THURSDAY, 17 MAY 2007 __

                PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
                                ____

The House met at 14:03.

The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

Mrs N B GXOWA: Madam Speaker, I move without notice:

That the House –

 1) notes that President Thabo Mbeki was honoured as a Knight of the
    Most Venerable Order of the Hospital of Saint John of Jerusalem by
    the order’s Grand Prior, the Duke of Gloucester, in an investiture
    ceremony held at St George’s Cathedral in Cape Town on Thursday, 10
    May 2007;


 2) further notes –

   (a) that those chosen as Knights “devote [themselves], so far as
         [they are] able, to the objects and purposes of the Order,
         more especially the care of the sick and the injured, to
         conduct [themselves] as a true Knight and a person of honour”;


   (b) that this devotion resonates with our government’s commitment to
         fight for a better life for all our people which has been
         President Mbeki’s lifelong vocation;


   (c) the President’s remarks on the occasion of his investiture as
         Knight of the Order of St John when, amongst other things, he
         said: “As human beings, we should strive collectively to
         rescue from extinction the noble acts of selflessness,
         volunteerism, sacrifice and sharing, exalted human qualities
         that have been treasured throughout the collective past of all
         humanity”; and


   (d) that on that occasion, we could not but be moved when, in
         addition to what we have already quoted, he said: “Indeed, the
         loftiness of these values, which, in the context of South
         Africa inspired our vision of moral regeneration, should not
         be allowed to choke in the arid culture of individualism,
         selfishness and greed that blights the soul of modern living”;

(3) believes that the selection of President Thabo Mbeki for this high honour is a fitting tribute to the central role he has played in the betterment of the lives of the people of South Africa, Africa and the world and the Cross (whose four arms signify prudence, temperance, justice and fortitude) that President Mbeki received as part of the honour is yet another appropriate symbolic representation of this tried and tested commitment to better people’s lives; and

(4) therefore resolves to –

   (a) congratulate the President on receiving this prestigious honour
         and to convey its best wishes for continuous success in his
         efforts; and


   (b) recommit ourselves to the pursuit and attainment of a better
         life for the people of South Africa, Africa and the world.

[Applause.]

Agreed to.

                DELEGATION FROM SEDIBENG MUNICIPALITY

                           (Announcement) The SPEAKER: Hon members, I wish to recognise the presence in the gallery of a delegation from Sedibeng Municipality, which is led by Executive Mayor Mlungisi Hlongwane. Amongst the delegation are survivors of the Sharpeville massacre and the Delmas trial. You are welcome, honourable members of our society. [Applause.]

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL REPLY

THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC

                 Protests regarding service delivery

1. Ms L M Mashiane (ANC) asked the President of the Republic:

In light of the recent protests regarding service delivery, what is the
Government doing to ensure that organs of state are more effective in
responding to the needs of poor communities?   N583E

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Madam Speaker, if I may: ordinarily, when the British Crown awards these knighthoods and things like that to foreigners, you are actually not supposed to use the title. So, I am trying to discourage people from saying “Sir Thabo”. [Laughter.]

Thank you very much indeed to the members of the House for this motion that you have just approved. I would like to join Madam Speaker in saying that I am very happy indeed to see the people from Sedibeng and welcome them to this House. The Deputy President has just told me that her son has brought his own delegation here. [Laughter.] [Applause.] They are students from the University of Cape Town. They are also welcome. [Applause.]

With regard to this question concerning service delivery, I do hope that hon members will indeed revisit reports that the executive provides to this House from time to time, which address this issue of the challenges that are facing our municipalities, because I am quite certain that those reports would indicate that, despite the fact that indeed we have many problems, progress is being made to address these challenges of service delivery.

I am sure we are also aware that the protests to which the hon member is referring are at times the result of the issues of relationships and dynamics within local structures of political parties, particularly those that are in office, and between these parties and the structures of civil society. Added to this is the problem of competition for local resources.

These are critical matters that cannot be ignored when dealing with the issues raised by the hon member. We are, however, confident that where the protests are driven in large measure by the dynamics we have mentioned, the leadership of relevant bodies will address whatever might be the relevant issues.

We all know that the challenges facing especially some of our municipalities indeed are very huge and progress in providing good services to the people is at times not what it should be. Fundamentally, all of us need to understand the huge amount of work that must be done to eradicate the legacy of centuries of colonialism and apartheid.

None of us should pretend that it will be easy to address this challenge. It is important that all of us should tell the people the truth in this regard, that it will take time to realise the goal of a better life for all.

Some of the problems with regard to service delivery arise because of reasons such as lack of the necessary management and technical capacity, critical vacant posts that are not filled for long periods of time, negligence and maladministration, insufficient engagements between councillors and their communities, and in some instances acts of corruption. But I must say that not all municipalities experience these problems.

There are various measures that government has taken to ensure that organs of state respond effectively and efficiently to the needs of communities. Last year the extended Cabinet lekgotla endorsed a five-year local government strategic agenda, whose central objective is to ensure that by the end of the second term of the democratic local government structures in 2011, at the latest, the local sphere of government is provided with the institutional capacity and the necessary resources to discharge its constitutional mandate.

In this regard, government has asked the relevant government departments at provincial and national levels to develop measures and implementation plans so as to ensure hands-on support for the municipalities.

Clearly, it is important for the National Assembly, the NCOP and the provincial legislatures to play their oversight roles to ensure that these measures and plans are implemented.

With regard to capacity challenges, including the matter of managerial and technical skills, there are a number of special initiatives that government is implementing. These include Siyenza Manje and Project Consolidate. Through Project Consolidate, a total of 281 experts have been deployed to the 85 Project Consolidate municipalities by the end of 2006. The deployment of these professionals to the identified municipalities has resulted in notable improvements in provision of services, in areas of planning, as well as financial and project management.

Government is also working to ensure that there is compliance and implementation of municipal performance regulations. In this regard, there are programmes in place to make certain that all municipal managers sign their performance agreements.

Progress has also been made with regard to filling critical vacant posts in the various municipalities. I have run out of time, Madam Speaker.

The SPEAKER: You will get more time, hon President. I will now take hon Rabinowitz. Hon Mashiane, of course, must be first. I am sorry. Hon Tsenoli will speak on behalf of hon Mashiane.

Mr S L TSENOLI: Madam Speaker, I thank Comrade President for the response he has already given. I assume that he will proceed to do so.

But I just want us to understand that in addition to the issues you have raised so far, there is a concern with the reportage of these protests, but also with the role of our own internal capacities across the board to deal with conflict effectively.

To what extent do you think this indeed is one of the challenges we have to deal with?

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Madam Speaker, yes, part of the reason I was saying that I do hope hon members would indeed have a look at what government regularly or occasionally reports to the House about these issues, was to ensure that we have a better, more objective understanding of the challenges that we face and don’t get the impression, because something erupts somewhere, that this generally affects all municipalities. So, any reporting that would suggest that there is that general crisis facing the entire municipal system in the country would obviously be incorrect.

I suppose with regard to the matter of the capacity to resolve conflicts that this would vary from area to area, in part depending on the issue about which there is conflict. But, indeed, I agree that it would be important that at all of these local levels where you find the manifestation of this, whether it is political parties or government structures, that they need to elaborate the mechanisms to resolve conflicts.

Very fundamental to that is this matter that I have mentioned, of the need for constant contact between municipalities and the communities that they represent, because in many instances you get this kind of conflict because there is a break in the connection between municipalities and the people. So, people might very well act on the basis of wrong information because there is not sufficient contact with the municipalities, or the municipalities may act wrongly because they haven’t a sufficient sense of what the feelings of the people are about any particular issue.

But, I am saying fundamental to that matter of the resolution of these conflicts is the need for the closest possible connection between the municipalities and the communities, the municipalities and the ward committees and their regular interaction. I am sure that this would help a great deal with regard to addressing those conflict issues. Thanks, Madam Speaker.

Dr R RABINOWITZ: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Mr President, clearly government has the will to improve service delivery, but it still remains a problem in spite of all the efforts that have been undertaken, suggesting that the problems lie elsewhere and are a combination of lack of efficiency, lack of accountability and lack of capacity.

The IFP has always claimed that these would improve if the Constitution underpinning all our legislation is amended, firstly, to produce greater accountability of political representatives, for which we should definitely have no floor-crossing – but that’s an aside; secondly, the division of power is made simpler and clearer and is decentralised, not in a token fashion but through the principle of subsidiarity; thirdly, that our rights are more narrowly limited by a limitation clause that is not based widely on freedom and equality but more narrowly on necessity; and fourthly, that the institutions intended to protect our democracy such as the Public Protector, the Auditor-General, the Human Rights Commission, the Independent Electoral Commission and others are not answerable to ANC- dominated committees, but are truly independent.

Do you not feel that it is time to revisit our Constitution in order to address some of these issues? Thank you.

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: No, not at all, Madam Speaker. I don’t think we need to revisit the Constitution. But one of the things that we are currently addressing is, as you know, the new system of local government that came into operation in 2000. What we didn’t do was to assess the impact of that, particularly on provincial governments. Since we changed the system, whatever might have been correct in the period from 1994 to 2000 with the system of local government as it was then, obviously would have been impacted upon by what happened once we changed the municipal system of government.

So, that process is on course to look at what it is that needs to be done, that might include redelegation of powers and functions as between municipal and local government. That is certainly one of the matters that need to be addressed.

I really do believe that the Constitution and the legislation that we have are sufficient to ensure that we do indeed have a democratic and accountable system of local government, and I really don’t believe that the problems that have been raised by the hon Mashiane would be addressed by any constitutional changes.

In that context, I was going to say, when I ran out of time, that of course there are other things that we have to do. The hon Rabinowitz referred to this capacity problem. Amongst other things, we have carried out a comprehensive orientation and training programme for newly elected councillors to empower them to carry out their responsibilities, as well as attending to the skills issue with regard to other officials at that level.

We have now started an orientation programme relating to the Batho Pele values so that, again, as I was saying, where you have this disjuncture, this disconnection between municipalities and communities, you then do get the kind of problem that the hon Mashiane was referring to. As our municipal officials absorb and respect those Batho Pele principles and values, that would certainly help with regard to this matter. Thanks, Madam Speaker.

Mr K J MINNIE: Madam Speaker, my follow-up question is as follows, and I won’t make a speech: In order to ensure the effectiveness of organs of state, is the hon President prepared to set reasonable targets for all politicians who are responsible for service delivery departments, and if they do not meet these targets, would you force them to resign? Thank you. The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Madam Speaker, ordinarily what happens is that the national government sets a programme for each of the various departments, portfolios and, therefore, departments, Ministers, Deputy Ministers and so on. These are the things we want to achieve and these are the timeframes within which to achieve them.

As a consequence, of course, you will see that the House deals with these questions every year and we are currently dealing with these now. We then get budget allocations which ultimately have to be approved by Parliament – budget allocations which address those particular programmes.

So, I am saying, yes, indeed, ordinarily all the politicians in government have got targets to achieve. These are not targets of individual politicians or individual Ministers or Deputy Ministers, but these are targets of the government as a whole.

If there is any failure with regard to meeting those targets, it would be a failure of the government as a whole. Obviously, particular Ministers and Deputy Ministers are delegated to deal with particular aspects of government.

I think - I know - the first thing that becomes of concern to the government is not so much looking for ways and means by which to force people to resign, but to look for ways and means to ensure that government programmes are implemented, so that when there are problems - as obviously there are, they arise from time to time - we would have a look at that, to ask: Why is it that these targets are not being met in a particular department and Ministry?

Having looked at that, we then decide what corrective measures to take. And I believe that is what we need to do, so that, indeed, we do achieve these objectives which we report to Parliament every year and, as I say, every year are financed by a budget that is approved here.

Fortunately, we haven’t had an instance since 1994, as far as I can remember, where there was such dereliction of duty by any Minister or Deputy Minister that it was necessary that such a Minister or Deputy Minister should resign or be dismissed. I can’t remember any such instance. But, without doubt, if there was any instance of dereliction of duty on the part of any Minister, I am quite certain that that would have its consequences. Thanks, Madam Speaker.

Ms S RAJBALLY: Madam Speaker, service delivery is essential at grass-roots level. Our communities look forward to living in a clean and liveable environment. Hon President, don’t you think that there should be some sort of monitoring system in place to see that service delivery is working effectively? This can also assist in solving some of the problems facing service delivery. Thank you.

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Madam Speaker, I am sure the hon member would be aware that for some time the government has been working to refine its monitoring and evaluation system precisely to address the matter that the hon member is raising. Yes, indeed, you are quite correct, it is important that there should be that monitoring to ensure that what we have agreed needs to be done, is in fact done within the necessary frameworks.

There are all sorts of things that happen. Perhaps we don’t have enough time to talk about these. For instance, the financial reporting systems in government enable the Treasury, for instance, to detect quite early instances where you have underspending or overspending, as the case may be. That serves as an alert and a flashlight that there is something that is going wrong in a particular area. You will pick it up like that. That is part of the monitoring system. We would then be able to intervene.

We are certainly working on the completion and implementation of that comprehensive monitoring and evaluation system, part of which is the reason we decided to put the government programme on the government website to indicate what this programme is, to indicate the timeframes and to indicate what we wanted to achieve, so that the general South African population has access to this, but, of course, also to assist the government to monitor the progress.

So, indeed the matter is important, but I am saying it is a matter that is being attended to. Thanks, Madam Speaker.

       Government action to resolve growing crisis in Zimbabwe

1. The Leader of the Opposition (DA) asked the President of the Republic:

Whether the government has taken any action in the past six months to
resolve the growing crisis in Zimbabwe; if not, why not; if so, what
action has been taken to (a) help restore fundamental democratic
freedoms, (b) protect human rights and (c) facilitate negotiations
between Zanu-PF and the Movement for Democratic Change (MDC)?
                        N578E

The SPEAKER: I have been informed that the hon Chief Whip, Douglas Gibson, is in charge of questions pending the election of a parliamentary leader by the DA, so I call upon the hon Gibson. [Interjections.] [Applause.]

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Madam Speaker, I suppose therefore, if the hon Gibson is in charge of questions, whatever that means, that he instructed the hon Leon to pose this question! [Laughter.]

This, of course, is about Zimbabwe, Madam Speaker, as you know. [Interjections.] As the hon Tony Leon is aware, an extraordinary SADC summit of heads of state and government was convened in Dar es Salaam in March this year, specifically to discuss political developments in Lesotho, the DRC and Zimbabwe.

With regard to Zimbabwe, the relevant decision of the summit says, and I quote:

The extraordinary summit mandated His Excellency President Thabo Mbeki to continue to facilitate dialogue between the opposition and the government and report back to the troika on progress.

Happily, both the government of Zimbabwe and the two Movement for Democratic Change groups, the MDC groups, unconditionally accepted the decisions of the summit, including our role as facilitator. We should, of course, remember that President Mugabe participated in the Dar es Salaam summit meeting and was therefore party to the decisions taken by the summit. Having been mandated by our region, we have indeed moved with the necessary speed to execute its directive and are therefore engaged in dialogue with our Zimbabwean interlocutors.

The hon member will undoubtedly understand that it would be improper for us to divulge details of these engagements, even before we have apprised the troika of the SADC Organ on Politics, Defence and Security, as required in terms of our mandate. Indeed, I should also say that we have agreed with our Zimbabwean colleagues that all of us should avoid conducting the dialogue through the media, as this would be counterproductive. However, I can confirm that the discussions are proceeding very well. Thank you very much, Madam Speaker.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Mr President, Sir … [Laughter.] … there’s been a good deal of criticism about your own attitude and that of many African leaders towards President Mugabe. I do not propose dwelling on the past today. The decision by the Pan-African Parliament to send a fact-finding mission to Zimbabwe signals a new concern on our continent for the sufferings of our brothers and sisters in that country.

May I ask what steps you propose taking to persuade President Mugabe to allow the delegation into his country? We would not like to see the PAP parliamentarians declared prohibited immigrants, as the hon Joe Seremane, Cosatu and I were two years ago. [Interjections.]

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Well, I do not know that the government of Zimbabwe has said anything about the proposed visit of a delegation of the Pan-African Parliament, so I don’t want to speculate on the matter. I think the question is speculative. The hon Gibson is asking, in the event that the government of Zimbabwe says “don’t come”, what do we do? Well, have they said it? So I don’t think we should speculate on the matter.

Let’s see what happens, but I do not imagine that Zimbabwe, which is a member of the Pan-African Parliament, would not want to talk to members of the Pan-African Parliament. I don’t see how that would happen, but, as I say, I have no information at all that there is a problem around this matter, so let’s see. We’ll wait and see what happens.

Mr M A MNCWANGO: Thank you, Mr President. My question relates to the escalation of conflict in Zimbabwe. I would like to ask whether the President can share with us some sort of road map towards solving this impasse in terms of the AU mandate.

I believe, Mr President, that that kind of road map would somewhat engender hope in the people of Zimbabwe that indeed the President of the Republic of South Africa is doing something.

Secondly, Mr President, what steps is the government taking to curb the influx of political and economic refugees from Zimbabwe, which is now quoted to be around 3,5 million?

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: With regard to the first question, Madam Speaker, I don’t know what I can say in addition to what I’ve said already. As I’ve said, the SADC summit said we should facilitate dialogue between the government and the opposition in Zimbabwe. That’s happening and the agenda for that interaction is an agenda that would be agreed upon by the Zimbabwean parties. They are quite free to put on the agenda any matter that they consider to be relevant to the discussions, so I’m quite certain that the matters that the hon Mncwango is raising would be matters that would serve on that agenda and would come out as an agreed way forward in terms of all of these issues that affect Zimbabwe.

There’s no limitation in terms of matters that would be put on the agenda by our Zimbabwean interlocutors, so I’m quite certain that’s where the matter would be addressed and that’s where the road map would come from, namely an agreement among the Zimbabweans.

With regard to the migration of people from Zimbabwe to South Africa, well, I think the hon member knows what the government tries to do, consistent with our own laws, in that we do indeed act in the event that there are people who have entered the country illegally and we manage to identify and arrest them.

As for Zimbabweans who enter South Africa legally, well, they enter South Africa legally and there wouldn’t be any need to do anything about that, but as to this other influx of illegal people, I personally think it’s something that we have to live with.

The hon member may remember the story which the Minister of Home Affairs related a year or a bit longer ago, that you have an interesting phenomenon around Christmastime, when some Zimbabweans come and report themselves as officially illegal and request that they should please be deported to Zimbabwe. [Laughter.] We then proceed to do that. So we pay for their fares to go back to Zimbabwe, and the same person would then reappear a year later and say he’s illegal and that he should be deported to Zimbabwe.

It’s a manifestation that is indeed difficult. You can’t put a Great Wall of China between South Africa and Zimbabwe to stop people walking across, so you will have this phenomenon of people for whom we pay transport around Christmastime to go home year after year. They’re back after Easter. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

The SPEAKER: We now come to question No 3.

Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Speaker, Mr Gibson did indicate that he would like to have a follow-up question if there’s a chance, and I believe there is a chance for a further question.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Mr President, I understand that the Zimbabwean government has already rejected the fact- finding mission from the Pan-African Parliament. I understand that they describe the PAP as a toothless talkshop with no power. Can we send a message to the Zimbabwean government that we Africans are proud of the PAP, that we want to strengthen it and do whatever we can to help solve Zimbabwe’s problems?

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Well, I don’t know who the “we” is. [Laughter.] But I’m sure that whoever that “we” is, of course, they are perfectly at liberty to communicate whatever they wish to the government of Zimbabwe. [Laughter.]

With regard to ourselves, our principal task currently is to discharge the mission that was given to us by the SADC summit, and I’m quite certain that we mustn’t be diverted from that. It’s critically important that the government, the ruling party, and the opposition in Zimbabwe should get together and indeed together resolve the problems of Zimbabwe. That’s a critical matter and I’m quite certain that that is the matter on which we must continue to focus. But of course, as I was saying, the “we” are perfectly entitled to communicate whatever they wish to the government of Zimbabwe.

Even the PAP, I’m quite sure, would enter into its own dialogue with the government of Zimbabwe, which is perfectly OK, but I’m saying with regard to the work that we have to do, we have got to make absolutely certain, I’m sure, that we focus on this principal task of facilitating this dialogue, as was said by the SADC summit, to ensure that indeed we assist the people of Zimbabwe to find a resolution to this whole complex of challenges that Zimbabwe faces. Thanks, Madam Speaker.

Mr D J SITHOLE: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Mr President, I need to say thank you for not allowing this House to be turned into a stock market where speculations are rife. On that note, Mr President, will you agree that it could be important for us as South Africa to intensify our work in regard to regional integration and, in fact, expediting the process of approving the free movement of people of the continent, so as to make sure that we deal with this element of wanting to close ourselves as South Africa in exclusion of our region and the continent?

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Yes, certainly, we are very firmly of the same view, hon member, that we need to speed up these processes of the integration of our region. As the hon member will remember, SADC even had an extraordinary summit last year, precisely, solely and exclusively to address that particular issue, but of course, it related mainly to questions of economic integration such as trade and so on.

Yes, indeed, I would agree, and processes are in place to discuss this other question of the movement of populations among the countries in the SADC region. Yes, indeed, I think that the interdependence among our countries in the region includes this question of the movement of people, and therefore we do indeed want to put that on a firmer basis to contribute to that issue of the integration of the region. Certainly, yes, hon member, I would say that we would continue to focus on that to try to expedite that particular process. Thanks, Madam Speaker.

     South Africa’s role in attainment of peace in Darfur region

1. Mr S Siboza (ANC) asked the President of the Republic:

   What role is South Africa playing in the context of multilateral institutions such as the United Nations and the African Union to facilitate the attainment of peace and stability in the Darfur region of Sudan? N584E

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Madam Speaker, this question relates to the situation in Darfur in the Sudan, and our role in that context. I would therefore want to say that we are among the first countries to help to conceptualise this strategic framework to deal with that Darfur crisis in

1. That framework was based on two considerations: One of them was to find an inclusive political solution to the situation, and secondly, it was the need to protect the civilian population which culminated in the formation of the African Union Mission in Sudan, Amis. On 28 May 2004, the parties to the Darfur conflict reached an agreement on the modalities for the establishment of a ceasefire commission, and the deployment of military observers in the region. In accordance with that agreement, the Peace and Security Council of the African Union, with South Africa as a member, took a decision to deploy military police and civilian observers.

With the mandate of Amis being to provide protection for the civilian population, an agreement was reached with the United Nations to provide humanitarian assistance to the civilian population affected by the conflict.

However, the success of the mission was, of course, contingent on the success of an inclusive political dialogue amongst the armed groups in Darfur and the government of Sudan. That led to the signing of the Darfur Peace Agreement in Abuja, Nigeria in May 2006.

Of course, from the beginning, that peace agreement faced significant constraints due to the fact that not all of the rebel groups supported the agreement.

Then, of course, the other problem was that the effectiveness of the African Union Mission in Sudan, Amis, continued to be hampered by lack of financial and logistic resources and, accordingly, the need arose to approach the Security Council of the United Nations to play its role in terms of its being a custodian of international peace and security by supporting the efforts of Amis.

Towards the end of last year, the UN and the AU decided to deploy a joint African Union-United Nations hybrid force – it’s called the Hybrid Peacekeeping Force for Darfur – which would be rolled out in three phases. So, we have continued to play our role within the context of these multilateral institutions to reach all of these agreements that I have just mentioned. Indeed, more recently, we have had to intervene, both with the Sudanese government and the United Nations Secretary-General, to try and break a deadlock that had arisen around the matter of the deployment of that hybrid force. To this end, we have regularly been in contact with the President of Sudan and the government of Sudan to address all of these matters that served as obstacles to the resolution of this problem.

As part of our contribution to that peace process in Darfur, we have deployed 578 military personnel and 119 police officers to Darfur, who are part of that peacekeeping mission there as part of the African mission. We are further committed to increase our capacity in the context of the United Nations-African Union hybrid force.

As you would know, the Darfur Peace Agreement is modelled on the comprehensive peace agreement that was signed between the Sudanese government and the Sudan People Liberation Movement at the beginning of

1. I am saying that because it is important that we should succeed with regard to the implementation of that Comprehensive Peace Agreement, because that would indeed assist with regard to the resolution of the Darfur process.

In that context, the hon member would know that South Africa leads the African Union Post-Conflict and Reconstruction Committee for Sudan and is therefore actively engaged continuously, with the Sudanese government, with regard to that matter of post-conflict reconstruction to ensure that indeed we move forward with regard to the CPA, which, as I have said, is important with regard to the resolution of the Darfur conflict. Thanks, Madam Speaker.

Mr S SIBOZA: Thank you, Madam Speaker, and thank you, Comrade President, for your response. Can the President please further elaborate whether the Comprehensive Peace Agreement is being fully implemented, especially with regard to the issue of wealth sharing and elimination of borders between north and south? How will this affect the Darfur Peace Agreement and the processes?

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Madam Speaker, we paid a working visit to Sudan last month. We discussed this matter of the implementation of the Comprehensive Peace Agreement, both with the federal government, led by President Bashir, and we went to Juba in the south to meet the President of Southern Sudan and the government there, President Salva Kiir.

Both of them reported that, indeed, a great deal of progress has been made with regard to the implementation of the Comprehensive Peace Agreement. They’re in perfect accord about this, that indeed there is a lot of progress that is being made in that regard.

The biggest outstanding issue remained the matter of the demarcation of the borders between the north and the south, but they had then already agreed on a particular process and a certain timeframe to resolve that matter, and were quite confident that they would implement that which would lead to the resolution of these outstanding issues that relate to the border, and therefore have an impact on the matter of the revenue sharing, because that border will indicate where the oilfields are – whether they are in the north or the south – which is an important matter with regard to the revenue-sharing formula that they are using.

I am saying that both of them said they had taken all the necessary decisions about how to move that matter of the boundary, and were quite confident, both sides, that they would resolve this matter.

I must say, finally, also that they had decided to institute a system of regular monthly joint interaction between the leadership of the government of Southern Sudan and the federal government to make sure that they have the necessary monitoring and oversight of the implementation of the Comprehensive Peace Agreement, and that that would facilitate speeding up that process of implementation. It is important, hon member, that we succeed with regard to this matter. As I was saying, all of the major elements of the Comprehensive Peace Agreement are directly relevant to the conflict that is taking place in Darfur, and success with regard to the implementation of the Comprehensive Peace Agreement would indicate the possibility for the resolution of the conflict in Darfur. Thanks, Madam Speaker.

Mr W J SEREMANE: Thank you, Mr President, for the explanation, but with further emphasis and clarification, one would like to concede that there are various areas in which South Africa can play its role, for instance, by providing infrastructural and technical expertise or financial support to shore up and stabilise economic activity and sustainability in the area or even providing that we do military peacekeeping forces in Darfur in conjunction with the United Nations Peacekeeping Forces and mandate.

The question that is fundamental again for us is to come back to ask: With all those roles or any roles that we are playing, how much do we synchronise that with our obligations in terms of our budget and effective service delivery in our country? Thank you.

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Madam Speaker, generally the position – I think the hon member is aware of this - that government has proceeded from has been, ever since we came into government, that the future of our continent is critically important with regard to the future of South Africa itself. The questions of peace on the African continent are very directly relevant to what happens to this country, questions of development on the continent and so on.

We have tried our best to see what we can contribute to the progress that the African continent needs to achieve, and indeed, with regard to this matter that’s raised about Darfur and so on, we have taken the same position that we should do whatever we can to ensure the success of this peace process in Sudan, because of the critical place that Sudan occupies.

As you know, it shares borders with nine countries on the African continent. It is a link between the north and the south of the continent and, indeed, if we can resolve these problems in Sudan – and that includes Darfur – that would make a very big impact on where the continent as a whole is going.

It is a strategic country, and I am quite sure that we should contribute whatever we can to the resolution of those conflicts. It does cost money to do all of these things, but I think that our people understand that if we can spend R1 in Sudan and it saves a human life, that is R1 well spent. [Applause.]

I don’t think we should kind of put all these things in opposition to say whatever resources we might devote to these challenges of peace on our continent means we are denying our people the possibility to develop, because I am saying that we can’t insulate South Africa from the rest of the continent.

Therefore, what happens on the continent is really very directly of great relevance to us, and as we have seen in the case of Zimbabwe with the question that was put about the 3,5 million Zimbabweans here, we will continue with that engagement with the rest of the African continent and, of course, continue with doing what we have to do to meet our challenges domestically. Thanks, Madam Speaker.

Mr J H VAN DER MERWE: Madam Speaker, Mr President, I was privileged last year to accompany a parliamentary delegation to Burundi and the Sudan, with Mr Bapela and others.

Mr President, before that, I was very critical of your role in Africa. I thought you were spending too much time there, and that you should spend more time in South Africa. But then I saw the misery there, and I saw the poverty - Burundi being the poorest country in the world - and the bloodshed, and I saw all the misery there. Then I changed my view. [Applause.]

After that, I felt, Mr President, that it is a good thing that you are involved there, and South Africa, because we are alleviating the misery of so many human beings there. I want you to strengthen our role there, and see that their human rights and their lives are saved. [Applause.]

The SPEAKER: Hon President, I don’t know whether you need to say anything about that?

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Well, I only want to agree with the hon Koos van der Merwe, and to say that I am sure that the delegation to which the hon Koos van der Merwe refers, in its contacts with the ordinary people in Burundi and Sudan, would also have heard this message from the ordinary people of these countries – that they do expect South Africa to do something to help them. That is a message that you would get around the African continent. There is a great deal of confidence in this country, and a great deal of hope that we can do something to assist with regard to the resolution of the various problems.

I am quite sure that note one of our people who gets to hear that can, when ordinary people say, “Please help”, turn around and walk away. So, certainly, we will continue to do what we have to do and can do with regard to assisting the rest of our continent, as we are assisting ourselves, to overcome the problems that our continent is confronted with. Thanks, Madam Speaker. [Applause.]

      Policy measures for regulation of political party funding

1. Mrs P de Lille (ID) asked the President of the Republic: (1) Whether any progress has been made regarding the formulation of policy measures that will regulate the funding of political parties; if not, why not; if so, (a) when will such policies be made known, (b) when can the implementation of these policies be expected and (c) through which institution will the funding of political parties be governed;

   (2) whether he will make a statement on the matter? N577E

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Madam Speaker, the hon Patricia de Lille asked a question about legislation that has to do with the funding of political parties. She asked what progress we were making, if any, with regard to the formulation of legislative measures. We are not formulating any legislative measures, Madam Speaker. So, there is no process of that kind that is taking place in government. But, I’m sure that we would all agree that political parties indeed do need resources to do their work effectively, because this is central to the strengthening of our democracy.

The Public Funding of Represented Political Parties Act of 1997 provides a regulatory framework for public funding of political parties represented in legislatures. However, as we all know, private funding of political parties is not regulated. My view with regard to this is that because the matter of private funding affects all parties, Parliament is the appropriate forum for political parties to discuss this matter. Therefore, in that context, I would say, let Parliament indeed engage the issue and see what it is that comes out of that process. I would say that the executive would most certainly respect any recommendation that might come from Parliament with regard to this issue, so that we have a collective view of the political parties represented in Parliament as to how this matter should be handled. Thank you very much, Madam Speaker.

Mrs P DE LILLE: Thank you, hon President, for the answer. You are correct, Mr President. During the Idasa court case, the ANC told the court that the matter of private funding should be dealt with by Parliament and not by the courts. Now, two years later, Mr President, there is still no Bill before Parliament. It does seem like the ANC deliberately misled the court and had no intention of letting Parliament deal with the matter.

Given the recent scandals of Imvume and Brett Kebble, where both the ANC and the DA benefited handsomely, and British Aerospace, and since South Africa has ratified the African Union Convention on Preventing and Combating Corruption of 2003 that requires the regulation of private funding based on the principle of transparency that is in section 10 of the convention, the question then is: Does the government recognise its obligation under the AU convention and when is it going to meet this obligation? Or has the government decided to abdicate its position of leadership on the issue of corruption in Africa? I thank you.

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Madam Speaker, obviously, the hon member didn’t hear what I said. So, let me say it again. It’s our view, which is what I tried to communicate, that indeed the government has absolutely no objection to the approval of legislation dealing with this matter. We noted the decisions that were made and the comments that were made by the judge in the Idasa case that was heard in the Cape High Court. Indeed, the judge said that it was not a matter to be resolved by the court but it was a matter for Parliament to resolve, and therefore to formulate the necessary legislation and not to ask the courts to legislate on the matter. We agreed with that.

What I am saying is, here is an opportunity for our political parties that are sitting here to discuss what in fact is a complex matter. Various parties have made comments about this over the years. I even remember comments being made by one of our parties that they are fearful of this disclosure of private donors because if, for instance, it was companies that were making these donations, as they do, some of them might indeed be denied contracts by government because the ANC would be angry that such companies gave these donations, and therefore we needed to be careful. I’m saying it’s a complex matter and what I’m also saying is that it would be very good if the leadership that sits here and in the NCOP engaged this matter and said how we should address it. The executive would absolutely respect the outcome of the processes that would come from our Parliament with regard to this matter. So, let’s do that, hon De Lille. I think it would be good if our political leadership that is sitting in this House did that.

The hon De Lille made some reference to the ANC. The national chairperson of the ANC sits in this House as a member. You might want to raise those sorts of questions with him because I think that the hon member has been in this House long enough to know that I have insisted on the fact that when I stand here as the President of the Republic of South Africa, I don’t represent political parties. So, you might want to ask the national chairperson of the ANC. [Applause.] Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr G R MORGAN: Mr President, there has been considerable attention in recent weeks about the Progressive Business Forum, an initiative run by the governing party, and the associated access that it provides its members to briefings by certain members of the Cabinet. In the light of possible conflicts of interest, I would like to ask you, Mr President, whether you believe that it is appropriate for access to government Ministers to be made available to certain sectors of the business community in exchange for monetary contributions to the party to which those Ministers belong. If not, why not? If so, how do you reach that conclusion? Thank you.

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Madam Speaker, the hon member will know that the Minister of Science and Technology is the president of Azapo. I have never ever asked him what he does as the leader of Azapo in terms of his political work, and I wouldn’t. Indeed, I don’t ask members of the ANC who serve in government what they are doing in the ANC. So, hon member, whatever people who serve in government do as members of political parties, it’s something that they do as members of political parties.

Then, with regard to the question about the Progressive Business Forum that is run by the ANC that you mentioned, again, I would like to suggest that you should ask the national chairperson of the ANC to stand here and answer for the ANC about that. I am quite certain that he will be perfectly competent to answer that question. [Applause.] Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mrs S A SEATON: Madam Speaker, I hear what the President is saying. I fully support and my party would fully support that all political parties need funding. The question that I want to pose has to some extent been answered in the last question. But, my concern is still this: As the President, do you believe that it is right for any political party to benefit financially by the services of any Cabinet member or any senior executive through providing service to the community, the electorate, in the jobs that they are paid to do, the jobs that they have been elected to do? Should any political party be benefiting from that financially? The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Madam Speaker, I don’t know if I understand the question at all, because I don’t think there is any Minister or Deputy Minister who is ever put out for hire, to say that because they are Ministers or Deputy Ministers, they are going to do this and a result they should be paid as follows. I have no instance of that. I would be very glad if the hon member could tell me which of these Ministers have hired themselves out to anybody, because that would deserve expulsion from the government. That’s not on.

What attracts funders to particular political parties so that they decide to give support to them would be a whole variety of things. I know, for instance, that the hon Dr Buthelezi is a very popular person. He is the principal fundraiser of the IFP because the funders like him. [Laughter.]

Prince M G BUTHELEZI: It is defamatory per se. [Laughter.]

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: I mean, hon Seaton, I am quite sure that if you approached me and said that the hon Dr Buthelezi was going to see me for a fundraising drive for the IFP, because I like him I would give funds. I would donate. [Laughter.] So, as I say, I really don’t know. Donors will give donations to political parties because of what they think of the particular parties. And if one particular party is very popular among people who have got money, then it will get the necessary money. Thank you, Madam Speaker. [Applause.]

    Government’s role in tackling the challenge of climate change

1. Mr B J Mnyandu (ANC) asked the President of the Republic: In light of the Government’s commitment to being part of multilateral solutions to the world’s global governance and security challenges, how is it tackling the challenge of climate change (a) domestically and (b) internationally? N587E

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Madam Speaker, I’m quite certain that all of us agree that if countries around the world fail to curb the emissions of harmful greenhouse gases, global climate change will indeed intensify and the impact on sustainable development would be severe.

Amidst less greenhouse gases compared to other continents, scientists indicate that Africa indeed would be one of the worst-affected regions of the world and that the impact of climate change could drastically alter the lives of millions of people. This has been reiterated in a report released by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change earlier this year, concerning particularly the impact on the African continent.

Our view has been that these climate change issues need to be addressed through partnerships. Internally among ourselves, we are determined to ensure that all levels of government implement integrated plans on this matter. Indeed we do need an inclusive and effective multilateral agreement at the international level. When the Kyoto Protocol was first crafted, it was seen as a critical first step in the battle against climate change. However, progress within this framework has been qualified, Madam Speaker. But today I think all of us understand that the current Kyoto regime is not adequate to achieve a future that is sustainable or equitable. The first commitment period of the Kyoto Protocol, of course as the hon member knows, ends in 2012.

In considering a more effective climate regime beyond 2012, we understand that all of us would have to do more, but on the basis of the agreed principle of common but differentiated responsibilities, as agreed originally at the Earth Summit in Rio in 1992.

Equity in the climate regime requires all of us to acknowledge that developed countries achieved economic progress through more than a century of cumulative emissions, thereby building greater institutional, technological and financial capacities and greater adaptive capacity.

The resulting risk of harm to the atmosphere and increasingly to the climate may not have been knowingly undertaken. However, that risk is now clearly defined and can no longer be disregarded or excused by appeals to scientific uncertainty. Therefore, Madam Speaker, we do indeed understand the urgency of the need to act and understand that the costs of doing nothing about climate change far outweigh those of taking concrete measures.

Given that the energy sector is the single largest source of emissions in South Africa, our government’s current technological interventions are aimed at efficient energy use, diversifying energy sources, research and development of new technologies that promote clean and lower-carbon-content energy sources. An important element of making our energy development more sustainable is closing the price gap between carbon-intensive energy systems and those that are more climate-friendly.

We also recognise that even if greenhouse gas concentrations in the atmosphere are stabilised now, some impacts of climate change will be felt for decades to come. And because of our vulnerability to these impacts, which will be exacerbated by poverty, we are treating the implementation of adaptation strategies as a top priority.

In this regard, there are a number of measures that have been taken by government. At national level, the work done across the government and in partnership with business and civil society is co-ordinated through the National Committee on Climate Change, led by the Department of Environmental Affairs and Tourism. In 2004 Cabinet approved the Climate Change Response Strategy. In terms of that strategy, the national sector departments have done work to establish their own sector strategies in order to ensure that the country can both adapt to the impacts of climate change as well as reduce our own greenhouse gas emissions. As the hon member would also know well, Madam Speaker, a national climate change policy conference was held in October 2005 at which all affected national departments, provinces and municipalities committed themselves to collaborating and integrating plans and programmes relating to climate change.

The Departments of Science and Technology, Health, Agriculture and Land Affairs, Water Affairs and Forestry, Minerals and Energy, as well as Environmental Affairs and Tourism, have all done extensive work on climate change, and this includes integrating into the departments’ programmes those policies and measures that address the challenges of adapting to climate change and reducing harmful emissions.

Let me stop there, according to the clock here. Thanks, Madam Speaker.

Mnu B J MNYANDU: Somlomo, Mongameli, ngibonga kakhulu ngempendulo enohlonze. Nokho-ke Mongameli kubonakala sengathi kuningi okwenzekayo ngasemkhakheni wenqubomgomo, uma sesiza kulolu daba oluphathelene nokuguquka kwesimo sezulu futhi olusethusa ngokuthi umhlaba wonke ungase ushabalale. Kodwa-ke, ngokubuka kwami, ngibona sengathi inselelo enkulu kuyoba ilapho sesiza khona ekwenziweni kwezinto, esikubiza nge-practice. Uma sekwenziwa izinto, kufuneka wonke umuntu, ocebile nompofu, omncane nomdala, akwazi ukuyiqonda kahle inqubomgomo futhi enze njengalokhu kufanele ukuze wonke umuntu nesintu sonkana sikwazi ukubhekana nale ntshabalalo yokuguquka kwesimo sezulu.

Ngabe uMongameli wanelisekile yini ngasemkhakheni wokwenza ukuthi bonke abantu babe nolwazi – uma sesisuka laphaya kwinqubomgomo sesiza ekwenziweni kwezinto ngempela – maqondana nokuthi wonke umuntu uyokwazi yini ukuthi lokho akwenzayo akwenze azi kahle kamhlophe ukuthi ukwenzelani, nokuthi iyiphi inselelo esibhekene nayo? Ngiyabonga. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[Mr B J MNYANDU: Madam Speaker, Mr President, thank you very much for the detailed answer. It is quite clear, Mr President that there is a lot happening insofar as the policy on global warming is concerned. This issue of global warming threatens to destroy the whole world. But as far as I am concerned, the bigger challenge will only come when we implement things, putting them into practice. When implementing things, everyone, rich and poor, young and old, needs to understand the policy well and act accordingly so that everybody, the entire human race, can face this intensity of global warming.

Is the President satisfied with the level of awareness amongst the people in general – in case we come back from the policy conference and we want to implement things here – because everyone would have to know what it is that they would be doing and the reasons for doing it. And people would have to know the challenge we are facing. Thank you.]

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Madam Speaker, I would say that I believe that we do need to do more to raise the level of awareness in the country about these challenges, understanding, of course, the complexity of the issue, and therefore the impact that it would have on the communication matter.

Kodwa-ke ngempela ngiyavuma nami ukuthi kufanele ukuthi senze okuthe xaxa ukuze bakwazi ukufunda ukuthi uma sikhuluma ngokuguquka kwesimo sezulu sisuke sikhuluma ngani. [I also really agree that we need to do more in order for people to know what we are talking about if we talk of global warming.]

Even in terms of their own behaviour, to the extent that whatever behaviour they would be engaged in impacts on this thing …

… kufuneka bazi ukuthi yini okufanele bayenze ukuze babhekene nalesi simo. [… they need to know what it is that they must do in order to face this situation.]

But, as I was indicating, hon member, the principal source of these greenhouse gases in our country is our use of coal, with regard to the generation of electricity. And therefore, these matters that relate to energy and how we deal with the energy question in this country become very important. Therefore, the development of technologies to deal with that matter of how we reduce the emissions in terms of the power stations becomes an important matter. That is the reason we were raising questions about the diversification of energy sources and so on, work that is being done in the various departments that relates to all of these things.

The matter of saving energy is important even in the context of the supply of electricity, and we must push very hard to ensure that we use energy, electricity, economically and not waste it. Even those reductions in terms of the usage of electricity mean a reduction in the emission of those greenhouse gases. But certainly, yes, it is important, I think, that we should do more to familiarise the country with what is meant by all of this and what needs to be done. Thanks, Madam Speaker.

Dr R RABINOWITZ: Madam Speaker, hon President, in spite of what you are saying – and we commend you for the increased interest in renewables and reducing global warming – there is still a sense out there amongst the people in the energy industry that South Africa is protecting Eskom. Our targets for renewable energy are still very low. For example, the White Paper suggests that we should provide 4%, and that’s only 100 000 gigawatt hours of energy by 2014.

One would like to hear that the government is taking more initiative, as is the case with a country such as Brazil, in which there are tax breaks for industries that set up renewable energy factories. There is a great deal more money spent on renewable energy: solar energy and wind energy in RND research and development.

There are incentives to individuals who provide their own renewable energy to the grid and they get a fixed feed in tariff. All of these, and many others, are incentives that must come from government. But questions addressed to the Minister of Finance in the past have suggested that government is not willing to take the lead in providing tax incentives for the development of renewable energy. There is still the feeling that government’s thinking is along the lines of coal and oil.

Is there not somewhere where we can hear reassuringly from you that there is going to be greater investment in government initiatives to solve the energy crisis? Thank you.

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Madam Speaker, I’m sure the hon member is aware of the electricity-generation regime in this country and the dependence on coal with regard to the bulk of that electricity-generation. And I’m sure she’s also perfectly aware of the plans that have been announced, particularly by the Minister of Public Enterprises, with regard to the further building up of the infrastructure to address this particular challenge of electricity, of power.

Indeed, some of the new power stations that are part of that programme will rely on coal. This is reality. That is the reason I am saying that for us as a country seriously, critically to address this matter of greenhouse gas emissions from here, we have to focus on the matter of the emission of the greenhouse gases in the process of the generation of electricity.

The hon member would know, therefore, that in that context, for instance, some of the power stations that are being built would be gas-fired in order to help address this matter. But centrally, to impact on this matter is to focus on this issue of dealing with the emissions that come from the coal- fired power stations.

Now, the hon Deputy President has just reminded us that we are also dealing with this question of more generation through new nuclear power stations. All of these things, gas, nuclear power and so on, focus on this.

The Departments of Science and Technology and Minerals and Energy had quite a big programme with the Johannesburg University to deal with solar energy. Indeed, that particular programme has gone very well, and I know that there are discussions that have been taking place between that university and the government departments with regard to what has been developed with regard to solar energy. Indeed, I saw a demonstration of this, and it was said that the technology that has been developed is a number of times cheaper than existing technology with regard to the use of solar energy. So work is being done on this.

I think that if we understand objectively what is happening in South Africa, the critical matter is indeed this matter of addressing the real source of greenhouse gases in our country, and we know what that source is. Therefore, what we should do is to put more money in terms of ensuring that we develop this technology to make these emissions from the power stations cleaner. That’s the critically important thing.

Work will go on with regard to this other matter of renewable sources. As I was saying, there is this particular project, which in fact has been completed, with regard to dealing with solar energy, which was handled jointly between the government and the University of Johannesburg. I’m told that that technology is already in the production stage, but it was to address this. So I wouldn’t agree that we are dragging our feet with regard to this matter, because we are indeed concerned about the fact that we are one of the large emitters of greenhouse gases in the world. But we need the electricity, and therefore we’ve got to do something about dealing with those emissions. Thanks, Madam Speaker.

Moulana M R SAYEDALI-SHAH: Mr President, planning for ecological security is a major part of promoting national security. As a matter of fact, South Africa has an unsustainable ecological footprint. Whilst we may have formulated some very progressive environmental legislation and policies and may have developed some good plans and put in place measures, as you said, in response to the challenges posed by climate change, what government seems to clearly lack is the political will and capacity to implement and monitor all this wonderful environmental legislation.

My question to you, Mr President, is: What do you intend doing to address the lack of capacity in the national departments responsible for dealing with the challenges of climate change in order to enable these relevant departments to deal with the issues around climate change? Furthermore, the human resources and the financial resources dedicated to these tasks seem to be quite inadequate. Thank you.

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Madam Speaker, I would be pleased if the hon member could give me information about all these things that he is indicating. From what I know, in terms of what is happening with regard to this matter, I do think that indeed a great deal of work is being done in the various departments. I can tell the hon member what’s being done at Minerals and Energy, Science and Technology, Water Affairs, Agriculture and Land Affairs and so on, about these matters.

If the hon member has information that indicates that there might be lack of capacity somewhere or that things are not being done, indeed I would really like to see that information because I’m sure it would help us to then beef up to address whatever shortfall might have been identified with regard to this.

I don’t know about lack of political will and how one measures that, but I can detail what is happening with regard to this matter in a whole range of departments. If the hon member has information that might help us to improve our performance, I would indeed be very pleased to look at it so that we can then act on that matter. Thanks, Madam Speaker.

Mr C H F GREYLING: Madam Speaker, hon President, as a young South African … [Interjections.] … my party and I are very concerned about the issue of climate change. We are also very aware of the difficult task that South Africa faces in meeting our energy and development needs, while at the same time reducing our greenhouse gas emissions. We cannot shirk our responsibility, however, particularly as we are the 14th largest emitter in the world and one of the most energy-intensive in the world.

This is going to call for an integrated and progressive approach from all government departments, but so far we have only really seen action from the Department of Environmental Affairs and Tourism, with other government Ministries not showing a similar commitment in terms of action and money.

For instance, we haven’t seen any progressive reports from other government departments relating to the conference that you mentioned that took place in 2005.

The other issue, though, hon President, relates to the cutting edge Peewee technology that you mentioned that was produced by the University of Johannesburg. Why is it that South Africa did not invest the R500 million to build a factory to produce that cutting-edge technology, but instead allowed Germany to do so?

Hon President, are you prepared to commit South Africa to the renewable energy revolution that is taking place in the world and to put substantial amounts of money behind it instead of the paltry sum that is currently going towards renewable energy development in South Africa? I thank you.

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Madam Speaker, what we might want to do is indeed to ask the Minister of Environmental Affairs and Tourism to give a report here about what’s happening. The hon Greyling says that the only one he sees of the departments is the Department of Environmental Affairs and Tourism. The ones that are out of sight are doing nothing. I think that’s a wrong conclusion.

Perhaps the hon Marthinus van Schalkwyk might want to come and give a comprehensive report as to what government is doing and give more information about what is actually happening. [Interjections.] It will not be a short report, I can assure you that.

I said that there were discussions that have been taking place, particularly between the Departments of Science and Technology and Minerals and Energy, and the University of Johannesburg about the technology that they had developed. I wouldn’t want, hon member, to jump to any conclusions about this matter as to why production went to Germany. I do not know who told you the reason that you have just given as to how that happened. I wouldn’t want to jump to that conclusion as easily as you have. That is the reason, in fact, there was a need for that discussion, because this was co- financed by government. So there’s no point at which the government took a decision that it would not invest in the production capacity to use that technology; there’s no such thing.

But, clearly, you have some information that we refused to build a plant for R500 million, and that is the first time I heard of that. But, as I say, there were discussions going on about this because the matter of the actual development and progression of the technology to the production stage so that indeed it becomes available, was indeed very central to the government’s thinking about this matter.

So, again, let me say, hon member, that I know the general focus on the matter of renewable sources of energy, which is important, but I am saying that centrally and critically for us in this country, we need power, electricity.

We’ve got all these plans that have been announced to increase our generating capacity, and inevitably we are going to have to depend in part on coal. Indeed, as I was saying, we need nuclear, gas and biofuels, but centrally, where do these greenhouse gas emissions come from? They come from these power stations that are coal-fired. And indeed, precisely because we are concerned about that, our central focus has got to be on that.

Even if we said that we were going to produce 4% of our energy from renewable sources by year such and such, we’d still have the problem of the 96%. That’s where we’ve got to focus.

If I were to get agitated about anything, I’d get agitated about the 96%, not the 4%. I think that would make a bit more sense. Thanks, Madam Speaker.

  Measures by Government to create an inclusive information society

1. Mr S L Dithebe (ANC) asked the President of the Republic:

   What measures are being taken by the government to create an inclusive information society that contributes to building a better life for all? N588E

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Madam Speaker, as you know, the hon member’s question is about the information society. If I may, Madam Speaker, let me start by answering a question that the hon member didn’t ask, which is: What is the information society? In answer to that question, I will read what the World Summit on the Information Society said. I believe it is important, Madam Speaker, to understand what it is that has to be done and is being done with regard to this.

The World Summit on the Information Society said:

The digital revolution in information and communication technologies has created the platform for a free flow of information, ideas and knowledge across the globe. This revolution has made a profound impression on the way the world functions. The Internet has become an important global resource, a resource that is critical to both the developed world as a business and social tool and the developing world as a passport to equitable participation, as well as economic, social and educational development.

It went on to say:

The purpose of the World Summit on the Information Society is to ensure that these benefits are accessible to all while promoting specific advantages in areas such as e-strategies, e-commerce, e-governance, e- health, education, literacy, cultural diversity, gender equality, sustainable development and environmental protection. At the WSIS meeting in Geneva in December 2003, world leaders declared “our common desire and commitment to build a people-centred, inclusive and development-oriented information society, where everyone can create, access, utilize and share information and knowledge, enabling individuals, communities and peoples to achieve their full potential in promoting their sustainable development and improving their quality of life, premised on the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations and respecting fully and upholding the Universal Declaration of Human Rights”.

So, this is the information society. Therefore, to build this inclusive information society that the World Summit talked about, first of all, of course, first and foremost you need the necessary infrastructure as well as enabling policy and regulatory and institutional mechanisms. These, as hon members are aware, have been put in place. I’m particularly talking about the policies and the regulatory framework that have been put in place that include the laws that have been passed by this House.

We continue to address this matter of the infrastructure that is very, very necessary for the creation of that information society which must contribute to meeting the challenges of a better life for all. And that infrastructure process includes, of course, the launch of the second national operator, Neotel, which will undoubtedly bring competition and help to address this issue of high costs of telecommunications, which is one of the blockages in terms of the further expansion of that information society.

Further, Madam Speaker, the long-distance fixed services network currently owned by Eskom and Transnet will be transferred to a new infrastructure company as an effort to promote accessibility to and lowering the costs of telecommunications. The immediate capital investment in this regard is being undertaken to provide infrastructure which will also support Neotel.

In addition, Madam Speaker, the Broadband Infrastructure Company Bill, which Cabinet approved last week, will be tabled in Parliament during this session.

We have also made progress within the area of international connectivity. As hon members may know, one of the contributory factors to high telecommunication costs, and therefore slow blockages to the construction of that information society, is our reliance on limited access to international connectivity. Because of this limited broadband capacity, we therefore have decided to expand our access to under sea cables.

We are currently involved in the process of completing processes that will lead to the building of the Nepad ICT Broadband Infrastructure Network with 12 other countries that are signatories to the protocol related to this matter. Collaboration among several countries in the region on this unique project and its common and equal ownership by many African companies constitute an important element of Nepad. A cable is due to be operational in late 2008 or early 2009 and the protocol itself will soon be brought to Parliament for ratification.

The clock says I have run out of time, Madam Speaker.

Mr S L DITHEBE: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Comrade President, as you’ve indicated clearly in your response, the area of information and communication technologies is indeed a very wide one. However, let me also ask a follow-up question based on the issues that you have not covered in your response that relate to the open source software movement. There are countries such as Brazil and others in the developing world that have begun to embrace the open source software route so as to enable easy access by ordinary people of information based obviously on the existing infrastructure. My question, Comrade President, is whether government is pondering the possibility of formally introducing open source software in government departments and other areas of life so that we do not benefit only on the existence of the infrastructure that you have referred to and that which we have yet to put in place but that, in fact, with the aid of this open source software more people can access the information they need. Thank you.

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Yes, certainly, Madam Speaker, we have discussed the matter and in fact have agreed on it, precisely as the hon member indicates - the need for us to access and to use that open source software. So, it’s a matter that is decided already, precisely in the directions that you indicate.

But if I may, Madam Speaker, continue a little bit with what I was saying earlier with regard to the infrastructure, it is important for us to have all of that open source software and so on. If we don’t have the physical infrastructure to do this communication, then of course it doesn’t serve any purpose. I would want to say that given our bid for the square kilometre array, together with other deep space activities that are taking place in our country, we have decided to build the high capacity submarine cable on the West Coast. This will make a major, major impact in terms of the physical capacity and therefore the possibility of further developing that information society.

In connection with that infrastructure thing, the Minister of Communications declared last year that the Post Office would be used by the public to access this ICT infrastructure, and therefore this entails the modernisation of the Post Office infrastructure to increase the number of outlets as well as to ensure that the Post Office facilitates the provision, the use, the applications in terms of the use of the technology with regard to access to government services and so on.

We have also taken other decisions, which are very important with regard to this, which relate to the issue of digital migration. Therefore, there is a process that is taking place to move from analogue technology to digital technology, which, as hon members would be aware, is also critically important with regard to these matters of access and the usage of this information and communication technology. That, of course, would include a similar migration that is taking place at the SABC.

Other projects relate to this - and that includes the use of open source software technology that the hon member mentioned – but in the end what it amounts to is that indeed we are in the process of building the infrastructure that we need. We have the policies and we have the regulatory framework to deal with these things. Of critical importance is that we have to build up its physical capacity and then deal with the matter of the applications with regard to this. One of the challenges, for instance, is a schools access to ICT that is very much part of this information society. It is in fact still the minority of schools in our country that have computers. In many instances where they do not have computers it is because they don’t have electricity. So, where you have it, you can see the impact that it makes in teaching, learning, school administration with that kind of access. But that critically depends on our being able to meet the infrastructure requirements, whether it has to do with electricity or the availability of computers. Thank you very much, Madam Speaker.

Dr U ROOPNARAIN: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Mr President, indeed the global village enriches our lives, but it also carries some challenges with it. I’m concerned that English is almost the most favoured language on the Internet. How do we ensure the preservation and protection of our indigenous languages used by our most vulnerable citizens? How do we ensure that the media does not become an avenue for the proliferation of child pornography? How do we protect the most vulnerable, our children?

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Madam Speaker, I am going to appeal to the Minister of Communications to come to my aid with regard to some of these questions that have become very technical. I’m sure, hon member, you have seen the Google Search engine. Of course, one of the things about it is that in terms of access it has English, Afrikaans, Zulu, Sepedi and so on. So, if you don’t know English and you speak Sepedi, you can access the Internet because Google is there. This is a challenge that really faces us as a country – to develop the content ourselves that then goes into the Internet is our responsibility. It gives us the capacity, as the hon member says, of this digital revolution, and all this information and communication technology gives us the possibility in our own languages to ensure that our own cultures survive.

But we have to address the content issues ourselves. And we can. We can say that perhaps we are not paying sufficient attention to this matter. I know for instance of work that is being done at the CSIR to address this particular issue. So, there is work going on so that indeed we then don’t get overwhelmed by other cultures and languages and so on that indeed might be very dominant in terms of the Internet.

The question - that’s why I was appealing to the Minister of Communications

• with regard to how you deal with issues of the propagation of pornography and so on in the Internet, is a global problem. It’s a global challenge. Surely, we have to be concerned about it and, I think, there have been instances in this country where I have seen reports of young schoolchildren who have had access to pornographic material. Quite how you block it and how you deal with this, seeing it’s a global problem, is a problem. Technically, I don’t know how you do it, but that we have to address; it is obviously a matter that we can’t ignore.

Mr J P I BLANCHÉ: Madam Speaker, the President and I still have to learn how to surf the network. But I can understand that the President is doing better than me.

Madam Speaker, we have seen what Mr Mark Shuttleworth and other South Africans have achieved by being knowledgeable on using the network and developing the network. We have also noticed over the past few weeks what happens if people do not know and have not been retrained to use the network with eNatis, where our licensing departments are failing to hand out licences. My question is: Has the President received any report on his table from the department or from the Minister of Science and Technology and the Minister of Communications as to how to retrain our people, or to train our people, to make better use of the networks and to understand what’s going on there?

If one looks at what is happening in Sweden – our Parliamentary Technical Committee has just returned from Sweden – one finds that 2 500 PhDs are surfing the network daily. Now, if that is the level of intelligent people using the network in one nation, then South Africa and smaller nations lag enormously behind that. We know that India and China are also coming onto the network. So, the network is going to be extremely crammed. For that reason, small nations like ourselves should become acquainted with how to use it effectively and efficiently. My question is: Has there been a report on training and retraining our people to use the network as it is and to get onto that network?

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Yes, Madam Speaker, the hon member is correct with regard to the issue of the need for us to empower as many of our people as possible to know how to use this technology and how to access the Internet. The hon member is quite correct. I should have said with regard to the matter that was raised earlier, the open source technology, that we are working with Mark Shuttleworth on this thing. He has done an enormous amount of work on this issue. He is very much part of the people who are engaged with the government with regard to this issue.

The Cabinet recently looked at this matter that the hon member is raising, about skill with regard to this matter of access to the Internet and all of that. We looked at work that is being done across government with regard to these various levels of skills, and indeed we have taken a decision that quite soon the Deputy President will make a presentation to the Cabinet on this matter of the skills training at various levels, so that we have a more consolidated picture of what is being done, because things are being done with regard to the matter of training.

Therefore, we’ve discussed this issue and we will get the report, which will indicate to us what we need to do next. This is related also to the matter that the hon member knows of, that one of the areas in terms of the economy that we thought we should focus on is this business process outsourcing, which needs people who know how to use this technology. So, as I’m saying, that question is related to that. You need to train people up to a certain level with regard to that. But beyond that, you need to train people at other levels, including people like the PhDs in Sweden. So, there is indeed a focused programme where we are attending to this and we will look, as Cabinet, at the question in a comprehensive way, once the Deputy President submits that report. It is indeed work in progress. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr V C GORE: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Hon President, we would like to thank you for your very informative answer, as well as for reminding this House of the definition of what an information society is, so that we can understand what has been done or what is being done, so that we can understand what must be done.

The ID believes that one of the challenges in creating an inclusive information society is around, as you’ve identified, connecting marginalised communities, whether those communities are rural communities, poor communities or, in some instances, disabled communities. We would also like to suggest that it is not only the infrastructure but the content that we provide over the infrastructure to get to those marginalised communities

• in other words, hon President, bridging the digital divide in South Africa.

You’ve quite correctly identified that some of the platforms are in place, such as the Act, such as the policy, such as Infraco, Neotel and Telkom. But I think you are perhaps a little modest in leaving out the Presidential International Advisory Council on Information Society and Development. That is a very important mechanism in developing policy.

But despite all these platforms and policies and initiatives, we still lag very badly behind. Only 7% of our population has access to PCs, less than 3% of our population has access to the Internet and we have fewer than 900 000 broadband connections.

We have a long way to go, hon President. In other words, we have the framework in place, we have the theory in place, but how do we translate that into action? How do we roll out infrastructure and content to these marginalised communities, in particular poor communities and rural communities? How do we encourage the incumbents such as Telkom, Neotel and Infraco to roll out infrastructure and content to these rural communities? How do we encourage or force small companies and entrepreneurs to start their businesses in these areas so that they can deliver services to these marginalised communities? Thank you, Madam Speaker.

The PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLIC: Madam Speaker, the hon member is perfectly correct. It’s an important thing he has pointed to about the reality of the limited numbers of people in our country who have access to this technology. He’s therefore correct to say that we have a long way to go with regard to meeting this need. That’s why I quoted the example of schools, precisely to make the same point.

Madam Speaker, I’ve already spoken about the various elements of that. Even the broadband capacity in the country is not sufficient for what we need, which is why we are moving with regard to all of these matters. For instance, I mentioned the Transnet and Eskom cables coming into this Infraco as a part of addressing that, the new cables on the East Coast and the West Coast to help address this particular matter. With regard to access, you need the computers to be there at all of these particular points. With regard to the totality of that, for instance, we have decisions with regard to ensuring Internet access at schools, clinics and so on. Indeed, we want to work as quickly as possible to do that. But having put a computer in a clinic, you must be able to connect it. So, there must be electricity in the clinic. So, there is indeed a programme that seeks to address all of those matters.

The hon member would know also of the discussions that we had with the Minister of Communications and Telkom, which had to do with the matter of costs. Part of the reason for these low numbers that the hon member has quoted, correctly, is the high cost of the system. So, if you don’t have the money, you won’t be able to have this access. We have to reduce the costs.

So, yes, indeed, hon member, I agree with you that we have a long way to go and it is necessary to make these various interventions, some of which you mentioned, to make sure that we do indeed get that, because we are starting from a low base. But I think with the programmes that we have and the investments that we are determined to make, it should be possible. The Minister of Finance was at MIT in the United States in recent weeks. The reason he went there was because we were talking to people at MIT who are developing a very affordable computer. They conceived of it as a $100 computer, which could then go into the schools en masse. The people at MIT are already doing some work on the African continent, and the reason we went there was to invite them to come here so that we can have these very good but affordable computers to be spread out in their thousands, for instance in our school system.

So, all of this is work in progress and certainly focused on achieving the objectives that the hon member mentions, of ensuring broader access by as many of our people as possible to this technology. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

The SPEAKER: Order! That concludes questions to the President, and we thank the hon President. [Applause.] [Interjections.]

Mr H P CHAUKE: On a point of order, Madam Speaker: There is a problem in the Rules of the House or the Constitution on the issue of … [Interjections.] The SPEAKER: Order, hon member! Under what point on the Order Paper are you raising that point?

Mr H P CHAUKE: It is on the issue of the national chairperson of the largest opposition party, his role and position in the House. [Laughter.]

The SPEAKER: No, hon member! Please.

See also QUESTIONS AND REPLIES.

                          NOTICES OF MOTION

Mr W P DOMAN: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that I shall move on behalf of the DA:

That the House –

(1) debates the failure of leadership demonstrated by the Premier of the Western Cape and the MEC for Local Government and Housing in the province, who led a march on 16 March 2007 to demand that the multiparty government of the City of Cape Town stop implementing effective credit control measures, as is required in terms of the Municipal Systems Act of 2000; and (2) considers the implications for service delivery when government Ministers encourage ratepayers to stop paying for the services that they use.

[Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: Hon member, of course, as you are aware, those are issues that reside with the provincial and local government competencies. For you to raise those issues in this House is really unfair, to say the least.

Mr G G BOINAMO: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that I shall move on behalf of the DA:

That this House –

(1) debates the educational crisis at Khutsong, where children have not been receiving tuition for more than three months;

(2) notes that this crisis is caused by the ANC government with its new system of forced removals; and

(3) further notes that only the government can resolve this matter.

Thank you. Mr M WATERS: Madam Speaker, I hereby give notice that I intend moving on behalf of the DA:

That the House requests the hon Minister of Defence, in his capacity as chairperson of the ANC, to carry out the recommendation of President Mbeki, announced during question time on 17 May 2007, to brief this House on the fundraising initiatives of the Progressive Business Forum and the associated access to Ministers that the forum provides its members.

[Interjections.]

The House adjourned at 16:04.