WEDNESDAY, 16 MAY 2007 __

                PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
                                ____

The House met at 14:04.

House Chairperson Ms C-S Botha took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.

                          NOTICES OF MOTION

Dr P J RABIE: Madam Chairperson, I hereby give notice that I intend moving the following motion:

That this House –

(1) notes that according to the recently released South African Unemployment Report, increasing numbers of South Africans are opting for self-employment as a means to survive; and

(2) resolves to debate the importance of leveraging informal sector growth for the purpose of effecting job creation. Thank you.

Mr C M LOWE: Madam Chairperson, I hereby give notice that I intend moving the following motion:

That this House resolves to debate the role of the private sector in skills development and the inappropriateness of the Seta system as a response to our skills development needs.

Thank you.

ACCOMMODATION FOR PATIENTS FROM OUTLYING AREAS ATTENDING LIVINGSTONE
                              HOSPITAL

                        (Member’s Statement)

Mnr C T FROLICK (ANC): Voorsitter, die Livingstone-hospitaal in my kiesafdeling is een van drie hospitale wat deel vorm van die Port Elizabeth- hospitaalkompleks. Saam met die Provinsiale Hospitaal en die Dora Nginza- hospitaal lewer die kompleks gesondheidsdienste aan duisende inwoners van die Nelson Mandela-metropool.

Verlede jaar het my kiesafdelingskantoor bewus geraak van ’n aantal pasiënte afkomstig uit landelike gebiede buite die metro, wat ’n dag voor die tyd na die hospitaal reis vir behandeling die volgende dag. Die rede hiervoor is dat vervoer uit die landelike gebiede skaars en onbetroubaar is. Die gevolg is dat tientalle siek, kranklike pasiënte snags sonder heenkome is en die rusbanke of die vloer in die hospitaal gebruik om op te slaap.

’n Gesamentlike projek deur die bestuur van die hospitaal, 12 kerke van die United Congregational Church, die Syringa Huis vir Bejaardes en my kantoor het daartoe gelei dat alternatiewe oornaggeriewe vir sulke pasiënte geïdentifiseer is.

Met die hulp van vrywilligers het my kantoor verantwoordelikheid aanvaar om 15 kamers by die nabygeleë ouetehuis te herstel, op te knap en te verf. Die kerk, op sy beurt, aanvaar verantwoordelikheid om die kamers van meubels en ander benodigdhede te voorsien. Vrywilligers uit die gemeente hou saans toesig oor die pasiënte en bedien hulle die volgende oggend met ontbyt voordat hulle by die hospitaal gaan aanmeld.

Die fasiliteit is op 10 April 2007 amptelik geopen en het tot dusver oornaggeriewe gebied aan behoeftige mense vanaf plekke soos Sedgefield, die Langkloof, Humansdorp, Paterson, Graaff-Reinet, Addo, Kirkwood, Uitenhage ens. [Tyd verstreke.] (Translation of Afrikaans member’s statement follows.)

[Mr C T FROLICK (ANC): Chairperson, Livingstone Hospital, situated in my constituency, is one of the three hospitals that form part of the Port Elizabeth hospital complex. Together with the Provincial Hospital and the Dora Nginza Hospital, the complex renders health services to thousands from the Nelson Mandela Metropole.

Last year my constituency office became aware of a number of patients from rural areas outside of the metro who start their journey for treatment at the hospital a day before their appointment date, the reason being that transport from the rural areas to the hospital is erratic and unreliable. As a consequence, many sick and frail patients are without shelter for the night and use the benches at the hospital or the floor to sleep on.

A joint project by the management of the hospital, 12 churches from the United Congregational Church, the Syringa Old Age Home and my office has led to the identification of alternate overnight accommodation for such patients.

With the help of volunteers, my office has accepted the responsibility of fixing, restoring and painting 15 rooms at the nearby old age home. The church, on the other hand, has accepted the responsibility of furnishing the rooms and providing whatever is still necessary. Volunteers from the congregation look after these patients at night and serve them with breakfast the next morning before they report to the hospital.

This facility was officially opened on 10 April 2007 and has to date provided overnight accommodation to needy people from as far afield as Sedgefield, the Langkloof, Humansdorp, Paterson, Graaff-Reinet, Addo, Kirkwood, Uitenhage, etc. [Time Expired.]]

      ANTICIPATED SHORTAGE OF COMMUNITY SERVICE DOCTORS IN 2008

                        (Member’s Statement)

Mr G R MORGAN (DA): House Chairperson, the DA calls on the Acting Minister of Health urgently to develop a plan of action for the staffing crisis looming for public hospitals next year. South Africa is heading for a major health catastrophe in 2008, when the number of community service doctors entering the system will be cut to a quarter of the usual intake, because of the effects of a reduction in the length of medical degrees.

Community service doctors are the backbone of many hospitals and, in fact, in some rural hospitals they are the only doctors available. The effect of this will therefore be disastrous. It may well result in many patients dying and will most certainly result in many sick people going untreated. The situation in public hospitals will be compounded by the already high vacancy rates for doctors and nurses in permanent posts.

One of the specific services likely to be affected would be the roll-out of ARVs and the associated testing that accompanies this process. The new strategic plan for HIV/Aids requires a massive staff complement, particularly from doctors. The Department of Health has at this time no contingency plans to help hospitals cope with the impending problem of a reduced number of community service doctors, despite repeated requests to do so by many stakeholders. The department needs to do its job and make a plan. Thank you. [Applause.]

GOVERNMENT’S FAILURE TO INTRODUCE LEGISLATION AGAINST HUMAN TRAFFICKING

                        (Member’s Statement)

Mr J H VAN DER MERWE (IFP): Chairperson, I wish to draw attention to the evils of human trafficking and our government’s embarrassing failure to honour its undertaking to take concrete action in this respect.

Human trafficking is nothing less than a modern form of slavery, and all governments of the world should unite to eradicate every form of human trafficking. Unfortunately, however, South Africa has failed for three years to make good on its undertaking to comply with international minimum standards for the elimination of human trafficking.

Already in 2004, that is three years ago, South Africa ratified the United Nations Convention against Transnational Organised Crime and its anti- trafficking protocol. Government then committed itself to passing comprehensive anti-trafficking legislation and develop national procedures for victim protection. The sad news, unfortunately, is that after three years, South Africa is still failing to honour its obligation. It is indeed very embarrassing for all South Africans to note that South Africa is still on the international watch list for failure to honour its word.

In the public interest and in conclusion, I give notice that unless government introduces comprehensive anti-trafficking legislation within a month, I shall be submitting a Private Member’s Bill to do so.

                     LAND CLAIM IN SIMON’S TOWN

                        (Member’s Statement)

Ms B A HOGAN (ANC): Chairperson, Mr Toefy, an elderly land claimant, has twice been promised settlement on his claim for a prime and beautiful piece of land in Simon’s Town, and twice the Land Commissioner has reneged on the deal. In 1997 the then Minister of Land Affairs signed off on an agreement, but the Department of Public Works stepped in at the last moment to veto that agreement.

In 2003 they promised to give him alternative land in a less prime area in exchange for a larger portion of property. They did not honour that agreement either and only paid him a paltry R40 000 for the smaller portion of the property. The entire property is valued at several million rand today.

Despite the law stipulating that he is entitled to legal assistance, both the Legal Aid Board and the Land Claims Commission have declined to assist. In a letter from the lawyers they say that the Land Claims Commission has rebuffed us and instructed us to seek funds from the Legal Aid Board. The Legal Aid Board has in turn advised us that they have no funds available and that the commission has funds available for these matters, which the Legal Aid Board cannot access or distribute.

Mr Toefy has been dealt a terrible injustice. He has been waiting 12 years for his claim to be addressed. Twice his hopes have been raised and twice they have been dashed. Now he cannot even get the financial help he is entitled to.

I wish to draw the attention of this House to the fact that this is not an isolated incident in Simon’s Town. The famous Luyolo community and many others have faced enormous frustrations and delays. We cannot and may not allow this situation to continue. [Applause.]

            INCLUSION OF KHUTSONG IN NORTH WEST PROVINCE

                        (Member’s Statement)

Ms N C NKABINDE (UDM): Chairperson, the UDM notes with dismay the continuing protest action in Khutsong, where there is widespread unhappiness in the community regarding their summary inclusion in the province of North West. Taxis are boycotting, schools are empty and the streets are filled with scenes of riot police and burning tyres.

While this situation is regrettable, one cannot deny that the community is using the only means at its disposal to communicate with the government that is refusing to listen to them.

The provincial boundary change process occurred without proper consultation. It is not surprising that more than one community felt aggrieved about this drastic change being unilaterally imposed upon them. The height of the irony is that the ruling party will not even reconsider this provincial demarcation, but it is more than happy to discuss internally the scrapping or reduction of the provinces.

What does it say about participatory and transparent democracy when the ruling party would rather talk to itself than the citizens of the country on such vital matters? I thank you. [Applause.]

         SUPER-14 RUGBY FINAL AND STATEMENTS BY MR KOMPHELA


                        (Member’s Statement)

Dr P W A MULDER: Voorsitter, dit is uniek in die geskiedenis van rugby in Suid-Afrika dat twee spanne – die Bulls en die Sharks – in die eindstryd van die Super-14-reeks teen mekaar speel. Die VF Plus wens hulle geluk met hierdie besondere prestasie.

Hierdie prestasie en die oorwinnings oor die Australiese en die Nieu- Seelandse rugbyspanne dui baie sterk daarop dat Suid-Afrika vanjaar ’n baie goeie kans het om, soos in 1995, die Wêreldrugbybekertoernooi te wen.

Die regering se taak ten opsigte van sport is om finansieel te help met die ontwikkeling van sport op alle vlakke. Die VF Plus steun hierdie ontwikkeling sodat alle spelers ’n gelyke kans het om die nasionale span te kan haal.

Internasionale sport en Wêreldbekertoernooie is egter nie die plek vir regeringsinmenging in die keuse van sportspanne of politieke eksperimente nie. Indien die regering die agb Butana Komphela se voorstel steun dat ’n meriete Wêreldbekerrugbyspan se paspoorte ingetrek word ten einde te voorkom dat hulle aan die Wêreldbekertoernooi kan deelneem, sal ek reël dat die Minister van Sport en Ontspanning of die agb mnr Komphela hierdie besluit persoonlik op Loftus voor ’n groot wedstryd en Suid-Afrikaanse rugbyondersteuners, wat met hul betrokenheid en geldelike bydraes rugby aan die gang hou, kan kom verduidelik. Ek dank u. (Translation of Afrikaans member’s statement follows.)

[Mr P W A MULDER: Chairperson, it is unique in the history of South African rugby that two teams – the Bulls and the Sharks – play against each other in the final match of the Super-14 series. The FF Plus congratulates them on this special achievement.

This achievement and the victories over the Australian and the New Zealand rugby teams indicate very strongly that South Africa has a very good chance of winning the Rugby World Cup Tournament, as they did in 1995.

It is the government’s duty towards sport to help financially with the development of sport on all levels. The FF Plus supports this development so that all players will have an equal chance to reach the national team.

However, international sport and the World Cup Tournaments are neither the place for government to interfere with the selection of sports teams nor the place for political experiments. If the government supports the hon Butana Komphela’s proposal that the passports of a Rugby World Cup team, chosen on merit, are withdrawn in order to prevent them from participating in the World Cup Tournament, I will arrange for the Minister of Sport and Recreation, or the hon Komphela, to come and explain this decision in person at Loftus before an important match and in front of South African rugby supporters, who keep rugby going with their involvement and financial contributions. I thank you.]

             VISIT BY SURVIVORS OF SHARPEVILLE MASSACRE

                        (Member’s Statement)

Mr S A MSHUDULU (ANC): Madam Deputy Chairperson, the ANC lowers its banners with pride and comfort in welcoming the survivors of the 1960 Sharpeville massacre in Cape Town. This delegation is led by the executive mayor of Sedibeng District Municipality, Comrade Mlungisi Hlongwane.

To remember the brutality that was committed 47 years ago and to celebrate the human rights we now enjoy, the Sedibeng District Municipality organised this trip of 100 survivors from the Sharpeville massacre. These visitors are men and women who were in the famous march. Some of them were shot and injured and others are family members of those who were killed.

This journey of living history is connecting the Sharpeville survivors with other struggle veterans in the Western Cape. Yesterday they visited Robben Island, where they left a plague acknowledging the links between their struggle and the struggles of many other freedom fighters who were imprisoned there. Tomorrow they will be with us in this Parliament, witnessing the fruits of their struggle for freedom.

The ANC, as the leader of the people, wishes to extend a warm welcome to these heroes. This visit is another step in deepening the link between the commemoration of the Sharpeville massacre and the struggles of so many communities around the country for human rights.

The ANC hopes that Parliament, led by the Speaker, will offer them the hospitality that they so rightly deserve. I thank you. [Applause.]

                 TASIMA CONSORTIUM AWARDED CONTRACT

                        (Member’s Statement)

Mr S B FARROW (DA): Madam Chair, the R408 million eNatis contract was awarded to the Tasima consortium during September 2001. City Press reported that a Tasima employee claimed that the system was implemented without being tested properly with a realistic number of people using it simultaneously, in order to meet deadlines. If this is true, then the Minister and the contractors must both address this issue before the portfolio committee.

Since its implementation almost a month ago, on 12 April, eNatis has been overrun with problems. Newspapers have reported widely on the dysfunctional system – eNatis has now become synonymous with bottlenecks at traffic centres, excessively long queues, traffic centre closures and now rising transaction fees. Despite this very apparent and damaging evidence, no one has owned up to the expensive and frustrating eNatis blunder.

Instead, on 8 May, the Department of Transport communicated that the eNatis system would be up and running on Wednesday, 9 May. National transport spokesperson, Collen Msibi, was reported as saying: “We would like to say that the system is up and running and we would like people to go to their traffic centres tomorrow for transactions on the eNatis system.”.

Despite the department’s apparent attempt at a public relations exercise, the chaotic reality paints a very different picture. The public has a right to know exactly what is going on and who is taking responsibility for rectifying this unacceptable situation. The Minister can no longer continue to smooth-talk the eNatis system’s obvious problems as he has done over the past month. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

            SUCCESSFUL COMMUNITY POLICING IN GARSFONTEIN

                        (Member’s Statement) Dr G W KOORNHOF (ANC): Chairperson, the success in fighting crime effectively is vested in good co-operation between a motivated SA Police Service, a committed local community, vibrant community police forums, well- organised security companies and other important role-players.

Good teamwork between all involved in the fight against crime, combined with a will and dedication to succeed at local level to take our streets back from criminals, contributes to building safer communities.

The Garsfontein Police Station in my constituency area is walking the talk in fighting crime successfully. Just recently, this police station has been equipped with additional personnel and operational equipment as well as vehicles. Even the station building is getting a facelift. Attendance of community police forum meetings is on the increase, and collectively, the community is determined to win the fight against crime.

This is an unfolding success story. There is, however, one element lacking in this success story, namely that the SAPS at this police station is not allowed to share the statistics of declining priority crimes in the area with the community police forum and the motivated, inspired local community. Serious consideration should be given to sharing crime statistics with the local community where successes are achieved. By working together, we will achieve success. I thank you. [Applause.]

           REINCORPORATION OF MATATIELE INTO KWAZULU-NATAL

                        (Member’s Statement)

Mr P F SMITH (IFP): Chairperson, the IFP marched in support of the people of Matatiela on 8 May to express our solidarity with the community that struggled to remain part of KwaZulu-Natal. It is clearly its right, despite the government’s wish to transfer the region to the Eastern Cape. We will continue to express our support in whatever way we can.

The IFP is fully aware that the people of Matatiela are tired of nondelivery and being sidelined. For these reasons, they want to give up their Eastern Cape connection in favour of being reincorporated into KwaZulu-Natal.

The people of Matatiela must be allowed to choose where they want to belong. There is a good case. There are good pragmatic, economic and other reasons for granting them their wish.

The people of Matatiela are trailing behind in receiving basic municipal services. As a result, development in many areas has come to a halt. Furthermore, the lawmakers in Pietermaritzburg are only two hours away, compared to seven hours that it takes to reach Bisho.

The IFP views the fact that the people of Matatiela mobilised against the way the decision was imposed on them from above by way of a petition and by public protest as a triumph of civil society. The IFP appreciated the move by the Constitutional Court which, in response to an appeal from the people of Matatiela, ruled invalid the constitutional amendment and the subsequent legislation that sought to change the boundaries between the two provinces. The IFP cannot support the government’s attempts to redraw provincial boundaries against the will of the residents concerned. We stand by the people of Matatiela. I thank you. [Applause.]

              SANDTON-ROSEBANK ANC CONSTITUENCY OFFICE


                        (Member’s Statement)

Mr H P MALULEKA (ANC): Madam Chair, the ANC Sandton-Rosebank constituency office was opened in November last year to service the Sandton, Rosebank and Alexandra constituency community. It is under the Zone 16 ANC jurisdiction, which is one of the greater Johannesburg regional zones.

As of now, we have a co-ordinator who is responsible for data collection of all nongovernmental organisations, churches, business concerns and all sectors of influence. The construction of the Gautrain is taking place within my ambit and on my doorstep.

Our constituency office is faced with challenges of taking Parliament to the people. It has a challenge of managing development and high-class transformation projects. Marginal communities and sectors have an opportunity of reorganisation and realignment. Any problems faced by the community can be best addressed by members Oupa Monareng, Dan D K Maluleke and Errol Megaman. We are available every Monday from 10:00 to 17:00.

Prominent businesspeople, Ministers and personalities reside within our constituencies. We are therefore grateful to feel welcomed and safe in this community. I thank you. [Applause.]

                  SETAS’ ROLE IN SKILLS DEVELOPMENT

                        (Member’s Statement)

Mr C M LOWE: The dressing down given by Finance Minister Trevor Manuel to labour union leaders on Workers’ Day was little else than a ploy to deflect attention away from government’s failure to deliver on skills development. Minister Manuel’s reported comments attribute the inefficiency of the Sector Education and Training Authority in part to the lack of proper oversight done by Seta boards, on which labour enjoys 50% representation. While the lack of proper oversight is admittedly a problem throughout government, the notion that the inefficiency of the R5 billion Seta bureaucracy will be enhanced by increased intervention from labour unions, whilst the role of the private sector has roundly been ignored by government, is simply ludicrous.

It is vital that the important role of the private sector in skills development and the inappropriateness of the Seta system as a response thereto be recognised by the ANC government. I have therefore placed a motion before Parliament to debate the issue at the earliest opportunity.

The private sector constitutes the demand side of skills development in this country. As such, it is the growth needs of the private sector that determine what skills should be developed, and how. Yet government has thought it good to remove skills development from the hands of the private sector and put it in the hands of a highly interventionist state bureaucracy, which it does not have the capacity to steer effectively.

As Minister Manuel’s comments show, despite the many failures of the Seta bureaucracy to effect a skills revolution, the ANC government still has no inkling of what the real problems behind the slow pace of skills development in South Africa are. I thank you. [Applause.]

                TEACHING OF COMPUTER SKILLS AT INANDA
                        (Member’s Statement)

Ms H C MGABADELI: Chairperson, I quote President Thabo Mbeki, who spoke of “the happiness that can come to men and women if they live in a land that is free”. Inanda has proved to do that.

Masibonge emakhosini athanda abantu bawo, sibonge inkosi uNgcobo ngokubambisana kwakhe noZakithi Magubane oyikhansela lesigceme 3. Impumelelo iyaqhubeka. Siyabonga Ngqongqoshe wezolimo.

Sibonga kakhulu ngale … (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[We thank amakhosi who love their people. A word of gratitude goes to Inkosi Ngcobo for co-operating with Zakithi Magubane, who is a councillor for ward 3. Success is on the increase. We thank you, Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs.

We are thankful for …]

… a visible working relationship with the substation at Mtshebeni. Thanks to Director Mgobhozi and his team, indeed the maximum number of people from Inanda see the need for the existence of the police service.

Regarding joint efforts with the youth and education, we want to thank Dr G Msimang, who is a Cluster B team leader at Inanda. He has really opened up the issue of a long-lasting solution to scarce skills. Hallelujah to the Department of Education. Each one teach one!

What a joy to mothers, fathers and their children attending computer lessons together with the assistance of government communication Abet at Inanda. Many thanks to the Department of Communications, including CEO Sibonisile Nozipho Mbatha. Now, women, old and young, are sending and receiving their own emails at Inanda. They have bridged the digital divide. The globe is at their doorstep. Phambili [Forward], ANC! [Applause.]

               MEMBERS OF THE POLICE INVOLVED IN CRIME

                        (Member’s Statement)

Mr V B NDLOVU (IFP): Thank you, Madam Chair. I didn’t know that you were going to call us.

The unacceptably high level of crime in our country has affected the lives of all South Africans. It is unfortunate that crime has now become part of our everyday lives. This makes the fight against crime and the work that the brave men and women of the SA Police Service have to perform more urgent. A co-ordinated and concerted effort is needed if we are to make inroads and win the fight against crime. It is therefore disappointing that a police officer was one of the five men arrested last week after being linked to a cash-in-transit heist in Limpopo.

The dishonest action of a few police officers not only unfairly undermines the good work that is being done by the many other hardworking policemen and women; it also erodes the public trust and confidence in our police service. It is for this reason that dishonest police officers who obstruct rather than contribute to the fight against crime must be weeded out of the police service, brought to book and jailed. Thank you.

                 PROVISION OF SANITATION IN SCHOOLS

                        (Member’s Statement)

Mr A M MPONTSHANE (IFP): Madam Chair, it is a great concern for the IFP that Minister Hendricks, the Minister of Water Affairs and Forestry, warned that government’s stated goal of supplying all schools with proper sanitation by 2008 will not be realised in time because of a lack of capacity in various municipalities.

The Minister was speaking at a summit in the North West. During discussions at the summit, it became clear that the biggest challenges faced are the lack of skills and capacity within municipalities as well as a shortfall in their budgets. An estimated R3,1 billion is still needed to eradicate the sanitation backlog in the entire North West Province.

In 1996 the sanitation backlog in the North West was 390 000. Now, eleven years later, the backlog figure still stands at a massive 296 000. That not all schools have access to adequate sanitation remains a grave concern for us. This issue is a priority, as poor sanitation in the school environment has a ripple effect on the lives of the learners.

Relevant departments should work with the Department of Education to ensure that sanitation is provided in schools that do not have these facilities or where they are inadequate. I thank you.

         SUPER-14 RUGBY FINAL AND STATEMENTS BY MR KOMPHELA


                        (Minister’s Response)

The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Chairperson, we want to join the hon Mulder in congratulating the Blue Bulls and the Sharks on qualifying for the finals of the SANZA Super 14 trophy. These boys and their coaches have obviously done very well to reach this level of the competition.

But we want to warn South Africa that we must not be complacent. Whilst we were focusing on preparing for the Super 14 competitions, the other countries were preparing their players for the World Cup that is coming in France this September. To start this process of preparing for the World Cup now, is going to need more than parliamentary speeches and recalling old and retired players who may have been very good in this local competition. What will be expected of us is broad-minded and creative selectors and a leeway for the leadership of rugby football to lead in the process of preparing our players for this World Cup in France.

Parliamentarians would do well not to march up and down in the streets and the stadia of South Africa because they want to interfere with this process. They would do well not to raise their concerns to the detriment of these elected leaders doing their work properly. [Interjections.] Those who marched at Loftus Versveld, MPs from that side, were interfering. Those who gave our players reason to show greed on the playing field rather than shouting in Parliament, are the ones who will help South Africa play well in France this coming September. [Interjections.]

Remember what happened in 1974? You were complaining, moaning and shouting like you are doing now, and you lost all the series. [Applause.]

Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Chair, may I ask: Is the hon Minister making himself available for the Springbok side? We are not quite sure what he is trying to get at here.

The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: If the hon member had ever played rugby, he would never ask that question. [Laughter.]

Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Chair, I did play rugby. I don’t quite know what point he is making. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Excuse me, hon Ellis. I would like to continue. Let me just state the Ministers I have recognised. They are Erwin, Pandor, Didiza, Hendricks and Balfour.

                 TASIMA CONSORTIUM AWARDED CONTRACT

                        (Minister’s Response)

The MINISTER FOR PUBLIC ENTERPRISES (for the Minister of Transport): Chairperson, I presume that the quality of rugby played by Mr Ellis is the reason he is in Parliament, or possibly his age. [Laughter.]

Chairperson, I’m currently the Acting Minister of Transport. Clearly, whilst the eNatis process is very important for us to automate the system, the problems we are having are a matter of concern. I will communicate with the Minister of Transport because I think it is important that we have a full statement on exactly what the position is. I’m sure that once I have communicated the message to him, he will find an appropriate way of making a full statement with the facts, as opposed to possible propositions. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon Pandor, apparently you did not raise your hand. Then it is hon Pahad.

            INCLUSION OF KHUTSONG IN NORTH WEST PROVINCE

                        (Minister’s Response)

The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Chairperson, I just want to respond to the question on Khutsong by stating that the Minister for Provincial and Local Government will be having a press briefing, either later today or tomorrow, in which he is going to be addressing all of these issues. So, just be patient. You will get the response from the Minister for Provincial and Local Government.

We need to add that it is not true that consultations did not take place in Khutsong. Both the Gauteng Legislature and the North West Legislature carried out consultations in that area. But, be patient. The Minister will explain everything tomorrow.

              SANDTON-ROSEBANK ANC CONSTITUENCY OFFICE

                        (Minister’s Response)

UNGQONGQOSHE WEZEMISEBENZI YOMPHAKATHI: Sihlalo, ngithi mangibonge kwilungu elihloniphekile, uMaluleke, ngokuthi lisinikeze umbiko ovela emphakathini eliwumele, nokuthi lisazisile ukuthi yini abayenzayo. Siyabonga futhi naselungeni elihloniphekile uHlengiwe Mgabadeli ngezincomo azibekile. Lokhu kuyabonisa ukuthi uma aMalungu ePhalamende ewenza umsebenzi, kuyasisiza nathi singamalungu esigungu sikahulumeni ukuze sazi ukuthi yiziphi izinto esizenzayo eziyizinhlelo eziphumelelayo, kanti futhi kuyasiza nokuthi sikwazi ukuxhumana kalula nemiphakathi.

Ngithanda-ke ukusho ukuthi, ikakhulukazi njengoba eGauteng sakha iGautrain, singathanda ukuthi uma kukhona izinkinga umphakathi ohlangabezana nazo ukwazi ukuxhumana nozakwethu uNgqongqoshe wesifundazwe wezemisebenzi yomphakathi, uJacobs, osebenzisana kakhulu nenkotileka esiyibekile, iMbombela, ukuze kuthi uma kukhona izihibe sikwazi ukubhekana nazo kusenesikhathi. Ngiyabonga. [Ihlombe.] (Translation of isiZulu Minister’s response follows.)

[The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: Chairperson, I thank the hon member, Mr Maluleke, for giving us the report from his constituency and also for briefing us on what they are doing. We are also grateful to the hon member, Hlengiwe Mgabadeli, for the commendations she put forward. This shows that if Members of Parliament do their work effectively, we, the executive, are helped in a way because we are able to keep track of our programmes and monitor the success thereof. It also makes it easy for us to communicate with communities.

I would then like to say that - particularly in Gauteng as we are constructing the Gautrain - we would appreciate it if, should the community encounter any problem, they would contact my provincial counterpart, the Gauteng MEC for Public Transport, Roads and Works, Mr Jacobs, who works closely with Bombela Consortium, which is the contractor that we have appointed. This would help us in removing any obstacles which may be there, well in advance. [Applause.]]

                 PROVISION OF SANITATION IN SCHOOLS

                        (Minister’s Response)

The MINISTER OF WATER AFFAIRS AND FORESTRY: Chairperson, I’d like to respond to the statement from the hon member of the IFP. Just to put it in context, the hon member knows that as government we’ve set ourselves targets to meet as far as the provision of basic services to our people in this country is concerned. The target for provision of water and sanitation in schools was set down as 2005, and that target has been missed.

The target we have set for ourselves is reaching the provision of water and sanitation to all our schools by the 2008-09 financial year. What will it take for us to meet that target as a country? Obviously, it will require hands-on support by the Department of Provincial and Local Government and the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry, making sure that municipalities are capacitated to deliver on this target. We work with them in terms of the identification of backlogs, and in terms of ensuring that this is in their plans and that my department comes in and assists in that regard. I also mentioned that we will require a reasonable budget for this target to be met.

Working with the Department of Education, we are identifying and dealing with a whole host of problems, including how you actually provide the basic permanent service in many schools that are not permanent structures. We need to verify the basic service level in terms of what a school is and how much provision of basic services should go into that school. I can assure the hon member that the summit looked at the state of readiness of the province in terms of the provision of basic services. I thank you.

            SUCCESSFUL COMMUNITY POLICING IN GARSFONTEIN
               MEMBERS OF THE POLICE INVOLVED IN CRIME

                        (Minister’s Response)

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Chairperson, I can only support what Dr Koornhof has said about the Garsfontein police station. Good teamwork between all those involved in the fight against crime, combined with a will and dedication to succeed at local level and to take our streets back from criminals, will contribute to building safer communities. I agree fully with what you are saying, Dr Koornhof.

Collectively, a community that is determined to win the fight against crime will be a strong community, and that’s what we should say to our communities, that it’s not the government’s responsibility alone.

Gatsheni, uxakekile uyathetha apho. Awumamelanga, kodwa ubugqiba kukhalaza. Ubokumamela, Gatsheni. Hlala phantsi, Gatsheni. [Gatsheni, you are busy talking and not listening, but you were just now complaining. You must turn to listen, Gatsheni. Please sit down.]

I am bigger than you. Those brave men and women of the SA Police Service need our support. You are quite correct. Those who do wrong within the ranks of the SAPS and even Correctional Services, Justice, Home Affairs and everywhere else, should face the law and face sentences in my correctional centres. Period! [Laughter.]

           REINCORPORATION OF MATATIELA INTO KWAZULU-NATAL    GOVERNMENT’S FAILURE TO INTRODUCE LEGISLATION AGAINST HUMAN TRAFFICKING

                        (Minister’s Response) The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, I am responding to two issues raised by the IFP. Firstly, the hon Smith knows very well, in raising the Matatiele matter, that the Constitutional Court has given two judgments on this issue, and not on a single aspect has any substantive issue about the provincial boundaries and those two pieces of legislation been found to be unconstitutional. The only aspect that is found wanting is that the KwaZulu-Natal legislature had not consulted, which is a procedural issue. I’m very happy to tell you that the two Bills will be introduced in Parliament in the next week or two and the procedural defect will be rectified. They have been approved by Cabinet.

Secondly, the hon Koos van der Merwe, our resident clown in Parliament, has raised the issue of human trafficking. I must say that the issue of trafficking is obviously a very important issue, but the stunning thing is not what he says, but what he doesn’t say. The hon Koos van der Merwe himself participated in the debate around the Sexual Offences Bill and he supported the Bill.

Mr B W DHLAMINI: Madam Chair, on a point of order: Is it parliamentary to call an hon member “a House clown”? [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Well, if the shoe fits.

Mr B W DHLAMINI: I’m waiting for a response from the Chairperson and not from other clowns. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon member, I was wondering whether anybody was going to respond to that and was going to agree with you. Hon Deputy Minister, will you take your chair for a moment, please? But, hon Dhlamini, do you not feel you have transgressed the same rule now? [Laughter.] It is not parliamentary and therefore I would like to call on you and the person who first made the statement to withdraw it. [Laughter.]

Mr B W DHLAMINI: I withdraw it, Chair. [Laughter.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: I withdraw it graciously, Chair. [Laughter.]

The point I was making is that the hon Van der Merwe participated and supported the Sexual Offences Bill. The Sexual Offences Bill as an interim measure has a whole chapter on trafficking. We have criminalised all aspects of trafficking that have any sexual connotation, which, if anyone knows anything about trafficking, covers 99% of all trafficking situations.

Secondly, the thing that he doesn’t mention to us is, of course, that the SA Law Commission is doing a full and comprehensive report on the matter. So, to hon Koos, next time he should read Bills before he supports them. [Laughter.]

            NATIONAL SPORT AND RECREATION AMENDMENT BILL

                       (Second Reading debate)

The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Chairperson, Cabinet colleagues, hon members and ladies and gentlemen, three weeks ago our nation was engulfed in a cloud of frustration as the Proteas crumbled in the ICC World Cup semifinals in Jamaica. This week we will see two South African teams in the Super 14 of the SANZA Cup in Durban, for the first time in the history of that prestigious tournament. Bafana Bafana’s qualification games for the African Cup of Nations in Ghana are going very well. We shall still see what happens to the Tri-Nations down the line and the Rugby World Cup in France towards the end of the year.

The above scenario depicts the ups and downs of our national teams’ performance. It also reflects the impact of this inconsistent performance on the mood of our people. As a department, we have an obligation to be steadfast in our resolve to lay better and surer foundations for the long- term performance of our teams and for a quality performance of these teams. We must forever improve the organisation of sport, its governance as well as the access to participation by as many South Africans as possible. This is what the Bill before us is endeavouring to do.

Sport is a powerful transformation force. It only depends on the agenda of those in charge for it to fulfil its potential. Under apartheid sport was used as a tool for domination, subjugation and indoctrinating some of our citizens into a superiority complex and others into an inferiority complex. During the democratic dispensation sport must contribute to nation- building. It must contribute to social cohesion.

Building on the spirit of its Preamble, section 1 of our Constitution emphasises values such as nonracialism, equality and human dignity as some of the key elements of the South African society we are trying to build. Section 7(2) of the same Constitution enjoins the state “to respect, protect, promote and fulfil the rights envisaged by that Constitution”.

This Bill is a modest approach to making a contribution to what the Constitution enjoins all of us to do. Those who have always enjoyed privileges are not going to feel very comfortable with this Bill. But those who have always been denied access will accept this Bill as the sole pillar to which to cling in order also to have access to what others have always had. Yes, more mouths will now be opened for the same cake, but we don’t need to fight over the cake. We must manage the process! [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Order! One second please, hon Minister. Hon members, please try to keep the conversation a bit lower; it is intrusive.

The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Chairperson, the ethos of a sharing and caring society will not come spontaneously. We must be midwives to the changes that must come. We must be willing catalysts.

Our country continues to talk and watch as sport continues to be a free-for- all. Powerful individuals and well-resourced officials with very good contacts tend to ride roughshod over transformation and good governance issues. The best we can do now is to cajole, encourage and persuade federations. We cannot compel them. Very little has happened so far in our senior teams.

Most political philosophers, from Aristotle through Lenin to modern change managers agree that for change to happen there must be an element of coercion. This is even more so when a society is emerging from a deeply divided past. Somebody must lead. This cannot be left to chance and market forces.

The late Comrade Steve Tshwete correctly equated sports federations to wheelbarrows. They will not move of their own volition. Someone must pick them up and push them. This Bill tries to do that with sensitivity and care, but always faithful to the values enshrined in the Constitution.

The bulk of the Bill aligns our law with the changes caused by the de- establishment of the SA Sports Commission.

Clause 13 of the Bill makes provision for the Minister to intervene where problems and disputes fail to be resolved through the internal dispute resolution processes of sports bodies. The Minister is also being empowered to intervene when our sport and the values of our country are being brought into disrepute.

Clause 14 provides for the Minister to issue guidelines or policies for the promotion of the values of equity, nonracialism, nonsexism and the advancement of human freedom, rights and dignity in sport and recreation. The Minister of Finance announced in his Budget Speech the introduction of incentives for federations that are diligent with transformation. This Bill makes it possible for Sport and Recreation South Africa to monitor such diligence and to motivate for such intended incentives.

We will not select South African teams, we will not dictate who should be elected to be president of which federation. But we will adjudicate when this national asset, sport, is being wasted and demeaned. This is what most governments do in the democratic world. This is what our people have been calling for, for years now.

The Bill is reasonable. It places responsibility for transformation in the hands of the Ministry, which is accountable to this House and to the citizens of our country.

We hope the hon members of this august House will lead the desire of those people who brought us here. Our selfish prejudices must die for the nation to live. Thank you for your support. [Applause.]

Mr B M KOMPHELA: Chairperson, hon members and comrades, firstly, on behalf of the ANC and the committee, we wish to extend an appreciation of the vigorous participation of members of the committee in dealing with this amending Bill, and of the tremendous support we obtained from the people out there, in the six provinces where we had extensive consultations to find out whether the Bill could be fine-tuned to meet the expectations of the people.

We also want to commend the MECs and the chairpersons of the provinces for the support they gave us in preparing that, wherever we were in the six provinces, people would be waiting for us and would participate in discussions on this Bill.

This is the continuation of the work of the ANC. In 2002, at the 51st national conference of the ANC in Stellenbosch, a resolution was adopted that we must speed up transformation regardless of who gets concerned, as our people are patiently waiting for that change. We are meeting that obligation and are fulfilling the mandate the ANC was given by the people in Stellenbosch.

The freedom we enjoy today came about primarily as a result of the sweat, the toil and the blood of the masses of the people, and their outcry was that the country has to be changed to be a better place for all of us to live in and enjoy. Thus, a democratic and progressive South Africa emerged and therefore we speak out in support of those who pushed for this democratic country to be what it is.

This Bill was referred to the committee on 26 August 2006. Immediately after that the committee took it to the people for their input. We invited people from across the country and we also invited journalists to come and participate and ask questions of clarity on this Bill. Only two of those journalists turned up. Only those two are able to articulate the understanding and politics that underpin this piece of legislation, because they have asked the correct questions. Those who were not there are still asking the wrong questions about interference by the Minister. It is not the intention of the Bill to let him interfere but he must decisively intervene where anarchy prevails. The young people of this country and Solidarity participated, under the cloak of the DA. They never said it was not true that the Bill tried to address issues of transformation in this country to advance the togetherness of the people in this country. They said it was true but this leads the Minister to interfere in sport. We denied that and said it was an intervention and not interference.

Mr Spies, on behalf of Solidarity, was the person pushing these views. We have explained this position and he seems to have understood. Many people out there are asking why we call this Bill an amending Bill and not a transformation Bill. For the first time in 13 years the Minister is taking a decisive decision on issues of equity redress, and therefore this Bill is beginning to talk on those issues, issues about which many people feel agitated.

The Minister should recognise sports confederations in writing. Minister, people have made amendments and are saying you can’t say it should be the SA Sports Confederation because the Minister would not recognise other confederations, and therefore they propose that it be the Sports Confederation. I hope that the Minister will take that into consideration.

The preparations by the SA Sports Confederation for Team South Africa must include consultations with several sporting bodies and federations. In section 2(e) of the Bill it is stated that all national federations must develop sport and recreation activities and they must also develop plans entailing everything mentioned by the Minister of Finance.

Section 13 of this Bill states that sports federations that do not have a development plan will not benefit from this. The Bill further states that the Minister will be supplied with the development plan and also with all that it entails to make sure that such a plan is taken into consideration by all the federations that are involved.

The new section 3A talks about service level agreements. People out there said that service level agreements should be between the Minister or the department and the federation so that the Minister is able to engage the work of the federation towards delivery of this developmental agenda that we seek to achieve. I think people were right to ask for that kind of change.

The Minister will deal with the termination of the policy and also with all other criteria with regard to the developmental agenda of sport.

Section 6 states that before a national federation recruits a foreign player or a foreign sportsperson to participate in sport, the Minister must satisfy himself that there is no other person suitable for that job in the country. All recruited people should comply with all other relevant criteria pertaining to entry into the Republic of South Africa contemplated in the Immigration Act, Act 13 of 2002. Full information and disclosure about that particular person should also be done.

People in this country are given an opportunity to run these institutions irrespective of saying no one is capable of running an institution, as the Premier Soccer League and Safa allege.

Section 8 states that sport should be a responsive tool to unity and nation- building. As soon as it shifts from that it brings tension and antagonism and it erodes what the intention of sport is, and therefore … [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Order! Hon members, you are talking too loudly and it is difficult to hear the speaker. Please keep your voices down.

Mr B M KOMPHELA: Minister, the Bill talks about the colours board. This board tries to avoid so many different colours that are said to belong to national teams. I am sure many people do not understand which colours are the colours of the country’s national teams. This colours board that the Minister will put in place will definitely be recognised by each one of us so that when South Africa is playing you will recognise the colours of this country.

The Minister must issue guidelines of policies to promote equity, representivity and redress in sport. These are fundamental issues and things that are required by the Constitution of this country. We are not prepared to renege on them. If other people request the amendment of the Constitution, maybe it could be considered. For now, the issues of equity and redress underpin our transformation agenda, and that is what keeps us alive and gives us this hope that one day we will be where other people are.

In section 13 of the Bill we read that federations should annually submit reports to the department on annual activities so that the Minister is able to understand sports activities throughout the country.

I want to thank all South Africans. We have just brought you closer to what everybody that we interacted with hopes for - the day the majority of the people in this country will say that we have a breakthrough to the first economy of sport in this country, which is not the exclusive terrain of some section of the community. Then we shall say at least we have brought justice to the people of this country. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr S J MASANGO: Chairperson, Ministers and hon members, this amending Bill was initially to give powers to the Minister to intervene in case of disputes in sports bodies and to substitute the SA Sports Commission with the SA Sports Confederation and Olympic Committee, or Sascoc. But, in its final form, it seems to be a licence for the government to interfere in the aspect of South African sport.

As most recently witnessed by Western Cape Premier Ebrahim Rasool meddling in the affairs of South African rugby, if the ANC’s track record is anything to go by, this Bill, if passed, will be used to impose the ANC political agenda on transformation in South African sport.

While it is necessary for government to be able to create and foster an environment in which all South African sporting bodies can thrive and as consequence all South Africans can benefit, it is not its place to enforce a particular political ideology on this country’s sporting bodies.

Premier Rasool now seems to believe that if someone’s family fought with the ANC against apartheid that should be a criterion considered for selection. That is government interference gone mad. This is precisely taking the route of the name change.

If the Minister of Sport and Recreation has a formal pass to intervene, what will stop him from taking Premier Rasool’s sentiments to the ultimate level? South Africa, like any other country, has amateur sport and professional sport. Professional sport is paid, which means that it is a business sport. According to the Constitution of South Africa they are private, not public companies.

The Constitution gives every individual and organisation the right to join an organisation of their choice. The purpose of this Bill is to compel federations to join nongovernmental organisations such as the SA Sports Confederation, mentioned in the Bill. If this government upholds the Constitution of the country, then a federation has the right to join or not to join the SA Sports Confederation approved by the Minister, as long as that federation is an NGO.

Last year we had public hearings here in Parliament, where sport federations and those who have an interest in sport presented their views. Yes, some were in favour of the amendment and others were not, and there were good reasons for supporting the amendment of the Bill.

Early this year we had one public hearing in each province. In the provinces where I attended, I must point out that most of the people did not have a clue about the Bill and their participation was not at all focused on the Bill. This can be attributed to the fact that people received the Bill at the public hearings and there was no way they could read and understand the Bill. But I must say that what most of the people were complaining about were lack of facilities, development of sport at the grass-roots level and mentoring. This is what the DA has been saying all along. Very few people talked about transformation and nothing was said about race, even though the ANC tried to bring race into the public hearings.

As long as municipalities do not maintain their existing facilities in disadvantaged areas, transformation will remain a pipe dream or it will only exist on the basis of quotas and not merit.

On 17 October 2006, this House passed the South African Institute for Drug- Free Sport Amendment Bill, and in my speech I raised two concerns. One of the concerns was the inclusion of Sascoc to substitute the SA Sports Commission, while Sascoc is a nongovernmental organisation and federations are not compelled to join it. I did raise this concern again in the portfolio committee meetings when we were deliberating the Sport and Recreation Amendment Bill. But I was surprised in the last meeting on the Bill when the ANC pronounced that they were no longer in favour of Sascoc being the representative of the federation and that Sascoc had to be removed from the Bill.

There could be more than one reason why the ANC is not in favour of Sascoc, but I will mention one which I think prompted the ANC to do away with them; it is that Sascoc took a decision without consulting the Minister or the chairperson of the Portfolio Committee on Sport and Recreation and placed Karate South Africa under curatorship.

The government should develop sport at grass-roots level and not interfere with professional sport. The DA will not support this Bill.

Mr B W DHLAMINI: Chairperson, hon members and Minister, the main sporting accomplishments that the teams and players from South Africa have achieved highlight the potential that sport has to bring communities and individuals together, as well as challenges and divisions that we still face as a country.

The Springboks’ Rugby World Cup win in 1995 and Bafana Bafana’s African Cup of Nations victory in 1996 are examples that emphasise the unifying role that sport can play, as well as divisions that still exist in our society. The Springboks’ victory was celebrated by and unified a certain segment of our society, while Bafana Bafana’s win was celebrated by and brought together a different segment of our society. Therefore, Minister …

… uma singakabi nabadlali abahlangene abaxubile, sizazoba nababukeli abangahlangene. [… if we do not yet have players who are united yet diverse, we will still continue having supporters who are not united.]

Therefore the issue is at developmental level. We need to develop people across racial lines. It is our challenge to break down the racial, cultural and other barriers that still exist in sport and prevent our nation from celebrating as one.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): Order! Hon members, please lower your voices. Thank you. Please proceed.

Mr B W DHLAMINI: Sport is a national unifier that can bring people from all walks of life together. South Africa is a sport-loving country and for many people who live in abject poverty and face a bleak future, sport offers a glimmer of hope and an escape from the cycle of poverty in which they are stuck. Access to and participation in sport is not just an issue of leisure; it is also an issue of economics.

The pride that is felt when our sportsmen and women do well is not only important for nation-building, but provides many young aspiring sport stars with role models and inspiration. They can now aspire to be like and emulate the success of their role models. It is therefore important that the Department of Sports and Recreation, together with relevant sporting authorities, provide the necessary structures, co-ordination and inspiration needed for the equitable promotion of sport in South Africa.

We in South Africa are in a very challenging situation with regard to sporting issues. Our nation expects success from our sport stars and in trying to provide the necessary framework for this success, the sporting authorities must address the very important and necessary issue of transformation in sport.

As a result of the injustices of apartheid there are still many imbalances and inequalities which need to be corrected. In trying to correct these inequalities, it is however important that we do not cross the line and start interfering unnecessarily in sport matters.

It is our obligation to provide an environment that is conducive to the promotion and development of sport. This is in line with the United Nations, which recognises that participation in sports and recreation is a fundamental human right which all governments should make available to their people.

The National Sport and Recreation Amendment Bill before us today will try to address some of the issues that I’ve mentioned above, including the important aspect of equity in sport and the promotion of development of sport.

Transformation in sport is a controversial issue that has many detractors. But it is non-negotiable - it must take place. I believe that we can and will find an equitable balance in ensuring equal access to sports and achieving the necessary transformation in various sporting codes if all the people involved in sports play their part and contribute to the achievement of these goals. The IFP supports the Bill. [Applause.] Mrs C DUDLEY: Chair, hon Minister, colleagues, the ACDP is seriously concerned about government’s attempts at what appears to be a hostile takeover of sport in South Africa, and we will not support this amending Bill.

This Bill clearly goes too far and it raises suspicions of abuse of power, control and manipulation. Yes, the ACDP certainly does agree that government efforts to facilitate and speed up transformation must be intensified, particularly at the level of schools, colleges, universities and communities.

Access for all South Africans to sports facilities and equipment, with dedicated, skilled coaches and motivated role models to lay solid foundations and inspire excellence are not negotiable. But, bullying tactics are inexcusable. What a shocking example we are setting!

What is government doing interfering in the selection of national sports teams? The debacle over Luke Watson, for example, is so unfortunate. And as inspiring as his struggle credentials are, it is his ability on the rugby field that will earn him his opportunity to represent his country.

Many have had to be patient on their way to fulfilling their destiny, and we can sympathise with their frustrations. Government interference, however, is outrageous and is robbing this young man of his dignity and even his destiny.

Then we have the committee chair of Sport and Recreation calling for the removal of passports for teams deemed not to be fully transformed. There are laws that protect people from this sort of abuse, hon Komphela.

It is a fact that more and more South African heroes on national sports teams are from previously disadvantaged communities, and they excel with pride in their achievements, not having the humiliation of just making up quotas. The ACDP will not vote in favour of this Bill. I thank you.

Mr M M DIKGACWI: Chairperson, I don’t know what hon Dudley understands about this Bill, because her understanding of it is based on newspaper reports. We invite her to come and read the report.

Okwesibini, bendicinga ukuba utata uMasango … [Secondly, I thought that hon Masango …]

… was going to represent the view of his constituency in Witbank, that they don’t understand why the Springboks emblem is still being used by South Africa, but he did not raise that point.

But let me go to my speech. Chairperson, members of the Cabinet and colleagues, the late President of the ANC, Comrade O R Tambo, during the consultative conference of the ANC that was held in Morogoro, said that, and I quote:

We must close ranks and intensify the struggle. In devising our tactics, we shall be required to tax our ingenuity to the utmost. We shall have to display flexibility without succumbing to opportunism, but it can be done. We have the organisation, the leadership and the cadres capable of seeing the web of ramifications and relationships that make our struggle so complex and capable of prosecuting the revolution by drawing on an extensive armoury of methods and forms of struggle that belong to the arsenal of revolutionaries.

Thus every conscious effort of our sportsmen and women to excel in the various sporting codes and in helping others grow contributes in countless ways to the building of our nation and to the nurturing of a caring and people-centred society.

It is in the context of transformation and of the attainment of our freedom that we must understand the role of sports in the development of our nation. There is an abundance of talent through the length and breadth of our country, in our villages and in our cities, to be unearthed and developed.

I often think how much more successful we could be as a nation in the international sporting arenas if we were able to draw our athletes from 100% of our population, rather than from 20% or 30%. A bigger resource pool must surely mean a more united South African front, keener competition and, therefore, higher levels of performance.

I’m aware that several national federations still have a mandate to undermine the necessary, that is the proposed Bill, which will unearth and ensure profound representivity.

The Bill does not suggest interference in selecting teams. That will be left to the teams. However, federations are taking too long to ensure representivity in selecting teams. So, government must make sure that this is corrected by saying, “no to gatekeepers”.

Phantsi ngobugqwirha bokukhetha abadlali ngokwebala lomntu, hayi ngokwetalente umntu ayiphiwe nguThixo! Kode kube nini na, zizwe? [Down with selection of players on the basis of their colour, and not on the talent that a person has been given by God! How long will this continue?]

Clearly, the road ahead for normal society remains a key challenge, and sport is a barometer by which we measure our progress. Sascoc, the SA Sports Confederation and Olympic Committee, is not the vehicle through which to do this. The Bill does not aim at contravening sporting codes; it seeks to promote the values we hold in the country, such as equity, representivity, etc.

I find it very convenient and interesting that when the chips are down …

… yonke le midlwembe iyachulumanca. [… all these outcasts get excited.]

But when we introduce this Bill as a progressive government, we are ensuring that we continue to encourage national reconciliation with regard to the differences and disparities concerning access to opportunities in the belief that the Bill, when passed, will be the benchmark. When consensus fails, the Bill, when enacted, will inequivocally stipulate how things should be done to effect transformation.

The Bill is changing the status quo and the aim is to make all sports bodies accessible to all South Africans in order to change the past. What more must we say, hon Lee.

Ukuba asazi, bantakwethu, masibuze. Ndiyayibona ke nale nto ebangela ukuba bangakwazi nokuhlala ezitulweni ngoku: Kaloku inyaniso iyahlaba. Kananjalo, umenzi uyalibala; umenziwa akalibali. [If we do not know, let’s ask. I can then see why they are now restless: because the truth hurts. Furthermore, the perpetrator cannot remember, and the victim does not forget.]

The Bill is long overdue. There has always been a concern around lack of government intervention when national federations have not met national development goals. There are crises in rugby in relation to administration and in soccer in relation to the power struggle, and the list is endless.

What happened to the agreement in principle, when we talk about the importance of emblems, the national anthem and the national flag, to use both the Protea and Springbok emblems just for the period of the world cups, and for them to be abandoned thereafter? This question was asked in Witbank. That did not happen. I’m highlighting problems around rugby, not to say that soccer is any better.

The issue of facilities is a challenge to the development of young champions, especially from rural areas. Save to say that as the ANC we want to say that it is immoral, unethical and unAfrican to have a leader that does not intervene when the majority of its people are undermined, disregarded, and the dignity of another person is disrespected, irrespective of whether or not he or she is a citizen of this country.

The callous action by the DA and other minority parties is worrisome, to say the least. Mhlalingaphambili, ukuba bendingekho sePalamente bendiya kuthi mabaye ku … Kodwa ke ngenxa yokuba ndilapha ndiza kuthi: Huntshu, Sathana! Phuma endlwini yam! Hamba, mthakathindini! [Kwahlekwa.] [Chairperson, if I was not in Parliament, I would say to them: Go to hell! But because I’m here, I will say: Away, Devil! Get out of my house! Away, you wizard! [Laughter.]]

Listening to ordinary South Africans …

Dr C P MULDER: Chairperson, I rise on a point of order. The hon member has just uttered a rather unparliamentary remark, and I would suggest that he retracts it. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): Order! Order! Hon member …

Mr M M DIKGACWI: What part was unparliamentary?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): Order, hon member, I haven’t finished yet. [Interjections.] Order! Order! I think that in the interest of facilitating good debate in the House, as some of us might not have understood the phrase used, could you please withdraw it?

Mr M M DIKGACWI: Which phrase is that?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): Please withdraw the remark you made, hon member.

Mr M M DIKGACWI: I’m prepared to withdraw the remark, Comrade Chair, but which one? I said a lot.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): We’ll look at the Hansard and we’ll come back to you. Please proceed.

Mr M M DIKGACWI: I’d appreciate that.

Listening to ordinary South Africans, you’d find that they question the very freedom and rights that we fought for and ask: Where have you ever heard in the history of this country, present or past, of a situation where, with habitual untruthfulness and a concoction of unadulterated lies, you mislead the nation with delusion and hallucinations?

Government cannot outsource its responsibility to ensure that transformation is heeded by all who live in this country, black and white. Therefore Sascoc cannot be the best vehicle for driving the transformation charter of the sporting fraternity, as government is and should be.

It’s a figment of fatal imagination to believe that the transformation agenda of federations will be led by Sascoc, which needs to transform its leadership, which in turn refuses to transform its structures.

Minister, you are going to intervene and interfere …

… de abanye babo bagule baqikileke ngemiqolo. Sidikiwe! [… until some of them become sick and writhe. We have had enough!]

The Australian government has just aborted the tour by their cricket team to Zimbabwe, and that is intervention and interference by government. There is nothing new from key leading sporting nations. South Africa is not different, but reacts as the need arises.

During the state of the nation debate, hon Tony Leon said that, and I quote: “As a nation we should spend more time listening to each other, and not be too quick to judge as illegitimate the concerns and expressions of any group.”

I could not but hear the words that were lightly spoken when the hon Minister for the Public Service and Administration said, and I quote: “We must guard against the habit that is setting in, this habit of painting with very broad strokes, generalising to large groups and entire institutions.”

Neither could I miss the words that were spoken lightly when the hon Minister of Education said that, and I quote: For us to be national agents for social change, we have to throw off the cloak of self-imposed superiority that seeks to pretend that some of us know it all. We also have to throw off the cloak of imposed inferiority that causes some of us to define ourselves as unequal to deep challenges.

Having listened as carefully as I could, both to the words that were spoken lightly and those that were not, I’m still uncertain as to whether we have developed sufficient national cohesion enabling us to use a common vocabulary, whatever language we use.

Yintoni ebenza bavale iminyango? Siza kuyivula nokuba iqanyangelwe ngooqomoyi bamaqhaga. Avulekile amasango! Bafuna ukutya bodwa oontamolukhuni! [What makes them close all the doors? We are going to open them even if they are padlocked. Doors are open! These right-wingers want to be the only beneficiaries.]

Hon members, without memory it would be virtually impossible to learn. We would not be able to learn from experience because experience is something remembered. I’d forever have to start at the beginning, not realising that a hot stove invariably burns the hand placed on it. What I know is what I remember, and that helps me to be who I am – hon Lee.

On behalf of the ANC, I wish to acknowledge the bold steps taken by the President of the SA Rugby Union by, at last, realising that the exclusion of Luke Watson was not based on his “biomechanical challenges” as defined by the coach, but the involvement of his father, whom the detractors of democracy believe was a nuisance for not supporting the apartheid system while his skin was pale compared to that of the people he supported.

I hope, though, that the boldness shown is not a moment of brilliance, but a sustainable effort at balancing the scales and truly transforming our sport. I must hasten to caution that the failure to select black players for the upcoming Rugby World Cup, as specified by the President of SA Rugby Union, will be reviewed. I hate heroes of the moment.

OoGqozo asibafuni! Baba ngamagorha omzuzwana babuye basidubule. Yhu, nincede ningasityis’ intloya. [We do not want people like Gqozo, who become heroes of the moment and later turn guns on us. Please, don’t feed us skimmed milk.]

Luke, when you are given an opportunity, show the selectors and the technical management that South Africa as a whole does not adore you because of the history of your father.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): Order, hon member, your time has expired.

Mr M M DIKGACWI: Sithi bopha, Thahla, bopha! [We say forward Thahla, forward!]

Mr W D SPIES: Chairperson, governments are there to create a safe environment for their people to live, work and enjoy sports and recreation as they choose. Governments should stick to their core functions and leave the rest to civil society. Unfortunately, South Africa is different. While people are living in fear because government doesn’t protect them, government spends its resources interfering with each and every aspect of civil life, including sports and recreation.

The new section 13(5) of the Act allows the Minister to intervene in disputes with sporting bodies. In practice, it means that if Mike Stofile and Jake White are in a dispute regarding a certain aspect of the sport rugby, then Minister Stofile can intervene and issue a directive as he likes.

This is not acceptable. Sports should be left to the sportsmen and women to manage in the interests of the sport involved. The FF Plus does not support the Bill and we hereby give notice that we will challenge it at an appropriate international forum. I thank you.

Mr M V NGEMA: Chairperson, sport in South Africa is a multibillion rand industry and contributes more than 2% to the country’s gross domestic product. Unfortunately, this multibillion rand industry is still largely divided along racial lines. We are 13 years into our democracy and there are still high-performance sport activities that are associated strictly with certain racial groups.

Nadeco fully supports the Bill, as it will rectify the current situation to a large extent. The Bill ensures that all national sports federations must prioritise equal representation of all previously disadvantaged groupings and women in sports. In addition, it ensures that the national federations are accountable to the Minster of Sports and Recreation, and to Parliament. Nadeco also applauds section 10(3), which stipulates that all national federations are required to ensure that there are development programmes in place which will redress inequalities.

Nadeco supports the fact that the Bill prevents the Minister of Sports and Recreation from intervening in team selection, sport administration, selection and dismissal of executives, but makes provision, as a last resort, for the Minister to intervene in resolving disputes with sports federations. This Bill will place South African sport and recreation policies at an international standard. Nadeco fully supports the Bill. [Applause.]

Mr N T GODI: Chairperson, comrades and hon members, the PAC strongly supports this amending Bill. Time has given us conclusive evidence that, unless pushed, certain sporting codes will not transform. Transformation is an inescapable imperative. The advent of the democratic order in 1994 implied the transformation of every facet of society to move away from the oppressive and discriminatory past, to a future of equality and representivity.

The sad reality is that in labour, the judiciary, sport, in short, everywhere, there is resistance to change. The Bill gives us a legal instrument to ensure that change takes place. Only soccer has been truly nonracial, even during the apartheid era, but all other codes have remained out of reach for Africans.

We should not be blackmailed by the villains of yesteryear who are feigning victimhood in order to defend their apartheid era privileges. The PAC supports the amending Bill. [Applause.]

Ms S RAJBALLY: Chairperson, to be a true democracy, the country’s rainbow nation needs to be represented in every sector. The sporting sector has been criticised for not being a true depiction of democracy, which this Bill serves to address.

While the Bill is clear in its intention and objectives for South African sports and recreation, the MF expresses some concern on the lack of clarity pertaining to how the SA Sports Confederation and Olympic Committee, or Sascoc, will be established, the governance of its members and the transparency of its activities.

The MF notes that the Bill relies merely on the international protocol, agreements and covenants. We would like some reference to be made to our Constitution. In spite of all the concerns raised by the MF, the Bill is however promising to transform the sector.

Hon Minister, we pray that this sector will grow from strength to strength, for the future of our children and the youth of our country. The MF supports the National Sport and Recreation Amendment Bill.

Mr C T FROLICK: Chairperson and hon members, the tabling today of this Bill is one of those profound moments in South African sport that will be reflected upon in years to come.

After several years of discussion and debate we have taken the first step to empower the Minister to execute the mandate the people of this country have given the ANC to transform all sectors of society, including sport, and we’re not apologising for that.

This piece of legislation is long overdue. We can no longer sit back, fold our arms and allow sport administrators to run federations into the ground and act as if it is a family business. The mismanagement, lack of transparency and serious breaches of good corporate governance in federations and their affiliates must come to an end.

Generally, national federations have displayed a lack of appetite in calling their affiliates to order, because very often the same national federations themselves are not exemplary in conducting their affairs. Today federations act as if they are a law unto themselves. They are accountable to no one but themselves, while undermining the founding principles and the spirit of the Constitution of the Republic. At the same time, their ambivalent, unaccountable, inherently racist approach to transformation is depriving the nation of the opportunity to reach its full potential in the international arena.

The bedrock of this Bill is provided for by the ANC conference resolutions of Stellenbosch, which call for the acceleration of transformation of our South African sport and sport in general. The days of relying on the goodwill of sport administrators to transform are gone, as federations will be required to enter into formal service level agreements with the department and will have to submit their transformation plans and statistics of player profiles to the department. [Interjections.] The ANC supports this Bill, even though – and for those who are howling – it does not go far enough in addressing the fundamental issues affecting South African sport.

Hon Minister, we are looking forward to engaging further in this regard in ensuring that very soon this House will process a comprehensive sport policy for South Africa that will encapsulate transformation as its key cornerstone towards the achievement of nonracialism in sport. [Interjections.] It must further provide for synergy in the efforts of all stakeholders to eliminate fragmentation and duplication while focusing on our national objectives.

At the time of unification there were those who believed that this country’s readmission to the international sport arena should have been dependent on the deep and successful transformation of individual sport codes. The slogan, Minister, if you can recall, at the time was: No international participation without clear programmes for redress, development and transformation.

These heroic sports activists, in the interest of promoting national reconciliation, agreed, reluctantly though, at the time with the motivation of those who argued for South Africa’s immediate readmission to international sport. With a large degree of justification, these activists can rightly proclaim that their beliefs were right, given the slow pace of transformation in federations over the past 15 years.

At the public hearings held in Port Elizabeth the honorary President of the SA Rugby Union, Mr Harold Wilson, who was instrumental in uniting the country’s rugby and school sport said:

We feel betrayed and let down by the federations that did not keep their promises. Support for international participation was always conditional on comprehensive development programmes targeting the disadvantaged sectors of society. This approach had to ensure that all sportspersons were afforded the same opportunities to allow them to compete equally to ultimately represent the country in the international sport arena. Former President Nelson Mandela was personally very supportive of these requests and is very likely to be among those who are finding that their generosity has not been reciprocated.

Once again this afternoon the political parties in this House are divided along the lines of those who believe, and those who do not, that transformation is not an event, but a process that must be driven politically and must be morally guided according to the spirit and the founding principles of the Constitution. These principles include the need to redress the inequalities in sport by optimising the participation, involvement and ownership of previously disadvantaged communities in the playing, administration, management and support of sport in the country.

These parties, led by the ANC, represent the aspirations and ambitions of millions of patriotic citizens who believe in the future of this country and who suffered under the brunt of the oppressive racial policies of apartheid sport that deprived us of the opportunity to compete equally.

On the other side we find those who believe that the normalisation of society and transformation should be left to the market forces alone, with the result that the gap between those who have in sport and those who have not in sport will increase tremendously.

The preamble of this Bill correctly addresses this fallacy by stating that sport and recreation belong to the nation over which government with its elected representatives has overall responsibility. [Interjections.] These parties also need to be reminded that political support was elicited by sport bodies such as the United Cricket Board and Nocsa before they competed internationally prior to 1992.

Political intervention or interference is nothing new in sport. [Interjections.] Intervention happened to ensure that South African sport teams, which were at the time and still are predominantly white, participated in the international arena. Today, 15 years later, certain parties try to lecture us on the dangers of mixing sport and politics. We must not underestimate the role of opinion columnists, commentators, writers, former players - all experts – all of whom benefited handsomely from the previous dispensation and even from the fruits of democracy! The prevailing views on transformation in sport portrayed in the media come from these “experts” who are biased in promoting certain players, while wasting no time to belittle and destroy the career prospects of emerging black players. Somehow these people are of the opinion that merit and competence – you must listen carefully now – only reside in white people. And blacks always have to prove their competence, over and over again, even when these black players are regarded in the international community as world-class. [Interjections.]

It is therefore no coincidence to find that the laager has been drawn again today and that the DA and the FF Plus, joined lately by the ACDP, are joining forces to maintain the status quo, which is skewed in favour of the minority at the expense of the majority of our people. Failure of South African sport teams is also very often attributed to transformation, which they say negatively influences selection policies. [Interjections.]

The question is: when last did we win a World Cup? The last World Cup we won was in 1995. We participated in quite a few with these untransformed teams and they couldn’t deliver the title of a World Cup to the country again.

The ANC therefore remains unapologetic in the pursuit of transforming society. We are not asking for any special favours for black people. We are good enough to compete against the best in the world. The only thing we are asking for our sportsmen and women is equal opportunities to compete. [Applause.]

In listening to the comments that came from speakers from the DA, the FF Plus and the ACDP, I’m reminded of the words used by His Excellency President Mbeki when replying to the 2007 state of the nation debate in reference to a poem called The Rose Tree by W B Yeats. The President stated:

These words come to mind because in quite a few instances I did indeed think that words had been lightly spoken, and truly politic words, but which, in their toxicity could, like the wind that blows across these parts of our country and across the bitter sea to our south, indeed wither our Rose Tree.

I was thus surprised to hear the comments from the ACDP, and the hon Dudley could have benefited greatly from attending some, if not all, of the different meetings that we had. Over a period of seven months we engaged the federations and organised sport formations in the country, the media, even Afriforum, the ANC Youth League and the Young Communist League, and each one of them made an input. We are now being accused of a hostile takeover. How can you take over something that inherently belongs to the nation? [Interjections.]

The bullying tactics that we are being accused of and the purported selection of sport teams and interfering with what they do has been clarified by the Minister. It is not the intention of this piece of legislation to select sport teams for the country, nor to interfere in the running of those affairs, but to intervene when these powerful sport administrators think that the sport belongs to them. We must intervene to prevent sport in South Africa from being brought into further disrepute.

The hon Masango was part of our public hearings, and really, hon Masango, I don’t think we attended the same public hearings, because the people of the country that we went to speak to were very knowledgeable about sport, and they raised a few key issues. They firstly said: “Why do we elect a government which can’t do anything about the chaos in sport?” The second thing they said was: “We have elected public representatives to represent our aspirations in the highest institutions of the country. Why are you not doing that?” And that is exactly what the Bill is trying to address.

The other matter that they raised dealt with Sascoc. They said: “At this moment in time we don’t know Sascoc.” It would have been very irresponsible to outsource and abdicate our responsibilities to an NGO if we know, as we are standing here, that they are facing serious challenges and that they are still being dominated by the very same untransformed sport administrators. Imagine giving power to them now. It will be power that will be gone forever.

We want to thank the hon Dhlamini for his support. We take note of the important role that government must play in the creation of an environment that is conducive for sportsmen and women. That is why the mass participation programme and the school sport programme are of such importance and we will work together with parties such as the IFP in ensuring that this happens.

In conclusion, we will continue to pursue relentlessly this objective, even if it makes certain parties in this House and certain sectors in society uncomfortable. To the FF Plus, I read last week in the newspapers that you were planning to take us, or this piece of legislation, to court. I’m glad to see that your lawyers have advised you that it will stand the test of the Constitutional Court. However, you have moved the goalposts now and you intend to go international. It is your right to pursue that, but because of the consultation and the good relations we have with international bodies such as the International Cricket Council, the International Rugby Board, the International Olympic Committee and Fifa, we are convinced that we are on the right track.

There are always parties that complain about interference - I hope Mr Trent is here. Last year a question was asked by the hon Trent, Question 1707, to the very same Minister of Sport and Recreation about the matter of the Southern Spears Region. In that question the member from the DA asked what steps the Minister and his department intended taking to achieve that objective. The question by implication means that the Minister has the power to do that, hon Trent. At that stage he didn’t have the power. He could lobby, he could persuade, and that was about it. And that is why, Mr Trent, I think that your constituency as well will agree with this clause in the Bill that gives these powers to the Minister.

Mr E W TRENT: Chair, may I ask the hon member a question?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): Will you take a question, hon Frolick?

Mr C T FROLICK: If it’s a clever question I will take it.

Mr E W TRENT: It’s always a clever question. I just want to ask the hon member to what depths he will sink in order to get himself higher up on the ANC list in 2009. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): I don’t think that question is related to the debate before the House.

Mr C T FROLICK: You see, that’s why I said I will answer if it is a clever question. I expected this.

The process of transformation must continue. It is only those in society and federations who remain stuck in the policies of the past who need to fear the implications of these measures or oppose this Bill. Those in society who are leading our federations, and who are committed to transformation by providing equal opportunities to all, will embrace this Bill and grasp it as an opportunity to realise the immense potential of South African sportspeople to become the winning nation that we want it to be. I thank you. [Applause.] [Interjections.]

The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Thank you, Chairperson. I am not going to expose members of the Opposition who come to my office from time to time to seek intervention on sports matters. I am not going to embarrass them by naming them here, save to say I just really want to thank everybody who participated in the debate.

What is very good about a debate is that one hears what some people understand and some did not understand. One also hears how people expose their own understanding of it, which in most cases does not exist. This afternoon I tried to listen to the debate to determine what opposition parties were offering. I heard of nothing being offered.

Mr Masango just went on contradicting himself and displaying an unparalleled level of confusion. He does not understand that transformation is not an ideology but a programme. It is not an ideology. There is no ideology called transformation. [Interjections.]

He accuses us of compelling the federations to join Sascoc. That is what Masango said. There is no such thing. The federations of their own volition and understanding of how sport is organised in the country and globally will know that confederations such as Sascoc exist all over the world. As a matter of fact, my hon friend, I must invite you on 23 May to talk to the president of the IOC, who is our host. All of France, Germany, Britain and Australia have them. I can run a workshop on that when I am given the opportunity.

Mr Masango, running short of ideas, resorted to metaphysical speculation. He speculated that we hated Sascoc, because apparently they did not tell us that they were putting karate under curatorship. He is wrong. Moss Mashishi was in my office to explain why they were putting karate under curatorship. I told Moss that it was the wrong route to follow. They ignored me and then later came back to apologise, when they discovered how correct we were in the first place. Mr Masango is speculating and not using facts. He is lazy to do research on these facts. Hon members, we must not be lazy to do research.

The hon member also makes a bold announcement and says that transformation is a pipe dream. I nearly fell over. I don’t know what we are doing here. He also ignores the fact that his being here is a product of transformation. Those are the rudiments of transformation and that is why he is here. [Applause.] He then goes on to say that this is a pipe dream.

I thank you, Mr Dhlamini, for emphasising the fact that unity through sport is the only hope that our children have. Sport is no longer just entertainment. It is indeed economically productive. When it comes to the selection of these games, you must look below the surface and you will see the manipulation, Mrs Dudley. It is not from our side. It is from those who own the resources and who participate in these federations. They insist on them being sole beneficiaries in some respects. It is not us, it is them.

Sascoc is an NGO which we will not legislate on. We will legislate generically. Ask the constitutional lawyers. They will tell you that it is bad practice only to legislate for one NGO’s recognition. It is good legal practice to recognise that NGOs do get involved in co-ordinating sporting federations and when they are properly co-ordinated, they deserve government recognition. This is what happens throughout the world.

Ms Dudley, I was once given a book about Rip van Winkel, who slept forever and when he woke up, everything had changed, including his own friends. There are no such things as quotas. Go to the Hansard and read my first budget speech here in May 2005, and come and tell me where you got the quota story. You talk about Luke Watson and that he must prove himself on the field. Where were you last year? At the end of the season last year, the Super 14 teammates of Luke Watson – not me – nominated and subsequently elected him as the best Super 14 player for 2006. We don’t know who it will be for 2007. [Applause.]

Wake up, my sister, and also go back to the Old Testament and see what God had intended His people to be like on earth. We must allow His will to be done on earth now, not one day in some other place. [Applause.]

I cannot fight with Mr Spies. He is too young to understand what happened in the 1960s and 1970s. He is very young and he will not understand that. He therefore does not understand the need to be transformed from that horrendous past to where we are now. I can have a discussion with you and I don’t want to embarrass anybody here. My friend, you have missed the boat. We must move South Africa forward to a transformed society. We have discussed this, like Cedric said, with the international communities. We can’t abdicate our responsibility to civil society. Civil society is accountable to its members. Government is accountable to the totality of society, even the members of the FF Plus. We cannot abdicate our responsibility. We have an injunction from the Constitution to move South Africa to a particular place. Please assist us to go in that direction. Let us not allow our children in the programme of transforming the country to be left out as orphans. Please support this Bill. [Applause.] [Time expired.]

Debate concluded.

Question put: That the Bill be read a second time.

Division demanded.

The House divided:

YES - 185: Ainslie, A R; Anthony, T G; Arendse, J D; Asiya, S E; Asmal, A K; Baloyi, M R; Bapela, K O; Bekker, H J; Benjamin, J; Beukman, F; Bhamjee, Y S; Biyela, B P ; Bloem, D V; Bogopane-Zulu, H I; Bonhomme, T J; Botha, N G W; Burgess, C V; Carrim, Y I; Cele, M A; Chalmers, J; Chang, E S; Chauke, H P; Chikunga, L S; Chohan-Khota, F I; Combrinck, J J; Cronin, J P; Cwele, S C; Dambuza, B N; Dhlamini, B W; Dikgacwi, M M; Dithebe, S L; Dlali, D M; Erwin, A; Fihla, N B; Frolick, C T; Gaum, A H; Gcwabaza, N E ; Gerber, P A; Godi, N T; Gololo, C L; Gomomo, P J; Gumede, D M; Gxowa, N B; Hangana, N E; Harding, A; Jacobus, L; Jeffery, J H; Johnson, C B; Kasienyane, O R; Kekana, C D; Khoarai, L P; Khumalo, K K; Khunou, N P; Komphela, B M; Koornhof, G W; Kotwal, Z; Landers, L T; Lebenya, S P; Lishivha, T E; Louw, J T; Ludwabe, C I; Luthuli, A N; Maake, J J; Mabe, L L; Mabena, D C; Madlala-Routledge, N C ; Magau, K R; Mahlangu-Nkabinde, G L; Mahomed, F; Mahote, S; Maine, M S; Makasi, X C; Makgate, M W; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleka, H P; Maluleke, D K; Manana, M N S; Mars, I; Martins, B A D; Maserumule, F T; Mashangoane, P R; Mashigo, R J; Mashile, B L; Mathibela, N F; Matlala, M H; Matsemela, M L; Maunye, M M; Mayatula, S M; Mbombo, N D; Meruti, M V; Mgabadeli, H C; Mkhize, Z S; Mkongi, B M; Mlangeni, A; Mnyandu, B J; Moatshe, M S; Modisenyane, L J; Mofokeng, T R; Mogale, O M; Mogase, I D; Mohlaloga, M R; Mokoena, A D; Mokoto, N R; Montsitsi, S D; Moonsamy, K; Morobi, D M; Morwamoche, K W; Moss, L N; Moss, M I; Motubatse-Hounkpatin, S D; Mpontshane, A M; Mshudulu, S A; Mthembu, B; Mthethwa, E N; Mtshali, E; Mzondeki, M J G; Nawa, Z N; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngcobo, N W; Ngele, N J; Ngema, M V; Ngwenya, W; Njikelana, S J ; Nkuna, C; Nogumla, R Z; Ntuli, B M; Ntuli, M M; Ntuli, R S; Ntuli, S B; Nxumalo, M D; Nxumalo, S N ; Nyambi, A J; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Oosthuizen, G C; Pahad, A G H; Phungula, J P; Pieterse, R D; Rabinowitz, R; Rajbally, S ; Ramgobin, M; Ramodibe, D M; Rasmeni, S M; Reid, L R R; Roopnarain, U; Rwexana, S P; Schippers, J; Schneemann, G D; Schoeman, E A; Seaton, S A; Sekgobela, P S; Sibande, M P; Sibanyoni, J B; Siboza, S ; Sibuyana, M W; Sikakane, M R; Sisulu, L N; Sithole, D J; Skhosana, W M; Skosana, M B; Smith, P F; Solomon, G; Sonto, M R; Sotyu, M M; Thabethe, E; Thomson, B; Tobias, T V; Tolo, L J; Tshivhase, T J; Tshwete, P; Turok, B; Twala, N M; Vadi, I; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, S C ; Van Wyk, A; Vundisa, S S; Wang, Y; Woods, G G; Yengeni, L E; Zulu, B Z.

NOES - 37: Blanché, J P I; Botha, A J; Botha, C-S; Coetzee, R; Davidson, I O; Delport, J T; Doman, W P; Dreyer, A M; Dudley, C; Ellis, M J; Farrow, S B; Gibson, D H M; Joubert, L K; Julies, I F; Kalyan, S V; King, R J; Kohler-Barnard, D; Labuschagne, L B; Lee, T D; Masango , S J; Minnie, K J ; Mulder, C P; Mulder, P W A; Nel, A H; Sayedali-Shah, M R; Schmidt, H C; Semple, J A; Spies, W D; Steyn, A C; Swart, M; Swathe, M M; Trent, E W; Van Der Walt, D; Van Dyk, S M; Van Niekerk, A I; Waters, M; Weber, H.

Question agreed to.

Bill accordingly read a second time.

The House adjourned at 16:08. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

COMMITTEE REPORTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. Report oF the JOINT BUDGET COMMITTEE On BUDGET ANALYSIS WORKSHOP

2. Introduction

Parliamentary oversight over the executive has reached a point where the Legislature and its committees need to build capacity to keep up with reforms in the public sector. Such reforms have included new requirements for planning, budgeting, financial management and reporting. As a result the Legislature has had to refine and develop its oversight processes to ensure that information from the executive can be comprehensively interrogated to ensure better service delivery. More specifically it has impacted on the manner in which parliamentary committees perform their functions.

The Joint Budget Committee (henceforth the JBC) has, over the past years, held several workshops to develop aspects of its functioning. In accordance with this approach, the JBC held a workshop on budget analysis, practices and techniques on Monday the 19th and Tuesday the 20th of February 2007. Although the workshop focused on these subjects, discussions also touched on other issues relevant to the Committee. The workshop was facilitated by The Applied Fiscal Research Centre (AFReC) and took place at Lagoon Beach Hotel, Milnerton. Proceedings included:

      • A discussion on the JBCs’ Terms of Reference;
      • A presentation by AFReC on budget analysis techniques;
      • A  presentation  by  National  Treasury  on  In-Year  Monitoring
        instruments and;
      • A presentation by the Auditor General on auditing techniques and
        the Financial Management Capability Model.

This Report serves both as a recap of the event and a summary of challenges and action points for the JBC on how to be more effective in its oversight role.

1. Joint Budget Committee’s Terms of Reference

Parliament has, for the past several years, been occupied with the process of reviewing and strengthening its oversight function. Part of this involves developing oversight practices over budgetary matters. As a result, Parliament decided to, amongst other things, establish a committee, the Joint Budget Committee, with the following Terms of Reference (TOR):

   1) Consider proposed  allocations  in  the  Medium-Term  Expenditure
      Framework  and  the  Appropriation   Bill   and   whether   these
      allocations are broadly in keeping with the policy directions  of
      the Government;

   2) Make proposals regarding the processes Parliament  should  follow
      with  regard  to  its  role  in  the  developing  of  budgets  in
      accordance with constitutional requirements;


  (3)   On a regular basis monitor monthly published actual revenue  and
      expenditure per department, and to ascertain whether they are  in
      line with budget projections;

   4) consider, when tabled, the Medium-Term Budget  Policy  Statement,
      with the exception of those  sections  dealing  with  the  macro-
      economic situation and revenue;

   5) conduct hearings on the  Medium-Term  Expenditure  Framework  and
      Budget Policy  Review  Document,  with  the  exception  of  those
      sections dealing with the macro-economic situation and revenue;

During the Workshop, the need to operationalise the JBC’s TOR was noted as fundamental. In the process of operationalising its TOR, the Committee identified various ongoing concerns, which needed to be addressed. These include consolidating its mandate, especially its role and relationship vis-à-vis other Parliamentary structures and other state institutions, addressing issues of capacity and programming and reviewing its own progress.

2.1. The Joint Budget Committee’s TOR and Relationship with other Committees

In terms of its general mandate, the JBC identified the need to ensure that budget oversight was practiced in conjunction with other parliamentary committees, for example those engaged in overseeing state finances.

To prevent overlap and improve operations, the JBC recognized that the roles and responsibilities of each required clarification. The Committee discussed, for example, to what extent it could assess issues of institutional performance, such as value for money - which falls within the Standing Committee on Public Accounts (SCOPA’s) remit. The issue of the JBCs engagement with the provincial and local spheres and other organs of state, such as the institutions supporting constitutional democracy – the Chapter Nine Institutions – were also raised.

Once clarified, each committee could then design analytical tools to engage the executive in its respective focus area effectively. Generally, the JBC felt it would be appropriate for the Committee to be making recommendations to Parliament. Related to this, the JBC also felt that 2007 was a suitable juncture to revisit and update its 2005-2009 Strategic Plan.

In relation to the role of JBC in influencing Money Bills, the Committee stated that clarity was required in terms of the JBC’s role in the Appropriation Bill, currently formally referred to the Portfolio Committee on Finance and the Division of Revenue Bill, which the Select Committee on Finance engages with. The JBC further recognized that it should be informed of progress and make inputs into the work of the Task Team established by the Joint Rules Committee with the aim of developing legislation in accordance with Section 77 of the Constitution to allow Parliament to amend Money Bills.

In addition, the JBC recognized that, in conducting oversight, the imperative of facilitating public participation from both organized interest groups and from disadvantaged stakeholders, such as those active in the second economy, was an ongoing challenge. The Committee felt that, to supplement informational inputs of this kind, it could also engage in more direct oversight through, for instance, visiting sites of service delivery.

Lastly, the JBC highlighted that due to Members busy schedules and the programming arrangements for the National Assembly and National Council of Provinces, the ability of the Committee to fulfill its mandate in a timely manner was considered to be serious challenge.

2.2 Oversight over Parliament’s Budget

A further specific oversight issue identified was the question of the JBCs role in monitoring and assessing Parliament’s budget and expenditure. The Committee felt that, until the legislation regulating Parliament’s financial management has been adopted – the development of which the JBC should track – the Committee should hold Parliament accountable for budgetary matters.

1. Capacity and Training Needs

In terms of workload and capacity, the JBC highlighted a lack of human resources and other support as an ongoing concern. To better manage its workload, the Committee discussed the option of restructuring the Committee and utilising a sub-committee system, similar to that used by SCOPA. In this regard, it was emphasised that the mandates of these sub- committees should be very clear. The Committee also examined the possibility of developing relations, perhaps through memorandums of understanding, with service providers and non-executive organs of state such as the Auditor-General and the Financial and Fiscal Commission.

Training for Members on budget analysis was also raised as a focus area. Specifically the JBC, with the assistance of AFReC, identified the following training requirements or topics:

      •  Topic  1:  Information  and  training  on  in-year   monitoring
        activities and  instruments,  specifically  how  to  effectively
        utilise departments’ Strategic Plans and monthly  and  quarterly
        expenditure reports.
      •  Topic  2:   Training  on   public   finance   terminology   and
        instruments: the JBC highlighted the need for  more  clarity  on
        public  finance  terms  such  as  inputs,  outputs,  activities,
        outcomes, allocative efficiency,  operational  efficiency,  etc.
        These should be clearly demonstrated in  terms  of  departmental
        examples.
      • Topic 3:  Budget  formats  –  best  practices  that  departments
        should use when budgeting.
      • Topic 4: The role and nature of adjustment budgets  and  whether
        such adjustments were used for under or over expenditure.
      • Topic 5:  Training on performance budgeting, which would aid  in
        determining the impact of  changes  in  output  and  quality  of
        services when resource envelopes are adjusted.  The  example  of
        the rehabilitation of specific prisons in the country  was  used
        to illustrate the need to clearly  understand  the  relationship
        between costs (resources, inputs) and outputs.
      • Topic 6:  Fiscal  dumping  -  how  to  interpret  early  warning
        signals and act on instances of fiscal dumping.  In this  regard
        the JBC noted examples of extraordinary fiscal dumping exercises
        and highlighted the need for the appropriate timing of  national
        budget payments to other spheres of government.
      • Topic 7:  Transfers  and  subsidies.   Although  linked  to  the
        concern about fiscal dumping, the JBC highlighted the  need  for
        clarity and proper understanding of the prerequisites of grants,
        transfers and subsidies to entities as well  as  information  on
        expenditure and quality of outputs delivered.
      • Topic 8: Public participation in budgetary  processes:  the  JBC
        and other committees may need to explore how  to  link  up  with
        civil society initiatives on the budget.  The  Institute  for  a
        Democratic South Africa (IDASA), for example,  has  a  programme
        dedicated to budgetary analysis and the Committee could  enquire
        about possibilities for support.
      •  Topic  9:  Vacancies  in  the  public  sector–  the   need   to
        contextualise the practical problems and current remedies.

As an initial step, the JBC stated that guidelines on the annual programme of the Committee as well as a manual on best practice to inform topical and technical questions to departments would be of practical assistance and be useful for developing institutional memory.

1. Presentation by the National Treasury and JBC Discussions

The National Treasury (NT) presented on various subjects including the implementation of financial management legislation, expenditure reports and monitoring, infrastructure projects and under expenditure. 4.1 The Implementation of Financial Management Legislation

Concerning the implementation of financial management legislation such as the PFMA, Treasury stated that the lack of project planning and management capacity was a serious problem evident throughout government. Although enthusiasm was present, information and skills were often lacking at under-performing departments and entities. Examples of this were the recurring requests by some departments for monthly disbursements of one twelfth of the total annual funding envelope – this often does not coincide with the practical expenditure needs.

The JBC noted the lack of financial management skills within government. The Committee further stressed the need for departments to comply with legislative requirements and, in this context, made the example of departments not paying suppliers within the 30 day time period. Small suppliers in particular needed to be protected from extended delays in payments. Treasury stated that the necessary funds for payment of suppliers were normally adequate although, due to internal inefficiencies and poor cash management in departments, these payments were often not made within the prescribed time periods.

4.2 Monitoring Expenditure and Infrastructure

Treasury highlighted the importance of monitoring budgeted versus actual revenue and expenditure figures as well as audited outcomes of previous budgets. Treasury agreed that PFMA Section 32 reports - whose purpose was to report on the implementation of the Appropriation Act, and after October of each year, the Adjustments Appropriation Act – were important but limited oversight instruments: they could not, for example, assist the JBC and other oversight bodies in picking up on fiscal dumping in the last quarter of each financial year. Apart from Section 32 Reports, NT also produces an internal report, which monitors departments and entities’ expenditure patterns and service delivery. These reports are not published.

Treasury also presented on the financing, expenditure and monitoring of infrastructure projects. Some of the problems in infrastructure roll-out were highlighted, such as the lengthy delays in environmental impact assessments and delays associated with litigation. Treasury also explained its national infrastructure project register, which tracks the progress of governmental infrastructure projects from the identification phase through to the design, construction and completion phases. Similar registers were also being established for provincial government infrastructure programmes. Notably, the register was not currently reflected in Section 32 reports. Treasury stated that it was reliant on accurate and timeous input from departments and provinces for the updating of this register. Treasury added that it would be difficult to utilise the register for oversight purposes as it was complex system.

Treasury also indicated that there were separate teams to monitor individual infrastructure projects although their ability in this regard varied: large construction projects, such as dam construction, were easy to monitor whilst smaller projects, such as the Department of Trade and Industry (DTI)’s small enterprises development agency outlets in towns, were more difficult. The NT stated that the monitoring of these projects should also be a bottom-up participative process in that communities should assist with the verification of completion and quality standards. The NT could only effectively focus on the financial reporting aspect of departments’ service delivery programmes and outputs. Some monitoring functions are delegated to Provincial Treasuries.

Treasury added that the monitoring of infrastructure projects at local level was particularly problematic. The example of the multi-purpose community centres (MPCCs) was used – with NT indicating that local authorities often did not want to maintain and operate these centres. The tracking of Housing was also noted as a challenge – Treasury explained that the nature of the Department of Housing’s database as well as its internal tracking systems made it difficult to count finalized units. The example of the slow pace of the N2 Gateway project was given. This project generated unique delivery problems and delays, compounded by community preferences for the location of houses and the relative cost of temporary relocation.

The JBC noted the lack of proper asset registers and the need for departments, provinces and municipalities to properly value and account for their assets was emphasized. In addition, the Committee referred to the importance of parliamentary oversight over the Gautrain rapid rail project and the issue of monitoring the transfers of funds from national to provincial government for this purpose. Treasury indicated it was currently piloting a project monitoring tool to ease financial accounting of transfers and subsidies.

Concerning the question of monitoring and enforcing conditional grants, Treasury explained that, in cases where government departments failed to meet conditions for grants, it had yet to use the legislated mechanisms to enforce compliance. Instead, the practice had been for NT to facilitate quarterly meetings with the relevant departments and entities. The NT added that it would welcome the assistance of the JBC in formulating and overseeing the implementation of criteria for grants.

4.3 Under-Expenditure

Treasury reported that under-expenditure was still a concern, especially in some essential services such as Health – the Hospital Revitalization Programme was used as an example. Funds were, however, still allocated to these services due to their importance. In other cases funds were redirected to other departments. Generally reasons for under-expenditure varied but, as was the case of Health, dysfunctional supply chain management and a lack of management skills were often cited as causes. A further example related to the construction of certain correctional centres, where the lack of proper feasibility studies severely hampered roll out. Even though the NT proposed that Public Private Partnership’s (PPP) arrangements should be followed with the building of these centres, the relevant Department resisted. The issue of the correctional centres was of great concern to the JBC as the centres were supposed to be near completion.

Finally Treasury asserted not all instances of under-expenditure were due to poor financial management: in the case of the Department of Land Affairs, for instance, money destined for land restitution projects was taken away due to external difficulties in the restitution process. Generally, however, most cases of under- expenditure could often be traced to inadequate strategic planning.

4.4 Vacancies

On the subject of vacancies in the public sector, Treasury revealed that employee appointment procedures in government were complex and lengthy and should perhaps be streamlined. In addition, NT indicated that vacancies in departments were sometimes inflated to that they could vire from these budget line items at the end of financial year to cover other expenditure.

The JBC stated its concern about the skills mismatch in the public service as well as the payment of bonuses despite the failures and lack of performance contracts. The Committee further raised the issue of unrealistic bonuses when Key Performance Indicators have not been met. Key Performance Indicators (KPI’s) should be thoroughly researched and require focused scrutiny.

1. Presentation by the Auditor General and JBC Discussions

The Auditor General, Mr Terence Nombembe, in his first interaction with the JBC, presented on the Financial Capability Model. Prior to discussing the model, the AG explained the three types of audits undertaken by his office:

a) audits on the reliability of financial information presented in annual reports, which look for adequate evidence for the financial info presented in annual report. The AG noted the increasing intensity of doubt about evidence in some entities’ annual reports. b) audits of service delivery information – officially known as “audits of predetermined objectives”. Underlying information should support objectives set out in strategic plan. The AG reported that the NT and the Dept. of Public Services and meet to define what information should be included in annual reports. c) performance audits, which take a closer look at the delivery competence of entities. Performance audits cover issues of efficiency, effectiveness, and economy (the three “Es”) of public expenditure management. For example, such audits examine the input/output ratios of entities service delivery programmes.

The Auditor General conceded that it is a common mistake to confuse the last two types of audits. It is the intention of the AG to reverse the level of concentration in the first type of audit towards a focus on the last two types of audits. A balance between the three types of audits would bring the operations of the AG closer to similar benchmark institutions in the world. The AG informed the Committee that for purposes of performance audits his office would work together with stakeholders such as the JBC.

The Financial Management Capability Model

The Auditor General of Canada has developed a Financial Management Capability Model that can be used by regularity auditors to determine the financial management capabilities of government departments. This model formed the basis for the model currently under development by the South African Office of the AG. The object of this model was to provide a framework to enable the reader of Annual Reports to assess the adequacy of financial management, to monitor progress and to make comparisons.

The AG explained the various levels of analysis contained in the model:

   • Level 1:  Start-up level. No  proper  control  framework  exists  -
     basic planning and  control  taking  place  on  an  ad  hoc  basis.
     Financial accounting and  internal  control  systems  not  properly
     developed.  No  internal   audit   systems   or   audit   committee
     established.
   • Level 2: Development level. This level involves the development  of
     proper  internal  control  frameworks  and   financial   accounting
     processes.  Internal  audit  systems  and  audit   committees   are
     established. Both Level 1 and 2  are  considered  unacceptable  for
     departments and the AG typically  requires  progress  reports  from
     relevant departments on how they plan to improve.
   • Level 3: Control level.  The focus at level  3  is  on  the  proper
     implementation and functioning and  the  performance  of  financial
     accounting and internal control systems, including compliance  with
     financial  management  legislation.  The  AG  noted  that  not  all
     departments and entities in South Africa had reached this level and
     added that performance audits would gradually  increase  in  volume
     once financial management requirements (Level 3) are met.
   • Level 4:  Information level. The focus on Level 4 was on  measuring
     how resources are  used  with  reliable  and  sufficient  financial
     information.   This  level  of  capability  typically  resulted  in
     unqualified audit reports.
   • Level 5: Managed level.  The focus is on  balancing  efficient  and
     economical use of resources with quality  and/or  effectiveness  of
     results achieved.
   • Level 6: Optimising level.  The focus is on continuous  improvement
     and learning.

The AG indicated that the model provided a benchmark for improvement and assists by asking the most relevant questions, and in simplifying conclusions over the capacities of entities. The AG stated that explanations and assessments based on the Financial Management Capability Model would be included in the next General Report of the AG.

1. Recommendations

In line with its Terms of Reference, the Joint Budget Committee recommends the following:

6.1 For the JBC to fulfill its oversight and monitoring responsibilities, the Committees TOR must be further clarified and developed. It follows that an operational system for the Committee should be designed and implemented. An operational system should address, amongst other issues, the overlapping functional areas between the JBC and other committees, for example SCOPA and the Portfolio and Select Committees on Finance, as well as the Committee’s reporting functions. Such a plan would empower the JBC to alert the relevant sector committees to interrogate departments on expenditure management issues as they arise. One additional option may be for the JBC to include a matrix of key questions as an annexure to every quarterly report.

6.2 In addition, the Committee should undertake a formal training needs assessment. As an initial step, guidelines on the annual programme of the Committee as well as a manual detailing topical and technical questions to departments could be developed.

6.3 Related to the above, the capacity needs of the Committee should to be addressed. This would necessitate, amongst other things, addressing the issue of institutional memory and ensuring continuity in the Committee’s human resources and technical support.

6.4 The JBC should confer with other committees on strategic plans and budget votes in order to track input/output ratios and later assess the outcomes achieved. The Committee also indicated that PFMA Section 32 reports provide little information that could be used by committees to detect early warning signs on spending and service delivery. The JBC will further engage with National Treasury on this matter.

6.5 That the JBC should consult with the AG in future, specifically on the Financial Management Capability Model and whether departments have reflected on this model.

Report to be considered.