National Council of Provinces - 19 September 2006
TUESDAY, 19 SEPTEMBER 2006 __
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
____
The Council met at 14:07
The House Chairperson Mrs M N Oliphant took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.
NOTICES OF MOTION
Mr C J VAN ROOYEN: Chairperson, I shall move at the next sitting of the Council:
That the Council –
1) notes with concern the unacceptable behaviour of Mr Sammy Goedemann,
a DA councillor in the Breede Valley Municipality, who swore at
Sarah Beukes, an HIV positive person and a victim of farm evictions
in the Rawsonville area in the Western Cape, and told her to
“voertsek” when she attempted to ask a question during a community
meeting;
2) further notes that this is a clear indication of the DA’s intolerant
attitude towards the sick, poor and destitute people of this
country;
3) recognises that this attitude is inconsistent with their public
policy statements on HIV/Aids, where they portray themselves as
advocates for HIV/Aids sufferers and the destitute of this country;
and
4) calls on the DA to do the right thing and apologise for such
unacceptable behaviour and to remove Mr Goedemann whom is clearly
not suitable to be a public representative.
Mnr J W LE ROUX: Mevrou die Voorsitter, ek gee hiermee kennis dat ek op die volgende sittingsdag sal voorstel:
Dat die Raad kennis neem dat -
(1) die Minister van Veiligheid en Sekuriteit uiteindelik besef het dat die land wegsink in ‘n moeras van geweld en misdaad;
(2) misdadigers die lewe van duisende Suid-Afrikaners ondraaglik maak; (3) lede van die mag die kundigheid en ondervinding moet hê om hierdie euwel uit te roei;
(4) misdadigers agter die tralies hoort en nie op straat nie; en
5) die metro polisie onder sentrale polisibeheer geplaas word en dat
dit ‘n stap in die verkeerde rigting is en noodlottige gevolge vir
die gemeenskap sal hê. Ek dank u. (Translation of Afrikaans notice of motion follows.)
[Mr J W LE ROUX: Chairperson, I shall move at the next sitting of the Council:
That the Council notes that –
1) the Minister of Safety and Security has at last realised that the
country is subsiding into a morass of violence and crime;
2) criminals are making the lives of thousands of South Africans
unbearable;
3) members of the Police Service must have the skills and experience to
eradicate this evil;
4) criminals belong behind bars and not on the streets; and
5) putting metro police under central police control is a step in the
wrong direction and will have disastrous consequences for the
community. Mr M A MZIZI: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that I shall move at the next sitting of this Council:
That the Council –
1) notes with shock that an East Rand police inspector was arrested on
18 September 2006 among a group of men allegedly planning to rob
Coin Security;
2) further notes that the alleged crime failed after police received a
tip-off;
3) expresses its appreciation to the person or persons who tipped off
the police;
4) reiterates the importance of the public and community helping the
police in their crime-fighting and crime-prevention efforts; and
5) urges the authorities to eradicate corrupt officers from the police
service.]
Mr A WATSON: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that I shall move at the next sitting of the Council:
That the Council – 1) being subjected to the notice of motion by the hon M Robertson on 6 September 2006, which is not substantive, notes that the true facts are that -
(a) the hon Mr Douglas Gibson did not break any laws in visiting the
site of the President’s retirement home;
(b) Mr Gibson did not at any stage enter the property and therefore
did not invade the privacy of the President and the First Lady
in any manner;
(c) the location of the property was known and that photographs of
the property had already been published by the media prior to
the visit of Mr Gibson;
(d) Mr Gibson visited the site of the property due to the absence of
any explanation by the Government up to the date of his visit,
to acknowledge the existence of the property or to explain what
improvements to the property were being paid for by the State;
(e) Mr Gibson probed the spending of public money on the property in
line with his duties as a public representative; and
(f) Mr Gibson did not make any statements that could be interpreted
to have misled the public;
2) therefore –
(a) commits itself to ensuring that it will be relentless in its
oversight of the spending of public money; and
(b) will act in support of members who execute their duties as
public representatives in line with the regulations of
Parliament and the laws of our country.
Ms J F TERBLANCHE: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that I intend moving the following motion at the next sitting of the Council:
That the Council notes that –
(1) the Democratic Alliance has at no point attempted to conceal the fact that it has received monetary donations from companies associated with the late Brett Kebble;
(2) the DA has therefore not made itself guilty of double standards in calling for the ANC to disclose the monies it had received from the late Brett Kebble or companies associated with the late Brett Kebble;
(3) at the time the DA received the donations from companies associated with the late Brett Kebble there was no reason to believe that they might be problematic in any way;
(4) the DA is in constant contact with the sequestrators of the estate of the late Brett Kebble;
(5) the DA has undertaken to repay any donations received from companies associated with the late Brett Kebble if it is required to do so under the laws of our country; and
(6) the DA challenges the ANC to make a similar commitment.
REFERRAL OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON SECURITY AND CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS ON HEARINGS ON THE IMPLICATIONS AND APPROVAL OF THE PROPOSED NEW SALARY SCALES FOR THE MAGISTRACY, IN PARTICULAR THE INTRODUCTION OF A NEW
MOTOR VEHICLE ALLOWANCE FOR MAGISTRATES AND SENIOR MAGISTRATES, AS RECOMMENDED BY THE INDEPENDENT COMMISSION FOR THE REMUNERATION OF PUBLIC
OFFICE BEARERS, BACK TO SELECT COMMITTEE
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Sihlalo, ngiphakamisa lesishukumiso lesibhalwe egameni lami ku-Oda Phepha, kanje: [Chairperson, I give notice according to the motion drafted in my name on the Order Paper, which reads:]
That the Council refers the Report of the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs (Announcements, Tablings and Committee Reports, 20 June 2006, p 1517 - Hearings on the implications and Approval of the Proposed New Salary Scales for the Magistracy, in particular the introduction of a New Motor Vehicle Allowance for Magistrates and Senior Magistrates, as recommended by the Independent Commission for the Remuneration of Public Office Bearers) back to the Committee for further consideration and report, the Committee to confer with the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development of the National Assembly.
Ngiyabonga. [Thank you.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Hon members, as there is no speakers’ list, I shall now put the question, and the question is that the motion be agreed to. As the decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether all the delegation heads are present in the Chamber to cast their provinces’ votes. Are all the delegation heads present?
In accordance with Rule 71, I shall allow provinces the opportunity to make declarations of vote, if they so wish. We shall now proceed to the voting on the question. I shall do this in alphabetical order per province. Delegation heads must please indicate to the Chair whether they vote in favour or against or abstain from voting. Eastern Cape? [Interjections.] We’ll proceed, hon members. Free State?
Mr J W LE ROUX: Ondersteun. [Supports.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Gauteng?
Mr E M SOGONI: Ons ondersteun. [We support.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): KwaZulu-Natal?
Mr D D GAMEDE: Siyavuma. [Supports.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Limpopo?
Ms H F MATLANYANE: Ons ondersteun. [We support.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Mpumalanga? Ms M P THEMBA: Mpumalanga supports.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Northern Cape?
Mr M C GOEIEMAN: Kapa Bokone e a dumelana. [Northern Cape supports.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): North West?
Rev P MOATSHE: Re a e tshegetsa. [We support.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Western Cape?
Mr N J MACK: Supports.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, I want to draw your attention and that of the House to the fact that the provincial delegation head of the Eastern Cape, Mrs Beauty Dlulane, has been granted leave as she is off sick. I was under the impression that arrangements had been made with one of the province’s permanent delegates to take charge of her responsibilities. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Hon Chief Whip, would you please look into that matter and address it as the Whippery. [Interjections.]
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Thank you very much. I was addressing the Chair, so I’ll not respond to that nonsense.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Hon members, eight provinces have voted in favour of the motion. I therefore declare the motion agreed to in terms of section 65 of the Constitution.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE – THIRD AND FOURTH QUARTER PUBLIC HEARINGS ON CONDITIONAL GRANTS AND CAPITAL EXPENDITURE
Mr T S RALANE: Chairperson, hon members, section 76 of the Division of Revenue Act, an Act that affects provinces and municipalities, constitutes the foundation of the National Council of Provinces. This Act places certain obligations and stringent requirements on the Select Committee on Finance, on behalf of the National Council of Provinces, to host public hearings on conditional grants.
In order to exercise its oversight responsibility, the Select Committee on Finance is compelled to monitor the spending behaviour of provincial, national and municipal governments in relation to both equitable shares and conditional grants.
Clauses 7 and 8 make reference to conditional grants that are allocated to provinces and municipalities. The Division of Revenue Act stipulates clearly that it is the responsibility of national and provincial departments to submit quarterly reports to the Select Committee on Finance on the performance of conditional grants.
Although the Select Committee on Finance is of the view that there is a marked improvement in provincial financial management, in comparison with the early years of the installation of our new democracy, the new scenarios within intergovernmental relations have produced dilemmas and new contradictions.
On aggregate, provinces have failed to spend R4,4 billion in the financial year ending March 2006. In terms of underspending, the Free State and North West are the major defaulters. KwaZulu-Natal and the Western Cape had spent the biggest portion of their provincial adjusted budgets by the end of the financial year ending March 2006.
This underspending, my colleagues, is of a major concern to our select committee. The questions are: How is delivery on the ground affected by underspending? To what extent is poverty alleviation derailed by the underspending demonstrated by our provinces during the financial year ending March 2006?
The public hearings convened by our select committee received plausible explanations for this underspending. Some of the explanations advanced are as follows. Firstly, provinces experience natural disasters, such as floods. These unanticipated events require that plans originally drafted before the new financial year commenced be changed and recrafted at short notice, during the financial year.
Secondly, late approval of business plans and tenders, and the lack of a foolproof process in our awarding tenders to successful bidders impacted adversely on spending levels. Legal proceedings naturally take several months before a case involving a tender dispute can be resolved.
The Select Committee on Finance, regarding its role on behalf of the NCOP, is plagued by another challenge exhibited by provinces, and this is widely referred to as the “March spike syndrome”. Provincial departments continue to spend the bulk of their budgets during the last month of the financial year, which is March. This raises the question: If a provincial department is unable to spend its budget over 11 months of the financial year, how then is it possible for it to utilise the financial resources over one month?
The “March spike syndrome” is something that the select committee is compelled to explore more vigorously. It would seem that weak monitoring mechanisms exist in the national and provincial departments. It was also revealed that national departments do not use withholding powers for consistent and material underspending. Spending in the first quarter of a financial year is disastrously slow in comparison with spending levels in the fourth and last quarter of a financial year.
The third challenge faced by the Select Committee on Finance is to respond to provincial departments and individuals that underperform. Provincial departments continue to receive grants, although financial resources are not utilised. Individuals that underperform continue to receive incentives and performance bonuses. This development is contradictory and the select committee is compelled to explore it further.
Concerns outlined do not reveal chaos in intergovernmental relations. In fact, if anything at all, the marked improvement in provincial management and the first-ever release of three-year budgets by municipalities from 1 July 2003 are an excellent demonstration of our continually evolving intergovernmental fiscal relations.
Moreover, the provinces have increased their year-on-year spending by 13,5% compared to the previous financial year. So there is no need for prophets of doom at this level, when we are confronted with new dilemmas. What is required is the unfailing application of our ingenuity in order to produce the outcome we desire. We have succeeded before, and there is no reason not to succeed in the future.
The Select Committee on Finance, on behalf of the NCOP, will continue to probe national and provincial departments through the convening of public hearings, thereby consolidating our national framework for social change. I thank you.
Mr E M SOGONI: Chairperson, colleagues, ladies and gentlemen, our people gave us an overwhelming mandate of more than 79% to create a better life for them in 2004. Despite the crushing poverty caused by many years of apartheid and deprivation, they showed unwavering support for the ANC to govern this country. The freedom the people won in 1994 has brought a sense of confidence and hope.
According to the UN economic index, South Africa has one of the highest levels of inequality in the world, alongside Brazil, hence the two worlds, one that is rich and the other world that is poor, that the President referred to. The democratic South Africa therefore commits 5,8% of its gross domestic product to education, which is quite high, compared to other developing nations.
In the 2004-05 financial year a whopping R72,2 billion had been budgeted for education in the nine provinces. At the end of the third quarter, 64,4% had been spent – an increase of R4,5 billion from the previous financial year. Education capital expenditure was at R1,3 billion or only 39,6%. The Western Cape and North West had registered higher spending of 58,6% and 56,9% respectively. This capital expenditure was budgeted for in order to allow schools to ensure that our children do not continue to learn under the trees, in mud schools or any unsafe conditions; but provincial departments underspent on this important grant.
Many schools lack ablution facilities, classrooms and so forth. However, provinces such as KwaZulu-Natal indicated that they had a shortage of over 30 000 toilets at their schools, yet they continued to underspend. Limpopo, for example, indicated that the rains had worsened the situation when 14 schools had been affected or destroyed by heavy rains. Mpumalanga had managed to spend only 19% of its conditional grant. They informed the committee that they were going to spend the whole amount, come the end of year. They have since not reported on their spending.
This grant is meant to address huge infrastructure backlogs at many black and mostly rural schools. Some indicated at the end of the fourth quarter that they had spent 100% at the end of the year, when they had only spent less than 60% at the end of the third quarter. Whether the expenditure on these funds translated into classrooms or schools is not for me to decide. But, it is difficult to understand the spike.
We need to perfect our system of accountability so that it can prove that the allocation was expended on physical infrastructure. Another grant, the national school nutrition grant, which is an intervention to improve the nutritional status of kids who sometimes go to school without food, was better spent because the expenditure there was over 95%. Eastern Cape, however, reported an anomaly: that they feed children for three days a week against the national norm that required that they feed children every day.
The other grant is the HIV/Aids grant. A visit to Mpumalanga revealed that the teachers were trained. However, there were no resources to give any assistance to affected or infected kids or their peers. Some school teachers elsewhere in the country have also reported the same. The teachers depended on information about the kids from the communities or other kids. There is no clear policy that empowers teachers to understand the status of children or peers.
Maybe these are not resources well spent. A lot of oversight or intervention needs to be done by all public representatives. I thank you. [Applause.]
Ms D ROBINSON: Chairperson and hon members, the Select Committee on Finance embarked on public hearings on conditional grants and capital expenditure in May 2006.
The committee invited all MECs of the relevant provincial departments to report on the following: data on trends in allocations; transfers and actual expenditure of conditional grants; capital and infrastructure expenditure of the departments; a brief assessment of the departments’ monitoring capacity for the financial year; overspending, underspending and the capacity constraints that impacted on these events; mechanisms that were put in place to deal with these and related challenges; whether monthly reports were received from receiving departments of municipalities and if not, what the relevant department was doing to ensure compliance; whether certified business plans for conditional grants were submitted to the National Treasury for the current financial year as provided for in the Division of Revenue Act – Dora; and whether service level agreements had been signed and, if so, when had they been signed.
National and provincial treasuries; and provincial departments of health, social development, education, housing, agriculture, sport and recreation, roads and transport, and public works, all made presentations. The National Treasury gave an overview of the outcome of the conditional grants and capital expenditure.
The committee raised serious concerns about the underspending of many departments in many provinces, particularly because services were not being delivered to poor people who were crying out for delivery regarding the provision of water, school nutrition, clinics, roads and schooling. Often, this was attributed to lack of capacity or skills, poor tendering processes, lack of business plans and lack of monitoring.
In the Northern Cape, for example, material underspending by R45 million occurred in social development and R41 million in the department of agriculture and land reform. There was low spending on all conditional grants.
Five or more provinces spent less than 50% of the hospital revitalisation grant and the hospital management and quality improvement grant. In the Eastern Cape, only 36% of the hospital revitalisation grant was spent, whilst 0% was spent on coroner services.
Another area of great concern is underspending in the forensic pathology services. In KwaZulu-Natal, for example, only 5% of R24,9 million was spent. In Mpumalanga, only 3% was spent on forensic pathology services. These two provinces are by no means unique. There are similar trends in other provinces, but due to time constraints I shall not enumerate any further examples.
In a country where the incidence of crime is so high and our policing and court systems so inadequate, this is a sad indictment. We need an efficient forensic service that can assist the SAPS in its investigations that would lead to apprehending criminals, particularly rapists.
The education, training and skilling of our vast population are vital if we are going to provide for the needs of our population. We need to train or find good managers and administrators to serve the needs of our people and be creative rather than restrictive, tying ourselves up in cumbersome bureaucracy. Mentorship should be set up to assist newcomers to departments so that efficient delivery and implementation can take place.
In the Northern Cape, the provincial department of health reported that there had been a 71% under-expenditure on the hospital revitalisation grant and 48% under-expenditure on the comprehensive HIV/Aids grant. The department indicated that this was due to under-performance of contractors, delays in tendering, late approvals of business plans, delays in tendering procedures and also changes to supply management.
These are problems common to many provinces and the Select Committee on Finance has made the point that provincial treasuries and provincial parliaments should play a more meaningful oversight role to assist with implementation. The money is available, it’s just not being spent and something needs to be done about this; and we all need to assist.
The committee felt that underspending on social services and disability grants was quite unacceptable. It was suggested that various mechanisms such as budget oversight committees be set up to monitor underspending and provide guidance where needed. Various other recommendations have been made. In order to improve our economy and create jobs, roads, transport and rail networks are vital. When conducting such oversight visits, the committee should focus on the availability of projects, the quality of the projects, the impact on communities and value for money.
We should also concentrate on the functioning of internal audit committees and internal controls within the departments. Many senior managers and heads of departments have not been appointed on a permanent basis and the fact that they are there in acting capacity creates uncertainty and affects service delivery. The permanent appointment of capable, experienced staff should be expedited so that South Africa can rely on a competent, professional core of officials with a solid work ethic.
Give our labour force the dignity of a job; give them opportunities to become entrepreneurs - not tied down by cumbersome restrictions - and they will be able to feed their families and have self-respect. This will also cut down on the crime rate and family violence.
The DA supports the adoption of this report. Thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]
Nk A N T MCHUNU: Sihlalo namalungu ahloniphekile, embikweni othuliweyo wezimali ngisekela kakhulu okubekwe lapha usihlalo wethu, uMnu Ralane. Lokhu okuthiwa isabiwomali kufuneka ngabe kuqhamuka kubantu ngezidingo zabo. Yebo, siyenziwa impela le so sabiwomali size sikhiphe imali enkulu engase isetshenziswe, kodwa uma usufika laphayana kubantu phansi kuba sengathi abazi ukuthi yini ababeyicelile nokufanele bayilungiselele.
Ngibona sengathi mhlawumbe kuseyikho ukuthi umuntu abuyele emuva aye kobona kahle ukuthi lokhu abantu abasuke bethi bayakucela basuke bekwazi yini ngempela, ngoba uma into iceliwe kufuneka ilungiselelwe, kwenziwe lokhu okuthiwa amaplani ebhizinisi. Uma seyenziwe iplani yebhizinisi, ifanele ithi ifika imali ibe isisebenziseka ngosuku nje lokuqala lonyaka wezimali. Kufuneka kungabi bikho lobu bubhudubhudu obenzekayo, okuthi uma sekuya koshaya uNovemba kube kuqalwa kuthiwa, “Yinkathi siyiqalile-ke ukuyisebenzisa le mali ebenisinikeze yona. Besisalungisa amaplani ebhizinisi.”
Sengathi kukhona okungahambi kahle hle okusafuneka sikubhekisise kulokhu kusizana kwethu nezifundazwe kanye nomasipala – okuyizona zindawo eziwenza ngempela umsebenzi. Le ndlela yokusebenza ngokuthi imali iqalwe ukusetshenziswa ngoNovemba kanti ngoDisemba kuzoba yiholide, yilokho-ke okwenza kube khona imali esalayo. Lokho kudala ukuthi kuthiwe kukhona imali esetshenziswe ngaphansi kwezinga elifanele, imali isale kodwa ingafikanga lapho ifanele ifike khona.
Mhlawumbe, ngamanye amazwi, kufuneka ke sibheke khona lokhu esithi kukho, “The people shall govern.” Abantu bayabusa kodwa-ke manje ekubuseni kwabo bayazenzela yini lezi zinto noma mhlawumbe kufuneka kuqhamuke kuthina emahhovisi lapho sithi khona, “Kufanele kwenziwe lokhu, nalokhu?”
Manje abantu laphaya phansi kufanele basizwe uhulumeni futhi basizwe abasebenzi bakahulumeni. Le ndaba yokuthi kukhona i-consultant noma kuthiwe kukhona umuntu othile ozobasebenzela yenza bagcine bengasazi ukuthi yini eyenzekayo lapho. Ake ngifanekise nje: NgeSonto, ngenkathi ngifika ekhaya ngikhuluma ngendaba yezingadi, bathi, “Hhayi sibone iloli liya laphaya ehlathini lafike labiya laqeda.”
Uma ngifika khona, ngempela kunengadi ebiyiwe esehlathini kodwa akukho muntu owaziyo ukuthi yayibiwe ubani, ibiyelweni nokuthi obani abasekomidini. Kusho ukuthi kusafuneka ke sibukisise ukuthi kulokhu kusebenza kwethu abantu bathinteka kanjani ngempela.
Asebekhulumile baye bathinta izigaxa zemali. Yebo, abantu bayaziswa ngezigaxa kodwa ekugcineni izigaxa zemali abantu abazidli. Ngikhuluma ngento mina ezophatheka, umuntu athi, “Uhulumeni ufike wangenzela nansi into – senze lokhu senza nalokhu.” Ngoba uhulumeni akayenzi into eyedwa, kufuneka asebenze ngokubambisana nabantu abakhona phansi.
Kuye kuthi uma kuqala unyaka, uMnu ohloniphekile, uNgqongqoshe wezeziMali, athi, “Imali iyizigaxagaxa, amabhiliyoni ngamabhiliyoni.” Kanti namanje abantu bayangishayela ucingo bethi, “We Mama uMchunu, wathi kunamabhiliyoni ngamabhiliyoni. Aphi? Asikawaboni?” Ngibona sengathi kufuneka umuntu ake ahlehlele emuva aye kolungisa le ndaba yokuthi amabhiliyoni aphelela kuphi.
Ngibonga kakhulu eNdlini kodwa mina ngizibona nginomthwalo wokuthi ngibuyele emuva ngiye kochaza ukuthi amabhiliyoni aphelele kuphi na ngoba besisenzile isabiwomali sawo. Ngiyabonga Sihlalo. (Translation of isiZulu speech follows.)
[Ms A N T MCHUNU: Chairperson and hon members, on the tabled financial report, I hereby very much second what has been said by our chairperson of the Select Committee on Finance, Mr Ralane. The budget allocation should in fact match the people’s needs. It is indeed true that the budget allocation is done but when one goes down to the grassroots level one finds that people do not even know what is it that they had asked for from the government and they do not even know what is it that they will budget for.
I believe that we need to go back to the people and see for ourselves what it is that our people need and see if they really mean it. It is true that when people make certain financial requests they should also get that. And people also have a role to play by producing well-prepared business plans. If the business plan is there, the money should be used as soon as it arrives in the coffers of the relevant departments, just on the first day of the financial year. This scramble should be done away with where you find that late in November certain departments start saying, “It is now that we have started using the funds allocated to us. We were still busy with the business plans.”
It seems something is going very wrong in our working relationship with the provinces and the municipalities – which are the places that really do a lot of work – and this really needs our urgent attention. This thing of starting to use the allocated funds late in November, and only to find that in December it is holidays, leads to underspending. This leads people to say there was underspending, yet the money was not even used for what it was supposed to have been used for.
Maybe, in other words, we also need to revisit the clause, “The people shall govern.” Well, indeed the people shall govern, but the question is, do the people do these things on their own when they govern or it is us who merely come with suggestions from offices to say this and that must be done?
Therefore the people at grassroots level must be helped by government and the public servants at large. This thing of sending the so-called consultants to do things for our people is not right because the people end up not knowing what exactly it is that is happening. Let me give a practical example here: Just last Sunday when I arrived home I spoke about gardening and the people simply said to me, “Well, we saw a truck with people driving to the bushes and they fenced the area there and when they finished, they left.”
Indeed when I went to the bushes, I found that there was a garden which is inside the bushes and it was fenced, yet no one knew who had fenced it and the reasons for fencing it, and people do not even know who the committee members are. This means therefore that we still need to do some kind of retrospection and see how the people down there are affected by our work. The previous speakers mentioned large sums of money. Indeed people are told about substantial sums of money which in the end do not reach them. I am here referring to something tangible where a person would say, “The government did this for me” or “we did this and that and so forth”. The government cannot do something for the people without the people at grassroots level.
In the beginning of every year the hon Minister of Finance says, “There are large sums of money, it’s billions and billions.” Even now people still call me from everywhere saying, “Madam Mchunu, you said there are billions and billions of rands. Where are they? We haven’t seen them here yet.” I feel one needs to go back to investigate as to where these billions disappear to.
I thank the House very much, but I feel I have a duty to go back to the people and explain to them where these billions have disappeared into because they had been apportioned. I thank you, Chairperson.]
Mr M O ROBERTSON: Chairperson and hon members, my immediate goal is to focus on agriculture, social development and the sport sector in our provinces, in respect of the public hearings on conditional grants and capital expenditure.
Allow me to start by saying that, regarding social development, the main strategic responsibilities in the provinces are to form social assistance transfers such as income support to the poor and vulnerable individuals, the elderly, the disabled and children under the age of 14 years; provide services to focus on HIV, family abuse and drugs; and to monitor communities in order to assist with programmes which provide food relief, poverty alleviation and community support.
There are approximately 10 million South Africans who are receiving the above-mentioned grants. Against the context of my introductory remarks, I wish to draw the following to your attention. Underspending amongst all provinces amounted to R2 billion for the financial year ending March 2006, with Free State and Gauteng recording the largest underspending - this underspending while there are investigations into and prosecutions for fraudulent activities, and the reviewing of all temporary disability grants. I would like to draw your attention to agriculture in the nine provinces of South Africa. Regarding the land care programme, the objective is to address problems concerning natural and agricultural resources, and to improve the socioeconomic status and food security of the rural communities.
Agriculture spent R47,7 million, or 119,2%, including roll-overs of the R40 million allocated; and about R52,9 million, including provincial roll- overs. Transfers amounted to 100%. The highest spending provinces were Free State with 175,3%, Eastern Cape with 171% and Mpumalanga with 150,6%. The lowest spending provinces in agriculture were North West at 21,1% and the Northern Cape at 91%. Concerning the comprehensive agricultural support programme, the objectives are as follows: to enhance support services; to promote and facilitate agricultural development; to ensure beneficiaries of the land and agrarian programme get access to resources regarding the usage of land. Provinces reported spending on the above as follows: an amount of R265,7 million or 106,3% of the budget, which includes 86% of roll-overs of the R250 million allocated. There is also an amount of R309 million which includes provincial roll-overs that were spent.
The highest spending provinces in agriculture was the Free State at 172,9%, followed by Eastern Cape at 141,1% and Limpopo at 79,9%. The lowest spending provinces in agriculture were North West with 13%, Northern Cape with 69,7% and Gauteng with 79,9%. The serious concerns are the roll-overs that are happening in our departments. Those should be addressed accordingly.
Last but not least, is sport and recreation. This programme is for the promotion of mass participation within disadvantaged communities in a selected number of sport activities. It also facilitates the empowerment of communities to manage these activities in conjunction with provincial departments responsible for sport.
The budget for sport was R23,3 million or 97% that was spent, and 94,6%, including roll-overs amounting to R24,6 million – that includes provincial roll-overs. The highest spending province for sport was Mpumalanga, with 119% spent; Western Cape spent 99%, and the lowest was Gauteng with 80%, North West spent 92%, and Free State spent 93%.
Underspending by the national and provincial departments impacts negatively on our pledge to implement the people’s contract and to ensure our vision of a better life for all. Information on underspending of operational budgets is published regularly. The Select Committee on Finance, through regular convening of public hearings, does interrogate these documents. I thank you.
Mr D J BOTHA: Chairperson, in respect of the public hearings on conditional grants and capital expenditure, my current brief is focused on housing and transport in the different provinces. By the end of 2005-06, approximately R37,4 billion had been spent on housing delivery since 1994-95. This includes construction of 1,8 million new houses and the transfer of 549 597 units of old housing stock to poor households, including the replacement cost of housing stock transferred to occupants.
It is estimated that property assets worth R73 billion have been transferred in South Africa and elsewhere since 1994. In response to criticism that the national housing programme has not transformed apartheid settlement patterns or promoted functional housing markets, I would like to state that there is a comprehensive plan that is aimed at upgrading informal settlements. Poor households also move around more. That means that informal settlement upgrading projects need to provide affordable rental accommodation as a priority over individual units for qualifying beneficiaries. The public hearings revealed that provinces spent 102,9% of the housing conditional grants. The question arises as to where the additional resources of housing have come from; and has provincial expenditure been compromised in order to achieve overspending in housing?
The big concern of the committee is what happened with backlogs of poor quality housing in provinces, because there is no budget for that. There are lots of houses in provinces that are standing empty and are actually not occupied by communities because they refuse to move in.
Dit is algemeen waar dat klinieke, skole, huise en volhoubare gemeenskappe nie opgerig kan word sonder verwysing na mekaar nie. Paaie word gebou om toegang te verleen tot openbare fasiliteite. In enige dorpsbeplanningsprojek, hetsy stedelik of landelik, moet die eerste fase die padbou wees, sodat die vestiging van volhoubare gemeenskappe kan voortbestaan. Die eerste onderneming is dat paaie beplan en gebou moet word, voordat enige planne gemaak kan word vir die ontwikkeling van gemeenskappe.
‘n Integrale deelnetwerk van paaie is ook ‘n belangrike faktor vir die bou van ‘n lewensvatbare ekonomie. ‘n Goeie padstelsel het daartoe gelei dat landbouprodukte, markte en verbruikers stiptelik en doeltreffend bereik. Die padnetwerk laat die openbare vervoer toe om effektief te opereer. Van besondere belang vir die toeristebedryf is dat die padnetwerk toegang verleen tot die skilderagtige skoonheid van ons land. Openbare vervoer bou die land in ‘n unieke wyse deur mense te verbind tot werksgeleenthede en mekaar. Deur ‘n nasie te bou, verminder die afstand tussen die verskillende gemeenskappe.
Met verwysing na die voorbereidings vir die Sokkerwêreldbekertoernooi in 2010, en ten spyte van negatiewe publisiteit en kommentare deur doemprofete, kan in hierdie verhoor aangevoer word dat alle gebiede waar die Sokkerwêreldbekertoernooi aangebied sal word, op hoogte van die tyd is met hul voorbereidings vir plekke, paaie, lughawens en vervoer. Met hierdie inleidende opmerkings, wil ek graag u aandag vestig op die beslissende uitslae van die openbare verhoor met betrekking tot die uitgawes vir paaie.
In al die provinsies, is die begrotingsverdeling vir die opgradering en padbou ver benede die bedrag benodig. Die provinsiale departement van paaie en vervoer in KwaZulu-Natal verduidelik dat alhoewel die begrotingsverdeling verhoog is, hulle steeds onvoldoende gefinansier word in vergelyking met hul mandaat. Die provinsie Wes-Kaap byvoorbeeld, rapporteer dat dit tussen R7 en R8 miljoen kos om ‘n dubbelvoertuigpad te bou en tussen R4 en R5 miljoen vir ‘n enkelbaanteerpad. Die Limpompo provinsiale departement van paaie en vervoer is die enigste provinsiale departement wat gebruik maak van ‘n padagentskap om nuwe paaie te bou en te herstel. Alle finansiële bronne geoormerk vir padbou, word aan hierdie agentskap oorhandig. Vrae is in die verhore geopper of die oordrag van voorwaardelike toelae nie strydig is met die Wet op Verdeling van Inkomste nie. Die Nasionale Tesourie het onderneem om verslag te doen van hierdie onderwerp.
Ek wil ook net noem dat 64% van alle paaie in die Limpopo-provinsie die verantwoordelikheid is van die munisipaliteite. In daardie opsig, het die munisipaliteit geen kapasiteit om dit te doen nie. Teen hierdie agtergrond moet die provinsiale departement in elk geval grondpaaie en teerpaaie doen.
Die Gauteng provinsiale departement van vervoer en openbare werke rapporteer dat 100% van die hulpbronne in die finansiële jaar gebruik is, en verstrek ook ‘n splitsing op die die besteding per projek op voorwaardelike toelaes vir die finansiële jaar wat in Maart 2006 eindig.
Die padnetwerk in hierdie land sluit 532 000 km geproklameerde nasionale, provinsiale en munisipale paaie in, en omtrent 221 000 km ongeklassifiseerde paaie. Hierdie paaie is nie geproklameer nie, omdat hulle nog nie in die padstelsel van die nasionale padwerke offisieel opgeteken is nie.
Die nasionale regering doen verantwoording vir 1,7% geklassifiseerde paaie, provinsies vir 65% en munisipaliteite vir 33% van die padnetwerk. Provinsiale paaie is hoofsaaklik gruispaaie. Die groot bekommernis, ook in die komitee, is wat die provinsies begroot en doen in die landelike gebiede. Die nasionale paaie is goed en rybaar, maar in die landelike gebiede, totaal landelike gebiede, is hulle werklik onrybaar. Taxi’s en busse wil nie soontoe gaan nie. Baie dankie. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[It is generally true that clinics, schools and sustainable communities cannot be set up without their bearing any relation to one another. Roads are constructed to provide access to public facilities. In any city planning project, whether urban or rural, the first phase should be constructing roads to ensure the continued existence of sustainable community settlements. The primary undertaking should be planning for and constructing roads prior to making any plans for the development of communities.
An integrated shared road network is also a significant factor for building a viable economy. A good road system will allow agricultural products to reach the markets and consumers promptly and efficiently. The road network allows public transport to operate effectively. Of particular importance to the tourism industry, is the fact that the road network provides access to the scenic beauty of our country. Public transport contributes in a unique way to building our country by linking people to job opportunities and to one another. By building a nation, the gap between the different communities will shrink.
With reference to preparations for the 2010 World Cup, and regardless of the negative publicity and comments by the prophets of doom, the point can be made in this hearing that all the areas which will be hosting the Soccer World Cup Tournament are on track with their preparations regarding accommodation, roads, airports and transport. With these introductory remarks, I would like to focus your attention on the final outcome of the public hearings with regard to the expenditure on roads.
In all provinces the budget allocation for the upgrading and construction of roads is far less than the amount that is required. The provincial department of roads and transport in KwaZulu-Natal explained that even though the budget allocation has been increased, in comparison to their mandate their funding is still insufficient. For example, the Western Cape Province reported that it costs between R7 and R8 million rand to build a dual carriage road for vehicles and between R4 and R5 million for a single- laned tar road.
The provincial department of roads and transport for Limpopo is the only provincial department that makes use of the services of a road agency to build and maintain new roads. All the financial resources earmarked for the building of roads are handed over to this agency. During the hearings questions were raised about whether the transfer of conditional grants is not in conflict with the Division of Revenue Act. The National Treasury has undertaken to report on this matter.
I also want to mention that the municipalities are responsible for 64% of all the roads in the Limpopo Province. In that regard, the municipality does not have any capacity to do so. It is against this background that the provincial department should do gravel roads and tar roads in each case.
Gauteng’s provincial department of transport and public works reported that 100% of the resources was used in the financial year, and also mentioned a split in the expenditure per project on conditional grants for the financial year ending March 2006.
The road network in this country includes 532 000 km proclaimed national, provincial and municipal roads and approximately 221 000 km roads that have not been classified. These roads have not been proclaimed, because they have not yet officially been included in the road system of the national roadworks as yet.
National government accounts for 1,7% of the classified road network, provinces for 65% and municipalities for 33%. Provincial roads are essentially gravel roads. The major concern, also in the committee, is what provinces are budgeting and doing in the rural areas. The national roads are in a good condition for driving, but in the rural areas, entirely rural areas, they really are impracticable. Taxis and buses do not want to go there. Thank you very much. [Applause.]]
Mr B J MKHALIPHI: Hon Chairperson, hon members, funding for health services in South Africa is just a little below 9% of the gross domestic product. While public funding constitutes substantially less than half of total health expenditure, it funds services for almost 85% of the population. Nearly 60% of health funding goes towards funding private health care for the wealthiest 15% of the population. This therefore translates into a significant difference in per capita spending between those covered by the private sector and those covered by the public sector.
South Africa’s health expenditure, as a proportion of GDP, is high relative to comparative countries. South Africa is just behind Argentina, when compared to similar countries. Almost 85% of public-sector funding flows through provincial health departments, which are responsible for the delivery of the bulk of public health services. Local government plays an important role in delivering clinic services in some provinces.
As we are aware, the promulgation of the National Health Act in 2003 dealt with government’s role as the provider of primary health care services. The Act clarified, amongst other things - with the exception of explicitly defined environmental health services - that provinces are responsible for funding primary health care. Of course, with the promulgation of this Act, new responsibilities for co-ordination and integration occurred.
In respect of the public hearings on conditional grants and capital expenditure, we will focus briefly on the following matters in as far as health is concerned. The National Treasury, in its submission to our one and only Select Committee on Finance, stipulated that the preliminary outcome for spending by provinces on health matters in the financial year ending March 2006 was that R234 million remained unspent. In other words, 99% of the provincial health budget has been spent.
The Eastern Cape is responsible for half of the national underexpenditure in the health budget. Five provinces have spent less than 99% of their hospital revitalisation grants. The purpose of this grant, as we know, is to modernise infrastructure equipment in hospitals and to have sustainable infrastructure from which modern, equitable and sustainable services can be delivered. But projects were, regrettably, delayed.
Although financial resources are allocated and committed, the health departments could not spend the full amount allocated, their overriding reason being the delay in the execution of tenders, invariably because of legal objections. It was further reported that the Eastern Cape had not succeeded in spending R1,7 million of the integrated nutritional programme grant. The provincial department explained to us that the late delivery of food supplements caused this underspending.
The Select Committee on Finance is concerned about the following matters: the late approval of tenders and the challenges in awarding these tenders to successful bidders, which at times adversely affects the delivery of health services. A request was made to the Financial and Fiscal Commission for an additional submission to this committee about income, in terms of the school nutrition programme in primary and secondary schools, and the disparities that exist within this sector.
Additional challenges that we observed during our public hearings included the following: while modern hospitals are provided in some provinces, there is invariably no focus placed on feeder clinics that will feed these hospitals. Therefore you find that more and more people flock to these tertiary institutions - bringing about overcrowding in these hospitals - instead of going to the primary health care centres which are the clinics.
Our own intervention and discussions with these departments have also made this lovely lady they call the Division of Revenue Act, Dora, more favourable to our provinces. It has been taken down off the shelf and it is now a living document in terms of which this committee continues to make inroads into our system of intergovernmental financial relations. Hon Chairperson, I thank you very much. [Applause].
Debate concluded.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): I shall now put the question, and the question is that the report be adopted. As the decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether all delegation heads are present in the Chamber to cast their provinces’ votes. Are all delegation heads present?
In accordance with Rule 71, I shall first allow provinces an opportunity to make their declarations of vote if they so wish. We shall now proceed to the voting on the question. I shall do this in alphabetical order per province. Delegation heads must please indicate to the Chair whether they vote in favour or against, or abstain from voting. Eastern Cape?
Mr D G MKONO: Supports.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Free State?
Mr J W LE ROUX: In favour.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Gauteng?
Mr E M SOGONI: Elethu. [We support it.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): KwaZulu-Natal?
Mr D D GAMEDE: Elethu. [We support it.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Limpopo?
Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Re a e thekga. [We support it.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Mpumalanga?
Ms F NYANDA: In favour.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Northern Cape?
Mr M C GOEIEMAN: Elana. [Supports.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant) North West?
Rev P MOATSHE: Ke wa rona. [We support it.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Western Cape?
Mr N J MACK: In favour.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): All provinces voted in favour. I therefore declare the report adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE – CONVENTION BETWEEN THE REPUBLIC OF SOUTH AFRICA AND THE KINGDOM OF SPAIN FOR THE AVOIDANCE OF DOUBLE TAXATION AND THE PREVENTION OF FISCAL EVASION WITH RESPECT TO TAXES ON INCOME AND ON CAPITAL
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE – AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE GOVERNMENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF SOUTH AFRICA AND THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED REPUBLIC OF TANZANIA FOR THE AVOIDANCE OF DOUBLE TAXATION AND THE PREVENTION OF FISCAL EVASION WITH RESPECT TO TAXES ON INCOME
Mr T S RALANE: Chairperson, we propose that the two reports be adopted by the House. Thank you. [Applause.] [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Mr Goeieman! Hon member, we don’t behave like that in the House. Please let’s remember that this is a House, and people at home are watching what you are doing. Hon members, that concludes the debate. I shall now put the question in respect of the second order. The question is that the report be adopted. As the decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether all delegation heads are present in the Chamber to cast their provinces’ votes. Are all delegation heads present?
HON MEMBERS: Yes.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you. In accordance with Rule 71, I shall first allow provinces the opportunity to make their declarations of vote if they so wish. Is there any province that wishes to do so? None. We shall now proceed to the voting on the question. I will do so in alphabetical order. Delegation heads must please indicate to the Chair whether they vote in favour or against or abstain from voting. Eastern Cape?
Mr D G MKONO: I-Eastern Cape iyaxhasa. [Eastern Cape supports.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Free State?
Mr J W LE ROUX: In favour.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Gauteng?
Ms N F MAZIBUKO: Gauteng is in favour. The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: KwaZulu-Natal?
Mr D D GAMEDE: Siyayixhasa. [We support it.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Limpopo?
Ms H F MATLANYANE: Limpopo is in favour.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Mpumalanga?
Ms F NYANDA: Mpumalanga supports.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Northern Cape?
Mr M C GOEIEMAN: Noord-Kaap ondersteun. [Northern Cape supports.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: North West?
Rev P MOATSHE: Re a e tlatsa. [We support it.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Western Cape?
Mr N J MACK: Ondersteun. [Supports.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: All nine provinces voted in favour. I therefore declare the report adopted in terms of section 65 of the Constitution.
Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I shall now put the question in respect of the third Order. The question is that the report be adopted. As the decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I’ll first ascertain whether all the delegation heads are present in the Chamber to cast their provinces votes. Are all delegation heads present?
In terms of Rule 71 I’ll first allow provinces the opportunity to make their declaration of vote if they so wish. Is there any province that wants to do so? None. We shall now proceed to the voting on the question. I’ll do so in alphabetical order per province. Delegation heads must please indicate whether they vote in favour, against or abstain. Eastern Cape?
Mr D G MKONO: I-Eastern Cape iyaxhasa. [Eastern Cape supports.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Free State?
Mr J W LE ROUX: In favour. The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Gauteng?
Ms N F MAZIBUKO: I-Gauteng iyayivuma. [Gauteng supports.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: KwaZulu-Natal?
Mr D D GAMEDE: Siyayixhasa. [We support it.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Limpopo?
Ms H F MATLANYANE: Limpopo ondersteun. [Limpopo supports.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Mpumalanga?
Ms F NYANDA: Mpumalanga supports.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Northern Cape?
Mr R J TAU: Kapa Bokone ea tlatsa. [Northern Cape supports.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: North West?
Rev P MOATSHE: Re a e tlatsa. [We support it.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Western Cape?
Mr N J MACK: Ondersteun. [Supports.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: All nine provinces voted in favour. I therefore declare the report adopted in terms of section 65 of the Constitution.
Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SERVICES - CONVENTION ON INTERESTS IN MOBILE EQUIPMENT
Mnr F ADAMS: Agb Voorsitter, agb lede, graag wil ek die verslag voorstel soos ter tafel gelê in die Aankondigings, Tertafellegings en Voorstelle van 21 Junie 2006 en versoek die Huis om dit te aanvaar. Ek dank u. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[Mr F ADAMS: Hon Chairperson and hon members, I would like to introduce the report as tabled in the Announcements, Tablings and Committee Reports of 21 June 2006 and request the House to adopt it. I thank you. [Applause.]]
Debate concluded.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I shall now put the question on the fourth Order. The question is that the report be adopted. As the decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether all delegation heads are present in the Chamber to cast their provinces’ votes. Are they all present? They are.
In accordance with Rule 71, I shall first allow provinces the opportunity to make their declarations of vote if they so wish. Is there any province that wishes to do so? None.
We shall now proceed to the voting on the question. I shall do so in alphabetical order as per province. The delegation heads must therefore indicate whether they vote in favour or against or abstain from voting. Eastern Cape?
Mr D G MKONO: Eastern Cape siyayixhasa. [Eastern Cape supports.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Free State?
Mr J W LE ROUX: Vrystaat ondersteun. [Free State Supports.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Gauteng?
Mr M A MZIZI: I-Gauteng ithi elethu. [Gauteng supports.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: KwaZulu-Natal?
Mr D D GAMEDE: KwaZulu-Natali siyayixhasa. [KwaZulu-Natal supports.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Limpopo?
Ms H F MATLANYANE: Limpopo ondesteun. [Limpopo supports.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Mpumalanga?
Ms F NYANDA: EMpumalanga siyayivuma. [Mpumalanga supports.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Northern Cape?
Mr M C GOEIEMAN: Northern Cape ke ya rona. [Northern Cape supports.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: North West?
Rev P MOATSHE: Re a e tlatsa. [North West supports.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Western Cape?
Mr N J MACK: Western Cape supports.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: All provinces voted in favour. I therefore declare the Report adopted in terms of section 65 of the Constitution.
Report agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SERVICES – PROTOCOL TO CONVENTION ON INTERNATIONAL INTERESTS IN MOBILE EQUIPMENT ON MATTERS SPECIFIC TO AIRCRAFT EQUIPMENT
Mrs H F MATLANYANE: Chairperson, hon members, South Africa hosted a diplomatic conference in Cape Town from 29 October 2001 to 16 November
- The International Civil Aviation Organisation and the Institute for the Unification of Private Law co-sponsored the convention and protocol. South Africa signed the convention on 16 November 2001. To date, 32 states have signed the convention. The convention entered into came into effect on 1 April 2004 after the third ratification. The protocol came into effect on 1 March 2006.
The convention and protocol have as their aim the promotion of asset-based financing by establishing a legal framework that will protect interests in aircraft equipment. The proposed Convention on International Interests in Mobile Equipment Bill of 2005, which incorporates both the convention and protocol will give legal effect in South Africa to this important international legal instrument.
The relationship between the convention and protocol is as follows: Article 6 of the convention prescribes that the convention and the protocol shall be read and interpreted together as a single instrument. Should there be inconsistency between the convention and the protocol, the protocol shall prevail. The convention is less stringent than the protocol, for example, in addition to events that may constitute default, Article 11 of the convention permits the creditor and the debtor to agree in writing to other additional events that may constitute a default.
The UN International Institute for the Unification of Private Law – Unidroit, has its headquarters in Rome. States can deposit their instruments on ratification in respect of the Cape Town convention and its protocol there. Article 49 of the convention prescribes that the convention would only enter into force on the first day of the month following the expiry of three months after the date of the deposit of the third instrument of ratification.
Consistent with the select committee’s report in the ATC of 21 June 2006, it is further recommended that the convention and protocol be ratified by Parliament in accordance with section 231(2) of the Constitution. I thank you. [Applause.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: That concludes the debate. I shall now put the question. The question is that the report be adopted. As the decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether all delegation heads are present in the Chamber to cast their provinces’ votes. Are all delegation heads present?
In accordance with Rule 71 I shall first allow provinces the opportunity to make their declarations of vote if they so wish. Is there any province that wishes to do so? None. We shall now proceed to the voting on the question. I shall do so in alphabetical order per province. The delegation heads must then indicate to the Chair whether they vote in favour or against or abstain from voting. Eastern Cape?
Mr D G MKONO: SiyiMpuma Koloni siyaxhasa. [Eastern Cape supports.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Free State?
Mr J W LE ROUX: In favour.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Gauteng?
Ms N F MAZIBUKO: Gauteng ea dumela. [Gauteng supports.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: KwaZulu-Natal?
Mr D D GAMEDE: Siyayixhasa. [We support it.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Limpopo?
Ms H F MATLANYANE: Limpopo ondersteun. [Limpopo supports.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Mpumalanga?
Ms F NYANDA: Mpumalanga supports.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Northern Cape? Mr R J TAU: Noord-Kaap ondersteun. [Northern Cape supports.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: North West?
Rev P MOATSHE: Re a e tshehetsa. [North West supports.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Western Cape?
Mr N J MACK: Western Cape in favour.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: All nine provinces voted in favour. I therefore declare the report adopted in terms of section 65 of the Constitution.
Report accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON SECURITY AND CONSITITUTIONAL AFFAIRS - DRAFT NOTICE ON REMUNERATION OF JUDGES
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON SECURITY AND CONSITUTIONAL AFFAIRS – DRAFT NOTICE ON REMUNERATION OF MAGISTRATES
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, on a point of procedure: It is for the second time that when Table staff members read an Order it is not recorded on the system. That may cause problems, because Hansard should reflect the order in which we were voting as the House. We have requested this more than several times. We request that the responsible section looks into that.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: OK. Can we please do that, because it is important for the records of the House to be straight.
Mr M A MZIZI: Chairperson, unfortunately, I will disappoint my colleagues: I am going to be long and it’s going to be the longest day. [Laughter.]
The report before us today deals with the remuneration of judges and magistrates. The remuneration and conditions of employment of judges have long been the purview of the Independent Commission for the Remuneration of Public Office Bearers. This conditionally established commission has served the interest of the judiciary as well as the state since its creation. Because the remuneration and conditions of the employment of judges are largely uncontroversial, I am confident that my hon colleagues will allow me to move on to the reports dealing with the magistracy.
We welcome the fact that the magistrates will no longer be considered part of the Public Service and, as such, an independent commission will henceforth also determine their remuneration and conditions of employment.
We welcome the fact that the old system of merit awards for the magistracy, while resorting under the Public Service, has now been done away with as it has caused unhappiness, unfairness and led to the magistracy being compromised in certain instances. For instance, we recall that only a select few magistrates received motor vehicles in the previous system, such as the chief magistrates. The new system will provide all magistrates with a car allowance, which will create equality, fairness and a more transparent system. We welcome this change, as it will definitely assist the morale of the magistrates and will lead to more skilled and experienced people being drawn into the magistracy.
Generally speaking, we feel that the new system of remuneration and conditions of employment of magistrates will lead to a better magistracy with well-motivated incumbents, and with the real possibility that better qualified and more skilled professionals will enter into the magistracy in the years to come. That bodes well for the administration and justice in South Africa.
Ngamafishane ngithi, egameni lekomidi, ngicela ukuthi le Ndlu iwemukele lo mbiko. Ngiyabonga. [Ihlombe.] [In short, on behalf of the committee, I request the House to adopt this report. I thank you. [Applause.]]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: That concludes the debate. I shall now put the question in respect of the sixth order.
The question is that the report be adopted. As this decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I’ll first ascertain whether all the delegation heads are present in the Chamber to cast their provinces’ votes. Are you all present?
HON MEMBERS: Yes.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you. I shall now also allow provinces the opportunity to make declaration in terms of Rule 71 if they so wish. Is there any province wishing to make any declaration of vote? None. We shall now proceed to the voting on the question. I shall do this in alphabetical order per province. Delegation heads must please indicate to the Chair whether they vote in favour or against or abstain from voting. Eastern Cape?
Mr D G MKHONO: SiyiMpuma Koloni siyaxhasa. [Eastern Cape supports.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Free State?
Mr J W LE ROUX: In favour.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Gauteng?
Ms N F MAZIBUKO: Siyayisekela. [We support it.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: KwaZulu-Natal?
Mr D D GAMEDE: Siyawesekela. [We support it.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Limpopo?
Ms H F MATLANYANE: Re a e thega. [We support.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Mpumalanga?
Ms F NYANDA: We support.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Northern Cape?
Mr M C GOEIEMAN: Northern Cape supports.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: North West?
Mr A J L MOSEKI: North West e e ema nokeng. [North West supports.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Western Cape?
Mr N J MACK: Ondersteun. [Supports.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: All nine provinces voted in favour. I therefore declare the report adopted in terms of section 65 of the Constitution.
I shall now put the question in respect of the seventh Order. The question is that the report be adopted. As this decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain whether delegation heads are present. Are you all present? HON MEMBERS: Yes.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you. I shall now also allow provinces the opportunity to make declarations of vote in terms of Rule 71 if they so wish. Is there any province wishing to make any declaration of vote? None.
We shall now proceed to the voting on the question. I shall do this in alphabetical order per province. Delegation heads must please indicate to the Chair whether they vote in favour or against or abstain from voting. Eastern Cape?
Mr D G MKHONO: I-Eastern Cape iyaxhasa. [Eastern Cape supports.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Free State?
Mr J W LE ROUX: In favour.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Gauteng?
Ms N F MAZIBUKO: I-Gauteng iyawuvuma. [Gauteng supports.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: KwaZulu-Natal?
Mr D D GAMEDE: Iyawesekela. [Supports.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Limpopo?
Ms H F MATLANYANE: Re a e thekga. [We support.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Mpumalanga?
Ms F NYANDA: Siyavuma. [We support.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Northern Cape? Mr M C GOEIEMAN: Re a e thekga. [We support.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: North West?
Mr A J L MOSEKI: North West e a e tlatsa. [North West supports.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Western Cape?
Mr N J MACK: Ondersteun. [Supports.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: All nine provinces voted in favour. I therefore declare the report adopted in terms of section 65 of the Constitution.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF JOINT STANDING COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE -
REPORTS OF INSPECTOR-GENERAL OF INTELLIGENCE
Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Chairperson, colleagues and hon members, you will remember that there was one member of the public who complained that he was put under surveillance illegally. That led to the Minister establishing a committee of inquiry to investigate those allegations. What happened is history. The report I am tabling before the House was published in the ATCs on 21 August 2006, and I am convinced and know that my colleagues have gone through the report. I therefore, formally, on behalf of the committee, table this report for noting by the Council. [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
Report noted.
The Council adjourned at 15:27. ____
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS
WEDNESDAY, 13 SEPTEMBER 2006
ANNOUNCEMENTS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
The Speaker and the Chairperson
- Introduction of Bills
(1) The Minister of Home Affairs
a) Films and Publications Amendment Bill [B 27 – 2006] (National
Assembly – proposed sec 75) [Explanatory summary of Bill and
prior notice of its introduction published in Government
Gazette No 29169 of 31 Augustus 2006.]
b) Immigration Amendment Bill [B 28 – 2006] (National Assembly –
proposed sec 75) [Explanatory summary of Bill and prior notice
of its introduction published in Government Gazette No 29169
of 31 August 2006.]
Introduction and referral to the Portfolio Committee on Home
Affairs of the National Assembly, as well as referral to the
Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for classification in terms of Joint
Rule 160.
In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the classification of
the Bill may be submitted to the JTM within three parliamentary
working days.
TABLINGS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
- The Speaker and the Chairperson
a) Report and Financial Statements of the Auditor-General for 2005-
2006, including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the
Financial Statements for 2005-2006 [RP 202-2006].
- The Minister of Health
a) Report and Financial Statements of the South African Medical
Research Council (MRC) for 2005-2006, including the Report of the
Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2005-2006 [RP 146-
2006].
b) Report and Financial Statements of the National Health Laboratory
Service (NHLS) for 2005-2006, including the Report of the
Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements for 2005-2006.
THURSDAY, 14 SEPTEMBER 2006
TABLINGS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
-
The Speaker and the Chairperson a) Report and Financial Statements of the South African Human Rights Commission (SAHRC) for 2005-2006, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2005-2006.
-
The Minister of Arts and Culture
a) Report and Financial Statements of the Market Theatre Foundation for
2005-2006, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the
Financial Statements for 2005-2006.
- The Minister of Science and Technology
a) Report and Financial Statements of the Human Science Research
Council (HSRC) for 2005-2006, including the Report of the Auditor-
General on the Financial Statements for 2005-2006 [RP 104-2006].
COMMITTEE REPORTS
National Council of Provinces
-
Report of the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs on Draft Notice on Remuneration of Magistrates, dated 13 September 2006:
The Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs, having considered the request for approval, by Parliament of the Draft Notice on Remuneration of Magistrates in terms of the Magistrates’ Act, 1993 (Act No.90 of 1993) referred to it, recommends that the Council, in terms of section 12(3) of the Act, approve the said draft Notice.
-
Report of the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs on Draft Notice on Remuneration of Judges, dated 13 September 2006:
The Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs, having considered the request for approval, by Parliament of the Draft Notice on Remuneration of Judges in terms of the Judges’ Remuneration and Conditions of Employment Act, 2001 (Act No.47 of 2001) referred to it, recommends that the Council, in terms of section 2(4) of the Act, approve the said draft Notice.
FRIDAY, 15 SEPTEMBER 2006
ANNOUNCEMENTS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
The Speaker and the Chairperson
- Introduction of Bills
(1) The Minister of Trade and Industry
a) Accreditation for Conformity Assessment, Calibration and Good
Laboratory Practice Bill [B 29 – 2006] (National Assembly –
proposed sec 75) [Explanatory summary of Bill and prior notice
of its introduction published in Government Gazette No 29170 of
31 August 2006.]
Introduction and referral to the Portfolio Committee on Trade and
Industry of the National Assembly, as well as referral to the
Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for classification in terms of Joint
Rule 160.
In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the classification of
the Bill may be submitted to the JTM within three parliamentary
working days.
TABLINGS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
- The Minister of Finance
(a) Government Notice No R.843 published in Government Gazette No
29139 dated 18 August 2006: Amendment of prescribed fees in terms of
the Pension Funds Act, 1956 (Act No 24 of 1956).
b) Government Notice No R.847 published in Government Gazette No 29145
dated 18 August 2006: Financial Services Ombud Schemes Regulations,
in terms of the Financial Services Ombud Schemes Act, 2004 (Act No
37 of 2004).
- The Minister of Education
a) Report and Financial Statements of the Education Labour Relations
Council (ELRC) for 2005-2006, including the Report of the Auditor-
General on the Financial Statements for 2005-2006 [RP 169-2006].
- The Minister of Science and Technology
a) Report and Financial Statements of the Council for Scientific and
Industrial Research (CSIR) for 2005-2006, including the Report of
the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2005-2006 [RP
120-2006].
National Council of Provinces
- The Chairperson
a) Request from the Minister of Foreign Affairs for Parliament, in
terms of section 16(7) of the Public Service Act, No 103 of 1994 as
amended, to consider the extension of service by five years of Mr A
S Minty, Deputy Director-General in the Department of Foreign
Affairs.
Referred to the Select Committee on Local Government and
Administration for consideration and report, the committee to
report by 16 October 2006.
MONDAY, 18 SEPTEMBER 2006
TABLINGS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
-
The Minister of Communications
(a) Report and Financial Statements of the Independent Communications Authority of South Africa for 2005-2006, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2005-2006 [RP 133-2006].
-
The Minister of Trade and Industry
a) Report and Financial Statements of the National Gambling Board for 2005-2006, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2005-2006 [RP 119-2006].
b) Report and Financial Statements of Khula Enterprise Finance Limited for 2005-2006, including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements for 2005-2006
c) Report and Financial Statements of the International Trade Administration Commission of South Africa for 2005-2006, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2005-2006 [RP 95-2006].
d) Report and Financial Statements of the South African Bureau of Standards for 2005-2006, including the Report of the Auditor- General on the Financial Statements for 2005-2006 [RP 46-2006]. TUESDAY, 19 SEPTEMBER 2006
TABLINGS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
-
The Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development
a) Report and Financial Statements of the National Prosecuting Authority for 2005-2006, including the Report of the Auditor- General on the Financial Statements for 2005-2006 [RP 125-2006].
b) Draft Regulations regarding the Promotion of Access to Information, made in terms of section 92 of the Promotion of Access to Information Act, 2000 (Act No 2 of 2000).
-
The Minister of Trade and Industry
a) Report and Financial Statements of the Industrial Development Corporation of South Africa Limited (IDC) for 2005-2006, including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements for 2005-2006.
b) Report and Financial Statements of the Estate Agency Affairs Board for 2005-2006, including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements for 2005-2006.