now 2006, and we have three years to go. And if there is a need for any changes, we will certainly, if it is agreed to, have to amend the Electoral Act. Thank you.

   Measures to ensure optimal benefits in forestry for previously
                        disadvantaged people

1. Mr K Moonsamy (ANC) asked the Minister of Water Affairs and Forestry:

   As the Broad-Based Black Economic Empowerment Charter in forestry is being finalised, what measures are considered by her department to ensure that previously disadvantaged people will receive optimal benefits in forestry? N1085E

The MINISTER OF WATER AFFAIRS AND FORESTRY: Thank you, Chair. The forestry sector, as we all know, is of strategic importance to the economy, contributing about R14 billion annually, which represents about 1% of the total GDP of our country and provides some 170 000 jobs to our people. Most of these jobs are in the rural areas, where unemployment is high. If you include family dependants, we can say that 870 000 people rely on this sector for survival.

The problem, however, is that the forestry sector is still largely white and male-dominated, and characterised by large disparities in access to opportunities and benefits for black people, particularly women. That is the reason the government saw fit to launch the forestry charter process, in order to support the transformation of this sector. Forestry as a sector is regulated by government and is subject to licensing by government, and has to comply with our legislation as well as codes of good practice.

As government, we intend to use the regulatory tools we possess in the issuing of licences, the regulation of the sector and through procurement of goods to ensure that historically disadvantaged people benefit from forestry activities and that the growing of trees benefits a broader spectrum of the population along the value chain.

It is necessary therefore that through our broad-based BEE in the forestry sector, we also stimulate growth of the sector and encourage beneficiation and value addition downstream. To this end my department is committed to streamlining …

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Minister, will you conclude, please?

The MINISTER OF WATER AFFAIRS AND FORESTRY: As a department, some of the measures we are employing are to ensure that we streamline and speed up the process of afforestation licensing to ensure that new forests are planted. Thank you. Mr K MOONSAMY: Thank you, Chairperson. Thank you, Comrade Minister, for your elaborate response. Mine is a somewhat longwinded question. What plans are being made by the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry to implement sustainable broad-based black empowerment on a long-term basis, such as co- operatives after the adoption of the forestry charter? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF WATER AFFAIRS AND FORESTRY: Chairperson, I think the forestry sector charter will play a critical role in ensuring sustainable broad-based black economic empowerment in the forestry industry. Through the charter we are looking at having support instruments, instruments that will support skills development targets, which means that companies that are operating in this industry will have to meet certain targets in terms of the training and capacity-building of people involved in the industry, particularly those that are participating in the acquisition of either equity in existing companies or those that are participating as new owners of new forests. We are expecting established companies to play a role here, and there will be targets in the forestry charter to make sure that they comply.

We also hope to use an instrument to support enterprise development targets, which will include access to funds and financial services for emerging black entrepreneurs; capacity-building and business support for them; instruments to support preferential procurement targets which will aim to ensure equitable and sustainable contracting; and employment practices through the industry codes of good practice.

As you know, as a government we procure large products that are by-products of the main products of forestry, and through our procurement systems we’ll need to ensure that companies from whom we procure are transformed companies and that they comply with the procurement targets that will be set out in the charter. Do I still have time?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Twelve seconds.

The MINISTER OF WATER AFFAIRS AND FORESTRY: Well, financial instruments are also going to be part of the charter process. We intend to investigate a special fund that will assist emerging and small growers in the forestry charter.

Ms J A SEMPLE: Thank you, Chair. Madam Minister, one of the major benefits of BEE is its potential for growth. South Africa’s high unemployment can only be addressed by a growth economy and the opportunity to create jobs. How will the BEE charter in forestry contribute to such a growth environment, which will create jobs and opportunities for previously disadvantaged people in the industry?

I am referring particularly to areas such as the Southern Cape where plantations have been closed down, causing hundreds of people in those communities to lose their jobs and staff housing. What alternative measures does the Minister envisage that are available to keep these people in employment through the BEE process?

The MINISTER OF WATER AFFAIRS AND FORESTRY: Thank you, Chairperson. As part of the charter process, obviously we are looking at established companies to assist us in terms of transformation. As we transform, more people become participants, especially people in the areas where forests are situated. But we are also looking at afforestation, that is new forests being planted in the areas of KwaZulu-Natal as well as in the Eastern Cape. Through that we are hoping to create jobs and ensure that the forestry industry grows.

The hon member has spoken about plantations that are closing down. We do have forests that belong to government that we call category B and C, which are forests that have not yet been made available to the private sector. We intend to make sure that through our institutions that will be established those forests either become part of the new afforestation or are brought to a profit-making level so that they can then be transferred to the historically disadvantaged people of our country.

We believe that the identification of forestry as one of the Asgisa projects will enable us to target and deal with the challenges faced in this area, which as the hon member says, is job creation and poverty eradication in the rural areas. Updating of passport control facilities in light of 2010 World Cup tournament

1. Mr F Beukman (ANC) asked the Minister of Home Affairs:

   Whether her department has embarked on a programme with Airports Company South Africa (ACSA) and SA Airways (SAA) to ensure that facilities for migration passport control are updated in light of the 2010 World Cup tournament and the anticipated number of visitors; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? N1081E

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Chairperson, I would like to assure the hon members that the department has indeed adopted a programme and plans for the 2010 Fifa Soccer World Cup to ensure that our ports of entry are ready for the anticipated high volumes of visitors.

These programmes are co-ordinated by our newly established 2010 office, working together with the Border Control Operational Co-ordinating Committee – BCOCC - which co-ordinates all stakeholders at various ports of entry and includes the Airports Company of SA, Acsa. I have been in constant consultation with the Board of Airline Representatives of SA – Barsa - which includes SA Airways.

As part of the plan, we will be increasing our IT and human resource capacity in our foreign offices to ensure that visitors are able to make applications for the necessary permits and visas well in advance and without any major hassles. Currently, we provide consular services in 46 missions abroad and we hope to increase this number by 2010.

It is true that with these platforms and structures we will continue to engage our overall co-ordination for the implementation of the 2010 plans. Thank you, Chair.

Mr F BEUKMAN: Thank you, Chair. Thank you, hon Minister, for the very comprehensive reply. It’s evident that the department is doing its homework with regard to the control challenges that we are going to face in 2010. The ANC welcomes the proactive approach by the Minister and the department. It is important that all political parties in this House give recognition to the Minister and the department to ensure that the problems related to migration control are tackled head-on.

There have been two major issues in the past few months: the personal intervention of the Minister at the Beit Bridge crossing in April to ensure that during the peak period there were sufficient resources to deal with the huge number of visitors; and the establishment of the ministerial task team to investigate the challenges facing migration control at the international airports and to provide solutions.

We recognise that this proactive approach of the Minister is the correct approach. Minister, in relation to your reply: What structures are currently in place at the international airports to ensure that all relevant stakeholders, especially Acsa, are working in unison with regard to the challenges facing us with regard to migration control?

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon members, if you visit an airport, particularly the two major international airports, namely the Cape Town International Airport and the Johannesburg International Airport, you will find that any time you are based there that there is a co- ordinating structure to ensure that if there any hiccups in our immigration systems there are people who will quickly come together to ascertain where the bottlenecks are and try to resolve them.

Secondly, we have people who are stationed there at a supervisory level to ensure that in the event of immigration officers having problems, they are able to give guidance on how to tackle those problems. This is a measure we did not have in the past in which, at times, immigration officers would not have supervisors on the spot at senior managerial level who would be able to intervene and give guidance in the event of an immigration officer encountering problems which he or she could not resolve.

So, what you have on the ground are floor supervisors and a queue management system. This is because some of the complaints we have had to deal with are actually things which are very insignificant, for instance people complaining about queue management. You now have queue managers and supervisors who are even supervising those sorts of things, so that you don’t have people standing in the queues longer than 30 minutes without receiving the necessary attention.

Mr M SWART: Minister, one of the facilities your department has to provide is a holding centre at the airports, which will be for the visitors and migrants who enter the country with invalid travel documents such as passports and visas.

During a recent visit to Johannesburg International Airport by the portfolio committee, it was found that there were 20 males - 16 Ethiopians and four Chinese - in one room. The linen and blankets provided did not look fresh, the room had no ventilation either in the form of windows or air-conditioning and the smell was not good. The persons who had been held there had not been visited by a nurse or a doctor. Given that they are held there until the next available flight back to their country of origin, which might be anything up to a week, the possibility of infection is high in such a contained environment. In 2010 we may see an influx of thousands of fans with invalid travel documents. What plans does the Minister have in place to upgrade holding centres at all the international airports?

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Mr Swart, thank you for the visit to the airport, and thank you for raising this matter. But, please, you have to acknowledge the fact that we do not own the airport; it is a building, which belongs to Acsa. There are really situations which are beyond our control. But it is good to raise the matter because it is a matter of concern.

If we had released those people, you would appreciate that by now they would have disappeared and we would not have been able to track and trace them. If you release some of the people or let them out of the airport, you won’t be able to find them, but, on the other hand, you find that these are instances when you can’t even send the people to Lindela. But we have to take some measures to stop them from entering the country.

The challenge is to find space at the airport. And, as you can appreciate, there are buildings, there is infrastructure that is being built right now at the airport. So it is really a situation beyond the control of the Department of Home Affairs. Thank you, Mr Swart, and thank you for visiting the airport. [Applause.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): We now proceed to Question 118. Question 97 the Minister has requested to stand over. The member has been consulted. Question 112 has been withdrawn. Therefore we come to Question 118 by the hon Skosana to the hon Minister for the Public Service and Administration. Hon Minister? Oh, I saw that she was here. Shall we proceed with the next question, Question 99, and we will come back to that question if the Minister returns.

Investigation into events surrounding postponement of Leila Ali fight

1. Mr M M Dikgacwi (ANC) asked the Minister of Sport and Recreation:

   (1) Whether his department has entered into discussions with Boxing South Africa to prevent a reoccurrence of the events surrounding the postponement of the Leila Ali fight; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details;

   (2) whether an investigation will be instituted to establish the facts surrounding the abovementioned fight; if not, why not;

   (3) whether the investigation will include the alleged fraudulent use of official stationery to solicit sponsorships and funding for the event; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? N1078E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Chairperson, with regard to the first part of the question: yes, we are awaiting a formal and written report from Boxing SA. The issues that we raised with Boxing SA were how the promoter was given a licence given his record, which emerged post facto; and, how the fight was authorised, given the circumstances around Star-Trade and its integrity as a company.

With regard to the second part of the question, Boxing SA we are told that Boxing SA has done the investigation, and the outcome of that investigation will constitute the report that is still to be delivered to us.

With regard to the third part of the question: yes, the allegation of a fraudulent signature of one of our officials is being investigated. The matter is being investigated both in terms of the Public Service Act and in terms of criminal law.

We are also investigating the fact that the departmental logo was used next to that of Star-Trade. This is a criminal law investigation and we are still awaiting the outcomes of all these investigations. Thank you.

Mr B M KOMPHELA: Thank you, Chair, and Deputy Minister. We will respect all the processes that the department has put in place, but I think it would be very interesting for the matter, at a later stage when it has been concluded, to be heard, because it would have been a very good gesture for women in our country had that fight materialised with that icon of women. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): I’m not sure that there is a follow- up question, Minister, so you are not obliged to respond. But you apparently want to.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Deputy Chair, I’d just like to say to the hon Komphela that we share the same sentiment and we will definitely make the outcomes public.

Mr S J MASANGO: Thank you, Chairperson. Deputy Minister, I think you would agree with me that this incident is an embarrassment to our country and that it should not have occurred. What I want to know is: Do we have a system in place that will prevent such an incident from occurring in future? If not, are we going to devise another system that we can put in place so that something like this doesn’t happen in future? Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Deputy Chair, Boxing SA is a public entity. They issue the licences. We have asked for a report of the investigation, and we certainly did engage them to make sure that we don’t have a recurrence of something of this nature in future.

May I just say that a sporting federation or a public entity is independent, and government can only give guidance in that regard. We cannot really take over and interfere directly. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Are there any further follow-up questions? If not, then the hon Minister for the Public Service and Administration, could we take Question 118 by the hon Skosana?

Training and orientation of community development workers; and their impact on alleviating poverty and underdevelopment

1. Mr M B Skosana (IFP) asked the Minister for the Public Service and Administration:

   (1) (a) What (i) aspects of training and orientation have community development workers been exposed to from the time they were first employed and (ii) support systems are they provided with and (b) in which communities are these systems established;

   (2) whether community development workers have any measurable impact on alleviating rural and urban poverty and underdevelopment; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details;

   (3) whether she will make a statement on the matter? N1098E

The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Yes, thank you, Chairperson. As Mr Skosana would know, when you deal with community development workers, there’s always a complexity of issues. I was just dealing with a community-related issue outside, so my apologies for missing my turn.

In terms of the training that community development workers are exposed to, from the day they are recruited until the day they become fully fledged community development workers, they are exposed to intensive training. As a matter of fact, we have a year during which community development workers are engaged in a rigorous learnership programme.

This particular programme covers areas such as dealing with the developmental context, looking at the historical background of our country, looking at the actual community that they are in and its economic factors and partnerships, looking at the detail of government services that are available, and looking at the specific dynamics relating to the community.

In their training they also deal with the specifics of development theory, organisational development, financial management, conflict resolution and work management. Their training also covers issues such as supporting small business; it looks at local economic development and at laws and policies; and it looks at legislation, which involves interpretation and understanding to the benefit of the community.

Immediately after they have completed their yearlong learnership and post their full employment, they are then taken further into other specific areas of work. At that point in time, they engage in programmes such as Wamkelekile – “Welcome to government” - an overview of government functioning.

They look specifically at building a service-delivery culture in the Public Service. They would have been exposed to the dynamics of intergovernmental relationships, because they are a peculiar cadre, if I can call them that. They are located in a local community, they work directly with local government, they are employed by provincial government, and they have links with the national government.

So, the training for community development workers is an ongoing process, and provinces engage them in workshops to learn about the specifics of individual departments. We’ve also seen in provinces, such as Gauteng and the Western Cape, that they are put into programmes of advanced management training, which I think is quite positive and this is, of course, for those who have been fully employed.

I think it’s also necessary to state that they have supervisors who are based at municipal level, and the municipalities provide them with access to resources – offices, equipment and so on. Thank you very much.

Mr M B SKOSANA: Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to thank the Minister for the comprehensive reply. In fact, she gave me a very, very long and comprehensive reply in her statement, which makes me unable to engineer any follow-up question for her.

I must say that the reason I asked the question is that at the inception of these community development workers, when I didn’t see them, which may have been my own omission, I thought they were going to be central to, or underpin, a very strong co-operative development movement in urban and rural areas, specifically for housing and agriculture. I’m glad that I will learn as I read this. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Thank you, hon Skosana. It’s not obligatory to ask a follow-up question. You would like to respond, Minister? You are welcome to.

The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: I actually want to respond to that and say thanks for the complimentary remarks. I want to give some examples in which they are actually involved very directly in economic development. One such example is the Umsinga Municipality in KwaZulu-Natal. I think, hon member, I should probably invite you to accompany me at some point to go out to communities where the community development workers are present so that you can be exposed to their work.

In terms of the Umsinga Municipality, the community development worker there has assisted a group of 10 unemployed women and a man to establish a food garden. This community development worker actually linked them up to Ithala Bank in order to access a loan that assisted them with the further development and expansion of their project. So, I think, that reflects on the local economic development initiatives that they are engaged in. They are not necessarily directly engaged in the co-operative movement as a distinct component, but will play a supportive role as and where required.

In terms of the Eastern Cape, I can also give an example in which one of the community development workers worked with a local councillor in facilitating renovations at a local school. The school concerned was the Sandile Primary School. The condition this school was in was not the greatest. In terms of the normal initiatives by the community to actually do something about this, the community development worker was quite directly involved. So, I think, where they have been present, you do indeed see a difference in communities. Thank you.

Mr M R SIKAKANE: Madam Minister, as the community development workers have received this rigorous training, I would like to know and for this House to understand the impact the CDWs will have on a single Public Service that your department is about to formalise in terms of legislation before this House. What is the difference they have brought about between a councillor in the ward and a committee in the area? What is the difference that they will bring about in order to have an impact as far as the delivery of services in the community is concerned? Could you elaborate on that? Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Madam Minister, would you like to respond?

The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Yes, thank you very much, Chairperson. I think, firstly, the community development worker actually reflects exactly what we’d like to see in a single Public Service, in which there will be the possibility of a public servant having access across the different spheres of government.

Secondly, as I explained earlier, this is a special cadre that’s located right in the community, lives in that community, speaks the language of that community, is exposed to the complexities of that community, and has access to resources across the spheres of government.

Hence, there is our insistence, at the level of local government, that they need to have access to the office of the executive arm at the level of local government, and also have access to the premier’s office in order to be exposed to programmes that are of a crosscutting nature there, as well as access at national government level at which we look at ensuring that national government also facilitates the kinds of linkages between different government programmes.

In terms of a single Public Service, we simply say that government services must be made accessible in a seamless way to the citizen. So, the citizen must not be bothered as to whether that service is provided at local government level, or provincial government level, or national government level. The issue is access to services by the citizen.

We hear through this cadre that has now been in existence for two years. We are seeing this in operation in some ways in which the community development worker also, in the instance of a disaster, is able to access officials at provincial and even national level in terms of resource requirements. So, it takes this forward. Thank you very much.

Mnr S E OPPERMAN: Minister, dit is belangrik dat die totale gemeenskap voordeel trek uit die werksaamhede van die gemeenskapsontwikkelingswerkers. Daarom is my vraag: kom die vergoeding van gemeenskapsontwikkelingswerkers uit die geldkoffers van die ANC of die staat, en as dit uit die staatskas kom, hoekom bedien die gemeenskapsontwikkelingswerkers net ANC-lede in gemeenskappe? Baie dankie.

Die MINISTER VIR DIE STAATSDIENS EN ADMINISTRASIE: Agb lid, ek dink u het ’n groot probleem. Ons het tydens my begrotingspos oor hierdie saak gepraat en nou praat ons weer eens daaroor. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mr S E OPPERMAN: Minister, it is important that the entire community benefits from the work of the community development workers. My question therefore is: does the remuneration of community development workers come from the coffers of the ANC or the State, and if it comes from the treasury, why do community development workers only serve ANC members in the communities? Thank you very much.

The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Hon member, I think that you have a big problem. We discussed this matter during my budget vote and now we are discussing it again.]

It’s not even an issue where the money comes from.

Dit kom uit die staatskas, en ek dink u moet ophou om net stories te vertel hier. Bring tog asseblief bewyse aan my van waar daar gevalle is waar hierdie gemeenskapsontwikkelingswerkers net vir die ANC werk, want as dit die geval is, is dit verkeerd, en ek weet nie van enige gevalle waar dit wel gebeur nie. U moet dus ophou om met skinderstories te kom. Bring feite en plaas dit voor my sodat ons dit kan hanteer. Dankie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[It comes from the treasury, and I think that you should refrain from spreading rumours. Please bring me the evidence of instances where these community development workers have only worked for the ANC, because if that is the case, then it is wrong, and I do not know of any instances where this has actually happened. You must therefore stop being a gossip-monger. Bring me facts so that we can deal with it. Thank you.]

Mr W P DOMAN: Madam Chair, I just want to put it to the Minister that these CDWs are actually an acknowledgement that other officials – civil servants

• are not doing their work in the communities. Why do the CDWs have to access people in government services when there are officials that can do their work and are being paid all the time?

The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Thank you very much. Quite honestly, this hon member is out of touch with himself and with constituencies.

I think, first and foremost, we are talking here about a community cadre who is able to go to the houses of members of the community that are unable to reach services for various reasons. This worker would be able to point out where Home Affairs should take its mobile services or where the Social Development worker should go. This worker is there in addition to what officials do. This is not due to officials not doing their work, but is filling a gap.

This also identifies instances in which there is potential in the community. We can bring together community resources with government resources, and here we are talking about the business initiatives in the community and otherwise.

We also want to grow the second economy. So, this is not about creating dependency on government services as well, but about unleashing the potential in communities and building on it. That cadre was never there in the Public Service; that cadre is one that we are creating now.

So this is not about filling a gap; it’s about your lack of understanding of what the needs are in communities at that point, because we are looking at a catalyst that is there at the coalface of service delivery and can actually step in and ensure that services are taken where they are not being accessed at this point in time. Thank you. [Applause.]

Steps to rectify shortcomings in Further Education and Training (FET)
                             curriculum

1. Mr G G Boinamo (DA) asked the Minister of Education:

   (1) With regard to the fact that Grade 10 learners in the Western Cape had a sixty percent failure rate in their mid-year exams which was structured according to the Further Education and Training (FET) curriculum, (a) what is her department’s explanation for this result, (b) what are the shortcomings in the FET curriculum and (c) how does her department intend rectifying these shortcomings;

   (2) whether there are any plans to review the training of teachers who have to implement the FET curriculum; if not, why not; if so, what plans? N1090E

TONA YA LEFAPHA LA THUTO: Ke a leboga Modulasetulo wa Ntlo. Rre Boinamo, ke go bolelela ka metlha gore o seke wa tsaya dilo tshotlhe tse o di buisang mo dikuranteng. Batho bao ga ba bue nnete. Fa o ka gakologelwa, ga gona ditlhatlhobo tse di kwadilweng ke porofense yotlhe. Ntlha eo e fosagetse. Ga go ise go nne le ditlhatlhobo tsa Kapa Bophirima e le nosi. Ka jalo, seo ga se nnete. Go na le ditlhatlhobo tsa bogareng jwa ngwaga tse sekolo sengwe le sengwe se itirelang tsona. Ga gona tlhatlhobo e e bidiwang tlhatlhobo ya Kapa Bophirima.

Dikuranta di buile ka dikolo di le tharo fela. O ka sere go feitse 60% ya bana ba Kapa Bophirima o lebisitse mo dikolong di le tharo fela. O seke wa tsaa dikuranta tsia. (Translation of Setswana paragraphs follows.)

[The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Boinamo, I tell you every day not to believe everything that you read in the newspapers. Those people do not tell the truth. If you still remember, there are no examinations that are written by the whole province. That statement is incorrect. There has never been examinations for the Western Cape province only. Hence, that is not true. Every school is responsible for its mid-term examinations. There is no examination called a Western Cape province examination.

The newspapers only referred to three schools, therefore you cannot say 60% of the Western Cape learners failed and only refer to three schools. You must not believe newspapers.]

Let me answer the question. The Western Cape education department reports that the failure rate varied widely across schools, and my colleague MEC Dugmore answered the question on the specific reasons for failure in the provincial legislature, only yesterday. I draw your attention to the response, but let me highlight two points that he made.

Firstly, as you would know, hon member, there are no higher and standard grades any longer in the new curriculum. In the past, a higher grade failure could be converted into a standard grade pass. So that’s important. This can no longer happen. There is no such conversion.

In some schools, the poor pass rate in home language increased the number of learners who failed in the dramatic fashion that has been reported. If you had looked at the three schools in which this failure had been recorded, you would have noted the trend in the three was in home language as a subject. This subject is now compulsory; it’s not been before and, of course, the whole pass-fail is compounded by what I said, the conversion, which used to occur in the past.

Secondly, some schools reported on sections of assessment only and did not include continuous assessment or oral marks as required. So in the reports you read, what they were talking about was the achievement in the written exams in those schools. It was not a compilation of the final mark, which in our system includes continuous assessment as well as oral marks. This also, of course, produces the kind of negative picture you read about.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon Minister, because I have respect for an ex-teacher I have allowed you to go on, but your time has expired.

Rre G G BOINAMO: Se se salang ke gore bona bana bao ba ba kwadileng tlhatlhobo ya Mophato wa Bolesome, ga baa dira sentle; ba feitse ke nnete. Jaanong potso ya me ke gore, a mo ngwangeng o, re tlile go bona go feila go go fetang go re go boneng ka ditlhatlhobo tsa bogare jwa ngwaga kgotsa re tlile go bona Tona kgotsa Lefapha la Thuto le nolofatsa ditlhatlhobo gore bana ba Mophato wa Bolesome ba kgone go phasa botlhe? Ke a leboga.

TONA YA LEFAPHA LA THUTO: Go simolola ka karabo ya me, ke batla go netefatsa gore ga re ne re theosa, mme re ya go tsholetsa maemo go tsweletsa bana ba rona. Ke batla go netefatsa seo. Sa bobedi se re tlileng go se dira ke go dirisana le barutabana le dikolo go ba thusa gore ba tlhaloganye gore ba tshwanetse go dira jang go thusa bana ba rona. Re setse re buile le ba mafapha otlhe a thuto mo Aforika Borwa gore re tlile go tsaya dirutwa di le nne re ba nee pampiri e le nngwe ya dirutwa tseo gore ba tle ba leke bana ka tsona, go kwalwe Tlhatlhobo ya Bosetšhaba e e tshwanang kwa bofelong jwa Phatwe jaaka teko, gore re tlhatlhobe gore totatota ke eng se bana ba sa se tlhaloganyeng fa ba rutiwa. Re ya go dira dilo tseo e bile re ya go netefatsa gore katiso ya rona e thuse barutabana gore ba itse gore kharikhulamo e e tlile go dira jang.

Ke ile ka tshwenyega thata fa ke buisa ka ga mogokgo mongwe mo kuranteng a bua gore – se ke ile ka se tsaya mo tlhogong ya me - bana ba gagwe ga baa rutiwa jaaka re batla go dira mo Mophatong wa Bolesome. O buile gore ga baa rutiwa ka kharikhulamo ya FET, ba rutiwa ka tsela e e sa tlhokeng tlhaloganyo thata. Jaanong, re tlile go dirisana le dikolo gore ba utlwisise gore re tlhoka tlhaloganyo ka dinako tsotlhe mo kharikhulamong gore bana ba rona ba itse gore totatota re tlhoka maemo a a kwa godimodimo mo go bona. (Translation of Setswana paragraphs follows.)

[Mr G G BOINAMO: The fact is that those learners who wrote the grade 12 examinations, underperformed - in fact, they failed. Now my question is: Are we going to have an increased number of failures this year like in the mid-year examinations or is the Minister or the Department of Education going to simplify the matric examinations so that all can pass? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: In response, I would like to assure you that we will not lower the standard, but instead we are going to raise the standard to develop our children. I want to make that point clear.

Secondly, we are going to collaborate with the schools and teachers, to help them understand the method to use in order for them to be able to help our children. We have already spoken to all the departments of education of South Africa and informed them that we will use four subjects and give them one question paper from one of the four subjects to assess the learners with.

A similar national examination will be written at the end of August as a pilot study in order to find out what is it that the learners do not understand when they are taught. We are going to do all those things and ensure that our training helps the teachers to know how this curriculum is going to work.

I got worried when I was reading a newspaper about a certain principal who said - this is what I gathered in my mind - his children have not been taught the way we want to teach the grade 12’s. He said that they were not taught according to the FET curriculum, they were being taught in a way that does not necessarily need their thinking skills. We are now going to work together with schools so that they can understand that in this curriculum we need their thinking skills at all times so that our children should know that we need a very high standard from them.]

Mr B G MOSALA: I thank the Minister for a very detailed response that highlights many salient issues with regard to the National Curriculum Statement and progress made to date. The response also puts to rest the myth that there is a crisis caused by the implementation of the new curriculum in some schools in the Western Cape.

However, in spite of the concerns that were obviously based on a misconception, what kind of feedback are you receiving generally with regard to the implementation of the new curriculum? Finally, is the training programme for Grades 10 to 12 teachers progressing according to schedule? Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon Minister, there are two questions, not one.

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Well, Madam Chair, you allowed them. Firstly, as I have said with respect to the training of teachers, we are certainly working on a review of our training programme, to ensure that teachers fully understand the new curriculum. When we began our training of teachers for the new curriculum, I think the training tended to focus more on the methodology or the pedagogy that teachers should use, rather than really looking in a detailed fashion at subject-content knowledge, which is necessary for achievement in our new curriculum. So, we have strengthened our training programme.

We now have 100 hours of training. We have incentives for attendance and incentives with respect to knowledge acquisition. We are continuing our programme to ensure that we prepare our teachers better for Grades 11 and 12 so that they will be more competent.

We also are working far more closely with the schools in terms of looking at the forms of assessment that they utilise as a regular part of the learning and teaching programme in schools. I think we have learnt lessons from the introduction of the new curriculum. I am not in any way disheartened.

We have spoken to the principals of the schools that were the concern and subject of the articles in the newspapers two or three weeks ago. A number of them were most unhappy about the manner in which their schools were reported on. There was an exaggeration of the problems that they had encountered and they have indicated their keenness to continue working with the curriculum to ensure that this more demanding curriculum is implemented appropriately in the country.

Dr R RABINOWITZ: Hon Minister, I am trying to see where you are. I am personally involved with trying to offer resource material on outcomes- based education to education departments in the country, because one hears constantly that there is a shortage of materials for outcomes-based education. The particular material that I am talking about has forewords by two Ministers of Education. It has been shown to various educators and they say the material is spot-on for what the country needs.

Yet, there’s a paralysis when it comes to the various provinces or the people who are in charge of assigning material to the schools. There’s a paralysis in their being able to find useful material and assign it to schools and find a budget or a way to make it useful to pupils. So, resource material that is evidently endorsed by …

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): The question, hon Rabinowitz?

Dr R RABINOWITZ: Is there any way to overcome this problem and get resources to the children who need them without going to the private sector? Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Minister, I leave it to you to respond. You know it’s not a follow-up question so you can choose if you want to or not.

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Mr Ellis will give me a very hard time if I don’t respond, so I had better try. [Interjections.] You thought I might be scared.

I think one of the things that has occurred with the introduction of the new curriculum is that people have assumed and teachers, perhaps some practitioners, think it’s a very complicated curriculum. I think that part of that resulted from the curriculum’s introduction.

The original curriculum that was put before South Africa with the criterion referencing, the very specific detail on outcomes and so on was a very complex set of syllabus outlines for teachers, given the training that we had in the country. I think the revised curriculum and certainly the further education curriculum – further level: the senior high school - is far better in terms of the way it outlines the curriculum and, I think, uses a language that is more acceptable and accessible to teachers.

What outcomes-based education demands from a teacher is the ability to creatively make use of any set of materials that you have available to you. For example, it doesn’t matter even if it’s a textbook, newspapers, magazines and journal articles. It is the set of questions that you put which will elicit the outcomes you want - essay writing or critical analysis that actually make the difference.

Part of our problem as well is that those who do the training are not as fully trained as they should be. One of the things we intend to do is to run a set of very well constructed programmes for the district officials who are the facilitators of training, so that they are better able to advise and support teachers.

A final point is that the selection of material from catalogues is a very complex process. So, we’ve tried to develop a national selection process and have developed a single catalogue from which all provinces and teachers can make selections, rather than having nine or so catalogues. [Time expired.]

  Steps to prevent receipt of further qualified audit by department

1. Ms M N S Manana (ANC) asked the Minister of Water Affairs and Forestry:

   Whether any progress has been made to ensure that her department does not receive a qualified audit again; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? N1087E

The MINISTER OF WATER AFFAIRS AND FORESTRY: Hon Chairperson, the Auditor- General’s reports on the 2004-05 financial statements of the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry were of concern to me, my predecessor, and the management of the department with regard to the financial management capacity of the department. As a result of these concerns, a number of steps were taken to ensure that the financial management of the department was improved and placed on a much firmer footing.

These actions, which we took during the latter half of the 2005-06 financial year, will not have a significant impact on the results of the past financial year. This is already evident on the basis of our preliminary discussions with the Office of the Auditor-General as well as the AG management letters that the department has been getting.

For historical reasons, the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry is involved in a number of trading activities, which include the sale of water. There is a medium-term plan to migrate these activities out of Dwaf to various institutions, including municipalities.

On the financial side, we will improve general financial management by making the following interventions at head office - it’s a total restructuring of our finance branch and the regional finance structures through separating this trading account from the main account which is money that we get from Treasury.

We have contracted a national accounting firm to provide temporary resources to my department both at national and regional offices to improve our financial management while we try to recruit suitable staff for an internal audit.

We have the implementation of SAP as the preferred enterprise resource planning system to support our trading activities. This system is expected to go live at the end of September this year. This will mean that we will be able to fully implement accrual accounting for the trading activities, and comply with the provisions of section 41 of the Public Finance Management Act of 1999. These, amongst other things, are the measures we have taken to improve the situation.

Nk M N S MANANA: Sihlalo, angibonge kuNgqongqoshe ngempendulo anginikeze yona. Ngithanda ukwazi ukuthi imaphi amasu uMnyango wakhe onawo okuqinisekisa ukuthi izinsiza ziyafinyelela kubantu ngesikhathi uMnyango wakhe usabhekene nokulungisa lezi zindaba zezimali?

UNGQONGQOSHE WEZAMANZI NEZAMAHLATHI: Sihlalo, ngiyabonga kwilungu elihloniphekileyo ngombuzo eliwubuzile. Ngingasho ngithi njengoba sizama ukulungisa lezi zindaba zezimali umsebenzi awumile. Uma ubheka nje, uzothola ukuthi lo Mnyango ubunazo lezi zingxaki iminyaka emihlanu edlulile kodwa akuzange kume ukutholakala kwezinsiza kubantu abazifunayo nalabo ezibafanele.

Uma ubheka nje, uzothola ukuthi yizigidi ngezigidi zabantu asebenikwe amanzi kanye nalabo asebenikwe izindlu zangasese phezu kwalezi zingxaki esinazo. Uma ubheka iNingizimu Afrika, phakathi kwamanye amazwe, uzothola ukuthi thina sesifinyelele kulokhu esikubiza sithi ama-millennium development goals. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[Ms M N S MANANA: Chairperson, I thank the hon Minister for her reply. I want to know what strategies her department has employed to ensure that services do reach the people whilst the department is still sorting out budgetary issues.

The MINISTER OF WATER AFFAIRS AND FORESTRY: Chairperson, I thank the hon member for the question. I can confirm that service delivery is indeed continuing while we are still sorting out budgetary issues. If you double- check, you will find that this department did have these financial problems in the past five years but access to service delivery did not stop for the needy and deserving.

As we speak, you will find that there are millions and millions of people who have received water and toilets notwithstanding the problems we have. If one compares South Africa with other countries, one will find that we have achieved the objectives of the Millennium Development Goals.]

We have achieved our Millennium Development Goals in spite of this problem.

Ngingasho-ke ngithi njengoba sizolungisa izincwadi zethu ukuze zifanelane nomthetho we-Public Finance Management Act, asizukuyeka nokuqhubeka nokuletha izinsiza ebantwini ngale ndlela ebesivele senza ngayo.

Ngiyaliqinisekisa ilungu elihloniphekileyo ukuthi umsebenzi wokuletha izidingo awuzukuthinteka. Sizowuvikela njengokuthi uma kufika abantu abazosisiza abahlola ukuphathwa kwezezimali bathi besebenza bebe besisiza ngokuqeqeqsha laba bantu abasha esibaqashayo, khona manjalo umsebenzi ube uhamba nawo. Ngiyabonga. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[I can proudly say that as we are putting our financial statements in line with the requirements of the Public Finance Management Act, service delivery is continuing at a normal pace.

I therefore assure the hon member that service delivery will not be affected. We will protect its cause in the sense that when auditors come for auditing, we request them to coach the new personnel, while the work is in progress. Thank you.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Thank you, Minister. I have one name as a follow-up, also from the ANC, the hon Khumalo. If not, it’s purely a name on my monitor, I will then call on the hon Mfundisi. Sorry, I have no record here on my monitor. If you have questions … I now have the DA, but also Mr Mfundisi, whom I recognised. Are there any others whom I haven’t seen on the monitor? Thank you. I will then call on Mr Mfundisi and then Ms Semple. Thank you.

Mr I S MFUNDISI: Unfortunately, Chair, I was calling the service officers …

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): You were only waving to me! In that case, it’s the hon Ms Semple.

Ms J A SEMPLE: Thank you, Deputy Chair, and thank you, Minister, for your very candid response to the financial problems in your department. As we know, it has not had a very good record in respect of the Auditor-General’s reports over the past four years. Since 2002, there have been two adverse reports, one qualified report and last year serious matters of emphasis were raised.

You have addressed the issue about the water trading account, but could you tell us what you intend to do about the equipment trading account which received an adverse audit opinion as well? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF WATER AFFAIRS AND FORESTRY: I think at the core of our problem with the qualifications and the disclaimers is the issue of assets that are held by this Department of Water Affairs and Forestry, and the problem is the location of assets and the valuation of assets particularly with the equipment that you mentioned. The problem is that the equipment is recorded at values of many years ago and, despite the fact that as government and municipalities we have been improving equipment and spending money on it, the real value of that equipment hasn’t been reflected and that has been the problem of the Auditor-General.

We are addressing that issue through ensuring that we train people at the regional offices. We are actually upgrading the position, in the regions, of people dealing with these accounts to director level to ensure that we attract the necessary level of skill to deal with these issues.

As you can imagine, as we spend this money on improving and upgrading equipment, somebody must capture that in the regions for it to reflect at head office so that when we give a picture to the Auditor-General, we give the actual picture of the state of our equipment and what the value is. So, the valuation of assets and the linking up of our systems is going to be very critical and we are working on that.

Question 111 withdrawn

Possible prosecution of public servants for fraudulently obtaining social grants

1. Mr M Waters (DA) asked the Minister of Social Development:

   (1) How many public servants signed an admission of guilt for fraudulently obtaining social grants as at 31 July 2006;

   (2) whether he will request the Special Investigating Unit (SIU) to submit all the names of public servants who fraudulently obtained social grants to the National Prosecuting Authority for possible prosecution; if not, (a) why not and (b) what action will be taken against these public servants; if so, when will this be done? N990E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Thank you, Deputy Chair. The answer is as follows. There are no public servants that have signed admissions of guilt. About 700 public servants had pleaded guilty in court and were convicted and sentenced for fraudulently obtaining social grants by 31 July 2006.

With regard to prosecutions, the Special Investigating Unit reviewed 43 705 public servants registered on the social pension – Socpen - system. More than 22 000 of the public servants are entitled to a social grant, and no action will be taken against them. Nearly 22 000 public servants have been found to be on the system irregularly and about 14 000 of them are being considered for prosecution on charges ranging from fraud to offences in terms of the Social Assistance Act by the National Prosecuting Authority.

In view of the large numbers of potential prosecutions, the National Director of Public Prosecutions has delegated a special team of prosecutors to deal with these cases. About 1 520 public servants had been brought to court by 31 July 2006, and about another 2 000 cases will be brought before court on criminal charges ranging from fraud to offences in terms of the Social Assistance Act over the next year. It is important to appreciate that the investigation into public servants is the first phase of a much larger investigation.

The Special Investigating Unit has commenced the second phase of the investigation that involves private citizens who are receiving grants irregularly. More than 400 000 private citizens have already been identified for further investigation and many more are likely to follow. This phase is likely to result in hundreds of thousands of potential prosecutions.

At present, the National Prosecuting Authority has prioritised the prosecution of the most serious cases. But the large numbers may make it difficult to prosecute all those who have infringed the law. This is a matter with which the National Prosecuting Authority will deal in terms of its normal processes. With regard to disciplinary action, all public servants found to be on the system irregularly will be referred to their departments for disciplinary action even if there is a decision not to prosecute them.

With regard to recovering the amounts owing, normally the recovery of debt is a cumbersome process as court litigation is required to compel the debtor to repay and the court cannot compel debtors to repay more than they can afford.

The Special Investigating Unit has tried to persuade those who are willing and able to repay what they owe to do so. By 31 July 2006, about 3 330 public servants had signed formal acknowledgements of debt that are enforceable in court should they default on the promised payments.

The acknowledgement of debt is not a settlement of the debt and no debt or interest has been written off. Thus, the department or the Special Investigating Unit can still use normal court processes to recover the full amount owed, including interest.

From a recent assessment done by the Special Investigating Unit, it emerged that 65% agreed to a repayment over three years or less, 91% agreed to a repayment over five years or less, 97% agreed to a repayment over eight years or less, and 3% agreed to a repayment over a period of eight years or more. From the above …

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Deputy Minister, I have to stop you there.

Ms H WEBER: Thank you, Madam Chair. Hon Deputy Minister, I would just like to find out if these grants were only child support grants or if they were over the whole spectrum of grants. Also, were these reported to Sars to investigate the tax evasion aspects of them, and are other fraudulent claimants, for instance for disability grants, being investigated; if not, why not?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon Deputy Minister, may I just help you there. Hon Weber, a follow-up question is a follow-up question – not several - and it consists only of two parts. I think there were about four different questions there. So, I am going to ask the Deputy Minister whether she would like to choose one to respond to.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: I’ll choose the one. There was one to do with a large spectrum of grants – disability grants and other kinds of grants. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Thank you very much. The time allocated for questions has expired. Outstanding replies received will be printed in Hansard. See also QUESTIONS AND REPLIES.

                          NOTICES OF MOTION

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House, I will move as follows:

That the House -

(1) Noting -

    (a) with grave concern the developments in the Middle East;


    (b) Israel's collective punishment of both the Palestinian and
          Lebanese peoples;


    (c) the disproportionate response of Israel and the use of military
          force against civilian targets, resulting in hundreds of
          deaths and injuries, mainly of women, children and the
          elderly, the massive destruction of vital life-supporting
          infrastructure and the displacement of over a million people;


    (d) the catastrophic humanitarian crisis in Gaza and Lebanon, for
          which Israel's aggression is responsible;


    (e) the anger and concerns of many sectors of our people - including
          political parties, trade unions and religious leaders; and


    (f) the commencement of a UN-mandated ceasefire on Monday, 14 August
          2006;

(2) believing –

    (a) that the threat of a regional war might become a reality, which
          will seriously endanger regional and international peace and
          security;


    (b) that the actions of Israel are against international law and the
          Geneva Convention;


    (c) that the Palestinian people have the right to self-determination
          and independence in the state of Palestine and that the state
          of Israel has the right to exist alongside the state of
          Palestine, within secure borders; and


    (d) that a negotiated final status agreement would best serve the
          peoples of Israel, Palestine and Lebanon, and more generally
          the cause for peace and security in the region; and

(3) resolves -

    (a) to call upon all parties to desist from any actions which may
          exacerbate the conflict;


    (b) to call for the maintenance of a ceasefire by all sides;


    (c) to call for a negotiated solution of the Israeli, Palestinian
          and Lebanese prisoner issue;


    (d) to call upon the UN Security Council to discharge its
          responsibilities and act with urgency to enforce and maintain
          the full cessation of hostilities and Israel’s withdrawal of
          its troops at the earliest;


    (e) to call upon the UN, on the basis of various UN resolutions, to
          seek a peaceful, comprehensive solution; and


       f) to call upon the international community and the South
          African government and people to respond to the catastrophic
          humanitarian tragedy in the region.

CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF AD HOC COMMITTEE ON APPOINTMENT OF AUDITOR- GENERAL

There was no debate.

Question put: That the recommendation for the appointment of Mr Terrence Mncedisi Nombembe as Auditor-General be approved.

AYES - 246: Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Anthony, T G; Arendse, J D; Asiya, S E; Baloyi, M R; Bekker, H J; Benjamin, J; Beukman, F; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, M J; Biyela, B P ; Bloem, D V; Bogopane-Zulu, H I; Boinamo, G G; Bonhomme, T J; Booi, M S; Botha, C-S; Botha, N G W; Burgess, C V; Cachalia, I M; Carrim, Y I; Cele, M A; Chalmers, J; Chang, E S; Chauke, H P; Chikunga, L S; Chohan-Khota, F I; Combrinck, J J; Cronin, J P; Cupido, H B ; Cwele, S C; Davidson, I O; Davies, R H; Delport, J T; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Dikgacwi, M M; Direko, I W; Dithebe, S L; Dlali, D M; Doman, W P; Du Toit, D C ; Ellis, M J; Fihla, N B; Fraser-Moleketi, G J; Frolick, C T; Fubbs, J L; Gabanakgosi, P S; Gaum, A H; Gerber, P A; Gigaba, K M N; Gololo, C L; Goniwe, M T; Groenewald, P J; Gumede, D M; Gumede, M M; Hajaig, F; Hendricks, L B; Hendrickse, P A C; Hogan, B A; Holomisa, S P; Huang, S; Jankielsohn, R; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, C B; Jordan, Z P; Julies, I F; Kasienyane, O R; Khoarai, L P; Khumalo, K K; Khumalo, K M; Khunou, N P; King, R J; Kohler-Barnard, D; Komphela, B M; Koornhof, G W; Kotwal, Z; Labuschagne, L B; Landers, L T; Lekgetho, G; Likotsi, M T; Lishivha, T E; Louw, J T; Louw, S K; Lowe, C M; Lucas, E J; Maake, J J; Mabe, L L; Mabena, D C; Mabudafhasi, T R; Madasa, Z L; Madella, A F; Maduma, L D; Madumise, M M; Magau, K R; Magubane, N E ; Magwanishe, G B; Mahlangu- Nkabinde, G L; Mahlawe, N M; Mahomed, F; Mahote, S; Maine, M S; Maja, S J; Makasi, X C; Makgate, M W; Malahlela, M J; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleka, H P; Manana, M N S; Mapisa-Nqakula, N N; Mars, I; Masango, S J; Maserumule, F T; Mashangoane, P R; Mashiane, L M; Mashigo, R J; Masutha, T M; Mathebe, P M; Mathibela, N F; Matlala, M H; Matsemela, M L; Matsepe-Casaburri, I F; Matsomela, M J J ; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Mbombo, N D; Mfundisi, I S; Mgabadeli, H C; Minnie, K J; Mnguni, B A; Mnyandu, B J; Moatshe, M S; Modisenyane, L J; Mofokeng, T R; Mogale, O M; Mogase, I D; Mohlaloga, M R; Mokoena, A D; Molefe, C T; Monareng, O E; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Morgan, G R; Morobi, D M; Morutoa, M R; Morwamoche, K W; Mosala, B G; Moss, M I; Mshudulu, S A; Mthembu, B; Mthethwa, E N; Mtshali, E; Mulder, C P; Mzondeki, M J G; Nawa, Z N; Ndlovu, V B; Ndzanga, R A; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E; Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngculu, L V J; Ngele, N J; Ngwenya, M L; Ngwenya, W; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njikelana, S J ; Njobe, M A A; Nkuna, C; Nogumla, R Z; Nqakula, C; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, M M; Ntuli, R S; Ntuli, S B; Nwamitwa-Shilubana, T L P; Nxumalo, M D; Nxumalo, S N ; Nzimande, L P M; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Padayachie, R L; Pahad, A G H; Pahad, E G; Pandor, G N M; Phala, M J; Phungula, J P; Pieterse, R D; Rabinowitz, R; Rajbally, S ; Ramgobin, M; Ramodibe, D M; Ramotsamai, C P M; Rasmeni, S M; Saloojee, E; Sayedali-Shah, M R; Schippers, J; Schneemann, G D; Seadimo, M D; Seaton, S A; Sefularo, M; Semple, J A; September, C C; Shabangu, S; Sibande, M P; Sibanyoni, J B; Siboza, S ; Sibuyana, M W; Sikakane, M R; Simmons, S; Skhosana, W M; Skosana, M B; Smith, P F; Smuts, M; Solomon, G; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Spies, W D; Steyn, A C; Surty, M E ; Swart, M; Swart, P S; Swathe, M M; Thabethe, E; Thomson, B; Tinto, B; Tobias, T V; Tolo, L J; Trent, E W; Tsenoli, S L; Tshivhase, T J; Van der Merwe, S C ; Van der Walt, D; Van Dyk, S M; Van Wyk, A; Vos, S C; Vundisa, S S; Wang, Y; Weber, H; Yengeni, L E; Zita, L; Zulu, N E.

Question agreed to.

Recommendation accordingly approved in accordance with section 193(5)(b) of the Constitution.

ORGANISATION FOR ECONOMIC CO-OPERATION AND DEVELOPMENT (OECD) CONVENTION ON COMBATING BRIBERY OF FOREIGN PUBLIC OFFICIALS IN INTERNATIONAL BUSINESS TRANSACTIONS

(Consideration of request for approval by Parliament in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution) Mr K K KHUMALO: Chairperson, hon members, Ministers and Deputy Ministers, honourable guests, I rise on behalf of the Portfolio Committee on Public Service and Administration to submit this agreement on the Convention on Combating Bribery of Foreign Public Officials in International Business Transactions, as adopted by the negotiating conference on 21 November 1997, to this House for adoption in the context of chapter 14, section 231 of the general provisions of the Constitution, which provides as follows … Oh, I’d rather leave the provisions for now and continue. Otherwise I will take very long.

Allow me to make a few recommendations on these agreements, before giving an exposition on the relevance of the constitutional provisions with respect to the processes of customary international law for the purpose of adopting the aforementioned agreement as part of discharging our international obligations.

It is common cause in all international instruments on this subject that bribery is confirmed to be a manifestation of corruption. Bribing public officials undermines the economy of the state or states with the result that government programmes intended to better the lives of citizenry are impeded, job creation is thwarted, pushing back the frontiers of poverty is compromised, and the same applies to general service delivery to the poorest of the poor. The integrity of the state is compromised, rendering the state susceptible to instability. This agreement is directed at regulating the conduct of foreign public officials in international fiscal relations or transactions. This agreement is designed to inculcate maximum ethical conduct in public officials when transacting in dealings that impact on national and international interests.

At our 51st conference in Stellenbosch in 2002, the ANC took the following resolutions with respect to corruption: that the government must ensure that legislation is speedily implemented to deal with corruption, including the use of punitive measures; and also to embark on an awareness and training campaign amongst public representatives and public servants about mechanisms used or to be employed to avoid officials being corrupted or compromised unwittingly.

Legislation referred to by the ANC was indeed enacted in the form of the Prevention and Combating of Corrupt Activities Act, Act 12 of 2004. This legislation in chapter 2 and article 5(1) creates an offence with respect to the bribing of foreign public officials. It also acknowledges its existence as drawing on international instruments such as the Southern African Development Community Protocol adopted in Malawi on 14 August 2001.

This legislation also acknowledges the desire of the Republic of South Africa to become party to the United Nations convention against corruption adopted by the UN General Assembly on 31 October 2003. It is desirable to “unbundle the crime of corruption in terms of which, in addition to the creation of a general, broad all-encompassing offence of corruption, various specific corrupt activities are criminalised”, includes part two and section 5 of the Act.

The above provision reinforces the revised recommendations on combating bribery in international business transactions adopted by the council of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development on 23 May 1997, which, inter alia, criminalises the bribing of foreign officials.

The provisions of the Prevention and Combating of Corrupt Activities Act, Act 12 of 2004, are consistent with the provisions mentioned above. Therefore, Act 12 renders the provisions of this agreement self-executing.

Section 232 of the Constitution provides that customary law in the Republic is law unless it is inconsistent with the Constitution or an Act of Parliament. It is submitted on behalf of the Portfolio Committee on Public Service and Administration that no such inconsistency arises. Therefore the agreement is presented to the House as part of our law in discharging our international obligations. Thank you. [Applause.]

There was no debate.

Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) Convention on Combating Bribery of Foreign Public Officials in International Business Transactions approved.

The House adjourned at 17:24. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly

The Speaker

1. Submission of Private Members’ Legislative Proposals

 (1)    The following private member’s legislative proposal was
     submitted to the Speaker on 14 June 2006, in accordance with Rule
     234:

        (a)  Labour Relations Amendment Bill (Mr C M Lowe)

        In accordance with Rule 235 the legislative proposal has been
     referred to the Standing Committee on Private Members’ Legislative
     Proposals and Special Petitions.

TABLINGS

National Assembly

1. The Speaker (1) Request from the Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development for the National Assembly, in terms of section 193(5) of the Constitution, to recommend candidates from the nominations submitted for appointment by the President to the Commission for Gender Equality.

   Referred to the Ad Hoc Committee on Filling of Vacancies on the Commission for Gender Equality for consideration and report.