THURSDAY, 14 JUNE 2007 __

          PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
                                ____

The Council met at 14:56.

The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000.

                          NOTICE OF MOTION

Mr R J TAU: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the Council I shall move:

That the Council –

 1) notes that during the youth debate held yesterday on 13 June 2007,
    the leader of the DA rose to apologise publicly for the role they
    played in the apartheid structures, programmes and forums, which led
    to the deaths, maiming and detention of young people who were at the
    forefront of fighting for a nonracial, nonsexist and democratic
    South Africa;
 2) further notes that the hon Watson committed his party – in this
    instance, the DA – to going out and mobilising young people of all
    racial and cultural backgrounds to actively participate in the
    political activities organised for young people during this month of
    June, which is youth month; and

 3) hopes that his party will encourage all South African youth to
    understand that South Africa belongs to all young people
    irrespective of their racial, cultural or ethnic background.


                      NOTICE OF MOTION IN ORDER

                              (Ruling)

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Just before we come to the Order of the Day, I want to give a ruling which I said I would check when Mr Mzizi gave his motion yesterday.

Hon members, I would like to make a ruling on the notice of a motion moved by the hon Mzizi and objected to by the hon Shiceka on the grounds that the notice of motion was unconstitutional. After perusal of the motion, the Constitution and the Council Rules, I could not find any provision of the constitutional rules with which the notice is in conflict.

However, I would like to caution members that motions which tend to either infringe on the independence of courts or require the Council to interfere in the function of courts will be ruled out of order. I therefore rule that the notice of motion moved by the hon Mzizi is in order.

                         APPROPRIATION BILL


                           (Policy debate)

Vote No 19 – Correctional Services; Vote No 20 – Defence; Vote No 21 – Independent Complaints Directorate; Vote No 22 – Justice and Constitutional Development; and Vote No 23 – Safety and Security:

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Chairperson, hon members of the House, the White Paper on Defence prescribes that the secondary task of the SA National Defence Force is to support all other departments in the execution of their functions. Therefore, where any one of the departments fails to fulfill its functions, for any number of reasons, government calls on the SANDF in order to meet its obligations towards the rest of the citizenry.

Where, therefore, as in the present public sector industrial action, the Defence Force is deployed either in hospitals or any area of life, it is to ensure that government continues to satisfy the rights of other citizens, and not – and I repeat, not as some have suggested - to deny workers who are taking part in industrial action their right to withhold their labour.

That right cannot be taken away from the citizens. It cannot be taken away from any workers in any sector, because it is a right enshrined in the Constitution. Whilst the negotiations continue, government must ensure that those who are taking part in industrial action continue to enjoy that right. Nevertheless, those who are not so involved must also continue to enjoy their rights – the right to life, the right to education, and the right to all other amenities that they require.

It is important to understand this prescript. In dictatorships, in undemocratic countries, the state often denies workers the right to strike, in other words the right to withdraw their labour, as was the case in this country before we became a democracy. In democracies, strike action means the right to withhold one’s labour. That is why the government may not use the security forces to smash marches, or to bust the strike by way of preventing workers from picketing. Security forces are employed to protect the rights of others.

The SANDF therefore ensures that the balance is kept between rights and obligations – the right to enjoy those rights and the obligation to respect the rights of others. The National Defence Force will never, for as long as our Constitution prevails, be used to break strikes or to deny citizens any of the rights enshrined in the Constitution.

I want to pause in order to thank all the dedicated women and men this afternoon, members of the SANDF who are deployed in the numerous tasks given to them under the Constitution and as prescribed in the White Paper.

This year’s budget speech takes places against the backdrop of the first state visit to South Africa by a democratically elected president of the Democratic Republic of the Congo. We welcome President Kabila to our shores and greet him in the name of peace, development and prosperity.

I remind those of my generation – and want to educate the younger members of the House - that the song that we sang when the House adjourned was not composed when we heard that the visitor was coming. [Laughter.] This song is a solidarity song with the people of the Congo, first composed by the people of our country in the townships, and elsewhere, immediately or soon after the late Patrice Lumumba was assassinated.

I remember that it was a song we sang whenever we were travelling, going to soccer matches, going on school trips and so on. Then, I must admit, it didn’t have the meaning that I now actually understand it to have. [Laughter.] It is a truly long struggle of the people of our region, a joint struggle with them.

This year then sees the most diverse deployment of the SA National Defence Force troops since the birth of our democracy. As we speak, the sons and daughters of our nation are staffing missions in theatres of conflict in Africa and beyond, as well as at home. They willingly face risks and dangers of varying degrees in order to advance the national, regional, continental and universal objectives of building a peaceful future for humankind.

Our troops are guardians of peace in Ethiopia and Eritrea; they nurture the burgeoning democracies of Burundi and the Democratic Republic of the Congo; and they ensured free and fair elections in the Comoros, Madagascar and Lesotho. Alongside their sister African forces they monitor and enforce compliance with the humanitarian ceasefire agreement in the sweltering heat of Darfur in the Sudan. They are providing much-needed support to the Central African Republic in repulsing waves of attacks by northern rebels intent on overthrowing a democratically elected government.

The SA National Defence Force is assisting Mozambique after the explosion of the ammunition depot outside Maputo. Indeed, we are making further preparations to eliminate other depots, which are posing similar threats to the lives of ordinary Mozambicans. The SA National Defence Force is the mainstay of these operations. South Africa is currently the 10th largest contributor to the United Nations peacekeeping operations. Not only has it distinguished itself in these areas, but alongside the work our nation is doing on the diplomatic front it is contributing in no small measure to the rising profile of our country. Indeed, its performance is not only acknowledged in all of these countries, but the SA National Defence Force is now in demand in the continent and beyond.

Peacekeepers who are placed in these conflict areas must provide security and protection for the civilian populations amongst whom they work. They must, first and foremost, stop the ongoing fighting and killing. They must then be able to redirect the energies of the people into reconstruction activities. They must be able to pursue integrated approaches to repatriation, resettlement, reintegration, and the rehabilitation of refugees, the internally displaced ex-combatants and their families, paying particular attention to women and children who are victims of the violence of these conflicts.

They must plan and implement comprehensive and well-blended disarmament, demobilisation, rehabilitation and reintegration programmes – what otherwise are referred to now, in peacekeeping circles, as DDRR programmes – as a basis for consolidating safety and security.

Central to making our interventions sustainable, and in line with the principles of security sector reform, we have to ensure that the thinking of the leaders of new democracies is directed towards respect for and loyalty to the constitutions of their own countries. Peacekeeping interventions do not end with elections. The detail of those activities suggest therefore that the training of the members of the SA National Defence Force has become increasingly intricate because we have to prepare them for various functions, some of which have nothing to do with actual fighting. Some of them have to educate and mend schools; others have been able to educate people in agriculture so that they can begin to cultivate the land and make a living – activities that take people away from warfare.

The alarming number of conflict-prone countries underscores the need for a broader approach to conflict prevention, one that avoids an artificial divide between preconflict and postconflict crises. It also indicates the need for an appropriate mix of political, security, humanitarian and developmental responses.

Securing just, sustainable peace in a conflict-prone situation means building strong transparent states with professional, civilian-led military and police. It means developing a democratic framework that tolerates diversity. It means building an open civil society that promotes democratic governance and personal security; and it means instilling in all state institutions – but especially the security forces – a culture of democracy, rooted in respect for the rule of law and individual rights and dignity.

The acceptance by the Sudanese government of the deployment by the United Nations of a hybrid African Union-United Nations force in Darfur must be seen as an important early step in allowing for this process.

Defence policy is classically regarded as a subset of foreign policy. Our approach is that defence is politics by other means. In the current period, the Defence Force must be seen as an instrument of politics, particularly foreign policy. Defence strategy therefore is the art and science of employing the defence forces of a nation to secure the objectives of national policy.

The Department of Defence will continue to contribute to African unity by focusing on our common political objectives. This will require a lot of political work to ensure that other African countries understand unity as we do, both at the level of political leadership and at the level of military leadership.

We continue to increase our diplomatic defence missions abroad. We now have defence representation in 31 countries, 17 of which are in Africa.

The appearance of non-state actors in different shapes and forms, including private security firms and private military companies, needs to be reckoned with. Private, military and all security companies are able to intervene in conflicts today, tilting the balance of power in favour of their paymasters. They have the potential to undermine legitimate constitutional democracies. A case in point is the recent attempt by private funders of the group that was heading to Guinea in order to overthrow the government there. Indeed, some of the elements that seek to overthrow governments command budgets that are bigger than that of nation states.

Whilst terrorism has been identified by the developed world as the biggest threat, we maintain that poverty and underdevelopment are the biggest threats to democracies in the developing world, because they expose our people to manipulation by those of wealthier countries. Competition for scarce resources is therefore another source of insecurity across the continent.

Only this morning, the Congolese were pointing out the problem of so many who continue to take their diamonds and other resources out of that country, because the armed forces are not yet able to cover the length and breadth of such a huge country. So, it is in this context too that we can understand the situation in Somalia.

Very early in our new democracy, it was determined by the executive that the defence industry was a strategic asset. Motivated by the desire to be self-reliant, the government directed that all efforts should be made to retain as many of our strategic capabilities as possible. We remain committed to our defence-related industries, as a result. But, in order to succeed in this area, we have to identify those which have the possibility of survival in an ever-increasingly robust international trade as well as to find partners with whom we can collaborate in order to conquer bigger markets.

Our strategic capabilities are weighed against our threat analysis and our national security plans. Consequently, we encourage and are in support of all those initiatives which are intended to restructure our defence-related industries so that most of the home-grown industries survive far into the future.

When it comes to acquisition therefore we will prioritise, as indeed we are doing now, commodities which are either domestically developed or those in which South African industries have a stake. The South African defence industry is now under the microscope, with a view to its growth and development. Emphasis is being placed on an integrated approach to the transformation of the defence industry.

It is a key industry in the South African economy, and all role-players must participate in this transformation. This includes, of course, various government departments, parastatals, the defence industry itself and the private sector.

The Department of Defence has to respond to these challenges and go beyond that. The African Standby Force was conceived by the African Union as a rapid reaction force available to itself in order to deal with or arrest conflicts on the continent. It is composed of five regional brigades. The SADC brigade is being launched in August this year, in Tanzania. It will have all the features of a rapid-reaction force.

It is very important that all the countries of our region participate in developing and sustaining peace and stability in the continent. The participation of the SADC members must increase interoperability and commonality, and, as our country is the biggest in the region, the main burden at the present time must fall on South Africa as part of its duty to the continent.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Minister, could you summarise? Your time has expired. Could you please summarise and conclude?

The MINSTER OF DEFENCE: This, in turn, will strengthen our capacity to meet our challenges, whatever they may be. Therefore we will put in place a system or a process by which all requests from the African Union, from wherever else they may come, are processed at the SADC level so that the SADC brigade, not South Africa, can be deployed rather than troops of individual countries.

I will rest my input here. My colleague, the Deputy Minister, will have the privilege of completing part of my speech and then read his own. I thank you. [Laughter.] [Applause.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I’m sorry, hon Minister. Members will be aware that this debate is going to take us more than four hours, and that we were also disturbed by the Joint Sitting as we could have started earlier than we did. So, I will be slightly stricter with time. There is a timer that tells you when to begin to round off. I don’t want to be nasty and tell people their time is up. So, if we could just respect one another in that regard.

The MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, hon Minister, Deputy Ministers, hon members, I greet you; and I am sure I can also greet and salute comrades sitting up there in the gallery.

This policy debate takes place two days before the 31st anniversary of the Soweto uprising. On Saturday, it will be 31 years since the youth of South Africa marched in all parts of the country for a better education and indeed a transformed South Africa. We salute many of those who bravely undertook the journey and, in the process, sacrificed their youth and their lives.

As our contribution to youth development, the department currently employs 134 young interns. These legally qualified interns have found a home in court services where we have 69 interns, and 35 of them are candidate attorneys placed in the State Attorney’s Office and some of them are also on contract. About 15 are employed as legal secretaries and two are deployed as State Law Adviser’s officers.

The department plans to employ 100 law graduates who will be placed at law clinics of various universities in the 2007-08 financial year. We believe these initiatives will strengthen our current pool of possible recruits while at the same time providing an opportunity to the young graduates to acquire the necessary experience that will help them compete in the work environment.

I would also say it’s in that spirit that we now host a moot court every year. For instance, this year we had students participating in that event from both the University of the Western Cape and Stellenbosch University.

In presenting this budget speech I also wish to convey the message that we have made progress in meeting the goals we have set for ourselves, such as improving efficiency in the justice system and thus ensuring greater access to justice for our people. I wish to take this opportunity to thank all senior managers who are dedicated to their work and who, indeed, have assisted us to meet our goals set in our strategy for improving justice, improving service in the justice system and creating greater opportunity for our people to access justice.

Within the broader context of the justice crime prevention cluster, I can say here that broader synergies are being created. Various departments of the JCPS cluster have worked well together, and I am pleased to be able to declare that, as a cluster, we have done much to improve the processes across the whole Integrated Justice System or IJS – the value chain. That is to say we have established provincial counterparts of the national development committee, and transversal activities across the various departments are now being aligned. We have moved away from dealing with our mandates in an isolated manner.

Let me now turn to the budget allocated to us and I would like to indicate that the budget that we have this financial year is R8,5 billion. Some of it, R2,9 billion, is allocated to Court Services, R1,8 billion is for the National Prosecuting Authority and R925 million is allocated to Chapter 9 institutions. The budget allocated to the Court Services Programme includes an amount of R467 million to improve infrastructure.

But, of importance to the NCOP is the fact that courts in various divisions have been allocated budgets. KwaZulu-Natal has a budget of R294 million; Eastern Cape – R300 million; Gauteng – R350 million; Mpumalanga – R109 million; Limpopo – R172 million; Western Cape – R219 million; Free State – R156 million; Northern Cape – R71 million; and North West – R138 million.

This year, we are also very proud to announce that we have made great advances in laying down IT infrastructure at all our courts. I am pleased because it is truly modernising our courts. There is no moving back in this regard. I am pleased to say that, no matter what happened, we have indeed as of this month connected to 446 courts with our e-Schedule system.

For your information, let me give you a sense of what we mean by the IT infrastructure that we are talking about. We have a justice deposit account system that we have put in place and we are rolling out. All of these systems move us away from the manual system that we have had. We have rolled out this facility to 150 courts and we are left with 300 to go.

We also have a justice management information system which consolidates all case information in the courts, electronically, in order to produce a report from any location. If that’s not advancement, I don’t know what advancement is. [Applause.]

We had working meetings with the Department of Public Works and I am confident that there will be progress in infrastructure management and development. About R308 million in our court capital works programme was spent during 2006-07 on the construction of new courts and additional court rooms to existing courts.

Improving security at our court buildings was a particular focus of the department’s reprioritisation process during the 2005-06 financial year. I am pleased to report that 50 X-ray machines and 200 walk-through metal detectors were procured and deployed to high-risk court buildings. In addition, burglar proofing and perimeter fencing were installed at all court buildings. And that, to me, is progress.

An amount of R467 million has been allocated to facilities management. The funds will mainly be used for the continuation of construction work of 11 major projects and for the planning and construction of new courts in Katlehong, Garies, Bityi, Ntuzuma, Soshanguve, Lutzville, Ashton, Bredasdorp, Sundumbili and Galeshewe.

The department plans to begin construction of new trial courts in Limpopo and in Mpumalanga in the 2007-08 financial year. The process of acquiring sites for these courts is at an advanced stage. There is, of course, a budget that has been set aside for this. There is also money set aside for the rehabilitation of the existing courts.

With regard to the two courts that I have mentioned, let me indicate here to you that notwithstanding the delay in the rationalisation Bill, we have decided to proceed. That is why we are reporting here that we are going to be putting up those courts.

A major drive in the new financial year will be to ensure that our facilities are accessible for the disabled. An amount of R120 million is being committed in the current financial year towards making 36 court buildings accessible for the disabled.

With regard to the NPA, the support and assistance rendered by court preparation officials to assist victims of crimes, in particular abused children, continued. There are presently 68 court preparation officials with an additional 34 officials appointed with effect from 1 March 2007. A uniform training module has been developed and is to be submitted for accreditation. That’s all about access to justice.

Reducing the number of awaiting-trial detainees, especially children, was one of the strategic initiatives identified by the NPA in the financial year 2006-07. The objective of the project was to effectively reduce the number of awaiting-trial detainees. You all know it’s a problem that we face. The idea was to develop criteria to manage awaiting-trial detainees according to the severity of the crime, the effective management of children awaiting trial and to participate at provincial level in awaiting- trial detainees’ structures.

With regard to sexual offences and community affairs or Soca, over the years we have observed the sexual offences and community affairs unit pursuing innovative ways of doing its work. One such example is the conceptualisation of Thuthuzela care centres, which indeed is a world- acclaimed integrated model dealing with violence against women and children. Two more Thuthuzela care centres were launched in the past financial year, bringing the total to ten.

On the international front, Soca provides training to officials from various African countries on sexual offences and advanced skills in the prosecution of child sex offenders and child victim management. This training was also rolled out nationally to prosecutors and other role- players. Of course, through Project Ndabezitha – eyamakhosi [for traditional leaders] – Soca successfully trained one of our traditional leaders from five provinces on managing domestic violence in rural areas. And who can deny that this indeed is access to justice at work.

With regard to the priority crimes litigation unit, the unit manages and directs investigations and prosecutions of priority crimes, including contraventions of nuclear, chemical, biological and conventional arms control legislation, and prosecutions and tracing of persons arising from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, TRC.

With regard to missing persons, I reported that 36 exhumations have been conducted so far. Twenty reburials have taken place. The unit has also been engaged with various cases dealing with mercenary activities and nuclear proliferation.

I now come to the subject of the transformation of the judiciary. I am pleased to report that we are making progress in the transformation of the judicial system. In this regard, I thank the chief justice and the heads of courts in their leadership of the judiciary towards its transformation.

Two Bills, the Judicial Service Commission Amendment Bill and the Judicial Education Institute Bill are before Parliament. I am certain that, with the passing of these Bills, we will see greater transformation of the judiciary system.

Let me say that I do have statistics here that indicate that we have actually improved our cycle time in the courts. We are noting, through reading the statistics before us, that the programme on case-flow management is beginning to show results. I think in time we will be able to present a more detailed report on this matter.

With regard to the Guardians Fund, I must say that we have recorded progress in this area. I am pleased to announce that, in the past year, we have managed to automate three of the six sites and we are hoping to have all six sites automated by the end of this year. There is greater efficiency and I do know that the Chief Master is working very hard towards improving efficiency and capacitating the Masters.

I would like to conclude by calling on all of us as elected members, maybe precisely because part of our competency is constitutional development, to work together towards the advancement of the values entrenched in our Constitution. Thank you.

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Chairperson of the NCOP, Deputy Chair, Cabinet colleagues, chairpersons and hon members of the select committee, hon members of the NCOP and distinguished guests, our rallying cry in Correctional Services is “to serve with humility and pride”.

This month, the nation is celebrating the invaluable contribution of young people in the liberation of our country. The young lions of 1976 braved the brutality and the repression of the time to make their mark in the struggle for freedom and democracy. Many of our hon Members of Parliament were part of that generation of young people whose contribution will always be cherished by all of us. Their determination to succeed against all odds will always inspire us to ensure a better life for all in carrying out our constitutional and legal mandate as Correctional Services.

In their honour, we have committed ourselves to development, integrity, recognition of human dignity, efficiency, accountability, justice, security and equity as values that will guide all our endeavours as the department which was a bastion of the repressive apartheid regime.

We approach our assignment with the pledge never to dishonour the cause of freedom, development and democracy for which many laid down their lives. We carry out our assignment determined never to fail this cause. We remain inspired to contributing in building a just, peaceful and safe society, by enforcing court-imposed sentences, detaining inmates in safe custody while maintaining their human dignity, developing their sense of social responsibility and promoting the general development of all inmates and persons subject to community corrections. I am happy with the progress we have made cumulatively over the past few years in this regard, despite huge challenges.

It is important to give an account of what we achieved during the previous financial year which may have been drowned by a wave of public discontent about government’s efforts to fight crime. We do understand some people’s anger, their fear and emotional reaction to, amongst others, a violent wave of crime that we have witnessed and that was well published in the media albeit in a distorted manner.

With an allocation of R10,74 billion for the 2007-08 financial year, the department houses in its 240 facilities 158 859 offenders. So, whenever there is a clamour for one offender, I always look at people like you, General, as people who are hallucinating. In a figure of 44 579 awaiting- trial detainees, women constitute 2,1% of the total offender population. This massive operation is a labour-intensive exercise currently resourced with over 41 000 officials nationally. So, we are not talking about a Mickey Mouse department when we talk about the Department of Correctional Services; we are talking about a huge department.

Rehabilitation programmes are carried out in factories, in workshops, in classrooms and on farms as well as within communities as an integral part of blending our functions with the mainstream government programmes of fighting poverty and underdevelopment. In many respects we are able to produce enough furniture for ourselves, enough tools as well as food like pork – we have got enough pigs in this country to feed the whole of Correctional Services. We have enough chickens; we don’t buy eggs; we don’t buy milk; we don’t buy bread; and we don’t buy vegetables to cover our institutional needs while in cases of oversupply we donate that food to local communities as a contribution in fighting poverty. Thousands of families across the country can bear testimony to this – regarding those who go around the country, not those who read newspapers only and read only negative stories in newspapers. And, those are the people I’m fed up with.

One of our many pockets of excellence is Durban-Westville. Our young school there produces the best matric results, which last year included six distinctions by a juvenile offender, Sifiso Zulu. In the true spirit of Operation Masibambisane, the SA Institute for Chartered Accountants offered Sifiso a bursary to study towards a B Com degree at the University of the Cape Town upon his release on parole in January. He got his distinctions in December and parole in January. He is at school now and he is learning. [Applause.]

Foremost in our minds and hearts is the creation of an enabling environment for effective correction and rehabilitation. Militating against this is overcrowding, which is an international phenomenon, and scarce skills that we don’t have. I am happy that the Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development touched on the awaiting-trial detainees, because, again, within the cluster, we work very well together to try and make sure that the system flows and the cases flow from the courts. So, therefore, I will never stand on any podium and attack my colleagues in the criminal justice system. It is not my responsibility to do that. My responsibility is to make sure that I work with them. It doesn’t, hon Mr De Lange, take away the responsibility that I will sit on them if things are not going well. [Interjections.]

The fact that we accommodate 38% more offenders than the available bed space remains unacceptable and we will remain resolute in addressing this challenge.

We have what we call in Correctional Services the National Council on Correctional Services, NCCS, that is led by Judge Siraj Desai and the Judicial Inspectorate of Prisons that is led by Judge Nathan Erasmus. They are pivotal in ensuring a continuous improvement in Correctional Services and in strengthening integrated governance. I take my hat off to these two outstanding judges and their teams for their incisive and visionary interventions, without which we would have been poorer in service delivery.

Today, our co-operation with judicial officials, in particular magistrates, has reached new heights, especially after a road show that has covered at least four provinces where we shared knowledge, experience and strategies for addressing challenges facing the correctional system in South Africa.

A parole audit commissioned in 2006 found that we have 19 584 backlog cases across the country. We intensified this work with Case Management Committees, CMCs, and the Correctional Supervision and Parole Boards, CSPBs, and we registered a 49,6% reduction to 9 957 cases. We are keeping track of all these through the parole boards.

The Cabinet legkotla of 2006 directed us, as Correctional Services, to lead the project of re-engineering the management of awaiting-trial detainees, MATD. An interdepartmental task team composed of people from Justice and Constitutional Development, the SA Police Service, Home Affairs and Social Development is driving the programme.

We have also established an embryonic chief directorate within the department that will make sure that we take awaiting-trial detainees out of our correctional centres. They will go into places of safety, so that we can deal with those that are sentenced and who have already started their sentences.

We are engaged in a higher gear of service delivery. I am happy to formally announce to this House that we have a new national commissioner, Mr Vernie Petersen, and I do apologise for his absence here today. He brings with him a wealth of experience, knowledge and wisdom about Correctional Services and our partners. He has been our regional commissioner in KwaZulu-Natal and Gauteng as well as our corporate services chief deputy commissioner. I have absolute confidence in his abilities as a leader, as a manager, as an agent of transformation and a firm decision-maker who will take no nonsense from anybody. I wish to assure you that Mr Petersen will pick up the reigns that were left by Linda Mti and smoothly proceed from where he left. His appointment is a show of confidence in the current executive management that was put together by “Richman” Linda Mti.

I am also to announce today that we have appointed a new regional commissioner for the Western Cape. Mr James Smallberger was confirmed today by Cabinet as the new regional commissioner of the Western Cape and I wish him well in his work.

Part of gearing the department for heightened service delivery is the seven- day working week model we have adopted. I am happy again to say that the target we set for ourselves for the employment of 8 311 additional employees was surpassed. So, sometimes when I hear people saying “shortage of staff, shortage of staff”, I wish that those people could go to our centres and see for themselves. Some of them just speak from reading and getting all the stories that they get from wherever and never go to those correctional centres. I must say, there is one comrade here who never fails to come and report to me about issues when he visits the centres. He was sitting there, but he is gone now. Where has he gone to?

An HON MEMBER: Absent without leave – AWOL!

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: He has gone AWOL? We have also made strides in numerous facets of building the requisite institutional capacity within the department. We have adopted an integrated human resources strategy. We have instituted a new dispensation for health workers as a scarce-skill category of workers, and that is one of our biggest problems – the professionals – but my Deputy Minister will talk about that.

We have also implemented a very successful relationship by building an objectives model entered into with the Police and Prisons Civil Rights Union, Popcru, and with the Public Service Association, PSA. I must say, in the same breath, I want to thank those workers who have really committed themselves to working for this department and who acknowledge, together with the leadership of their labour unions, that we are an essential service and therefore we don’t have to go out and do silly things.

We have also contributed to the Accelerated and Shared Growth Initiative for South Africa, Asgisa, by engaging 500 unemployed graduates to gain critical experience in our department of Correctional Services, DCS. Security remains one of our main tasks within the department.

We have improved our security as well, with escapes being reduced to a new historic low number since the attainment of freedom. Only 93 offenders escaped last year during the 2006-07 financial year – from as high as 281 in 2002-03. You must give us a big hand for that. [Applause.] Thank you. We are not only talking about Annanias Mathe and muthi and anything; we are talking about the general picture of this country.

Regarding construction, we are busy with the building of five new facilities. Kimberley is up and running and feasibility studies have been done for the other ones. We will now proceed to the next phase of appointing project managers. The Treasury, Public Works and us have agreed and we have taken a decision that we are going to build the five facilities. I’ll tell you where they are: East London in the Eastern Cape, Nigel in Gauteng, Klerksdorp in North West, Port Shepstone in KwaZulu-Natal – smile, MEC, so that when I build you Port Shepstone you will know where to take them when you arrest them. So, please smile. We are going ahead with those. The only ones that are left behind are Leeuwkop and Polokwane. Regarding feasibility studies, Leeuwkop is still a problem; and the problem with Polokwane is about securing the land, but we will get it eventually. We have many partners that we work with including the National Institute for Crime Prevention and the Reintegration of Offenders, Nicro; Khulisa and the SA National Council On Alcoholism and Drug Dependence, Sanca; Business Against Crime; Open Society Foundation; Moral Regeneration Movement as well as the University of Tshwane.

Have you heard what I said? I have not mentioned the SA Prisoners Organisation for Human Rights, Sapohr, because I don’t have a partnership with Sapohr. I’ll never have a partnership with Sapohr. It is as simple as that. [Interjections.] He got arrested the other day wearing the uniform of a prisoner. Police, everywhere you see anybody wearing the uniform of prisoners, arrest them. Arrest them and let them get charged. Glorifying wrong acts of offenders and …

Let me express my gratitude to Kgoshi. Thank you very much to you and your select committee for the collective wisdom that you bring to us. Your oversight role enables us to focus on the ball rather than on the person. Thank you very much for the collective leadership that you and your members provide. [Applause.]

My gratitude goes to my officials who work day in and day out, even those who are in Ncome, those who are in Ixopo, Polokwane, Tzaneen and all over the country who work very hard. I’m saying thank you to them for the work that they do and their commitment.

I know we are looked at as a very negative department, but I know we are turning the tide. Things are coming around and I’m making a call to all of you, as members of the NCOP: Do visit prisons or correctional centres. You know, I am interchanging so that you know correctional centres are prisons. Please visit them.

Mluleki, don’t complain to me about the escapes when you don’t visit prisons. Please, do visit prisons and make sure you know what is going on in there. He always complains and says: “You know, your people …” So, please visit prisons. We serve with pride and humility. Thank you. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Chairperson, we presented our Budget Vote in this House last year and mentioned the issue of restructuring the SA Police Service in order to better and bring the services we render closer to our communities. I am delighted to report back to you that we did not only dissolve the area offices, but we have managed to cluster our police stations for improved command, control and co- ordination. This clustering gives an opportunity to cluster stations to unite in joint projects and deal with cross-station precinct crimes and threats. In the end, there will be 198 accounting police stations.

The closure of the area offices and redeployment of those experienced officers to the station levels has created and provided better services to our communities. Operational managers and personnel from 43 area offices throughout the country were redeployed to the stations. This will also improve police response times to crime scenes.

The restructuring of our service will not be complete without the involvement of our communities. We have formed partnerships with relevant stakeholders in our communities and we hope they will be the eyes and ears of the police. Those are the principles that will guide us as we implement our philosophy in community policing. In the early years of our democracy it was difficult to build confidence between our communities and the police, but things are much better now. However, we still need to continue creating better levels of trust between the people and the police.

Community policing as an appropriate policing philosophy for South Africa has been discussed with several stakeholders and was endorsed. We deliberated the matter with the labour unions. We have also interacted with the relevant unions, Sapu and Popcru, which are subjective partners in the police. We are also engaging with other stakeholders, which would include other religious groupings and the business sector.

In many communities where people work together with police, levels of crime have gone down. Apart from patrolling their streets, the people have also established networks to generate and share information. That information is given to the police and has helped to enhance investigations.

The experience of good partnerships between the people and the police has become a feature in communities such as Alexandra, Sebokeng, Orange Farm, Orlando, Duduza and Jabulani in Gauteng province; Gugulethu, Maitland and Khayelitsha in the Western Cape; Fernie and Kwaggafontein in Mpumalanga; Tumahole in the Free State; Tsolo and Queenstown in the Eastern Cape; Kuruman in Northern Cape; Ezibayeni, Osizweni and Kokstad in KwaZulu-Natal; Giyani in Limpopo; just to mention a few.

Community policing forums, CPFs, have a special task to co-ordinate the relationship between communities and the police. The new arrangement will allow CPFs, together with communities, to discuss with the police the priorities affecting the relevant communities and put together a policing programme that will be co-owned by the communities and the police. The police must go back to the communities and report on the crime trends in their areas and on the extent to which they are succeeding in reducing crime in their areas. This will assist with the oversight regarding the performance of police on the basis of the agreed priorities by the relevant communities and police.

We need to look at how we define the relationship between the SA Police Service and the municipal police services. In this regard, I want to indicate that it is not our intention to change the administrative relationship between the municipal police services and their municipalities. But, our intention is to realign the means for better command and control with powers which fall under the national police commissioner as stated in the Constitution.

Currently, there are many challenges we face in the fight against crime. One of the matters we are dealing with is the nature of the violent crime we are experiencing in South Africa. The manner in which crime is accompanied by such a high degree of violence in our country has become a serious concern, therefore all of us need to be concerned in making sure that we participate and partner in fighting crime in this country.

At this stage, in more than 50% of cases where people are murdered, we must indicate that firearms were used. A study over the past 10 years also indicates that firearms were used in 77,6% of attempted murder cases and 81,5% of aggravated robberies. That shows the level of challenge we are facing when it comes to the firearms in our country.

As a way of dealing with the challenges in the fight against crime in our country, the SA Police Service is involved in other projects with various stakeholders. One of those projects is a joint action plan between the Department of Education and the SAPS, which is aimed at improving safety at schools. These partnerships intend to address issues such as security control and infrastructural challenges at schools. Strategies have been developed to address problems such as bullying, carrying and use of dangerous weapons, gangs, substance abuse and other criminal actions.

The Safer Schools Programme resulted in the development of an integrated guideline on safer schools. This programme aims to establish strategic links between schools and relevant police stations. But also, as the SAPS, we welcome and support the proposed legislation on random searches and seizures in schools. We also acknowledge the ongoing challenge of violence at schools which has, in many instances, resulted in the attack and killing of educators and learners.

Over the past six years we have continued to increase the human and material resources of the SA Police Service. Particular attention over the years has also been paid to the revision of conditions of service for members regarding better remuneration packages and other benefits.

Currently, the personnel numbers in the service escalated from 140 560 in 2003-04 to 149 060 in 2004-05 and 156 060 in 2005-06. Currently we are at 163 060. By the end of the 2009-10 financial year, the personnel strength will be 193 240. The service, therefore, has seen expansion by 44 060 members since 2003. Replacement of personnel losses during that period was 20 000, bringing the figure therefore to 64 060.

The budget of the SA Police Service has also seen a growth of 58% from the 2003-04 financial year to the 2007-08 financial year. The biggest slice of our budget, R15,5 billion, is for visible policing, that is crime prevention. Visible policing is divided into crime prevention, borderline security and specialised interventions.

We need to indicate that, over the past three years, the allocated budget for policing has increased by 43%. Personnel expenditure continues to be the biggest portion of the budget. More money has been invested in the further expansion of the vehicle fleet, radio communication, information technology and firearms. We also need to indicate that the budget for the 2010 Soccer World Cup has been adequately enhanced.

To further enhance our police capacity, we are going to invest in mobile command vehicles and helicopters that will be fitted with modern technology over the next three years. We will buy three such vehicles in the current financial year and we will be able to buy five mobile command vehicles and seven helicopters as part of crime combating in our country.

Last year, we reported on the agreement between the SAPS and the Department of Public Works. This agreement allowed police to assume responsibility for their own accommodation. Since then, we have upgraded 19 police stations and built 11 new police stations. So far, the latest police stations built have victim-friendly facilities for the victims of sexual abuse. The current police stations are also being upgraded to ensure that victim- friendly facilities exist in all our police stations. We are also building a forensic science laboratory in Parow, which we hope will assist in our forensic matters.

In the Gauteng province we have established a new digital trunk radio network which incorporates the Tetra system, which assists in facilitating comprehensive policing and better response to the needs of our communities. It will be switched on during October this year.

We have established a hi-tech project centre that will satisfy the need for a better co-ordinated approach to crime information and the utilisation of available skills and technology. This centre has given investigators easy access to all relevant information which they have used successfully to oppose bail, identify suspects and apprehend wanted persons.

We have used the centre in recent times on organised aggravated robberies, including cash-in-transit heists, bank robberies and break-ins. We are also paying special attention to residential and business robberies, and vehicle hijacking. In the relatively short period that we have been using the centre, a number of successes have been achieved in provinces such as KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo and Eastern Cape. Currently we are also looking at cyberspace crime or “e-crime” as often as we can, because it also poses a big challenge for us as the police, especially when it comes to globalised crime in our world.

In the endeavours of the SAPS to address the scourge of serious and violent crime, various integrated strategies were adopted. One of them was a strategy which had an emphasis on arresting perpetrators wanted for murder and attempted murder.

We have established a dedicated permanent capacity in the police, referred to as the investigative psychological unit, to address other serious contact crimes like serial murder and rape cases. This unit has already yielded positive results.

The use of firearms during incidents of crime has become a serious concern in our country. We will continue increasing the issuing of competency certificates which will assist in dealing with the concerns and the blockages in the firearms control offices. A total of 120 121 competency certificates were finalised and 84 885 renewal firearm licences have already been issued.

We are currently busy training and making sure that the SA Police Service is properly and adequately capacitated. Therefore we have provided various training courses for our students and for those who are already in the Police Service.

We recognise the challenges faced by the Independent Complaints Directorate and we will continue with all efforts to ensure that problems about not accessing the ICD receive special attention, and that we are able to expand the ICD to all areas in our country.

The secretariat has been tasked with assisting the community policing forums, CPFs, in the programme by revamping them. It is envisaged that the reorganisation of the CPFs will continue into the next financial year. The secretariat will lead the process of reviewing legislation in this instance and also on amendments to the South African Police Service Act. I thank you.

Kgoshi M L MOKOENA: Chairperson and hon members, it is that time of the year again when, as Parliament, we are expected to pronounce our verdict on the performance of those respective departments. But before I do that, allow me to express my sincere thanks to my Ministers and Deputy Ministers for their co-operation with yours truly and my committee. For example, the Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development and her deputy addressed the committee two days ago and the committee was so enriched by the inputs by the two politicians. We all agree that self-motivation cultivates passion in others to work.

If something happened in the Department of Correctional Services, yours truly and his committee would be the first to know about whatever happened, because the hon Minister and his deputy are not shy to pick up their phones and inform us timeously. What more could we ask for? Whenever we ask these two to come and brief us at any time, they are also available. It is true that your reputation is not built on what you are going to do but on what you have done. It is the same case with other Ministers when they are not engaged with their heavy schedule.

What makes me happy is that whenever we visit provinces, officials from all these cluster departments are always there to make sure that our visits are without obstacles. It is true that unless you believe, you will never understand. Yes, we agree it is true that when you shoot for the moon, even if you miss you should not mind because you will land amongst the stars. Thanks to you my humble, cool, evergreen, dedicated, magnificent, wonderful, calculated, excellent and dynamic Ministers and Deputy Ministers.

Back to the verdict on the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development: Hon Minister, let me take this opportunity to thank you and your deputy for the support that you always give this committee. Let me convey my thanks to your regional directors, that is Adv Sonti of Limpopo, Mr Malema of North West and Ms Tshabalala from KwaZulu-Natal.

The co-operation that we got when we visited these provinces was out of this world. When we visit their respective provinces, they accompany the committee for the whole week, non-stop. These are people we are going to recommend to you, hon Minister and your deputy. If there is a space for them to get promoted, do not hesitate, promote them. [Laughter.]

Transformation in the judiciary is no longer negotiable. Unfortunately, regarding those who feel threatened or are afraid to hear the word “transformation”, I think they are in the wrong country. Hon Minister, please push as hard as you can – you have our support. To you hon Minister and your deputy, the only thing I can say is: Just focus on winning this game and to hell with how you win it.

During the budget hearing it was clear that the department is not doing enough to popularise our equality calls. Maybe we need to improve our marketing strategies, because they are available and they are helping us a great deal. The only advice I can give to these officials who are in charge of this programme is that they should use the same strategy that they used when they were popularising Operation Isondle.

One other thing that was raised by many of our magistrates is the shortage of interpreters in their courts. In one office, for example, there are five court rooms but only three interpreters. Obviously, this means that two courts are not going to function. I know you can do something about this.

One of the challenges that we raise is this: We discovered that from court managers downwards, the gap is too big. Those managers have to use ordinary clerks to assist them. The situation is not workable. Let me welcome the idea of retraining our judges, hon Minister. We can’t wait to see the operation of the Justice College.

I know that there are those who are reluctant to be retrained. Maybe it is because they have reached a ceiling; one never knows. Unfortunately, we can’t compromise on this one. Let us just, as an example, look at the sentencing patterns; let us look at the case of that young man who used a toy to hold that Home Affairs official hostage. That young man was sentenced for five years while he had been waiting for his ID for more than three years.

Again, look at the case of that young boy Sello of Limpopo who was shot and killed because he was mistaken for an animal. The person who killed that young boy got a suspended sentence and he was able to pay the R10 000 fine. Something must be done about our sentencing patterns.

In many of the offices that we visited we found that conditions were not that good. I am glad that there is now commitment from the Department of Public Works to come on board. The less I talk about it the better, because the Minister has touched on that and was satisfied with the explanation. Just imagine, hon Minister, in one office we were told that they were waiting for globes from the Department of Public Works for more than six months.

I am glad that the Scorpions are no longer using their Hollywood or FBI- style when effecting arrests. It was not necessary. There was a big debate in the newspapers, and in some parties, about political prisoners who are still languishing in our jails. I don’t know how true it is, but I am glad that the Minister dealt with it effectively. However, if there is a need for it to be emphasised, we would be happy to handle it.

With regard to Correctional Services, escapes from our prisons are a thing of the past or they have gone down drastically. Thank you very much, hon Minister, for that. This was confirmed by all your area commissioners. It was only the incident you touched on regarding that tiny man up there in Pretoria who so nearly tarnished the image of the department. I am busy looking for a date when we, as a committee, will sit down and talk about some of the things that are still outstanding in connection with the same matter.

I know, hon Minister, you have done well in responding to the Krugersdorp incidents. Thanks very much for that, because you really acted swiftly and to our satisfaction.

I think, hon Minister, your officers get a raw deal because they belong to the security cluster, but when they want to bargain for salaries they are placed under a general bargaining council. To some of us that doesn’t make sense. Let us go and review it, because your officials are complaining about it and they feel they would be comfortable to be placed under the security bargaining council.

Time flies very quickly and it is so unfair to this committee that we are given the same minutes as departments who are debating only one department. We cannot do anything about this. Let me leave the other matters because I might not be able to say what I wanted to say, based on the time allocated to me.

With regard to Safety and Security, I want to thank MEC Cele from Kwazulu- Natal. When we were in that province, he took his time and he was with the committee for the whole time and he assisted us and made us understand the situation in Kwazulu-Natal. Ndosi, siyabonga baba. [Thank you very much, hon MEC.]

My colleagues will deal with some of the issues that were raised during the budget hearings, because the clock is really threatening me. To my colleagues, members of this committee, I want say: Thanks for displaying those leadership skills. We started with these budget hearings from 7 May until last Tuesday on 12 June, when we finished our meeting at 20:00 in the evening. We didn’t even have enough days to meet as a committee hence we resorted to evening sessions. You have displayed those skills once more by demonstrating that you believe in the sacredness of work, through which you must do those things that are expected of you and, above all, fulfil the purpose for which you are in this Parliament. As for me, I am humbled by that. Well done, colleagues! What separates the diligent from the lazy, is that the diligent have the mind to work.

Because I am left with only 13 seconds, let me thank my colleagues and all parties in this committee. In my committee we are not politicking; we play the ball not the man. I got full co-operation from these members, regardless of their political affiliations. I hope and believe that even when we are going to vote, they would do the same. Thank you very much.

Mr D A WORTH: Deputy Chair, hon Ministers, Deputy Ministers, all MECs present, guests, hon members, I would like to thank the various departments, their Ministers, and in particular our committee chairperson, the hon Kgoshi Mokoena, for arranging the detailed briefings over the past few weeks. It has indeed been a very busy period, with our committee sometimes sitting up to 20:00 and then the hon Deputy Chair having to arrange supper for us. It has been much appreciated. I didn’t realise that there were so many commissions and units involved.

The criminal justice cluster, namely Justice and Constitutional Development, Safety and Security and Correctional Services, interlink with one another. Due to time constraints, I had prepared an eight-minute speech which I am used to having but I have been given an extra four minutes, which is unbelievable and I can possibly go a little bit slower.

I intend to deal with only three of the five Budget Votes, namely Safety and Security, Justice and Constitutional Development and the Independent Complaints Directorate. I wish to apologise to hon Minister Lekota and hon Minister Balfour, for I won’t be touching on theirs but they will probably be saying thank heavens that the DA won’t be speaking on their departments! I also want to avoid a lot of the things that have been said in the National Assembly, where possible, because otherwise we are just repeating things, but sometimes it is unavoidable.

Deputy Chair, whilst the crime rate is supposedly declining, in certain instances many people do not bother to report crime incidents to the police other than to obtain a case number for insurance purposes. Fifty South Africans are murdered every day of the year and 55 000 women and girls are raped each year in this country, with the majority of rapes not even being reported. The crime rate is totally and utterly unacceptable! What perturbs the public the most, and the Deputy Minister alluded to this, is the violent nature of the crimes committed. According to the SA Police Service, some 91 of their members were killed on duty during 2006-07. Just in the past few weeks in Cape Town alone we had two policemen shot dead whilst investigating a burglary. We had an incident on a highway in Milnerton where a vehicle was ambushed and two of the occupants killed – reminiscent of the Wild West. Learners even at schools are starting to stab one another. In all these incidents not one of the perpetrators has or gives one iota of respect for law and order.

Twenty national departments spent a total of R269,5 million on private security firms in 2006. This total represents a R118,5 million or 78,5% increase from 2005. This reconfirms that South Africa is in the grip of serious and sustained crime. The criminal justice cluster is responsible for a substantial proportion of this total expenditure – some R224 million or 83%. There are possible explanations for this substantial increase but, ultimately, every decision made was an attempt to increase security in response to an increase in crime. The DA’s policy has always been that the non-core functions of the criminal justice cluster should be outsourced so that the police can focus their attentions on priorities elsewhere. However, it remains to be seen whether this increase in expenditure is in fact freeing up more policemen and women to fight crime on the streets at the taxpayer’s expense.

The Independent Complaints Directorate, ICD, is an organisation created to allow for public protection in the case of police abuse. One-fifth of the entire SAPS’s budget – R5,3 billion – is currently owing in relation to cases, many civil in this regard, which in itself demonstrates that the Independent Complaints Directorate is a vital organisation. Some 529 members of the police were suspended for corruption alone this past year.

The ICD is, however, woefully understaffed and underfunded. More than 280 critical positions have been vacant since the directorate’s inception in 1977 due to a lack of funding, and some 22 satellite offices are still required throughout the country. The DA supports the implementation of these satellite offices and the additional allocations made to upgrade investigator and lower-level support posts.

The National Prosecuting Authority, the Special Investigating Unit, Assets Forfeiture Unit and the Scorpions appear to be well run.

Madam Deputy Chairperson, some of the magistrate courts’ buildings are in a poor state of repair with many having no air-conditioning as well as poor security and even poorer facilities for the disabled. We did hear the Deputy Minister stating that R120 million would be made available to improve the facilities for the disabled, about which we are pleased. There is still underspending on the justice budget despite the many demands on it. We do, however, welcome the R308 million spent on new buildings and upgrading of infrastructure during 2006-07 and the R467 million allocated for facilities management for the 2007-08 financial year.

Court sitting hours at all three levels have decreased over the past years, but the Deputy Minister stated in his reply in the National Assembly that the results were a “mixed bag” and that the courts performed no worse than in the past. The people of South Africa, however, expect much improved results. The lower courts currently carry 209 572 cases, with an official backlog of cases over a year old amounting to 36 322.

The Legal Aid Board, which utilises mostly candidate attorneys, complains that they lose many of their personnel who become prosecutors whilst the prosecutors in turn desert for the Bench because of the pay increases given to the magistrates. The Deputy Minister has stated that he is prepared to discuss the matter with National Treasury and the Department of the Public Service and Administration to see what can be done. A more structured system needs to be put in place urgently.

In her recent presentation to the parliamentary committee, the chief justice appealed for the contested clauses to be removed from the Supreme Courts Bill and the Constitution Fourteenth Amendment Bill to enable the urgently needed transitional aspects of these Bills to be implemented. The Minister, however, in a media briefing stated that she was not prepared to remove these controversial elements from the Bills, which many believe, including the DA, will infringe on the independence of the judiciary. I am sure that this House would like to know what the Minister’s intention is with respect to these two important pieces of legislation.

Deputy Chair, the DA cannot support Budget Votes No 19, 20, 22 and 23 for all these reasons and more.

I thank you, Madam Deputy Chairperson. [Applause.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M N Oliphant): Order! Hon members, in terms of the Rules of this House, I’m still the House Chairperson. Can I plead with the members to address me as House Chairperson or just Chairperson? The position of Deputy Chairperson is a senior position.

Mr A J L MOSEKI: Chairperson, hon delegates, Ministers, Deputy Ministers, MECs from the different provinces, special delegates and our distinguished guests, peace, justice and stability are the most fundamental pillars of the developing state. The justice cluster, whose Votes we are debating today, has the constitutional mandate to manage and discipline military forces which must ensure that the citizens are defended, the Republic is protected, and that the territorial integrity of the country is also absolutely defended from all forms of aggression both inside and external.

From divisive apartheid and bantustan surrogate justice systems, progress has been made in this cluster. This cluster, particularly the Defence Force, has achieved the most important milestones to ensure that we have a united, nonracial and disciplined defence force. The Defence Force is playing a very strategic role internationally to ensure that there is peace and stability, and that democracy prevails in our neighbouring countries.

The Defence Force also plays a very important role in combating crime together with the SA Police Service in the country. Transformation has been made in the Defence Force and very good and qualitative results have been achieved, particularly at middle and senior levels. [Interjections.]

This Defence Force has now become the defence force that we had hoped would be in place to serve and protect its citizens. Indeed this Defence Force is doing precisely that. But there are challenges that are still visible in the department and we appreciate the fact that some work is being done to ensure that these challenges are dealt with.

Challenges still remain regarding the transformation of the Navy, particularly your middle management and downwards. Gender representation is still lacking, according to the report that was presented to us. We are also aware that this has to do with historical reasons and we appreciate the efforts you are making to ensure that there is a total transformation in this section.

The other section that also seems to be challenged is air defence. The skills distribution still seems to be very skewed there. They are not spread, as the committee would have really liked. We also understand the challenges and the historic reasons that bring about these challenges. However, we want to urge the Minister and the department to do everything in their power to ensure that these challenges are dealt with.

We appreciate and we are aware that the department is putting in a lot of effort, because it has an established partnership with various institutions of higher learning. The department is also participating in Asgisa and Jipsa initiatives to ensure that scarce skills are being addressed. We want to take this opportunity to compliment and commend the Ministry and the department for representing us in the peace mission that is taking place at an international level.

Regarding Safety and Security, my chairperson has already spoken on this matter but I think it is also important for us to share a few experiences to say that the select committee has been to a number of provinces, as the chairperson has said. We are proud to say that the achievements of the department that we observed there are really commendable.

There are also challenges with regard to this department. In some areas we visited we discovered that the holding cells were not in good condition and were not suitable for human habitation. We also realised that the personnel shortage is hampering the quality of service in this department. We therefore want to urge the Ministry to do everything in its power to ensure that this is addressed. We are aware of the plans that are in place to deal with this matter, but we believe that is one area that needs attention.

With regard to justice, the chairperson has already said that we appreciate the co-operation that we get from the Minister, the Deputy Minister and the department. The few issues that one would want to raise relate to the challenges that we noticed as we were interacting with this department. Firstly, it seems that discipline regarding some justice officials is becoming problematic and we think and believe that the Ministry is aware of these challenges and is trying as much as it can to deal with this problem.

Secondly, concerning the language policy, our people who are from disadvantaged backgrounds are still compelled to use a language that they cannot use properly to present their cases. We are aware that there are interpretation services available for them. However, it is also quite clear that there is a shortage of personnel. We therefore want to appeal to the Ministry to deal with these issues.

In conclusion, we want to say, as a select committee and as members of the ANC, that despite all the challenges that are confronting the departments whose budgets we are debating, much is being done to ensure that quality services are delivered to our people.

Mr L RAMATLAKANE (Western Cape): Madam Chairperson, hon Ministers, hon Deputy Minister and hon members, the budget of this department that deals with criminal justice demonstrates one thing, namely that the government is serious in its fight against crime in the province and nationally.

Allow me to thank the national leadership for enforcing regulations aimed at making government departments move away from a silo-operation approach to more integration and co-operation. Today, we can say that our law- enforcement agencies are co-operating, working together in the fight against crime and are continuing to close the space for criminals in our province and nationally.

Today, we can confirm that our crime-fighting strategies see more and more agencies like the police, Directorate of Public Prosecutions, Directorate of Special Operations, Department of Correctional Services and the Department of Defence working together in a complementary manner, complementing one another to ensure that they fight and close the space against criminals; complementing one another and ensuring that criminal convictions are realised and that drug lords and gangsters are arrested and dealt with.

We are in agreement with the Minister that we must continue to drive a crime-prevention strategy and ensure that people are central in the fight against crime. We agree that this programme obviously requires political leadership. We must say that the 2007-08 budget will ensure that the crime- prevention strategy is implemented and is realised in the provinces as well. Through our provincial government budget, we will continue to ensure that work is done to complement law-enforcement agencies and to ensure that we continue to implement the strategy that recognises the importance and centrality of our communities.

When we look at the Western Cape, we can say that the challenges that we have continue to require that we work together in a co-operative and complementary manner, together in partnership with our people. We have seen over many years in the Western Cape that gangs and gangsterism are becoming the order of the day or a way of life, with parents not necessarily saying anything and supporting the silence regarding gangs and gang activities in their homes.

Today, we have a big challenge in the Western Cape concerning this fashionable drug that is called tik-tik or tik, ice or lollipop. We see more young children getting involved in these particular drugs. Today, we must deal with this challenge together with the parents and our communities and not accept it as a way of life for our children and our future generation.

We are hard at work to mobilise our communities in acting together with the policemen and women against crime. Understanding these challenges, where today young children at the age of six are exposed to drugs, like tik-tik, or are carrying drugs for someone in the community who ensures that they get paid by commission; understanding the violence in our schools that young learners are exposed to, we have implemented this Safer Schools Project in those 109 schools to ensure that we at least build social cohesion at a young age. Understanding this challenge, the social crime prevention programme becomes even more important. We need to approach it in an integrated manner, put it at the centrality of our communities and start building social cohesion in our society.

The national programme for restructuring our police structures in the last three years has, in fact, produced some major results in the province. The introduction of our Bambanani Against Crime programme, with thousands of volunteers, has become the brand name or household name in our townships or locations, cities and small towns. Today, our nationally supported train safety programme has in fact shown that where people are working together with our police, things are turned around, crime is in fact dealt with and we see a downward trend.

Our policemen and women are today proud to form this partnership with these volunteers, Bambanani Against Crime or a Neighbourhood Watch. In the past three years contact crime has, in fact, decreased by 23% in the province as a result of this partnership with our communities and volunteers against crime. In the past three years, crime on trains and public transport has decreased to 48% in the first year, 21% in the second year and 30% in the third year. This shows that where communities are working in unison, shoulder to shoulder with our law-enforcement agencies, we will continue to make a dent against crime.

Today, we can say that, in the past four years of piloting Bambanani or the High-flyer project, these projects have in fact made an impact in our communities. Today, we can say that those untouchable gang lords are being touched and some of them will face their day in court.

We have decided that 15 areas in the Western Cape where most contact crime takes place should receive high priority status. In these areas drugs, gangsterism and organised crime have become the order of the day. Restructuring and the deployment of the most experienced police as foot soldiers in the front trenches of crime ensures that we are making progress in these areas. We are now accelerating the sector policing programmes in those 15 priority areas in the province.

As this programme delivers on high-flyers, our justice system would of course be expected to rise to this challenge and prosecute these criminals. We can say that we are proud to have seen and noticed that, in terms of the Prevention of Organised Crime Act, some of those criminals - nine of them – have collectively received 124 years and 6 months in prison. This is what we see happening in terms of fighting the untouchables in crime.

As we continue to arrest the top high-flyers, I think the most challenging thing we need to raise here is that we will continue to see the backlog and an increase in our need for correction places. I think it is going to be a challenge that will require of us in the justice system to rise to the challenge of prosecution.

As we move forward and roll out this programme fast, through the willingness demonstrated by our communities and our people, we will see crime decreasing even more and more. I am aware that the integrated agencies are hard at work in dealing with case backlogs in the province. We are happy that our Defence Force remains committed to complementing our policemen and women in the fight against crime.

We are working with Business Against Crime and business communities in the fight against crime. By pooling our resources, we are sure that we can look forward to a successful Fifa 2010 Soccer World Cup. Pooling together private security forces in terms of 30 000 private security personnel, 16 000 volunteers and 22 000 police officers will make the Western Cape and the games much safer.

In conclusion, we are ready to ensure that our people have peace of mind and, in fact, over the years, our law-enforcement agencies have demonstrated that. Thank you, Madam Chairperson. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Madam Chairperson, Cabinet colleagues who are here with us, chairperson and members of the select committee, members of the NCOP, the leadership of the justice, crime- prevention and security cluster, ladies and gentlemen, with your indulgence, I would like to step a little bit back and recall what the President said in his 2004 state of the nation address, and I quote:

For too long our country contained within it and represented much that is ugly and repulsive in human society. It was a place in which to be born black was to inherit a lifelong curse. It was a place in which to be born white was to carry a permanent burden of fear and hidden rage. It was a place in which to live in some places was to invite others to prey on you or to condemn oneself to prey on others, guaranteed neighbours who could not but fall victim to alcohol and drug stupors that would dull the pain of living, who knew that their lives would not be normal without murder in their midst, and rape and brutal personal wars without a cause.

I stand here today, two days before our national commemoration of the 1976 students uprising that ushered in a new era in the struggle for the democratisation of our country. Today, amongst us in this august House are leaders and cadres of that revolution who, through their political activism and resistance to apartheid education, defined a new path that helped to shape the current democratic system that we enjoy today.

I must, in the same vein, allude to the fact that when we look back we see many reasons for celebration in Correctional Services against an environment that sometimes militates against the attainment of our goals. I should also acknowledge that we have standing challenges, some of them brought about by the fact that we are managing people who have wronged society and who are sometimes called social outcasts.

I can confidently proclaim that, under the able leadership of hon Minister Balfour, we are on course to meet this nation’s expectations as the Department of Correctional Services. I also wish to use this platform and opportunity to salute the gallant women and men of the 1976 youth generation. Some of them, as I said, occupy seats in this House and the National Assembly today.

Underpinning our whole programme of the Department of Correctional Services is the offender rehabilitation path, ORP, which we are committed to implement with much greater vigour this year. Key to the ORP is to ensure that we completely move away from the penal system of retribution and punishment to that of rehabilitation and social reintegration. In keeping with that direction, we have finalised the model for giving practical meaning to the new policy direction or the offender rehabilitation path. The programme’s nine phases seek to re-engineer our offender management approach to be needs-based and informed by an offender’s life cycle, as each stage demands different interventions by the department and other players in government and civil society.

The offender rehabilitation path does not only assist the offender to adapt to the corrections environment but also brings together the agents that will give meaning to the six service delivery areas that the department has identified in relation to offenders, namely: security, facility, corrections, development, well-being and social reintegration. Interventions regarding service delivery in these areas are based on thorough assessments in terms of security, risks and needs of offenders.

During the past financial year, 102 000 offenders participated in sports, arts and cultural programmes. We will however continue to strive to improve the numbers of beneficiary offenders in all our programmes. The Department of Correctional Services has also passed the target it set for the past financial year as it reached 17 818 offenders with its 48 psychologists against the target of 15 500 offenders. This trend was maintained in terms of the provision of spiritual care through 145 582 sessions instead of a targeted 162 500 as well as 86 571 social work sessions. Our department is very concerned about the health and welfare of both its staff and the offenders who are in its custody. Hence we have decided to source the assistance of two researchers from the Human Sciences Research Council to capture, analyse and tabulate health information collected during our health needs assessment campaign, in order to provide the department with an overview of the current status of health resources programmes and services to our members and offenders. This will assist the department with proper planning and the appropriate allocation of resources in order to improve the quality of health care rendered to the offender population as well as our members.

Regarding our HIV and Aids programme, we are committed to accelerating the facilitation of access to antiretroviral treatment for offenders by identifying correctional sentences that meet the minimum criteria for accreditation as comprehensive, prevention, care, support and treatment sentences.

During the reporting period, nine correctional sentences were credited by the National Department of Health. During the period of October to December 2006, a total number of 1 600 offenders were receiving antiretroviral treatment and a large number were also on pretreatment medication. With regard to HIV and Aids prevention programmes, 1 159 offenders and officials were trained as peer educators to strengthen the prevention initiatives. A total of 47 438 offenders were exposed to various HIV and Aids awareness programmes.

Regarding rehabilitation and social reintegration, one major challenge that faces us in any correctional system, and indeed in the world, is to ensure that as many offenders as possible are productively engaged in programmes aimed at turning them into law-abiding and socially responsible individuals. In that regard, it gives me great pleasure to report to this House that we have fulfilled an undertaking that we made last year, that is to finalise a policy on compulsory rehabilitation programmes for all offenders.

The implementation of a compulsory rehabilitation programme, the revision of current programmes and the possible implementation of new programmes is a phased-in process which will commence in this financial year, starting with the centres of excellence, and it will be expanded to include all correctional centres. However, as the hon Minister said earlier, we do face the challenge of scarce skills in particular professions such as social workers and psychologists who are the key drivers behind our rehabilitation programme.

Hon members, I still want to emphasise the fact that the constitutional stipulation prohibits the admission of children into correctional facilities, except when it is the last resort. Chapter 2, clause 28 of the Bill of Rights is clear on this constitutional imperative. It says: Every child has the right not to be detained except as a measure of last resort …

and also says every child has the right to be -

… kept separately from detained persons over the age of 18 years; and treated in a manner, and kept in conditions, that take into account the child’s age.

The Department of Correctional Services is indeed vigilant in monitoring and managing the reduction of children in our facilities. The Department of Correctional Services has, in addition, undertaken a baseline audit on its facilities, services and programmes to address the needs of vulnerable groups, including children. Subsequently, an integrated action plan has been developed by the department to address the needs of these vulnerable groups. The implementation of this action plan will commence in this financial year, 2007-2008.

Our concern, however, is the emerging worrying trends of not just aggressive and violent offenders but the increase of offenders incarcerated for sexual offences. That has gone up to 4,12% over the past six years which is 15% of the total offender population. Indeed, this changing profile of our offenders does not indicate the safety and security challenges concerning vulnerable women and children in our communities, and also not the safety of our officials, which we regard as paramount as well. In a short period of time, the Judicial Inspectorate of Prisons, under the leadership of Judge Nathan Erasmus, in consultation with various role- players, including the Department of Correctional Services, initiated a number of strategic changes to the work of the judicial inspectorate.

Chairperson, allow me to specifically and respectfully remind the hon members of the House that the establishment of the Judicial Inspectorate of Prisons forms part of this government’s ongoing transformation process, which is aimed at transforming the old inherited prison service into the Department of Correctional Services, which is focused and equipped to ensure that inmates are kept under humane conditions, and that they are treated with human dignity and are rehabilitated so that when they are released from custody they can occupy their rightful place in society.

I wish to align myself with the hon Minister in terms of using this platform to celebrate and commend the work done by the National Council on Correctional Services, NCCS. Under the leadership of Judge Siraj Desai, the NCCS has immensely contributed to improving the confidence of our judiciary in its community corrections function. The NCCS facilitated greater and better interaction between the Department of Correctional Services, the judiciary and the community. The NCCS also successfully drove the setting up of the Parole Review Board that started meeting in May 2006. It has adjudicated on a number of appeals and identified weakness in the roll-out of the correctional supervision and parole system. Currently, interventions are under way to address these weaknesses.

I may also take the opportunity to thank the hon chairperson for his able leadership, as well as the select committee for the way in which they have worked with the department in pointing out the challenges and for assisting us to address them. I also want to thank the hon chairperson, Kgoshi Mokoena, and the select committee.

Lastly, I can also without fear of contradiction say that we are firmly on course in building an ideal correctional system that cares for both victims and perpetrators of crime. Let me conclude by calling all of us in this House and beyond to join a national partnership to correct, rehabilitate and to reintegrate offenders for a safer and more secure South Africa. I do believe that Correctional Services can indeed be a place of new beginnings in this age of hope.

I would also like to take the opportunity to congratulate the newly appointed Commissioner of Correctional Services, Mr Petersen, in absentia. He is inheriting a very capable team that we are confident will steer us to where we want to go. I am convinced that, under your stewardship, Mr Petersen, we will continue on the path that we have started to tread since 2004 in building Correctional Services that is in line with our White Paper; and that, through the White Paper, we can unlock the potential of every offender in our custody and every staff member or official to be the best that they can be, and to make the Department of Correctional Services a place of new beginnings. I thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]

Mr A T MANYOSI: Madam Chairperson, hon Ministers, hon members, ladies and gentlemen, I would like to preface my input on the Budget Vote of the Department of Safety and Security with a brief comparison of the police activities in the undemocratic system of the past and the current democratic dispensation. The practices of the members of a police service are determined partly by the function of that institution in society, partly by its internal organisation and subculture, and partly by the legal framework that authorises or limits police activities.

In the past, in South Africa, the controls on the use of police powers within the law, and the restraints on the abuse of those powers outside the law were weakened by political, legal and institutional factors. The most important of these was the absence of political accountability by the police to the majority of the population in whose name they performed their duties, and who were subjected to the way in which they exercised their powers.

For black South Africans then, the absence of effective political channels to influence policing priorities and policies, at either national or local level, profoundly affected their attitude towards the police. As the DA indicated earlier, we are now able to hear about an increase and decrease in the incidence of crime. These incidents were there before but it was hidden because, in most cases, the crimes were committed by members of the police against the population – the black majority of this country.

It therefore became incumbent upon this government to introduce a radical review of the policing practice in South Africa by way of legislative measures, in line with the dictates of the Freedom Charter and the Constitution on equality before the law and to give meaning to it. As part of addressing the critical challenge of accountability of the Police Service to the people of SA, community police forums and community safety forums have to be in place, capacitated and functional in all police areas. At present their capacity and functionality, however, are not adequate, and enabling resources and facilities are required for that purpose. No effective policing can take place without co-operation and partnership with the citizens.

The primary function of the Department of Safety and Security is the prevention and combating of crime, to ensure the safety and security of our people and their properties. For this to be achieved requires the strengthening of the police stations by way of providing adequate resources in the form of police vehicles, provision of facilities and the enhancement of the functioning of police stations. Generally, the working conditions of members of the Police Service, including accommodation, have to be improved to ensure motivated personnel who are content with their welfare, and confident of their ability and capacity to deal with, prevent and combat crime.

As much as we require the police to ensure the protection and promotion of the human dignity of our people, their dignity too should be taken care of. This includes the hospital guards and the police reservists. Also of extreme importance is further continuous capacity-building through training and education that takes into account the fact that we come from a police state, and therefore such training and education should include good conduct and self-respect, the rule of law, equality before the law, and conducting proper investigations.

Training on proper investigation of cases must be emphasised, and would reduce instances where cases would be postponed due to poor or incomplete investigation. I must emphasise that the role of the police is to protect the people, not to oppress them. Evidence abounds that members of our Police Service are dedicated, determined and devoted to deliver safety and security services optimally to the citizens of our country, and they must be adequately assisted as far as possible, in terms of resources, to fulfil their constitutional and legislative mandate.

For maximum output and outcomes, it is of the utmost importance that the wheels of justice are sufficiently and consistently well-oiled to achieve the goals and mandate of our justice system and therefore inspire confidence in the ability of our government to ensure a peaceful and just society, and compliance with the rule of law.

One of the legacies we inherited from the apartheid system is the inaccessibility of justice. As in all capitalist countries, justice in South Africa has been for a chosen few, the rich, to the exclusion of the poor and indigent who, due to their circumstances, often fall foul of the law.

The Department of Justice has the mammoth task to overhaul the whole legal system which developed under centuries and centuries of colonialism that continues to perpetuate the imbalances in the distribution of wealth. The new legal system has to be designed in a manner that borrows that which is good from the indigenous traditions, customs and modes of conflict resolution in order for it to be truly South African.

It is against this background that we applaud and support the budget allocations that take care of these historical facts with regard to, inter alia, the laws that need to be changed, repealed or, at best, amended. The budget of the Department of Justice recognises the fact that, in order to truly provide access to justice, as the Minister put it in her budget speech, it is necessary to change the old apartheid-drawn jurisdictional areas of the lower courts which limit access to justice; and to acknowledge that most of the magistrates’ courts in rural and former black townships exercise limited jurisdiction, have no staff or budgets of their own and are dependent on the main courts, in the former white areas, to deliver essential justice services. These courts have to be overhauled in terms of their inadequate services and functioning.

The budget also takes into account that, in our country, like in any capitalist state, the cost of legal services imposes a great restraint on the poor. Furthermore, the demographic distribution, recruitment and training of lawyers generally put them at a great distance, geographically and socially, from the wretched of our land. The budget therefore ensures that the state takes the responsibility to ensure the promotion and upholding of human rights, on the basis of true equality before the law. Through an increased legal aid funding, it seeks to enable the department to develop a suitable legal aid system to ensure that opportunities for securing justice are not denied any citizen by reason of poverty or any other social disability. With the present appropriation, service delivery improvements and increases to its legal capacity will be achieved by the Legal Aid Board justice centres around the country.

There has been a deafening outcry about the inaccessibility of the services of the Master of the High Court, but there must now be a sigh of relief that the department has initiated a programme called Operation Sesifikile to expand the services of the office of the Master of the High Court to rural and other remote areas in order to reach the vulnerable members of society. Indeed, untold hardship has been experienced by beneficiaries in this regard, and the status quo has to change.

Some of the vexing issues that have been widely raised by our courts pertain to lack of resources, shortage of staff, equipment and the general condition of court infrastructure. On the face of it, the present budget allocation will go a long way to alleviate this situation through an increase in the number of courts, magistrates and prosecutors as well as the improvement of the infrastructure.

Whilst the Department of Public Works is not part of the cluster, it is critical to the provision and maintenance of the infrastructure for our courts and other accommodation needs for the cluster and therefore has to be constantly engaged to rise to the challenge of its mandate. We are assured that active engagements with the latter department are under way to address the issue of dilapidated buildings and general infrastructure. I thank you. [Applause.] [Interjections.]

Ms B L MATLHOAHELA: Chairperson, hon Ministers, Deputy Ministers, MECs, hon members, ladies and gentlemen, the ID took note of the efforts of the hon Minister of Safety and Security and the department, hence my speech is based only on Safety and Security and not on the whole cluster.

We support this Budget Vote, as I noted that efforts have been put in, but there are still some grey areas. I recall that a year ago a young lady was placed and locked up with men in a cell in Keimoes in the Northern Cape province by members of the SA Police Service. This woman was raped by a man in the same cell at knife-point. She was beaten with a belt. These articles are not supposed to enter the cell, but they did enter this one. This is the kind of service delivery members of the public must endure, and then it is expected of opposition parties to remain silent.

No, hon Chairperson, we cannot remain silent. [Interjections.] These are not party-political issues but community issues. This case appeared in court last week, after one year. The young lady is still traumatised because she received only one counselling session. It is under these circumstances that the state loses cases. How do we expect such a person to perform in court? The one SAPS member is still working and the other one committed suicide.

My question to the hon Minister, through the Chairperson, is: What is going to happen in this case to the member of the SAPS? What has been done to him to date? If it so happens that this woman has a complaint that needs to be attended to at this police station and this SAPS member is on duty, is she going to receive the service she deserves?

The ID requests the hon Minister to investigate this case. As leaders in this country we are all subject to accountability. This sort of action deserves the severest kind of discipline owing to its purposeful nature. By this I mean it was not an accident; it was cruelty.

The ID trusts that the Minister will to see to it that justice prevails. An injury to one woman is an injury to all women. These elements in the Department of Safety and Security need to be removed for they discredit the department, the government and the country as a whole. I thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]

Mr B H CELE (KwaZulu-Natal): Chairperson, I was worried that you were giving me four minutes as if I am an “identity party” member. Chairperson and hon Ministers, hon Minister Balfour requested me to smile. I was asking myself if I do need to smile, because I do have this philosophy that gives me sleepless nights. As a member of this government, under the ANC and at all levels, I would love to ensure that you don’t fall in the trap.

Whenever people speak and get on this podium …

An HON MEMBER: In this House. Mr B H CELE (KwaZulu-Natal): … in this House, at this time, they make a call for building more prisons. [Laughter.] I find it wrong for South Africans to make a call for building more prisons each time there is a problem related to crime. I would expect people to make calls for building more schools, technical colleges, play parks for kids and cinemas. [Applause.] I hope, as a ruling party, we will not fall into the trap of more prisons, more prisons and more prisons. Even those that they built could not forever accommodate everybody, including some of us. I am not very much into that, but I would say we welcome those five prisons. However, if those had been universities or colleges, they would have given more comfort to some of us. So, that’s a call.

I’m not going to deal with other departments, I will come back to Safety and Security. Anyway, I listened to the DA. It would have been awkward to hear a different tune coming from the DA down here. So, what that hon member is saying is what I’m used to hearing: We are not supporting. Anyway, if the hon member supports, they will lose their status of opposition. But even if they do lose it, they will still get their pay and it is thus not much of a problem. [Laughter.]

It is again a question of safety and security, and a question of our people living in peace and safety. I know it is a chain that begins with the police as the frontline and ends up with Correctional Services at the rear of the whole system. The involvement of the communities - I’ve said this before - will be important. Unfortunately, police in the frontline are very much disadvantaged because they get a lot of bashing. They arrest you and when you escape from the police cells people ask what it is that the police are doing. You get bail and people ask what it is that the police are doing. You get parole and people ask what it is that the police are doing. So, they have a serious problem. It is on that score that I say it would be proper one day to have a structure where all of us would be accountable to the communities.

I hope we will decipher the independence of the judiciary that we are calling for so much. Sometimes it is really overemphasised and you get scared when it looks as if it is not providing the service to the people that it is supposed to provide. I hope that this independence is not independence away from the communities. They must be accountable to communities. They must be independent from us, but when it comes to communities, even the justice system must be accountable to the communities. They must come, answer and explain themselves. They cannot just stay put in their towers forever, and when you touch them and you ask a question they say: “Sorry, you are infringing on our independence”. It should be acting on behalf of the people. And then people must one day be told what this independence is, when it comes to them.

I hope structures like community safety forums will be established one day and we will all sit there and answer – the Departments of Justice and Constitutional Development, Correctional Services, and Safety and Security. Anyway, police are forever exposed to that. We hope that that will happen.

Safety and Security – it has been proven, and it is so – cannot function outside the comfort of communities. It is on that score that in KwaZulu- Natal, as a province, we have put aside quite a bigger chunk of resources for the facilitation of relationships between the structures, especially the police and the communities.

For this year, we have budgeted R20 million; R35 million for next year; and R50 million for the following year for the facilitation of relationships, including what we term “communities in dialogue”, especially in the rural areas under the authority of amakhosi. Before trouble starts, or when we suspect that trouble is going to start, we should go there beforehand and engage the communities. In quite a few communities trouble has been avoided because of that kind of engagement. We believe that would ease the pressure on the police, who would have reacted by arresting people, but instead they have engaged communities.

The other major approach is that we are putting a lot of emphasis on the social mobilisation of communities against crime, especially targeting the market of thieves. Minister, KwaZulu-Natal will be coming to you with the request that everybody and anybody who buys stolen goods should be arrested along with the person who is selling these stolen goods. [Applause.] We believe that the market for stolen goods is making things worse, because if thieves steal the first TV, and then the second TV and nobody buys it, then they are not going to steal the third one. They steal the third one because the first two have already been bought. So, the market that is among the communities must be stopped and the communities must understand very well that if you are in the market of thieves, if you are in the market of crime, definitely, you have to suffer like other people who commit such crimes. So, that’s a call we want to make.

We will be working very closely with the Department of Education because we are worried about the crime rate at schools, and it is getting worse and worse. Indeed, we cannot later on say: “After all, those people belong in prison”. We will be working with Correctional Services and Social Development in order to establish centres for kids who are not supposed to be in these institutions, so that they could be removed. Also, it puts pressure on the police to ask what they are doing with the street kids. Those kids do not belong with the police and in prisons, they belong in the comfort of their homes. That is why Social Development should play a very significant role.

We know that money is budgeted for this, and we know that money has not been used effectively in terms of accommodating those children who are in conflict with the law. So, we will motivate that steps be taken to deal with this and we hope we will work together on this issue.

Having said the above, we will forever support this Budget Vote. We wish that this budget could be bigger than what it is now, but that does not stop us from supporting it. Otherwise, you would be saying we must go home and sit back until we get a big enough budget. I’ve heard that time and again. So let’s use what we have. Even in biblical terms, it is said you need to use what you have – the talents that have been given to you. If you get more talents at a later stage, that’s fine. As a matter of fact, this thing of not supporting the Budget Vote because it is not enough is even unbiblical. Thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.] [Laughter.]

Ms J MOFOKENG (Gauteng): Chairperson, Ministers, Deputy Minister, MECs, hon members, distinguished guests, Deputy Minister for Safety and Security, Gauteng, as a smart province, supports the Budget Vote. I feel honoured to have this opportunity to brief the House on the Gauteng safety strategy.

The Gauteng government recognises that the crime challenges facing our province are as a result of a complex interplay of historical and social factors. As has been repeatedly stated, this means that there can be no once-off or quick-fix solution to the crime challenges. Not only do we have to strengthen our ability to tackle serious violent crimes in the short term, but we need to address the factors that contribute to making people take part in crime, in the long term.

After an extensive process that looked carefully at the nature of the challenges and the lessons of the previous national strategy such as the National Crime Prevention strategy, Gauteng has developed a comprehensive strategy framework to guide and mobilise the resources of Gauteng to improve safety by reducing crime.

In August 2006, the provincial government adopted the framework known as the Gauteng safety strategy and the vision of the strategy is, I quote:

A globally competitive Gauteng city-region characterised by confident people, households and communities enjoying a high quality of life because they live, work and travel in a law-governed society free from fear, violence and crime.

The strategy is based on the following four pillars: improving the quality of police services through enhanced oversight; promoting social crime- prevention initiatives throughout government departments; improving the institutional arrangements for government to better understand, respond to and co-ordinate crime prevention initiatives; and mobilising and supporting increased community participation against crime.

The first pillar is about improving the quality of the police services. This is aimed at guiding the provincial government in contributing towards improving the quality of policing in Gauteng. As a national organisation, the SA Police Service receives its budget from the national Minister and it is under the direct command of the national commissioner. However, the Constitution provides for the provincial government to play an executive role through the monitoring of police performance and conduct. Where the provincial governments identify shortcomings, they can engage with the national Minister to rectify shortcomings through policing and budget decisions.

In line with these constitutional provisions, the Gauteng department of community safety will continue to monitor the police’s performance in tackling these crimes closely by establishing the Gauteng crime and police performance monitoring system, which will allow for the quick identification of stations that perform poorly to ensure targeted and decisive interventions, where necessary.

The system will be based on information generated by the SA Police Service Crime Information Analysis Centre and the station performance chart system. This information will allow the government to identify stations that are performing well, and those that are performing well will be recognised and supported. Those that are struggling will be carefully assessed to establish the specific challenges they face. Concerning the improved police strategy and targeting, this project is under way to assist the SAPS in developing strategic partnerships to tackle specific types of violent crime such as house robberies. Regarding the tackling of police corruption, the department will be carefully monitoring the implementation of the SA Police Service’s prevention of corruption and fraud strategy in Gauteng. This strategy is in the process of being finalised by the SAPS.

The second pillar is about social crime prevention. The main intervention under this pillar will be in the form of tackling violence against women and children, and the Gauteng schools safety plan. Regarding tackling violence against women and children, we have Ikhaya Lethemba, which is a victim empowerment centre.

This Ikhaya Lethemba is a flagship one-stop centre for victims of violence, and it is supported by a network of police station-based victim empowerment centres. This victim empowerment programme is the subprogramme of the safety promotion programme of the department of community safety. The aim of these programmes is to assist victims of crimes and violence, with a special focus on domestic violence.

During the past financial year, 867 victims of crime received professional services in Ikhaya Lethemba ranging from counselling, medical assessment and police and prosecutorial services. Domestic violence continues to be a crime that undermines the quality of life of too many women and children. Children who grow up in violent homes are at a higher risk of a range of negative social problems, including further risks of becoming perpetrators of victims of violence. Ikhaya Lethemba, therefore, seeks to protect women and children through assisting with protection orders and finding shelters from abusive spouses.

Furthermore, the centre assists victims with obtaining protection orders and providing skills training to improve self-reliance. The police station victim empowerment units, beyond the support that is provided to those victims who go to Ikhaya Lethemba, also provide support to victims through the victim empowerment centres in the police stations.

The department of community safety has worked with the SA Police Service’s family and child sexual offences unit to assist them during the initial period of police restructuring that took place in August last year.

Concerning the Gauteng safety programme, the department is to support the implementation of a provincial safety plan programme developed for the national Department of Education. We hope that, with the new programme that is called Hlayiseka [be safe], we are going to be able to tackle crimes at schools. The establishment of a pool of provincial implementers comprising educators and officials and key departments such as community safety, SAPS, Social Development, Transport and Health will be part of the strategy. The third pillar is about strengthening institutional arrangements for effective crime reduction. Regarding this, we will be dealing further with the necessity of establishing a criminal justice co-ordinating committee. The MEC has actually started to do that. The establishment of the Gauteng crime-prevention resource centre and the Gauteng crime and safety integrated information management system has taken place. This also includes a focus on real-time traffic safety and road safety strategy.

The last pillar is about encouraging community participation. The launch of the Gauteng safety strategy and Take-Charge campaign took place on 30 March 2007 at the Freedom Square, in Kliptown. This event was historic in the sense that it represented a large gathering of people, over 11 000 strong, representing a cross-section of all communities in the province and united in the common purpose of reducing crime in Gauteng.

The department continues to call upon people to take charge of the campaign against crime. We welcome initiatives such as that launched by Primedia and the national Minister of Safety and Security last week. The new crime reporting system is a good example of what the private sector can do working together with people in identifying and arresting criminals.

In conclusion, the department will launch a volunteer patrol programme with 100 patrollers. This programme will be integrally linked to our community policing forums and will be rolled out in the new financial year with 2 100 patrollers to support policing in 26 areas.

The department has also been granted R6 million for management of volunteers. To date, 800 patrollers have already been screened and we are in the process of exploring the possibility of training our volunteers at accredited institutions in Gauteng in order to assist them to understand the framework within which they operate and for them to become marketable. I thank you.

Mr Z C NTULI: Hon Chairperson, hon Ministers, Deputy Ministers, MECs of the peace and stability cluster, hon members, comrades and friends …

… siwuKhongolose sithi kungakuhle ukuthi mhlawumbe ke sicwaninge ukuthi kwenziwa yini ukuthi ubugebengu bamanje bube nesihluku nokubulala. Siyazi khona ukuthi sesivuna izithelo zobandlululo, lapho khona abantu babehliswa isithunzi. Singajabula uma uphiko lwezobunhloli obumayelana nobugebengu lungase lukwazi ukusisiza ngokuthi lusazise kusenesikhathi ukuze sikwazi ukuzivimba lezi zehlakalo zingakenzeki, ukuze futhi kuthi uma sizilungisa sikwazi ukukhipha umnyombo wethumba.

Sengathi kungaba nenye futhi indlela yokuqoqa izibhamu ezingekho emthethweni. Siyazi ukuthi kwake kwaba noshwele. Sengathi lokho kungaphinda futhi, kodwa manje sithi-ke ukushintsha kancane njengokuthi uma umuntu esiletha isibhamu singahlolwa ukuthi sake sasebenza yini, bese kuthi labo abangazilethi sibathathele izinyathelo ezinzima. Kokunye futhi kufuneka kube nomvuzo onikwa labo ababikayo ukuze bakwazi ukuza ngaphambili - asisho ukuthi bayampimpa, bayabika. Kufuneka kube nomvuzwano esibanika wona uma bebike laba bantu abanezibhamu ezingekho emthethweni.

Enkulumeni kaMongameli wezwe yalo nyaka, wakubeka kwacaca ukuthi iqhaza lomphakathi libalulekile kakhulu uma kuliwa nobugebengu. Amaphoyisa wodwa ngeke akwazi ukuqeda ubugebengu ngaphandle kokulekelelwa umphakathi. Yingakho siwuKhongolose sithi izinhlaka ezifana nama-CPF zibalulekile futhi kumele zinikwe amandla athe xaxa.

Futhi, empeleni kungangcono uma ama-CPF engaphenduka abe ama-community safety forums, ama-CSF, ukuze ahlonipheke futhi abe namazinyo, alume. Phela ama-CSF izakhiwo ezizohlanganisa iminyango kahulumeni eminingi njenge-SAPS, uMnyango wezobulungiswa, uMnyango Wezokuhlunyeleliswa Kwezimilo, uMnyango Wezasekhaya kanye neminye iMinyango.

Lapha-ke, Phini likaNgqongqoshe wezokuphepha, sidinga umthetho ozogunyazwa yiPhalamende ukuze kwenzeke lokhu kusungulwa kwama-CSF, khona kuzothi uma sesinawo ama-CSF akwazi ukulandela umuntu ngesikhathi eboshwa, nangesikhathi ethetha icala, nangesikhathi esegwetshiwe eseya ezikhindini noma futhi esephuma, ukuze umphakathi ukwazi ukumemukela.

Ekuqaleni kukaMashi kulo nyaka, siyikomiti lePhalamende le-NCOP lezokuthula siye savakashela KwaZulu-Natali lapho sizitholele khona ukuthi lokhu kukhalaza kokushoda kwezimoto akusafani naseminyakeni edlule. Sezikhona izimoto eziteshini zamaphoyisa. Into esiyibonile ongathi iseyinkinga ukuphathwa nokusingathwa kwalezi zimoto. Ake ngenze isilinganiso ngendatshana emfishane, Ndosi.

Ngike ngashayelwa ucingo umuntu wakwaSwayimani ethi kukhona abafuna ukumhlasela ngoba bethi uyathakatha. Ngibe sengishayela ucingo eWartburg ngathi, “Hheyi, kukhona umuntu othi ongase ahlaselwe. Ake niphuthume ningamaphoyisa, niyomvikela.” Iphoyisa engilithole lapho lithe, “Hhayi, izimoto azikho, iyodwa ekhona.” Ngenhlanhla ngibe sengishayela ukhomishina uNgidi. Ube esethi yena mangishayele ukhomishina wesiteshi, u-Canday. Emuva kokukhuluma noCanday, isidumo nje wabe esengishayela lo muntu obethe uyavinjezelwa esethi sekufike izimoto zamaphoyisa ezisiyisikhombisa. Kusobala ukuthi inkinga ilaphaya ekutheni siziphatha kanjani lezi zimoto.

Ngidlule-ke ngize ekuvikelweni kofakazi. Saphatheka kabi - kodwa ngiyazi ukuthi kwakungakabi yisikhathi senu Phini likaNgqongqoshe - ngesikhathi kuhlaselwa umntwana, ongudadewabo weSilo esiphethe manje, uZwelithini, kanye nendlunkulu yakhe. Sezwa ukuthi abenza lokho kuze kube yimanje basagcwele amathafa ngoba ofakazi bonke babulawa, icala lingakaqulwa. Labe seliyahoxiswa ngoba bengasekho ofakazi. Iyona leyo nto eyenza sithi lubalulekile uhlelo lokuvikelwa kofakazi nokuthi kufuneka lukhombise ukuba namazinyo ukuze abantu bangesabi ukuza ngaphambili.

Saphinda futhi savakashela nakoMbumbulu. Sengathi laphaya ezindaweni zasemakhaya zingaba khona iziteshi zamaphoyisa ezinhle ezikwazi nokuthi zigcine abantu abasalindele ukuyothetha amacala. Lezi ziteshi kufanele zibe seduze kwezinkantolo ngoba sabona umuntu eMbumbulu esuka ngale ephelezelwa iphoyisa ngezinyawo. Sengathi kungazanywa ukuthi kulungiswe lokho.

Uma siza lapha kwezobulungiswa, ngizothanda ukusho ukuthi sesike savakashela izifundazwe eziningi lapho besifike sithole khona ukuthi eBhodini Yosizo Lwezomthetho sengathi kusetshenziswa abantu abangavuthiwe kahle, abasaphuma esikoleni impela, kuthiwe abamele abantu. Uma usuthola, uye uzwe kuthiwa uma sebeya kobamela baze babacele bathi, “Vuma icala ukuze isigwebo sithambe.” E-Chartsworth waze waphahluka umshushisi wathi, “Sisebenzisana kahle impela neBhodi Yesizo Lwezomthetho ngoba yenza ukuthi abantu basheshise, bavume amacala.” Sabona ukuthi hheyi, kunzima!

Okunye esakuthola ukuthi sengathi iBhodi Yezosizo Lwezomthetho igxila kakhulu emacaleni obugebengu, hhayi emacaleni amademeshe. Singajabula ukuthi basebenze kuyo yonke into ngoba phela siye sithi senzela ukuthi abantu bakwazi ukuthola ezobulungiswa. Okunye futhi okudinga ukulungiswa ukuze abantu bathole ezobulungiswa yile ndaba yemingcele emidala yokuhlukaniswa kwezinkantolo. Le nto yenza ukuthi umuntu athi ehlala ngapha kodwa icala balithethe kwenye indawo ekude. Okusho ukuthi imingcele kuseyileya emidala yobandlululo, eyayihambelana nokuthi lezi zinkantolo ngezabamhlophe, leziya ngezabantu abamnyama noma amakhaladi. Sengathi leyo nto singayibuka ngeso elibukhali.

Nakulokhu kolimi, uma sikhuluma ngokuthola ubulungiswa, sengathi lungathathelwa izinyathelo udaba lolimi olukhulunywayo. Kwenza umuntu aphatheke kabi ukufica abantu bonke bengamaZulu enkantolo kodwa uthole ukuthi bayatolikelana, omunye ukhuluma olunye ulimi omunye atolike. Uye uzibuze uthi, “Ngoba laba bantu bonke bawuhlanga olulodwa, yini omunye atolike uma omunye ezokhuluma?”

Kodwa angidlule-ke ngize kwezokuhlunyeleliswa kwezimilo. Baba uNgconde, sengathi singayisheshisa leyo mbiko yekhomishini kaJali ukuze sibe nomnyakazo esiwenzayo khona sizothola imiphumela, ikakhulukazi ekuqedeni inkohlakalo.

Sengigcina-ke, okubalulekile lapha kwezokuhlunyeleliswa kwezimilo ukuthi singajabula ukuthi ojele abafundisa intsha lapha ejele nabo babekwe ezingeni lothisha, noma bahole njengothisha. Sezwa ukuthi eWestville kwatholakala imiphumela kamatikuletsheni eko-100% kanye namalengiso, kodwa uthole ukuthi lowo muntu ubekwa ezingeni likajele kanti uyabadlula abanye othisha abasezikoleni. Sengigcina, sengathi imali ingenyuka kuyo yonke le Minyango ngoba luselude ukhalo futhi ziseningi izinto ezisilele ngemuva eziqhamuka kuhulumeni wangaphambilini. Ngiyabonga, Sihlalo. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[… as the ANC we are saying it would be good if we could investigate the reasons behind the cruelty and murder in crimes committed these days. But we know that we are now sadly reaping the fruits of apartheid where people’s integrity was degraded. We would be grateful if the Crime Intelligence Unit could forewarn us of these timeously so that we are able to prevent them from happening. And it would also be proper to deal with the root cause of it all. I wish there could be another way of collecting unlawful firearms. We know that there was an amnesty and I wish that could be repeated, but with a slight change, for instance that if a person submits a gun, it should not be tested to see whether it was used somewhere. And drastic steps should be taken against those who refuse to submit theirs. And another thing is that there should be a reward for reporting crime. And people reporting criminal activities should not be labelled as sellouts, but rather as crime reporters. There must be a small reward for reporting those who have unlawful firearms.

The President in his state of the nation address this year stated very clearly that the public has a very important role to play in fighting crime. Police alone, without help from the public, cannot win the fight against crime. That is why we as the ANC are saying that structures like the community policing forums, CPFs, are important and they should be given more powers.

And in fact, it would be best if these CPFs are transformed into the community safety forums - the CSFs, so that they can be respected, and have the authority to act. The CSFs are structures that can join together many government departments like the SAPS, the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development, the Department of Correctional Services, the Department of Home Affairs as well as other departments.

In order for this to work, hon Deputy Minister of Safety and Security, we need an Act that will be passed by Parliament which will pave the way for the establishment of the CSFs. Once these are in place, they can be used to monitor the offenders from the time of their arrest, trial and after sentencing if they are found guilty, and even when they are released from jail, the same procedure can be followed so that the community can accept them.

As the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs, we visited KwaZulu-Natal in March this year where we found that the shortage of police vehicles is addressed adequately unlike in the past years. Police vehicles are now available at police stations. We however noted that the management of these vehicles is still a problem. Hon Ndosi, let me clarify this by relating a short story.

Somebody from Swayimani called me one day to say that there were people who were about to attack him because they suspected him of being a witch. I then called Wartburg police and informed them of the allegations and I told them that there was somebody who was saying he was on the verge of being attacked. I asked them to quickly rush to him and protect him in their capacity as police. The police officer who answered the phone said: “No, we do not have vehicles, there is only one here”. Fortunately, I called Commissioner Ngidi. And he then said I must call the Station Commissioner, Canday. Minutes after talking to Canday, the person who was about to be attacked called me and told me that seven police vehicles had arrived. This shows that the problem is with the way these vehicles are managed.

Let me come to the issue of the protection of witnesses. We felt bad – but I am aware that it was before your tenure, Deputy Minister – when the princess, the sister to the reigning Zulu King Zwelithini, and her household were attacked. We heard that the culprits are still at large because all the witnesses were killed before the trial. The case was then withdrawn because the witnesses were no longer available. That is why we say that the witness protection programme is important and must show effectiveness so that people don’t have to be afraid to come forward as witnesses.

Again, we visited places like Mbumbulu. We wish that rural areas could have formal police stations that could keep awaiting-trial prisoners. These stations should be near the magistrates’ courts, because in Mbumbulu we saw a prisoner coming from afar escorted by only one policeman on foot. We hope that can be corrected.

When it comes to justice, I would like to indicate that we have visited many provinces where we found that the Legal Aid Board seems to use inexperienced people who are fresh from school and then told to represent people. We also heard that, when the people they are representing appear before courts, these inexperienced attorneys ask them to plead guilty so as to get lenient sentences. In Chatsworth, a prosecutor blurted out: “Here we work very well with the Legal Aid Board because it causes people to be quick to plead guilty.” We realised that, yes, it is really tough!

The other thing that we found was that the Legal Aid Board seems to be concentrating mainly on criminal cases and not on civil cases. We would be grateful if they attended to everything since we are saying that we enable people to receive justice.

The other aspect that still needs to be corrected for people to receive justice is this issue of old boundaries which divide magistrates’ courts. This creates chaos because you find that a person lives in a certain area yet his case is heard in another place which is far away. And these are the same old apartheid boundaries, which were designed to be used by whites and others by black people or coloureds. Let us look at this thing with a critical eye.

We also need to look at the language issue. When we speak about receiving justice we request that the question of the language used should be looked at. It makes one feel bad to go into a court of law and find that all the people involved are Zulus, but you find that they interpret for one another; the one speaks a foreign language and the other interprets. You see this and you ask yourself what the need is for an interpretation since all people belong to the same ethnic group?

But let me move on and speak about Correctional Services. Hon Ngconde, we wish that the report of the Jali Commission could be speeded up so that we can get the results and fight corruption.

What is important here in Correctional Services is that we would be grateful if the correctional officers who act as teachers at correctional centres could be put on the same level as teachers, and be paid like teachers. We heard that Westville Correctional Centre got a 100% pass rate and distinctions in certain subjects. And yet you find that these people who work as teachers in these centres are put on the level of ordinary correctional officers whereas their performance exceeds that of some teachers at our schools.

In conclusion, I hope that budget allocations to all these departments will be increased because there is still a lot to be done resulting from the previous regime. Thank you, Chairperson.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Hon members, I just want to bring to your attention that there is a request that will not change what is taking place, but that sensitises hon members to the fact that the Ministers in our midst are expected to join the Presidency at a function where President Kabila will be hosted. I am just cautioning members that, as we proceed, we should take that into account.

Mr M A MZIZI: Chairperson, Ministers, Deputy Ministers and MECs, as high rates of crime continue to plague South Africa, it could be argued that the peace and security cluster is the most important of all the clusters. It is therefore fitting that all the individual departments are covered in a single debate today.

Angiqondile ukuthi eminye iMinyango ayibalulekile. [I don’t mean to say that other departments are not important.] [Interjections.]

The 2007-08 national Budget provides 35% more funds for crime prevention, including recruitment of 30 000 extra police officers, leading up to 2010. The SA Police Service cannot really complain about underfunding although every state department always wants more money. The SAPS has other more pressing problems, including improving the training of field personnel and investigating officers, and acquiring more and better equipped vehicles and radios.

The SAPS budget does provide for capital spending on a new police station but the IFP feels that more new stations are needed to increase the footprint of the police in the community. These new stations must be large enough to enable officers to work in proper conditions and not to be squashed on top of each other.

Maintenance of existing police stations leaves a lot to be desired. On more than one oversight visit members witnessed a lack of regular maintenance of facilities at police stations which were in a state of disrepair. The SAPS must take drastic action to improve the situation.

The same lack of maintenance can be seen at courts around the country. Inadequate facilities for hearings and other judicial processes are the order of the day. We desperately need a large number of new courts and improved facilities for the judicial process.

The continuing problems at Correctional Services give a cause for great concern. Some of these problems are not created by the department, such as the large number of awaiting-trial detainees, but the fact remains that prison overcrowding continues to plague the efforts of Correctional Services to rehabilitate offenders and to provide inmates with a humane and safe place of incarceration.

The delay in this new prison-building programme will have obvious consequences regarding overcrowding while special remissions of sentences can only ever be an interim step to alleviate the pressure.

The fact that children are still being detained in South African jails is deplorable and we urgently need places of safety where they can be helped. The IFP is very concerned that escapes from the so-called maximum security prison are continuing. Yes, the number has come down, but the fact that there are still escapes concerns us. We know that the department has in fact improved physical security in prisons; and the question must therefore be asked: If physical security is improving, what role is being played by corrupt prison officials in these escapes?

The original idea behind the establishment of the Independent Complaints Directorate, ICD, to act as a watchdog over the SAPS was a good idea, but the fact that it has to rely heavily on the police and is dependent on the police for co-operation in its investigations against police officers mean that its mandate has been compromised. The IFP proposes that we review the mandate of the ICD to give it more powers and to make it less dependent on the police. It will only become effective if it is truly independent. The last issue I want to touch on is border control. We know that the SAPS took over border control from the Defence Force. However, indications are that the police cannot cope with this function. The stream of illegal aliens crossing over the northern borders with impunity is testimony to this. South Africa needs more effective border control, especially along our borders with Zimbabwe and Mozambique. For that task, we need to deploy the National Defence Force in sufficient numbers to secure our country’s borders …

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Hon member, your time has expired.

Mr M A MZIZI: Kanti sesiyaphela njalo! I-IFP iyazesekela izabiwomali zayo yonke le Minyango ngoba siyayidinga imali. [Oh! Is it already expiring! The IFP supports all the Budget Votes for all these departments because we need money.]

Ms T MADIKANE (Northern Cape): Hon Chair, hon Ministers, hon Deputy Ministers, hon MEC, hon members of the National Council of Provinces, distinguished guests, it is an honour and privilege for me to participate in this debate today, but in the interest of time, I’m going to skip the issues that have already been raised.

This is happening at a time when preparations to launch the anticrime mass mobilisation campaign in the province are under way. This campaign is based on the premise that it’s only when all the different sectors in society are working in concert that we shall succeed in the fight against crime.

The levels of contact crime in the province are still unacceptably high and violent crimes are committed against the most vulnerable and defenceless people in our society, in other words the elderly, women and children. This is attributed, to a large extent, to substance abuse.

In most instances, people who are experiencing crime at a certain point forget to look at the broader picture. The fact that crime levels are still high does not necessarily mean that they are not declining. We therefore forge links with other departments as well as with civil society at large to embark on campaigns and interventions aimed at changing the attitudes and behaviour of people and creating an awareness of the dangers of substance abuse.

We have made great progress in relation to intergovernmental collaboration and integration. We make use of integrated development plan champions to engage and assist municipalities with the development of integrated community safety plans.

To date, we have formulated a working plan focusing, in the main, on the 22 crime weight stations in the province. This has been done in collaboration with the safety volunteers that are employed in line with the Expanded Public Works Programme guidelines, the police as well as the community development workers. This serves as the backbone of the Northern Cape anticrime mass mobilisation campaign.

Partnership policing is an essential element of sector policing. The utilisation of existing partnerships, as well as the establishment of new partnerships, especially at local government level, is vital. Community involvement in preventing and combating crime will also be enhanced by the rejuvenation of the community safety forums in the various municipalities in the province.

The quality of monitoring and oversight of the police continues to improve, following the implementation of the monitoring tool and police accountability meetings held with communities and facilitated by the departmental officials. In other words, when issues are picked up, for example when there is a breakdown in terms of relations, then accountability meetings are called to deal with those particular issues.

The recent restructuring of the SA Police Service had a profound effect on delivering support to station personnel. This process has improved our services to our clients, that is the community, as well in building capacity in the identified accounting stations.

The continued transformation of SAPS will be closely monitored in the province, especially since the setbacks that have been observed in this regard have resulted in unintended consequences regarding the restructuring process, as was mentioned by the chair of the portfolio committee in the National Assembly.

The community outreach programme that is championed by the provincial commissioner is being rolled out, particularly to areas with high crime levels. This is giving our communities another avenue to voice their concerns.

There is also a programme that is being rolled out in partnership with the Department of Education to all police stations in the province, that is the concept of having a junior station commissioner and a junior branch commander. This project is intended to enhance and strengthen the campaign against crime.

We are giving special attention to the youth and children in order to build resilience and resistance to crime. We need to mention that this is serving as a best practice as another province is also implementing it now.

Rape and domestic violence are still a problem for the Northern Cape. In a third of the rape cases the charges get withdrawn and this has a negative impact on the prevalence of this crime, as nothing seems to be deterring the offenders from repeating the crime. Hence there is currently research being done in order to identify the root causes of these tendencies.

In conclusion, I would like to thank those involved for the support that we get from all the justice, crime-prevention and security cluster departments, because we all recognise that it is only through working together, in collaboration, that we are able to make an impact and make some inroads to defeating crime. Also, a word of gratitude goes to the members of the select and portfolio committees for their vigilance and consistency in doing oversight on the work that government does. I thank you. [Applause.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Thank you, hon member. I think the hon member is exemplary; she only used half the time allocated to her.

Mr N D HENDRICKSE: Hon Chair, hon Ministers and Deputy Ministers, we celebrated democracy as a country, but it seems as if we have lost our soul. [Interjections.] By that I mean in all of what we are discussing today it is clear that there is sickness within our families. We need to get the family units together and we need to get the churches to help us to do that. Even in the prisons we need to go on a real drive to get the churches to do some work within the prisons, not just the odd ones that ask to come in there.

I agree that we must not be alarmists, but we must be realistic and pragmatic. Desperate times call for desperate measures. Somehow, I know that people would say no, but in some cases we need to bring in the Defence Force to flush out the gangsters. We applaud the Ministers’ initiatives to visit various European Union countries to quell investor fears and provide some insight on how government is planning to tackle the crime wave sweeping South Africa. We are happy to hear that there is better co-ordination in the cluster. We were worried but we are happy to hear what has been mentioned.

Whether South Africa is slipping into anarchy, however, is a matter of perception. The utterances and response measures put in place do not always give us much confidence that the government has the ability to deal with the crime wave.

Police complain that they arrest people today, and tomorrow they are let free and these are high-profile gangsters. Somehow, we need to look at that. The rail police programme operating in the Western Cape has led to a reduction in crime on trains, as visible patrolling has proved very effective. This project must continue and be expanded on all the routes. There needs to be zero tolerance. We need more trained police personnel at police stations that can deal with reported rape cases. At present, they are stationed at some stations but most of the stations do not have personnel with such skills.

The Department of Correctional Services continues to have major challenges, especially regarding corrupt warders. [Interjections.] Can you protect me, Chair? Whether it is prisons management to provision of antiretroviral drugs in prisons, the demonstrated lack of management and leadership has resulted in underperformance.

A recent report on the state of Pollsmoor Prison paints a bleak picture. The fact that 60 prisoners can share a cell, some sleeping on the floor and subjected to daily sexual abuse which often results in them contracting HIV/Aids is unacceptable. It is desirable that the first-time, awaiting- trial prisoners be kept separate from serving convicts. We heard and we are happy that that is going to happen.

In addition, there needs to be effective juvenile rehabilitation programmes. When the youth leave prison, they need to have decent chances of finding gainful employment. With the presence of HIV, it becomes a death sentence when you mix people up like that.

What is very disappointing is that the department knows about the conditions in Pollsmoor, but has done very little about it. Our prisons are not rehabilitative in nature, but actually make inmates more hardened and drug addicts. Thus far, only lip service has been paid to these critical issues. We need co-operatives that will involve prisoners in something whilst they are in prison; something that they can carry on with when they leave prison.

The department of justice has done very well in transforming the judiciary … The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Hon member, I am afraid your time has expired.

Mr N D HENDRICKSE: Thank you, Chair.

Mr N J MACK: Chairperson, let me join my chairperson in thanking the Ministers and Deputy Ministers for a job well done. Then I must take a cue from my comrade, Mr Sibiya, and say: From this podium, this afternoon, you will hear a few hallucinations but don’t worry, the vast majority of South Africans out there and the vast majority of South Africans in here support your Vote. [Interjections.] Thank you.

The need to build more facilities, as mentioned in the 2007 state of the nation address, was beyond doubt a reference to conditions in Correctional Services. The construction of new prisons has been identified in the state of the nation address as a core priority of government for 2007-08. It is the duty of the Department of Correctional Services to make sure that prisoners are provided with adequate opportunities inside prison to develop their skills and become future law-abiding citizens.

Over the years the ANC has championed the prisoners’ rights and needs under the cruel and inhumane sentencing regime of apartheid and they still do today. Those struggles resulted in the writing of the 1996 Constitution, which relates directly to this debate and guarantees the right to conditions of detention that are consistent with human dignity, including exercise and the provision, at state expense, of adequate accommodation and nutrition.

New facilities are needed to ensure that offenders are provided with their basic human rights and are treated with dignity. It must be noted that new facilities provide better opportunities and are adequate enough to facilitate rehabilitation programmes. They are designed to facilitate development and reintegration of inmates.

In these new facilities it is possible for learning to take place. Most of the old prisons are not designed to promote the greater rehabilitation process. [Interjections.] Yes, thank you, Minister. They were designed to inflict pain and punishment. The annual report of Correctional Services states that new facilities require good infrastructure to strengthen safe custody, humane conditions, adequate conditions for corrective services and care and development.

The process continues concerning public-private partnership in maintaining, upgrading and constructing prisons. Private sector-driven management and construction of facilities could hinder the rehabilitation process and a sense of accountability could be minimum, compared to state or public sector-driven processes.

It is possible for the department to reclaim the initiative of correctional facilities in accordance with the purpose of punishment and the responsibility and power of the state to punish. In this regard, the Department of Correctional Services should develop its own capacity for its own resources and management and devolution of functions from the Department of Public Works. There could be development of medium-term facilities and a management plan.

There is no doubt about the fact that the building of new facilities could substantially contribute to the reduction of overcrowding in order to promote rehabilitation goals. Another view is that the building of new facilities should be strategically located in new areas, in accordance with job creation. I must thank the Minister and Deputy Minister for visiting the Karoo, especially Beaufort West where I come from. It’s a rural presidential node and we are asking you to look favourably on the Karoo maybe to have a new facility there. This will assist in job creation.

There must be ongoing engagement in the process of building new-generation facilities. However, building more prisons is not a long-term solution to the problem of prison overcrowding, but it does contribute to accommodating those found guilty by the courts, so that they can undergo rehabilitation in order to change their behaviour.

It is possible to sufficiently explore various options to imprisonment in order to reduce the prison population. Courts should apply alternative sentencing options to cases of varying degrees of gravity. Some of these options are connected to the socioeconomic conditions of communities and opportunities for potential offenders and former offenders alike to live in dignity in order not to commit crime.

Courts must be accessible to the communities they serve. This includes the geographical location of the courts and specialised courts. Facilities need to be upgraded and be user-friendly to victims and the capacity needs to be looked into, in terms of human resources. Of significance is the need to retain skills and enhance the capacity of court officials to perform their duties. This also relates to payment of reasonable wages.

Tans het Korrektiewe Dienste ’n baie negatiewe beeld in die gemeenskap. Die media maak gebeure sensasioneel en daardeur word so baie positiewe aspekte van Korrektiewe Dienste buite rekening gelaat.

’n AGB LID: Vertel hulle!

Mnr N J MACK: Wanneer ’n enkele negatiewe gebeurtenis weergegee word asof dit die daaglikse gebruik binne Korrektiewe Dienste is, maak sulke omstandighede die lojale lede negatief en hulle voel dat dit wat hulle elke dag doen nie raakgesien word nie. Binne Korrektiewe Dienste vind daar gereeld veranderinge plaas. Die probleem is nie die veranderings as sulks nie, maar die wyse waarop dit bekend gemaak word.

Die proses van demilitarisering kan hier as voorbeeld gebruik word. Daar was weggedoen met militêre range om sodoende die burokratiese bestuurstyl van die verlede te vervang met ’n meer demokratiese bestuurstyl. Die fokus op veilige bewaking van oortreders is ook verskuif na meer klem op aanhoudingsomstandighede en rehabilitasie van oortreders. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Currently, Correctional Services has a very negative image in the community. The media sensationalises events and because of that so many positive aspects of Correctional Services are not taken into account.

An HON MEMBER: Tell them!

Mr N J MACK: When a single negative event is portrayed as if it is daily practice within Correctional Services, these circumstances make the loyal members despondent and they feel that the service they provide daily goes unnoticed. Many changes are regularly affected within Correctional Services. The problem is not the changes as such, but the manner in which it is communicated.

The process of demilitarisation can be used here as an example. Military ranks have been abolished and in this way the old bureaucratic management style of the past could be replaced with a more democratic management style. The focus on the safe custody of offenders has also shifted to that of placing far more emphasis on the conditions in detention and rehabilitation of offenders.]

Successful social reintegration will contribute to crime prevention and such crime prevention should entail visible policing. Indeed, visible policing entails visibility of the police on the streets and that requires significant resources at the level of police stations, foot patrols, vehicle patrols, horse patrols and motorbike or motorcycle patrols.

Law and order mechanisms such as policing the streets require ongoing training of the law-enforcement agencies. Police accountability systems are particularly relevant in the democratic South Africa, because of our historical practices of unaccountability and brutal policing. During the apartheid era the police were central to the enforcement of inequitable and racist laws and therefore had a poor relationship with most South African communities. The advent of democracy in South Africa saw the demise of apartheid institutions and ushered in democratic structures built around explicit values of good governance, transparency and accountability.

The challenge of effective policing accountability, however, is universal and confronts all democracies around the world. Given the complexities of police work, the difficult conditions in which police officers have to work and the huge powers they wield, it is necessary to have both internal and external accountability systems. Internal accountability mechanisms should form part of the day-to-day management and functioning of the police organisation, while external oversight bodies such as the ICD are critical for ensuring transparency and public legitimacy through ensuring that the police act in accordance with the social norms and legal frameworks.

The ICD is a specific civilian-run state structure independent of the SAPS that is responsible for investigating all cases of deaths as a result of police action or while in custody. Moreover, it may investigate any other allegation of criminality or misconduct against individual police officials brought to it by a member of the public or at its own discretion.

These are challenges that require to be dealt with in accordance with the available resources. In conclusion, there is no doubt that there really is a great need for more resources. I thank you. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Comrade Chairperson, hon Minister, hon Deputy Minister, MECs, hon Members of Parliament, in two days’ time the country will be commemorating an important day in our history, the 31st anniversary of June 16. This day marks the acceleration of our fight for freedom and it also brought the day of our liberation from racial oppression closer. I mention June 16 because of the important role that our youth played in an endeavour to transform our country from a society that was racially exclusive to one that aims to be representative of all its people.

Among our senior officers, we have many colonels and generals who are from the June 1976 generation. We hope that the present youth that joined the SA National Defence Force, SANDF, will emulate their example and lead a fully representative Defence Force in the future.

The Department of Defence has grappled with the challenges of transformation since 1994, especially concerning representivity among its uniformed staff. However, it is encouraging that we can today state that the issue of representivity is steadily but surely getting resolved. General representivity since 1994 has changed remarkably, and women make up 18% of the total strength of the SANDF.

The present gender composition of the Military Skills Development System, MSDS, personnel gives us some encouragement for the future. Of the total strength of 5 166 maritime systems division soldiers, 1 536 or 30% are women. It means we are beginning to break this stereotype of seeing the military careers as being for men only. If this trend continues, by 2009 we shall be close to achieving our target.

The challenge that we need to deal with in the MSDS, as far as representivity is concerned, is to attract and recruit a sizable number of young men and women. Representation is at present unacceptably low, at 6%. Our recruitment division is busy devising strategies to overcome this challenge.

There is also another problem where some irresponsible people, especially elderly people, would go around telling children that the Defence Force is for blacks only. Chairperson, let me take this opportunity to call on the South African youth, both black and white, to join the SANDF. This will ensure that the future of the SANDF does not become an all-black affair but reflects the demographics of the country at all levels.

The challenge that existed over the years with regard to middle management in the military, unfortunately, still exists. The majority of members in the ranks of lieutenant colonel and colonel are mostly white, and of course male. The Department of Defence hopes that, through the introduction of the member exit mechanism, MEM, and fast-tracking of targeted individuals within the department, it will eventually overcome this challenge. This mechanism which is voluntary, allows the department to exercise discretion to retain personnel who possess essential skills and experience.

The unfortunate part regarding Defence is that it is not like other departments. We cannot advertise a post of a colonel. A colonel must be promoted from a rank of lieutenant colonel. Therefore, we have to make sure that we have more black lieutenant colonels and more black warrant officers who will go up to take the posts and push those white colonels to the rank of generals. There is no other way to do it.

I am pleased to inform the House that two of the submarines that we procured for the SA Navy as part of the defence strategic package have been delivered and form part of our fleet at Simonstown dockyard. As we acquire this new equipment, we train young people to be in a position to operate it. To this end, a large number of black sailors have since been trained to address one of the complaints which was raised by somebody about the Navy. One of the developments coming out of this training is the ascendancy of Bubele Kitie Mhlana, who is popularly known as “Bravo” to the captaincy of the SAS Isandlwana. The process of qualifying as a naval commander of a frigate is long and arduous and demands both considerable intellectual growth and development. The command of a frigate is limited to those who truly excel. Bravo Mhlana has joined the exclusive club by passing the required test to become the first African commander of a frigate. We are proud with these strides that we are making in the transformation of the SANDF.

Whilst the SA Navy has concentrated largely on its capital renewal programmes during the past years, the renewal of its human resource component has not lagged far behind. Through the MSDS, the SA Navy has provided on average 600 young men and women per year the opportunity to complete the two-year Military Skills Development Programme. Nearly 60% of these youngsters were subsequently afforded the opportunity to migrate into the core career service system. Today, they are serving their country as proud members of the SA Navy. The remaining 40% is assisted to find relevant employment and they are also being incorporated into the SA Navy Reserves.

The MSDS has to some extent started to improve our representivity in the SANDF, especially among junior officers. This system has contributed immensely in improving the age profile of the regular force, particularly among the privates and noncommissioned officers.

You will realise that, recently, we have been recruiting at a rate of 4 000 soldiers per annum. You will also realise that we recruit from the ages between 19 and 22 years of age, because in the Defence Force we do not employ old people. In the Defence Force, once you are above 22 years, you are an elderly person and a senior person that must be protected by soldiers.

The SA Air Force has in the past few years embarked on improving representivity among its ranks by recruiting more trainers and trainees. This is producing good results from Langebaanweg Central Flying School.

In addition, we have devised a strategy to counter the exodus of our pilots and technicians by introducing an incentive scheme to retain them. This would be implemented from the beginning of the present financial year. The Ministry has engaged the CEO and President of the South African Airways to explore ways of encouraging SAA pilots to join the reserve force. The benefit of this is that SANDF will continue to enjoy the expertise of those who separate from SAA to join the South African Air Force. This is one of the biggest challenges. It is a pity that I do not have enough time.

One of the biggest challenges is that we are losing our pilots and technicians – they are stolen. The training of pilots and technicians is very expensive and it takes time. What the private sector does now …

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Minister, you can round up now.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF DEFENCE: What I would say to the committees is this: Help us to get more money. We are losing a lot of money by training these technicians and pilots and then we lose them. If we were to have more money, their incentives could be increased and in that way we can keep them in Defence. Thank you.

Dr F J VAN HEERDEN: Thank you, Chairperson. I will only have time to discuss a matter in connection with Correctional Services. The National Institute for Crime Prevention and Reintegration of Offenders, Nicro, made a controversial call the other day for inmates to be offered paid work in businesses set up within prisons. This is a proposal which can have far- reaching consequences. Executive director Solomons referred to it as a profit-orientated employment practice within prison, as part of the reintegration process.

Although Nicro intends at this stage to focus only on petty crimes and minor offences, it excludes offenders who commit serious crimes right now and, as they put it, leave the door wide open to pursue this later. Nicro has further suggested that prisoners be paid, not market-related wages but then, at least, a minimum wage, with part of it being paid to the prisoners’ families.

Nicro remarked that, when examining the number of offenders who return to crime, rehabilitation so far has not been very successful. In spite of the good intentions of this proposal, and we must accept that, it surely is not going to work. Criminals will be better off than the many law-abiding unemployed. Once used to receiving a wage in prison along with three meals a day, accommodation and recreation, however humble it may be, a prisoner who was engaged in such a programme as envisaged by Nicro once outside, again unemployed and often with only one meal a day, if any at all, with scanty accommodation, if any, will be tempted to go back to prison and become a habitual criminal.

The idea that Nicro has to extend the policy later to offenders who commit serious crimes as well, may just pass the test of no discrimination. If prisoner A has the right to be employed and receive remuneration, why not prisoner B or prisoner C? This will put an extra burden on courts to incorporate this so-called privilege to be employed and earn a wage in the sentencing procedure – in other words when punishment is handed down. For the unemployed that may not be punishment, but a relief and a reason to be lured back to prison.

The model, in spite of its good intentions, is not going to achieve its objectives; not to the extent that people will not be committing crime again, and it will not assist in crime prevention but will rather end up in crime encouragement. Other measures will have to be found by Nicro, as one of the partners of Correctional Services, otherwise the slogan “Crime does not pay” will become “Crime does pay.” I thank you.

Mr S SHICEKA: Chairperson, Ministers, Deputy Ministers, MECs, officials and colleagues … … ilungu elihloniphekile le-DA, uMnu Worth, yindoda elunge kakhulu ngokwakhe kodwa uyalahlekiswa, uyadukiswa. Bathi ngeSipedi: Ba a mo gapeletša … ukuthi makakhulume izinto okungafanele azikhulume. Ekomidini uyakuvuma konke esikushoyo, asixhase isabiwomali. Kodwa ekugcineni okwenzekayo ukuthi uma esesuka laphaya, ufike athole umyalelo kozakwabo abeseMkhandlwini Kazwelonke bese eguquka, ekhuluma into esingayazi thina lapha.

Uma sixoxa naye namanje sizothola ukuthi into ayikhulumayo ayilona iqiniso. Uthe uma ekhuluma lapha abantu ababubiki ubugebengu. Uye waqhubeka, yena ngomlomo wakhe, wathi kunokusalela emuva emacaleni asezinkantolo. Niyayithola-ke le nkulumo ukuthi iyaziphikisa? Kusho ukuthi naye akazizwa ukuthi uthini uma ekhuluma, ukhuluma ngoba usuke ebhalelwe phansi, engayibukanga inkulumo yakhe ukuthi iqonde ukuthini.

Uye waqhubeka wathi yena uthanda ukuthi iMinyango le isebenzise amaphoyisa azimele, kodwa uphinde wakhala futhi ngokuthi iMinyango isebenzisa imali eningi, isebenzisa amaphoyisa amaningi azimele. Ubethini kahle hle lo mnumzane? Asimuzwanga kahle. Bathi ngesiZulu uyahubhuza nje, ukhuluma into angazizwa naye ukuthi uthini. Wenza sengathi yindoda elele, okusho ukuthi uyaphupha.

Ngeke-ke ngikhulume ngalo mama waseNyakatho Kapa we-ID ngoba akahambi mihlangano yekomidi. Engahambi namihlangano yekomidi nje, akabuzi nakuMnu Fielding avela esifundazweni esisodwa naye, yena-ke ohamba imihlangano yekomidi ngokuzinikela futhi ohlale ekhona njalo. Akabuzi futhi, kwazise nokuthi ungumakhelwane wakhe ngoba bahlezi ndawonye ngokwezihlalo zabo.

Usuka azokhuluma izinto angazazi lapha, engezi nakithi ukuzocela athi: Cha, ngicela ningichushise lapha, ngiyalahleka. Akakhulumi nosihlalo wethu, akasho nokuthi, “Ngicela sihlalo uzongisiza lapha.” Naye uzama ukufeza izinjongo zomholi wakhe, ukuthi naye azohubhuza, akhulume izinto esingazizwa; uyinkinga-ke.

Maqondana nale ndoda ye-UIF, ngithi kuyo: Cha, baba, ngeke ngikwazi nokukuphendula. Wena uyindoda okufanele ngiyiyeke ngoba phela okukhulumile akudingi ukuphendulwa ngoba nawe uyazazi futhi uzizwile ukuthi awukhulumanga kahle, ushaye eceleni.

Engizokusho ukuthi uKhongolose usethathe igxathu lezinyathelo ezinqala nezikahle ngokuthi ahlanganise oNgqongqoshe neMinyango ngaphansi kwe- criminal justice cluster. Lokhu kuyabonisa ukuthi sizama ukuhlanganisa, silwe izimpi zokubuchitha ubugebengu, siyinto eyodwa, kusukela esigungwini seKhabhinethi kuya nakhona kwiziphathimandla, izifundazwe nasemazingeni ezindawo. Siyakujabulela lokho, sikubona kuyinto ekahle. Sithi nihamba ngezinyathelo ezikahle.

Okufanele nikulungise, noma kunjalo, yilokhu olulandelayo. Okokuqala, kuzodingeka ukuthi nakhe uhlelo oluzolandelwa lokuthi oNgqongqoshe bezifundazwe mabathathe umsebenzi wezepotiliki bawubeke emahlombe abo maqondana ne-criminal justice cluster, bangabi yinto nje encengwayo nencengelwayo bengenawo amandla okubabamba iqhaza laphaya ngoba kwezinye izifundazwe uthola ukuthi umuntu ongusihlalo yijaji, uma kuhlangene le Minyango. ONgqongqoshe bezifundazwe abanalo izwi elizwakalayo kahle. Maqondana nale nto, niyazi-ke nani ukuthi izifundazwe yizona eziphethe ezifundeni zazo.

Uma umuntu ekhuluma ngendaba yokuthi umnotho awuthuthuke, makutshalwe izimali, kusemqoka futhi ukuthi abuke ukuthi ngeke kube khona ukutshalwa kwezimali uma bengakwazi ukuthi babe namaqhinga okulwa nobugebengu. Ngaleyo ndlela masinikeze amandla ezifundazweni okuthi zikwazi ukuphatha i-criminal justice cluster.

Okunye okufanele kwenzeke ukuthi nasemazingeni ezindawo, amalungu amakomidi osodolobha abhekene nezokuphepha nawo mawanikezwe amandla okuphatha i- criminal justice cluster emazingeni ezindawo, ukwenzela ukuthi ubugebengu sikwazi ukulwa nabo, nokwenzela ukuthi kube khona isigcawu sokuxhumana ezinhlakeni zikahulumeni lapho oNgqonqgoshe bezifundazwe bezohlela khona imihlangano. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[… the hon member of the DA, hon Worth, is a very kind man but he is misled. In Sepedi they say, he is being forced to say things that he is not supposed to say. In the committee he agrees with everything that we say and he supports the budget. But what actually happens in the end is that when he leaves the committee, he gets orders from his colleagues in the National Assembly and he then changes his mind, and comes here to say things that we do not know.

If we can talk to him now we will discover that what he is saying is incorrect. When he spoke here, he said that people don’t report crime, yet he continued, of his own volition and said that there is a backlog of cases in courts. It is clear that this speech is self-contradictory. This means that he doesn’t understand himself when he is speaking. He simply reads a speech which has been written for him without understanding it.

Hon Worth also said that the departments should use private security firms, and in the same breath he complained about the spending spree of the departments on private security firms. What was this man really saying? We did not understand him. In isiZulu, when a person speaks as he did, we say he is talking in his sleep. He did not even understand himself. He did like a man who talks in his sleep, which means that he was dreaming.

The least said about the hon member of the ID from the Northern Cape, the better because she does not attend committee meetings. On top of not attending committee meetings, she doesn’t even ask hon Fielding, who is from the same province as she is, who attends committee meetings regularly, about the things discussed in committee meetings. She doesn’t ask anything from hon Fielding, and yet even inside the House she sits next to him.

The member comes here and she talks about things that she doesn’t know about. She doesn’t even come to us and asks us to help her where she is lost. She doesn’t bother to speak to our chairperson, and say: “Can the chairperson help me here please?” She too, is also trying to push the agenda of her leader; she talks in her sleep. She talks about things that we don’t even understand. That is a problem.

To the hon member of the UIF, I say: Hon member, I will not respond to your speech. You are a member who does not have to be responded to because what you said does not need any response. You also understood that you didn’t speak well and that you missed the point.

What I am going to say is that the African National Congress did a wonderful thing by grouping the departments and Ministries under the criminal justice cluster. This shows that we are grouping from Cabinet to Ministers, and provinces and local government to become one in fighting the war against crime. And we are happy about that; we see it as a very good thing. We say that you are on track.

There are certain areas though that you still need to address. Firstly, you need to come up with a programme that is going to be followed by the provincial ministers to shoulder the political work with regard to the criminal justice cluster. They need to play an active role, and not just be passive participants because in certain provinces you find that the chairperson of such clusters, if they have a meeting, is always a judge. The provincial ministers do not have a voice. With regard to these, you all are aware that provinces have powers in their areas of jurisdiction.

If we speak about growing the economy and investment, it is equally important to realise that there would be no investments if there are no ways to fight crime. In that way, let us give provinces powers to manage the criminal justice cluster.

The other thing that must happen is that in local government spheres, local committee members dealing with the issues of safety must also be given powers to chair the criminal justice cluster in local government. This would help in fighting crime, and it would also assist in establishing the communication forum in government structures where provincial ministers would arrange meetings.]

These must be the meetings where they meet with their local government counterparts, where report-backs and discussions take place. At a national level, there must be a meeting of Ministers in the criminal justice cluster where MECs for safety and security are able to give report-backs and their accounts in these meetings. In that way you will be able to combat crime in a co-ordinated and integrated way.

At the local level the community safety forums are structures that must be there to ensure that co-ordination is in place. These structures must ensure that a partnership is built, that there is a relationship based on trust, and that there’s confidence between the community and the police. At the same time, they must ensure that policing in general is attended to in terms of priorities that must be dealt with, and they must ensure that prevention programmes and combating of crime are dealt with so that we can break the backbone of crime. They must also help to ensure that citizens have access to the police. The police must at the same time be able to report crime levels and trends to these community safety forums, at that level.

One of the most fundamental things is that we must put more resources into the revamping of intelligence so that we can deal with these matters as and when we get the information.

Into esingayenzi ukulwa nobugebengu ngendlela eyesekelwe ekutholeni ulwazi. Siyokhumbula, mama, ukuthi ngesikhathi sobandlululo bekuthi uma kungena abashokobezi emphakathini, amaphoyisa asheshe azi ukuthi kukhona umshokobezi ongenile laphaya bese eya kobopha lowo mshokobezi. Lawo mandla okwenza lokho aseshonephi njengamanje? Masizame ukubuyela emuva, sizame ukukulungisa-ke lokho ukuze sikwazi ukulwa nobugebengu ngaleyo ndlela.

Kwezobulungiswa, maqondana nalezi zigcawu zokuphepha komphakathi, engifuna ukukusho ukuthi kusemqoka ukuthi uMnyango wezobulungiswa ukwazi ukuqinisekisa … (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[What we have not done yet is to fight crime on the basis of information. We will recall, Madam Chair, that during apartheid when the terrorists were amongst the community, the police would always be the first ones to get information and they would go and arrest those terrorists. Where has the ability to do that gone to? Let us look back, and try and address that to enable us to fight crime in that way.

In justice, with regard to these community safety forums, what I want to say is that it is important for the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development to make sure …]

… that these structures are playing a role in ensuring that people are educated and mobilised to understand why bail is granted; and not only that, they must be able to arrange meetings where the judiciary can go and report to the people. I know it may sound like something that some judges and magistrates might be adverse to, but I want to tell you something: I have met with judges in my province of Gauteng and they have agreed to that; I have met with the chief magistrate and he has agreed to do that. He has said that we must organise meetings where they can go to address the people and be exposed to the communities. It is not only for exposure, but they must also educate the people about the causes of crime, so that people can avoid that. It means getting involved in preventive measures, in relation to crime. Therefore we believe that these community safety forums will play such roles in mobilising our communities in that respect.

The other aspect regarding Correctional Services is that we believe these community safety forums can ensure that the rehabilitation programmes that are being conducted can be conducted even outside prison; and it’s not only rehabilitation that needs to be conducted but also debriefing and ensuring that these people are integrated into our society, become part of our society and are able to avoid repeating crime or what we call recidivism. These matters must be addressed and Home Affairs must play a role here as well. The community safety forums must ensure that people who are unable to get IDs are mobilised so that they can get hold of their IDs.

Sihlalo, ngifuna ukuyisonga manje inkulumo yami ngoba isikhathi siyabaleka, baba. Ngithi: Thina singuKhongolose siyasixhasa isabiwomali. Ngiyabonga kakhulu. [Ihlombe.] [Chairperson, I want to conclude my speech now because my time has expired. Chairperson, I say, we the African National Congress support this Budget Vote. Thank you very much. [Applause.]]

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Chairperson, hon Ministers, Deputy Ministers, MECs, hon members and guests

• if there are any still left at this time – in responding to the debate on behalf of the department, I want to say, it’s of course always difficult to respond adequately because so many issues are raised and one really wants to respond and do justice to everything that has been raised, but obviously one can’t.

However, what we have done is that we have taken note of the issues. As the Minister indicated at the hearings we attended the other day, should you at any stage in the future want us to come and address these issues we would be available to do so, or if there is a particular issue that you feel has not been addressed, please approach the Minister’s office or mine and we will try and answer those questions as best we can.

We also thank the committee very much for the hard work it does. Having been a committee chairperson in the National Assembly, I have always found that I would never envy the job of the committees in this House. One is struggling to deal with one committee on the one side and one department on the other side. I can only imagine what it must be like you try and deal with four, five or six departments. It is a huge job and we must thank you very much for what you are doing. If there is anything we ca do or any way that we can make your work easier, please just tell us. [Interjections.]

An HON MEMBER: Are you serious?

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Well, except for going home, of course. [Laughter.]

We are 13 years into our democracy and we must start looking at ourselves in terms of what we are achieving and not just focus on what is wrong. I know that it is easy to find problems everywhere. I mean, if we go into a court, there is going to be a window broken; if we go to a prison, there is going to be something that is missing; and if we go anywhere in government, in any kind of structure, even in the private sector, there will always be things that are wrong. Therefore we must start learning to deal with the whole issue; not an event, but a process.

I often listen to our discussions; the way we discuss things as if we are dealing with events. We discuss as if we are going to do something now that is going to be an event and is going to be there forever and so on. Of course, tomorrow it can change again.

There is one thing that we don’t do and that’s why we must be careful about being anecdotal all the time. Some of the anecdotes that people use are actually anecdotes that come from five years ago. These issues have been dealt with, but things tend become something like a myth and a legend.

Now, I am not saying we must not complain about issues but what we must start trying to learn is to analyse on a structural level. We should look at whether a door handle is broken in one court or whether every court has broken door handles, only then is there a structural problem. If a door handle is broken in one court, then it just happens to be a broken handle and not a major catastrophe - government has not fallen and there is no anarchy.

I think what we must start doing, and must start learning and teaching ourselves, is really to look at the structural problems. For example, someone mentioned a good example. I think it was Kgoshi. He said the gap between court managers and the people below them is too big. Now, that’s a structural problem, because what it is telling us is that we have a lot of chiefs but we don’t have the people that can do the work below the chiefs. That is the truth. We then have to look at how we restructure and what staff we actually employ at a certain level to deal with the issue. That is different from a situation you encounter when you go to a court and you find a rude, unprofessional clerk. If you find a rude and unprofessional clerk, that is exactly what that person is: a rude and unprofessional clerk, they are not a symptom of the system.

What I am trying to say is that, through interacting with each other, we will be able to establish, much easier, where the structural problems are and try to deal with them. Anywhere you go you will find that there are always lazy people. There are always lazy politicians and hard-working politicians, lazy judges and hard-working judges, lazy magistrates and hard- working magistrates. All over, in life, we get that situation. The issue is about trying to find those structural aspects.

The second issue is transformation and we must start learning. I listened to hon Sandra Botha yesterday again trying, in a convoluted way, to say that things have changed and that it is no longer affirmative action; it is now transformation. Transformation is such a simple thing: It means change. Transformation equals change and it does so in the context of the Constitution.

We negotiated the Constitution. We analysed our past and looked at where we wanted to go. We then, in broad principles, put that in the Constitution. In the Constitution we said that we have this horrible thing called apartheid – for which, today, you will find no one who voted for it. Those who voted for it are all dead and they don’t exist anymore! In any case, that thing was there.

I have heard that the hon Watson made some admissions in the week, which is good and I think it is important. [Laughter.] It helps in building our country. The solution was simply to take away this horrible thing called apartheid which not only excluded blacks and women, oppressed and dehumanised them, but the system was also rotten. It did not work well.

If one looks at the procedures and management of things that were followed under apartheid, one would find that they were archaic and so on. So, not only was there a moral problem, but there was also a general technical problem with it.

What we are saying regarding transformation is: You take all that, not just race and gender – though race and gender are important. You must then change the system to a system that is more in line with the one we described in the Constitution, which is caring, professional and provides services to people – that’s what transformation is, nothing more and nothing less.

It is not a figment of our imagination. Some people are now saying: I don’t see the word “transformation” in the Constitution. But the point of transformation – go and look at the definition – is to move from one state to another state, and that’s all it is. In South Africa there is a Constitution that guides us to do that.

If we in Justice engage in transformation that is not in line with the Constitution, then people must take us to court and we must get struck down in the courts. If the Minister of Defence does things like that, you bring him to court. So, there is a framework with in which we do that.

One of the clauses in the Constitution is the equality clause. I must tell you that there are many things I am very proud of in South Africa, and one of the things that I am very proud of is the equality clause. This clause is very unique, in constitutional terms. You will not find this equality clause in any other country in the world, because what this equality clause does is that it qualifies the usual equality clause which is basically your equal opportunity clause that states: “Everyone must have equal opportunity.” And that is what the equality clause usually is, but that would not work in South Africa. It would not work because that would be like running a 100-metre race with one person nicely dressed up wearing his running shoes, etc and the other person having one of those big leg balls tied to their legs. Would you then be able to say that we are all equal? If the Constitution says “Let’s run that race”, who is going to win?

So, what we did with the equality clause was to say that equality in South Africa is not just about equal opportunities. In South Africa, the definition of equality also means that certain corrective steps should be taken to level the playing field in order to move forward in equality. Now, people keep asking: How long will that take? Well, it will take as long as the Constitution stays the way it is; that’s how long it will take. [Laughter.]

The imperative is not just a figment of the ANC’s imagination, it is a clause in the Constitution which all the major parties voted for. I personally know that Colin Eglin from the DA, at that stage, was very proud of that clause and supported it fully. We now come along and say that if there is affirmative action and so on then that is unconstitutional and that harps on racism of the past. I say no, it’s in the Constitution. People keep on saying that it is being abused, as Ms Botha tried to tell us yesterday about an article she took from a newspaper which was completely false. [Interjections.] This is the problem with you people. You cannot take a good hiding. You must learn to know that when you are wrong then you are wrong. And in this case, you are wrong factually and in every single point.

However, I have to get back to the point that I was trying to make, that we must not, as a people, be embarrassed about affirmative action policies and so on. Where, of course, they are wrongly implemented, we must correct them, because there will be mistakes and there will be times when they are wrongly implemented. But regarding the vast majority of cases, I abhor the suggestion that the vast majority of affirmative cases in this country are illegal and bad for this country. It is wrong and the Constitution helps us to make sure that we bring that about in the country. Until the Constitution is changed, that is what will happen. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Madam Chair, I would like to thank the Chairperson of the Select Committee on Safety and Security, Kgoshi Mokoena and members of the committee for the continuous role they play in visiting provinces and also for being critical, in the sense that the oversight work they are rendering assists the police in doing their work.

May I also indicate to you, hon Worth, that on the point you raised around matters of statistics, you can’t talk about cases which are not reported. What do you expect the police to do? The police are not izangoma; they cannot throw bones and say: “There are these and those crimes that have been committed. We must go and investigate.” They can only have reported crimes on the basis of people coming forward. So, if you know of people who don’t report crime, assist them, as a member of this House, so that they can come forward and report their cases and then justice can be done.

Can I also indicate to you, hon Worth, that you talked about the matter of the ICD and the challenges faced by that organisation. We do agree with you fully. We need to capacitate the ICD and ensure that it is able to function adequately as per the legislation because, as we all know, the ICD was established through an Act of Parliament. We do acknowledge that there are a lot of weaknesses, but we are going to correct all those issues, and we are hoping that this is going to ensure that they are able to execute their functions in a better way.

Baba uMzizi, maqondana nendaba yabantu abangena lapha emingceleni othi wena kumele kubuyele amasosha kuyona, ubaba uLekota ushilo ukuthi umsebenzi wamasosha uyacaca: Kumele bavikele izwe. Abezokuvikela abasiwona amaphoyisa. Manje ngeke thina sibuyele emuva sithathe amasosha siwenze amaphoyisa. Asingayenzi into eyenziwa umbuso omdala, siphinde siyenze futhi ngoba siyayazi ukuthi ayifanele. Amasosha awaqaphe ngendlela efanele, amaphoyisa enze umsebenzi wawo.

Okwesibili engifuna ukukusho ukuthi, uyazi lungu elihloniphekile ukuthi khona manje sikhuphula inani lamaphoyisa, ngoba senzela khona ukuthi abe nekhono lokubamba abantu abangena lapha. Kuhle ilungu lingakhohlwa futhi ukuthi njengoba likhuluma ngalaba bafo baseMozambique nabaseZimbabwe, nathi basisiza ngezikhathi ezinzima. Manje asikwazi ukuthi sibaphathe ngendlela engafanele. Njengoba ecacisele uMnu uDe Lange, leli zwe lethu linemithetho noMthethosisekelo okumele siwulandele. Asikwazi ukuba nonya njengamaBhunu akudala. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[Hon Mzizi, with regard to illegal immigrants entering our country, and your solution that soldiers should be deployed at the border posts, hon Lekota mentioned that the primary task of the Defence Force is clear, and it is to protect the country. The Defence Force is not the Police Service. We therefore can not go back and allow soldiers to do the work of the police. Let us not do what was done by the apartheid regime, because we know that it is not supposed to happen. Let the soldiers do their work and the police should also do theirs.

Secondly, what I want to say is that you are aware, hon member, that we are in the process of strengthening the police force, so that it can have the capacity to deal with illegal immigrants. The hon member must also not forget that, as he was talking about the people from Mozambique and Zimbabwe respectively, they also helped us during our difficult times. Therefore, we cannot treat them in a brutal way. As the hon De Lange correctly mentioned, this country has laws and the Constitution that we must respect. We can’t treat them with the cruelty of the apartheid Boers.]

With regard to the matter raised by hon Moseki about the shortage of staff, it is advisable that if you go to any police station and you are told that they have a shortage of vehicles you should not accept that, because there is capacity which is being built in the Police Service. We are employing and training all the time, precisely to ensure that there is no shortage. If you find police officers or police stations that are not doing their job, you know exactly what to do – there is the ICD and provincial commissioners who must take up these matters. So, let’s not allow any police station not to be properly utilised.

With regard to police stations that do not have cells, I would like to say that we are trying our best to improve and refurbish our police stations in a way that they become accountable and are able to meet the requirements, in terms of human rights. If you look at the latest police stations that are being built, you would notice that they are all compliant. The older ones are still a problem, but we are not going to leave them like that. We have to ensure that our police stations are in a good condition and if they are not, we will correct that. So, we cannot allow that situation to continue. Part of our current budget addresses that issue.

To the hon member of the ID, I would say that the Constitution cannot allow the abuse of women to continue. Regarding the particular case mentioned, whether one is a policeman or policewoman, a judge or whatever, no one is above the law in this country. For women who are raped and abused by police or have been exposed to abuse by any police officer, we have the ICD and provincial commissioners. In that member’s province, they are even much better off because they have a woman who is very sensitive and who is prepared to fight unjust habits and behaviour against women.

I am just saying to the hon member she needs to make sure that for any abuse encountered, she doesn’t have to come to this podium, but she should act. Let’s act and fight some of these issues because it won’t help us to come to the podium and start talking about them. In order for us to advance the struggle of women in South Africa, we need to help those vulnerable women.

On the issue raised by the hon Ntuli around the insufficient fleet of police vehicles, I would say: Don’t allow any police officer to tell you that they don’t have enough cars. Currently, we are budgeting and we are spending more money on fleet management in our police stations. Not only that, we are also creating mechanisms of ensuring that those cars are being utilised effectively. We hope that everyone in this House will know this: They must not accept as an answer from any police officer the fact that they have no cars available, because it’s not true. Currently, we are at a ratio of four police officers to one car and our ideal is to have one car to two police officers in future. So, in short, we are addressing some of the issues you have raised and so far, we have addressed some of them. Technology is part of the process of making sure that we are better equipped and more efficient.

Hon Shiceka, matters of crime intelligence are matters that are being addressed. We are training and we have capacitated our intelligence people, but we can’t come here and say: “So far we have this number of crimes that have been reported.” That does not work. But in the communities we are doing that. Recently, we launched a helpline number to assist the communities in reporting crimes. So, we have various systems of ensuring that crime intelligence is indeed effective. However, it cannot be a public matter because if we go public on issues of intelligence, we will be defeating the very purpose of their strategies and what they do. Thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Chairperson … [Interjections.] Very quickly … very quickly. I am diabetic and I am getting hungrier now, so I need to go home. Chairperson, on a more serious note, I want to make a call. I have just learned that the union that operates in Correctional Services, Popcru, has its congress here in Cape Town. My call to them is very simple: You have done very well so far in making sure that your members do not join an illegal and wrong strike, so keep to that. Do not do go there like everybody else does. It is an essential services department. Do not ask your members to join a strike which they should not join. That is the first call I want to make. I am smiling as I make this call, to show that I am not in a fighting mood. When I am in a bad mood, I can really fight. This time I am merely making a call: Don’t do it because your members are going to be in trouble.

Secondly, the age of our offender population is worrying me: 26 to 27 years of age. It is worrying. It does mean that we have to do something. Education campaigns on “don’t do drugs” or “don’t do crime” are campaigns that should be broadened. Every parent and every member of the public should join in. The average age of our offender population is scary. They should be at university or college or starting new jobs and not be in prison. We have got parole boards that work and all I am saying to the parole boards is: Involve the communities. Involve the victims when you deal with the offenders who do want to get parole. To the offenders: Parole is not a right; it is a privilege. Do not do something silly because you want to be paroled; it is a privilege.

Something that worries me and that I should mention here, Kgoshi, is the issue of inmate-on-inmate assaults, whether they are awaiting-trials detainees or they are sentenced prisoners. The only thing I can say to them is: Stop it; just stop it. Inmate-on-members assaults: Just stop it. Regarding members-on-inmate assaults, which happened in Krugersdorp – if you do it, you will be out of this department. Stop it. Is there anything else? [Laughter.] Stop it. [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Chairperson, I will now finish the speech that I did not finish at the beginning. [Laughter.] There are three points from that speech that I want to make, because Kgoshi reminded me that he was particularly concerned about them.

First of all, you will recall that we had reported that, as a result of budget restrictions, we had reduced the flying hours for the air force. The question is: How does that happen? When we budget we even have to budget for the flying hours because the air force personnel must fly so many hours per year and so many hours for training. If, however, a matter were to arise that requires an obligation that the commander in chief orders us to do, and we did not have the cash available, we may delay or cut down the number of hours. In that way we can deal with an immediate issue ordered by the commander in chief. It reduces the number of hours for that period of time available to members of the air force. You have to move resources to the more urgent issues. Sometimes that money does come back. In the next budget we can make up for it, but the fact of the matter is that our budget has been kept low continuously and we have not had the number of hours for training and so on that should have been available.

We have raised the issue and we think we should be able, in the coming period, to get money and make up for the hours lost. The hours that are lost mean that, in a particular year, you were not able to train as many young pilots as you would have had, had you not cut down.

The second issue relates to the question of qualified audits. For a number of years now, the Auditor-General has pointed out weaknesses in the finances of the department. Finally, this year we had a special session where we could sit down and check what it was that resulted in this qualified audit, year after year. It really boiled down to two things: Firstly, it relates to the systems that we are using, especially since the time when the Defence Secretariat was re-established. The former defence force got rid of the Defence Secretariat in 1966 and all along, until we came into government, there was no secretariat and that is why the armed forces were a law unto themselves.

When the secretariat was established, a system was set in place by the secretariat, which did not correspond and therefore did not communicate with the system that the military had. People get used to habits and when they get used to those habits and you want to change them, they resist. You interfere with empires that had been set in their ways. When we had established that, the Ministry had to give a firm and final order that only one system – and we indicated which system – must now be brought into place so that the Defence Secretariat can have capacity to monitor what is happening in the military section, headed by the Chief of the SANDF. I reported earlier on in the budget speech in the NA that we are now in a position to say that those qualified audits would not repeat themselves in future.

Another issue is the one that relates to the recent court case in which one of the military trade unions took the department to court on the basis of challenging one of the regulations. The court had ordered us to grant trade union rights to the soldiers. They said that we may not take that away, because the right of trade union formation is given under the Constitution to all the workers. As the court had ordered, we had to give that right, but regulate it and put in place regulations to say to what extent you can enjoy that.

Among other things, in the regulations, we had to say that members of the SANDF may not go on strike. That is one of the things that the unions cannot do. They may also not affiliate with any federation that is not registered under the Defence Act. You can’t have a defence force that is politically allied. If you join Cosatu, for instance, which is allied to the ANC, you are politically allied. It is a disaster. We did that and we said that members of these unions have the - … right to peaceful and unarmed assembly, demonstration, picketing and petitioning and to present petitions in their private capacity, provided that such right shall not be exercised whilst in uniform, or when wearing any part of a uniform or displaying any insignia linked to the Defence Force, in a manner which indicates in any other way, employment in the Defence Force or the Department of Defence.

That refers to clause 8(a) but the unions did not challenge that. They challenged clause 8(b) which says that you can exercise that right, provided that such right shall not be exercised in respect of any matter concerning the employment relationship with the department. If you had a grievance against the department, you should not be allowed to exercise this right or any matter related to the department.

The court ruled that clause 8(a) is correct but that the Ministry and the department had gone beyond permissible limits. Members of the National Defence Force may demonstrate or picket, complain about their conditions in the Defence Force, as long as they are not wearing their uniforms or insignia of the National Defence Force. They may picket against us.

Clause 8(b) was expunged by the Constitutional Court but clause 8(a) was sustained. I think the long and short of it is that the grievance procedures that the Defence Force has must be augmented by the right of the members of the National Defence Force to, through their own voluntary association in a union, complain against us.

There is one final point that I would like to deal with. Earlier on this year I addressed a summit of the NCOP. I take the opportunity to remind all of you that I was the first Chairperson of the NCOP, together with Mr Ngcuka. Later on, I was deputised by the current Minister of Education, Mrs Naledi Pandor. We had the biggest fight raising the profile of this House – even now. We continue to argue vehemently that this is the crucial House in the running of the entire government in the country. [Applause.]

Many of you were present there when I delivered the statement. One of the things that I said was that I have been aware since we set up the NCOP that there are people in this country, and even in government, who regard this House as a dumping ground for useless people and so on. There are people who have an attitude like that towards this House. At that point I showed them that we actually changed this from the Senate into the NCOP. We did not want this House to be seen as the House of Lords, like in England, which was the House of a defeated class or the feudal lords of medieval England. We did not want a dead horse like that.

We wanted a House that is effective and alive with men and women capable of linking national government, provincial and local government. All three spheres of government come together in this House. I said: This is not the House for deadwood, it is not a dumping ground and anybody with an attitude like that has failed to understand the place of this House in our Constitution. If there is anybody that they regard as deadwood, they must fire them or withdraw them and bring people here who are effective.

As far as we are concerned, this is a vital cog in the running of government. Only today I was made aware of the fact that I was the one who said that this House has deadwood. [Laughter.] [Interjections.] I would not have said that. I put it on record: If I thought this House was the one with the deadwood, I would never pay attention to the House and come to this House. I would just walk away from it. Once again, I think this is a crucial House in the government of our country, given our Constitution as it stands now. I think that its potential is yet to be fully recognised. We must work hard to raise its profile at all times. I thank you. [Applause.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr T S Setona): Thank you, hon Minister. I wasn’t sure what my reaction should be because I was about to evoke one Rule that says: This is not relevant to the subject under discussion. Owing to the significance and the context in which this has risen, I think it is quite important to mention that that is how it was reported. I remember that you got a standing ovation from members of this House regarding everything you said. It is correct that you have clarified this. Let me thank the hon Ministers and hon Deputy Ministers, our special delegates, MECs and chairpersons of various committees from provinces, who have made an effort to provide leadership in this debate to enable the NCOP to develop its own vision and approach to oversight over departments that fall within the criminal justice system. We appreciate that and it will continue beyond this.

Debate concluded.

The Council adjourned at 19:15. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1. Membership of Committees

(a)     The following changes have been made to Joint Committees:
     Improvement of Quality of Life and Status of Children, Youth and
     Disabled Persons:


     Appointed:    Gore, Mr V C; Mdlalose, Ms M M; Rajbally, Ms S (Alt)

National Council of Provinces

The Chairperson

1. Message from National Assembly to National Council of Provinces in respect of Bill passed and transmitted

(1)     Bill passed by National Assembly on 14 June 2007 and
     transmitted for concurrence:


     (a)     Films and Publications Amendment Bill [B 27B – 2006]
          (National Assembly – sec 75)


     The Bill has been referred to the Select Committee on Social
     Services of the National Council of Provinces.


(2)     Bills passed by National Assembly on 14 June 2007 and
     transmitted for concurrence:


     (a)     Taxation Laws Amendment Bill [B 18 – 2007] (National
          Assembly – sec 77)


     (b)     Taxation Laws Second Amendment Bill [B 19 – 2007]
          (National Assembly – sec 75)
     (c)     Pension Funds Amendment Bill [B 11B – 2007 (Reprint)]
          (National Assembly – sec 75)
      The Bills have been referred to the Select Committee on Finance
      of the National Council of Provinces

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Minister of Communications

(a)     Protocol on Policy and Regulatory Framework for NEPAD (New
     Partnership for Africa’s Development) ICT Broadband Infrastructure
     for Eastern and Southern Africa, tabled in terms of section 231(2)
     of the Constitution, 1996.

(b)     Explanatory Memorandum to the Protocol on Policy and Regulatory
     Framework for NEPAD (New Partnership for Africa’s Development) ICT
     Broadband Infrastructure for Eastern and Southern Africa.

1. The Minister of Environmental Affairs and Tourism

(a)     Government Notice No 396 published in Government Gazette No
     29864 dated 4 May 2007: Intention to declare the Highveld Priority
     Area in terms of section 18(1) of the National Environmental
     Management: Air Quality Act, 2004 (Act No 39 of 2004).


(b)     Government Notice No 438 published in Government Gazette No
     29887 dated 11 May 2007: Change of name: Greater St Lucia Wetland
     Park and Greater St Lucia Wetland Park Authority, in terms of the
     World Heritage Convention Act, 1999 (Act No 49 of 1999).