WEDNESDAY, 18 JUNE 2008 __

                PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
                                ____

The House met at 15:05.

The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL REPLY

                              ECONOMICS
                              Cluster 3

MINISTERS:

Steps by economics cluster to address food and fuel prices and energy
                             challenges

1. Mr S J Njikelana (ANC) asked the Minister of Trade and Industry:

   Whether the economic cluster in the Government intends taking any steps to address (a) food prices, (b) fuel prices, and (c) energy challenges; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? NO1676E

The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: Madam Speaker, rising food prices are a major concern for government, and our view is that increasing agricultural production is one strategy to address this concern.

The economics cluster has a number of programmes that are focused on agriculture and agroprocessing, which include speeding up land and agrarian reform, and the provision of skills for emerging farmers. The work of the cluster focuses on improving the capacity of government to proactively improve our ability to address anticompetitive structures and behaviour, which will improve our ability to address domestic pricing.

Dealing with unfavourable trade conditions due to high levels of agricultural subsidies in developed countries is also a critical issue that is being addressed by government. However, this work, which is led by the Department of Trade and Industry, is reported on through the international relations, peace and security cluster.

It is important to note that short-term and long-term measures are required to deal with soaring food prices. Most of the economic cluster interventions are focused on the medium to long term, and social sector interventions would be critical to provide short-term relief for the poor.

With regard to fuel prices, the rapid increases reflect market forces in global supply and demand, and perceptions of supply and demand. The key focus of the economics cluster has been to ensure that South Africa’s energy infrastructure is sufficient to support economic growth.

In addition, the cluster has also, through a programme led by the Presidency, been developing a framework for economic regulators that will make an important contribution to the management of networks and regulated industries. On the production side, the production of synthetic fuel is crucial to cushion the country against supply insecurities.

The initial response of government to the electricity emergency was the establishment of the National Electricity Response Team, which was proposed in the economics cluster’s presentation to the Cabinet lekgotla in January

1. It was, however, decided that the National Electricity Response Team would best be co-ordinated by the Presidency directly while the cluster maintained its medium to long-term focus.

The cluster’s approach focuses first on the need to ensure that there is security of supply, which can be provided through policy certainty and the roll-out of additional energy infrastructure. This not only includes electricity generation and distribution, but also areas in liquid fuels such as increasing refining capacity, the provision of pipelines, port infrastructure, storage and distribution capacity.

It has also become clearer that alternative energy sources need to be developed. Key to this will be the roll-out of nuclear energy and the development of a local nuclear industry as an affordable and environmentally sound alternative, while the cluster also identified solar energy and other alternative and renewable sources such as biofuels that I referred to earlier.

Whilst looking for longer-term solutions to South Africa’s energy needs, it is necessary to find ways of reducing our current levels of energy demands without adversely affecting our economy. As part of a broader strategy to deal with the issue of energy supply, we need to promote the efficient use of energy.

Energy efficiency does not only mean efficiency in the final consumption of energy, but efficiency in its production and transportation as well. A programme to implement energy security is therefore a vital component of the cluster’s programme of action. Thank you. Mr S J NJIKELANA: Thank you, hon Minister. Your response has been quite encouraging, particularly the fact that you are working as a cluster and a team.

Minister, can you please go beyond our borders, and just share with us to what extent you have interacted with SA Development Community members, and also at the level of the African Union, in addressing the same issues. Thank you.

The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: Madam Speaker, I thank the hon member for the question.

The member would be aware that, for quite some time, among countries within the SADC region, there has been a process that has been underway, which was a process that was initiated based on projections that were made that if we did not do something collectively as SADC countries we would face an energy squeeze by 2007.

So, a programme was initiated where, collaboratively, countries are working in concert in order to make sure that, as a region, we can beef up our ability to generate more electricity. So, the Democratic Republic of the Congo is part of that team, along with Namibia, Angola, Botswana and South Africa. There is a process that is underway, whereby countries are each going to be contributing a percentage to the overall energy pool in the region. So, certainly, it is a matter on which we are collaborating with other countries.

I am not aware that we have had that kind of discussion in the African Union. It may be that I have missed it, but I am not aware of that. Of course, in the context of the current energy challenges that we have faced as a country, that is something that has had an impact on some of our neighbours. I think Mozambique, for example, in so far as it gets electricity for its own aluminium smelter from South Africa, has experienced an impact, but it is something that we are trying to manage in a collaborative way. Thank you very much.

Dr P J RABIE: Madam Speaker, hon Minister, and hon members, Cabinet recently took a decision not to reduce the taxes on fuel. Now, in the light of the escalation in prices of basic foodstuffs, is it possible to furnish the House with reasons why Cabinet decided not to reduce the taxes on fuel? Thank you, Minister.

The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: I think that the statement in this regard that was issued following the Cabinet meeting was a statement that said that the Minister of Finance as well as the Minister of Minerals and Energy should continue to consult on a much broader basis than just a question of whether you are going to cut fuel levies or taxes or not. But you continue to consult in order to come up with the best way in which we can ameliorate the impact of the fuel prices that have risen sharply. So, in a sense, Cabinet gave direction to these Ministers, and I think what Cabinet sought to make clear was that it hasn’t adopted a position around the reduction or elimination of fuel taxes, but that it is a matter on which, on an ongoing basis, the two Ministers need to interact and advise Cabinet.

Mr N SINGH: Madam Speaker, I was also going to ask a question on fuel taxes, but I will change my question.

The hon Minister spoke about the production of biofuels, which is the way many countries are going at the moment. I would like to know whether the economics cluster has applied its mind to the production of biofuels, given the fact that maize would be required in its production, and with food being required by the people of this country. What are the views of the economics cluster in this regard?

The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: Madam Speaker, we have been very clear as government on this matter. From the time that we communicated the completion of the work of developing a strategy for the biofuels industry, we made it very clear that maize would not be one of the inputs that would be used in the production of biofuels.

We took that position precisely because of our sensitivity to the issues around food security. Of course, there is continued contestation and perhaps lobbying around this issue but, as government, we are actually quite firm in saying that we are not going to use maize. We will use other sources that will also give us the same results but, certainly, maize is not one of them.

So, in a sense, the issues around the rising food prices do not impact that much on whether we proceed or not with our biofuels strategy. It’s a question of there being many things that you need to do when you undertake that exercise of producing biofuels. There are regulatory issues, there are licensing issues and also mechanisms that you put in place in order to ensure that production can actually take place.

Prof E S CHANG: Madam Speaker and hon Minister, there are energy challenges. Is the Minister aware of that? There are two elements in the electricity bill. The one is the monthly charges. It goes according to peak times. Even if you only switch on for one second in peak time, for the whole month, you have to pay based on peak time rates. So, that means that 84% to 87% or even over 90% of your electricity bill is taken up by your monthly charges.

The other aspect is the variable energy charges, which constitutes the user- end consumption. It is very little. It is perhaps less than 50% of what you pay on your electricity bill.

Particularly now, we are calling on everybody to try to save power. It doesn’t help us at all, because if you switch on for one second, you get charged peak rates, and you have to pay based on those rates for your monthly charges, which as I said before, constitute 83% to 87% of your bill. Even with what they call the power factor corrections, the majority of your bill will still be based on your peak time usage.

So, Minister, maybe you can talk to your colleague next to you, the Minister for Public Enterprises, to find out ways of helping us to pay this bill of monthly charges.

The other question I want to ask deals with fuel prices. Has government … [Interjections.] [Time expired.]

The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: I will try to answer to the best of my ability.

It seems to me that the question revolves around the issue of higher costs at peak times. What I really want to say is that part of what I think we’ve got to manage well is the issue of managing those peaks that obviously occur from time to time. For example, we know that during winter there is just a general increase in the demand for electricity. Therefore, we would encourage homes to have an energy mix so that at those times you could have the use of solar energy for things like heating water, for example.

It is those kinds of things that can help us to better manage those periods or seasons when there is that general trend towards an increase in use. I think that those things will therefore reduce what it costs us when those peaks do happen.

I hope that I have come close to addressing the concerns of the hon member.

  Strategies to enable subsistence farming to contribute to poverty
                     alleviation in rural areas

1. Mr J Bici (UDM) asked the Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs:

   Whether any strategies are in place to enable subsistence farming to contribute towards the alleviation of poverty and hunger in rural areas; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what are the relevant details? NO1670E

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR AGRICULTURE AND LAND AFFAIRS: Madam Speaker, I hope we are not repeating the same answers, basically, to the same question.

To be specific regarding the two departments that fall under the Minister, in terms of the Department of Agriculture, we are working, in general, in terms of the integrated food security strategy.

The Department of Agriculture – now this is one of those Schedule four functions – working through the provinces via the provincial departments for agriculture, provides support to vulnerable households to produce for their own sustenance by establishing backyards and/or community gardens. Perhaps the most prominent amongst these programmes is the household food production programme, in which case once-off grants for agricultural starter packs are being provided, as well as the required technological know-how.

It is very interesting that these starter packs through which we reach about 70 000 households in South Africa have different compositions as required. It might, for example, be the obvious vegetable production type of packs. It might be livestock production packs for poultry or goats, etc. It might also be infrastructure for fencing or for boreholes, water control components, for example, water harvesting, and training and capacity- building.

With regard to the Department of Land Affairs, we have the Settlement and Implement Support Strategy, which was officially launched by the Minister in February 2008. It attempts to better the support systems for land reform beneficiaries by ensuring that all relevant role-players are on board. It is, in most cases, a difficult act of co-ordination between the national and provincial governments and the municipalities.

I just want to say that in this year’s Budget of the hon Minister of Finance, the most exciting event was the increase in the budget for developing agricultural extension services. We hope to provide an extra package of support services to prospective farmers, and increase it from 3 000 in 2008 to 10 000 in 2011. The delivery capacity of extension officers are, mostly, on a provincial level. We need to have more national action, with at least 1 000 officers being provided for. This is one of the most important general things that we are doing.

It is true that these high food prices are, indeed, reaching very critical proportions and need a response - it can’t be business as usual – which is beyond what we are doing at the moment. There is much to talk about in the trade and financial circles of government about what must be done.

All that I can add from the agriculture and land perspective is that, at one stage, you can say you must produce more, and farmers must produce more. We must produce where nothing is being produced now.

At some stage, theoretically, you can, perhaps, reach the point where a country becomes self-sufficient in terms of food while it may have been competitive by importing in other ways. I think the danger is a global one that countries are, in an agricultural economic sense, starting to become balkanised. I think we must guard against that, and must put in place extra support systems. We are working very hard, together with Trade and Finance, on this. Thank you.

Mr J BICI: Madam Speaker and hon Deputy Minister, what steps have been taken to identify arable land lying fallow that may be cultivated to alleviate immediate poverty in rural areas and address long-term household food security threats facing the nation as the global food shortage and economic crisis deepens? I thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR AGRICULTURE AND LAND AFFAIRS: Madam Speaker, I must say that the land lying fallow in some areas is mostly in areas that have been neglected for many reasons over a long period in history.

We don’t have any specific programme addressing that problem, except that it is addressed generally over all the programmes of both Agriculture and Land Affairs. Let me give an example: The old so-called fallow land fell under the old agricultural assistance schemes or “bystandsrade”. That land, in most cases, has been loaned or leased to farmers, and when the leases lapse, those farms are immediately sold or given, through a lot of assistance, to the farmers who are presently farming there.

There are areas in South Africa – this has a lot to do with the history of this country – where the land may be lying fallow. It doesn’t help to run away from that problem. We’ll have to work with the provinces and get that land active, which can only be done by state-led development. In other words, if some area around Queenstown is lying fallow – it was formerly part of one of the old governments there – it must be identified and supported by giving the necessary agricultural assistance to the farmers who are living there or, on a fair basis, be distributed.

This is a very difficult task to perform because you must co-ordinate between all role-players concerned in that area, which might sometimes be quite a difficult task. It doesn’t help to ignore anyone, whether the municipality or other leaders, in that area.

We must be realistic. The challenges are still huge. Well, I can also add that we need - speaking to my side here – more assistance for Agriculture and Land Affairs. We’ve really got by with too little support up to now. The Ministry and the Treasury have now shown that, in their Budget, they are intending to support agriculture more and more. That is the intention of this government. I’m glad to be a part of it. I thank you.

Dr A I VAN NIEKERK: Speaker and hon Deputy Minister, could I say, in response to what you’ve said, that what we need in agriculture today is to do more and talk less.

Of the 4,5 million hectares of high potential agricultural land, one million hectares is basically utilised by subsistence farmers in South Africa. The production level is poor because of the high acidity of the soil and the absence of trace elements, basically, zinc, copper and molybdenum. It is relatively easy to rectify the shortcomings, and if this is done, it will increase the production of these subsistence farmers tenfold.

The research in this regard has been done and the solutions are ready to be applied. What actions does the Department of Agriculture contemplate taking to assist these subsistence farmers in this regard to increase the food production and to help them to survive in these difficult conditions?

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR AGRICULTURE AND LAND AFFAIRS: Madam Speaker, the acidity problem in areas such as the former Transkei is quite well known. In fact, South Africa has the scientific knowledge available through soil research by the very good Agricultural Research Council, which is still doing very good work.

We have the knowledge and lime through which we can change the acidity levels and the molybdenum levels in the soil. If I could say I will do it tomorrow … [Interjections.] Hon Botha, dis baie maklik om te sê. [Hon Botha, thats very easy to say.] But it takes a lot of organisation, and that is what we are doing now.

The Minister and the former Minister have changed a lot regarding the co- operation between the national government and the provinces. It is very good at the moment because it is unfortunately just a fact of life that we have provinces and municipalities. That is what democracy is about, and we have to work with it.

It is not always so easy to control. For example, KwaZulu-Natal is doing excellently - I don’t want to comment on the provinces - and school gardens are doing very well in the Free State. The Western Cape is producing a lot of nice wine. I don’t know much about wine. [Laughter.] Why drink wine if you can have water? [Interjections.] I am really not a great taster.

We know about the acidity problem. The problem is that you just don’t take a lorry full of lime and go and tip it down near Queenstown or wherever you go. It is the whole process of management and of controlling the situation by looking at what is the situation on the ground and getting people involved. You can’t do agricultural support systems from top to bottom. You can’t do it. It must grow.

That is the reason why I personally believe the present strong agricultural commercial sector must and is doing a lot because they have the knowledge and experience and we must move together. In South Africa, there is a lot being done together to change it around.

Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order. Rule 113 (3) says that the reply to a question is limited to three minutes, but if the Presiding Officer is of the opinion that the matter is of sufficient importance, an additional two minutes can be granted. I cannot believe that what the hon Deputy Minister is saying is of such importance.

The SPEAKER: Mr Ellis, take your seat and let the Deputy Minister finish his point.

Mr M J ELLIS: He’s been remarkably long-winded this afternoon, Madam Speaker.

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR AGRICULTURE AND LAND AFFAIRS: I’ve been remarkably long, you’ll kindly tell me. No, I was looking for a good joke on which to end this, but unfortunately, you are not funny at all today.

Madam, the point is that there is a lot of goodwill in South Africa in agriculture at present. It’s a question of being organised. Thank you. [Interjections.] [Time expired.]

Mr S ABRAM: Madam Speaker, arising from the initial response of the hon Deputy Minister, we wish to know what monitoring mechanisms are in place regarding successes on the ground, and whether the hon Minister will be in a position to provide some statistical information on the number of starter pack beneficiaries and the number of established backyard and community gardens.

Regarding the Settlement and Implement Support Strategy, since its launch four months ago, can the hon Deputy Minister indicate how the roll-out is progressing on the ground, especially in view of the ever-increasing input costs? One must remember that diesel and fertilizer prices alone have, in the past 12 months, escalated by almost another 100%. This places a strain on poor households to get their gardens going because, without fertilizer, nothing grows.

Since the hon Deputy Minister had digressed in his response, may I say that we can, in South Africa, get another 50 000 hectares of land under irrigation, provided the hon Minister of Finance is willing to increase the agricultural budget from the current less than half a percent of the total national Budget to closer to 10%. We can roll-out and develop the rural areas; we can address the alleviation of rural poverty; we can become a net exporter of food, instead of being a current net importer. If we are willing to make massive funds available to roll-out infrastructure … [Time expired.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR AGRICULTURE AND LAND AFFAIRS: Madam Speaker, if specific numbers are required, I will gladly request, through you, Madam Speaker, that the question be asked.

I should perhaps just say that, eventually, we must get the numbers from the provinces. At the moment, the information I have is that about 70 000 households are being reached through these programmes. But, for example, there are a number of programmes under the household food production programme which are implemented at provincial level, for example, in the Eastern Cape, Mpumalanga, North West, etc.

The programme provides agricultural production packs and if you ask specifically for these numbers, we must obtain them through the provinces. At the moment, I would say about 10%, according to my information, of the Comprehensive Agricultural Support Programme and the equitable share of provinces is used for these support systems. Thank you.

Mr M W SIBUYANA: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I would like to find out from the Deputy Minister what plans the department has to resuscitate the once prosperous agricultural projects, namely projects in Bushbuck Ridge such as the Dingledale and Dumfries projects, or projects in Giyani which drew water from the Letaba Dam.

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR AGRICULTURE AND LAND AFFAIRS: Thank you, hon member, through you, Madam Speaker.

Resuscitation of previous projects is a constant concern, especially in Land Affairs where land reform projects take place or where there is land restitution. I must say that we can do more but we have to realise that there is budget fragmentation.

In most of the places, like Taung for example or Giyani, you must repair the irrigation systems, you must build the canal, you must get old irrigation systems which were put down there, most of which are not working, you must sometimes have the funds to do this. For example, just to get some life into Taung will cost us a couple of million rand. I think this must be addressed in a special request from the Minister.

If specific information about these projects is required, I will ask for a written question on that. Thank you.

Programme to train and create awareness among Public Service managers
              regarding employment of disabled persons

1. Mr M J G Mzondeki (ANC) asked the Minister of Labour:

   (1) Whether his department has any programme aimed at training and creating awareness among public service managers on the employment of disabled persons as per the code of good practice on the employment of disabled persons; if so, what were the successes achieved by the programme; if not, (2) whether there is a plan to embark on such a programme; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? NO1675E

The MINISTER OF LABOUR: Madam Speaker, I was informed that there was going to be a change but, anyway, I’m fine.

Noxa ndingenguye uMphathiswa weSebe leeNkonzo zasebuRhulumenteni noLawulo, asisebenzi ngabo kuphela, sisebenza ngabo bonke nje abaqeshi jikelele kweli loMzantsi Afrika. Rhoqo ke, nyaka ngamnye, soloko sisiba neendibano zokufundisa abantu ngalo mthetho, i-Employment Equity Act, ukuze bazi ngokupheleleyo ngawo. Oku ke sikwenza sigqale kubo bonke abaqeshi, ngakumbi abo babandakanyekayo ngokomthetho lo, kwakunye neli Sebe leeNkonzo zasebuRhulumenteni noLawulo.

Sizama ke ukunqanda nokuphelisa nya, sisuse neengcambu ucalu-calulo phaya emisebenzini, ngakumbi ngokubhekiselele kubantu abangoomama nakubantu abakhubazekileyo, ukuze umthetho lo usetyenziswe ngendlela eyiyo. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)

[As much as I am not the Minister for the Public Service and Administration, they are not the only people we deal with; we work with all the employers here in South Africa. We always have annual meetings where we educate people about this legislation, the Employment Equity Act, so that they should know more about it. We do this exercise aiming for all employers at large, especially those who are directly affected by this legislation, and also the Department of Public Service and Administration.

We want to prevent and totally stop discrimination in the workplace, especially when it comes to women and people with disabilities, so that the legislation can be implemented in the correct manner.]

Yes, there are plans to continue creating awareness and educating employers regarding their legislative duties as designated employers under the Employment Equity Act. In order to strengthen the implementation mechanisms of the Act, it is important to note that this year my department will again be embarking on employment equity awareness campaigns in July and August throughout all the provinces.

This time the campaigns will focus on raising awareness and educating employers on various employment equity tools, is the Codes of Good Practice on the employment of people with disabilities, the management of HIV and Aids in the workplace, including the technical assistance guidelines that accompany these codes.

In addition to the above initiative, my department has, in collaboration with the Department of Public Service and Administration, conducted an awareness-raising workshop. The workshop focused mainly on educating the Public Service on the various Codes of Good Practice, the employment of people with disabilities, the management of HIV and Aids in the workplace, including other legislated duties of designated employers such as consultation, preparation, implementation of an Employment Equity Plan and submission of employment equity reports that are due on 1 October 2008.

Ndiyabulela, Somlomo. [I thank you, Speaker.]

Mr M J G MZONDEKI: Thank you, Minister. I’m very happy to realise that there is a working relationship between you and the Department of Public Service and Administration. You would note, Minister, that many of the departments are still struggling to reach their minimum target of 2%. One of the reasons for that is that people are not even able to define what a disabled person is.

As an example, one official from a department was asked why they only employed one disabled person and what the disability of that person was. He said that the person looked very short. If that person understood that there is what we call the Code of Good Practice, if he understood the concept of reasonable accommodation, he would know that although it’s a short person, he could be reasonably accommodated. But thank you very much for the efforts between yourselves and the Department of Public Service and Administration. Thank you.

UMPHATHISWA WEZEMISEBENZI: Somlomo, mandikhe noko ndimumathe elinqatha linesihlunu ndilinikwa ngokaMzondeki. Kumnandi kaloku ukunconywa; utsho ukhukhumale. Ndivumele ke nam ndikhukhumale ndiphume amadlu, njengenkwenkwe yakuQoboqobo.

Ndiyayibulela into yokuba lo kaMzondeki azi ukuba kukho abantu, ngeli xesha uThixo asabanike imilenze emibini, abanye asabaphe amehlo, abanye abangekatyhobeki kwiingozi zeemoto, abangaqondiyo ukubaluleka kwabantu abakhubazekileyo kuba umntu ngalo mzuzu esengumntu opheleleyo. Kanti ubukhulu becala, lo uzibona ephelele ngalo mzuzu, kuthi kanti ingqondo yona ayiphelelanga. Yingozi kakhulu ke loo nto.

Sonke kweli loMzantsi Afrika kufuneka sazi ukuba laphela ixesha lokuthabatha abantu abakhubazekileyo bafakwe ngasemva emakhitshini. Nabo ngabantu, bamele ukuze bathabathe inxaxheba ekuhlumeni kwemo yoqoqosho kwilizwe loMzantsi Afrika. Enkosi mntakaMzondeki. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)

[The MINISTER OF LABOUR: Speaker, I appreciate the compliments that I get from hon Mzondeki. I feel great when I get compliments. Allow me to be proud and feel great as a boy who was born in Keiskammahoek.

I am grateful that hon Mzondeki appreciates the fact that there are people who, while the Lord has given them two legs, have eyesight, and they have not been involved in car accidents, do not understand how important people who are living with disabilities are, just because they are not disabled at this present moment. Yet, you will find in most cases that the brains of the ones who regard themselves as able now, are not functioning well. That is a big problem.

All of us in South Africa must know that the days that people with disabilities were hidden in backyard rooms are gone. They are also human beings; they are also entitled to take part in the economic growth of their country, South Africa. Thank you, hon Mzondeki.]

Dr U ROOPNARAIN: Hon Minister, apart from the training, which is purely theoretical; how do we ensure that recreational facilities like crèches, canteen facilities, parking facilities, are made more accessible to people with disabilities? Also, one of the findings from Disabilities in the Workplace shows that most people with disabilities are relegated to lower paying jobs. How do we ensure their movement up the corporate ladder? Thank you very much.

The MINISTER OF LABOUR: That’s a very important question that you are asking hon member. I hope employers are listening to the trend of your questioning because what it says is that we must make sure that workplaces are accessible to people with disabilities. We must make sure that they are able to park their cars, and after parking their cars they are able to access their offices.

But, thirdly, you are saying it’s important that we know that some of the people with disabilities are highly qualified and there is absolutely no reason why they should be in low paying jobs. They should be in jobs that in many instances are better than that of Mdladlana himself sitting here. There is no school where you train as a Minister of Labour, my sister. So, anyone can become a Minister of Labour. I must never pride myself and think that I’m the permanent Minister of Labour. That’s nonsense.

Therefore, it is very important that we all understand that people with disabilities also need to participate in the economy and they must also get everything other people are getting. According to Chapter Two of the Bill of Rights in our Constitution, there should be no discrimination on many grounds and one of those grounds is disability. Thank you very much for your question hon member.

Mr S J F MARAIS: Minister, we’ve heard that employment of the disabled, especially within the Public Service Sector is appalling and in most cases doesn’t meet the targets. Also the conditions of safety in the workplace itself more often than not do not meet the minimum standards. What strategies has your department implemented to prevent unfair discrimination against them in the future, to consult with disability representative bodies and to enforce the constitutional rights of this economically very able group of people? Thank you.

UMPHATHISWA WEZEMISEBENZI: Njengokuba bendikhe ndatsho ke ndathi andinguye uMphathiswa weSebe lezaBasebenzi bakaRhulumente. Kodwa, okubalulekileyo kukuba azi umhlekazi lo ukuba siyazi, asiyikhanyeli loo nto, amasebe amaninzi karhulumente awabanganakho ukuba awuphumelelise ummiselo ebebewubekelwe. Ambalwa kakhulu athe aphumelela.

UMphathiswa ke uye wasixelela kwiKhabhinethi Lekgotla ukuthi bonke abaPhathiswa kufuneka babhinqe omfutshane baqinisekise ukuthi amasebe abo ayabaqesha abantu abakhubazekileyo. Ngenxa yomsebenzi wethu ke kuye kunyanzeleke ngelinye ixesha ukuba singene kwezi ofisi zikarhulumente. Sesinee-ofisi ezifana nezamapolisa esesizivalile. – uMphathiswa weSebe leMicimbi yaseKhaya akakho apha, sesine-ofisi esiyivalileyo kwela sebe lakhe. – Nale yeSebe lezaBasenzi phaya eNelspruit kwaye kwanyanzeleka ukuba ndithi mayivalwe ngoba asinakho ukuthi sivumele abasebenzi bakarhulumente basebenze kwiimeko ezinkenenkene. UMphathiswa lo uphambi kwam weMisebenzi kaRhulumente silwa yonke imihla ngaloo nto.

Owam umsebenzi kukukhusela amalungelo abasebenzi, nokuba baqeshwe ngurhulumente, nokuba baqeshwe nguthathatha phaya esitalatweni; ngumsebenzi wam lowo. Andikhathelele kuthandwa ke ngaloo nto. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraphs follows.)

[The MINISTER OF LABOUR: I have told you that I am not the Minister for the Public Service and Administration. But, the important thing is that the hon gentleman should know that we know that and we are not denying that many of the government departments did not succeed in meeting their target. Those that have succeeded in doing so are very few.

The Minister told us in the Cabinet lekgotla that all the Ministers must pull up their socks and see to it that their departments do employ people with disabilities. Due to our work we are sometimes forced to go to these government offices. We have closed some offices like police offices. The Minister of Home Affairs is not here, we have closed an office in her department. And I was forced to close the office of the Department of Public Works in Nelspruit, because we cannot allow government employees to work under bad conditions. The Minister of Public Works - who is in front of me - and I fight about that every day.

My job is to protect the rights of employees, whether they are government employees or employed by somebody in the street; that is my job and I do not have to be liked for that.]

      Maintenance work done to buildings leased in Richtersveld

1. Mr Z Kotwal (ANC) asked the Minister for Public Enterprises:

   Whether any maintenance work has been done by a certain company (name furnished) to the buildings it leased in the Richtersveld in terms of the compact between the Richtersveld community and the Government; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what are the relevant details? NO1672E

The MINISTER FOR PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: The question relates to the settlement between the Richtersveld community and the company Alexkor. Alexkor has been maintaining the premises referred to, ie gardens, structural maintenance, electrical maintenance, painting, replacement of broken equipment and windows, and clearing of various infrastructures such as drains. Approximately R3,3 million has been spent on this since the signing of the deed of settlement.

This is part of a process of transferring these assets to the community and also forming a properly proclaimed township for Alexander Bay. It is a process which is currently being undertaken with the province and with the assistance of the sustainable communities programme to make sure we fulfil our obligations in the deed of settlement to establish quite a significant property and housing base for the property companies established by the community.

Mnu Z KOTWAL: Ngiyabonga, Somlomo. Ngqongqoshe, Qabane Erwin, ngiyabonga ngempendulo yakho. Kuyasijabulisa ukuthi uhulumeni kaKhongolose uyazigcina izethembiso zakhe. Siyacela ukuthi nibaphathe kahle laba bantu base- Richtersveld ngoba bathathelwa umhlaba wabo ngumbuso wobandlululo. Siyabonga futhi siyajabula ukuthi uKhongolose ubuyisele umhlaba kubanikazi. Ngiyabonga. [Ihlombe.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[Mr Z KOTWAL: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Minister, Comrade Erwin, thank you for your response. We are grateful that the ANC-led government is keeping its promises. We are asking that you should treat these people of the Richtersveld very well because they were deprived of their land during the apartheid era. We are thankful and grateful that the ANC has returned the land to its rightful owners. Thank you. [Applause.]]

The MINISTER FOR PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: I support what the hon member has said and I think this is quite an historic occasion. This particular question with regard to the houses and other properties in Alexander Bay is going back to the history of this and it is actually very interesting indeed and quite symbolic.

Those of you who have been to Alexander Bay will know that at one point it was divided into two separate parts, the so-called “binnekamp” and the so- called “buitekamp” and people were allowed behind the fences of the “binnekamp” where the mining took place. You went in for 6 months at a time and were not allowed out. So, there is tremendous symbolism in breaking down these barriers and rebuilding the township and proclaiming it from a mining town to a proper municipality.

We sincerely hope that this will form the basis of economic activity in the Richtersveld. As you know, the other components of this settlement also include the transfer of agricultural assets, maricultural assets to the community and we are also implementing the pooled and shared joint venture which is a partnership between the community and Alexkor for the actual mining of the diamonds. It’s a very complex settlement but I believe its going very well. My own personal respect for that community is immense and I think they’ve managed this process very well indeed.

Dr S M VAN DYK: What criteria, policy and procedures are employed by your department when granting contracts and how do you determine the creditability of those entities? Thank you.

The MINISTER FOR PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: That’s a pretty vague question. I’m not sure what it refers to. Is it contracts in the department, in which event the department has had an unenviable record of unqualified audits continuously or it is contracts with relation to Alexkor, which would be covered by the PFMA, and to the best of our knowledge and from the financial statements of Alexkor, there have been no major problems with that.

If you are referring to the complex system of subcontracting for the diamonds, that is a process that is being conducted through a range of measures. Currently there are very few of the subcontractors operating because the mining operation is regarded as a care and maintenance activity.

The SPEAKER: In the absence of any more follow-up questions, we move on to Question 135 from the hon Opperman to the Minister of Public Works.

The MINISTER FOR PUBLIC ENTERPRISES: Sorry, Madam Speaker. On a point of information, I have a Budget Vote in the NCOP. If you would excuse me, we’ve made arrangements that the rest of my answers would be given in writing to those people that ask questions.

The SPEAKER: We have one more question, but if you have a Budget Vote in the NCOP, I think you have to go and deliver it, hon Minister.

Study to determine amount of land transferred under previous land reform legislation

1. Mr S E Opperman (DA) asked the Minister of Public Works:

   Whether, with regard to the Expropriation Bill [B16—2008], she has conducted a study to determine the amount of land that was transferred under the previous land reform legislation; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? NO1690E

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. Before I answer this question, I would like to thank the chairperson of the portfolio committee and members who have suspended their public hearings on the very matter of the Expropriation Bill that is under public hearing as we speak, to come to this House, because one of the hon members who asked the question happened to be part of that sitting. So, I would like to thank all members for that.

With respect to the question that has been asked: We did not think it was necessary to conduct any study because all of us know how much land has been transferred thus far as a result of the Restitution Act, as well as other land-related legislation, since 1994. That question, in part, was answered by the Deputy Minister of Agriculture when replying to the question.

But, with regard to the Expropriation Act of 1975, one cannot have data, as we speak, of how much land we have actually expropriated as a result of that Act for public purposes such as roads, rail and other related matters, which have been for state requirements. So, in terms of the question, I think I have answered it, but one would then wait for the follow-up questions from hon Opperman with regard to this question. Thank you.

Mr S E OPPERMAN: Thank you, Speaker and Minister. I think it is not just about the land that is available; it is also about the effectiveness of the programmes that we are dealing with. As it is one of the objectives of the Bill to provide government with the tool to achieve its commitment to land reform, Madam Minister, are you aware that 50% of projects started under the Land Reform legislation are a failure because of a lack of post- settlement support? If there is a lack of capacity we are setting people up for failure. I want to know from the Minister: How will the new legislation change the situation, and has the government carried out an economic assessment of the draft Expropriation Bill? I thank you.

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: Hon Speaker and hon member, I think the issues we are trying to answer, while related, are actually not specific to the legislation. With the Expropriation Act, its function has always been, in the past and in the present, to assist the state to compulsorily acquire land for public purposes for one of the things that I have mentioned earlier such as road construction, rail and for other construction of state or parastatal assets.

Land reform is one of those aspects that have been introduced as a result of our Constitution in respect of public interest, particularly for dealing with issues of social justice and equity in our society. So, it is a necessary instrument that we would have required as government whether you had a need for land reform or not, because it is an instrument that you require in order to compulsorily acquire land for development purposes.

Therefore, the issues referred to by hon Opperman around the support to land reform beneficiaries is a matter that indeed, as a state, we have deliberated on. That is why the Department of Agriculture has brought to Cabinet some proposals on what may need to be done to give post-settlement support.

As you would know, the way in which we implemented the programme from 1994 was such that land acquisition and land reform were driven from the Land Affairs Department, and post-settlement support had to be done through the Department of Agriculture particularly at a provincial level as well as other support mechanisms by municipalities. That has not always worked very well and that is why the Department of Agriculture has reviewed that process on how we could make it better.

So, in respect of support to land reform beneficiaries, I am confident that the proposals brought by the Minister of Agriculture and the department will assist us to ensure that the land that people have received can actually be put to productive use. However, it is important in the context of South Africa’s history that we should not juxtapose the issue of social justice and productive use of that land as though those are actually opposed. Both of them are necessary.

If we want to deal with the legacy of our past and the land question in South Africa, there is no way we can say we will postpone land delivery to those who were historically disenfranchised in order to maintain the economic viability of land to those who have it. I think that would be wrong. We cannot therefore postpone the problem forever. We must deal with the contradictions, as they may seem, in order to achieve both objectives. Thank you very much.

Mr L D MADUMA: Thank you very much, hon Speaker. Minister, I must thank you for responding quite eloquently around the role that will be played by this Expropriation Bill when it comes to its enactment, given the challenges of land reform in the country.

Minister, as the current Expropriation Act, Act 63 of 1975, predates the Constitution and is thus inconsistent with the Constitution, how is this Bill consistent with the spirit and provisions of the Constitution, especially with regard to equality in section 9 and property in section 25, just to mention a few? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF PUBLIC WORKS: Thank very much, hon Maduma, for your question.

I would first like to deal with the issue of the general application of this Act. One of the objectives of the Act is actually to bring the current legislation in line with the Constitution. If you look at section 25 of our Constitution, where it deals with property, it actually indicates, if one were to read subsection (1), that:

No one may be deprived of property except in terms of law of general application and no law may permit arbitrary deprivation of property.

Subsection 2 says:

Property may be expropriated only in terms of law of general application –

    a) for a public purpose or in the public interest; and
    b) subject to compensation, the amount of which and the time and
       manner of payment of which have either been agreed to by those
       affected or decided or approved by a court.

If you look at the current Bill that is under discussion, on the one hand we are seeking to align the various expropriation instruments that are there not just in the national sphere of government but also in the provincial and municipal spheres, as governed by the various ordinances. So, we are trying to bring about an alignment because there is inconsistency in the manner in which such expropriation is done currently in the various spheres of government.

Secondly, to ensure that we deal with issues of equity where we tamper with the rights of individuals, we have actually, through that legislation, indicated procedures that must be followed when such expropriation must be taken into consideration.

Thirdly, we also indicated how the Minister, as an executing authority, will actually determine compensation and how, where such negotiations have failed, the Minister having taken such decision, the courts may also be approached by those who are not satisfied to ensure that justice is being done.

In my view, we have dealt with the issue of equity and we have also dealt with issues that relate to fair compensation in the manner in which this legislation, if passed, will actually be implemented. Thank you very much.

Position regarding continuation with or changes to government’s inflation targeting policy

1. Mr H J Bekker (IFP) asked the Minister of Finance:

   (1) Whether he will continue with the Government’s policy of containing inflation by (a) setting inflation targets and (b) using the interest rate to achieve this goal; if so, what are the relevant details; if not,

   (2) whether he will announce any change in policy; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? NO1697E The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Madam Speaker, the question, if I understand correctly, relates to inflation targeting and whether we will pursue this policy. It is important to remind ourselves that inflation is a sustained rise in price levels and the result of too much money chasing too few goods and services. And when that happens, it impacts very directly on people on fixed incomes. So, when food prices rise then clearly working families are seriously out of pocket. They must make the adjustment.

In pursuance of sections 2 to 4 of the Constitution, which set out the primary objectives of the Reserve Bank, we have opted to adhere to what is presently best practice available, and that is an environment of inflation targeting to create certainty and predictability in respect of what the Reserve Bank would do.

The target that we have in South Africa of between 3% and 6% is relatively generous. In respect of the application of the monetary policy, interest rates are one of those measures that Reserve Banks around the world use in the exercise of that power.

The Constitution is also abundantly clear about the fact that in pursuit of the object of price stability, the Reserve Bank must be able to pursue its work without fear or favour. So, the independence of the Reserve Bank over the instruments it uses is clear. The constitutional imperative, the target, is set by government, however. In the absence of any available evidence to the contrary we will pursue that approach. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr N SINGH: Madam Speaker, I am glad to be called Bekker today. I just want to follow up on the hon Minister’s answer.

Hon Minister, given that today we learnt of another price increase for electricity and also given that the price increase is about 27% this year, inflation is – you are quite correct – a sustained increase in price levels. But many of these factors are extraneous factors - fuel price increases, food price increases and now electricity price increases too. We do value the independence of the Reserve Bank. But given this, shouldn’t government be relooking at the target that it has set because, by and large, consumers seem to be spending less and less because of high interest rates, and we are asking if government is ever going to consider revisiting the target. There has to be a target but also a revisiting of that target. Thank you.

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Madam Speaker, the hon Minister of Public Enterprises spoke about the Richtersveld. There is a wonderful little dorp, a hamlet in the Richtersveld, called Lekkersing - the question being a combined question from hon Bekker and hon Singh. The question comes from Bekker-Singh and, therefore, it is a new part of the lexicon.

Let us just revisit what happens when there are these constant price increases. The earnings of families are reduced and they buy less. And if you say that price instability does not matter to working people, I think that you are making a fundamental mistake. Price rises remove the earnings of people. It’s tantamount to a reduction in wages earned. And if, every time you are under pressure, you take the target and throw it overboard then you are saying to working families and those with a fixed income ``the quality of life that you are living does not matter to us’’.

If you look at the trend around the world at present, there are many, many countries that have inflation targets. Most countries that have inflation targets are going through exactly the same trials and tribulations that we are. One country, namely Turkey, has set a new target. But Turkey lives in a different world. For 20 years Turkey had an inflation rate of between 83% and 87%, averaging 85%. South Africans have never adjusted to that and most people in the world haven’t. The only country that has stayed closer to its inflation target happens to be Canada.

Now, you know, we have described inflation targeting as an anchor for monetary policy. If every time you are in a storm you cut loose your anchor, you have no control over how you steer the ship, when you steer the ship and what you do when you get that ship into safer waters. It is for this reason that the present target of between 3% and 6% must be maintained. The Reserve Bank and members of the portfolio committee know this, because the Governor has been there twice a year to explain to the committee that it doesn’t even favour the escape clause and prefers that we continue to struggle, because as a country that enjoys what we now know to be the least worst of all systems of monetary policy, namely inflation targeting, we will have to return to a band of inflation that is more suitable to the rest of the world.

But price stability is an object worth striving for, because it means that there is just more certainty for families, trade unions, investors and employers. And that remains an object of what the Constitution asks us to do in clause 217. Thank you.

Mr K A MOLOTO: Madam Speaker, Minister, there is a pervasive view in certain quarters that South African banks are inflation hawks, who focus narrowly on speedily bringing the Consumer Price Index, CPIX, back within the inflation target range without giving due consideration to economic output.

Minister, is this view supported by any evidence? If we are not inflation hawks, what is the reasonable timeframe in which we can bring CPIX within the target range?

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Madam Speaker, this is indeed an important question. I am not competent to answer that. What do you call those people who know about birds; ornithologists or something? I can’t choose between hawks and doves. I don’t know these things. I am not a tutor.

But, if you look at the recent economic history of this country, between the years 2003-07 we were within the inflation bands. During those years we had the lowest interest rates that this country has known since the early 1970s. That must say something about the method.

Before inflation targeting the Reserve Bank, in its own documents, described its monetary policy as erratic. So, it looked at a bit of inflation; it looked at exchange rates; it looked at a bit of money supply and then somehow took a decision. Many of us were indeed members of this House in 1998 when interest rates increased to above 20%, when there were increases of 8% in one year. If that is an environment the people would like to return to, with so easily attached epithets - hawk, dove, neoliberal, this that and the other - it is fairly easily managing this in a world of price changes, but when the object is to improve the quality of life of people, it is lot more complex.

I am saying that the evidence between 2003-07 speaks for itself and speaks for the tried and tested method which I am saying is the least worst that the world now knows, namely inflation targeting. Thank you.

Mr S J F MARAIS: Madam Speaker, Minister, the DA subscribes to an inflation target policy, especially if it can assist in lowering the inflation expectations, decreasing the money supply and consumer spending.

However, interest rate hikes and, amongst others, increases in the administered prices, increases in salaries of government employees of 10,5% and the further increase today of 13,3% in Eskom tariffs, will have major second-round inflationary effects. How do these increases align with the Asgisa objective and meet an inflation target of between 3% and 6%? What measures do you propose to stabilise the economy under these circumstances? Lastly, could you please explain to the ordinary citizens where to from here?

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Madam Speaker, I think the first issue that we have to deal with is that it is not correct in a high inflation environment to say to workers that they have to bear the brunt. So, there will always have to be moderation, but I think in dealing with those issues there also has to be a moderation of expectations.

Regarding the issue of second-round effects, I think it has two parts. The first is that too many South Africans live their lives on credit. Our savings ratios are low, and therefore, we live for today from tomorrow’s income. This means that we are different from countries that have grown sustainably at higher rates, because they have always had higher savings rates. Unless we can deal with that problem, I think that we will snuff out the prospects for the future.

The second issue is that credit is very readily available, notwithstanding very significant changes arising from the introduction of the National Credit Regulatory Act, which curtails the ease with which credit is obtained. There is still the notion that actually we don’t have to borrow because plastic is the order of the day. I think that is part of dealing with it and I would invite the hon Marais and all members of the House to study the inflation report in some detail. Similarly, they should look at the Monetary Policy Committee Announcement because it contains what they are looking for.

It is very clear that the Reserve Bank does not hope to bring down the oil price or food prices by increasing interest rates, as it did last week, by 50 basis points. You have to take those exogenous factors out of the equation and then try to understand what the rest is all about. You then need to try to understand what the rest is all about.

Take the case of a loaf of bread on the shelf at R7,50 more or less. Only 36% of that is now occasioned by the wheat price, and 39% of it is occasioned by the fuel price. So, it is converted fuel and we have no control over the oil price. We frequently feel that we might be eating a combination of wheat flour and yeast but it is actually something else.

So, you find all of that detail available and I think that we must give the Reserve Bank credit for keeping a firm hold on this and not see it as an attempt to impose difficulties. Inflation is the rate of change. The broad sense is that we have lived through some very stormy waters over the last while. We tried to sail through it but the rate of change is unlikely to be as high in the future.

The question I think the jury is still out on this - is whether the prices will remain at a new and higher plateau. It is more likely for that to happen and for prices to reduce but the rate of change is likely to be less strong than what we have seen over the past period. Thank you.

Dr R RABINOWITZ: Madam Speaker, hon Minister, I am expressing the viewpoint of a think-tank in this question and it relates to the printing of money. Does government or has government in the past 10 years printed money and put it into circulation in the economy and how often is that done? And if it is done on a regular basis, has that had an effect on inflation?

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: I am not quite sure what lies behind the question, because frequently when people speak of government printing money, they are talking about monetising the deficit. And this is clearly not something that we have done.

We have a system of primary dealership. When we are issuing debt, we issue it on auction every Tuesday morning. Our debt, even our locally issued debt, is held widely across the world. So, we have never used the printing press to finance the deficit, thank heavens, because once you embark on that road, there is no recovery from it.

There is a country not far from here that shall remain nameless where apart from the budget that is announced and appropriated by Parliament, there are also a whole series of extra-budgetary expenditures undertaken by that government and for that money is printed. I forget the name of the country, but when I last checked inflation there was rising at 42% per hour and it doesn’t rest, it runs 24/7 to give you 1 100 000% a year. But that’s what happens. Once you start on that slippery slope, I think it is very hard to recover from it.

The oversight of our Parliament here. is very strong, our Constitution is very strong, our legislative framework through the Public Finance Management Act is very strong. And I think that this Parliament should pat itself on its collective back, because it has not allowed the situation to get out of control. I think that’s what quality oversight and democracy ought to deliver. Thank you.

          CONGRATULATIONS TO MEMBERS WHO COMPLETED STUDIES

The SPEAKER: Hon members, before I leave the Chair, I wish to take this opportunity to congratulate the hon members that graduated yesterday in the context of the Leadership Development Programme. [Applause.] As we speak, 53 members completed their studies in Leadership Communication, 19 members completed Information Knowledge Management, 10 members completed Public and Parliamentary Leadership, 24 members completed Advanced Diploma in Economic Policy and seven members completed their B.Comm Hons.

I would like to highlight, in particular, the fact - just to prove the point of the relevance of the training - that an hon member who spoke on behalf of the graduates yesterday, hon Tuelo Gibson Anthony illustrated how he used the research module to do something in his constituency which led to a community whose land claim had been neglected, because of an absence of information in fact being given that land back on 8 February 2008. [Applause.] This is a case that he has been working on since 2005 when it reached his constituency office. That shows how relevant the training is. Now we have more than a one hundred members who have been better empowered. And we must also thank and congratulate the Deputy Speaker who has led this particular area of work. [Applause.]

Action taken regarding state of disrepair in public rail infrastructure

1. Mr S B Farrow (DA) asked the Minister of Transport:

   (1) Whether he or his department acted on warnings over the past 14 years (details furnished) that the public rail infrastructure was in an advanced state of disrepair; if not, why not; if so, (a) on what basis did he arrive at the conclusion, (b) why was funding delayed while infrastructure went into a state of disrepair and (c) who was responsible for (i) the delay in accessing funding and (ii) allocating it;

   (2) whether any action has been taken against officials failing to allocate funding to the rail infrastructure over the past 14 years; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details;

   (3) whether he has acted on the views expressed by the Chief Executive Officer (name furnished) of the SA Rail Commuter Corporation; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details;

   (4) whether he intends resigning as a result of the state of the rail infrastructure; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what steps will be taken? NO1692E

The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY (On behalf of the Minister of Transport): Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. Government is on record as having stated that passenger rail had suffered under three decades of severe underinvestment.

In January 2005, the Department of Transport authorised the due diligence examination of the three passenger rail entities in preparation for their consolidation into the South African Rail Commuter Corporation. The due diligence report gave a very clear indication of the severe backlogs the passenger rail sector is facing due to the underinvestment referred to.

In December 2006, Cabinet approved the National Rail Passenger Plan which provides the long-term strategic direction for the passenger rail industry in South Africa. In February, the recapitalisation of the passenger rail service was made a key action plan of the economic cluster of government and later that year government approved the turnaround strategy for passenger rail, which was accompanied by significantly increased investment in the system.

The sum of R25 billion is earmarked for passenger rail between 2007-08 and 2010-11, covering a capital grant, an operational subsidy, funding preparations in the passenger rail system for the 2010 FIFA World Cup and some funding for Shosholoza Meyl.

These are government’s concrete actions and responses aimed at reversing the backlogs in the passenger rail system. And, therefore, Madam Deputy Speaker, in relation to Question 4, the Minister of Transport is not going to be resigning over this. Firstly, because he has addressed quite concretely, as I have tried to show, the challenges in so far as rail is concerned but also, because the Minister of Transport has not been the Minister of Transport for a period of over 14 years. Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker.

Mr S B FARROW: Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker. This question, I might say, was prompted by some research that I did and I am very glad that the Minister has agreed with some of the aspects of that research; the fact that there were three decades of underexpenditure.

This timeline that I have here on this research document indicates clearly that if you go to every annual report, it says that every year, from either the Chief Executive Officer or even the chairman of that board, there is a desperate need to go and invest in this particular sector. Now this has not happened until 2006. So, my question which I put there was really to actually look at that in light of that type of research, as opposed to what you have revealed to us today. But even more importantly, when the CEO reported to us this year from SARCC, he indicated to us that the dilemma they are finding themselves in is even worse than the dilemma that Eskom found itself in. Hence the question as to whether in fact the Minister would resign, because as far as I am concerned the buck has to stop somewhere.

Now, I also know that the Minister was wearing two hats, one in Public Enterprises prior to coming to Transport or maybe other Ministers before him. But then I must ask you the question, sir: Do you then take it in the same light as the Eskom Minister there, Mr Erwin, who was earlier collectively blamed or singly blamed? We have a crisis where we now have R35 billion to spend before 2010 and in the meanwhile we have lost over R100 million’s worth of passenger fares in the process, with a dilapidated rail service, rolling stock which is over 40 years old, and a system which is failing in terms of both safety and security. Thank you, Chairperson.

The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: Thank you, Deputy Speaker, I think that what I tried to show through the response was that over the life of this particular government - a government that has been in office from 2004 and whose term will expire in 2009 - there have been concrete interventions that have been undertaken in order to address the challenges in so far as passenger rail is concerned.

I think that if I go back to the original question it is whether we are going to be taking or have taken action against officials who have not been allocating moneys for purposes of investment in passenger rail. I think that what we have to look at is whether what we have put in place by way of allocating resources, having plans and strategies in order to address these challenges is going to give us the results we want.

What we have put on the table is a three-phased programme, the first phase of which is aligned to the 2010 Soccer World Cup, but it is a programme that goes on until 2021. Therefore, when you ask for a Minister to resign on the basis of putting in place programmes and ensuring that they have the necessary allocations, I do not think that that is actually reasonable.

If we look at what has happened that has made a big difference between 2004 and now generally in economic terms, at the beginning of the term of this government the rate or level of investment as a percentage of gross domestic product in this economy was 15%. Today the rate of investment stands at about 21% and that’s because government and the public sector, more broadly, have actually taken the view that there is a need to increase the investment by government, by parastatals, to contribute to the overall increase in the rate of investment in the economy.

I think that this is a qualitative change that has taken place in this economy over the last few years. I think government needs to be commended for that and in particular that this Minister has actually put in place very clear plans to address the weaknesses that arose from the underinvestment in passenger rail. Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. Mr J P CRONIN: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. The hon Farrow’s original written question is misdirected, I think, in two respects. First of all, as the Minister has been responding to the question he has specifically said that this Minister, together with his Cabinet colleagues, had led a very bold programme for major rail recapitalisation.

In the second place, the question is somewhat misdirected because it focuses on infrastructure and the problem is not particularly on the infrastructure side of things, it is in terms of rolling stock, where the rolling stock in passenger rail is typically 40 years old and more.

I am glad, in a way, that other Ministers are present and our Minister is not answering. I think the challenge going forward is to make sure that with this R25 billion planned expenditure on rail recapitalisation it is imperative that we make sure that we co-ordinate this recapitalisation with the respective policies of other departments. We have seen some rail infrastructure development and rail capitalisation development, which is very important indeed. It is a rail programme whose name I have forgotten, like the hon Minister of Finance forgot the name of the neighbouring country, but it begins with a “G” in this case.

It is very important that we align our rail projects with our industrial policy programmes. The Minister of Finance has said they have been worried about the oil price, but surely we can do something about the amount of oil we import and invest in rail infrastructure and rail capitalisation, as an important contribution to that. Would the Minister agree?

The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: Madam Deputy Speaker, I would agree, and in a sense, this is something that we have already identified as part of our Industrial Policy Framework as well as the Industrial Policy Action Plan. We have identified that we could reduce the import element of the major infrastructure investment that is taking place in the economy. We should promote those industries that can provide the capital goods or the capital inputs that are necessary as part of that public infrastructure and investment programme.

We can promote those industries and these are capacities that we have in the country already. At a point when the country was investing quite heavily in infrastructure these were vibrant industries and these are capacities that still exist. That industry at the moment employs about 218 000 people. So, you are talking about some significant capacities that are there and we are looking at creating more employment by ensuring that we align with the infrastructure investment that is taking place, but we can also address other important priorities. Our skills development programmes can also benefit from ensuring that we promote those industries. Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker.

Mr N SINGH: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I am glad that I have had this opportunity to ask this question, because there is something that quite intrigues me.

Madam Deputy Speaker, we know that when we watch television or listen to the radio we get traffic reports and even air traffic and road traffic reports but something that surprises me or intrigues me is when the radio station that I listen to every morning speaks of train failures, trains not leaving on time or trains being cancelled.

I just want to know whether there is anything wrong with the rail infrastructure in the case of Cape Town. In fact, the other day, Deputy Speaker, as I was driving through, I saw a train just stopping in its tracks in the middle of nowhere and people were jumping off the train and running around. So, is the rail network in Cape Town adequate to cater for the needs of the people of the city? Thank you. The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: Well, while I cannot answer that question specifically an important element and aspect of the rail network, as well as the train services, that we are able to get from that is also investment in signalling equipment. And so, in the general underinvestment that has been manifested in the rail sector, obviously one of the things that would have suffered in that regard would have been the kinds of investments we need to make in signalling equipment. So, in general terms I would say, yes, clearly signalling would have to keep up with whatever investment you are making in rail infrastructure as well as locomotives. Generally also, there is a drive towards bringing more people back into rail as well as more goods back into rail so that you can reduce the pressure on the road network.

Mr S B FARROW: I just wanted to reiterate that the hon Cronin and I are singing off the same song sheet when it comes to that big “G” – you know, that project in Gauteng. If you look at that project, it cost in fact, as you actually outlined now, nearly three times more 12 to 14 years down the line. It is a single-line project which is actually providing a particular short passenger service very sophisticatedly. But needless to say, the question now is whether, after all these years of knowledge, of knowingness, the investment that went into that big “G” should have been better placed by putting it into Metrorail and having today a service which is going to be as good as, if not better than, that particular project at half the cost. Is it not now a case of too little too late, because it takes three years just to get a coach and we do not really want to go, as my colleague has just said, and import this particular coach when we actually now have the facilities in this country both to manufacture them and to refurbish them – all 5 000 of them?

I ask you the question: Is it too little too late, and shouldn’t that investment rather have been put into what we are talking about now – the R25 billion up to 2010?

The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: I think, hon member, that the issues of alignment are important - in other words, whether we have adequately aligned the work that has been done in terms of the Gautrain as well as this work that I was talking about. But, I think that it is important to understand that there is still a lot more that is going to be done even as the Gautrain project is proceeding, because part of the challenge that we also have to ensure is that Gautrain is not just a train that can ferry people that are moving from Johannesburg to Pretoria but that the rest of your rail and other public transport system can effectively link into the Gautrain project. So, there is still a lot of other work that is going to be done and that is part of what the current public transport strategy will also be trying to address. Thank you very much.

Promotion of indigenous languages as languages of research and development

1. Mr B J Mnyandu (ANC) asked the Minister of Science and Technology:

   What were the contributions of science and technology since 1999 to promote the use of indigenous languages as languages of research and development? NO1693E

TONA YA LEFAPHA LA SAENSE LE THEKNOLOTŠI: Mothuši wa Modulasetulo, mo lefapheng le re na le ofisi yeo e lebeletšego ditsebo tša batho ba ga borena yeo e lego gore e thomile go ba gona ka 2006. Ga bjale, ofisi ye e na le tšhelete yeo e šomišwago go dira dinyakišišo mabapi le tsebo ya batho ba ga borena yeo e laolwago ke NRF. E dira dinyakišišo mabapi le dihlogo tšeo e tlogo ba e di filwe ka dinako tše di fapanego.

Ofisi ye ga se ya ka ya ba le mošomo wa gore e nyakišiše ka go šomišwa ga maleme a rena mo lefaseng la ga borena. Fela, go na le dilo tše mmalwa tšeo di ilego tša dirwa gomme di kgopetšwe go dirwa diyunibesiting tša go swana le Stellenbosch le Zululand. Gape NRF e ile ya kgopelwa ke PanSALB gore e dire dinyakišišo mabapi le ditaba tšeo di sepelelanago le tšhomišo ya maleme a ga borena. Gore ofisi ye e tle e kgone go dira mošomo wa yona ka tshwanelo, re šetše re rile batho bao ba šomago ka tsebo ya batho ba mo lefaseng la gaborena gore ba šomiše maleme a bona go hlatholla dilo tšeo ba nyakago go di hlatholla. Ebile pholisi yeo re nago le yona, re rile e hlathollelwe go maleme ao a tshelelago a mo lefaseng la gaborena. Gape re kgopetše gore dikopano tšeo di tlogo ba gona mo lefaseng la ga borena go tloga bjale di dumelelwe go šomiša maleme a mo gae bjalo ka ge go šetše go thomilwe diprofenseng tša Lebowa-Bodikela le KwaZulu-Natal.

Gape re re go dirwe dipego tšeo di tlogo bewa ka tsela yeo e lego gore batho bao ba šomišago tsebo ye ya ga borena, ba tlo kgona go humana senyakwanyana goba go anya tsebong ye ya bona. Re rile dipego tšeo re swanetše go di dira gore di be ka maleme a rena ka moka ga wona, ebile re re go tla ba le motšhene woo o tlago go lokišwa gore o kgone go hlatholla tsebo yeo e ka bago e le gona ka leleme lefe kapa lefe mo lefaseng la gaborena gore e tle e kgone go humanwa ke ba bangwe bao ba dirago dinyakišišo ka maleme a mangwe. (Translation of Sepedi paragraphs follows.)

[The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: Deputy Speaker, there is an office in our department that started in 2006 and its main focus is on people’s skills. This office has funds that are currently allocated for skills research purposes by the NRF. They are conducting research on topics that they have been given at various times.

This office has never been tasked to conduct research into the use of our languages in this country. Nevertheless, there was research that was conducted at the Universities of Stellenbosch and Zululand. NRF has also been approached by PanSALB to conduct research on issues relating to languages. We have appealed to our human resource department to ensure that the reports are published in all official languages. We also suggested that the policy should be translated into the six other official languages. Furthermore, we made an appeal that in all the meetings that are to be held at a later stage in our country, indigenous languages must be used, as is already the case in KwaZulu-Natal and North West.

The reports must be written in such a way that people in the science and technology industry will be able to benefit from them. All the reports will be written in all official languages and there will be a device that will be used to explain all the information gathered so that it may be utilised by other future researchers.]

Mr B J MNYANDU: Thank you very much, Minister, for the response. As you know, the corporate strategy for the Department of Science and Technology is to have a national system of innovation that will take this country towards a knowledge-based economy. Knowledge is a commodity, therefore, that should be sold in the market to improve the economy and, in that case, is a kind of commodity that requires construction and for construction to take place, we need very strong language development in the early stages of the child’s learning in school.

In that case then, language is much more than just an identity. It is a tool to construct knowledge. My follow-up question is - I am not too sure if the Minister was able to cover this because I was trying to get through to the translation: How will the non-use of the indigenous languages affect South Africa in particular and Africa in general in this effort to create a knowledge-based economy in the 21st century and beyond? Also, how will this in turn affect the realisation of the African Renaissance? Thank you very much.

TONA YA LEFAPHA LA SAENSE LE THEKNOLOTŠI: Mohlomphegi o boletše gabotse. Efela re ka se thome ka go nyaka gore maleme a rena a šomišwe ke boramahlale go dira dinyakišišo mola e le gore maleme ao ga re a šomiše go gongwe le go gongwe mo a swanetšego go šomišiwa gona go swana le go tša molao, tša kgwebo le tša thuto, bjalo ka ge mohlomphegi a fetša go bolela. Re swanetše re dire gore maleme a a ga borena re a šomiše go gongwe le go gongwe, kudukudu mo thutong. E swanetš e e be maleme ao e lego gore re ya a hlompha.

Ge re ka dira bjalo, re tla humana e le gore re kgona le go pana batho ba ga borena gomme ra šomiša tsebo le kwešišo ya bona gore re tle re be le tšwelopele. Ge e le gore re šomiša sekgowa fela, kudukudu bana dikolong, re ba direla mathata k a gore pele ba ka kwešiša dilo tše ba swanetšego ba di kwešiše, ba swanetše ba kwešiše maleme a batho ba bangwe pele. Ke ka lebaka leo ga bjale dithutong tša go swana le tša Dipalo le Saense, bana bao e lego gore leleme la bona ka gae ga se leleme la Se-Afrikanse goba la Sekgowa, ba goga ka kgara.

Bjale re be re re, mokgalabje, re swanetše go lebelela maleme a ga borena thelebišeneng goba re bale le dikuranta tša maleme a ga borena. Ge re lebelela mo thelebišeneng, re humane e le gore maleme a ga borena a bolelwa gabotse gape le ka dikolong bana ba rutwa ka wona. Go tla ba le mošito ge bjale re tlo botšiša re dira dinyakišišo ka boramahlale bao ba šomago ka dilaporatoring tša rena gore na ba kgona go šomiša maleme a naa. Re ka se thome ka bonyakišiši bjo mola e le gore ga re šomiše maleme a rena ka tshwanelo ka dikolong le mafelong a mangwe. (Translation of Sepedi paragraphs follows.)

[The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: The hon member said a mouthful. However, we cannot expect our languages to be used by scientists while other sectors like the legal, business and education sectors are not using them yet. We must make sure that our languages are highly regarded and widely used, especially in the education sector. By so doing, we will be able to utilise our people and their skills and knowledge for development.

If English is the only language used, then we are going to have problems, especially with learners at school because this will make it difficult for them to understand what is being taught to them. Because of this, many of our learners are now struggling with Maths and Science, especially those who do not have English or Afrikaans as their home language.

Now we appeal to you to ensure that our languages are being used on television and that newspapers are also written in our own languages. We also want to see proper usage of those languages on television and also that they must be used as a medium of instruction at schools. In this way, it will be proper for us to conduct research on whether or not the scientists are able to make use of our languages in the laboratories. However, we cannot start with the research while our languages are not properly used at schools and other institutions.]

Dr U ROOPNARAIN: Minister, I just want to know whether there are any constructive peer dialogues in sharing of information on common experiences in order to reinforce successful and exemplary practices amongst African countries with African scholars. Here I am talking about an exchange of best practices, especially coming from academia. I also want to know whether there is any budget in your office or your department for the youth

• since we are in the youth month – who are from a disadvantaged background, but who are also in the intelligentsia or academia. Thank you, Minister.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The question has deviated a bit from the initial question. It is up to the Minister to respond.

TONA YA LEFAPHA LA SAENSE LE THEKNOLOTŠI: O nepile, mmagorena o tšwele tseleng. Ke a bona o be o se wa theeletša le go theeletša. Re šomišana le Lefapha la Thuto - lefapha leo le hlokomelago bana ge ba le ka dikolong le go hlokomela gore ke bafe bao ba hlokago gomme ba thuše ka tsela ye ba ka thušago ka gona kua dikolong le diyunibesiting.

Fela re na le kwano le mafase a mangwe a Afrika ao re thalathadilego ditsela le wona tša gore na re tlo šomišana bjang. Re na le go kopana re le Matona fela gomme nakong ye nngwe re kopane re le bahlankedi ba mmušo. Nakong ye nngwe go kopana boramahlale bao ba lego diyunibesiting tša gaborena le bao ba dirago dinyakišišo mo dikhanseleng gomme re bontšhane gore na ba ka dira eng ka seo ba se nyakišišago ka nako yeo. (Translation of Sepedi paragraphs follows.)

[The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: You are right, the hon member is out of order. I am sure you were not listening at all. We work jointly with the Department of Education - the department that deals directly with children and helps them with their needs at schools and universities.

However, we have an agreement with other African countries on how we are going to handle this problem together. We usually meet as Ministers and sometimes as government officials. Scientists at universities and researchers at various committees also meet to strategise the research.]

Mr J P I BLANCHÉ: Deputy Speaker, the question relates to science and the development of indigenous people. I think the department should not only look at science, but should also be looking at technology. My follow-up question is: Have any of the entities reporting to the Minister - the SA Human Sciences Research Council, the National Research Foundation and others - ever done research to find out whether any books should be written and printed in the indigenous languages so that technology can become a driving force for underdeveloped people?

Let me illustrate what I am getting at. We do not have manuals for electricians or tradesmen to do trade tests in any of the indigenous languages and this is the area where we need to train people, so if the research had been done … I have already done it and it is not available. Can it not be done by the department to ensure that somebody starts writing manuals to train plumbers, electricians, trains drivers, policemen and everybody else who wants to become something? We cannot just rely on science only to develop the nation. I think your department must look at science and technology. Has your department done anything to have any manuals printed in the indigenous languages?

TONA YA SAENSE LE THEKNOLOTŠI: O e swere, gape o nepile. Bothata bjo re nago le bjona re le batho ba Afrika ka moka ga yona ke gore re nagana gore Sekgowa ke tsebo. Ka baka leo, ga re kgone go ruta batho ba ga borena tsebo ka ntle le gore ba ithute leleme la motho yo mongwe. Bjale, mafase a mangwe ao a bilego l e tšwelopele a šomiša maleme a bona. Ba dira dilo tše dibotse tša go šomiša theknolotši tšeo re di šomišago efela ba sa tsebe Sekgowa. Molobanyana ke be le Japane mo ba dirago dilo tše dintši tšeo re di tsebago. Mo go bego le garetene, o šupa ka selo fela namile ya bulega. Ge o batamela ntlwana ya boithomelo, e a bulega gore o name o ithuše o iketlile. Ebile go na le konopi mo o tobetšago gona namile ya tutela. Le go kgona go go hlapiša e ya go hlapiša ge o dutše gona moo. [Disego.] [Tseno ganong.] (Translation of Sepedi paragraphs follows.)

[The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: You are absolutely right. The thing is we, as Africans, believe that if one has an excellent command of English, it means that one is highly knowledgeable. It is difficult for our people to learn and understand things in a language that is not known to them. However, other developed countries are using their indigenous languages. Despite the fact that they cannot speak or understand English, they still manufacture good technological products.

I was in Japan a few days ago and I witnessed a lot of technological innovations. They use remote controls to open the curtains. As for the toilets, the doors just open as you approach. There is also a button in the toilet that you press and it gets warm. It also cleans you while you are still on the seat. [Laughter.] [Interjections.]]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Minister, you may spare us the details! [Laughter.]

TONA YA LEFAPHA LA SAENSE LE THEKNOLOTŠI: Dilo tše ga di dirwe ka Sekgowa, di dirwa ka tsebo. Bjale, re humana e le gore batho ba gaborena ba bantši re ba tima tsebo ka gore re nyaka ba ithute Sekgowa pele. Mohlomphegi Blanché o bolela nnete ge a re re dire dibukana tša go swana le tše a bolelago ka tšona ge re ka kgona gore batho ba gaborena ba bantši ba tle ba kgone go ithutela go ba dilo tše a bolelago ka tšona - ba tsebe ka ga mohlagase le go dira dipompi. Mešomošomo ye mentši yeo e nyakago tsebo ga e nyake Sekgowa, e nyaka tsebo. Bjale, o boletše nnete mokgalabe yo. Ke ya mo thekga. [Legoswi.]

Moh S D MOTUBATSE-HOUNKPATIN: Morena Mangena, ka moka re a tseba gore leleme la motho ke selo se bohlokwa. Seo ke nyakago go se botšiša gabjale ke mabapi le tšhomišo ya theknolotši. Ge dikhomphutha di fihla go wona mafase a o šetšego o boletše ka wona, Japane, China, Russia, bjalobjalo, di fihla ka leleme la gabobona. Ba kgona go ngwala tšeo ba ratago go di ngwala ka leleme la gabobona. Na go ka kgonagala gore rena re le mo Afrika-Borwa, ge re nyaka go ngwala lengwalo ka Sepedi re kgone go hwetša maswao kamoka mo khomphutheng? Ge ke rata go dira mohlala, gabjale ge ke nyaka go ngwala “tša”, khomphutha e ile go nnea “tsa” goba ya mphošolola ya re ga gona selo sa go swana le seo ke se ngwalago ka ge e ngwadilwe ka Sekgowa. Malebo. TONA YA LEFAPHA LA SAENSE LE THEKNOLOTŠI: Wo mongwe wa mešomo yeo e bego e filwe NRF ke PanSALB, ke wa gore na ba ka kgona go fetolela tsebo ye e lego gona kua dikhomphutheng gore e bolele ka maleme a gaborena. Ba ile ba lema tema yeo e kwagalago. Ebile ke a tseba gore kua Yunibesiting ya Limpopo go na le batho bao ba šomago ka yona taba ye ya go fetolela tsebo yeo e lego moo gore e tle e be ka maleme a gaborena gape le gore dikhomphutha tšeo di tle di tsebe go kwešiša maleme a batho bjalo ka ge ba bolela gore batho ba tle b a kgone go boledišana le tšona ka maleme a tšona. Esego gore ba tlanye. Ba bolele le tšona ka tsela yeo e lego gore letšatši le o tlogo go ba o šetše o godile bjale, mokgekolo, o ile phenšeneng, o kgone go ya kua go ATM gomme o fihle ore wena ke wena semangmang gomme o nyaka phenšene ya gago. Khomphutha yona e tla go fetola e re ga ona tšhelete gomme o eme moo ka ge ba go phumutše ba Sassa. Go tlo kgonega gore go direge bjalo. Taba yeo e kgauswi gore re kgone go e tšweletša pele. Ka mokgwa wo ke kwelego ba šoma ka gona, ke bona okare e se kgale dilo tše o di bolelago ka moka re tla kgona go di dira ka dikhomphutha tšona tše mamohla re sa kgonego go di šomiša ka tshwanelo. (Translation of Sepedi paragraphs follows.)

[The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: One does not need to know English to be productive. You only need skills to do that. We often deprive our people of valuable skills because we expect them to be good in English first. Hon Blanché is right when he says we need to introduce manuals that will assist our people to learn more about electrical and plumbing skills. Most of the hard labour jobs do not require a knowledge of English, only skills are needed. This man is right, I support what he said. [Applause.]

Ms S D MOTUBATSE-HOUNKPATIN: Mr Mangena, we all know that one’s language is very important to one. My question is based mainly on the usage of technological devices. Countries like Japan, China, Russia and others invented computers and they have been programmed in their own languages. They are able to give instructions to them and they respond in their own languages. What I want to know is: Is it possible for us, in South Africa, to write whatever we want to write in Sepedi and be able to get the response and instructions in our languages? For example, if I want to write “tša” on a computer it will only write “tsa” or it may consider my spelling to be wrong because it was programmed in English. Thank you.

The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: One of the tasks given to the NRF by PanSALB is to investigate whether technology can make it possible for our languages to be available in computer programmes. They have done their part. We also know that a team has been delegated at the University of Limpopo to embark on the task of converting computer language into our languages and to programme them to understand our languages. Not to say that they must type them. They must programme them in such a way that they are also user-friendly. So that even the old and retired can just go to the ATM and withdraw their pension money. The computer will be able to tell you in your own language that you have no funds since your name has been deleted from the SA Social Security System. It is possible for computers to do that. We are getting closer to the completion of this task. From what I heard, it is possible for us to get all that has just been mentioned on computers - things that we are unable to access.]

Position regarding possible exemption from requirements of Employment
Equity Act of institutions having a broadly representative workforce

1. Ms A M Dreyer (DA) asked the Minister of Labour:

 Whether the Government will consider granting exemption from the
 requirements of the Employment Equity Act, Act 55 of 1998, to
 institutions which have a broadly representative workforce, such as the
 public service; if not, (a) why not and (b) what practical indicators
 does the Government use to determine whether affirmative action has
 worked; if so, when?    NO1677E

The MINISTER OF LABOUR: May I remind you, hon member, that the purpose of the Act is clear: The promotion of equal opportunities and fair treatment in employment through the elimination of unfair discrimination and the implementation of affirmative action measures to redress the disadvantages in employment experienced by designated groups. This includes Black people, women and people with disabilities, to ensure their equitable presentation in the workplace across all occupational categories and levels in line with the demographics of the economically active population with regard to race and gender. Therefore, even if the institution is broadly representative, this institution still has to ask itself a very important question: Is my organisation’s workforce equitable in terms of the representation of all designated groups across all occupational categories and levels?

There are various mechanisms that are used to assess whether affirmative action is working or not. These mechanisms include, amongst other things, the proactive, reactive and blitz inspections that are conducted on a daily basis by labour inspectors in workplaces, focusing on administrative compliance with the requirements of the Act. The director-general’s reviews that were introduced in the 2006-07 financial year are focusing on an ongoing basis on the substantive compliance of some companies, currently concentrating on the top one hundred Johannesburg security exchange-listed companies.

Lastly, there is the analysis of the employer’s employment equity reports that are being submitted on the first working day of October to the Department of Labour. It is important to know that these reports outline the progress made by all designated employers in implementing affirmation action in their own workplaces.

The outcome of this analysis is reported in the annual reports to the Commission for Employment Equity and its reports are available on the departmental website. Therefore, it is important to note that the results of all these measuring tools indicate that progress made by the labour market in implementing affirmative action is moving at a snail’s pace and there is more that must be done to strengthen both the enforcement and the implementation mechanisms of the Act. Thank you.

Ms A M DREYER: Firstly, I am glad that the Minister has shown us that he can count. Secondly, I am sure everyone will remember that there were five reasons why the DA opposed his budget. In terms of his answer to my question, my follow-up question is: How much worse does the skills crisis have to become before the Minister takes off his ideological blinkers and removes racist criteria for appointing people?

The MINISTER OF LABOUR: Unfortunately the hon member has forgotten one very important document that caused the African National Congress, the party that’s going to win the next election, to introduce the Employment Equity Act to enable us to implement the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa. If the hon member is saying that the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa is racist, then I don’t know what remedy I can give to the hon member.

In actual fact, if you say employment equity is racist, then you are saying that the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa is racist, because the Employment Equity Act is an enabling Act. It enables us to implement what is written in Chapter two of the Bill of Rights of our Constitution. I don’t really understand what it is the hon member is talking about. Is it racist to affirm people with disabilities? Is it racist to affirm women? Employment equity affirms those people as well. I don’t really understand where the DA got this hon member from. Please send this hon member back to school. [Applause.]

Dr R RABINOWITZ: The number I want to use is 55 and then add three zeros so that I come to 55 000. That is the number of posts that are vacant in the Department of Health. We understand the BEE component and that it is necessary. I’m not sure what you have to do in your cluster with the hon Minister of Health, because part of her human resources programme is BEE. I’m not sure how much you know about the impact of 55 000 vacancies. Whether you do know or don’t know anything, what is your view of BEE as applied to health employment equity if that is a factor in causing such high vacancies in the Department of Health? Thank you.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Again the question is not related to the principle question. It is up to the Minister to answer that or we could ask the hon member to put the question afresh for a later response.

The MINISTER OF LABOUR: The question is also directed at the Minister of Health. Suffice it to say there are 4 million white people in the country and 43 million black people in the country. Just remember that; it’s not me who says so, it’s the statistics of the Republic of South Africa. Though all together we are 47 million people in the country, the majority must participate in the decision-making in the country and they participate in the economy. You must remember that this majority is the one that was dominated by the minority in the past. If we want this country to be stable, one of the fundamentals of making this economy grow is to make sure that there is stability in this economy and the best way to make it stable, is to allow all the people in this country to participate in the economy - black, pink and yellow.

Ms A M DREYER: I want to ask the Minister: Is he aware that what the ANC is trying to do with their racist affirmative action is to impose quotas at the end of the process, to see the end result? What the DA wants to do is to improve or open up the gates so that more people have access to the process. Is he aware that the international advisory panel on economic growth says that at the top level we are the reshuffling people and that’s keeping people from the bottom level out and we want to improve the bottom level for the unemployed black youth?

The MINISTER OF LABOUR: What I can tell you, as a person who knows a step ladder - I did a lot of painting a few years ago – is that we are very few at the top; the majority of our people are at the bottom of the ladder. What I know - and now the prophet is talking – is that the poor people will rise up and shake the step ladder. We will all decide in this room, whether it would be the tummy first or the head first. There will be no time for consultation. There will be no time for mandates, no portfolio committee meetings, and when you reach the ground with a huge tummy like mine, they will open it up and eat you alive.

Mr M J ELLIS: The hon Minister raised the issue of the elections in 2009, and I simply want to ask him: What he will be doing after the 2009 elections next year?

The MINISTER OF LABOUR: I am a member of the African National Congress, very disciplined, very loyal, no crossing of the floor. I will be campaigning for the ANC and I will make sure the ANC wins the election. Whoever comes into government, whether I become a Member of Parliament, the members of the ANC will determine. I will come here and you will be retiring in Durban because you are not going to come back into this House - I can assure you of that. [Applause.]

             Government’s programme for funding of Eskom

1. Mr N Singh (IFP) asked the Minister of Finance:

   (1) Whether, in light of the announcement that the Government will fund Eskom with R60 billion over the next five years, any form of funding programme has been finalised; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details;

   2) what types of funding vehicles are being considered?

           NO1698E
   

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: This is a Singh-Singh question without the Bekker. The funding of Eskom would be through a subordinated loan with equity-like features. After consideration and a series of meetings with Eskom, we thought that this would be the most viable funding method. The modalities will be finalised as we proceed and it is important to recognise that the R60 billion is part of the announced R343 billion of a build and maintenance programme that Eskom would have over the next few years.

In respect of the second question, clearly there will have to be an evaluation of the guarantees but it is important to understand that in its almost one hundred years of history Eskom has always been funded off its own balance sheet, paid for by its consumers, with one exception of a subordinated loan granted to Eskom in 1934. So that has been the relationship essentially and it’s clearly one that we would like to return to, namely that the subordinated loan is an interim measure, but we would like to return it to good financial health at the earliest opportunity. Thank you.

Mr N SINGH: I think my question was largely linked to the modalities of the R60 billion which you’ve indicated are still being worked on. Could we have a timeframe by which you think that modality would be on the table and the money would be handed over to Eskom? But further, during the public hearings recently which Nersa conducted, there were reports, right or wrong, that government may still assist Eskom further in terms of financial assistance. Is there any truth in that?

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: On 29 May I advised the hon Singh not to believe everything that he reads in the newspaper or everything that he may read in the wrapper of a certain bubblegum, the name of which I cannot mention because it will have commercial value.

What we’ve said is that we will engage with Eskom; there’s clearly been a series of issues that have been quite uncertain. The application that Eskom made to Nersa was for an increase substantially higher than that agreed to by Nersa. The announcement by Nersa now would place Eskom in a position where a number of assumptions would have to be revisited. So, the talks are going to be ongoing about this.

I think that we want to ensure that all South Africans understand that this is not something we are sitting on our hands about. There can’t be any South African who relishes the difficulties that Eskom is living through at the moment. We want to ensure that the utilities are restored to the best possible financial health in the shortest space of time, that we can put this period of power outages behind us and that there is certainty as regards power supply and power costs.

In the generation of power there will also be a keen appreciation of environmental concerns. Those are our concerns, and these are issues that will be resolved with Eskom. I think that there are also issues outside of the immediacy of the relationship, namely that market conditions are tightening. Eskom, for a long period was the benchmark by which South African debt was measured. That is no longer the case but that happens in an environment where, apart from finance and fuel prices, there’s also a credit squeeze internationally, so you cannot just approach global capital markets and hope to borrow at the same rates that you did a few months ago.

These are all issues that you have to take into account and I can give the hon Singh and this House the assurance that the Treasury in general, and the assets and liability division of the Treasury in particular, remains in very close collaboration with Eskom to ensure that we can emerge from this period stronger. Thank you.

Dr R RABINOWITZ: Hon Minister, while you are refurbishing Eskom, you are also undertaking measures to relieve the pressure on Eskom and the chance of having to spend more on Eskom in future, and on other projects to increase our electricity supply. There are millions of people in this country who are looking forward to purchasing renewable energy and supplying renewable energy as an option but they need assurance in terms of financial mechanisms. One of the options that has been suggested by Nersa - in fact it’s on their website - is the feed-in tariff. To what extent are you considering the possibility of introducing feed-in tariffs soon to promote the uptake of renewable energy in the country and also a secure market price for industries who generate their own electricity? The lack of that has been an inhibitory factor in bringing in these other sorts of solutions into the market? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Deputy Speaker, I need to borrow the Joint Rules from the hon Motlanthe, because I don’t know what the Rules say about follow-up questions. I don’t believe this is a follow-up question; it’s a wide shot and it doesn’t come close to the direction of what we are talking about, so I will defer the question. It can be reformulated and directed to the appropriate Minister. Thank you.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The just thing to say is not that you need the Joint Rules; you need the Rules of the National Assembly. [Interjections.]

Dr D T GEORGE: We certainly hope, Minister, that you are coming back next year. It is good to know that Eskom will be funded, ultimately consumers will pay, and it’s just a matter of how the pain will be distributed.

Eskom is not just any company. We rely on Eskom to ensure our electricity supply. It is insurance for our economic growth and it needs to be financially sound. Why then did government receive dividends from Eskom when they were not in a financially sustainable position to issue the dividends? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: Deputy Speaker, I thank Dr George for the question but this is also a matter that was canvassed just recently. I think part of the context for this is one that the Democratic Alliance has raised from time to time. There was a period in history when government took the best advice and considered that it no longer had the sole responsibility to generate all electricity through its utility, Eskom. During that period it actively sought to bring private sector players into generation, but transmission would remain an Eskom responsibility. There would be independent power producers and then the issue of the distribution would be substantially restructured. This was a model followed; there was very extensive advice about changes in global trends and so on.

A series of things have happened in the interim, including the repeated power outages in the state of California and then in the north-eastern part of the United States. There was the collapse of Enron and that funding model, and suddenly all the private sector players, who previously had sniffed around, walked away from this. But over and above that there has also been the reality that energy prices in South Africa are still the lowest in the world. We had a situation where a utility that had generator surplus had clearly been able to provide for its future, however, that future was determined. It was going to be a smaller future with other players coming into the generation of energy. It no longer needed that capital, in terms of the models available and the profit primarily to the government and some of this was continuous across the first elections in 1994. The work started in the early nineties and continued after the arrival of democracy in South Africa. It was the best available advice. Government took it, and I think as President Mbeki has said “we apologise for having taking the advice and acted thereupon”. Those were the circumstances.

The relationship - and it’s a well-documented relationship between government and Eskom - is one where Eskom not only provided the electricity paid for by consumers of electricity, but was able to provide a range of special tariffs to industrial customers and the mining sector in particular. Eskom was able to maintain this for well over 80 years through paid dividends and taxes. It didn’t turn to the fiscus for injections. This has been the relationship but what we are saying now is that the model is changing. Thank you. [Interjections.]

Ms N R MOKOTO: Hon Minister, if Eskom is going to raise the rest of its envisaged R343 billion required from the expenditure of the markets - besides the R60 billion loan - how will this affect the external borrowing requirements and external vulnerability of the country in light of the current account deficit? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: The total Capex that Eskom is working to is something in the order of R343 billion at the moment. The amount that they have pencilled in for borrowing over the next five years is approximately R148 billion; the rest would have to be raised from user fees and other charges. The R148 billion, we think, can be absorbed fairly easily by capital markets, primarily because government is in a position now where we have significantly reduced our borrowing. In fact, we are in a position of fiscal surplus and the only financing we are doing right now is refinancing.

The external vulnerability includes a measure of short-term debt as well as long-term foreign debt. Then to that you add the current account deficit divided by the official reserves.

Since Eskom is not planning to borrow on its short-term foreign debt, the borrowing will not have an immediate, measurable impact on the external vulnerability. As the matter stands - and they could change after the election - there is no immediate borrowing plan from government over the next five years.

Therefore, the management of the liability portfolio is something that can be managed, because part of what we have to see includes issues that were raised earlier to ensure that all state enterprises, including those responsible for the provision of rail transport and so on, and the roads agency, have access to capital markets. One has to manage this and part of what I think the Treasury will have responsibility for, is managing what may appear to be a queuing system to ensure that our agencies and government don’t compete in the market. This should not be seen as an attempt to try to take away the market share opportunities in the scramble to ensure that we can all have access to an adequate supply of long-term debt. Thank you.

Questions concluded.

See also QUESTIONS AND REPLIES.

The House adjourned at 17:20. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

ANNOUNCEMENTS National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1. Classification of Bills by Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM)

   1) The JTM in terms of Joint Rule 160(6) classified the following Bills as section 75 Bills:

   a) Higher Education Amendment Bill [B 34 – 2008] (National
      Assembly – sec 75).
   
   
   b) Intelligence Services Amendment Bill [B 37 – 2008] (National
      Assembly – sec 75).
   

(2)    The JTM in terms of Joint Rule 160(6) classified the following
     Bill as a section 76 Bill:

      a) General and Further Education and Training Quality Assurance
         Amendment Bill [B 35 – 2008] (National Assembly – sec 76).

1. Introduction of Bills

 (1)    The Minister of Transport


      a) National Land Transport Bill [B 51 – 2008] (National Assembly
         – proposed sec 76) [Explanatory summary of Bill and prior
         notice of its introduction published in Government Gazette No
         31060 of 15 May 2008.]


         Introduction and referral to the Portfolio Committee on
         Transport of the National Assembly, as well as referral to the
         Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for classification in terms of
         Joint Rule 160.


         In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the classification
         of the Bills may be submitted to the JTM within three
         parliamentary working days.


 (2)    The Minister of Minerals and Energy
      a) National Energy Bill [B 52 – 2008] (National Assembly –
         proposed sec 75) [Explanatory summary of Bill and prior notice
         of its introduction published in Government Gazette No 31124
         of 3 June 2008.]


         Introduction and referral to the Portfolio Committee on
         Minerals and Energy of the National Assembly, as well as
         referral to the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for
         classification in terms of Joint Rule 160.


         In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the classification
         of the Bills may be submitted to the JTM within three
         parliamentary working days.

COMMITTEE REPORTS

National Assembly

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