WEDNESDAY, 20 SEPTEMBER 2006

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                PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

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The House met at 15:01.

The Deputy Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL REPLY

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT

Representation at HIV/Aids conferences, and restructuring of SA National Aids Council

1. Dr R Rabinowitz (IFP) asked the Deputy President:

   (1) Whether, in light of her appointment to head the inter- ministerial committee on HIV/Aids, she will represent South Africa at international HIV/Aids conferences and events; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details;

 (2)    whether she will restructure the SA National Aids Council to
      make it more independent, transparent and effective; if not, why
      not; if so, (a) when and (b) how?                   1574E

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Deputy Speaker, the answer to the question is that the hon member must understand that the presentation of the country in international HIV and Aids conferences is determined by the nature of the meetings. It is not automatic that all of the meetings would require of the Deputy President to attend them. I suspect that most of them require the department or the Minister to attend.

Meetings that are called under the auspices of the United Nations, and which involve the General Assembly, may be attended by the heads of state or their representatives. The Minister of Health has, and will continue to represent our country because Sanac is not a parallel structure to the department.

The answer to the question on the restructuring of Sanac is as follows. The restructuring of Sanac was indeed decided by the partners in Sanac and, because government is a partner there, we also support this process. The sectors that are represented in it have submitted their inputs on how it should be restructured, but in particular, how it could be strengthened and how it could play its role once restructured, to take full advantage of the partnership that exists there.

We are now working on that process and we have given six weeks within which to convene a Sanac meeting, where we will then be in a position to issue a document that would take into account all of the inputs. We will then share with the nation how we see the future of a restructured Sanac.

Dr R RABINOWITZ: Hon Deputy President, your response indicates that you have taken note of some of the criticisms levelled at Sanac, such as its administrative weakness, its irregular meetings and the fact that the chair and the deputy chair are both government persons. It does not go far enough to reassure us that this latest restructuring and shifting of responsibility to yourself is not merely a window-dressing operation to appease the international community and national bodies who have reacted so vehemently to the hon Minister’s unfortunate performance in Toronto.

Hon Deputy President, 10 years ago an Interparliamentary Aids Committee was established but it never functioned. In the eight years since Sanac was launched …

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Madam Speaker, on a point of order: What is the performance in Toronto – if it can be elaborated on? I don’t know about it.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, Minister, but that is not a point of order. Please continue, hon member.

Dr R RABINOWITZ: Thank you. In the eight years since Sanac was launched, it has been at least a lame duck – at worst and it means a further inflicting government control on the way Aids is funded and managed. Hon Deputy President, in your role as chair, you must have become aware of its lack of clarity and accountability and its poor record in utilising the best that the country has to offer from its NGOs, its academics, businesses and donor organisations. Is it not time, with 900 persons dying per day from Aids, for government to view Aids as a war and handle it with urgency? That war has just opened up a new front with the emergence of the extremely resistant … [Time expired.]

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I think there was no question, Madam Deputy Speaker. The hon member is free to express her opinions.

Dr R RABINOWITZ: On a point of order, Madam Deputy Speaker: I did have time removed through everybody else’s talking.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What is the question? You do have a question? Dr R RABINOWITZ: I will put the question very succinctly: How can the hon Deputy President ensure that the restructuring of Sanac would, in truth, enable civil society, business and the public to make their input to government and to ensure that we now start to treat Aids with effective and urgent methods, showing a complete change in government will towards the epidemic, regarding both Aids and extremely resistant TB?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: We will take full advantage of all the partners within Sanac.

The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Deputy Speaker, Madam Deputy President, first of all, congratulations on your appointment as a chair of Sanac. I am sure it is a welcome and positive development. Could I ask you in your new capacity to please lift the paranoia, which is now surrounding the government’s Aids policy?

Very specifically, I would ask you to comment on the fact that while the President of the Republic was yesterday underlining the importance of the United Nations in world affairs and as it affects South Africa and the developing world, the Minister of Health and her director-general have placed a muzzle on all persons in the department dealing with Mr Steven Lewis, the UN Envoy to Africa on Aids. My question to you, Deputy President is: Will you not take advantage of the fresh wave of optimism which surrounds your appointment as the head of Sanac to now invite Mr Lewis to South Africa, to discuss his criticism of government’s HIV-Aids programme? And if you won’t interact with Mr Lewis, will you tell us why you won’t interact with him?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! I would like, for the benefit of the House, just to read out the question and to say to the Deputy President, if you need to respond to new questions that are added to this question, you have the right to do so. However, you are not compelled by the House to do so. The question is very clear: Firstly, whether in light of your appointment to head the Interministerial Committee on HIV and Aids, you will represent South Africa at the international HIV-Aids conference? Secondly, whether the Deputy President will restructure the SA National Aids Council? Those are the questions. I have just heard a number of new questions asked and you are not compelled to answer them.

The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam, may I address you on the point that you’ve just raised. With great respect to your interpretation, the questions that I have just asked the Deputy President are directly in point to subsection 2 of question 9. Because that question, if you actually read it out in full, says: Whether she will restructure the SA National Aids Council to make it more independent, transparent and effective? My question about Steven Lewis and UN Aids is that it will be a way of demonstrating its independence, its effectiveness and its transparency, as opposed to the muzzle, which the Minister of Health has placed on all matters relating to Steven Lewis.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you for your belated congratulations. I have been a chairperson of Sanac for some time now. On the follow-up questions that you raised, I think I will take the Deputy Speaker’s advice and not answer new questions.

Mrs P DE LILLE: Thank you, hon Deputy President for your response. Regarding the restructuring of Sanac, HIV-Aids has divided our society terribly in South Africa and we need to unite around the pandemic and to fight this scourge. I believe that each and everyone in South Africa has a responsibility to fight this pandemic. What I want to know from you, Deputy President, is whether in the restructuring you will consider also inviting opposition parties to become part of Sanac, so that we can all understand and have information about the plan of government. The plan looks very good on paper: prevention, treatment and care; a holistic approach. In order for HIV-Aids not to become a political football, I would suggest that it would be good for opposition parties to also serve on Sanac, and whether you will consider that?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon member, we are obviously taking inputs from the different stakeholders about how we could make Sanac more effective. Partnerships are very important and we are seeing signs that, actually, indeed, most of the people who are concerned with HIV and Aids, and particularly people who are living with Aids, want us to strengthen the partnership.

Whether bringing in opposition members makes it more robust, makes it perform much better, I don’t want to answer that. I don’t want it to turn into another Parliament, where we will do the kind of things that we do here. There is no harm in thinking about it and discussing it with the colleagues in Sanac, including the stakeholders, other than the government stakeholders.

Mr L V J NGCULU: Deputy Speaker, the challenges facing South Africa with regard to HIV and Aids are ever complex and dynamic, as we continue to grapple with this pandemic. When pessimists and those focusing on the negatives are faced with this dynamism, they invoke sensation and suspicion. In this regard, Deputy President, do you see your role as replacing the line function of the Minister of Health, as we speak, given the particular function? Secondly, how has your consultation process gone with regard to the process of restructuring Sanac? Have you, in your own experience in Sanac, seen any of the groups excluded in the past and in the present?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I didn’t hear the last part, hon member.

Mr L V J NGCULU: From your own experience in Sanac, have you experienced either in the past or in the present – before you came in and now that you are there – any indication of exclusion of any groups in Sanac?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I think that Sanac, as I have indicated, does not replace the department. It is a support to the department. What we are trying to do is to make sure that all of government works together in order for all of us to be involved in tackling what we all clearly identify as a very big task. We also think that it is important that we support the department so that it would be able to do many other things that it has to do, because HIV and Aids is but one of the challenges that it has to deal with.

The department has a much bigger role, to the extent that we can lend a hand to assist it to tackle this particular issue, which is of great concern to all of us. This is what we are here for. In the same way that you have an interministerial committee that deals with human resources, we have a committee that deals with the 2010 World Cup. This is just one of the big issues. This one affects a lot of people and therefore there is a lot of concern. What we are doing is just to provide the department with some support and we are neither replacing the Minister nor the department.

On the issue concerning what I have experienced with Sanac before and after, I think that is work in progress. We do have challenges and we cannot have everybody who would like to be part of Sanac. Stakeholders are grouped. There are human rights representatives, representatives of business and so on. If we were to bring in everybody, it would be within the structures. There will always be people who are disgruntled.

In the restructuring of Sanac, we will try and see how we can accommodate a larger variety of groups that will be represented. At the same time, it must still be manageable, so that we are able to get work going. We are flexible in ensuring that we enhance inclusivity. Thank you. [Applause.]

Steps to promote a holistic and comprehensive approach in the fight against HIV/Aids

1. Mr A F Madella (ANC) asked the Deputy President:

   In view of the Cabinet statement on 7 September 2006 regarding the Government’s commitment to addressing the HIV/Aids pandemic, what steps will (a) the Government take in advocating that good nutrition, treatment, care and healthy and responsible lifestyles are the key elements of a holistic and comprehensive approach in the fight against HIV/Aids and (b) she as Chairperson of the SA National Aids Council take to strengthen the council in the partnership against the pandemic?

           N1575E
   

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Deputy Speaker, the answer to this question is that the government’s HIV and Aids programme to address the challenges caused by HIV and Aids is one of the most comprehensive globally. It comprises prevention, treatment, care and support of those who are infected and affected, as well as action to protect their rights. Whilst we emphasise that all elements of our comprehensive programme are important, prevention must remain one of the cornerstones of our national effort to overcome the disease, because if we do not reduce the rate of infection our gains will be reversed.

A healthy and responsible lifestyle contributes to the efficacy of all aspects of the programme. Good nutrition plays a major role throughout the programme, and we need to communicate all these elements of our comprehensive programme.

We will continue to intensify our massive campaign through the media, written material - including releasing the implementation of progress reports and social mobilisation to make sure that our communities take action and join hands with government to respond to the challenges that we face.

The SA National Aids Council, Sanac, is indeed the embodiment of the national partnership against HIV and Aids. It is through partnerships with all the sectors of civil society that government can realise the goals of the comprehensive programme against HIV and Aids. In line with our operational plan for comprehensive HIV and Aids care, management and treatment of our citizens, we will continue to ensure full participation of individuals infected and affected by HIV and Aids in the implementation of all aspects of this plan.

I need to emphasise that we are very much interested in ensuring that we optimise this institution’s performance. To the extent that there are challenges in implementing some of the decisions that we have made, the restructuring is about closing those gaps. So we are not trying to hide anything, or trying to take short cuts. Indeed, we would want to use everybody who is willing to help to close the gaps and to optimise on the implementation of what is, as we know, a very good plan.

Mr A F MADELLA: Thank you, Comrade Madam President for your informative and educative response. The comprehensive plan for the management, care and treatment of HIV and Aids has, at its core, prevention, the promotion of good nutrition and healthy lifestyles, and treatment - which includes providing ARVs for those patients who have a CD4 count of 200 and lower.

Medical professionals across the globe agree with the fact that good nutrition and healthy lifestyles are fundamental to all medical treatment, and more so for HIV/Aids. Notwithstanding this fact, government’s comprehensive plan has been singled out for severe and, I would want to say, unfair criticism for highlighting this global fact.

This is the question to you, Comrade President: Is there a contradiction between good nutrition and treatment in respect of HIV and Aids and, if not, how will government proceed in its communication strategy to eliminate it? Thank you very much.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I think all of us, in government and outside government, need to continually correct any impression that government is pitting one intervention against the other. We want to emphasise that nutrition, treatment, a healthy lifestyle, care and prevention are all essential elements of this plan, and, to the extent that it is sometimes misinterpreted, we need to take responsibility - whoever we are - to correct this.

We have also made sure that GCIS, in its own work, tries even harder to communicate better and systematically on this issue. Our provinces are doing that and, of course, our communication department in the Department of Health is also doing that. So there is a government-wide initiative to improve and enhance our communication, and I want to state categorically that all elements are important.

Mrs C DUDLEY: Hon Deputy President, for some time now government has been speaking about its comprehensive plan. It is clear that this comprehensive plan is not perceived to be making any considerable impact on the crisis that we face at the moment with what is said to be 900 people dying a day in South Africa and 1 000 new infections a day. Is the hon Deputy President satisfied that this comprehensive plan is, in fact, going to impact this situation in the way we want it to? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, I think that the basic elements of the comprehensive plan are still relevant, but we want to upscale the implementation. Right at the beginning we did highlight the challenge of skills and the challenge of infrastructure. We continue to face these problems, and part of our challenge in enhancing implementation is about ensuring that we continue to enhance our infrastructure.

The department has just adopted a very aggressive human resource plan, again, in order for us to address the challenges that you are highlighting. Even at the level of Public Works, we are looking at home-based care as one of the aspects of the Expanded Public Works Programme, so that we can increase the number of people we have on the ground who can assist us in primary health care, in education and in looking after the people who are sick.

I think it is important that we do not create an impression that there are people who care much more for our people. This is a challenge that we share

• all of us - and we must actually emphasise working together and making sure that all of us can make a difference.

Mr G R MORGAN: Madam Deputy Speaker, Madam Deputy President, with regards to the SA National Aids Council, you indeed have a very difficult task in attempting to make this body effective, and indeed you have been the chairperson for some time already. Sanac has, in the past, not spent its budget, it has had offices that remained unoccupied, meetings have been sporadic, and it has been alleged by some representatives that the Minister of Health has obstructed and opposed certain issues being placed on the agenda.

When briefing the media on 7 September about the new HIV/Aids initiatives, GCIS head, Themba Maseko, said that Sanac could play a much more forthright role in making sure we achieve a greater level of consensus. I’d like to know, Madam Deputy President, on what issues has consensus not been reached in your opinion, and who determines when consensus is achieved? Will government strong-arm sector representatives into agreeing with it, or will genuine dialogue be promoted?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: You know, I’m actually exhausted by this politicking. I think we have made the point about the importance of this. These nitpicking questions that are trying to pit one against the other are actually not helping. They are absolutely not helping, and, frankly, I don’t think there are answers to those questions. [Applause.]

Rev K R J MESHOE: Deputy Speaker, Deputy President, while the ACDP supports efforts by Cabinet to improve communication regarding government’s policy and programme on HIV/Aids, and while we support the Deputy President’s mandate to take concrete steps to strengthen the SA National Aids Council, we nevertheless do not believe that that addresses the real problem. The problem is the perception that government is unwilling to provide ARVs to all those who are HIV-positive, as government is promoting good nutrition as an alternative.

Nobody denies that good nutrition is important in the treatment of illnesses, including Aids. What is unacceptable is the promotion of garlic, lemon and beetroot sometimes to the exclusion of the provision of treatment for Aids sufferers. When does the Deputy President think that government will be ready to tell the country when provision will be made of ARVs to all those who desperately need them? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Obviously, you have indicated yourself that you are talking about perceptions. Our responsibility is to continue to correct those perceptions, because at all the sites that are accredited people are able to access ARVs when they need them. So, to the extent that we cannot always serve everybody at the level at which they need us to serve them, we will continue to have to face that criticism because, like any other country, we are not always able to satisfy everybody and to provide all the services that the people want. But we are committed to continually improving the services.

And, again, it is a perception that we are not giving ARVs to people when they need them. To the extent that we can, and with the support that we can give them, we definitely do that at our sites. You’ll have to give me a concrete example of a person who went to a site who was deserving but was turned away for no credible reason. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, before we move to the next question, whilst we welcome our gallery visitors, it is important for us to make them aware that they do not have to participate in the proceedings of the House. So, clapping and all that is not allowed.

  Impact of influx of Zimbabwean citizens on crime and the economy

1. Dr P J Rabie (DA) asked the Deputy President:

   Whether the inflow of an estimated 2, 7 million Zimbabwean citizens into South Africa is a cause for concern; if not, why not; if so, what impact does this influx have on crime in particular and the economy in general? N1358E

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Deputy Speaker, firstly, I would like to request the hon member to provide us with the source of the statistics to determine the accuracy or validity of the inference that there are 2,7 million Zimbabweans in South Africa.

Secondly, the member should have clarified whether this question relates to legal or illegal immigrants. This is because the number of illegal immigrants in the country cannot be determined with certainty at any given stage for the simple reason that they are illegal, and therefore we do not have their records.

Assuming that the hon member is referring to illegal immigrants, we would like to acknowledge that there is indeed a great number of Zimbabweans in the country, which is confirmed by the fact that between January 2006 and 31 August 2006 we deported 81 655 people. As the member would surely understand, this number is not a reflection of the illegal Zimbabweans in the country, but refers only to those deported.

In addition to the above, there is no evidence that clearly confirms the perception that they are responsible for crime in the country. This does not, of course, exclude those isolated cases in which Zimbabwean nationals committed acts of crime. With regard to their involvement in the economy, the member would understand that international migrants play a vital role in the economy, especially in the labour market. I would also ask the hon member to make sure that we do not create the impression that all Zimbabweans are criminals, because – as you know – this could create problems for those people who may be unfairly attacked and victimised by members of society.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Deputy President, Mr Rabie is not here, but the hon Labuschagne is standing in for him.

Mr L B LABUSCHAGNE: Deputy President, I accept what you have stated, that there is a great number of illegal Zimbabweans – with some 80 000 being deported. Obviously, those are the ones that are caught. There is no doubt that because of the situation in Zimbabwe, with the curtailment of demonstrations, the destruction of shacks, rampant inflation increasing in thousands of percentages per month, we do have, if not millions, at least, obviously, 800 000 or more citizens in South Africa, and this has an impact on jobs, services, and also crime. It is getting worse, and it will increase and the numbers will increase as the situation in Zimbabwe is exacerbated.

The question is: What steps is the South African government taking to address the human rights crisis in Zimbabwe as it impacts negatively on South Africa? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: We are members of SADC, we are members of the United Nations, and we will work within those institutions to address these challenges.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The next follow-up question is from the hon C T Molefe.

Mr D J SITHOLE: Madam Deputy Speaker, Deputy President, would you agree with me that this question is actually motivated by the arrogance and racism perpetrated by the DA, given that when Roy Bennett came to this country they were the first to jump. When African Zimbabweans are the people they are speaking about here, they tell us that they perpetrate crime, but when white Zimbabweans are affected, they are the first to say to us, “This should be handled in a particular way”?

As the head of Asgisa, you have identified that we have shortages of certain skills that we need for our economy. It’s wrong for us to continually create conditions that attract people that must come to the country so that they can contribute to the growth of our economy. Is it wrong for us to do that? Would the Deputy President agree with me that, in fact, this question is motivated by one simple reason: racism? Yesterday we were told that all those people who died during the struggle died for nothing, because we don’t know democracy. [Time expired.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I just want to make an appeal to the parties, if they change the names of people, to notify us, because the last time I met Mr Job Sithole - at a quarter to two this afternoon - he was still Mr Sithole. [Laughter.] I know that it is easy today to get a name change at Home Affairs, but I should have been notified. [Laughter.] Please, Mr Sithole, take your seat.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon member, whoever you are, I would like to highlight the fact that Zimbabweans actually play a very important role in our economy, especially in the areas in which we have shortages of skills. I particularly want to single out the financial sector, where the country has benefited from a lot of Zimbabweans who have high-level financial skills.

If I am not mistaken, most of the black actuaries that we have in this country are actually Zimbabwean. There are also large numbers in the health sector in which, again, we have experienced shortages, as we have in tourism. I think we just need to take a balanced approach to these issues. I agree with you, hon member, that we must encourage the members on the other side to see the cloud’s silver lining.

Mr H B CUPIDO: Deputy Speaker, hon Deputy President, the co-ordinator of the Roll Back Xenophobia Campaign has recently been quoted as saying that information fed from the media to the police plays a significant role in the creation of stereotypes of foreigners.

We would like to know whether, in an attempt to distinguish between unfair stereotyping of foreigners and factual accounts of the role played by foreigners in the escalating rate of crime in the country, it would be logistically possible for government to consider releasing separate crime statistics of crimes committed by foreigners.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I think that would be very dangerous, hon member. I will have to be guided by human rights lawyers, experts on issues that affect immigrants, because we are also signatories to many international conventions that oblige us to treat people that come to our country with respect as well as to protect them. I would need to be guided about the correctness of that approach. My gut feeling tells me that we may just be exposing people to unfair treatment by members of the public.

      Outcomes of izimbizo held in Mpumalanga and Northern Cape

1. Ms B M Ntuli (ANC) asked the Deputy President:

   (a) What were the outcomes of the izimbizo held recently by her in Mpumalanga and the Northern Cape and (b) how will the Government respond to the challenges raised at these meetings?

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The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: This question is about the outcomes of the imbizo held recently in the Northern Cape. Hon member, I assume that you meant the Northern Cape and I think that has now also been corrected in the Question Paper.

In August, as per Cabinet decision, we began with a new style of izimbizo, which integrates parts of both the municipal and the community involvement. The key elements of this programme include meeting the leadership of the district councils; meeting the stakeholders; door-to-door visits as well as unveiling or assessing public-private partnership projects; sector izimbizo; and community izimbizo.

The recent two izimbizo that the hon member refers to included a working meeting with the district municipality, municipal leadership and the presidential delegation as part of Project Consolidate’s hands-on intervention programme designed to assist struggling municipalities. Unlike the previous izimbizo, this approach enabled council leadership meetings to report on the progress and the challenges faced by municipalities. The meeting also presented plans on how some of these challenges will be met.

The biggest and common challenge for most municipalities is that of strengthening and accelerating local economic development. This was the case at Ehlanzeni district in Mpumalanga, where the tourism sector also caused a great concern because of the potential it has, according to the mayor’s report.

In the Northern Cape, the challenge in the Emthanjeni informal settlement is the acquisition of land. The informal settlement is on the Transnet land and the finalisation of the negotiations is delaying the housing project. We hope that, with the intervention of the national department, this matter will soon be resolved.

Thus far, the two-day izimbizo integrating all aspects of the programme as proposed by the Cabinet provide a holistic assessment of the status of the districts from the perspective of the local government leadership, business leaders as well as the community. This approach seems to provide for practical analysis of municipal challenges, which include recommendations on how to meet these challenges as well as the assistance or support necessary for the district.

After izimbizo in Mpumalanga and the Northern Cape, the Department of Provincial and Local Government analysed the report and they have already made numerous recommendations. Here are some of those recommendations: The provinces, together with the national and provincial sector departments must invest their energies in the izimbizo preparatory process that deals with the content, follow-ups and progress for improved, meaningful and solution-oriented izimbizo.

Provinces must consider locating in the office of the Premier some of their resourceful senior officials, who will be entrusted with the specific responsibility of co-ordinating this initiative as well as facilitating the participation of different constituencies during the imbizo. These will assist in ensuring that there is follow-through, communication and effective facilitation regarding all izimbizo processes and that we are able to be consistent throughout. Thank you.

Mrs B M NTULI: Deputy Speaker, Deputy President, government izimbizo programmes provide an opportunity for government to communicate its programme of action and progress made up until then. They also promote participation of the public in the programmes to improve their lives, highlight their concerns and grievances, and promote participatory democracy. Now, my question to you Deputy President is: How do these visits facilitate the unbundling of bureaucracy?

Emuva kokuthi senihlangene, nahlala phansi, nabonisana nesifundazwe kanye nomasipala maqondana nendlela ende eya ekuphunyelelisweni kwalezi zinto ezifanele zenziwe, uhulumeni wenzani ngalokho? Okwesibili, ikakhulukazi eMpumalanga, yini engalindelwa yimiphakathi kulezi zimbizo, okuyizinto ezizokwenza impilo ibe ngcono nokuthola izinsiza eziyifaneleyo? Ngiyabonga. IPHINI LIKAMONGAMELI: Ngiyabonga kakhulu kwilungu elihloniphekile, uNkk Ntuli. Esikhathini esiningi uma ngabe sihambela izifundazwe into esiyiqaphela kakhulu ukuthi izinto eziningi ezingahambi kahle zidalwa ukungabi khona kwamakhono enele kulezo zifundazwe.

Esikhathini esiningi siye siyibone indlela esingaqinisa ngayo lezi zifundazwe. EMpumalanga sayibona leyo nto yokuthi kudingeka sithumele abantu abafana nonjiniyela njalo njalo, abazokwazi ukuthi baqinise umsebenzi wezifundazwe. Kwesinye isikhathi sithola ukuthi zikhona izinto ezihambisana nokulandela imigomo, okuyizinto okufanele ngabe ziyalandelwa ukuze zisuse laba bantu abenza ukuthi umsebenzi ungahambi kahle.

Ukuba khona kwethu-ke kulezo zindawo kwenza sime ndawonye nezimeya noNdunankulu maqondana nokuthi lezi zinto kufanele zenziwe bese zifika esiphethweni. Amacala kufuneka athethwe aqedwe, angalokhu eqhubeka abantu behola kodwa bengasebenzi. Iyona-ke le into esisebenzisana ngayo.

Enye into esiyenzayo ukuthi uma ngabe sekubukwa uhlelo lokusebenza lwalowo masipala oluqondene nonyaka olandelayo, siyafuna ukuthi lezo zinto ebesizibone ziyizinkinga kuthi onyakeni olandelayo kube nendlela yokuzisombulula. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[Since you had met with provinces and municipalities and exchanged views regarding the streamlining of bureaucracy that delays service delivery, is government doing anything about it? Secondly, what is it that communities should expect from these izimbizo, particularly in Mpumalanga? Are they things that can make their lives better and also get them resources? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you very much hon member Mrs Ntuli. What we often discover when we visit provinces, is the shortage of skills in those provinces.

In most cases we do have a plan of capacitating these provinces. We have realised that we need to deploy engineers to Mpumalanga, who will be able to give capacity to the provinces. In some other instances you find that there are problems of not adhering to policies that should be followed in order to deal with those people who stall service delivery. Our presence there affords us an opportunity to agree with Premiers and mayors that these programmes should be implemented and finalised. Disciplinary cases should be heard and finalised so that we do not have people who are getting paid while they are not working. That is the main thing we are working on.

When we consider the programme of action of a particular municipality for the following year, we do look at strategies for solving the problems we have identified.] Mr W P DOMAN: Deputy Speaker, hon Deputy President, you’ve referred to “follow-through” and, of course, at these izimbizo people’s expectations are raised. On 30 July, this year, on SABC 2, the programme Fokus showed that despite an imbizo last year where the President spoke in Victoria West in the Northern Cape, nothing happened in more than a year’s time.

I also saw the situation with my own eyes when I visited that area in July. The road from the township to town, where the President was, is still half complete and there is no improvement in their toilets on their sportsfield. How can you and the government ensure that there is follow-through? During your imbizo in Bushbuckridge, you highlighted the possibilities in the agricultural sector. Is the government putting plans together to assist these people to realise their dreams?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: One of the approaches that we are exploring now, because of some of these embarrassing gaps that we see, is to ensure that, between ourselves and the Department of Provincial and Local Government, we’ve follow-up teams, so that from where we sit in the Presidency and from where they sit, we are actually looking at the same things. I will not try to pretend that we do not have these gaps where some of the follow-ups do not happen. We, therefore, want to have a dedicated team of people whose special assignment will be to follow up and provide us with a grid so that we can see where, on all those challenges that we have identified, we can make a difference.

There are areas where we might not be able to respond immediately, maybe because such needs have not been put on the budget. But, at least, to the extent where we can make immediate difference, we are able to do that, and where we are going to take time, we communicate to the people so that they know what they are up against. I would just like to give this system some time and hope that it will address some of those challenges. I will follow up on that particular case that you have raised.

Regarding Bushbuckridge, where – many of the people from that area will know – there is a lot of potential for agriculture but irrigation is a problem, we have asked the Department of Agriculture together with the Department of Trade and Industry to look into it, so that we can look at how to enhance the capacity for agriculture and at the same time address issues of market access, as part of local economic development. When there is a potential for people to do better in agriculture, they should also be able to have market access. The teams of the two departments, if I am not mistaken, are already working together in following up on issues. [Interjections.]

Mr D A A OLIFANT: Madam Deputy Speaker, I just want to raise a point of order: The member who spoke before the Deputy President misled this House regarding Victoria West. I was born there and my mother lives there. There is great improvement in that area. My mother has a flush toilet and there is no such thing as “Nothing has happened since the President was last there in that area.”

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Hon member, please take your seat. That is not a point of order. [Applause.]

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: That’s what is called “setting the record straight”. [Laughter.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Hon members, I don’t recognise that as a point of order. Therefore both you and the Chief Whip of the Majority Party are out of order. Please, take your seats. [Interjections.]

Mr H B CUPIDO: Hon Deputy Speaker and hon Deputy President, the ACDP would like to know whether the government has put in place any plans to address the high level of dependency on social grants among inhabitants of the Northern Cape …

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, may I please interrupt you a bit? I just heard something like “I am applying double standards.” Did anyone say that? Does anyone want to own up? Please take a microphone and address me.

Mr G R MORGAN: Yes, Madam Deputy Speaker? [Interjections.] The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, say you didn’t hear it but this member has now said, yes, he has done so?

Mr G R MORGAN: Madam Deputy Speaker, I retract my remarks and I apologise.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: You apologise. Thanks. Mr Cupido, please continue and start from the beginning because I don’t think I can still remember what you were saying earlier on.

Mr H B CUPIDO: Hon Deputy Speaker and hon Deputy President, the ACDP would like to know whether the government has put in place any plans to address the high level of dependency on social grants among inhabitants in the Northern Cape as was identified by the hon Deputy President during her imbizo to the Northern Cape in August this year? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I wouldn’t say that we have put in place concrete mechanisms to do that, but it is something that we have asked the Department of Social Development to look into because clearly, it is not sustainable. The issue of training, amongst others, is one of the ways in which you capacitate people so that they could do something for themselves. I would say that the Northern Cape would probably be an important area to intervene in that fashion because there you find this degree of dependency quite pronounced. Mr M W SIBUYANA: Deputy Speaker, Deputy President, following on from imbizo at Thulamahashe, where many problems at Okkerneutboom were actually articulated by a certain lady regarding service delivery – which has come to a standstill because an independent candidate won in that ward and there are court actions time and again, and services have come to a standstill - is the Deputy President going to make a follow-up or send a team to find exactly what is happening in order for people to get their services delivered? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: If my memory serves me right, in that particular ward in Thulamahashe we actually asked the district to intervene in order to make sure that whatever squabble may be going on within the ward does not affect the community negatively. There was commitment in the presence of the Premier, that they will pay attention to. I must be honest and acknowledge that I haven’t gone back to Thulamahashe since then. I will check and I will write a letter to you hon member to let you know. Are you from there?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Deputy President will write a letter, hon member. That concludes questions to the Deputy President. I have received a number of questions about the “freezing House.” I have notified the relevant people to give us a little bit of “heat” because a number of people, including myself, are really complaining.

Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Deputy Speaker, the DA is prepared to provide all the “heat” you require. [Laughter.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you very much, hon member, for assisting the House. We are looking forward to the “heat.”

                   SOCIAL SERVICES AND GOVERNANCE

                              Cluster 2

MINISTERS:

  Number of experts deployed to assist municipalities under Project
                             Consolidate

1. Mr W P Doman (DA) asked the Minister for Provincial and Local Government:

   (a) How many experts have been deployed to assist municipalities under Project Consolidate, (b) how many municipalities received such assistance up to 31 August 2006 and (c) what is the maximum number of experts deployed per municipality? N1553E

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Madam Deputy Speaker. The answer to Question 238 is as follows: A total of 218 experts have been deployed – 67 are from the private sector, 36 from the development agencies, 18 from state-owned enterprises and 97 from the national sector departments. Linked to this is the need to strengthen the programme management capacity of certain provincial departments of local government. To this end, a total of 7 experts have been deployed directly to assist the Free State and Limpopo provinces.

The answer to the second part of the question is that the deployment within the municipalities targeted a total of 80 Project Consolidate local municipalities and five metropolitan municipalities. These received expert assistance in areas that include financial management, civil engineering and project management support.

The answer to the third part of the question is that the deployment of experts is needs-driven. The average of experts deployed stands at approximately three per municipality.

Mr W P DOMAN: Deputy Speaker, hon Deputy Minister, it was envisaged that Project Consolidate would expire in three months’ time, and you have just given us figures that 80 local municipalities and 5 metropolitans have been reached, out of the 136 that were targeted originally. So, there are a number that haven’t been reached. I am also worried that these experts only make very short-term interventions. So, I want to ask you: What tangible results can we see from Project Consolidate so that we can get the people to receive the necessary services that they are entitled to? The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Madam Deputy Speaker, as I had said earlier on - and this has been said on a number of occasions in this House - municipalities have been identified. Those that have been identified through Project Consolidate went into those municipalities. So, we are certain that the others that have been left out are at least in a position to manage their own businesses.

With regard to the expiry of Project Consolidate in three months’ time, we must just have patience. We have started a pilot project called Project Consolidate and I think we need to be given the space for us to see and evaluate whether it has been a success or not.

            Training of hospital chief executive officers

1. Ms R Mashigo (ANC) asked the Minister of Health:

   In light of the delegation of authority to hospital chief executive officers (CEOs) for the purposes of accountability and effective and efficient service delivery, (a) how many hospital CEOs have undergone the various training programmes and (b) what impact has the training had thus far? N1444E

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Deputy Speaker, the answer to the first part of the question is that the CEOs of hospitals do indeed undergo different training in different provinces. Such training can both be individually initiated and provincially sponsored. The delegation of authority to these CEOs is currently under way, as dictated by the President in his state of the nation address this year.

I must hasten to say that most provinces had actually delegated authority to some of the CEOs but they withdrew that because these CEOs, in our assessment, were not well trained. All CEOs will be trained in accordance with the requirements of their delegated authority. Provinces have mentioned that all their CEOs have undergone some training or other.

Although there has not yet been a formal impact assessment in provinces, an indication is that there are improvements in matters such as financial management in some. Thank you very much.

Ms R J MASHIGO: Madam Deputy Speaker, I thank the Minister for her answer. Community awareness about the positive developments in this project is very vital, and we think that it should be seen and understood as a process by our communities. Can the Minister kindly inform us how far this awareness of the community has gone?

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Deputy Speaker, I think the onus lies on all of us, especially members of the Portfolio Committee on Health, because they are briefed on these matters on a regular basis. Also, as we meet as the National Health Council and HODs, ie heads of departments from the different provinces, we deliberate on these matters.

Therefore, it is important that all of us take ownership of this process and indeed become part of community awareness activities as to what we are doing. I am sure if the hon member goes to some of the speeches that I have made, the hon member would also understand that I myself have spoken about the importance of community awareness. Thank you.

Mr G R MORGAN: Madam Deputy Speaker, Madam Minister, the DA thanks you for implementing the policy of delegating authority to hospital CEOs. It is a DA policy after all. We support this initiative, and we hope that even far greater responsibilities will be delegated to individual hospitals.

I am interested to know, Madam Minister, whether all CEOs have signed performance agreements and will be accountable for achieving various measurable targets. If not, why not? If so, are you prepared to dismiss failing hospital CEOs? I thank you.

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Deputy Speaker, I am not sure whether this is the policy of the DA, I think this is the policy of government. I am not sure why the hon member takes this policy and apportions it to the DA.

This is the policy of government. As the member knows, because he was part of the portfolio committee, everybody does sign performance agreements. So I don’t understand the relevance of the question. Thank you.

 Initiatives to address shortage of social workers and improve their
                      conditions of employment

1. Ms I W Direko (ANC) asked the Minister of Social Development:

   Whether his department has taken any initiatives to address the shortage of social workers, with special reference to improving conditions of employment for social workers and other social development professionals; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? N1447E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Deputy Speaker, the answer to the question is as follows: Yes, the department has taken initiatives to address the shortage of social workers. With reference to improving the conditions of employment for social workers, the department has drafted a recruitment and retention strategy for social workers. As the first phase of the strategy, the salaries of social workers were reviewed and regraded. Other categories will be regraded in a phased approach.

The national Department of Social Development has appointed a service provider to conduct a rapid appraisal on the physical working conditions of social workers. The findings will assist the department to develop appropriate intervention strategies to address the physical working conditions of social workers. Other working conditions of social workers will be addressed in phases as planned in the recruitment and retention strategy.

The department also engaged various stakeholders to establish a platform to discuss social work as a scarce skill. This culminated in the social work indaba that was opened by me earlier this year. From this indaba, a short, medium and long-term plan was developed to address the problem.

The curriculum for development of other categories of professionals has been finalised. This will provide career-pathing when implemented. The finalisation of the appointment of the professional boards for certain categories will also assist in facilitating the career-pathing process indicated above.

Ms I W DIREKO: Thank you, Deputy Minister, for your encouraging report to this House. As social workers play a critical role in delivering service where it is most needed, I would further like to know: Has the appointment of community development workers alleviated the shortage of personnel in the social development field? The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Madam Deputy Speaker, community development workers are workers who assist generally with getting access to government services in general. So, in a general sense, the community development workers do assist in alleviating the plight of workers. But there are other categories of workers – auxiliary social workers, home- based care workers, child and youth care workers – all of whom are assisting social workers. At the moment, the department is in the process of establishing what it is that social workers should do from the specialised point of view and how they can be relieved from doing various other work which can be done by these other auxiliary social workers and others. Thank you, Deputy Speaker.

Mr M WATERS: Deputy Speaker, while the DA recognises progress made with the improving salaries of social workers who are working for the department, the costing of the Children’s Act clearly indicates that if we are to implement this Act properly, by the year 2010 we will need 66 329 social workers and 48 660 auxiliary social workers. We currently have 5 063 social workers working in South Africa, in the departments and NGOs. Since there are only a maximum of 3 000 first year social worker positions available at South Africa’s universities, what steps has the department taken to engage universities to increase the number of positions available for social workers?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Madam Deputy Speaker, I am not sure whether that is the same question or a follow-up to the same question. But the department is in the process of discussing with the Department of Education various aspects with regard to the curriculum and other issues concerning funding, subsidies, formulas and so on, to improve the recruitment strategy and the amount of social workers that are being produced. In the near future there is going to be a seminar between all training institutions and the department to discuss the problems with regard to the rapid training of social workers. I hope that satisfies the hon member.

Ms S RAJBALLY: Deputy Speaker, Deputy Minister, we have a lot of frail care people living at home. I want to know whether the department has employed any voluntary social workers through some incentives in order to take care of these frail people at home?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Madam Deputy Speaker, as I have indicated before, the department employs a number of home-based care workers and auxiliary social workers to assist so that all of these matters can be taken care of. I think that should answer the question of the hon member.

        Minimum standard for teachers to be allowed to teach

1. Mr G G Boinamo (DA) asked the Minister of Education:

   (1) Whether, with reference to her reply to Question 693 on 11 August 2006, in which she revealed that a substantial number of public school teachers were underqualified, her department has a minimum qualification for teachers to be allowed to teach; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details;

   (2) whether her department will consider setting a minimum standard for teachers to be allowed to teach should it introduce licences for school teachers; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? N1544E

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Deputy Speaker, the use of the word “substantial” in the question the hon member posed to me is an exaggeration chosen by the hon member. In my answer to Question 693, I did not use the word “substantial”.

In July 2005, in terms of records we have - as I indicated in my response to that question - there were 6 040 unqualified teachers out of 360 000 teachers in service in South Africa. It is strange mathematics that regards 6 000 out of 360 000 as substantial. I should add that, in exceptional cases, where a post cannot be filled by a qualified teacher - and these are exceptional cases – then an unqualified teacher may be appointed, but only as a temporary teacher, to ensure that no child is without a teacher.

Teachers in our system can only work on a permanent basis in the public schools, if they are registered with the SA Council for Educators and they require a professional qualification of, at least, the level of M +3.

In 2000, we set, in response to part two of the question, a norm standard for educators, which was published in terms of the National Education Policy Act. That norm standard stated that teachers should have four years of initial teacher education, as a minimum requirement for qualified teacher status and therefore, for registration. Only half of our current pool of teachers employed have four years of initial training. And, I would want to indicate to members that this is the standard we recommend.

However, we do have thousands of teachers who have a three-year degree and not the four-year B Ed degree, which is the recommended qualification in terms of the norms and standards published in the year 2000. I should also indicate that all current graduates emerging from our faculties of education in our universities and universities of technology all emerge with a formal four-year qualification. [Time expired.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Mr Boinamo is not in the House; therefore, Mr Ellis is standing in for him.

Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Deputy Speaker, I would like to say to the hon Minister that the response she gave to the question, certainly, makes me change my mind as to the type of question I wanted to put across to her, because I would say that 6 040 underqualified or unqualified teachers is too many and certainly even one underqualified teacher is too many. But I want to point out to the hon Minister that in December 2004, according to the statistics she gave me, there were 4 741 educators who were underqualified and this number had grown, just six or seven months later, to 6 040.

The trend, regrettably, Madam Minister, is on the way up. And, I think, in terms of the response we received from you today, one has to ask the question: What is your department doing to prevent that number of underqualified teachers now escalating even further? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Deputy Speaker, I want to say thank you to the hon member for the follow-up question. Clearly, no system would want to have teachers who are not qualified, but it is important that we recognise the constraints that we work under in many parts of our country, particularly where you might have small farm schools and so on, where you cannot always attract qualified teachers.

I should also indicate that hon members should recall that a significant proportion of teachers that we inherited in 1994 were, in fact, underqualified or unqualified. And great inroads have been made by government, with respect to upgrading, to at least the minimum qualification of M +3.

As the hon member is aware, we’ve had the advanced certificate in education offered by several universities as part of this upgrading programme, which is state-sponsored and has, I think, done a great deal of very important work through a number of universities in the country, both contact and distant.

The growth is something that has surprised me as well and we are looking at it. I cannot, in any sense of honesty, say to you that I know the reason why it was like that. My suspicion, and it is indeed a suspicion or speculation - and I would further look into it and the member can then pose a new question that seeks direct information – is that it is related to the growth in Grade R classes in a number of primary schools throughout the country.

As you would know, Grade R was introduced as a new policy area and, really, we had a huge intake from the year 2003 onward. I suspect there was no preparation for qualified persons to teach that particular foundation phase class. And therefore, you had persons employed in communities, who were immediately available to serve that role. We are now trying to make sure that we professionalise that particular offering as part of the formal compulsory offering of education. But, if you pose the question directly, I will investigate the growth.

Mnu A M MPONTSHANE: Phini likaSomlomo, ngithi kumhlonishwa uNgqongqoshe cishe siyavumelana ukuthi imfundo yethu ayikho ezingeni esilifunayo nasezingeni elifunwa uNgqongqoshe. Njengoba sivuma ukuthi umfundisi oqeqeshwe ngokwenele uwukhiye wemfundo esezingeni elincomekayo, kodwa ziningi izinto ezikhinyabeza imfundo njengokungayi ezikoleni kothisha nobuphofu emphakathini.

Namuhla nje, uma sifunda, kuthiwa laphaya eGauteng zikhona izikole ezilenga okhiye ngoba izingane sezisukile ezindaweni zasemakhaya zaya ezikoleni ezisemadolobheni, lezi okwakuthiwa ezabelungu. Akuyi ngokuthi abaqeqeshiwe othisha labo.

Umbuzo-ke mhlonishwa uthi: Uma sikhuluma ngokuqeqesheka kahle kothisha, yini ngempela leyo esisuke sikhuluma ngayo? Ngabe sikhuluma ngesitifiketi na ngoba kuyenzeka ukuthi uthisha onesitifiketi uthi uyamcinga kuleso sitifiketi kodwa ungamtholi, uthole nje iphepha? Ngisho ukuthi …

IPHINI LIKASOMLOMO: Sesiphelile isikhathi. Ngicela uhlale phansi baba ngoba isikhathi sesiphelile. Umbuzo wona usuwubekile. Siyabonga. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Madam Deputy Speaker, I want to say to the hon Minister that, maybe we agree that our education system is not at the level we expect it to be as well as the level wanted by the hon Minister. We agree that the educator who is properly trained is the key to good education, but there are many things that disturb education, like educators who do not go to school and poverty in the community.

Today we read that in Gauteng there are schools that are locked because children leave the rural schools and heard for city schools, which were previously called white schools. It is not dependent on the fact that educators are not trained in those schools.

The question, hon Minister, is: When we talk about proper training of educators, what is it that we really mean? Are we talking about a certificate? Because it happens that when one evaluates an educator with a certificate one finds that this person is unable to deliver. It is merely a paper. I mean …

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Your time has expired. Please sit down, sir, because your time has expired. You have already asked the question. Thank you.]

UMPHATHISWA WEZEMFUNDO: Sekela-Somlomo ndiyathemba ukuba utata uza kuvuma ukuba asoze isikolo sihlale sivuliwe kungekho bantwana bangenayo kuso. Ngoko ke ngumsebenzi wethu nathi ukuba sijonge ukuba bakhona na abantwana abangenayo kweso sikolo. Ukuba abekho, yintoni esiza kuyenza ngezikolo ezinjalo. Asitsho ke ukuba siza kuzivala zonke, kodwa ezinye ziyadityaniswa. Ngoko ke zininzi iindlela esingazisebenzisa ngazo.

Kambe xa sithetha ngomfundisi-ntsapho, sisithi uwazi kakuhle umsebenzi wakhe, wenza umsebenzi omhle, ewe, sithetha ngotitshala onephepha elivela edyunivesiti elibonisa ukuba ubufundele ubutitshala, kodwa loo nto yephepha lakhe sithi siyidibanise nophuhliso ukumncedisa ngokumxhobisa nangakumbi umntu ukuze akwazi kakuhle ukufundisa. Sisaqulunqa umgaqo-nkqubo okanye ipolisi eza kuncedisa ootitshala nokukhulisa ulwazi lwabo lomsebenzi.

Loo polisi iza kuvela kule nyanga sikuyo. Ngoko, asoze sithi umntu xa evela edyunivesiti simyekele nje ukuba azibonele. Nam ndikhe ndaya edyunivesiti ndaba ngutitshala, kodwa azange ndiyekwe nje ndingaqeqeshwa esikolweni ndincediswe ekwenzeni umsebenzi wam. Kufuneka ke siqinisekise nakwabanye abaza kufundisa abantwana bethu ukuba umsebenzi wabo bayawazi ngenene. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)

[The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Deputy Speaker, I hope that the hon member will agree that a school cannot remain open even when there are no learners attending it. It is therefore our responsibility too to see to it that there are learners at the schools. If there are none, what can we do with such schools? We are not saying we are going to close all of them down, but will combine some of them. There are various alternatives we could think of.

When we talk about an educator saying he or she knows his or her work well, yes, we are talking about an educator who has a university certificate that proves that he or she has undergone training as an educator, but we enhance that certificate through further development, assistance and empowerment to ensure that that educator is able to deliver as expected. We are still in the process of formulating a policy that aims to develop and enhance their skills in the kind of work that they do.

It is envisaged that the policy would be adopted during this month. We would, however, like to emphasise that a teacher would never be left alone to find his or her own way. I was also a university graduate and a teacher at some point in my life, but I was not left to fend for myself. It is our responsibility to support the teachers who are going to teach our children to ensure that they are well trained to carry out their task.]

Mr R S NTULI: Deputy Speaker, as one follows the discussion here, one cannot help it that the DA, in particular, has a negative attitude towards the enormous work done by the Department of Education, as the Minister’s earlier response indicated. They seem to conveniently forget the mess that was inherited from the apartheid system, whose demon still haunts the system, especially regarding the poor standard of teacher training. But, what is even more painful is that, by implication, they denigrate the enormous contributions made by these poorly qualified teachers through no choice of their own. Hon Minister, can you briefly sketch, so that we dismiss this myth once and for all, the gigantic and comprehensive steps that the department has taken since 1994 to address this issue of enhancing the skills of inadequately qualified teachers? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I think I must thank the hon member for that question, but also say I thought I had actually answered it by saying that what we have done in the past 12 years is to massively erode the levels of underqualified and unqualified teachers that we had in South Africa. Nevertheless, I think where hon member is correct is in the point he has put forward that you are not born a good teacher. There are some persons without any training whatsoever, who are able to extract the best potential out of children and teach them adequately. We know this from our own history. There were many persons in our classrooms that had not put a foot through a university door and yet produced jewels through their teaching. This is known! So, I think we would acknowledge that.

Nevertheless, given that we have moved from the times of Dewey in the early industrial America to the 21st century, we all acknowledge that we must use institutions of higher learning to ensure that teachers understand both the theory and practice that has emerged from years of research on approaches to teaching, hence the demand that we should actually have trained persons.

But this struggle to ensure that we have teachers who can deliver the goods, does not mean we denigrate, in any way, the contribution that many people made in the past under the most difficult conditions. I would remind the hon members of the situation of female teachers in South Africa when we came into this Parliament in 1994, and the steps taken by Prof Bhengu, the first Minister under democratic government in South Africa, who actually rendered women equal in terms of the benefits that they would enjoy within teaching. There has been a great deal of movement forward, and we cannot deny that progress by our government and the people of South Africa.

Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Deputy Speaker, I think there is time for one more follow-up question. I did push the button to indicate that I would like to ask it.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, the button was not pushed. But there is an opportunity. We have only had three supplementary questions.

Mr M J ELLIS: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Can I just say very briefly to the hon Ntuli, again … [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: To the honourable who?

Mr M J ELLIS: Ntuli.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I thought we are returning to the supplementary question to the Minister! [Interjections.]

Mr M J ELLIS: I am going to address the question. I am certainly going to, but as he attacked the DA I feel I should just respond. I would not abuse my one minute and I would certainly ask the question to the Minister.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Would you please ask a supplementary question to the Minister?

Mr M J ELLIS: Certainly! Absolutely! I just want to say that, obviously, though he is singing for the supper, I think Madam Minister will accept that what we had was a perfectly legitimate question put to her about the state of education in South Africa at the present time. But he tried, quite frankly, to make some mileage out of nothing at all.

I wonder if I could use this occasion to simply say to you, Madam Minister, that, with regard to the whole issue of licences for school teachers, though this is still some way off – I think, but do you anticipate in any way that this would have an effect on the supply of teachers to schools, particularly in terms of underqualified teachers? What do you think the short-term effect would be, at least, on schools if this was introduced?

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I think we should be wary of making too much of the licensing proposal, and I would hope that when I release the teacher development framework later this month, in the next week, that you would read it carefully to see exactly what it is I am proposing.

A large part of the problem that we have, with respect to the inability of some teachers to teach effectively, is that we do not have adequate teacher development in the country. It is not properly accredited; it is not properly quality-assured and this is the kind of teacher development I want to put in place through the framework that we will publish.

The licensing would be part of the accreditation. We would want teachers to go through the SA Certification Council because they, I think, should be the authority that would play a role in this process of licensing of accreditation.

I hope it would be a quality measure which the teachers, those in service, will regard as a positive professional step for themselves. But, I do not think we should make political football out of it, because it then begins to be received as a negative step. I had hoped that all of us would unite behind the enterprise of promoting quality teaching and quality education in our country and see each step that we take as directed toward that.

Essentially, the intention is to build mechanisms that both support teachers and also ensure that they improve in their ability, just as we would with surgeons have a means of saying, “Indeed, you have done that upgrading; you can operate on hearts or you are a good plastic surgeon.” That is the quality of profession we wish to develop.

              Water supply needs in Bushbuckridge area

1. Mr M W Sibuyana (IFP) asked the Minister of Water Affairs and Forestry:

   (1) Whether, in light of the fact that the Bushbuckridge area has been constantly overlooked as a result of boundary issues by the Portfolio Committee on Water Affairs and Forestry during their oversight visits to Limpopo and Mpumalanga, she will send a special committee to assess the water needs and to look into the many complaints by the residents of that area; if not, why not; if so, when;

   (2) whether her department will send a team to establish the reasons for water supply disruptions at Okkernootboom Trust Farm in Bushbuckridge and to find solutions for such disruptions; if not, why not; if so, when? N1530E

UNGQONGQOSHE WEZAMANZI NAMHLATHI: Phini likaSomlomo, lungu elihloniphekileyo, ubaba uSibuyana, impendulo ithi: Hhayi, asikho isidingo sokuthi ngithumele ithimba elikhethekile ukuze lihambe liyobheka ukuthi ngabe izimfuno nezidingo zabantu baseBushbuckridge ziyini mayelana nokuphathelene namanzi namahlathi ngoba uMnyango wami wezaManzi namaHlathi uyazazi kahle izidingo zomphakathi waseBushbuckridge. Nomasipala waseBushbuckridge ngokunjalo uyazazi lezi zidingo kanye nebhodi lamanzi elilaphaya eBushbuckridge nalo liyazazi lezi zidingo. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[The MINISTER OF WATER AFFAIRS AND FORESTRY: Madam Deputy Speaker, hon member, Mr Sibuyana, the answer is: No, there is no need for me to send a special task team to go and check the needs of the people of Bushbuckridge concerning water and forestry issues because my department of Water Affairs and Forestry is aware of the Bushbuckridge community’s needs. Even the Bushbuckridge municipality as well as the Bushbuckridge Water Board know these needs.]

I am saying this because it is not correct that the entire Bushbuckridge area has been constantly overlooked as a result of the boundary issues because, at all times, this area has been serviced by our regional office of the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry situated in Limpopo, with the assistance of the Bushbuckridge Water Board.

Since the demarcations that came about with new boundaries for municipalities, my department has started with an internal process to transfer roles and responsibilities on service delivery from our regional office in Limpopo to the regional office in Mpumalanga, where this area is now.

The transfer of responsibilities obviously will include all issues that were dealt with by this regional office in Limpopo, including the operation and maintenance of some of the water schemes, and the programmes and projects related thereto. It has been agreed between the two provinces that the transfer process will be done in an integrated way in order to avoid confusion and disruptions, and this information will also be communicated to the affected communities.

This will effectively mean that our department in the Limpopo regional office will, in the short-term, continue with the functions while involving the other office in Mpumalanga on all issues to make sure that there is a smooth takeover of the services that we provide. Only once the Mpumalanga office is in charge and in control of all these functions will the other departments then exit. My department’s regional office in Mpumalanga is also encouraging communities … [Time expired.] Thank you, hon Chairperson.

Mr M W SIBUYANA: Chair, hon Minister, the answer that I am getting here is actually inducing me to believe that places the portfolio committee visited on oversight visits were not serviced by any of the entities that the Minister has alluded to. I am from an area which has never been visited. Is the Minister actually telling me that Bushbuckridge will never have any portfolio committee visiting the area? Thirdly, will I be able to dispel the notion that comes from the people of Bushbuckridge that the portfolio committee only visits areas where the ruling party has members in the community? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF WATER AFFAIRS AND FORESTRY: Hon Chairperson, that is a very difficult question to answer for the portfolio committee. I am assuming that the member is part of the Portfolio Committee on Water Affairs and Forestry, and participates in discussions and identification of areas that must be visited by the portfolio committee. I have never heard of portfolio committees of Parliament choosing to visit areas where the ruling party is in power.

My view is that we have a responsibility to all South Africans to make sure that we visit, identify problems they are faced with, and come up with solutions to deal with those problems. So what I was saying with regard to Bushbuckridge was that, according to my information, my foot soldiers on the ground say that they are seized with the matter, and they are dealing with those problems.

I think that issues of portfolio committee meetings and visits need to be dealt with within the structure of the portfolio committee. If there is such a perception in Bushbuckridge, hon members from Bushbuckridge who are here could then tell us if that perception is true - that we are only servicing areas where the ruling party is in power. What I could say is that if there are communities in this area affected by whatever problems, we have a toll-free number that they can phone in order to get assistance regarding their complaints. That toll free line is 0800 200 200. Also, the Bushbuckridge local municipality is currently participating with us in a forum called District Water Services Collaboration Forums, chaired by the Ehlanzeni District Municipality.

Mufumakadzana T E LISHIVHA: Mudzulatshidulo, khamusi kha ndi thome nga u sumbedza uri muhulwane washu vha tou vha na thaidzo ngauri vha khou ṱoḓa komiti i tshi dalela muḓi wavho. Hu tshe vhone mue, vha dovha vha sumbedza uri na misanda a i tendi u vha thetshelesa. Hezwi zwi amba uri vha na thaidzo.

Kha vha i lugise Vho-Sibuyana! Minisiṱa, mbudziso yanga ndi ya uri, musi ri tshi khou tshimbila ri tshi dalela mavunḓu u ya nga u fhambana hao na haningei Bushbuckridge, ro wana uri hu na u tshinyadzwa ha dzibommbi na dziphaiphi, na u sa shumiswa zwavhuḓi ha maḓi nga vhadzulapo.

Zwino ndi khou vhudzisa uri naa muhasho wavho u na zwine wa khou ita naa u lugisa vhauḓa hovhu vhune ha khou hulela vhu tshi ya. Ndo livhuwa. (Translation of Tshivenḓa paragraphs follows.)

[Ms T E LISHIVA: Chairperson, let me start by indicating that the hon member has a problem because he wants the committee to visit his house. He further states that even the chiefs do not listen to him. This indicates that he has a problem.

Sort it out Mr Sibuyana. Hon Minister, my question is, as we were visiting provinces, in Bushbuckridge we found that there are taps and water pipes that were damaged and there was a wastage of water by citizens. Is your department doing something to sort out the mishap that is continuously happening? I thank you.]

The MINISTER OF WATER AFFAIRS AND FORESTRY: Thank you, hon member, for that follow-up question. I think it is important to say that my department, as sector leader, has to ensure that the services and the infrastructure that need to be in place are in place. But we do that in a supportive role to all municipalities. It is the responsibility of the municipalities to ensure that those services are provided, as they are there, can identify local needs, intervene and can prioritise. We support them through capacity- building, infrastructure, and maintenance of the infrastructure that is under the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry. We also support them by seconding experts like engineers. A lot of engineers have been seconded to the municipalities to help them with project plans, and we support them even with finances.

It is a serious concern to me that, as South Africans, we are not very much aware that we are a water-scarce country, and that water is being wasted. I have seen water running down the streets, clean water. In some cases, if water has been running for some time, our duty is to intervene and make sure that the municipality does correct the flaws, and we do give assistance in that regard.

Mrs D VAN DER WALT: Madam Chairperson, Minister, indeed, the water needs of the people of Bushbuckridge need urgent investigation and attention. If you say your department is on top of that, I hope that is true.

Concerning its focus on providing water to communities, the Bushbuckridge Water Board gets into serious trouble when fulfilling its mission because of its complete dependence on subsidies from Dwaf, which is not in alignment with the equitable share philosophy.

My question will be whether there is any sense in maintaining this water board for provision of water essentially to a single municipality, and whether you will at least give this your urgent attention? And please explain to us what plans are in place to recover all these debts?

The MINISTER OF WATER AFFAIRS AND FORESTRY: Well, the hon member is making a statement that this water board is in trouble. Obviously I will have to investigate that statement, and see how I can intervene. Intervention obviously will mean strengthening the capacity of the board to do the work that it is supposed to do, and if there are debts owing, to work around that. But, at the moment, I am not aware of the serious problems that you are talking about.

Mr M W SIBUYANA: Chairperson, I would like to inform the hon Minister that, up to now, service delivery has not been taking place at Okkerneutboom because of infighting about the question of the independent candidate who won. The hon Minister will not get enough meaningful responses, because those people that the hon Minister is relying on are both referees and players at the same time. That is why we called on the select committee to go and find out.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam, on a point of order: I am not sure about the Rules. Is there no restriction on the number of times a member can ask questions in the House?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): No.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: No restrictions?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): There are opportunities for supplementary questions, and if there is nobody else who wants to take the opportunity, I return to the person who set the question.

Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Chair, I wonder if the hon Chief Whip of the ANC would undertake a little course as to what is a point of order and what is not a point of order. I think we will save this House a great deal of time. [Interjections.]

       Steps to overcome delays in construction of De Hoop Dam

1. Mr J D Arendse (ANC) asked the Minister of Water Affairs and Forestry:

   Whether any steps have been taken to overcome the delays in the construction of the De Hoop Dam, an Accelerated and Shared Growth Initiative for South Africa (Asgisa) project, in Limpopo; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details?

           N1521E
   

The MINISTER OF WATER AFFAIRS AND FORESTRY: Chairperson, I would like to thank the hon member for this question. Let me first say that the project of the construction of De Hoop Dam, as you correctly say, is an Asgisa project. Not only do we hope, through this project, to bring the very much- needed water services to the people of this area, but through it, as an Asgisa project, we hope that it will assist us in accelerating the growth of the economy in the area. Whilst the economy grows, it will also assist us to make sure that the people in the surrounding area share in its growth.

The answer to your question is that, yes, steps have already been taken by my department to mitigate the delays in the construction of De Hoop Dam. As you know, a record of decision was issued by the Minister of Environmental Affairs and Tourism in November 2005, after which there were appeals against this decision. The Minister has been looking at these appeals and, working together with us, we’ve been trying to resolve some of the very serious concerns that the appellants have raised. So, the delay is beyond the control of my department, but, as I say, we have co-operated with different spheres of government in complying with the procedure for addressing these appeals.

I think it is important to say that we, as a department, haven’t been sitting still while the Minister of Environmental Affairs and Tourism has been looking at this issue. We have been doing some preparatory work to make sure that once the appeals process is finalised, we are ready to do some work.

Just in trying to resolve the issue of the appeals, we have met with the head of SANParks, which resulted in an agreement between my department and SANParks to recommend amendments aimed at strengthening some aspects of the record of decision and introduce long-term measures to improve co- operation.

We have met with the appellants collectively to discuss the issues of concern that they raised. This meeting was held in good faith and led to a greater understanding of the concerns that were raised by all the parties.

We have also continued with some activities related to the construction of the dam itself, and this includes the realignment of the R555 road around the dam basins. [Time expired.]

Mr J D ARENDSE: Chairperson, I’d like to thank the Minister for her answer. The problem is that the committee paid an oversight visit to the province and it became clear when you visited the area that the dam would serve that the people who would receive the most benefit from the completion of the dam were all from the previously disadvantaged community. It’s poor people and it just becomes a problem that whenever any project of this government is going to serve the most needy, then the EIAs become such a big problem.

So I just want to know whether the Minister can actually assure us that the principles of co-operative governance were adhered to right from the beginning so that we can speed up this project, because the fact that it has been identified as an Asgisa project clearly says that the government identified the need for this project. It’s just that when we saw who was going to be served and who was going to benefit, we found it peculiar that the EIA had then become such a big problem. [Time expired.]

The MINISTER OF WATER AFFAIRS AND FORESTRY: Chairperson, although my department is concerned about the protracted delays caused by the appeals process, I think it is important to recognise that there is environmental legislation in place and that we should be able to strike a balance between the development of the dam and the concerns around the environment, and respect the processes outlined in this legislation.

We are working with the Department of Environmental Affairs and Tourism to make sure that the EIA process, especially around infrastructure development, can be speeded up. I think hon members are aware that recent guidelines that were issued by this department were meant to help us to speed up the processes of getting and granting these environmental impact assessments. But, as I’ve said, our preparations are continuing in order to minimise further delays in authorisation granted in the record of decision.

We as government, having identified this project as an Asgisa project, obviously will do all in our power to ensure that the process is speeded up. There’s very extensive preparation that has been done around the dam regarding the exhumation of graves and resettling of those graves, archeological investigations, the housing projects and beginning to prepare providers. So there is a whole lot of other preparations going on in order for us to start immediately once this decision is made by the department. Thank you.

Ms J A SEMPLE: Chairperson, I want to thank the Minister for her commitment to the EIA process. There is concern that government might be compromising principles of sustainable development, so we appreciate your respect for that process.

Minister, one of the consequences of the dam is that it might constrict water flow, not only through the Kruger park, but also downstream in Mozambique. In fact, concerns have been raised that it might seriously compromise the relationship between South Africa and Mozambique because, as I’m sure you know, Mozambique is upgrading the Massingir Dam at the end of the Olifants River, and it’s a fact that the two governments, in terms of SADC agreements, must share the watercourse and negotiate on the sustainable use of their shared water bodies.

Minister, I would like to ask you whether, in fact, you have had negotiations with your counterpart in Mozambique on this issue and what the details are, because they’re also concerned that when mining development occurs there will be pollution downstream on the Mozambique side. Thank you.

The MINISTER OF WATER AFFAIRS AND FORESTRY: Chairperson, I think this is a new question that actually requires investigation. Where I stand I haven’t had any discussions with my counterpart, but I know that our policy as government is that where there are trans-boundary resources such as shared watercourses you can’t do anything without consulting with your neighbours, including those who are downstream and may be affected by you stopping water or building a dam, wherever you’re building it. So my assumption is that if what we are doing is going to have such an effect, those consultations, if they haven’t taken place, will obviously take place, but that question needs to be brought back for me to provide a definitive answer.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): You’re quite right, Minister, but thank you for answering.

Mr S SIMMONS: Chairperson, I’d like to ask the hon Minister which areas will be serviced by the De Hoop Dam when it’s completed, what the cost of the building of the dam will be and how many households will benefit from the water supply provided by the De Hoop Dam?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon Minister, that’s also a longer question than you need to answer.

The MINISTER OF WATER AFFAIRS AND FORESTRY: I think that’s a new question and I don’t have the information. I would appreciate it if the hon member could table that question.

        Communication strategy to replace Khomanani campaign

1. Ms N C Nkabinde (UDM) asked the Minister of Health:

   Whether her department has a communication strategy to replace the Khomanani Campaign; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? N1434E

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chairperson, I must say the question is rather very strange, because it talks about “replacement” and the Department of Health has no policy on replacement at all. So, I don’t know how to tackle it but I will try my best.

The hon member is talking about replacing the Khomanani campaign and, as I have said, we have never said that we are replacing the campaign. I don’t know but I will try my best because the hon member, Nkabinde, would know that Khomanani is a brand name for the South African government’s HIV/Aids sexually transmitted infections and TB communication strategy. It isn’t just an entity out there. It is a government campaign. And therefore, it is still in place and it will continue to be in place.

It is only the term of service providers who have been running the campaign on our behalf, which lapsed on 14 July. The Khomanani awareness campaigns and activities on HIV and Aids, sexually transmitted infections and TB are up and running until the end of the financial year, when we do get resources from Treasury. So, there is no replacement. That is why I find it a little bit difficult to answer a question on replacement, when there’s no replacement at all.

If I can proceed a little bit further and give additional information to hon Nkabinde, these activities of Khomanani include billboards …

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Chairperson, on a point of order: I wonder if you could appeal to the Minister to speak up a little bit, because we can’t hear a word that she is saying. I don’t know whether it is a microphone, but we are very much interested and we can’t hear her.

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: I should probably bring hearing aids into Parliament. [Laughter.] But I didn’t think that that’s my responsibility and I don’t manipulate these gadgets. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon members, if you speak so much, we won’t hear the Minister at all. The MINISTER OF HEALTH: I can’t put it into my mouth, even if the DA wants me to put it into my mouth. I am not going to do that! [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Order please! Order please!

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: I was saying the activities of Khomanani, include billboards with HIV/Aids and STIs, that is sexually transmitted infections and TB prevention messages in all provinces, hon Nkabinde. The murals on HIV and Aids, sexually transmitted infections and TB painted nation-wide will remain as a symbol of comprehensive work that is done by the Department of Health.

The red ribbon resource centre is still keeping the stock and continues to distribute small media such as pamphlets, posters on HIV and Aids, sexually transmitted infections and TB to the public and private sectors, including the nongovernmental organisations. I hope I can have the opportunity to conclude the response to educate the hon member. Thank you. [Time expired.]

Nk N C NKABINDE: Ngiyabonga mhlonishwa Ngqongqoshe ngempendulo yakho. Ngiyajabula ukwazi ukuthi le-initiative kaKhomanani ye-government isazoqhubeka. I-problem ebenginayo ngukuthi, njengoba umhlonishwa eseshilo ukuthi i-contract i-lapsile, bengingezwanga ukuthi ikhona yini ithenda nokuthi ubani ozoqhubeka noku-implimenta le-process yeKhomanani campaign. I-concern enginayo mhlonishwa ukuthi … (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[Mrs N C NKABINDE: Thank you hon, Minister, for your response. I am happy to know that this government’s initiative called Khomanani will carry on. The problem I had, as the honourable has said, was that the contract has already expired. I did not hear whether there is a tender and who will continue to implement this process of the Khomanani campaign.

My concern, hon member, is that …]

… the government’s efforts to communicate a clear and simple message regarding HIV and Aids have been dogged by controversy and confusion. Irrespective of who is to blame for this confusion, the truth is that HIV is claiming thousands of lives whilst many thousands more are still becoming infected.

UNGQONGQOSHE WEZEMPILO: Sihlalo, umbuzo angiwuzwanga, ngizwe umbono. Mhlawumbe ukhona umbuzo abefuna ukungibuza wona kodwa angiwuzwanga.

Nk N C NKABINDE: Ungiphendulile Ngqongqoshe because you said izoqhubeka even though i-contract ingavuselelwanga. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Chairperson, I did not get the question. I only heard a point of view. Maybe there is a question she wanted to ask me but I did not get it.

Mrs N C NKABINDE: You have answered me, Minister, because you said that the contract will carry on even though it was not renewed.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon member, this is not a debate across the floor. If you didn’t have a follow-up question, thank you very much. We will proceed to the next person. Hon Deputy Minister, is that a point of order?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Sihlalo, bendicela ukuba ohloniphekileyo, ilungu elibekekileyo lale Ndlu, uNkabinde, ancede … [Chairperson, I would like to ask the hon member Nkabinde to please …]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon Deputy Minister, you can raise a point of order, but you cannot use this opportunity to appeal to the other member. [Interjection.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Yiyo kaloku le. Yiyo le. Masisebenzise [This is a point of order. This is it. Let us use …]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): We are still busy with the question to the hon Minister of Health, there isn’t an opportunity to accept your appeal on a point of order, but this is not an opportunity for yourself to address the member. I regret, but that is the position. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Ndakwenza njalo. [I shall oblige.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C S Botha): Hon Minister, if I misunderstood and did not hear the interpretation properly while, in fact, you were raising a point of order, I did not hear that. So if you were raising a point of order, please continue to do so, but that’s not what I understood.

USEKELA-MPHATHISWA WEZOBUGCISA NENKCUBEKO: Mhlalingaphambili, ndinengxaki xa apha kule Ndlu sisebenzisa iilwimi ezimbini ngexesha elinye, isiNgesi nesiZulu, sizixube. NgokoMgaqo-siseko nangokwendlela esizama ukuba sizisebenzise ngayo iilwimi zethu, ndicinga ukuba le Ndlu kufanele iyiqwalasele loo nto. Enkosi. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)

[The DEPUTY MINISTER OF ARTS AND CULTURE: Chairperson, I have a problem because we tend to use two languages at the same time in the House, English and isiZulu. In terms of the Constitution and the manner in which we try to use our languages, I think that we should take note of that. Thank you.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Thank you for that. I know that it is sometimes confusing, but can we then proceed to the hon Manana.

Nk M N S MANANA: Sihlalo, angibonge kuNgqongoshe ngempendulo yakhe efundisayo maqondana nokuthi le Ndlu yazi ukuthi kanti ngempela ngempela iyini iKhomanani. Ngiyethemba ukuthi umhlonishwa uNkabinde ufundile ukuthi ngabe iyini iKhomanani.

Mhlawumbe okwenza adideke kakhulu ngukuthi kuzokwenzekani emuva kokuphela kwezimali njengoba sesiphelile isikhathi salabo abakade bengama-service provider. Mhlawumbe yilokho umhlonishwa uNkabinde abekade efuna ukukwazi – ukuthi kuzobe sekwenzekani. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[Ms M N MANANA: Chairperson, I thank the Minister for her educative response so that this House understands what Khomanani is all about. I hope the hon Nkabinde has learnt what Khomanani is.

Maybe the only thing that confuses her most, is the uncertainty as to what will happen after the funds have been exhausted since the contract of service providers has expired. Maybe that is what the hon Nkabinde wants to know - where to from here.]

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Maybe I should continue and hope that at the end of my response it will be clear. [Interjections.] As I was saying, the activities of Khomanani are on the website and the hon Nkabinde can look at that as well. We are still continuing with the youth prevention choice on SABC 2 - I hope she watches television - and is backed by the public demand. Khomanani community action which includes the component of Khomanani community partners, continues to engage in door-to-door awareness campaigns in the districts selected by the provinces.

Maybe, I should also add – Chair, I hope that you are listening to me, so that you don’t say my time has expired before it expires – that there are other programmes, of course. It doesn’t mean that if this service provider does not get this tender, there will be a gap. They are absolutely making a terrible mistake, because, indeed, in the department we have other ways and means of communicating with the public, including myself talking to different forums, and the MECs, the HODs and other members of the Cabinet who address the communities on this very important subject. As I said, of course, it runs until the end of the financial year. We have to make a bid to Treasury so that we can get additional funds to continue with this programme. Thank you.

Mr R COETZEE: Speaker, Minister, the situation is really quite simple and has been made clear to the House. The fact is that the tender for the Khomanani campaign has expired and the new one has not been put in place. You gave us the assurance that the campaign will continue, but reports are that the campaign is not continuing in the manner that it should. If it doesn’t, and if a new tender isn’t put in place, there will be an enormous gap because it is the flagship of the government’s communication on HIV/Aids and with due respect, your contribution to that communication in South Africa is less than helpful right now.

So, could you please give this House an assurance that a new tender will be provided timeously and that there won’t be a gap and that an application will be made to the Treasury for an increased funding to ensure that communication on HIV happens? Can you give the House that assurance and can you show some passion and commitment in doing so, please? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF HEALTH: Speaker, I have repeatedly said in this House that I am not the type of a person who repeats herself. When I have answered the question, I have done so. Thank you.

See also QUESTIONS AND REPLIES.

REQUEST BY THE EXECUTIVE FOR PARLIAMENT TO REVIEW INSTITUTIONS SUPPORTING DEMOCRACY AND THE PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION

                           (Announcements)

The SPEAKER: Hon members, as you might be aware, the executive earlier identified a need for an overall review of constitutional institutions supporting democracy, including the Public Service Commission. The Minister for the Public Service and Administration, to whom this task was assigned, has now written to me requesting Parliament to take this process forward.

I have asked party Whips to consider the request with a view to setting up an ad hoc committee with appropriate terms of reference to conduct such a review. I anticipate that the Whips will bring the matter to the House for consideration, hopefully tomorrow. Should the House agree, this would be the first such review since these institutions were established some 12 years ago.

In conducting this review, the National Assembly should be mindful of the important constitutional role that these institutions play in upholding and strengthening democracy, and that they must be assisted and protected to ensure their independence, impartiality, dignity and effectiveness.

I thought it is important for me to make this brief statement, so that we are all aware of this very important exercise that is about to unfold. Hopefully, we will all support it and ensure that it is a successful one.

ESTABLISHMENT OF AN EXCHANGE PROGRAMME BETWEEN THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY OF SOUTH AFRICA AND NATIONAL PEOPLE’S CONGRESS OF THE PEOPLE’S REPUBLIC OF CHINA (Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Speaker, I move without notice:

That the House –

(1) notes that –

       (a)   the Speaker and a multiparty delegation will leave on an
             official visit to the People’s Republic of China on
             Thursday, 21 September 2006;


       (b)   one of the purposes of the visit is to establish a regular
             exchange mechanism between the National Assembly of South
             Africa and the National People’s Congress of the People’s
             Republic of China; and


       (c)   a draft memorandum of understanding, establishing a
             regular exchange mechanism was discussed prior to the
             delegation’s visit by members of the National People’s
             Congress and the Task Team on Parliament’s International
             Relations Policy; and

(2) mandates the Speaker, on behalf of the House, to enter into an agreement on the establishment of an exchange programme to the mutual benefit of the National Assembly and National People’s Congress; and

(3) requests the Speaker to table and refer to the Rules Committee and Parliamentary Oversight Authority any agreement entered into for consideration of issues arising from the establishment of a regular exchange mechanism.

Agreed to.

                   DEVELOPMENTS IN THE MIDDLE EAST


                  (Resumption of debate on motion)

Resumption of debate on motion by Chief Whip of the Majority Party, namely:

That the House -

(1) noting -

    (a)      with grave concern the developments in the Middle East;


    (b)      Israel's collective punishment of both the Palestinian and
          Lebanese peoples;


    (c)      the disproportionate response of Israel and the use of
          military force against civilian targets, resulting in
          hundreds of deaths and injuries, mainly of women, children
          and the elderly, the massive destruction of vital life-
          supporting infrastructure, and the displacement of over a
          million people;


    (d)      the catastrophic humanitarian crisis in Gaza and  Lebanon,
          for which Israel's aggression is responsible;


    (e)      the anger and concerns of many sectors  of  our  people  -
          including  political  parties,  trade  unions  and  religious
          leaders; and


    (f)      the commencement of a UN mandated ceasefire on Monday,  14
          August 2006;

(2) believing –

    (a)      that the threat of a regional war might become a  reality,
          which will  seriously  endanger  regional  and  international
          peace and security;
    (b)      that the actions of Israel are against  international  law
          and the Geneva Convention;


    (c)      that the  Palestinian  people  have  the  right  to  self-
          determination and independence in the State of Palestine  and
          that the State of Israel has the right to exist alongside the
          State of Palestine, within secure borders; and


    (d)      that a negotiated final status agreement would best  serve
          the peoples  of  Israel,  Palestine  and  Lebanon,  and  more
          generally the cause for peace and security in the region; and

(3) resolves -

    (a)      to call upon all parties to desist from any actions  which
          may exacerbate the conflict;


    (b)      to call for the maintenance of a ceasefire by all sides;


    (c)       to  call  for  a  negotiated  solution  of  the  Israeli,
          Palestinian and Lebanese prisoner issue;


    (d)      to call upon the UN  Security  Council  to  discharge  its
          responsibilities and act with urgency to enforce and maintain
          the full cessation of hostilities and Israel’s withdrawal  of
          its troops at the earliest;


    (e)       to  call  upon  the  UN,  on  the  basis  of  various  UN
          resolutions, to seek a peaceful comprehensive solution; and


    (f)      to call upon the international  community  and  the  South
          African government and people to respond to the  catastrophic
          humanitarian tragedy in the region.

and on an amendment moved by Mr D H M Gibson, namely:

To omit all the words after “That the House -” and to substitute with the following:

(1) noting -

    (a)      with grave concern the recent developments in the Middle
          East;


    (b)      the devastating loss of life of both the people of Lebanon
          and Israel;


    (c)      the support of Hezbollah and its terrorist activities by
          Syria and Iran;


    (d)       the  right  of  self-determination  for  the  people   of
          Palestine and the sovereign right to self-defence of Israel;


    (e)      that South Africa’s official foreign policy in the  Middle
          East is the acceptance of a two-state solution and  that  any
          attempt  to  abandon  this  position   will   undermine   our
          international credibility; and


    (f)      the commencement of a UN mandated ceasefire on Monday,  14
          August 2006;

(2) resolves that -

    (a)       both  sides  must  desist  from  any  actions  which  may
          exacerbate the conflict;


    (b)      Hezbollah must disarm in line with UN Resolution 1559  and
          Israel must withdraw its troops from  southern  Lebanon  once
          this has been achieved;


    (c)      Syria and Iran must be condemned for financing, arming and
          inspiring the conflict;
    (d)      a lasting two-state solution  must  be  respected  by  all
          parties in the region;


    (e)      the UN Security Council act with urgency  to  enforce  and
          maintain the full cessation of hostilities by both sides; and


    (f)      the South  African  government  must  focus  more  on  the
          immediate humanitarian crisis  in  Zimbabwe,  rather  than  a
          conflict over which it has little or no influence

and on amendments moved by Mr M B Skosana, namely:

In paragraph (1), to omit subparagraphs (b), (c) and (d); and

In paragraph (2)(b), to omit “Israel“ and to substitute “the belligerent parties”.

Ms S P RWEXANA: Chairperson, the conflict in the Middle East is characterised by active and deliberate targeting of civilians, particularly against women and children, and more recently against humanitarian staff of the United Nations. It is common cause that any violence perpetrated by military forces against defenceless and unarmed civilian population cannot result in the same comparable loss of life incurred by the aggressor.

The ANC will not remain silent on the brutal attacks by the Israeli armed forces on unarmed innocent civilians in Gaza and Lebanon, which have resulted in the killing of hundreds, wounding and deprived many more of water, electricity, food and shelter. Parliamentarians cannot remain silent on loss of human beings, particularly, women and children in the Middle East. This arises from our commitment to international solidarity and support for people struggling against foreign occupation and oppression. The masses in South Africa were buoyed by such international solidarity, which contributed to the establishment of our democratic South Africa.

The reality is that one million Lebanese did in fact end up as refugees. About 15 000 buildings were destroyed - wrecked beyond repair by Israel’s missile attacks. As is the tradition in Arab society, many of these several- story buildings were home to multiple families, meaning that many homes, probably more than 15 000, have been destroyed. It is widely reported that more than 100 000 homes were ruined.

Yesterday, the UN said that with the new school year beginning in just a few days’ time, 70% of Palestinians in the Gaza Strip cannot feed themselves without assistance - a 30% increase in just over a year. The economy of Lebanon and Palestine has almost collapsed. The number of people to whom the UN World Food Programme is providing food has increased by 25% to 2 020 persons. The UN will be adding more beneficiaries, since the situation in the Middle East is deteriorating on a daily basis. The UN mentioned that, overall, half of the Palestinians living in the territories of Gaza and occupied West Bank are unable to feed themselves without assistance.

Recently, Mr Ibrahim, member of the national executive committee of the ANC, wrote in his personal capacity in the Sunday Independent on 6 August 2006, in reply to Mr Tony Leon, that it was Israel’s Prime Minister Ehud Olmert who had recently stated that the lives and wellbeing of Jewish residents are more important than the death of dozens of Palestinian innocents.

It is this type of arrogance that led Gideon Levy of Israel’s Haaretz newspaper to argue that a state that takes such steps is no longer distinguishable from a terror organisation. Since the recent military onslaught on Gaza, hundreds of Israelites have protested outside Olmert’s home, including his own daughter, denouncing the government’s actions.

It is the colossal destruction of civilians in the Middle East that prompted the UN Secretary-General to say the following:

No one disputes Israel’s right to defend itself. But, by its manner of doing so, it has caused and is causing death and suffering, on a wholly unacceptable scale. In the light of the current catastrophic situation in the Middle East, it is incumbent upon our Parliament to make a public statement on the conflict in the Middle East. The South African Parliament’s statement on this issue will enjoy international attention and, simultaneously, our traditional allies in the Middle East will appreciate intense support for what is their noble cause. I thank you. [Applause.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon member, I apologise for not being able to pronounce your name. I will ask you for a lesson afterwards. I thank you.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Chair, I am astounded that the hon Chief Whip has failed to withdraw his Middle East motion. This must be an embarrassment to the government because the motion before the House is a clear repudiation by the hon Chief Whip of the government’s declared policy on the Middle East. They must be enormously embarrassed.

The purpose of postponing this debate some weeks ago was for the parties to make an attempt to seek consensus on a new motion which will be acceptable to us all and, if I may say so, more constructive than the Chief Whip’s divisive and destructive effort. The only gesture made from that side was by two junior ANC Whips that visited me and undertook to draft a new motion to be circulated to all other parties. Nothing else happened. They didn’t bring me a motion to even begin to look at, and no attempt was made to reconcile the differing views.

For this reason, I persist with my amendment, which reads in part as follows: Firstly, that both sides must desist from any actions, which may exacerbate the conflict; secondly, Hezbollah must disarm in line with UN Resolution 1559 and Israel must withdraw its troops from Southern Lebanon once this has been achieved; thirdly, Syria and Iran must be condemned for financing, arming and inspiring the conflict; fourthly, a lasting two-state solution must be respected by all parties in the region; fifthly, the UN Security Council must act with urgency to enforce and maintain full cessation of hostilities by both sides; and, sixthly, the South African government must focus more on the immediate humanitarian crisis in Zimbabwe

• next door - where it has real power and influence rather than a conflict over which it has little or no influence.

I want to point out that this is now the second opportunity in a couple of weeks that this House has had to debate the Middle East, ie the Israeli and Palestine situation. We haven’t found time to debate the Darfur situation where 2,5 million people have been pushed out, from where genocide has taken place, where 300 000 people have been killed.

I want to echo the words of Archbishop Tutu who asked whether some lives are more valuable than others. Is it because these are African lives that we can’t find the time to talk about, but we can stick our noses into a situation where we have no influence and no relevance at all?

Since the hon Chief Whip has moved his motion, Amnesty International has in the interim found massive human rights violations by Hezbollah, specifically because they place their weapons right in civilian populations. Hezbollah used those people as cannon fodder. You should add that into your resolution, if you want to be fair.

I urge South Africans to stay calm - not allow the tensions between these two groups to sour relations between the communities and this country. We need to understand that we have no power and no influence in the Middle East. Our contribution to peace would be to use our influence in Africa and in the Non-Aligned Movement to lobby for the recognition of both Palestine and Israel with secure borders. We should also promote human rights and the freedoms which they encompass. And we should use our moral authority to lobby for nuclear disarmament rather than the proliferation, which is such a worrying trend.

We can spend our time arguing about motions like this and trying to be clever and embarrass people. If we are really in favour of peace, what we should do is to go back to where we have been, seek consensus in this House and make a contribution towards doing something constructive in the Middle East. [Applause.] The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): The next speaker is hon Van der Merwe.

Mr D J SITHOLE: Madam Chairperson, on a point of order, could I ask for your guidance in this instance? [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon Van der Merwe, would you please take your seat.

Mr D J SITHOLE: The member who has just spoken indicated that South Africa has not discussed or debated the Darfur conflict. The hon member, being a member of the Portfolio Committee on Foreign Affairs, finds it strange that this matter has been before the committee for long. I find it difficult that he is, in fact, misleading the House. [Interjections.]

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Chair, on a point of order: is this a point of order?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Order! What is your point of order, hon member?

Mr D J SITHOLE: My point of order is that the member was misleading the House by suggesting that there has been no debate on this matter.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Order! Hon Sithole, I am not here to judge the truth of such statements. I’m sorry, that is not a point of order. Please proceed, hon Van der Merwe.

Mr W P DOMAN: Chair, on a further point of order: if a member is out of order but the content of his statement alleging that the other hon member is misleading the House is wrong, I would want to ask you not to rule only on the fact that he is out of order but also on the remarks that he made that were also out of order.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon member, I did not hear that. I will enquire and come back to you on that.

Mr J H VAN DER MERWE: Chairperson, I wish to thank the Chief Whip of the ANC for postponing the finalisation of this debate in order to give parties the opportunity to try and get consensus on this very important international issue. In fact, negotiations took place between the ANC and us. I wish to thank the ANC Chief Whip for personally having to come to my office where we engaged in a very fruitful discussion, although we failed to resolve the matter.

We are therefore back to the motion on the Order Paper and the proposed amendments thereto. The IFP cannot support the ANC’s motion and will vote against it. We oppose the motion on the following grounds: Firstly, it is a one-sided motion condemning only one party – Israel. Secondly, there is no condemnation of Hezbollah, which launched an excessive 3 000 rockets into Israel – no condemnation. Thirdly, the ANC relies on what it calls “the UN position” but we disagree with the ANC’s interpretation thereof. Fourthly, by siding with the Palestinians, South Africa alienates Israel, harming our integrity as a possible future mediator.

The IFP proposes that South Africa should not take sides but should urge both Israelis and the Palestinians to abandon violence and rather continue to negotiate a peaceful settlement. Accordingly, the IFP will vote against the ANC’s motion and move for our amendment to be adopted. [Applause.]

Rev K R J MESHOE: Chairperson, the motion by the Chief Whip of the Majority Party disqualifies South Africa from becoming a future mediator in the current Middle East crisis. It is unfortunate that the motion chooses to ignore Hezbollah’s role in the conflicts. Also, it fails to acknowledge the unacceptable strategy that Hezbollah is using - to hide behind innocent women and children whenever they launch missiles against Israel.

What is even more shocking is the failure of the motion to address the President of Iran’s call for the annihilation of the state of Israel. That is unacceptable. Rather than falsely accusing Israel of using military force against civilian targets, the motion should have condemned the use of women and children as “human shields” by Hezbollah. The ACDP will definitely not support this motion. A true peacemaker must not take sides.

Therefore, I appeal to the Chief Whip of the Majority Party to be always unbiased whenever he tables a motion that addresses conflict anywhere in the world. Thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]

Dr C P MULDER: Hon Chairperson, I can understand that the ANC is under pressure for various reasons, but while you are under pressure, you are making one mistake after another now. Why have you lost your moral compass? What is going on? You know, this very well: How can you expect the Parliament of South Africa to put a stamp on this motion? How can you expect that?

This is a one-sided motion. It is an ANC kind of a motion, and you want Parliament to express itself in a completely biased fashion, in a completely one-sided fashion? We are now condemning the one side, and then you expect the world to take us seriously afterwards when our President goes out and tries to play a mediation role. Really, you’ve to rethink what you are doing.

You‘ve lost your moral compass in South Africa; you are making one mistake after the other. No party that is serious about South Africa’s image abroad can be asked to support this motion. We will vote against it. We will support the amendments. You have to rethink this. You are making one mistake after the other and it is not in your own interest. Thank you. [Applause].

Mr P H K DITSHETELO: Chairperson, it’s time we stood up and drove the point home that this country’s political problems should be settled by dialogue. We need to seek a world that is free of violence, free of nuclear war, free of invasions into other territories.

We should say no to any form of terrorism and not supply arms to any organisation that seeks to spill blood. In the same breath, we should not support governments because of their being initially strong. We have no doubt that the Middle East has the potential to enjoy peace as the people of South Africa do. The respective leaders in the Middle East must allow common sense to prevail and accept that Israel or Palestine will never disappear off the map of the world.

In the same breath, Lebanon should not be invaded at the whim of any country that wishes to pursue its own agenda. We therefore mandate the South African government to continue to engage the warring parties in the Middle East, without taking sides, to avoid being labelled as supporters of a specific grouping. [Time expired.]

Ms S RAJBALLY: Madam Chair, while the Israel-Palestine conflict has been going on for decades, the world has been hijacked into a frenzy of terror since 9/11. Israel, Palestine, Iraq and Lebanon have all exploded into the terror of bloodshed and warfare. We all know about bloodshed, but we also know the power of the world. It is hard for the world to understand why these conflicts cannot be resolved at a table instead of through the sacrifice of innocent lives.

Daily reports of bloodshed paint a bleak picture regarding the resolution of this situation. We do, however, believe that global pressure to resolve the dispute will serve to address terrorism and warfare. South Africa can play a pivotal role in dispute resolution, but must carefully guide against being sucked into this dispute.

The situation in the Middle East, ignorantly labelled “religion in the face of warfare,” makes Muslims, Jews and Christians all victims of discrimination globally. While we debate the Middle East situation, many lives are being destroyed. At this very moment, children’s laughter is changing into tears, orphans are born, mothers are forsaken and fathers are stolen by the war. What is South Africa prepared to do to stop this? Thank you very much. [Time expired.]

Mr S SIMMONS: Madam Chair, judging from the motion of the hon Chief Whip of the Majority Party on this issue, it becomes blatantly clear that the majority party bases its foreign policy on who their international allies are, instead of giving objective consideration to the merit of a particular issue. This is evident from this government’s persistence on putting the blame on one party for the Middle East crisis. The reality is that all parties involved in this crisis are collectively responsible for the current situation and should thus contribute equally to resolving it.

The United Nations also needs to be more consistent in the execution of its mandate to resolve international conflict situations. The UN should also apply the same urgency and vigour to resolve the crisis in Sudan, as it is doing in the Middle East. I thank you.

Mr M U KALAKO: Madam Chair, hon members, let me start by reiterating the position of the ANC and this government on the Palestinian-Israeli conflict which is that the Palestinian people have the right to self-determination and to the independence of the state of Palestine and that the state of Israel has the right to exist alongside the state of Palestine with secure borders.

The motion of the Chief Whip of the Majority Party is consistent with all UN resolutions on the conflict between Israel and Palestine. In addition, it is in line with the positions taken by the international community in condemning Israel for its actions in Lebanon and other occupied Palestinian territories.

Therefore, as the ANC, we are opposed to any amendments to the motion. What the DA is seeking to do through these amendments is to put the blame equally on the Palestinian and Lebanese people. The DA is selective in its condemnations. Whilst it condemns Syria and Iran, it says nothing about the long history of involvement of America and its interventions in different forms in the conflict - all in favour of Israel.

Hezbollah’s emergence in 1986 must be viewed against the background of the 1982 invasion by Israel, which occupied half of Lebanon. Hezbollah has correctly closely linked its freedom to that of the Palestinian people, because of the fact that Israel has a history of attacking any neighbouring country that supports the cause of the Palestinian people for their freedom.

It is interesting to note that the majority of South Africans, through their political formations, trade unions and religious leaders, have voiced their anger and concern regarding the actions of Israel in Lebanon, Gaza and the West Bank. But the DA has gone against all this to try to justify Israel’s actions based on the principle of self-defence.

The DA should tell us whether it supports the resolutions of the UN and the calls by the UN for the condemnation of Israel’s actions in Lebanon. Indeed, it would be a sad day if there were parties in this House who were opposed to UN positions on the solution to the conflict between Israel and Palestine.

The IFP should not sit on the fence on this matter. It should come out clearly whether it supports the position and sentiments of the UN on this matter, which our motion reflects. [Interjections.] Whatever relationship the IFP has and whether funded by Israel, does not give the IFP the right to actually sit on the fence on the issue. [Interjections.]

It is very interesting to deal with the DA. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Order please, members!

Mnu M U KALAKO: Into eyenzayo i-DA, - Khawukhe uthethe naba bantu bakho Sihlalo, - kukuzama nje ukusibonisa ukuba lonke eli xesha ifuna ukuzenza umlomo weIsreal apha kule Palamente. I-DA kufuneka yazi le nto, apha eMzantsi Afrika uninzi lwabantu balapha bayijonga laa ngxabano ngeliso lembali yeengxaki zaphaya nokuzibandakanya kwe-UN. Akukho ndlela thina singuKhongolosi siza kuma ngayo kulo mgangatho sigxeke abantu abangenatyala, abangakwazi nokuzikhusela, abahlaselwa ngabantu abaxhotyiswa yiMelika le ningasoze niyigxeke, kodwa nisoloko niyixhasa.

Kwaye kuza kufuneka sazi ukuba njengale nto yenziwa yi-DA uthi ulapha eMzantsi Afrika uxhasa iinjongo zabantu abakholelwa ekwandiseni umbuso kwamanye amazwe, thina siza kukhwela kuni; anizi kusinda tu apha kuthi. Ezo njongo nizixhasayo niya kuzixhasela phaya kude, hayi kule yethu iPalamente.

Le yiPalamente yabantu, emele abantu abahluphekileyo nabasakhulayo kwezoqoqosho lehlabathi. Kuzo zonke izigqibo ezithathwa kumbutho weZizwe eziManyeneyo, nditsho inkcazo okanye ingxelo kaNobhala-Jikelele weZizwe eziManyeneyo iyatsho ukuba ngoobani abenza izinto ezingatshongo khona. Ngoobani ababulala abafazi nabantwana? Yila Israel yenu. Ngamajoni omkhosi ase-Israel. Unyanisile futhi xa usithi yi-DA. Ndiya kukhwankqiseka ukuba kungafumaniseka ukuba uGibson akangomnye weeKhomanda zalaa mkhosi wase- Israel. [Kwahlekwa.]

Uyazi ikhona into ekufuneka siyiqondile. Ewe thina siyayiqonda ngenxa yemvelaphi yethu eyahlukileyo. Nina kudala nisitya ibhotolo, nikhwela phezu kweentente, ningena koo-Angola, nihlaselana nabantu abangenatyala. Kangangento yokuba asimangaliswanga yinto kaVan der Merwe. Wena mhlekazi ubukwi-SADF, ubuxhasa into yokungenelwa kwee-Angola neeMozambique, kubulawa abantwana nabafazi phaya. Ngoko ke into enjalo … (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)

[Mr M U KALAKO: What the DA does – please talk to your members Chairperson

• is to show us that this time they want to be a spokesperson for Israel in this Parliament. The DA must know that the majority of people in South Africa look at that conflict as a history that involves the UN. There is no way that the ANC will stand on this podium and criticise the innocent people who cannot protect themselves from armed forces supported by America, the one that you never criticise but always support.

It is necessary to let the DA know that, as they support the aims of people who believe in extending their imperial aims to other countries while they are in South Africa, we are going to take them to task; we are going to pin them down. You shall support those ideas from outside, not in this Parliament.

This is a people’s parliament that stands for the poor who are still learning the ropes of the world economy. In all the decisions taken at the UN, and I am referring to the report by the Secretary General of the UN, it is indicated clearly who are doing the wrong things. Who are killing women and children? It is your Israel. It is the army of Israel. You are correct when you say it is the DA. I will be surprised if hon Gibson is not one of the commanders of the Israelite army. [Laughter.]

You know, there is something that we need to understand. [Interjections.] Yes, we will understand this because of our experiences. You have been enjoying yourselves, entering Angola with tanks and attacking innocent people. The issue of hon Van der Merwe does not surprise us. You, hon member, were a member of the SADF and you supported the killing of children and women in Angola and Mozambique, However, that ….]

Mr J H VAN DER MERWE: Madam Chair, could I please ask this hon member a very easy question? [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon member at the podium, just take your seat for a moment. Hon members, we have the speaker, we have the interpreting, we have people who are calling for points of order and we have yourselves participating in the debate. It is almost impossible to hear what anybody is saying. Please, take it easy. Thank you. Hon member, will you take a question?

Mr M U KALAKO: No, no.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): I’m sorry, Mr Van der Merwe. He is not taking a question - easy or not. [Interjections.]

Dr C P MULDER: Chairperson, I rise on a point of order: In terms of the interpreting service, the hon member just made a statement that the hon Van der Merwe, as a member of the SADF, went into Angola to kill innocent women and children. [Interjections.] That is the statement that he made, in terms of the interpreting service. If that interpretation is correct, I would suggest that it is very unparliamentary and he should retract that remark immediately. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon member at the podium, as I was saying, it is very difficult to distinguish between the interpreting and yourself speaking. I am sorry about that. If you did make that statement, I would like you to retract it. If you didn’t, we will look at Hansard. Mr M U KALAKO: Ndithe Mhlalingaphambili, lo mfo wayeyinxalenye yabantu abaxhasa loo nto. Khange ndiyithethe leyo mna. [Chairperson, I said he was part of the people who supported that. I did not say that.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon member, I put a simple question to you, just answer that for me, please.

Mr M U KALAKO: Khange nditsho loo nto ayithethileyo; loo nto khange ndiyithethe. [I did not say what he is saying. I did not say that.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): You didn’t say that? Thank you. In that case, we will look at Hansard, hon Mulder. Please continue.

Mnu M U KALAKO: … apha eMzantsi Afrika inye into esingayenza, ilungu elibekekileyo uMnu Gibson apha uze kuthetha ngento yase-Dafur esazi kakuhle ukuba urhulumente woMzantsi Afrika uyinxalenye yokuzama ukulungisa laa ngxaki … (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)

[Mr M U KALAKO: … here in South Africa we can do one thing; the hon Gibson, has come to talk about the situation in Darfur knowing that the South African government is involved in the attempt to solve that problem …]

… knowing the South African government is deeply involved in solving that problem, and knowing very well that we have been at the forefront of solving the problem.

Ngoku beza apha ngeenjongo zokufuna ukunqanda ukuba singagxeki into eyenziwa nguSirayeli kubantu baseLebanon nabasePalestina. Kufuneka sithethe inyani apha; into yamaPalestina namaSirayeli ayifani. Uye usebenze ngabantu abagxothwa bakhutshwa emhlabeni wabo, bahamba bengcucalaza kunye nabantu abathathe umhlaba ongengowabo bahlala kuwo. Bafuna siyibaleke into yokuba abantu basePalestina bonke abanamakhaya, umntu ukhula abe lixhego kwizizukulwana ngezizukulwana eselubhacweni. Ngoku nifuna loo nto siyifanise neyabantu abasebenzisa amandla nenkxaso yehlabathi labantu abakholelwa ekukwandiseni umbuso wabo kwamanye amazwe akhokelwa yiMelika ukuba babethane nabantu abangenatyala. Asizi kuyenza loo nto Mhlalingaphambili, kwaye sikuKhongolosi ke asizi kuyitshintsha,kwaye andiyazi nokuba ibibuyiselwe ntoni. Ngesasivote kwangokuya sawuqabelisa lo mcimbi. [Kwaqhwatywa.] (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)

[They came here with the intentions to prevent us from criticising Israel’s actions against Lebanon and Palestine. We must tell the truth about the issue of Palestine and Israel; that it is not the same. Sometimes you work with people who were evicted from their land and are homeless and are forced to squat among those who have taken their land. They want us to shy away from the truth that Palestinians are homeless, and a person will grow into old age in exile. Now you want us to compare this situation with that of the people who are used by America in expanding its influence in other countries whilst torturing innocent souls. Chairperson, we are not going to do that and the ANC is not going to change anything. I do not even understand why this debate had to come back here. We should have voted and concluded the matter then. [Applause.]]

Debate concluded.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): That concludes the … [Interjections.] Order please, members! Order! That concludes the debate. But before we move to the amendments, I would like to return to the question of the point of order and the content of that point of order, which was questioned by the hon Doman.

According to the Table, the words used by Mr Sithole were “was misleading the House”, which is perfectly in order. Therefore, there was no point of order. [Interjections.]

I also want to make an explanation for the long process which is about to follow before I put the amendment by Mr Gibson. There is an amendment by Mr Gibson, which I will move first. Then there is a motion by the hon Skosana, and then we will go to the motion which was originally put by the Chief Whip of the Majority Party. So, it may be a long process.

Question put: That the amendment moved by Mr D H M Gibson be agreed to.

Division demanded.

The House divided:

AYES - 44: Batyi, F; Bhengu, M J; Blanché, J P I; Camerer, S M; Coetzee, R; Cupido, H B ; Davidson, I O; Ditshetelo, P H K; Doman, W P; Dreyer, A M; Dudley, C; Ellis, M J; Gibson, D H M; Jankielsohn, R; King, R J; Kohler-Barnard, D; Labuschagne, L B; Leon, A J; Lowe, C M; Maduma, L D; Meshoe, K R J; Minnie, K J; Morgan, G R; Mulder, C P; Pule, B E; Rabinowitz, R; Roopnarain, U; Sayedali-Shah, M R; Schmidt, H C; Seaton, S A; Selfe, J; Semple, J A; Simmons, S; Smith, P F; Smuts, M; Spies, W D; Steyn, A C; Swathe, M M; Trent, E W; Van der Merwe, J H; Van der Walt, D; Vezi, T E; Vos, S C; Waters, M.

NOES - 156: Abram, S; Anthony, T G; Arendse, J D; Asiya, S E; Asmal, A K; Beukman, F; Bhamjee, Y S; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, P; Bloem, D V; Bonhomme, T J; Botha, N G W; Burgess, C V; Cachalia, I M; Cele, M A; Chikunga, L S; Cwele, S C; Dambuza, B N; Daniels, P; Davies, R H; Dikgacwi, M M; Dithebe, S L; Dlali, D M; Du Toit, D C ; Fihla, N B; Frolick, C T; Gaum, A H; Gigaba, K M N; Gololo, C L; Goniwe, M T; Gumede, D M; Hanekom, D A ; Hendrickse, P A C; Hogan, B A; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, C B; Johnson, M; Kalako, M U; Kekana, C D; Khoarai, L P; Khumalo, K K; Khumalo, K M; Khunou, N P; Komphela, B M; Koornhof, G W; Kotwal, Z; Landers, L T; Lekgetho, G; Lekgoro, M M S; Likotsi, M T; Lishivha, T E; Louw, S K; Luthuli, A N; Maake, J J; Mabe, L L; Mabena, D C; Madasa, Z L; Madella, A F; Magau, K R; Magubane, N E ; Mahlaba, T L; Mahlangu-Nkabinde, G L; Mahote, S; Maja, S J; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleka, H P; Maluleke, D K; Martins, B A D; Mashangoane, P R; Mashiane, L M; Mashigo, R J; Masutha, T M; Mathibela, N F; Matlala, M H; Matsemela, M L; Mbili, M E; Mbombo, N D; Meruti, M V; Mgabadeli, H C; Mkhize, Z S; Mkongi, B M; Mnguni, B A; Mnyandu, B J; Moatshe, M S; Modisenyane, L J; Mogale, O M; Mogase, I D; Mohamed, I J; Mohlaloga, M R; Mokoena, A D; Molefe, C T; Moloto, K A; Montsitsi, S D; Morobi, D M; Mosala, B G; Moss, L N; Moss, M I; Motubatse- Hounkpatin, S D; Mshudulu, S A; Mthembu, B; Mthethwa, E N; Mtshali, E; Mzondeki, M J G; Nawa, Z N; Ndzanga, R A; Nel, A C; Nene, M J ; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngculu, L V J; Ngele, N J; Ngwenya, W; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njikelana, S J ; Nogumla, R Z; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, M M; Ntuli, R S; Nxumalo, M D; Nyambi, A J; Nzimande, L P M; Olifant, D A A; Phadagi, M G; Phungula, J P; Pieterse, R D; Rajbally, S ; Ramodibe, D M; Ramotsamai, C P M; Rasmeni, S M; Rwexana, S P; Saloojee, E; Schippers, J; Schneemann, G D; Seadimo, M D; Sefularo, M; Siboza, S ; Sibuyana, M W; Sithole, D J; Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Sotyu, M M; Surty, M E ; Thabethe, E; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; Tsenoli, S L; Tshivhase, T J; Tshwete, P; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, S C ; Van Wyk, A;

ABSTAIN - 5: Bhoola, R B; Bici, J; Chang, E S; Nkabinde, N C; Sigcau , S N.

Question not agreed to.

Amendment accordingly negatived.

Question put: That the amendments moved by Mr M B Skosana be agreed to.

Division demanded.

The House divided:

AYES - 46: Bhengu, M J; Bici, J; Blanché, J P I; Camerer, S M; Chang, E S; Coetzee, R; Cupido, H B ; Davidson, I O; Ditshetelo, P H K; Doman, W P; Dreyer, A M; Dudley, C; Ellis, M J; Gibson, D H M; Jankielsohn, R; King, R J; Kohler-Barnard, D; Labuschagne, L B; Leon, A J; Meshoe, K R J; Minnie, K J; Morgan, G R; Mulder, C P; Nkabinde, N C; Pule, B E; Rabinowitz, R; Roopnarain, U; Sayedali-Shah, M R; Schmidt, H C; Seaton, S A; Selfe, J; Semple, J A; Sibuyana, M W; Sigcau , S N; Simmons, S; Smith, P F; Smuts, M; Spies, W D; Steyn, A C; Swathe, M M; Trent, E W; Van der Merwe, J H; Van der Walt, D; Vezi, T E; Vos, S C; Waters, M.

NOES - 160: Abram, S; Anthony, T G; Arendse, J D; Asiya, S E; Asmal, A K; Batyi, F; Beukman, F; Bhamjee, Y S; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, P; Bhoola, R B; Bloem, D V; Bonhomme, T J; Botha, N G W; Burgess, C V; Cachalia, I M; Cele, M A; Chikunga, L S; Cwele, S C; Dambuza, B N; Daniels, P; Davies, R H; Dikgacwi, M M; Dithebe, S L; Dlali, D M; Du Toit, D C ; Fihla, N B; Frolick, C T; Gaum, A H; Gigaba, K M N; Godi, N T; Gololo, C L; Goniwe, M T; Greyling, L W; Gumede, D M; Hanekom, D A ; Hendrickse, P A C; Hogan, B A; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, C B; Johnson, M; Kalako, M U; Kekana, C D; Khoarai, L P; Khumalo, K K; Khumalo, K M; Khunou, N P; Komphela, B M; Koornhof, G W; Kotwal, Z; Landers, L T; Lekgetho, G; Lekgoro, M M S; Likotsi, M T; Lishivha, T E; Louw, S K; Luthuli, A N; Maake, J J; Mabe, L L; Mabena, D C; Madasa, Z L; Madella, A F; Maduma, L D; Magau, K R; Magubane, N E ; Mahlaba, T L; Mahlangu-Nkabinde, G L; Mahote, S; Maja, S J; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleka, H P; Maluleke, D K; Martins, B A D; Mashangoane, P R; Mashiane, L M; Mashigo, R J; Masutha, T M; Mathibela, N F; Matlala, M H; Matsemela, M L; Mbili, M E; Mbombo, N D; Meruti, M V; Mgabadeli, H C; Mkhize, Z S; Mkongi, B M; Mnguni, B A; Mnyandu, B J; Moatshe, M S; Modisenyane, L J; Mogale, O M; Mogase, I D; Mohamed, I J; Mohlaloga, M R; Mokoena, A D; Molefe, C T; Moloto, K A; Montsitsi, S D; Morobi, D M; Mosala, B G; Moss, L N; Moss, M I; Motubatse-Hounkpatin, S D; Mshudulu, S A; Mthembu, B; Mthethwa, E N; Mtshali, E; Mzondeki, M J G; Nawa, Z N; Ndzanga, R A; Nel, A C; Nene, M J ; Nene, N M; Newhoudt- Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngculu, L V J; Ngele, N J; Ngwenya, W; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njikelana, S J ; Nogumla, R Z; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, M M; Ntuli, R S; Nxumalo, M D; Nyambi, A J; Nzimande, L P M; Olifant, D A A; Phadagi, M G; Phungula, J P; Pieterse, R D; Rajbally, S ; Ramodibe, D M; Ramotsamai, C P M; Rasmeni, S M; Rwexana, S P; Saloojee, E; Schippers, J; Schneemann, G D; Seadimo, M D; Sefularo, M; Siboza, S ; Sithole, D J; Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Sotyu, M M; Surty, M E ; Thabethe, E; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; Tsenoli, S L; Tshivhase, T J; Tshwete, P; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, S C ; Van Wyk, A.

Question not agreed to.

Amendments accordingly negatived.

Question put: That the motion moved by the Chief Whip of the Majority Party be agreed to.

Division demanded.

The House divided: AYES - 160: Abram, S; Anthony, T G; Arendse, J D; Asiya, S E; Asmal, A K; Batyi, F; Beukman, F; Bhamjee, Y S; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, P; Bhoola, R B; Bloem, D V; Bonhomme, T J; Botha, N G W; Burgess, C V; Cachalia, I M; Cele, M A; Chikunga, L S; Cwele, S C; Dambuza, B N; Daniels, P; Davies, R H; Dikgacwi, M M; Dithebe, S L; Dlali, D M; Du Toit, D C ; Fihla, N B; Frolick, C T; Gaum, A H; Gigaba, K M N; Gololo, C L; Goniwe, M T; Greyling, L W; Gumede, D M; Hanekom, D A ; Hendrickse, P A C; Hogan, B A; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, C B; Johnson, M; Kalako, M U; Kekana, C D; Khoarai, L P; Khumalo, K K; Khumalo, K M; Khunou, N P; Komphela, B M; Koornhof, G W; Kotwal, Z; Landers, L T; Lekgetho, G; Lekgoro, M M S; Lishivha, T E; Louw, S K; Luthuli, A N; Maake, J J; Mabe, L L; Mabena, D C; Madasa, Z L; Madella, A F; Maduma, L D; Magau, K R; Magubane, N E ; Mahlaba, T L; Mahlangu-Nkabinde, G L; Mahote, S; Maja, S J; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleka, H P; Maluleke, D K; Manana, M N S; Martins, B A D; Mashangoane, P R; Mashiane, L M; Mashigo, R J; Masutha, T M; Mathibela, N F; Matlala, M H; Matsemela, M L; Mbili, M E; Mbombo, N D; Meruti, M V; Mgabadeli, H C; Mkhize, Z S; Mkongi, B M; Mnguni, B A; Mnyandu, B J; Moatshe, M S; Modisenyane, L J; Mogale, O M; Mogase, I D; Mohamed, I J; Mohlaloga, M R; Mokoena, A D; Molefe, C T; Moloto, K A; Montsitsi, S D; Morobi, D M; Mosala, B G; Moss, L N; Moss, M I; Motubatse-Hounkpatin, S D; Mshudulu, S A; Mthembu, B; Mthethwa, E N; Mtshali, E; Mzondeki, M J G; Nawa, Z N; Ndzanga, R A; Nel, A C; Nene, M J ; Nene, N M; Newhoudt- Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngculu, L V J; Ngele, N J; Ngwenya, W; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njikelana, S J ; Nogumla, R Z; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, M M; Ntuli, R S; Nxumalo, M D; Nxumalo, S N ; Nyambi, A J; Nzimande, L P M; Olifant, D A A; Phadagi, M G; Phungula, J P; Pieterse, R D; Rajbally, S ; Ramodibe, D M; Ramotsamai, C P M; Rasmeni, S M; Rwexana, S P; Saloojee, E; Schippers, J; Schneemann, G D; Seadimo, M D; Sefularo, M; Siboza, S ; Sithole, D J; Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Sotyu, M M; Surty, M E ; Thabethe, E; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; Tsenoli, S L; Tshivhase, T J; Tshwete, P; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, S C ; Van Wyk, A.

NOES - 45: Bhengu, M J; Bici, J; Blanché, J P I; Chang, E S; Coetzee, R; Cupido, H B ; Davidson, I O; Ditshetelo, P H K; Doman, W P; Dreyer, A M; Dudley, C; Ellis, M J; Gibson, D H M; Jankielsohn, R; King, R J; Kohler- Barnard, D; Labuschagne, L B; Leon, A J; Meshoe, K R J; Minnie, K J; Morgan, G R; Mulder, C P; Nkabinde, N C; Pule, B E; Rabinowitz, R; Roopnarain, U; Sayedali-Shah, M R; Schmidt, H C; Seaton, S A; Selfe, J; Semple, J A; Sibuyana, M W; Sigcau , S N; Simmons, S; Smith, P F; Smuts, M; Spies, W D; Steyn, A C; Swathe, M M; Trent, E W; Van der Merwe, J H; Van der Walt, D; Vezi, T E; Vos, S C; Waters, M.

Question agreed to.

Motion accordingly agreed to.

 CONDUCT OF HON D H M GIBSON IN RELATION TO THE PRESIDENT’S PRIVATE
                              RESIDENCE

                         (Draft Resolution)

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Chair, I move the draft resolution printed in my name on the Order Paper, as follows:

That the House –

 1) notes the reprehensible actions of the Hon D H M Gibson, MP, Chief
    Whip of the Democratic Alliance, and other members of the Democratic
    Alliance, accompanied by members of the news media, who attempted to
    enter a private property belonging to President Thabo Mbeki and
    First Lady Mrs Zanele Mbeki, on Friday, 1 September 2006, in
    Johannesburg;


 2) recognises that the Constitution of the Republic provides that:


      a) The Republic of South Africa is one, democratic state founded
         on the following values: human dignity, the achievement of
         equality and the advancement of human rights and freedoms;
      b) Everyone has inherent dignity and the right to have their
         dignity respected and protected; and


      c) Everyone has the right to privacy, which includes the right
         not to have their person or home searched;

 3) further recognises that the Constitution, national legislation and
    the Rules of Parliament provide for a variety of mechanisms to
    ensure openness, transparency and accountability with regard to the
    use of public funds;

 4) believes that –


    (a) the conduct of the Hon D H M Gibson, MP, exceeded all bounds of
         political maturity, was undignified and unbecoming of that of
         a Member of this House;


    (b) had the Hon D H M Gibson, MP, intended to conduct bona fide
         parliamentary oversight, he would have made use of the many
         mechanisms that exist for this purpose, and that his failure
         to do so is indicative of a calculated attempt to make cheap
         political capital;


    (c) Parliament and its Members have a duty, at all times, to be at
         the forefront of upholding the values of human dignity, the
         achievement of equality and the advancement of human rights
         and freedoms and of good governance, transparency and
         accountability; and


    (d) the actions of the Hon D H M Gibson, MP, constitute an
         infringement of the human dignity and privacy of President and
         First Lady Mrs Mbeki and an assault on the dignity and
         integrity of the Office of the President; and


 5) therefore resolves –


      a) to condemn, in the strongest terms, the actions of the Hon D H
         M Gibson, MP; and


      b) to call upon the Hon D H M Gibson, MP, to apologise
         unreservedly to President Thabo Mbeki and First Lady Mrs
         Zanele Mbeki, Parliament and the nation for his actions.

Ms C M P RAMOTSAMAI: Uyandibambezela, Madam Chair. [You are delaying me, Madam Chair.] … [Laughter.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Sorry, would you like to repeat that? I didn’t hear it.

Ms C M P RAMOTSAMAI: Madam Chair, the ANC has come to make an appeal to hon …

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon member, you said something at the beginning of the speech, which I missed. Would you like to repeat it?

Ms C M P RAMOTSAMAI: I was saying I was delayed, Ma’am. [Laughter.] [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Thank you. Proceed.

Ms C M P RAMOTSAMAI: Madam Chair, the ANC has come here to make an appeal to hon Douglas Gibson to apologise to this House for his unfair motives, which we have to look at very closely. The DA has a problem in that anyone who is black and serves on this democratic government is presumed corrupt until proven otherwise. [Interjections.]

A few days ago … If you want to say something, could you please come here. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Order please, members, order!

Ms C M P RAMOTSAMAI: A few days ago the hon Gibson was defiant during the debate we had in this House. He jumped up and down on this podium, defending his indefensible actions, reminding one of a jack-in-the-box. From one’s bench, one was bewildered and bemused at the same time that someone could be so arrogant even though there was a general consensus that he had acted dishonourably and that he had made a big mistake in the twilight of his career.

He continued with his economical truth by making statements on SAfm and in this House that the DA had sent a question to the Minister regarding the matter of his invasion of the property of our President. So, hon Gibson, are you going to apologise?

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: No!

Ms C M P RAMOTSAMAI: Do the honourable thing and apologise …

… ube yindoda yamadoda, uze kucela uxolo apha. [… be a man amongst men and come here and apologise.]

Where is the hon Tony Leon? Is he going to come here and apologise on your behalf or on behalf of the DA? The latest internally run opinion poll has made it clear to the DA that their support in Stellenbosch is doomed, if they want to know. The DA’s latest internally run opinion poll has made it clear to them that their own supporters rejected Gibson’s action, and that the people are turning against the DA.

Add to this the fact that Gibson has been rapped over the knuckles by their own Helen Suzman over his actions. [Applause.] This is an opportunity for you, hon Gibson, to demonstrate to the public and admit that you were wrong. Your actions are really backfiring in the face of the DA.

This demonstrates the DA’s hypocrisy. It shows the public that the DA isn’t what it seems to be; it is not sincere in what it does. Ironically, the hon Gibson has done the voters a favour by demonstrating the true colours and character of the liberal clique that controls the DA, something that decent South Africa cannot identify with.

We find the same hypocrisy in the City of Cape Town, where the DA had promised the voters a multiparty executive committee system when they thought it suited them. But now the DA is vehemently opposed to the idea of putting such a system in place because it wants to continue patronising, which must come to an end.

They showed the same hypocrisy when they attempted to demonstrate their openness and transparency by opening mayoral committee meetings in secret, when it suited them, to hide irregular activities from the public. They showed the same hypocrisy when they announced that they wouldn’t work with Truman Prince, and today they sleep under one blanket with Truman Prince of Icosa, the Independent Civic Organisation of SA.

How can people trust the DA when today you say you are not going to work with Truman, and the next day you sleep with Truman Prince? And you want to show the public …

… ukuba ningabona-bona bantu. Akukho nto iza kukunceda ke, Gibson, ngaphandle kokuba uze kucela uxolo apha. Wawubhampa phaya ngalaa mini, ubonakalisa iimpiko zakho ngento engekhoyo, ubiza amaphephandaba.

Ukhe waphanda na ngomba wokuba iinkokeli zangaphambili zigadelwa ngubani izindlu zazo, ukhuseleko lwazo lujongwe ngubani na? Okwesibini, uthini ngokhuseleko lukaMongameli olusingele phantsi. Nabani oyaziyo into oyenzileyo phaya uyazi ukuba luhlobo luni na lokhuseleko olukhoyo kulaa ndlu. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)

[… that you are the real people. Nothing will help you then, Gibson, except coming here and apologise. You were bumping there on that day, showing your wings for something that did not exist, inviting newspapers.

Did you investigate the issue of former leaders as to who is guarding their houses, and who is responsible for their security? Secondly, what are you saying about the security of the President which you undermined? Whoever saw what you did there knows what kind of security is in that house.] Do you then say that this Parliament must vote another budget to double the original one in order to secure the President’s house because of your silly, expensive action? I think it is about time that you reviewed all the foolish things that you do.

Ayisakuncedanga nto ke loo nto kuba ubonwe nazizibhanxa ukuba ayilunganga into oyenzayo. Uz’ukhe uphakame ke, ndoda, unyuse ibhulukhwe kakuhle, uze kucela uxolo kwisizwe sonke. Siyakucela ke ukuba, njengokuba nisaziwa njengabantu abacocekileyo, kha uze kuzihlambulula kweli qonga namhlanje, uze kucela uxolo kule Ndlu yonke nakwisizwe siphela kuba wenze into embi. Enkosi. [Kwaqhwatywa.] (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)

[That has not helped you, because even fools realized that what you did was not right. You must stand up then, man, prepare yourself, and come to apologise to the whole nation. We ask you therefore that, as you are known to be clean people, come to cleanse yourself from this podium today, and come to apologise to this House as a whole and the whole nation, because what you did is bad. Thank you. [Applause.]]

Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Chair, I must say that the previous speaker’s speech was quite remarkable. It is a great pity, and I want to say this to her that she has immediately brought the element of racism into the debate. But of course, we are used to it – it’s the old-fashioned tactic of the ANC, and it carries no water whatsoever. I want to say too that it was a hysterical speech but it’s no more hysterical than the motion that the hon Chief Whip brought before this House today. Quite clearly, Mr Goniwe believes he is on surer ground introducing this motion than he was when he tried to introduce a loyalty oath to his own caucus or when he tried to sweep Travelgate under the carpet. [Applause.]

Today’s proceedings are a calumny of hate and a circus of lies. It is quite extraordinary that not once in its turbulent history, since South Africa became a democracy in 1994, has this Parliament deemed it fit to censure any one of its representatives.

And yet, today, this Parliament has been convened for the solemn and ludicrous purpose of censuring the Chief Whip of the Opposition. What is a grave crime for which Parliament will censure him? Did he defraud Parliament as the former ANC Chief Whip, Tony Yengeni, did? No.

Did he defraud Parliament as some former and some present members did in the Travelgate scandal? Again, the answer is no. Did he undermine the Constitution by calling into question the qualifications of one of the Chapter 9 institutional heads in South Africa, as the former Minister Penuell Maduna did? And again, quite clearly, the answer is no.

Did he mislead Parliament as the Minister of Public Enterprises Alec Erwin did? No, he did not. He did none of these things. But these are all grave offences committed against variously the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, Parliament and the people themselves. Yet Parliament had neither the time nor the inclination to censure any one of them. [Interjections.]

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Chairperson, on a point of order …

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Order! Hon Ellis, please take your seat.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: I don’t intend to disrupt you, Sir. If you listened carefully, the hon Ellis asked: Didn’t members of this House defraud this House in the travel investigation or trial? It’s a trial and it’s in front of courts and I am not clear whether he is not contravening the sub judice rule? [Interjections.]

Dr C P MULDER: Chairperson, may I address you on this point of order?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Order! May I first respond to the present one: We will look at that and come back to you.

Dr C P MULDER: Chairperson, may I address you on this. Clearly, there were admissions of guilt by Members of Parliament who were members of this House who paid guilt fines. So, obviously, what the member said is correct. [Applause.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Order! Hon Mulder, it is because there are two sides of this question that we will look at. Please proceed, hon member.

Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Chair, I want to say that I agree fully with what the hon Mulder has said. Five people have admitted guilt, and therefore there can be no point of order.

I stress, Madam chair, the hon Gibson did none of the things that I have listed here. What are the facts? He did not lie, steal or commit fraud. He went to see the house the President is building as part of his duty to hold the government to account. An excitable group of journalists went with him. Despite all the hype, he did not invade the President’s privacy: he did not enter the property, he did not enter the house – you must get your facts right. He had a conversation with the representative of the building contractor on the pavement outside and left the site. He did not even see the house or the garden.

This so-called offence, Madam Chair, was certainly not a slight or a stain on the Constitution, which every MP in Parliament has sworn to uphold. On the contrary, what Mr Gibson was doing is absolutely and fundamentally in line with the Constitution, which states that members of the National assembly have a duty to maintain oversight of the exercise of the national executive authority.

So what is happening here today? What is this motion of censure really all about? In the first place, it is a crude and counter-productive hatchet job by the ANC to try to intimidate the opposition – and here we are referring to the real opposition – in this House. [Interjections.]

Peter, you can do a lot better than that, my friend. Secondly, it is a smokescreen to cover up the vast and widening cracks in the tripartite alliance – nothing, after all, like a common enemy to restore a semblance of unity to the governing party. But most ominously, it is an attempt to define what are acceptable and unacceptable rules and practices of politics – not in this House, but the wider South Africa. The governing party wants to use its majority to decide what we shall see and what we shall not see, what we will do and whom we shall visit. But we have news for them: We will continue to do our job on behalf of our voters, whether the ANC likes that or not. [Applause.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Order!

Mr M J ELLIS: This debate clearly also has to do with the ruling party’s own deep real concern with the real cost of the house in question, and how and to what extent the state is involved in the cost of the house. If this motion of censure is passed in this House today, it will be the absolutely worst example of tyranny of the majority. The questions that the DA has raised with regard to the cost of the house, and who is paying for what, remain unanswered, and it is this that is likely to cause the ruling party embarrassment in the future and when the facts emerge. Because emerge they will!

This motion of censure actually undermines the very reputation of Parliament itself. The ANC’s action and overreaction has caused more damage to Parliament than the hon Gibson’s visit. And one day, when the ANC is out of power, if not long before, this decision will come back to haunt it.

This censure, if passed, undermines President Mbeki’s much-vaunted conception of democracy. Last year the President stated, and I quote:

Our democratic processes have survived various tests, leading to the universal acceptance of our country as one of the strongest democracies.

It is this very sentiment that the ANC now seeks to directly undermine. It is a test for the ANC, for this Parliament and for South Africa’s democracy. It is the DA’s sincere hope that we do not fail this test because the damage will outweigh any political capital the ANC seeks to gain, Mr Goniwe. It will undo everything that we have achieved in this democracy today, Mr Goniwe.

So far as the DA’s conduct goes, if the ANC had its own way, it wouldn’t ever have to account for anything it ever does. But, fortunately, our Constitution prevents the ruling party from acting with impunity. The DA will continue to uphold the Constitution – South Africans wrote it, and we are part of that South Africa and very proud of it, Mr Goniwe.

This is not a court of law that weighs up evidence and comes to a conclusion. It is a matter of opinion - a show trial of hysterical proportions. The facts have no connection to the outcome and the only purpose of today’s proceedings is to provide a platform for the ANC to once again attack the official Opposition, and resist parliamentary oversight and accountability.

I must add, it is also extraordinary that this House found time to debate this motion today. Parliament is far too busy to set aside time to debate the fact that hundreds of thousands of South Africans are needlessly and avoidably contracting, and dying from, Aids because of the asinine policies of the Minister of Health. When an observer mission travels to witness the country’s rigged election, Parliament is too busy to debate its report. But it is not too busy to spend time debating the fact that one of its members refused to be gagged and does the job that the electorate sent him here to do. [Interjections.]

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: [Inaudible.]

Mr M J ELLIS: Please keep quiet, Mr Goniwe, you are making a terrible noise here. In conclusion, I want to say that I move:

To omit all the words after “That’’ and to substitute:

the House declines to take notice of the actions of the Hon D H M Gibson outside the National Assembly on the grounds that such actions are not the business of the House, and to express an opinion on them is impertinence.

I thank you very much, indeed. [Applause.]

Mr J H VAN DER MERWE: Chairperson, we, in the IFP, do not really want to become involved in a debate which has clearly been personalised. The ANC is emotionally upset and is gunning for the throat of one Douglas Gibson, MP. We prefer to look at the facts unemotionally and stripped of the hysterics demonstrated by the ANC speaker and by the contents of their emotion. From what Mr Gibson has explained, the following appears to be his version: Having read various newspaper articles on President Mbeki’s new house, he went to have a look at it. He did not enter the premises. He had read that over R20 million is being spent on the house. He was concerned that the taxpayer’s money was possibly being used inappropriately. He was exercising a form of parliamentary oversight. This is the version by Mr Gibson.

There is no acceptable evidence to challenge Mr Gibson’s version. Therefore we cannot find him guilty of the ANC’s emotional charges against him. Under these circumstances, we will not support the ANC motion. [Applause.]

Ms S N SIGCAU: Chairperson, the manner in which the President’s retirement home became the subject of widespread media coverage has already been discussed in this Chamber. Whilst the hon Gibson denies that he spearheaded the invasion of the first family’s privacy, his tightrope walk, just barely within the letter of the law, was undeniably in utter contravention of the spirit of the law. In the process, the Mbeki’s privacy was unnecessarily violated. In the resulting fallout, we have called on the hon member to acknowledge that he stepped over the line and apologise. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mrs P DE LILLE: Chairperson, I really don’t know why we’ve this motion before the House. I think I will just read a quote this afternoon and maybe ask hon Douglas Gibson to take the advice of a very prominent and well- loved South African, Helen Suzman. She said: “Please apologise”.

I think that is the best advice the DA can get, unless Helen Suzman is from a different group or a different clique in the DA. I think we have to respect her view and I agree with Helen Suzman that Douglas Gibson must apologise. Thank you. [Applause.] [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Order please, members! Order! Hon member at the podium, don’t speak before everybody has quietened down, please. It is impossible to hear.

Mr H P MALULEKA: Thank you, Chairperson. Our Constitution confers on the President the authority to uphold, defend and respect the Constitution as the supreme law of the Republic, and further, to promote the unity of our nation and that which will advance the Republic. All patriotic South Africans who owe allegiance to our Constitution are to relate to the President, who is head of state and of our country, with the respect that his office deserves.

The deplorable action displayed by the DA and Mr Gibson in particular, by leading a group of journalists to the private property of President Mbeki must be condemned by all our people. Many have already done so. The DA went on a wild, senseless, meaningless and absurd campaign to try and bring into question the integrity of our President.

You still have to tell us why you did this, Mr Gibson. You want to make us believe that you were misled by Noseweek and you even blamed the journalists that you invited to advance your despicable campaign. You even tried to sell the DA campaign by mentioning Mrs Helen Suzman’s name. Let me quote what she said in response to your wild claim. She said:

The DA made another mistake. When the Chief Whip Douglas Gibson went to inspect President Mbeki’s retirement home, this has reduced their claim to respect as an opposition party. Gibson should first have exhausted every avenue of parliamentary procedure to obtain the information he sought. He has also deliberately misinterpreted my advice to MPs, that is, to see for themselves. He read a report … [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Order please! [Interjections.] Order please!

Mr H P MALULEKA: I am quoting Mrs Helen Suzman here:

He read a report to Parliament in which he stated that Helen Suzman taught “to go and look for yourself”. “This I did,” said Gibson. He knows perfectly well that the advice I still give to MPs refers to the inspection of conditions in public places and not to inspect private property.

You said you went there because the people wanted to know. I listened to the radio very carefully when you made this statement. I agree with you that the people want to know. They want to know what you were doing snooping around President Mbeki’s house. [Laughter.] They want to know what your real motive was for doing so. The people want to know why you are still in a Parliament in which you have lost confidence. The people want to know when you will be resigning. This is the people’s motion. It is not what I am saying. Forgiveness is our policy and repentance goes with absolution. Do the honourable thing, Mr Gibson: apologise to the President and this House. The ANC supports this motion. [Applause.]

Dr C P MULDER: Chairperson, approximately a week ago at this podium I predicted that during this process of discussing these four motions, a certain process will take place. I predicted that the ANC would use their majority to force their amendments through Parliament and I predicted that, in the end, they will use their majority to censure Mr Gibson. Obviously, I was a 100% correct. That is exactly what happened.

During the process in the ANC’s defence of the hon Speaker, you quoted from the Constitution in your amendment. I take it that you take the Constitution seriously. [Interjections.] You take it seriously? Fine, now let me quote to you. You used the following words:

Everyone has the right to freedom of association and also the right to freedom of conscience, religion, thought, belief and opinion.

Do you think that Mr Gibson is also entitled to that? He is entitled to that. So he exercised exactly that and now you want to misuse your majority to censure him for exactly that. You are not doing Parliament a favour. You are doing Parliament a disfavour. You are moving back. You are making one mistake and then another mistake. Thank you. [Applause.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon Mulder, I was going to extend your speaking time on account of the noise, but you have passed up that opportunity. [Interjections.] Will you please allow people to be heard! Please, I am asking you very nicely.

Rre B E PULE: Ke a leboga, Modulasetilo. Kemo ya UCDP e tlhamaletse, e tlhalositswe fa maloba ka di 5 gore ntlha e, ga se ntlha e e siameng. Ke ntlha ya ntlha e ke batlang go e baya.

Motho fa o reeditse fa go buiwa o ipotsa gore boramolao a fa ba le kwa dikgotlatshekelo ba bua se, fa batla mo palamenteng ba bua se sengwe ka gore selo se se leng mo pepeneneng ke gore motlotlegi Gibson o ne a na le maikaelelo a go tsena mo tlong. Ee, ga a tsena mme o kganetswe go tsena.

Jaanong ke tlhola ke utlwa boramolao ba otlhaela batho gore ba ne ba na le maikaelelo a go dira selo. Jaanong fa rona re le UCDP re bona gore ka maikaelelo a, a ga motlotlegi Gibson a ikope maitshwarelo ka gore gona o ne a ya go tsena. Ke gore ke ntlha e rona re e bayang fa gore maikaelelo a gagwe e ne e le go tsena. Ke a leboga. Ke a le boga … (Translation of Setswana speech follows.)

[Mr B E PULE: Thank you Chairperson. The position of the UCDP on this issue was made known and clear on the 5th,that it was not the right thing to do. This is the first point I would like to make.

Following the discussion, I doubt whether the legal representatives say this when they are in court or they decide to come and say something different here in parliament. It is clear that hon Gibson had an intention to enter the house although he was denied access.

I know that the intention to commit an offence is punishable by law. Against this background, we, as UCDP, believe that hon Gibson should apologise because we are convinced that he was eventually going to enter the house. This is our position on the matter. Thank you.]

Mr R B BHOOLA: Chairperson, the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, Chapter 5, section 87, states: When elected President, a person … must assume office by swearing or affirming faithfulness to the Republic and obedience to the Constitution …

The Constitution further instructs that a system of governance be established that shall inculcate transparency in all processes and shall account to the public for its actions. When becoming a statesperson, one relinquishes one’s rights to privacy and becomes answerable to all our actions, as the people. We believe that the President has conformed to this in every respect and during budget debates, and has correctly related how the taxpayer’s monies are utilised for security purposes. As state policy, security has clearly been provided to all Presidents and former Prime Ministers of South Africa.

While the MF does not label hon Gibson as a racist, we do label him as an opportunist, accusatory and saddled with intent to discredit our current government and thus mislead the people in order to influence the DA.

It can easily be equated to Satan’s vindictive attempts in misleading people to the fire of hell. Hon Gibson might not have the horns, but he certainly has the knack. The MF will support the motion. [Time expired.][Applause.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon Bhoola! [Interjections.] Order please! I would like to rule on the statement by the hon Bhoola that I find it completely out of order. I would like him to withdraw it. [Interjections.]

Mr R B BHOOLA: Chairperson, may I kindly know what the statement was? [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): It was the reference made to Mr Gibson. I am quite sure that since you made it, you would know what it was. [Interjections.]

Mr R B BHOOLA: Chairperson, I refuse to withdraw it. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon Bhoola, I will ask you, once again, to withdraw it. [Interjections.]

Mr R B BHOOLA: I still repeat that I refuse to withdraw it.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Then I will request you to leave the Chamber. [Interjections.]

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam, I am not trying to talk about your ruling. I think it is very clear that you cannot tell this member what to withdraw. I would suggest that you look at the Hansard and give a ruling on the matter.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon Chief Whip, it is my decision that the member shall withdraw from this Chamber, and I stand by it. And I will not repeat what he said. He is well aware. That matter has been dealt with.

Ms S RAJBALLY: Madam Chair, on a point of order …

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon Rajbally, please take your seat while I deal with Mr Bhoola. Mr Bhoola, you have been asked to withdraw. Please do so. Do withdraw from the Chamber.

Mr R B BHOOLA: I will do so, and it is hon Bhoola, Chairperson.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon Bhoola, please leave this Chamber. Thank you. [Applause.]

When Mr Bhoola indicated that he was not prepared to withdraw the remarks, having disregarded the authority of the Chair, he was asked to leave the Chamber for the remainder of the day’s sitting. The member thereupon withdrew.

Mr The DEPUTY MINISTER OF EDUCATION: On a point of order, Madam Chairperson: I think in terms of the Rules, before you request a member to withdraw any statement, the Chair has a responsibility and duty to draw the attention of that member to the words that were uttered. I submit, with the greatest of respect.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon Surty, I accept the way in which you are raising a point of order. However, I find it difficult to repeat the words that were used and which I asked to be withdrawn. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Are you not permitting me to address you fully on this matter, hon Chair?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): No, hon Surty. The matter has been dealt with. I am not going to change my ruling. I will, in courtesy to the House, ask that the Table brings it back to the House. My decision is firm.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I am not trying to interfere with the decision. What I am saying is that this House should have the benefit of understanding why a member has been requested to leave. We cannot have the understanding unless we are aware of the reasons and the rationale behind the Chair’s decision. Is it informed by a series of words, a word, ten words – I don’t know. I think, as an accountable and democratic Parliament, we are entitled to that information.

Mr W P DOMAN: Madam Chair, may I also address you on that point: It is not necessary for the Chair to point out to a member what he or she had said. In the past the former Speaker also asked a member and if that member was prepared to withdraw, because he or she knew what was said and then withdrew. I call on you, Chair, not to allow a further discussion on this matter and that all members respect your ruling.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Madam Chair, with the greatest of respect, if I were to say that I did not agree with the devilish behaviour of an hon member, am I going to be asked to leave?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon Surty, you are now crossing some boundaries which you very well know that you should not be crossing. Hon members, I understand your concern. I will ask the Table to find a way to address it. [Interjections.] I will not put up with this noise. I will not put up with this noise. I have ruled. [Interjections.] I am warning now, that if you don’t respect the Chair I will adjourn the proceedings. If you do not respect the Chair, I am adjourning the proceedings. [Interjections.]

The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: What a disgraceful mob!

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, I think every ANC speaker who has stood up on a point of order has made it very clear that we respect your ruling. However, we would request that you do as you have indicated you would, that is to ask the Table to look into this matter and that we revert to it. All of us are concerned that a precedent is being set here that might be a bit difficult for us to live with. We will abide by the ruling on the basis that the Table is being asked to look into the matter.

Ms S RAJBALLY: Madam Chair, on a point of order: I do agree with the Deputy Chief Whip. The hon Bhoola went to the podium and spoke a lot of words. We want to know exactly what is the word that he is supposed to withdraw. And I don’t think it is a correct ruling.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): For the last time now, members: I have closed this matter. I have said that, as the Deputy Chief Whip indicated, I will ask the Table to bring his wording to you. I did not rule in a fit of pique. I ruled because I thought he was out of order. And I am staying with that ruling. I am not going to have you shout me down on that ruling. I find it completely unacceptable that you behave in this way - absolutely unacceptable.

I have already said that I would ask the Table to bring the ruling back and we will then reconsider it. My view is that I have ruled on this matter. I am not withdrawing it. I am not changing it and I am not recognising anybody else on this matter. It is now closed.

Ms S RAJBALLY: Madam Chair, I have a democratic right. Your thought, the thought, is a bad thought. The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): I beg your pardon? Hon Rajbally, I will pretend that I didn’t hear you. Is that a new point of order? Can we then proceed with the debate? [Interjections.] Hon Green?

An HON MEMBER: Madam Chair, the hon Tony Leon called this side of the House a “disgraceful mob”. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon Leon, if you said “disgraceful mob”, will you please withdraw that?

The LEADER OF THE OPPOSITION: I will.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Thank you. Please proceed, hon Green.

Mr L M GREEN: Chairperson, hon members, I work with the hon Gibson on the Chief Whips’ Forum and I regard him as a dedicated and hard-working MP. But, I believe that the hon Helen Suzman, who is apparently one of the senior leaders and also advisers of the DA, and formerly the DP, is correct in her advice as a very senior person in saying that it is not difficult to apologise and to withdraw.

I think what the hon Gibson should do in this regard is to indicate that he has made a mistake - we all do; we are all fallible; we do make mistakes – and to say that he is sorry for doing what he has done. Maybe it was not his intention, but he should apologise to the President and the first lady for the invasion of their right to the privacy of their home, being their private domain. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon members, please! Order!

Mr L M GREEN: And so, I think, that is what he should do; and then allow us to go home. Thank you, Chair. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Thank you very much, Deputy Chairperson.

Sekela-Sihlalo, ndifuna ukuba ndikhe ndiyithethe ngesintu le nto, ndithethe isiXhosa. Ndiyanicela ke ukuba nisebenzise ezi zinto zokuphulaphula. Umba esiwuphetheyo apha ubaluleke kakhulu,. Xa ndibhekisa kumntakwethu lo, obekekileyo uGibson , kunyanzelekile ukuba sibe ngumzekelo olungileyo. Umzekelo bantu bakuthi, ukuba kuma iqela lesizwe, amabhokobhoko, phaya kulindeleke ukuba silixhase. Endlwini yam, umzekelo: (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)

[Deputy Chairperson, I want to express this in isiXhosa. I would like you to use your headphones for the interpretation. What we are discussing here is very important and to you, hon Gibson, I want to say we must set a good example. For example, hon members, when the amabhokobhoko team is playing, we are expected to support them. In my house …]

… my son is only 10 years old. He supports the All Blacks. And, when I ask him: “Why do you support the All Blacks?” his own view is that the white people of this country have not changed. That is his own view. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Order please, members! Order!

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: The second point is this: When the flag of this country rises, it must leave a lump in our throats for all of us. That is an act of patriotism.

We may come from different political parties and different political persuasions, but once this House votes for the President of the country, he becomes our own President - for all of us.

UMnu Gibson xa ndijonge le nto ayenzileyo, ukuba umbuza ukuba uhlonela bani na phakathi koMnu Bush noMongameli Thabo Mbeki, uthi makachaze inyani emsulwa, simbuze ukuba uhlonela bani na phakathi koMnu Thabo Mbeki kunye neNkulumbuso yaseBrithane, futhi sicele ukuba asixelele inyani, asinakufumana le mpendulo siyilindeleyo. Akukho namnye apha phakathi kwethu ozicingela ukuba mkhulu kwaye ubaluluke kangangendlela yokuba xa enokwenza impazamo enje akangeluceli uxolo kuMongameli nosapho lwakhe.

Benze le ngxaki ke ukuba nisakhumbula kakuhle sishiywa nguqabane uDumisane Makhanye. Kungekadluli neentsuku simfihlile, kwathethwa izinto ezimdaka ngaye kule Ndlu. Elo lungu lanyanzeleka ukuba licele uxolo. Ukuze ubaqonde ukuba banjani kuthi bantu bamnyama, amava ethu kweli lizwe ngala, akunaze uwasuse. Sibona ukuba ngenxa yebala lethu sijongwe njengabarhwaphilizi namanemene, amaxoki, kunye namasela, ungekebi nokuba. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)

[If one can ask hon Gibson whom he respects more between President Bush and President Thabo Mbeki and between President Thabo Mbeki and the Prime Minister of Britain, and ask for an honest reply, one will not get the answer one expects. There is no one amongst us who thinks that he is so important that he cannot apologise to the President and his family when he has made a mistake.

History is repeating itself here, as you will remember the case of the late comrade Dumisani Makhaye. In this House people said appalling things about him within few days of his burial. The member concerned had to apologise. When one thinks of their bad behaviour towards us, and our experiences, one realises that they will never change. Because of our colour they see us as corrupt, hypocrites, liars and thieves, regardless of whether you have stolen something or not.]

You are presumed to be corrupt because umnyama [you are a black person]. The onus is on you to prove the contrary. We are a kind of society – we can’t run away from this – that emerges from a particular past, and it calls for a particular approach, particularly one of sensitivity. This is because you have this thing that you do all the time: you pre-empt things and say, “Yes, the ANC is going to raise the racist card again,” and then you do exactly racist things. [Interjections.] What is racist about this?

As a very vocal and vociferous opposition, why have you not gone to check what taxpayer’s money is being spent to uphold former president P W Botha. [Interjections.] Why? Where? [Interjections.] No, we are not speaking about questions. [Interjections.] Why don’t you go to the Wilderness? This is not about questions. [Interjections.] Did you go where, and take the papers? No, man. No, please! [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon members, please!

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: What has emerged properly from this debate is what we suspected right from the beginning: that Mr Gibson did this with the full knowledge and support of the DA. Yet, in the papers, he took flak as an individual. That shows exactly what kind of a party that is, that cannot humble itself … The nation is very angry about this. [Interjections.] Why would you not do the simple thing, humble yourself and ask for forgiveness? [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Order please! Order please, members! The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Now … [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon Chief Whip, one moment please. Please, hon members!

UMBHEXESHI OYINTLOKO WEQELA ELIKWISININZI: UMnu Gibson, asikwazi ukumxolela ngoba njengeqhaji, uyabona abantu abafana noGoebbels weNazism, siyayazi ukuba wayesuka kuHitler. Siyayazi ukuba uthunywe yi-DA, wena ngokuqava, waba liqhaji, uzinikezele ngaphezu kwabanye, edelela. Siyanibona apha kule Ndlu ukuba xa nithetha naBaphathiswa balo rhulumente nalatha ngeminwe. Nibonisa isizwe ukuba aba bantu ababalulekanga. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)

[The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: We cannot forgive hon Gibson, because, as a courageous man like Goebbels of the Nazis, who we know was sent by Hitler, he was conveying the DA’s message, because he is more fearless and committed than any other member in the party, with an undermining attitude. We have noticed that when you speak in this House, you speak with disrespect about the Ministers. You demonstrate to the whole nation that these people are insignificant.] And, by an accident of history, you do so in your white skins. You do so in your white skins. You are communicating a message out there to the white people in this country, who were indoctrinated for years - indoctrination which even some of you have not outgrown. You are communicating a particular message that it is correct to disrespect African people. [Interjections.] Well, we would not expect any less, because that is what I am saying. If he can come to this podium and apologise to the President, to his family, to the nation, he won’t belittle himself in any way.

It’s incorrect, Dr Mulder, to quote the Constitution selectively. That’s not correct. Whilst the Constitution guarantees those rights, it does not give you any licence to undermine other people’s rights. You fought, when we were discussing the Constitution, for property rights. This was not only, I should say, to deny the previously disadvantaged and excluded people in this country access to having property; you were saying that private property must be respected. You cannot go any time, unannounced, without asking for any permission, to someone else’s property, let alone the kind of things you were exposing.

Let’s go to the merits of the question. You ask me how much I have used to secure my house. Then, the moment I give you the answer and say that I have spent R20 000, then I’ve made my house completely insecure. This is because it would take even a half-trained security mind to estimate what gadgets are in the security system of the house. To do that to a house of the President of your own country, being a Member of Parliament, and then to argue here that it is not correct to bring it to the House because it is not business of the House … Yet when you speak, you say you are doing parliamentary oversight. Since when is parliamentary oversight not the business of the House? Then, on whose behalf are you doing oversight? This is a simple matter.

I am very disappointed, Mr Van der Merwe. I am very disappointed, because your leader, when we were doing the state of the nation address here, came and upheld the dignity and the decorum of the Presidency. [Interjections.] Now when Mr Gibson does this thing that is clearly hurtful, not only to the nation but also to the ANC, you then come here and play devil’s advocate - the term; not directed at a person. [Interjections.]

Siyacela ke torhwana ukuba le ndoda mayicele uxolo, kwaye ukuba ayifuni siza kumisa ikomiti. Uyabona ngoku asoze sizinyamezele izinto ezingacacanga. Kambe abantu bazisa izinto ezingacacanga kule Ndlu, nisigrogrise, nifune ukusibetha nisibophelele nithi … (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)

[We ask this man to apologise and if he does not, we will set up a committee in this regard. We will never tolerate unbecoming behaviour. However, people carry on displaying unbecoming behaviour in this House and threaten us and accuse us, saying …]

… again, the ANC is going to use its majority. No, we are not going to be threatened and constrained by that. We look at the value of the things that are placed here; we look at the actions. And, be assured, we will vote according to what is correct.

What the hon Gibson did, he knows in his heart of hearts, was incorrect. It was bad judgment and was on the spur of the moment. [Interjections.] Of course, actually, in this country, we can tell without fear of contradiction that there is no opposition here. The opposition here – the practical opposition in this country – is the media. That’s why he needs the media. Everytime they’ll do anything to get a sound bite in the media; they’ll do anything to draw the attention of TV cameras. But this time around, I think you have overstepped the boundaries. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

Question put: That the amendment moved by Mr M J Ellis be agreed to.

Division demanded.

The House divided:

AYES - 31: Bhengu, M J; Blanché, J P I; Cele, M A; Coetzee, R; Davidson, I O; Doman, W P; Dreyer, A M; Ellis, M J; Gibson, D H M; Jankielsohn, R; King, R J; Kohler-Barnard, D; Labuschagne, L B; Leon, A J; Minnie, K J; Morgan, G R; Rabinowitz, R; Sayedali-Shah, M R; Schmidt, H C; Seaton, S A; Selfe, J; Semple, J A; Sibuyana, M W; Smuts, M; Steyn, A C; Swathe, M M; Trent, E W; Van der Merwe, J H; Van der Walt, D; Vos, S C; Waters, M.

NOES - 153: Abram, S; Anthony, T G; Arendse, J D; Asiya, S E; Asmal, A K; Beukman, F; Bhamjee, Y S; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, P; Bloem, D V; Bonhomme, T J; Botha, N G W; Burgess, C V; Chikunga, L S; Combrinck, J J; Cwele, S C; Dambuza, B N; Daniels, P; Dikgacwi, M M; Dithebe, S L; Doidge, G Q M; Fihla, N B; Frolick, C T; Gaum, A H; Gigaba, K M N; Goniwe, M T; Green, L M; Gumede, D M; Hendrickse, P A C; Hogan, B A; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Kalako, M U; Kekana, C D; Khoarai, L P; Khumalo, K K; Khumalo, K M; Khunou, N P; Komphela, B M; Koornhof, G W; Kotwal, Z; Landers, L T; Lekgetho, G; Lekgoro, M M S; Lishivha, T E; Louw, S K; Luthuli, A N; Maake, J J; Mabe, L L; Mabena, D C; Madasa, Z L; Madella, A F; Maduma, L D; Magau, K R; Magubane, N E ; Mahlaba, T L; Mahlangu-Nkabinde, G L; Mahlawe, N M; Mahote, S; Maja, S J; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleka, H P; Maluleke, D K; Martins, B A D; Mashangoane, P R; Mashiane, L M; Mashigo, R J; Masutha, T M; Mathibela, N F; Matlala, M H; Matsemela, M L; Mbili, M E; Mbombo, N D; Meruti, M V; Mgabadeli, H C; Mkhize, Z S; Mkongi, B M; Mnguni, B A; Mnyandu, B J; Moatshe, M S; Modisenyane, L J; Mogale, O M; Mogase, I D; Mohamed, I J; Mohlaloga, M R; Molefe, C T; Moloto, K A; Montsitsi, S D; Morobi, D M; Mosala, B G; Moss, M I; Mshudulu, S A; Mthembu, B; Mthethwa, E N; Mtshali, E; Mzondeki, M J G; Nawa, Z N; Ndzanga, R A; Nel, A C; Nene, M J ; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngculu, L V J; Ngele, N J; Ngwenya, W; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njikelana, S J ; Njobe, M A A; Nkabinde, N C; Nogumla, R Z; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, M M; Ntuli, R S; Nxumalo, M D; Nxumalo, S N ; Nyambi, A J; Nzimande, L P M; Olifant, D A A; Phadagi, M G; Phungula, J P; Pieterse, R D; Rajbally, S ; Ramodibe, D M; Ramotsamai, C P M; Rasmeni, S M; Rwexana, S P; Saloojee, E; Schippers, J; Schneemann, G D; Seadimo, M D; Sefularo, M; Sibanyoni, J B; Siboza, S ; Sigcau , S N; Sithole, D J; Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Sotyu, M M; Surty, M E ; Thabethe, E; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; Tsenoli, S L; Tshivhase, T J; Tshwete, P; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, S C ; Van Wyk, A.

ABSTAIN - 4: Greyling, L W; Mulder, C P; Spies, W D; Vezi, T E.

Question not agreed to.

Amendment accordingly negatived.

Question put: That the motion moved by the Chief Whip of the Majority Party be agreed to.

Division demanded.

The House divided:

AYES - 156: Abram, S; Anthony, T G; Arendse, J D; Asiya, S E; Asmal, A K; Beukman, F; Bhamjee, Y S; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, P; Bloem, D V; Bonhomme, T J; Botha, N G W; Burgess, C V; Cachalia, I M; Cele, M A; Chikunga, L S; Combrinck, J J; Cwele, S C; Dambuza, B N; Daniels, P; Dikgacwi, M M; Dithebe, S L; Doidge, G Q M; Fihla, N B; Frolick, C T; Gaum, A H; Gigaba, K M N; Goniwe, M T; Green, L M; Gumede, D M; Hendrickse, P A C; Hogan, B A; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, M; Kalako, M U; Kekana, C D; Khoarai, L P; Khumalo, K K; Khumalo, K M; Khunou, N P; Komphela, B M; Koornhof, G W; Kotwal, Z; Landers, L T; Lekgetho, G; Lekgoro, M M S; Lishivha, T E; Louw, S K; Luthuli, A N; Maake, J J; Mabe, L L; Mabena, D C; Madasa, Z L; Madella, A F; Maduma, L D; Magau, K R; Magubane, N E ; Mahlaba, T L; Mahlangu-Nkabinde, G L; Mahlawe, N M; Mahote, S; Maja, S J; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleka, H P; Maluleke, D K; Martins, B A D; Mashangoane, P R; Mashiane, L M; Mashigo, R J; Masutha, T M; Mathibela, N F; Matlala, M H; Matsemela, M L; Mbili, M E; Mbombo, N D; Meruti, M V; Mgabadeli, H C; Mkhize, Z S; Mkongi, B M; Mnguni, B A; Mnyandu, B J; Moatshe, M S; Modisenyane, L J; Mogale, O M; Mogase, I D; Mohamed, I J; Mohlaloga, M R; Molefe, C T; Moloto, K A; Montsitsi, S D; Morobi, D M; Mosala, B G; Moss, M I; Motubatse-Hounkpatin, S D; Mshudulu, S A; Mthembu, B; Mthethwa, E N; Mtshali, E; Mzondeki, M J G; Nawa, Z N; Ndzanga, R A; Nel, A C; Nene, M J ; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E; Ngcengwane, N D; Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngculu, L V J; Ngele, N J; Ngwenya, W; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njikelana, S J ; Njobe, M A A; Nkabinde, N C; Nogumla, R Z; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, M M; Ntuli, R S; Ntuli, S B; Nxumalo, M D; Nxumalo, S N ; Nyambi, A J; Nzimande, L P M; Olifant, D A A; Phungula, J P; Pieterse, R D; Rajbally, S ; Ramodibe, D M; Ramotsamai, C P M; Rasmeni, S M; Rwexana, S P; Saloojee, E; Schippers, J; Schneemann, G D; Seadimo, M D; Sefularo, M; Sibanyoni, J B; Siboza, S ; Sigcau , S N; Sithole, D J; Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Sotyu, M M; Surty, M E ; Thabethe, E; Tinto, B; Tolo, L J; Tsenoli, S L; Tshivhase, T J; Tshwete, P; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, S C ; Van Wyk, A.

NOES - 32: Bhengu, M J; Blanché, J P I; Coetzee, R; Davidson, I O; Doman, W P; Dreyer, A M; Ellis, M J; Gibson, D H M; Jankielsohn, R; King, R J; Kohler-Barnard, D; Labuschagne, L B; Leon, A J; Minnie, K J; Morgan, G R; Mulder, C P; Rabinowitz, R; Sayedali-Shah, M R; Schmidt, H C; Seaton, S A; Selfe, J; Semple, J A; Sibuyana, M W; Smuts, M; Spies, W D; Steyn, A C; Swathe, M M; Trent, E W; Van der Merwe, J H; Van der Walt, D; Vos, S C; Waters, M.

ABSTAIN - 1: Greyling, L W.

Question agreed to.

Motion accordingly agreed to.

  MOTION OF THE CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY ON THE CONDUCT OF
          MR D H M GIBSON, THE CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION

                             (Statement)

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon members, Mr Gibson has requested an opportunity to make a statement. [Interjections.] I am not asking for your permission. The Speaker has indicated that he should be granted that opportunity, and I now grant Mr Gibson an opportunity to make the statement.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: For clarity, Madam, for how long - because we have been speaking according to timeframes here? How much time has he been granted?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Three minutes will be granted to Mr Gibson. Three minutes.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam, I would like to thank you for affording me this opportunity. There are three points I want to make. The first one is to tell the House about my experience 28 years ago, when I was leader of the opposition in the old Transvaal provincial council. Mr P W Botha had just become Prime Minister, and Mr John Vorster was the nonpolitical State President. The provincial council customarily passed an unopposed motion of loyal greeting to the State President. When the government moved the motion, I stood up and objected to it on the grounds that the State President had not come clean on the Information Scandal. I was told that day that South Africa would never forgive me for my disrespect for the State President, John Vorster. It is amazing that we haven’t changed very much since 1978. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Order! Order, please!

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: The second point is to ask – and this is really an appeal I want to make to hon members of this House on all sides – whether it isn’t time that we moved on from the sickness of racism, which is the inheritance that we have in this House. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon members!

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: This is an inheritance we have from a very unhappy past. It is time we started accepting each other as human beings, as South Africans and as Africans. I am a South African, and I am an African. We must stop ascribing and explaining every action … [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon members, if you continue to interrupt in this fashion, I shall give Mr Gibson many more minutes. [Interjections.]

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: So, the appeal that I would like to make is that people should stop pointing fingers at each other about race, and that we stop using race as an excuse and an explanation for everything.

The third thing is that this House has asked me to apologise. I think I owe you an answer. Whether you like what the DA does or like what I do is your business. You can like it or dislike it, as you wish. Governments around the world always want to prescribe to the opposition how they should operate. The DA is not going to apologise for doing its job, and that is the job that the voters sent us to Parliament to do, that is to hold the government to account. I thank you. [Applause.]

The House adjourned at 19:01. _______

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces The Speaker and the Chairperson

1. Classification of Bills by Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM)

(1)     The JTM on 18 September 2006 in terms of Joint Rule 160(3),
    classified the following Bills as section 75 Bills:

    (a)      Measurement Units and Measurement Standards Bill [B 21 –
         2006] (National Assembly – sec 75).


    (b)      Postal Services Amendment Bill [B 22 – 2006] (National
         Assembly – sec 75).


(2)    The JTM on 18 September 2006 in terms of Joint Rule 160(4),
    classified the following Bills as section 76 Bills:


    (a)      Electricity Regulation Amendment Bill [B 20 – 2006]
         (National Assembly – sec 76).

(3)    The JTM on 18 September 2006 in terms of Joint Rule 160(4),
    classified the Children’s Amendment Bill [B 19 – 2006], introduced
    in the National Council of Provinces, as a section 76 Bill and as a
    Bill falling within the ambit of section 18(1)(a) of the
    Traditional Leadership and Governance Framework Act, 2003 (Act No
    41 of 2003).

National Assembly

The Speaker

1. Designation of Acting Speaker and Acting Deputy Speaker

 DESIGNATION OF ACTING SPEAKER AND DEPUTY SPEAKER

As I will be absent from Parliament during the period 21 September to 1
October 2006, in accordance with the resolution adopted by the House on
24 June 2004, I designate Deputy Speaker G L Mahlangu-Nkabinde to act
as Speaker and House Chairperson Mr G Q M Doidge to act as Deputy
Speaker for this period.




Baleka Mbete, MP

Speaker

20 September 2006

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs

 a) Report and Financial Statements of the Ncera Farms (Pty) Ltd for
    2005-2006, including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the
    Financial Statements for 2005-2006.


 b) Report and Financial Statements of the Agricultural Research
    Council (ARC) for 2005-2006, including the Report of the Auditor-
    General on the Financial Statements for 2005-2006 [RP 168-2006].


 c) Report and Financial Statements of Onderstepoort Biological
    Products Limited for 2005-2006, including the Report of the
    Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements for 2005-2006.


 d) Report and Financial Statements of the National Agricultural
    Marketing Council (NAMC) for 2005-2006, including the Report of the
    Auditor-General on the Financial Statements for 2005-2006 [RP 1-
    2006].

1. The Minister of Science and Technology

 a) Report and Financial Statements of the South African Council for
    Natural Scientific Professions for 2005-2006, including the Report
    of the Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements for 2005-
    2006.

National Assembly

1. The Speaker

(a)     Request from the Minister of Communications for approval by the
    National Assembly of the following candidates recommended for
    appointment to the Independent Communications Authority of South
    Africa (Icasa) in terms of section 7 of the Independent
    Communications Authority of South Africa Act, 2000 (Act No 13 of
    2000), as amended:


         Dr A J Barendse, Ms M Mohlala, Mr R Nkuna, Ms B Ntombela and
         Prof J C W van Rooyen.
        Referred to the Portfolio Committee on Communications for
     consideration and report.