WEDNESDAY, 24 OCTOBER 2007 __

                PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
                                ____

The House met at 15:03.

The Acting Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.

          UNAVAILABILITY OF MINISTERS DURING QUESTION TIME

                              (Ruling)

The ACTING SPEAKER: Order! Before we start with today’s proceedings, I have to address a matter that is of extreme concern, not only to the presiding officers but to every single member of this House who is seized with his or her obligations as a representative of the people of this country. The Constitution enjoins the National Assembly to scrutinise and oversee executive action. In addition, the Constitution determines that members of the Cabinet are accountable collectively and individually to Parliament for the exercise of their powers and performance of their functions. One of the most important procedures that the House has devised to fulfil this constitutional responsibility of holding the executive to account is Questions to Ministers, which takes place once a week on a rotational basis. The purpose of such questions is to give members the opportunity to obtain information from Ministers and to press for action with regard to particular issues.

It came to my attention earlier today that, owing to the unavailability of some Ministers to answer questions this afternoon, many of the questions on the Question Paper would have to stand over. This is completely unacceptable. [Interjections.] [Applause.]

Order, hon members!

Rule 109(3) of the Rules of the Assembly makes provision for a member to request the Speaker to place a question that had to stand over, owing to the absence of a Minister, on the Question Paper again for the next question session, subject to certain conditions. If approved, the rule also provides for an additional 30 minutes to be added to that question session. However, as a result of the large volume of questions that will have to stand over today, it would, for practical reasons, be impossible for the presiding officers to apply this rule, should members want to resort to it.

We are fully aware that Ministers are seized with important matters of state but it does not become of them to show such disregard for the House to which they have singular responsibility, both as members of the executive and members of this House. The dates on which questions will be put to specific clusters of Ministers are determined and communicated well in advance and should enjoy priority in the scheduling of Ministers’ programmes.

I therefore wish to rule … [Interjections.] Order, hon members! I therefore wish to rule, in terms of Rule 2(1), that, despite the inconvenience and cost, consideration will be given by the programme committee, in consultation with the Leader of Government Business, to schedule an additional question session for all the questions that have to stand over today. If agreed, the House expects the relevant Ministers to avail themselves for that session.

We will now continue with Questions to the Deputy President. As ruled, questions to the Ministers in cluster 2 who are not available will stand over until a decision has been taken by the Programme Committee. I thank you. [Applause.]

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL REPLY

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT

The ACTING SPEAKER: The first item on the Order Paper is Questions to the Deputy President. Members may press the “to talk button” at their desks if they wish to ask a supplementary question. Question 16 has been asked by hon V B Ndlovu. I now give the opportunity to the Deputy President to respond. Hon Deputy President … Viva Amabhokobhoko!

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Viva!

Effect of Children’s Act and Choice on Termination of Pregnancy Act on moral regeneration movement

1. Mr V B Ndlovu (IFP) asked the Deputy President:

   Whether the Children’s Act, Act 38 of 2005 and the Choice on Termination of Pregnancy Act, Act 92 of 1996, are negatively affecting the efforts of the moral regeneration movement; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, (a) how can the negative effects be remedied and (b) what are the further relevant details? N02528E

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you very much, Acting Speaker. The answer to Question 16 asked by hon Ndlovu would be a definite: No. The essence of the question is whether the Children’s Act and the Choice on Termination of Pregnancy Act contradict the efforts of the Moral Regeneration Movement, MRM. The mission of the Moral Regeneration Movement is to facilitate, encourage and co-ordinate programmes in every sector of society that will work towards restoring the moral fibre of our nation. The latter would be the responsibility of all of us in society, without exception. This is not an exclusive task of the MRM but it is the responsibility of all responsible adults. To view this otherwise would be passing the buck.

All of this happens in a democracy, where the Constitution guarantees freedom. The Choice on Termination of Pregnancy Act recognises that, in a constitutional democracy, freedom is a fundamental right. The Act emphasises the need for people to be informed before they take responsibility for these choices. In other words, the Choice on Termination of Pregnancy Act does not contradict the efforts of moral regeneration but rather seeks to promote responsibility in a situation where one is faced with the freedom of choice. It is not moral to bring into the world children that will experience extreme neglect – that is something we must also remember.

Building the moral fibre of a nation must take place in a context where there is freedom of choice and where citizens take responsibility for it. Contrary to belief in certain quarters, government does not seek to prescribe to anyone whether he or she should terminate pregnancies or not. The aim, rather, would be to inform them of the choices available and the responsibility thereof. Of course, we also offer counselling.

The state also promotes the provision of nonmandatory and nondirective counselling before and after termination. The greatest enabler of rights and freedom is individual responsibility. Without personal responsibility, rights and freedoms are meaningless.

Similarly, regarding the Children’s Act, our main aim there relates to the care and protection of children, parental responsibility and the rights and provisions for matters such as children’s courts, adoption, child abduction and surrogate motherhood. The Act calls for prioritisation of the best interests of the child, the right of the child to be able to participate in any matter concerning that child, children living with disability or chronic illness and the child’s rights of access to court.

Again, the Children’s Act does not contradict the efforts of MRM. The issue of responsibility takes centre stage there. As indicated previously, the Act indicates what choices there are, so that individuals can assume the required level of responsibility. I thank you.

Mr V B NDLOVU: Madam Acting Speaker, hon Deputy President, I want to talk about the moral fibre – “ubuntu ngqo” [authentic ubuntu]. If we say it is the responsibility of a child, a 12-year-old child, and that it is her responsibility or his responsibility without the parent or guardian, are we still talking about the moral fibre of the family? Secondly, if we talk about same-sex marriages, maybe I am lost, but in the African situation and within an understanding of “ubuntu phaqa” [pure ubuntu], what does that really mean? If we want to build ubuntu, moral regeneration, the fibre of ubuntu, both, inside all of us, are we really not contradicting ourselves when we say we are going back to our roots as ubuntu?

The ACTING SPEAKER: Order! Hon member, your time has expired

Mr V B NDLOVU: Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, let me start with the last question. Maybe I will also pose a question – it’s question time, so I can also put a question across to the member. If we discriminate against people because of their choice and sexual orientation, I don’t think that to discriminate against those people is ubuntu. I would also go on to say that I had a conversation with a parent who has two children. One of those children is a habitual criminal … “utsotsi woqobo, umgulukudu” [a real hardcore thug] while the other child is gay, and both of them are boys. The gay child is well-behaved, a child that any parent would love to have.

The parent said to me that what she has learnt from her two children is that the most important thing is the inner self of the child. Regarding this child who has killed people, who gives them immense pain as a family, if they had anything that could help, they would disown that child. But the other child, who other people discard because of his sexual orientation, is the best thing that has ever happened to her. What should I say to that parent? So, it’s not that easy to make these decisions.

At the end of the day, when we talk about ubuntu, it’s about the extent to which we are able to love, work with and respect one another in a manner that does not force any of our choices on one another. If you have problems with same-sex marriages, it still does not give you the right to be horrible to those people. So I don’t claim to have an answer but I also don’t think we should seek for easy answers to these kinds of questions.

On the issue of parents, children will always be children to us.

Ngisho nawe uqobo njengoba umdala kangaka nje nginesiqiniseko sokuthi kumama wakho ungumntwana. [I am certain that, even you, old as you are; you are still a child to your mother.]

So how much more would this apply to a 12-year-old? There is a possibility in law for children to make certain decisions guided by some adults, because when they go to a clinic they find adults there who would help them. It’s not that I don’t have a problem with that decision, by the way - I must also be outright. But having said that, I just think that we should not give an impression that we are telling children to go and get advice over the counter, where they might not get appropriate advice. Nurses are adults and the people that these children will go to are also adults.

Clearly, this does not mean that we are saying that parents must get out of the way and that children must have their own way. We have to find a way of managing these kinds of difficult circumstances in a manner that ensures that parents are not made to feel or even to think that they can abandon responsibility. I always say to parents: Out of all the things that we do we as parents and adults, even if we are overachieving or if there are things that we would like to delegate, because we think other people can do these things better, there is one thing that we can never delegate, and that is parenting.

Ungayenza yonke into, uphumelele, kodwa uma abantwana bakho benza izinto ezingalungile bayobuzwa kuwe, ngoba ngeke wathatha umsebenzi wokukhulisa abantwana bakho uwunike omunye umuntu. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[You can be successful in everything you do but if your children do bad things you will have to account for their actions, because you cannot relinquish the responsibility of raising your children to another person.]

So this does not take away that responsibility and the relationship between a parent and a child. Ms J A SEMPLE: Madam Speaker, Madam Deputy President, I would like to congratulate you on your sporting garb today. Viva Amabhokobhoko, viva!

Madam, Deputy President, there were media reports this morning about a father in the Nkomati region of Mpumalanga who allegedly committed incest with his 12-year-old daughter. His daughter aged 12 years has borne two children by him. Clearly, this is wrong. And I want to know what the Moral Regeneration Movement is doing about enforcing or enhancing programmes to teach actual morality in the home, because it seems we have lost morality in the home altogether? This is a parent’s responsibility. Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, I want to start by emphasising that the Moral Regeneration Movement is made up of a handful of people who are all volunteers. We cannot expect them to take responsibility for all of these issues in our society. You and I have a responsibility to address these issues within our families and within our homes. Those of us who are in our church structures and those of us who are educators – all of us, have to do what we have to do in order to address these issues.

Having said that, I obviously would condemn this kind of behaviour. It is just unbelievable. It’s horrible for it to happen once and it’s even unthinkable that it happened twice.

Yesterday we had a board meeting of the MRM where we were discussing these vexing questions and the capacity of this institution to work along with society to address these issues. We have decided that we would need to step up publicity in order to create discourse and discussions in communities. In particular, if we can have it our way, we would like to have such discussion within families, so that we can force families to have this discussion.

I can’t imagine what the situation is in that family where that child is. Who lives with that child? Who accepts that man as a member of the family and his life simply goes on while that has traumatised this poor child? There has to be a grandmother, aunt, cousin or somebody who should stand up for this child and stand up to this man. I think, sometimes the absence of these strong figures and moral voices within families is probably the worst thing that is happening in society.

So, in the MRM, recognising that the family is an important entity, we are therefore working on a project that we hope is going to take off, through which we want to send messages on a regular basis on these discussions. Hon Minister, I will ask you here in Parliament now and again: “What did you discuss with your family today on that subject that we had on TV?” I will be doing that so as to check whether it is achieving what we are trying to achieve. Thank you.

Rev K R J MESHOE: Acting Speaker, Deputy President, contrary to what the Deputy President has said, many parents believe that the two Acts in question not only affect the efforts of the Moral Regeneration Movement but that they also undermine their own moral values, as opposed to the values of government. Giving children as young as 12 years of age the right to carry the responsibility for medical treatment and surgical operations, including termination of pregnancy, definitely, in their eyes, undermines the efforts and principles of MRM, which include, fighting against, I quote, “… immoral behaviour in our communities and public institutions.”

Now, if these two Acts do not contradict the MRM, as the Deputy President has replied, what does it mean to refer to immoral behaviour in our communities in one of the principles of the MRM? I thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, I think I would like to state that I respect the views of those parents on these issues. Obviously, they are entitled to think the way they think but I would hope that, as a priest, you would counsel those parents to continue to do what they think is in the best interests of their children.

Mof D M MOROBI: Motlatsa Spikara, Motlatsa Mopresidente, ke a leboha ka karabo ya hao e batsi ya ho hlalosa botho. Empa ke sa na le potso mona ya hore … [Mrs D M MOROBI: Hon Acting Speaker, the Hon Deputy President, thanks you for your broad response, but I still need to pose a question here …]

… can you share with this House, Deputy President, how you will ensure that social programmes aimed at strengthening the moral fibre of society are effectively implemented, particularly in rural areas, and ensuring that information reaches the deeper rural areas? What monitoring mechanisms are in place?

I also want to share with this House that this House in 2005 passed the Children’s Act and in 1996 the Choice on Termination of Pregnancy Act was also passed. The Choice on Termination of Pregnancy Act seeks to put an end to the backyard abortions, which have caused numerous deaths. Regarding the Children’s Act, an amending Bill is currently being considered and that law should be completed tomorrow. This law seeks to strengthen the family and the partnership between the family and the state, ensuring that children are properly brought up. These regulations reaffirm the role of the family. Thank you, Deputy Speaker.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon member, in order to reach out to rural areas, we have decided to work very closely with the National House of Traditional Leaders and to involve traditional leaders as well. I am very thankful for their co-operation. In fact, as we speak now, we are engaged in a programme in which we visit some of the traditional houses in the provinces to engage with them and also to explain and get information from them on how we could make these programmes work.

Just last week I was in Venda, in Vhembe. The aim of that visit was, again, to engage with that rural community and to look at how we could work with the traditional leaders in that area. That forum was convened through the National House of Traditional Leaders. I have to say that, on that occasion, I was made Vho-makhadzi. Those who understand Tshivenda would know that that’s a very important title.

We are also working with municipalities. We are decentralising the work of the MRM, something that we discussed extensively at the MRM board meeting. We decided that, in order to ensure that we are able to gauge the extent to which we are reaching out, we are going to call an intergovernmental consultative meeting with all provinces so that we can look at the extent to which they have been able to decentralise, as well as the best practices in each province.

I have to say that there are some provinces where you will find that the provincial government, the municipality, the traditional leaders, the youth and the church are actually all working together. In such an instance things work much better. After we have done that consultation, we would like to share with hon members our insights into those communities where we think MRM is making progress so that, hopefully, some of you can also use that information in your constituencies. Outcomes of binational commissions led by Deputy President

1. Ms F Mahomed (ANC) asked the Deputy President:

What were and are the outcomes of binational commissions led by herself
to countries like China, Sweden and Norway?         N02525E

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you very much, hon member. The essence of this question is to gauge the outcomes of the binational commissions, which were led by the Deputy President in China, Sweden and Norway. I do want to start by saying that we do not have a binational commission with the Kingdom of Norway. So, when we do work with them it will be on a working visit. But we have shelved that for now.

President Hu Jintao expressed his satisfaction regarding his regular contact with President Mbeki, which has also happened at the multilateral fora such as the UN and the G8+5. President Hu Jintao also extended an invitation again to President Mbeki to visit China next year so that they can assess the extent to which this binational relations and commissions are working.

China has also given its support to the Partnership for Growth and Development Project, which was a proposal we took with us to China and put it on their table for discussion. We have agreed that through that programme we will encourage Chinese companies to co-operate with South African companies, especially in the field of mining, manufacturing of household appliances and manufacturing in general, specifically to do value addition of minerals that are produced in South Africa. The idea is to increase value addition of these minerals in South Africa by Chinese companies and also to broaden the scope of investment that is aimed at manufacturing in South Africa by Chinese companies. Chinese companies will actively be looking at increasing their investment and making use of the China Africa Development Fund of $5 billion, which China has established, for its companies to invest in Africa.

We have also agreed to have joint working programmes aimed at exchanging lessons learnt on the work our two countries do in poverty eradication and supporting one another in both countries.

We have also agreed to co-operate and co-ordinate the celebration of the 10th anniversary of the establishment of the diplomatic relations between the two countries. The events will also form part of a three-year strategy to market Brand South Africa in the People’s Republic of China. The branding of South Africa is aimed on our side as South Africa to make our country much better known in this significant market with the hope that it will increase our capacity to be active in those economies. In the People’s Republic of China, this celebration will involve the private sector, the sporting fraternity, the arts, the youth and women so that we are also able to strengthen people-to-people relations. There were other results coming out of this binational, some of which were the culmination of work that had been done by the different departments. These include co-operation in the area of agriculture, which will also lead into an aquaculture centre at Gariep Dam that will train South African farmers in fishing. As we speak now, there are South African farmers in China to teach the Chinese to cultivate apples.

In terms of the scientific exchange programme, we also agreed to exchange scientists. The South African scientists are going to visit China annually and in that programme we will help them to improve their livestock programme. We will also do research together on some of the salient features of enriching our livestock programmes.

The flagship programme that the scientists will also do with their Chinese counterpart is a health project, which is in the area of telemedicine. We are also increasing on the human resource front. We also want to encourage our students in South Africa to learn the Chinese languages, because if China is going to be one of the biggest trading nations in the world it is important that our young people know how to speak the languages so that they are able to compete internationally - international cannot be international without China. So, we are going to pilot the teaching of Mandarin in 50 South African high schools and those who do well will stand a chance of studying for their degrees in Chinese or in China so that the mixture of graduates that we have in South Africa with overseas education should not only mean Europe and North America. Of course, we also signed some memorandums of agreements. One was on minerals and energy and the other was on co-operation in human resource development.

In Sweden, where we also have a binational commission, we noted the increasing trade between the two countries and the growth in the number of Swedish companies that are present in South Africa. It was agreed that efforts are needed to promote exports from South Africa to Sweden. In that regard as well, like in China, there is a need for us to enhance our manufacturing capacity so that we have more goods that we are exporting to such countries. Colleagues will be aware that in the Swedish economy one of the strengths that they have is the automotive sector. The Swedish companies therefore are important for us because we are also a country, which has strength in that sector, but in particular now we were looking at how we could strengthen the presence of the auto components industry in South Africa.

We were able to also look at co-operation and at sharing experiences and expertise in the labour market policies. A follow-up visit in this regard will also be led by Minister Mdladlana in November.

We discussed HIV/Aids and the co-operation that we have and the strengthening of the partnership in these two countries. [Interjections.] The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! The noise level is unbearable.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: To this end, we agreed on a new strategic framework that will be elaborated on from next year. We visited the Karolinka institute, which is involved with the medical university in Sweden and is the home of the Nobel Prize for medicine. They are doing excellent work on HIV/Aids, which we have an interest in. Of course it is indeed a significant university because it is a global university and it boasts producing one PhD student a day in different parts of the world. We would like our students to be counted amongst those students that they are working with.

In line with our commitment to further promote gender equality and the advancement of women in our countries, including in areas where there is conflict and postconflict - because both countries are active in peace- keeping - we actually agreed that there is a need for us to find mechanism of dealing with the challenges that women face in that regard.

We agreed on co-operation in the 2010 Fifa Soccer World Cup. In that regard we are going to look at the transfer and exchange of technology in disaster management and the kinds of disasters that are associated with such big events. [Time expired.]

Mrs F MAHOMED: Thank you, Madam Acting Speaker. Hon Deputy President, I am quite sure that we all appreciate the detailed response on this very important issue. However, firstly, I would further like to know if there are monitoring and evaluation systems in place to monitor the effectiveness of the outcomes of each of these bi-nationals. I think you would also agree with me that policy dialogue and co-operation must and should translate itself into real change and in real terms. Secondly, it would also be interesting to hear how these bi-national commissions benefit and improve the lives of women in South Africa. I thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Speaker, let’s just look at the binational with China. For example, the fact is that at present there are hundreds of students that are studying in China. South African scientists are able to learn and co-operate with their colleagues in China. There are also the ordinary people of China who, through these binational co-operations, are also able to benefit from the good relations at government to government level.

The attraction of investment, whether it is we investing in China or China investing in South Africa, translates into jobs and contributes to the growth of our economy. So, yes, there are benefits for ordinary people.

But even further in the case, for instance, of benefits to women in a country like Sweden, we are working with the Swedish, both NGOs and government in a number of developments at activities that are undertaken in South Africa by NGOs. Among some of the initiatives that impressed me significantly is an initiative that is undertaken in the schools in KZN by a programme, called the STAR, which is a programme that supports education of young people with a particular focus on girl children – and I’m sure Mr Meshoe would like this – because it is a programme about building the inner strength of young people to say no to the many things that we think young people should not get involved in. It is showing tremendous success. Teachers in KZN, most of them women, are participating in that programme, and they say that through that programme they themselves have grown tremendously as persons and that in the process they have also been able to provide very good leadership to their students and to the parents in the communities that they work in. This is just but one of the initiatives that involve grassroots Swedish people because the person who has started this programme is an ordinary private citizen of Sweden with the support of the Swedish government. We are again happy that the government of KZN is also supporting such an initiative.

If I could also add that during the visit to Sweden we also took with us South African artists who had an opportunity to perform, thanks to the support of the Department of Arts and Culture, and that went a long way towards projecting South African culture amongst the Swedish people. Those two groups that we travelled with before we left already had invitations to go back to Sweden to perform. I hope that makes them smile all the way to the bank. [Applause.] Mrs S M CAMERER: Deputy Speaker, may I also add my compliments to the Deputy President on her Springbok couture that makes her look ten years younger. [Laughter.] Whilst it is certainly important for the Deputy President to engage with China, Sweden and Norway in bi-national commissions at Deputy Presidential level in view of the weight that the government and the Department of Foreign Affairs gives to our relationship with African countries, does the Deputy President not believe that we need to raise the profile of our bi-national relations with African countries as well? We have diplomatic relations with some 30 African countries at this point and we have bi-national commissions at presidential level, with only two – Algeria and the DRC – and at Deputy Presidential level with Nigeria - all three of these countries being major oil producers. I believe we have bilateral commissions at Ministerial level with Ghana, Tunisia and Ruanda. I would like to put it to the Deputy President that surely her involvement in more of these bilateral relations will be a boost to this effort of benefiting our country and Africa as a whole as well. Perhaps you could also enlighten us as to your involvement and your experiences in these commissions in Africa. Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Acting Speaker, I think we also have to add countries such as Mozambique, of which I am not sure if the relation is at presidential level, and Namibia which is at a presidential level. But I must add that not all countries like these binational commissions, because they think that they give them more work and that they would rather keep the relations at a normal bilateral relation.

So, it doesn’t only depend on us in order for us to raise these relations at higher level. But I take your point that we can always increase and enhance the work that our Department of Foreign Affairs do in Africa. I must also add that the private sector in South Africa is very active in Africa and that it therefore gives us a lot of opportunities to contribute significantly to the strengthening of the relations between us and our African counterparts.

With regard to state-owned enterprises, the hon member will be aware that already many of them had their mandate reviewed in order to allow them to contribute actively in support of the growing economies of Africa. We all agree that as other neighbouring and generally African economies grow, that obviously is also a big benefit for South Africa. With Eskom we are launching the infrastructure fund. So it should not only be the work that we do at bilateral or binational commissions but we must actually stimulate different ways of working with the African countries. For me, something that I would like us to work more on is people-to-people relations between ourselves and our African countries so that our relations with our African brothers and sisters are not dependent on government and that as ordinary citizens we actually also facilitate such co-operation. I think that we can probably do more in the areas of arts, culture, sports, youth exchange and academic exchange. Thank you.

Mr V B NDLOVU: Thank you, Madam Acting Speaker. Madam Deputy President, on a trade front there were products from China that were withdrawn in some of the countries, including South Africa. These included food withdrawn from the shelves because of some problems. And on the textile front we were flooded as a country with some of the so-called cheap stuff from China. How is the relationship on those fronts because most of the time when we deal with these people we include the trade, which will involve the employment of the people? How is the relationship when these things of theirs are being withdrawn and cancelled or sent back?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon member, o se ke wa re batho ke … [these people …] Ungathi abo. [These people.] Our colleagues in other countries. Musa ukuthi abo. [These people.] It is not a nice thing to say.

Yes, hon member, we do raise these issues. Actually, our Department of Agriculture has established relations with China in order to address some of these issues because they also have concerns about us. So, it’s a mutual thing.

I am not familiar with some of the products that were withdrawn. But what I would like to say is that the agreement that we have with China on textile is actually working very well, contrary to the fears that were raised in certain quarters. Initially, as you will remember, many of the retailers were against this agreement. We only had a better working relationship and co-operation from the manufacturers but now we are actually finding that some of the things that the prophets of doom said were supposed to go wrong are not going wrong.

It’s not perfect but we have seen a significant boost of the manufacturing of textiles in certain categories in South Africa. Again, this is because we were able to raise these issues of the flooding of certain products from China to South Africa. We must also be realistic that we cannot fight against Chinese cheap imports – they have a population of a billion people and more. So, we have real issues that we cannot even stand against.

Following on the previous question, hon member, I just want to emphasise that with regard to the co-operation around Southern Africa and Africa, tomorrow I am going to the University of Roma in Lesotho – my alma mater. We are going to get together there to look at how we can strengthen the working of the Southern African universities, using the people forming an alumni bond that is active and thinking not just about the universities they went to but about what is in the best interest of SADC. I hope that that is also another opportunity we have as citizens of Southern Africa to boost these relations between and amongst the people of Southern Africa. Thank you.

Mr M T LIKOTSI: Thank you, Madam Acting Speaker. Madam Deputy President, seeing that there are these bi-national co-operations with China that result in investment of the Chinese in the country and the creation of jobs, how are the South African-born Chinese classified in our population seeing that they do not fall under whites, coloureds or Africans? This I am asking because there is a huge outcry from the Chinese community in my constituency that they feel being marginalised because they do not know where they stand at the present moment. In the past they used to fall under the grouping of Asians. Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon member, you must tell those Chinese in your constituency that they are Africans and that they are South Africans. That’s where they must stand. In the past they were all kinds of things. Now they are just Africans and they are South Africans. [Applause.]

     Identification of chartered accountancy as a priority skill

1. Mrs C Dudley (ACDP) asked the Deputy President:

   Whether the Joint Initiative on Priority Skills Acquisition (Jipsa) has identified chartered accountancy as a priority skill; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what measures have been taken in this regard? N02531E

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Madam Acting Speaker, this question asks about the shortage of skills in the field of chartered accountancy, and the steps that we are taking to develop our people in this area.

Well, there is overwhelming evidence that we do have a skills shortage in South Africa and that we need critical interventions. At the same time, there is also evidence that even where we do have skills, sometimes people are underutilised by employers. For the Accelerated and Shared Growth Initiative for South Africa to achieve its objective of halving unemployment and poverty by 2014, clearly this is an area that we need to pay attention to. In the identification of areas that need intervention we have identified the category that we call cross-cutting skill, which includes ICT, finance and project management. So, the support for chartered accountants will emerge out of our intervention on finance.

In order to address the shortage of experience and skills needed, therefore, in the chartered accountancy profession, we addressed the root cause, starting from school level right through to higher learning institutions and, finally, to the workplace, which would be the placement programme that we do. In addressing these challenges as government and private sector, we are supporting initiatives, some of which are driven and managed by the sector and the sector education training authority for Finance, Accounting, Management Consulting, and other Financial Services called FASSET, and the SA Institute of Chartered Accountants, SAICA.

One of the transformation programmes run by SAICA is the Thuthuka Education Upliftment Fund, TEUF. The programme is geared towards transforming membership demographics of the chartered accountancy profession to reflect the country’s population and demographics in terms of both race and gender. Thuthuka has initiatives at the school level, but its core programmes are aimed at higher education institutions. The Auditor-General has contributed to the increase in the number of black accounting professionals through the Thuthuka Bursaries Fund, which is managed by SAICA on behalf of the Office of the Auditor-General. The fund has already assisted 1 638 learners, since it was launched three years ago.

SAICA also secured funding from other sources to ensure that the shortage of professionals in the field is addressed. The funding includes that from the private sector but also includes support from the Department of Trade and Industry and the Department of Education as well as private individuals. There is also a programme, again driven by SAICA, which is based at the University of Fort Hare and the University of Limpopo.

Thuthuka, in its holistic approach, is also focused on ensuring that those children that might not have exposure to the workings of the profession because they come from previously disadvantaged and currently disadvantaged backgrounds are brought into camps during holidays and work readiness situations so that they are enabled to have a sense of how this career works. Such programmes are actually very successful.

There is also the introduction of a learnership for disabled learners by SAICA, and again, this is meant to enhance the number of disabled people that can come into this profession. SAICA is also looking at a systematic way of using life-long learning in order to increase the number of people that are in the profession.

Individual set firms in the sector who are collaborating with us in the Joint Initiative for Priority Skills Development, JIPSD, have also answered the call. One of the notable ones is the KPMG programme, which has taken on board 40 women. Many of them have already finished the programme.

Many of them were young women with a B Comm degree who would have been sitting at home, and some of them were contemplating taking any job that came their way. Some of them have now been taken under the wings of KPMG and they are on the way to becoming accountants or CAs and there is an intention to broaden this programme as other auditing firms are also coming on board.

SAICA has various structures and programmes in place that offer mentoring and support services to new and existing accounting firms. This includes the training outside the public practice top, which is a financial management route, and training inside the public practice tip. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, before we go on, I think you will all agree with me that the noise level is unbearable.

Sizonicela bakithi ukuthi nihambe niyobamba imihlangano emahhovisi enu. [I will therefore appeal to those hon members to go and hold those private meetings in their own offices.]

We are going to ask you to please continue your business in the offices or elsewhere so that we remain with people that are interested in the responses from the Deputy President. Hon members, we are appealing to you. The Whips are too relaxed, while we struggle to get order in the House. We are appealing to all the Whips from both sides of the House to assist us in maintaining order.

Is that agreed? Are we all going to be as honourable as our titles suggest? [Interjections.] Thank you. I knew I could always count on you.

Mrs C DUDLEY: Madam Acting Speaker, hon Deputy President, regarding your recent calls to chartered accountant companies to increase their intake of interns, I just wondered if you had any idea how that was going, and whether that has delivered any fruits? Also, do you have any incentives or measures in place to encourage these companies to do what you’ve asked? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: We don’t have a total as yet of how many companies already responded, but as I said, since the KPMG’s programme started, we are seeing more companies in the auditing industry, especially, who are increasing the number of people that they are taking. At some point we will report on how many students or young people have been taken on.

We don’t have specific incentives for these companies. The biggest incentive for these companies must be the fact that they are training a labour force for themselves. I really do not want us as government to get into a mentality where the private sector thinks that when they invest in training, they are doing government a favour. They are doing something that they have to do. There is a skills crisis, not just in South Africa, but all over the world. If they do not invest in training competent workers for themselves so that they become more profitable, then they are really passing the buck.

Having said that, because it is our responsibility as government also to invest in people, we will not neglect and abdicate our responsibility. In our scholarship programmes, the scholarships that are supported and funded by government, we have a particular category where we actually support students in finance. I must also say that I was pleasantly surprised recently to note that at the University of the Western Cape, the number of students that are graduating with degrees in a finance-related field has increased quite significantly.

In fact, I think that UWC now graduates the largest number of black students in the accounting and commercial profession, as it were. That is something that I think is quite significant: what was a “bush” university is now a leader in producing competent people for the economy.

Mr B M MKONGI: Madam Acting Speaker, I know that the challenge of chartered accountancy is a big one in South Africa, especially for young black students. However, in addition to that, what are other critical skills that the Joint Initiative for Priority Skills Acquisition has identified that have made progress? If progress is being hindered, what could be the reasons, and what is government doing to make sure that it fast-tracks this issue to ensure that it eliminates those things that are hindering progress?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon member, that’s a big question, because the number of areas in which we are pushing for the significant increase of skills is quite a broad area. Engineers are the ones that we talk about, but really, engineers now have become a euphemism for skills in the built environment, because when you have an engineer, then you need a quantity surveyor and an architect, etc. So, it’s a whole area of related skills.

We are pushing for educators. As you know, in the last Budget, we put in quite a bit of money to increase the number of teachers, especially in languages, in mathematics and in science. We need social workers, and therefore, we have increased the number of people that we are training as social workers.

I just want to emphasise that we must never be misunderstood that when we emphasise the skills that are needed in the private sector and in commerce, we are downplaying the skills that we need in humanities and the social sciences, because there can never be a nation that is made up of people who are mixing concrete and measuring bridges in the absence of people who care for the people. So, that balance is also very important.

The other point I want to emphasise is that we are not only talking about the high-level skills which we need and which are very important, but in South Africa we have a high demand also for paralegals, paramedics and that category of workers who get the job done quickly. The most important thing in those areas is the ability to care and do the jobs with compassion and, therefore, people learn on the job, and add the skills.

South Africa is also a country with a fantastic capacity in the area of arts and culture. The investment in training in that area for our own consumption and for export of South African culture is also an area where we can be doing much more, because every other South African has got some artistic capacity. Even here in the House, if I ask us to form a choir … ungazibonela nje indlela abantu baseNingizimu Afrika abacula kahle ngayo … [you can see for yourself that South Africans sing very well.] … and we will be led by Derek! [Applause.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Deputy Minister Hanekom, are you available, and would you like to be in that choir? [Laughter.]

Mr V B NDLOVU: Madam Deputy Speaker and Deputy President, I just want to know something: There are companies that don’t want to take on these professionals when they don’t have experience. They always say that they want them to have at least five years’ experience, or whatever. How are we going to help these professionals, especially the black professionals, who are just coming out of the colleges and universities, to assist them to find jobs, specifically because there is a relationship between the Presidency and the business people, in order for them not to discriminate against these people who have just come out from tertiary education? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thanks. The initiative in the Joint Initiative for Priority Skills Acquisition where we place unemployed graduates and newly graduated technikon and university students is aimed at making companies deal with the fact that people need to start somewhere. We cannot always ask for experience if we don’t give people an opportunity to make a first start.

A lot of the internship programmes are also aimed at achieving that. The numbers are not as good as we would like them to be, and that is why we are publicising it, and when you yourselves, hon members, talk about these issues, you actually help us to highlight the need for these internships.

We also need government to do more than what we are doing. Even as government, we are not doing enough when it comes to the placement of and providing experience for these young people. Some departments are doing well, I must say. Thank you.

Mrs D VAN DER WALT: Madam Deputy Speaker, I am coming back to the question of chartered accountants and the shortage thereof. When the Lord Mayor of the City of London recently visited South Africa, he pointed out that South Africa, in order to develop economically, should have about 100 000 chartered accountants. Yesterday, in the NCOP, the Minister of Finance, Trevor Manuel, elaborated on these figures when he added that South Africa has about 26 000 registered chartered accountants, but that about 6 500 had gone overseas in search of better career prospects.

This suggests that South Africa has a shortfall of about 80 000 auditors … [Interjections.] … let me finish my question, please, and yet the Chairperson of the Employment Equity Commission, Mr Jimmy Manyi, wants South Africans to believe that there is no skills shortage. Now, as head of Jipsa, Madam Deputy President, will you please tell us who to believe – Mr Manyi or the Minister of Finance, Trevor Manuel?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Believe both of them, they are good men. [Applause.] Thank you.

I need to explain what Mr Manyi means. Mr Manyi argues that even though we have a shortage in terms of the numbers, of the people that are already trained, we are underutilising them. There is empirical evidence – we did the research ourselves in Jipsa – that the reason why we have unemployed graduates with appropriate degrees, is because there are people with qualifications but the industry shuns them. Sometimes they don’t want to take them, because they don’t have experience. They don’t want to take them because they come from historically black universities. So, they’ve got attitudes towards people who qualify for this. Let’s use everybody who is available, and let’s enhance their skills. Let’s invest, as the private sector and employers and also as the public sector, in the enhancing of the capacity of people who already have a qualification because, by getting a qualification at a tertiary level, in particular, you demonstrate capacity to conceptualise. You demonstrate a certain high level of cognitive skills. To tell me that somebody, because they are from this university or that university, is not good enough, is what makes a person like Mr Manyi mad. I think he has got a point there. He may express it in his own way, but he’s got a point. Give the man a break. [Applause.]

  Application of principle of freedom of the press and other media

1. Dr P W A Mulder (VF Plus) asked the Deputy President:

   Whether the principle of the freedom of the press and other media, as set out in section 16(1)(a) of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, Act 108 of 1996, is still being applied consistently; if not, why not; if so, what actions and measures guarantee that this freedom is not restricted?

    N02532E
   

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: This question wants us to say whether we think that the freedom of the press in South Africa is facing a crisis. Our assessment as government is that freedom of the media continues to thrive in our country. As the hon member knows, the principle of media freedom is enshrined in our Constitution and nobody can take that away, be it the state entities or any individual citizen. Only the courts are vested with the authority to interpret this application of freedom in accordance with provisions of the Constitution and any subsidiary legislation. In fact, this free flowing debate that we are now having on this matter and the similar debates that take place in the nation are due to a strong culture of freedom of speech and freedom of the press in South Africa.

Government fully supports freedom of the media and appreciates that this is one of the cornerstones of our democracy. The ultimate guarantor of this freedom is in the Constitution itself, and the rigorous application of the letter and the spirit of this basic law of the land by the judiciary in instances where there may be attempts to restrict such freedom or violate the Constitutional limitations that are attached to such freedom, is guaranteed. The leadership of the South African National Editors’ Forum in a recent debate on national radio confirmed that freedom of the media in South Africa is not under any threat. I would also add that since 1994, South Africa has been ranked as one of the countries of the world with the best environment for press freedom. In a recent release of global freedom rankings by the Freedom House, an NGO based in Washington, it ranked South Africa as one of the countries with the best possible freedom of the press. I don’t know where this is coming from. Dr P W A MULDER: Madam Acting Speaker and Madam Deputy President, I welcome the statement from the Deputy President. I think it is very important that we get that on record. Let me tell you where it comes from. As an African state, the government should accept that South Africa is viewed through more critical eyes by the world than what the case would be with other states. Of course, these are double standards. I get angry with this. Especially the Western media seemed to be looking at this and therefore we should be extra careful not to, in any sense, reinforce such negative perceptions. The rumour for example, that Mr Mondli Makhanya, the editor of the Sunday Times will be arrested reinforced the perception that South Africa is somewhat like Zimbabwe and does not tolerate criticism and press freedom. Or maybe the same goes for the rumour, for example, that the police experienced pressure to quickly finalise and act on the investigation into Mr Makhanya. These are the type of things that do this. If the government does believe in press freedom, why does the government then threaten newspapers, which criticise them, that they will be punished by the government through the withdrawal of government advertisements? I am not talking about ANC party advertisements but of government advertisements to be withdrawn from these newspapers, as was reported in the media?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: As he himself has said, it was a mere rumour. We are not rumourmongers here. We are hon members. If there are editors who decide to publish a rumour as a story, then it is shocking. Whose freedom is then actually being threatened: our freedom or that of the media? You be the judge.

On the issue of the withdrawal of advertisements, there is the issue of freedom of association. The government has a right to advertise wherever it wants to do so but having said that, I don’t know about the threats that you are talking about, necessarily. Having said that, I really think that government departments must advertise where they think that they’ll get optimum value. It is also double standards for us as citizens that when editors write stories that are blatantly untrue, we do not chastise them for actually doing so. The concern that you have that African countries, including South Africa, are projected in a particular light, actually feeds into that frenzy. When we as citizens do not protect the image of our country by calling them to order, we are also beginning to apply the double standards that we do not want others to apply. I take the point that you made.

Mr S N SWART: Thank you, Acting Speaker. Deputy President, the ACDP appreciates your assurance that there is no attempt to curtail media freedom in South Africa. However, we had the Films and Publications Amendment Bill that was passed by Cabinet and prior to the portfolio committee’s intervention, it allowed for pre-publication censorship. There are still constitutional concerns from the National Editors’ Forum on this Bill. Would you comment on this? You also referred to a global analysis. There is another analysis by Reporters without Borders in 2006, which indicates that South Africa has dropped from the 21st position of countries that enjoy the most press freedom in 2003 to the 44th position in

1. Does this not indicate a different picture and that in fact there has been deterioration in press freedom in South Africa? Thank you.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: I am familiar with that report and the analysis in that report, some of the incidences that they were quoting as incidences that catalogue the number of instances that show that South Africa is dropping, are the Mondli Makhanya type of examples, where it consists of allegations that are not substantiated. It passes as a fact in some cases. I must also say that there is also a growth in the number of countries that have better press freedom. There is an overall improvement in the world, which means that we might not always be at the top. The amount of rumours that are fuelled about South Africa and go unchecked, we also have that problem.

On the issue of the Bill whose official title is eluding me, the pornography one, it is for that reason that there are some concerns that we have. We have this dilemma of having to protect members of the public, children in particular, from material that could be damaging. It concerns all of us and balances with the freedom of others. I don’t claim to know the answer of that balance but I just know that at all times I would do anything to protect my children from harmful material as a parent. [Applause.] Ms M SMUTS: To the hon Deputy President, I just find some of her observations and remarks difficult to reconcile with what has been happening. How can it be said, for example, that free speech is thriving in a country that explicitly puts media freedom in its Constitution, when indeed government has tabled legislation which allows for pre-publication censorship and which has nothing, with respect to the Deputy President, to do with child pornography? There have never been any complaints about that. The Bill goes way beyond that.

Now secondly she made the statement, that only the courts are vested with the right to interpret free speech and the other rights. Now that being the case, does she accept in fact Judge Mohammed’s excellent ruling in the hon Health Minister’s privacy case against the Sunday Times? This case makes it quite clear that while the privacy of medical records must be respected, there was in this instance a compelling public interest case to publish, given the fact that the courts have that status. Does she accept that ruling? Could she perhaps tell us why the Health Minister has not in fact sued for defamation on this matter? It cannot just be said that these matters are not true. If they are untrue, the Health Minister must sue for defamation and if she doesn’t, then we assume the truth of these things. The defence in defamation is truth in public interest.

Lastly, would she kindly give us her view of something that was said by the chairperson of the relevant committee in the NCOP, I think last week, when the same Film and Publications Bill was dealt with, when the media organisations said that they will now have to go to the Constitutional Court on this matter, as indeed I think they should, the answer to them from the ANC leader of that committee was that they can go to court but the ANC will simply write the Bill again to ensure that prepublication censorship does occur. Will she give us her view from leadership on the position taken by that Member of Parliament, please?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Before the Deputy President responds, I would like to make it very clear to the members of the National Assembly that we don’t deal with matters that are in the NCOP. Therefore, I do not expect the Deputy President to respond to that matter. Of a number of questions that have been raised, the question that we are dealing with is the question on the principle of the freedom of the press and other media, anything that is related to that question may be answered and it is up to the Deputy President to respond. I think that the questions are not related to the principal question.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you very much, Acting Speaker, for your excellent ruling and observation. I will not really dwell on the issues that are not linked to the question that I am answering. On the issues of the Bill and the taking to court, we will abide with what the court says. There is no question that we will not abide with that. We have a different interpretation from that of the media and that is maybe where the courts come in. Then we will take it from there when that happens. I don’t want to be second-guessing and arguing with you. We do not have the power to tell the courts what to do. The other issues have really nothing to do with the question. I am also a politician and I know how to score points here and again and I am not going to do that.

Mr S L TSENOLI: Madam Acting Speaker, when we wrote the Constitution we did anticipate that some people would selectively quote from it to advance their interests. The Constitution explains in its interpretation of the Bill of Rights that when interpreting the Bill of Rights, a court, a tribunal or a forum must promote the values that underlie an open democratic society based on human dignity, equality and freedom. Preceding that one it also says: There will be human dignity that must be protected and respected. All of this must happen in the context of the interpretation by ourselves, government exercising its responsibility and Parliament in ensuring that it happens.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, what is your follow-up question because you are running out of time, now?

Mr S L TSENOLI: My follow-up question, Madam Acting Speaker, is: Is it not correct that in the nature of robust debate that there will be selective misrepresentations of the Constitution, as it argues?

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I think that was not a question but a comment. I don’t expect the Deputy President to respond to a comment. And I think that brings to the end the questions to the Deputy President.

 QUESTION TRANSFERRED FROM WRITTEN TO ORAL REPLY UPON REQUEST OF THE
                     RELEVANT MEMBER (RULE 117)

Question standing over from Wednesday, 5 September 2007:

MINISTERS:

Implementation of recommendations of Pickard Judicial Commission and
      Motimele Commission of Inquiry into South African Soccer

1. Mr B M Komphela (ANC) asked the Minister of Sport and Recreation:

   1) What were the key findings and recommendations of the (a) Pickard Judicial Commission and the (b) Motimele Commission of Inquiry into South African Soccer;

   2) Whether any of the recommendations made by either of these commissions of inquiry were implemented by soccer authorities; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details;

   (3) Whether Sport and Recreation South Africa will play any role in ensuring that the recommendations contained in the abovementioned reports are implemented by soccer authorities; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? N01973E

The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Acting Speaker, the question is divided into three sections: The first section relates to the findings of the Pickard Judicial Commission and the Motimane Commission; section two relates to the recommendations that emanated from these two commissions; and the third section asks whether we as the department play a role in the implementation of these recommendations.

The key findings and recommendations of the Pickard Judicial Commission were as follows: Firstly, the commission found that it could not dictate to the soccer fraternity how it should run its soccer affairs, but the experience of the past as well as the report of the commission should be used by the soccer fraternity, one, to avoid a recurrence of the financial mismanagement or malpractice by the organisations and, two, to improve the administration of these organisations.

Subsequent to the releasing of the findings of the report by the commission, a meeting should be chaired by an independent person, who would call over a period of several days between this report and that meeting all interested parties, such as the senior members of the National Soccer League, currently known as the Premier Soccer League, all provincial representatives and executives and committee members of the SA Football Association, amongst others, provided that this meeting can only be held once the present administration is released from the services of Mr Solomon Sticks Morewa and the full-time Executive President of Safa.

The second finding was that at the said meeting all issues should be canvassed, the whole constitution of the various soccer associations should be reconsidered and efforts must be made to reach consensus on the level where both professional and amateur soccer players are properly represented on Safa and the executive committees thereof. The principle of a full-time executive president is unacceptable; ideally, the president and the chairperson of Safa should be men of integrity and financial independence.

Thirdly, a full-time and adequately remunerated person, a CEO, should attend to the day-to-day affairs and negotiate on behalf of Safa at all levels. But such a person may not be president of Safa, nor may the latter chair meetings of the executive. The executive will report to the president and may not receive any compensation on what expenses it incurred when attending those meetings.

The commission found that representation on the committees should be entrenched in such a way that neither professionals nor amateurs can ever exercise a majority vote. The task of all office bearers is to promote football, meaning that any form of personal advantage must be absolutely prohibited. And it also found that in as far as women’s soccer is concerned, a similar meeting as alluded to above must be held to address problematic issues.

Mong B M KOMPHELA: Letona ke ya leboha ka tlhaloso eo o re fileng yona, empa, Letona, ditshisinyo tse ileng tsa etswa ke dikomisheni tsena tse pedi, eleng Komisheni ya Pickard le Komisheni ya Motimele. Banna bana ha ba hlokomela ditshesinyo tseo. Ba ntse ba tswela pele ba ipha tjhelete eo, ba ntse ba etsa tsona ditho tseo Motimele le Picad ba itseng ba se ke ba di etsa. Ke eng seo re ka thusang banna bana ka sona, hore mohlong re kgone ho ba thibela hore ba se ke ba tswela pele ka dintho tsena tse ba ntseng ba di etsa feela ho kupuwe hore ba seka ba hlola ba dietsa. Ke ya leboha. (Translation of Sesotho paragraph follows.)

[Mr B M KOMPHELA: Hon Minister I thank you for the clarity you gave us, however, the recommendations made by both the Pickard and Motimele Commissions are not adhered to by these people and they continue to access those monies and also continue to do the things which the commissions advised them not to do. What can we do to help these men not to continue doing what they are not supposed to be doing in terms of the two recommendations? I thank you.]

The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Chairperson, I must first apologise to the person who had asked the question, that is, the chairperson of the portfolio committee. I could not respond to all issues because it is a very long response. I’ll give you the written response, but with respect to the last part of your question, the fact of the matter is that neither Pickard nor Motimele could force Safa or the NSL/PSL to implement any of their recommendations.

As a matter of fact, since then until now - you must remember that Pickard was in operation since Steve Tshwete’s term of office, and Motimele since Ngconde Balfour’s term of office - as I am standing here now, the Department of Sport and Recreation, the government of the Republic of South Africa does not have a tool which compels Safa to do what these recommendations are asking for. The recommendations are not judicial and they cannot be legally enforced. Until the Bill that passed through the two Houses is signed, we will remain without hands.

Mr T D LEE: Chairperson, I thank the Minister for his presence in this House today. It shows that you have respect for this place, the people’s place here. Mr Minister, I would be very careful of using the word “commission” when we speak to soccer officials because to them “commission” means money in their pockets. That is how they understand “commission”. My question is: What are the names of the individuals implicated by the Motimele Commission of Inquiry and what action has been taken against them?

The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Chairperson, I agree with Mr Lee that, like many other words that we use, “commission” is very ambiguous. It can mean so many things to many people. But, with respect to this matter, money in the pocket is not only the preserve of the SA Football Association. As a matter of fact, there are very few federation administrators who do not take commission, directly or by proxy, and this has become clear in the last few days when we investigated the Absa/PSL situation. We had to go beyond them and it was shocking to see how many of these federations make money through commissions, directly or by proxy.

The hon member will remember that, subsequent to the Motimele Commission’s report, the Department of Safety and Security then opened cases against 27 referees or match officials and owners of clubs. It opened cases but as a matter of fact only one was prosecuted because, according to themselves, there were not enough grounds for the prosecution of the others. I will not be able to give the details of whys and wherefores because, as I say, the matter was in the hands of the police. We only received what they reported, namely that there were not enough grounds for the prosecution of the others.

Mr T D LEE: Chairperson, you know, what is important really to the nation: We really want to know who those people are, the so-called “others”. We would really like to know what their names are. Thank you.

The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Chairperson, that is easy to provide, but we cannot provide that now, since we did not anticipate that it would be requested. It is available in the files and in the records of the department. We will make it available.

                   SOCIAL SERVICES AND GOVERNANCE

                              Cluster 2

Actions of Chief Director in nominating a person to the SA Broadcasting Corporation Board

MINISTERS:

1. Ms M Smuts (DA) asked the Minister in the Presidency:

   1) Whether his Chief Director asked a certain person for her
      permission and her curriculum vitae on nominating her for a
      position on the SA Broadcasting Corporation (SABC) Board; if
      not, what is the position in this regard; if so,
   

   (2) whether his Chief Director advised the said person that he is working for the Minister in the Presidency; if not, why not? N02496E

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): The next question is question 360, which has been asked by the hon Smuts to the Minister in the Presidency. I am advised that the hon Padayachie will reply to the question.

Ms M SMUTS: Chairperson, on a point of order: In the light of the excellent statement made here by the Acting Speaker at the commencement of these proceedings, that Ministers absent today should come back to take questions, would you please allow me to request that, in the case of the two questions I have here for the hon the Minister in the Presidency, my questions also stand over, because the matter is of considerable seriousness?

As the hon Acting Speaker has said, each Minister is individually responsible for his portfolio and department and then Cabinet is collectively responsible. The matters we are dealing with in these questions pertain to things that happened in that Minister’s department and not in the department of this Deputy Minister, who also does not hold collective responsibility. The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): Thank you. The question, at the request of the questioner, will therefore stand over.

 QUESTION TRANSFERRED FROM WRITTEN TO ORAL REPLY UPON REQUEST OF THE
                     RELEVANT MEMBER (RULE 117)

Question standing over from Wednesday, 5 September 2007:

Extent to which sports federations compelled to comply with King 2 Report

1. Mr C T Frolick (ANC) asked the Minister of Sport and Recreation:

   To what extent is sport federations compelled to comply with the (a) provisions and (b) recommendations of the King 2 report on corporate governance? N01972E

The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Chairperson, the question relates to the extent to which federations are compelled to comply with the King Report.

The King 2 Report only gives guidelines or a code of corporate practice and conduct to ensure that the best corporate practices are complied with by the private sector. This applies to such institutions as all listed companies on the Johannesburg Stock Exchange, all banks, financial and insurance entities, public sector enterprises and agencies that fall under the Public Finance Management Act, as well as those public sector enterprises exercising a power or performing a function in terms of a provincial constitution or those public sector enterprises exercising a public power or performing a public function in terms of any legislation of the Republic.

From the above it becomes very clear that the King 2 Report gives guidelines rather than injunctions. It is not enforceable, but those that are affected by it should give due consideration to the application of the said code of corporate practice and conduct.

From a sport perspective, sports federations that are in charge of companies registered on the Johannesburg Stock Exchange or public entities in terms of the Public Finance Management Act, such as Boxing South Africa and the SA Institute for Drug-free Sport, are the only public entities under the administration of the Department of Sport and Recreation. These will have to give due consideration to the application of the said code as defined by King 2. However, they cannot be compelled to comply with the provisions and recommendations of King 2 that have been translated into the said code of corporate practice and conduct.

However, in terms of section 4 of the proposed National Sport and Recreation Amendment Bill that will be promulgated soon, our department will enter into a service level agreement with the SA Sports Confederation and Olympic Committee, as well as with national federations. We will then be able to require that national federations, in terms of that agreement, comply with the provisions of King 2.

Mr C T FROLICK: Thank you, Minister, for the reply. Chairperson, arising out of the hon Minister’s reply, the advent of professional sport in South Africa after 1995 heralded a new period where sport became a multibillion rand industry. Money continuously exchanged hands between the sponsors, the agents, companies and sport federations, as well as office bearers. In the previous question, Minister, you referred to the fact that that is a practice that is very widespread nationally and internationally.

Given the fact that the majority of our federations and provincial clubs are poor, have no resources and operate from the boots of cars, what efforts have been made by the department to assist these federations, who are interacting with big business and who have companies, (Pty) Ltds, to move towards compliance with the provisions of the King 2 Report as far as good, clean administration and corporate governance is concerned? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Chairperson, our department has again reflected in the annual report the amount of money that we invest in the training of administrators and organisers of sport in the various sectors of our communities. We will also report on how much we have invested in the partnership that we have with the University of Johannesburg insofar as the training of senior managers is concerned.

We have also held literally hundreds of meetings with different federations, the last one being held only yesterday with the football federation, to try to lobby them and explain to them the essence and meaning of good governance for our sport and for the improvement of our leagues and, indeed, for the inculcation of pride and integrity in the federations of this country.

Everybody is excited after the Springbok victory in the 2007 Rugby World Cup in France last Saturday. However, when we deal with governance issues in this House, even with respect to the leadership of the SA Rugby Union, we are hurled with insults. It is, however, a product of that pain and blood in our boardrooms that has improved the lot of the administration of our football.

I’ve just received a letter from Yaoundé in Cameroon. It’s from the Secretary-General of the Supreme Council of Sport in Africa, congratulating South Africa on this marvellous victory, but urging us to continue to be the shining example to the rest of the continent in the improvement of the governance of our federations. We will put money into that programme. Thank you.

Mnr T D LEE: Mnr die Minister, u weet die Engelse sê: “Charity begins at home.” Nou, wanneer dit kom by goeie aanspreeklikheidsbestuur, dan moet u die voorbeeld stel. Maar kyk maar net hoe u eie department bestuur word. Vir die afgelope paar jaar was daar geen kwalifikasies deur die Ouditeur- generaal nie. Hierdie jaar was daar nege ernstige kwalifikasies. Dis nege redes om baie bekommerd te wees.

Mnr die Minister, ek wil vra: Wat u gaan doen om daardie saak reg te stel, in belang van sport in Suid-Afrika en spesifiek in belang van die feit dat ons in 2010 die Sokkerwêreldbeker gaan aanbied? Asseblief, in belang van u en dié land se geloofwaardigheid, laat ons hierdie dinge doen. Wat gaan u doen? (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mr T D LEE: Mr Minister, you know, the English say, “Charity begins at home”. Now when it comes to good accountability management you have to set the example. But look at how the department is being managed. For the past few years there have been no qualifications by the Auditor-General. This year there have been nine serious qualifications. That is nine reasons to be very concerned.

Mr Minister, I want to ask what you are going to do to rectify that matter, in the interest of sport in South Africa, in the interest of the fact that we will be hosting the Soccer World Cup in 2010. Please, in the interest of your own and of the country’s credibility, let us do this. What are you going to do?]

The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Chairperson, if I wanted to be finicky, I would say that that is a new question. I will answer it, nonetheless.

On the question of the Auditor-General’s queries on our report, you will be interested to see that they go way back. The question that the hon member should be asking is: Why did the previous Auditor-General miss these issues? Why did they not pick them up? Why did it take so long for them to pick up these things? These things have nothing to do with corruption; they have to do with inefficiency, noncompliance with prescripts, nonavailability of policies and all those kinds of things - not now, not yesterday, not three years ago, but many, many years ago. What are we going to do about it? We have already corrected most of those and, of course, the report that you will read will reflect what was at the end of March, not what is at the end of 2007. We have implemented a whole range of corrective mechanisms.

Of course, the members will remember that we were running a skeleton staff when we started the department. During this term of government there was a moratorium on the appointment of staff and Mr Lee has consistently been asking me to fill those vacancies. We have filled them now, Sir. Thank you.

Mnr T D LEE: Voorsitter, ek verstaan wat die Minister vandag hier probeer sê, maar wat ek nie kan verstaan nie - en wat Minister Fraser-Moleketi seker nie kan verstaan nie - is die feit dat die Minister gewaarsku is dat sekere bonusse nie aan mense uitbetaal moet word nie. Desnieteenstaande is bonusse aan daardie mense betaal. Dit is weer ’n bewys van finansiële bestuur wat nie die mas opkom nie. Ek wil vra waarom hy sy kollegas se advies geïgnoreer het. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Mr T D LEE: Chairperson, I understand what the Minister is trying to say here today, but what I don’t understand - and what Minister Fraser-Moleketi probably doesn’t understand - is the fact that the Minister had been warned that certain bonuses should not be paid out to those people. Nonetheless bonuses were paid out to those people. This is once again evidence of financial management that doesn’t cut it. I want to know why he ignored his colleagues’ advice.]

The MINISTER OF SPORT AND RECREATION: Chairperson, Mr Lee’s informants are very selective with the truth. Let me give you the history of those bonuses.

The director-general at the time sent me a memorandum advising me to authorise the payment of those bonuses. I referred the matter to the Department of the Public Service and Administration and they refused to waiver the rules in respect of the payment. That was it. A few months down the line, the director-general sent another memorandum, advising me, in terms of what he purported to be the law, why these particular bonuses should be paid.

Now, Mr Lee, the director-general in any department of the state is the first adviser of the executing authority. Anybody who does not listen to their director-general is not very clever. But it turned out that they misled their executing authority. Section 19 of the Public Service Act states that that is gross misconduct, and there are stipulated steps to take in those circumstance, and we are taking them.

                   SOCIAL SERVICES AND GOVERNANCE

                              Cluster 2

          Benefits derived from overseas trips by Minister

MINISTERS:

1. Mrs J A Semple (DA) asked the Minister of Social Development:

   Whether, with reference to his department’s 2006-07 annual report revealing that he went on 19 overseas visits in that financial year, spending a total of 109 days out of the country, any measurable benefits that can be applied to his portfolio were derived from these trips; if not, why not’ if so, what are the relevant details? N02500E

The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Mr Chairperson, first of all, this question was answered and made public about a week or two ago. Secondly, I would like to advise the hon member that the way in which those days have been counted really does not reflect the reality in general. Some of those days happened before April last year, but they have all been added together in order to come up to that number. Thirdly, some of those days were days when I went to different countries on behalf of the President, and it was when I went out of the country on behalf of the Minister of Foreign Affairs.

But in general, I think the hon member is a bit misled in thinking that social development has its mandate only within South Africa as a whole. The amount of work that has been done by South Africa, especially by the President, at the United Nations, and by other Ministers, the Minister of Finance and all of the others, has interested the international community especially on the way in which South Africa has been dealing with the issue of poverty alleviation and eradication. Hence, a lot of interest has been generated in the international community.

Secondly, if the hon member looks very clearly into those dates, they are the days when I was travelling within Africa, but also in Latin America, where I was getting experience from other people.

Thirdly, you must understand that, on the issue of social development, there are not many countries in Africa that deal with the issue of poverty directly within the communities themselves. Very few Ministers deal exactly with that. It is in that process that we are going out, one way or the other, to try to talk to our colleagues on the importance of concentrating generally on the issue of poverty and poverty alleviation.

Fourthly, most of the work that we are doing in this country comes from the assistance and budget that we received from the international donor community, and most of the time they would like to know how they can continue to assist us in this type of work, and in that process we have been able to mobilise about R329 million in order to facilitate the work. That is money that does not necessarily include what has been given to nongovernmental organisations, which need a lot of money in order for them to survive.

But most importantly, it is a point and I think it should be understood as such, that the work that has been done in South Africa interests the vast majority of people especially in this country and other developing countries. What we have learnt ourselves has been very instructive in general to try to compel the type of policies that we are carrying out in South Africa, in comparison with the countries of the same development, especially in Latin America, in the field of social development and the question of development in general.

The exchanges that we have had, specifically with Bolivia, Chile, Mexico and Brazil, have been very enlightening. The programmes, for instance, of Bolsa Familia and Opportunidade in Mexico and Brazil, have been very useful and some of the things that we learnt from them are beginning to be put into effect in South Africa, for instance the question of concentrating on children, that investment in children has to be intensified because you are not dealing generally with individuals, you are dealing with a whole generation for the future of South Africa.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): Order, hon Minister. I regret your time for the first response has expired. You will get an opportunity to come back with the supplementaries.

Ms J A SEMPLE: Thank you, Chairperson, and thank you, hon Minister, for your reply. I am very pleased that you are actually here in the House today to answer the question, as opposed to being on one of these so-called many overseas trips. Hon Minister, I do apologise if you don’t agree with our figures, but the figures are based on those that are actually documented in your own department’s reports. So, that’s what we calculated. And I didn’t ask you a question two weeks ago; I put out a press statement and you replied. So now we are having it in the House on a one-to-one basis. Hon Minister, I would just like to ask you: Do you think that the benefits derived from your trips overseas or in Africa actually warrant the financial costs and the time costs? Do you think the benefits outweigh the costs, yes or no?

The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, hon member, R329 million is very little money. [Interjections.] If you think that the R329 million that we received from the donor community is very little money, then I think you should think again. The very fact that the international community is basically capable of investing or giving us so much money is something that we should thank them for.

Secondly, you are right: The way in which the number of days has been counted does not necessarily reflect the truth. As I said to you, some of the days that have been added are days before April last year, that is, from 2005 to April 2006. And the other days, generally, are the days that I have talked about, including those of the President, those of the Deputy Minister and those that we spent at conferences like the Aids conference in Canada. Those are days that I really think were important. But also included in that are days that one spends in Africa just travelling, before one even gets to one’s destination.

Mr T M MASUTHA: Thank you, hon Chairperson. Of course, what the Minister in his humility did not mention is that last week Thursday I gave him a call and told him that the Children’s Bill was coming up tomorrow, and he had to shorten his overseas trip to make sure that the children of this country take priority. [Interjections.] And further, the opposition, of course, will not mention the fact that the Minister, since he took over this Ministry, has managed to raise the take-up rate of the foster care grant …

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): Hon Masutha, what is your question?

Mr T M MASUTHA: The question I want to ask you, hon Minister, is: When you compare the great strides we have made in fighting poverty in this country with our peer countries that you have visited, do you think that we have done fairly well, or do you think we are still challenged?

The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, I think we have done well. As far as the millennium development goals are concerned, it is quite obvious that we are going to be able to fulfil that, but of course there are weaknesses as far as maternal mortality and infant mortality are concerned. Those are the weaknesses that, I think as our health system improves, we will be able to ensure that we do fulfil those.

Ms J A SEMPLE: Chairperson, hon Minister, I am really pleased that you clarified the R329 million. I thought what you were telling us was that you spent R329 million on your trips overseas, and then you mentioned the donor funding. Hon Minister, are there any reports that have been tabled about the visits and benefits to the department and the country of your visits? If so, how can they be accessed, and if not, why are there no reports tabled? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, the member can approach my director-general. All of the reports are available.

Mr M WATERS: Chairperson, the hon Minister mentioned that he learnt on his overseas trips that we must put children first. The current legislation, the Child Care Act, is underfunded by R50 billion. We only fund about R2 billion. Will the Minister give this House the assurance that, since he has learnt from his overseas trips that children must come first, that all legislation pertaining to children within his department will be funded appropriately? Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): That is a new question, but it is up to the Minister to decide.

The MINISTER OF SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, I think the hon member knows the commitment of this government as far as children are concerned. When the budget is asked for and there is a possibility that it would be available, basically this government will do everything in its power to ensure that children come first. Plans with regard to setting up of special transit facilities for asylum seekers

1. Mr C M Lowe (DA) asked the Minister of Home Affairs:

   (1) Whether, with reference to certain newspaper articles (copies furnished), her department has plans to set up special transit facilities for asylum seekers; if not (a) why did her department’s Refugee Affairs Director (name furnished) make a statement to this effect and (b) what are the reasons for her department not putting these plans in place; if so, why did her department’s acting head of communication services (name furnished) state that the department was contemplating additional refugee centres and not special transit facilities;

   (2) whether she has taken any action as a result of these contradicting statements by officials of her department; if not, why not; if so, what action? N02495E

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Thank you very much, Chairperson, and thank you, hon member. The answer to part one is: No, the South African government will continue to ensure that refugees are integrated into communities and not have to be put in camps. We are of the firm view that the refugees and other categories of regularised foreign nationals that are in our country can best contribute and be protected when they are properly integrated into our communities. This remains in line with our constitutional obligation to accord them the right to freedom of movement.

To clarify the statements regarding transit facilities, I must indicate that the department had commissioned a feasibility study in October 2006 to inform us of the viability of setting up transit facilities for asylum seekers whose status was not yet determined. This was done in order to advise on the many policy options we have been considering with regard to the management of illegal migration and the pressure currently put on the asylum system.

Merely commissioning a feasibility study, therefore, does not mean that government has adopted a policy to set up such transit facilities. The draft report of the study was sent to relevant stakeholders for comment, and unfortunately one of the journalists who got access to the study erroneously attributed it to one of the officials in the department.

To the second part of the question, the answer is no. There is no contradiction between a statement acknowledging that we have commissioned such a study and one that clarifies that we have not decided to set up such facilities. I thank you.

Mr C M LOWE: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon Minister, thank you very much for your response. But I do believe that the fact that there were two specific points of view issued, is indicative of your department, where it seems that one hand does not know what the other hand is doing. And it is not just on the question of refugees, hon Minister; quite frankly, your department appears to be a department in crisis. It is largely dysfunctional and when it comes to refugees particularly, we see that their dignity is trampled on, their human rights are abused, as we have seen just this week down on the Foreshore but also in Pretoria, in Johannesburg and in Durban where I visited those offices. Frankly, Minister, it not just the refugees, it is the citizens of this country, too, who have their dignity trampled and their human rights abused when they try to get ID books, passports and the like.

Simply put, Minister, it cannot go on. Your director-general has been good enough to be frank and plain-speaking with us in telling us what the problems are and what he needs to do, but you, Madam, have been simply invisible.

I want to ask you this afternoon whether you are committed to turning around Home Affairs, and making the citizens of South Africa and the refugees who come here feel that they do have human rights, that their dignity will be respected and that they will get service. Because, with great respect, Minister, that has not been the case until now. It simply has not been the case. This is the first time you have been in this House in months. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): Order! Hon member, your time has expired.

Mr C M LOWE: I would just simply ask, on behalf of South Africa: Are you committed to Home Affairs? Thank you, Chairperson.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): Order! Also, you are asking more than what is contained in the content of the original question. I shall leave it to the discretion of the Minister.

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Thank you, Chairperson. You are very correct, Mr Lowe, that I have not been around, but I am sure you will be very happy to hear that I was not lying on my back in my bedroom.

Secondly, regarding a crisis of human rights violations of both citizens and refugees, you are very correct. I am trying to sort out the system that I have inherited and trying to correct it because it is a mess. I also want to say that I am sure you will be very happy to hear that while I have been out of the country I have been dealing with the issue of the scarce skills quota list, which we have published. If you need a report from the Minister, I can assure you that you can receive that report about where we have been, whom we have spoken to and what it is that we have talked about.

About the citizens of this country, you are equally correct. The mess that we are sorting out is not a mess that was created after 1994; it is a mess dating back 40 years. [Interjections.] Yes, the director-general is very committed to turning around the department. Yes, of course, he is there and the turnaround team is there, and all the issues that you are raising are issues that this Minister has raised in this House through the portfolio committee. Thank you.

Mr H P CHAUKE: Thank you, Chairperson. Thank you very much, Minister, for your precise answer. Would you agree with me that during the liberation struggle of the Mozambicans, the majority of white Mozambicans came to South Africa, and the majority of them were given citizenship? Will you agree with me, again, that during the liberation struggle of the Zimbabweans, white Zimbabweans did not go back to England but came to South Africa and were given citizenship by the then regime? The issue of a refugee camp only arises because it is Africans that must be put in the camp. Will you agree with me, Minister, that this government has monitored the situation and we know very well that integration is taking place. If you go to Soweto, Khayelitsha, Gugulethu, you will see a number of refugees who have been integrated into the communities. Some of them are doing panel beating, some are doing building.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): You are running out of time, hon Chauke.

Mr H P CHAUKE: Therefore, Minister, will you agree with me on the points that I have raised? Thank you very much. [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Thank you very much, Chairperson of the Portfolio Committee on Home Affairs. I will not make reference to the issue of white Mozambicans and citizenship, but I do want to say that one of the areas I visited yesterday, Bushbuckridge, is a close border area. It borders with Mozambique where you have a number of undocumented migrants. This is not the only area, only province or only village that is affected by this. We have the same in other areas where we border with other countries.

Of course these people are undocumented. We declared an amnesty in 1996- 1997, when people were allowed to apply for permanent residence. We have now noted that a number of those undocumented migrants were reluctant to come forward and apply for permanent residence, and as a result we have a number of people who arrived here prior to the declaration of that amnesty who still do not have documents.

Secondly, on the issue of integration with citizens, I still believe that the policy option which we as government have taken, of integrating asylum seekers and refugees into our communities, remains the best and most workable option. Anyone who has never lived in a camp as a refugee or an asylum seeker will stand and advocate for this because you have not had the experience.

Mr C M LOWE: Thank you, Chair. Hon Minister, I thank you for your response. Arising from your answer, if one visits Marabastad, if one visits the Foreshore - and I am assuming, hon Minister, that you have actually been there - surely anything is better than the conditions that those people are forced to live under. Because that is where they live. You can call it a camp, you can call it a transit facility; it does not matter. There certainly has to be somewhere where people can at least be sheltered, their children can be fed, they can even be educated. Perhaps “camp” is the wrong word, but the current situation is simply unacceptable. It is a national disgrace; it really is. To just sit here and to throw it back at us is not the answer.

What would you say is the answer, then, over a short period of time? With the situation going on in Zimbabwe, you know as well as I do, more and more people will come across the border looking desperately for any form of survival. That is all we can offer them, survival that they cannot have there. Anything has to be better than what they currently put up with. It is all very well saying that camps or transit facilities are no good. What is the response? Thank you, Chair.

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Thank you very much, Mr Lowe. Chairperson, fortunately, Mr Lowe is a member of the portfolio committee. I am sure you are very familiar not only with the turnaround process, but with a particular work stream which deals with issues of permitting and refugee affairs. I am sure, as a member of that portfolio committee, you are aware as well … [Interjections.] Please, just allow me to speak. You are not Mr Lowe. Mr Lowe, I am sure you are also aware of the fact that beyond Customs House, which was visited by the portfolio committee, beyond Marabastad, beyond Rosettenville, there are other centres which we have opened, sites that are eradicating the backlog. This is one way of trying to manage this problem of long queues.

I am also sure that you are aware of the fact that there is an intention to integrate the backlog sites with the current refugee offices. I am sure as a member of the portfolio committee you do have that information. I am not sure if we should continue to look at that situation and actually improve it beyond what we are trying to do, which is moving people from Customs House and integrating them in the current offices, the ones we have established, not the ones we inherited.

Mr C M LOWE: Thank you, Chair. Hon Minister, thank you for that response. Just on the question of what you inherited, Madam. The situation in Zimbabwe, to the best of my knowledge, really started to flare up in 2000 and 2001. If one visits these refugee centres, you will find that 80% to 85% of the people there are from Zimbabwe. They are from all over Africa but the bulk, the large majority of them, is from Zimbabwe. That is one of the major reasons for the current crisis with the refugee situation.

My question is: How on earth has that got anything to do with what you have inherited from any previous regime in this country? Your tenure, as I understand, Minister, has been since 2004. This has happened under your watch. This has happened under your call. It has become a national disaster and a national disgrace. Why are you now turning and blaming the previous regime, which had nothing to do with it? How are we going to address it now? That is my question. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): Hon Minister, just give me a second. Hon members, I don’t want us to smuggle new questions in as supplementaries. [Interjections.] Order! I am chairing. I am going to leave it to the discretion of the Minister, but I am uncomfortable about us smuggling new questions in. The system is there; and the Rules are there. You want to ask a question that is different from the one you tabled. Order! This is question time. I am making an appeal, hon Davidson. I am leaving it to the discretion of the Minister to respond.

Mr M J ELLIS: Chairperson, on a point of order …

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): I am going to allow the Minister to respond first, Mr Ellis.

The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Chairperson, maybe I can respond just to say, yes, national disgrace; yes to all the things that you are saying. I agree about the national embarrassment. However, we are not sitting around and doing nothing about the embarrassment and the disgrace.

Secondly, I am not responsible for the movement of people from Zimbabwe into South Africa. Therefore, it cannot be that, that all the ills that we have in refugee affairs or with undocumented illegal migrants, we should be talking about Zimbabwe. You are saying that the majority of people who are at Customs House are Zimbabweans. In fact, they are not. If you want a breakdown of refugees - I am not talking about asylum seekers - we can provide those figures to you. You will see, Mr Lowe, that they are not necessarily all Zimbabweans. The majority, in fact, are not Zimbabweans.

See also QUESTIONS AND REPLIES.

The House adjourned at 17:04. ____ ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1. Bill passed by Houses– to be submitted to President for assent

(1)     Bill passed by National Council of Provinces on 23 October
     2007:


     (a)     Co-operative Banks Bill [B 13B – 2007] (National Assembly –
         sec 75).

National Assembly

The Speaker

1. Membership of Committees

1.      Mr R Sonto has been elected as Chairperson of the Ad Hoc
     Committee on Matters Relating to the Ex-Mineworkers Union with
     effect from 23 October 2007.

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Minister of Trade and Industry

   (a) Report and Financial Statements of Support Program for Industrial Innovation (SPII) for 2006-2007, including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial Statements for 2006-2007.

COMMITTEE REPORTS

National Assembly

Portfolio Committee on Social Development Children’s Amendment Bill [B19B- 2006]

The Portfolio Committee on Social Development, having considered and examined the Children’s Amendment Bill [B19B-2006] (National Council of Provinces – sec 76(2)), referred to it, and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a section 76(2) Bill, reports the Bill with amendments.

The Committee wishes to report further, as follows:

History and background of the Bill

This Bill will complete the Children’s Act, Act No 38 of 2005, by inserting provisions relating to essential social welfare services for children.

This new law is the first comprehensive national response to the protection and welfare of children. It is aimed at honouring our obligations towards children under the Constitution and various international instruments on the protection of children.

In 1997, the then Minister for Welfare and Population Development and Minister of Justice mandated the South African Law Review Commission to investigate and recommend a new comprehensive legislative framework for children, which has culminated in the development of this legislation.

The composite Bill was introduced in 2003 and split into two parts as required in terms of the Constitution. The first part, with its focus on children’s rights and the relations between parents and children, and with other care givers, was passed as the current Children’s Act, parts of which came into operation on 1 July 2007.

Public consultation

Given the constitutional issues involved, the Committee embarked on an extensive public participation process, involving several public hearings, that included ordinary citizens from remote areas of the country who would not normally have had access to, or an opportunity to participate in, such hearings. Further hearings were also conducted at Parliament in response to a request by civil society to that effect.

Policy issues requiring further attention:

It is recommended that the following policy issues be further investigated and addressed by the Department of Social Development through intersectoral collaboration with other government departments:

1. Foster care in relation to social security

The Committee notes the phenomenal growth in the uptake of the foster-care grant which could affect the long-term sustainability of this grant and therefore requests the Department of Social Development to conduct an urgent comprehensive review of the social security policy for children and the foster-care system.

It commends the department, however, for the efforts made to maximize access by vulnerable children to this form of support. The cluster foster- care system being introduced in this Bill will go a long way towards improving placement and will be a vital form of support to children.

1. Guardianship

The Committee noted during the consideration of the Children’s Act the motivation put forward by the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development for retaining the jurisdiction of the High Court over guardianship matters, pending the phasing in of the family courts where the matter will ultimately reside. Noting with concern the hardship experienced by poor people in accessing the High Court, the Committee urges the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development to review this decision with a view to bringing the matter to the lower courts.

1. Refugee children and unaccompanied, undocumented foreign children While the Committee recognises that the Children’s Act provides for all vulnerable children, including refugee children and unaccompanied, undocumented foreign children, it urges that more work be conducted at an intersectoral level to remove any policy gaps.

2. Child-headed households

The Committee observes the escalating problem of child-headed households resulting from social challenges which has necessitated the granting of legal recognition in this Bill.

The Committee recommends that the practical management and monitoring of child-headed households be further investigated, particularly their access to social protection and adult supervision.

1. Corporal punishment

The Committee excised clause 139, dealing with the discipline of children, from the Bill in recognition of the need for further investigation of the matter and anticipates this matter being finalised in a proposed amendment bill to be introduced in 2008.

The Committee however, wishes to emphasise that the existing law regulating inappropriate forms of discipline of children remains in place and urges that the programmes envisaged in this Bill aimed at promoting positive parenting skills be implemented by the Department of Social Development.

The Committee is of the view that this matter should have been tagged as a section 75 matter by the Joint Tagging Mechanism when the comprehensive Children’s Bill was introduced in 2003.

1. Street children

The Committee has endorsed in this Bill a policy shift from providing shelters for street children to providing them with a comprehensive response while recognising that they are children in need of care and protection in child-care and youth-care centres.

The Committee calls on the Department of Social Development to ensure that a comprehensive intersectoral response to the needs of these children is developed.

Intersectoral collaboration

The Committee recommends that the Interdepartmental Steering Committee on the Children’s Act, in consultation with the Department of Social Development, provinces and other government departments, should report regularly to a higher level of governance, for example to the Forum of South African Directors-General (Fosad), with regard to the development of tools such as implementation plans, profiles of services to children, regulations, norms and standards, practice guidelines and implementation strategies, as required by the Bill.

Communication strategy

The Committee strongly recommends that the Department of Social Development should embark on an integrated and comprehensive communication strategy to communicate the intentions of this legislation and to educate the public in order to instil in society the ethos and values promoted by the Children’s Act.

Children are a collective responsibility within government and it is important that this strategy be implemented on a continuous basis in an intersectoral manner.

Adv. T M Masutha, MP

Chairperson: Portfolio Committee on Social Development 24 October 2007

Report to be considered.