National Assembly - 10 November 2009
TUESDAY, 10 NOVEMBER 2009 __
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
____
The House met at 15:23.
The Deputy Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.
NOTICES OF MOTION
Mr P VAN DALEN: Madam Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move:
That the House debates the current Eskom crisis and the economic effects of government interference in the internal affairs of public enterprises.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you, hon member. That is notice of a motion.
Mrs A T LOVEMORE: Madam Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of the DA:
That the House debates the findings presented in the recently released State of the Air report and the mechanisms and actions now required to ensure that all South Africans breathe air that is not harmful to their health or their wellbeing.
Ms S P RWEXANA: Madam Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of Cope:
That the House urgently and thoroughly debates the issue of the mounting deaths of civilians at the hands of the police in the aftermath of the “shoot to kill” sentiments expressed by the Minister, the President and the Deputy Minister.
Mr D A KGANARE: Madam Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move on behalf of Cope:
That the House debates whether the extent of security being provided to the President of the ANC Youth League is being matched in respect of similar youth leaders of other political parties.
Mr M S F DE FREITAS: Madam Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move, on behalf of the DA: That the House debates the recently held presidential, provincial and national assembly elections in Mozambique and the lessons learned from these elections for South Africa.
Mrs M WENGER: Madam Deputy Speaker, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House I shall move:
That the House debates the fiasco around the so-called “Referendum Matatiele”, in particular the issue of why the IEC was not involved in the process to ensure that the referendum was free and fair.
20TH ANNIVERASARY OF FALL OF BERLIN WALL
(Draft Resolution)
Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Deputy Speaker, I move without notice:
That the House –
1) notes that 9 November 2009, commemorates the 20th anniversary of
the fall of the Berlin Wall, effectively signalling the end of the
Cold War;
2) further notes that the fall of the Berlin Wall paved the way for
German reunification, which was formally concluded on 3 October
1990;
3) recognises that the lessons learned from this period in history
have strong resonance in our own, also marked by strong and
unnecessary divide;
4) calls on all members and the entire South African nation to
identify those walls that still exist in our minds, and break them
down; and
5) recommits itself to those values that unite the nation and urges
South Africans to build on them together.
Agreed to.
APPOINTMENT OF WOMAN PROVINCIAL POLICE COMMISSIONER IN KWAZULU-NATAL
(Draft Resolution)
Mrs C DUDLEY: Madam Deputy Speaker, I move without notice:
That the House-
1) notes that the second woman ever to be promoted to provincial
commissioner in the South African Police Service, Monnye Ngobeni,
who served in the police for 22 years and is academically qualified
for the job, was appointed on 5 November 2009, as provincial
commissioner of KwaZulu-Natal; and
2) congratulates Commissioner Ngobeni on her promotion.
Agreed to.
INTERNATIONAL DAY OF PERSONS WITH DISABILITIES
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Hon Deputy Speaker, I move without notice:
That the House –
1) notes that 3 December marks the annual observance of the
International Day of Persons Living With Disabilities and the aim
of this day is to promote an understanding of disability issues;
2) further notes that this day also seeks to increase awareness about
gains that are derived from the integration of persons living with
disabilities in every aspect of political, social, economic and
cultural life;
3) acknowledges that persons living with disabilities continue to face
barriers to their participation in society and are often forced to
live on the margins of society;
4) believes that dignity and justice for all persons are universal
principles, and the rights of all members of the human family form
the foundations of freedom, equality and justice for all, and peace
in the world; and
5) commits itself on this day, to the creation of an ever-expanding
frontier of the dignity of people living with disabilities, since
the achievement of that dignity, for this section of our society,
should be predicated on the freedom of the individual to determine
his or her destiny.
Agreed to.
SA RESERVE BANK GOVERNOR, TITO MBOWENI, HANDS OVER TO NEW GOVERNOR, mS GILL MARCUS, after 10-year tenure
(Draft Resolution) Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Deputy Speaker, I move without notice:
That the House –
1) notes that on Friday, 6 November 2009, Mr Tito Mboweni, the eight
Governor of the South African Reserve Bank officially handed over
his position of Governor to Ms Gill Marcus, after an impressive ten-
year tenure at the bank;
2) further notes that his career includes many exceptional highlights,
including several honorary doctorates from amongst others, Unisa,
the University of Natal, the University of North West and
Stellenbosch University;
3) recognises that under his leadership the South African economy
experienced prudential monetary policies which contributed towards
unprecedented economic growth over a period of several years, and
managed to see us through one of the worst global financial crises
ever in commendable fashion;
4) thanks Mr Mboweni for his dedicated service to our nation over the
past ten years; and
5) wishes him the best of success in all his future endeavours.
Agreed to.
CONDOLENCES ON PASSING AWAY OF COMRADE ELEANOR KASRILS
(Draft resolution)
Mrs J D KILIAN: Madam Deputy Speaker, I move without notice:
That the House –
1) notes with profound sadness the passing away of comrade Eleanor
Kasrils on Sunday 8 November 2009;
2) further notes that she was a committed fighter in the struggle to
end apartheid and to work for a non-racial, democratic South
Africa;
3) acknowledges that her devotion to the freedom of all the people of
South Africa led to her arrest in 1963 and that, subsequent to her
escape from custody, she went into exile where she continued to
work tirelessly for the freedom of the South African people;
4) remembers her tireless dedication to the liberation movement in
England and in Tanzania during her approximately 30 years in exile;
5) believes that her selfless contribution towards the struggle and to
the birth of the new constitutional democracy can never be fully
appreciated; and
6) conveys its sincere condolences to her friends, comrades in the
struggle and the Kasrils family, in particular to her husband
Ronnie, her daughter Brigid and her two sons Andrew and
Christopher.
Agreed to.
Declaration of 21 November as world television day
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Deputy Speaker, I move without notice:
That the House –
1) notes that in March 1998 the United Nations General Assembly
proclaimed 21 November as World Television Day commemorating the
date on which the first World Television Forum was held in 1996;
2) further notes that this day is designed to encourage global
exchanges of television programmes focusing on peace, security,
economic and social development and the enhancement of cultural
exchange;
3) believes television is one of the most influential forms of media
in our present time because of the considerable convenience it
offers to its audience of all ages, nationalities and social status
worldwide;
4) further believes that television plays an effective role in
disseminating information and knowledge and serves as a powerful
tool for reflecting and shaping human conditions and aspirations;
and
5) commits itself to the broadcaster that aligns its programmes with
the principles of the Constitution, social cohesion, nation-
building, spiritual, moral and cultural values of the country’s
people united in their diversity.
Agreed to.
PARLIAMENTARY RUGBY TEAM TO PLAY IN THE UNITED KINGDOM AND IRELAND
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Deputy Speaker, I move without notice:
That the House –
1) notes that from 19 to 29 November 2009, thirty parliamentary rugby
team members will be visiting the United Kingdom and Ireland;
2) further notes that the team comprises Members of Parliament across
party lines, parliamentary staff members and VIP Protection
Services;
3) acknowledges that during the tour the team will play two matches:
the first match against the House of Commons and the House of Lords
in London on Sunday, 22 November 2009, the second against the Irish
parliament on Saturday, 28 November 2009;
4) further acknowledges that in addition to rugby, a programme is
being put together that will enable MPs and members of the team to
interact with South Africans living in the UK and Ireland as well
as visit both Houses of Parliament in the UK and Ireland; and
5) wishes the team a successful tour and a happy stay in the UK and
Ireland.
Agreed to.
PROCESS OF DEVELOPING WHITE PAPER ON CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE IN SOUTH
AFRICA
(Statement by Minister for Co-operative Governance and Tranditional
Affairs)
The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker. Well, I hope that I’m not going to fall into the category of ubab’ uKomphela [Mr Komphela] in terms of the ability to remember who is chairing, who is presiding.
Deputy Speaker, comrades in Cabinet, Deputy Ministers, hon members and ladies and gentlemen, it is with a great sense of pride and honour that we present in this august House a process that will be undertaken in developing a Green Paper that will subsequently lead to the White Paper on Co-operative Governance in South Africa.
An attempt has been made in the past to ensure that legislatively the Intergovernmental Relations Framework Act of 2005 was developed with the aim of trying to translate Chapter 3 of the Constitution on co-operative governance. The Constitution of the Republic of South Africa recognises and appreciates the fact that there are three spheres of government in this country: they are interdependent, they are interrelated, and they are autonomous, meaning that we recognise the fact that South Africa is one country, has one President and that we must move to a situation in which there is one system.
On 11 May 2009, the President of the Republic, with his visionary insight, established the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs. This happened after the weaknesses had been identified. These weaknesses were related to the issue of policy development, implementation, monitoring and evaluation, budgeting, and the utilisation of human resources. As much as the outcome recognises the fact that there is a lot of duplication, there is a silo mentality and, at the same time, there is a challenge in respect of co-operation and co-ordination within the spheres of government.
The resources that are quite important in respect of human resources and financing, as well as time which is a precious commodity, illustrated that they are not utilised optimally. Therefore, the issue here is that, at times, we don’t get value for money. Our motto that has been borrowed from the people’s movement, the ANC says: “Together, we can do more”, and we can do more with fewer resources and with less input for greater output and greater outcomes. We are saying it cannot be business as usual. We must do things differently, particularly under this global economic meltdown. This situation compels us to mend our ways.
It is against this background that we are embarking on a process of developing a Green Paper on Co-operative Governance. It is an area in which we haven’t claimed to be specialists or in which we haven’t claimed authority. Therefore, we are calling upon all South Africans from all walks of life, from across the length and breadth of our country, to come forward and assist in developing a system of co- operative governance in this country that is simple, uncomplicated, easily understandable and accessible, a system that incentivises value for money and maximises the impact as a result of co-ordination and co-operation between government with all its spheres and the people of South Africa.
Let us look at where we are structurally within the three spheres of government. In South Africa, at a national level, we have a Cabinet, which is the highest decision-making body in government, with its committees. We also have the Fosad, the Forum of South African Directors-General, which is a structure of officials - where the DGs are sitting. We have the provincial executive councils and their committees, and on an administrative level they are led by Fosad. In local government, we have mayoral or executive committees with their committees. Administratively these structures are led by municipal managers.
The co-ordination of these structures in all these spheres is as follows. The supreme body is the Presidential Co-ordinating Council where the President, with the Premiers and, of course, the mayors and also some – not all – Ministers sit. We also have 16 Minmec, which are sectoral structures dealing with concurrent functions. We have nine premiers’ intergovernmental fora, and 46 district intergovernmental fora that are led by the mayors of the districts working with local mayors. These are the structures that are prevailing. The SA Local Government Association, Salga, participates in these structures.
We are going to be assessing the efficiency and efficacy of the structures, looking at their output and at the value added in the system of governance. There is a litany of structures between government and civil-society formations which, as we speak, we do not know how many of them there are. We will be doing an assessment of the structures; we will be looking at them. We will also be looking at the issue of trying to avoid public participation fatigue. In addition, we will be looking at resources of these structures as to whether we are funding democracy in the proper way.
On concurrent functions, this process will also inform us whether nationally agreed-to priorities are implemented by provinces as they are supposed to be. We have agreed that the Green Paper will be ready in April
- That Green Paper will be presented, having been developed allowing a process of consultation and engagement. This process will be led by an interdepartmental team, composed of Cogta, the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs; the Presidency, the National Treasury, the Department of a Public Service and Administration, the Department of Health, the Department of Education, the Department of Social Development, the Department of Human Settlements, the Department of Rural Development and Land Reform, the Department of Water and Environmental Affairs, the Department of Energy, the Department of Police, the Department of Economic Development, and the SA Local Government Association, Salga.
Whilst the policy is being developed, there are interim arrangements that have been agreed upon by Cabinet. These arrangements say that in terms of concurrent functions, when a Minister goes to a community, the Minister must be able to engage with the premier of the province, must be able to engage with his or her counterparts at the local level on concurrent functions, and must be able to communicate with the district and local municipalities about the visit so that we are able to promote co-ordination and co-operation on the way in which things are being done as we go forward.
We have agreed that these guidelines must be followed. I want to say at this sitting that some premiers – about five of them – have written letters raising the same issues before even being told: that when leaders go into their own areas they would like to be extended the courtesy of being told beforehand. This is because at times there are commitments that are made by national leaders, and you find that national leaders, when they are no longer there, the issues still remain with the local leadership. Therefore the best thing to do is to ensure that we work together cohesively and coherently in the way we do things.
The other area that has been agreed upon, that is going to be taken up, is that when powers and functions are assigned, it must be done within a policy framework and a set of guidelines that is called “Assignment of Powers and Functions,” which was developed in 2007. We are saying the letter and spirit of this policy have to be followed, because this will prevent a situation in which unfunded mandates are given to municipalities in a way that undermines their ability to do the work.
The review of the concurrent functions will be done by the sectors, co- ordinated, of course, by Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, which will, in turn, report to Cabinet on a quarterly basis, also looking at the value added of these structures.
I must say, in the execution of this duty, we’ll be meeting with the leader of the DA, the Premier of the Western Cape, at which we will be discussing some of the areas of disagreement with regard to the visit of the Minister to Mitchells Plain and Khayelitsha, where the water was cut off. You may find that we’re not singing from the same page in our engagement of these issues. Therefore, what we are saying is that we’ll be meeting to look at effecting the prescripts of the intergovernmental relations framework, wherein, if there are disputes or disagreements between the spheres of government, they must be able to sit down and engage. We’ll be engaging on this, but I must hasten to say that people must know that there is no part of South Africa where the national government is not going to go, irrespective of any party that is governing that area. [Applause.]
We must allow a situation in which, if citizens in a particular area are calling upon a Minister or an MEC or the President, these people have the right to go and listen to the people on the ground, and we are going to do the same. The Western Cape as a province, Cape Town as a municipality, are not going to be excluded from that or treated specially when we deal with those issues. [Interjections.] [Applause.]
We are calling upon everyone who has a contribution to make to come to the party when we conclude. Leonard Bernstein said:
If the conductor uses a baton, the baton itself must be a living thing, charged with a kind of electricity, which makes it an instrument of meaning in its tiniest movement.
Many voices, but one message, melody and song! Thank you very much. [Interjections.] [Applause.] Mr W P DOMAN: Deputy Speaker, again today the Minister showed respect for this institution of Parliament by coming to us and also by showing respect for us as public representatives to outline what he’s going to do and giving us in the House the opportunity to reflect on it.
I’ve got a government document here. On page 7 his predecessor promised us that by the end of 2008 that there would be a new White Paper on provinces and a review report on local government, but the Minister is picking up that baton and we will support him as far as possible.
I want to tell the hon Minister that he’s very welcome to visit municipalities and the province that is governed by the DA. We’ve got some good practices there that he can learn from and also take to the ANC provinces. [Interjections.] [Applause.] I’m also very glad that he is in a conciliatory mood with the Premier of the Western Cape about the visit to Mitchells Plain and Khayelitsha; I’m sure that that will be resolved. He actually only made only one mistake and that was to go with the hon Fransman to that area! [Laughter.] [Interjections.]
The DA agrees that our country needs a major public debate about our system of co-operative governance. We need a governance system that is more effective and efficient, and which better addresses the needs of our people. This review should be driven by what we need in practice. We need that powers and functions of the different spheres should be more clearly defined and that unfunded mandates of, especially, municipalities are resolved.
It is clear from the protests that ordinary citizens do not know which sphere of government is responsible for what. Houses, for example, are demanded from municipalities while it is not their function. We need greater national co-ordination and the alignment of planning. The integrated development plans of municipalities are everything but integrated with the municipal budgets, let alone provincial planning, and therefore remain wish lists of communities.
We need better assistance financially and otherwise, and better oversight, especially over municipalities, not in a manner to infringe on their autonomy, but to assist them to fully fulfil their role. Therefore we need intergovernmental relations to be properly structured and practised to their full potential.
In addressing these challenges it will be important to remember that the Constitution is our founding document for the new South Africa. It contains the basic agreements we reached and it must bind us all together in our quest for solutions to improve our governance system. Therefore changes to the Constitution should not be made lightly, and if any are necessary, they should be made in the same spirit of consensus-seeking that underpinned the crucial agreements that were reached with the interim and final Constitution. The creation of provinces is one such agreement that we should respect. The whole system of co-operative governance of the three spheres lies, as you’ve said, at the heart of our Constitution and should also be respected as such. Therefore, because this is so important, we would like to remind you that proper consultation with the public is an absolute necessity, Minister. In this regard the Minister should allow proper time for inputs and comments, and allow for everyone to be heard.
In many ways we are in a crisis, especially at local government level, and therefore we have to address the significant amount of fraud and corruption that is taking place. We have a breakdown in communication, and I think we can do better. Thank you very much. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Mr T BOTHA: Hon Deputy Speaker, Cope welcomes the process outlined by the Minister towards a streamlined institutional arrangement, which seeks to improve service delivery at both provincial and local spheres of government.
However, Cope believes that the success of this process will depend on the respect given to the constitutional autonomy of each sphere of government. In pursuing the consultative process, the government will have to adhere to the principles of separation of powers between government and political party and between the ruling party and organs of civil society. Cope is already worried about the trend that is beginning to emerge in the country where officials of the party go around the country replacing municipal officials, mayors and councillors. We are not sure what the role of the Minister is and what the role of the party is.
Co-operative governance, as has already been said, is the cornerstone of our Constitution and the success of our delivery processes. It is therefore necessary to respect and encourage the fact that each sphere plays a role that it is mandated to carry out by the Constitution, without interference from party structures. But it also needs to be empowered to carry out these roles, and it would be a pity if in each sphere of government when there is a different party in power, that the national government would seek to interfere with the running of the affairs of that particular sphere of government. [Applause.]
We hope that the proposed amendments to the Constitution are not seeking to undermine the democracy that is enshrined in our Constitution. Thank you. [Applause.]
Mr P F SMITH: Deputy Speaker, I would like to start by thanking the Minister for bringing this to us in the House. We think it’s a very good thing that he presents it here. And I would like to say to him that we will gladly engage in the process. We are pleased too that he is doing a Green Paper too before a White Paper. There are departments that leap from nowhere to a White Paper, leaving no space for public participation. So, thank you for that.
But I would like to make two comments that are pertinent, I hope, to this discussion. The first is that you are going to have to strike a balance between voluntarism and commandism in the way you balance the extent of regulation. The tendency at the moment I suspect in government is to leap on the side of a more regulatory framework, which may or may not be appropriate, because if we are talking about co-operative governance, we need people to co-operate and forcing people to co-operate is a bit of an oxymoron. You may as well do away with the word co-operative if you are telling them what to do. So that is the first caution.
The second one – and this is nine seconds - and I speak … I don’t know which one it is. Sorry, Chair, on my little thing there, the computer, it said I had two minutes. Here it says I have 10 seconds.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Now, you don’t even have those two minutes.
Mr P F SMITH: On those computer things there on my desk, it says two minutes. [Interjections.] So it should be one minute more now.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, no. Just continue.
Mr P F SMITH: So, Chair, that is my first caution: strike a balance between the two.
The second caution, Minister, is that please do not see regulating IGR as the Holy Grail of government failures. It is important, of course, to get your IGR working properly, but there are other very important issues that are just as important, if not more important, if you want government to work. Frankly, to ascribe failings of government basically to the IGR system that is not doing its job is a weak excuse.
Let me give some values and other things that are just as important. How about efficiency, dedication, hard work, integrity, clean governance, a good service ethic, common sense and value for money? All these issues, I would argue, are just as important in sorting out government failures as good as IGR. So, when you get involved with the White Paper, please let’s not think that that White Paper process and even implementing it will solve everything. It is just part of a far bigger picture of problems that you need to address yourself to as government. Thank you.
Mr P J GROENEWALD: Deputy Speaker, my advice to my colleague is that he must play 30 Seconds more often, then 60 seconds will feel very long.
Ek wil vir die agb Minister sê dat hy baie dinge in die openbaar sê en dit is ook duidelik dat hy hier, met die witskrif wat ter sprake gaan kom, ’n poging aanwend om wel die probleme van plaaslike regering aan te spreek. Ek wil ook vir u, agb Minister, sê dat u in hierdie hele proses moet luister na wat die voorstelle van die opposisie is. U moet luister as ons met voorstelle na u toe kom, want ons is ook hierso in belang van Suid-Afrika.
Ek het in 1998 hier van dieselfde podium vir die Minister, ek dink dit was toe Sydney Mufamadi, gesê plaaslike regering is die bom wat ons land in duie gaan laat stort en dit is presies wat gebeur het. U moet nie wag tot ons op so ’n stadium kom dat alles in duie gestort het voor u begin luister na die opposisie nie. Dan sal ons ’n beter Suid-Afrika kry met ’n beter bedeling op plaaslike regeringsvlak, en ek stem saam met die agb lid van die DA dat ons nie net kan torring aan die Grondwet wanneer dit ons pas nie. Aan die ander kant, het die DA drie grondwetwysigings voorgestel om oorlopery toe te pas, so hulle is die laaste om te praat. Dankie. [Tyd verstreke.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[I want to inform the hon Minister that he is saying a lot of things in public and it is also evident here, with the White Paper coming up for discussion, that he is making an effort to address the problems of local government. I also want to tell you, hon Minister, that you should listen to the opposition’s proposals in this whole process. You should listen when we come to you with proposals, because we are also acting in South Africa’s interest.
In 1998, from this very podium, I told the Minister, I think it was Sydney Mufamadi at the time, that local government is the bomb that will bring our country to ruin and that is exactly what happened. You should not wait until we have reached the stage where everything has fallen into disrepair before you start listening to the opposition. Then we will give rise to a better South Africa with a better dispensation at local government level, and I agree with the hon member of the DA that we cannot just meddle with the Constitution when it suits us. On the other hand, the DA proposed three amendments to the Constitution to implement floor crossing, so they should be the last to point a finger. I thank you. [Time expired.]]
Mrs C DUDLEY: Deputy Speaker, the ACDP appreciates the willingness of the hon Minister to face the harsh reality that many of South Africa’s 283 municipalities have been in a state of paralysis and dysfunction.
The commitment of the Minister and the department to providing hands-on support to provincial and local government will hopefully better position them to fulfil their functions and produce results. Service delivery is in a crisis and people’s patience has worn thin.
The ACDP is aware that extraordinary interventions will be necessary as public perception of local government is that it is incompetent, disorganised and riddled with corruption and maladministration.
Hon Minister, have all municipalities developed a service delivery and comprehensive infrastructure plan to address backlogs? Do they have a debt recovery plan? Has the proposed review of Salga taken place yet, in terms of its role and relevance? And what progress has been made in ensuring better communication with communities?
The ACDP supports the process outlined regarding the Green and White Papers on co-operative governance. Thank you.
Mrs I C DITSHETELO: Madam Deputy Speaker, we in the UCDP believe that the White Paper on Co-operative Governance relates more to our rural areas and that the people it relates to should be more informed of its contents.
We also feel that it would be important for them to give their input on the White Paper and that the Paper must be translated into more languages. Other than those suggestions, the UCDP supports the White Paper on Co- operative Governance. I thank you.
Mr R B BHOOLA: Madam Deputy Speaker, the leader of the MF played a very important role at Codessa. The provisions in the Constitution – the interim Constitution - about traditional affairs was hurriedly done.
The 1996 legislation was a haphazard affair. The 1996 legislation had many faults and the amendments in 2000 had a lot of deficiencies and discrepancies. So, everything was hurried.
But the 2003 White Paper has consolidated everything, and that is why we have new legislation which embraces everything and puts all differences in their true perspective.
The relationship between the House of Traditional Leaders and the national provincial level is indeed pertinent, and the relationship between national government and the traditional leaders is a must.
However, in KwaZulu-Natal, Zulus are divided, and the MF’s stance is that where Zulus are divided, the MF will not take any side and we will remain neutral. Thank you. [Interjections.]
Mr S L TSENOLI: Madam Deputy Speaker, good afternoon. The hon Bhoola lives on another planet. Such confusion emerging from him is quite surprising. I thought he understood things slightly better than what he is displaying these days. He needs some treatment, but I don’t know where. Comrade Minister, many years ago the ANC indicated its intention of building a nonracial, nonsexist, democratic and united country and society. So the first reference, in as far as we are concerned in the ANC, is that that unity will emerge and come from the state system operating in a coherent, united manner.
We hope that the contributions that are going to be made will be with a view to developing a coherent state system that answers the needs of the majority of the people in this country who are poor. That is why we will agree with you that perhaps we need a framework that will guide our actions, inside the state, and across the board, but especially giving flesh to the name of the department.
That is why we learned from others. Before Samora Machel died he complained bitterly - as part of the reconstruction and development of Mozambique - that the departments were not going together to communities to deal with people’s problems. As a result, communities were frustrated. And even as he was saying that – this was many years ago - it was not only in Mozambique where he felt they were experiencing such inabilities, unwillingness or problematic relationships amongst departments in working together to generate a coherent response to people’s needs.
I would like us to provide answers to those questions. Part of the problems we were confronting is precisely the incoherent way in which we interact with communities with regard to the stress of especially local government. So the White Paper, ultimately, on this matter of co-operation will speak, we hope, to those concerns in terms of giving meaning to collaboration and co-operation.
Before we start doing anything, let us ask each other who else is affected by what we are going to do. What are the consequences of going ahead without reference to them and what they are doing? How can they add value to what we are going to do? In that sense, I suspect we will be beginning to work towards achieving the goals we want to achieve of better collaboration and co-operation across the three spheres.
Hon Doman, you spoiled your good appreciation of the Minister’s intentions here by calling it a mistake when he goes with a Member of Parliament to a constituency he serves - after you said you appreciated his appreciation of these institutions of public representatives. We are public representatives, even outside of this Chamber. It is appropriate that even when Ministers go out in the constituencies, they interact with Members of Parliament who service those constituencies. It makes sense to me, and I would have thought it would be a logical extension in respect of your appreciation, though not for political expediency because you disagree with some of the things that Mr Fransman said – that he should not be included in the consultation process.
We appreciate, Mr Minister, your indication of your intention to initiate this process. One of the reasons why it is important to indicate your intention of developing this is that we are then in a position to go back to our constituencies, to the departments that we interact with, to raise issues that, in our opinion, will contribute to a meaningful debate, discussion and dialogue on what we think collaboration and co-operation are. This is the value of indicating your intention here, so that we can be better prepared to engage with the process.
The question that the hon Dudley asked is what you said earlier in the announcement on the work of the department that is in the process of being done. So these things are going to happen simultaneously, as I understand, in that the support that the municipalities are receiving towards the formulation of comprehensive infrastructure plans is work in progress. Therefore, it cannot be expected that municipalities must first sort this out and then later on think and reflect about the White Paper on collaboration.
In our opinion, it is correct that even as we take action, learn from that action, develop a process of giving that meaning in a framework that guides the work going forward, we think that basic stuff such as respect shown by bureaucrats, efficiency and so on go without saying. This is what Ministers and their leadership in the department do on a regular basis. Where there are failures, they must be attended to. But those cannot be used as a basis for denying the significance of a process to unleash a consultative process to invite Members of Parliament and organisations outside Parliament to contribute to the question of how best we can respond to collaboration on the ground.
What are the experiences that we have as MPs, as organisations of civil society, as departments on the problems of collaboration and co-operation, because they lie at the heart of ineffective delivery of resources that are limited? We will benefit, sir, I believe, from such co-operation that will emerge.
It is also appropriate in my opinion that this is the Fourth Parliament run by the ANC. Also, after 15 years it is appropriate that we review how we have done things in the past. We must learn from that past so that we do not repeat the mistakes of the past. We have repeated them often enough. Ons is nou moeg [We are now tired] of repeating those mistakes. It is appropriate that now we must provide some answers on paper that can continue to guide us going forward, whatever its colour is. Thank you very much, Minister. [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
SKILLS DEVELOPMENT WITHIN A SINGLE POST-SCHOOL EDUCATION AND TRAINING
SYSTEM
(Statement by Minister of Higher Education and Training) The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Madam Deputy Speaker, I am avoiding making a mistake and getting punished. Hon members, as you are all aware, the education and training landscape in government was reconfigured following the momentous April elections. Our dedicated Ministries of Basic Education and Higher Education and Training are now working to ensure that these two critical segments of our education system receive greater attention and dedicated focus from government.
The bringing together of higher education institutions, further education and training colleges, adult education and training and the skills development sector into a single Department of Higher Education and Training, provides a powerful basis for addressing education and training in an integrated way. Our department has the responsibility to develop the country’s education and training institutional capacity and resources into a coherent but diverse and differentiated post-school learning system, serving adults and youth within the framework of the Human Resource Development Strategy for South Africa, HRDS–SA.
While the Ministry of Higher Education and Training was created in April, we have only gained full responsibility for all assigned legislation from 1 November. So, in effect, our complete programme of action was grounded by legislative authority only from last week. We are now responsible for a range of institutions and public entities which were previously distributed across the former Department of Education and the Department of Labour. We are wasting no time, hence our making this statement in galvanising our skills development programme.
In a meeting with the National Skills Authority, NSA, on 30 October, we agreed that the NSA, which advises the Minister on skills development, needs to be strengthened in order to perform its expert advisory role. The NSA must have administrative, policy and research capacity to support its work. Alignment of the work of the NSA with the Human Resource Development Strategy for South Africa is a priority. The relationship between the NSA and other statutory bodies needs to be strengthened.
Following consultation with the National Skills Authority, I informed the public last week that I would be gazetting the extension of the National Skills Development Strategy II and the current Seta licence by one year from March 2010 to March 2011. I also announced that I have appointed the Director-General for Higher Education and Training, Ms Mary Metcalfe, as the interim chairperson of the National Skills Agency, NSA, during this important period of transition in order to strengthen the relationships between my department and the NSA. As I have already indicated, this is an interim arrangement until a new chairperson is appointed, hopefully soon.
Prior to the public announcement, I met all the chairpersons of the board of the Setas, as well as their CEOs and informed them of the way forward. It is my considered view, supported by the National Skills Authority, that this extension is important to ensure alignment of the National Skills Development Strategy with the Human Resources Development Strategy and to allow some deliberation on the way forward.
Current mechanisms contained in the National Skills Development Strategy II, which is the current one guiding the work of the Setas, will be emphasised in the service-level agreements between our department and the Setas for the 2010 financial year in order to focus on immediate priorities such as the Seta-FET college partnerships and capacity-building. Setas will continue with their current mandate and implement their 2010-11 service agreements as well as contribute to the new strategies to finalise the new National Skills Development Strategy.
These extensions will ensure both continuity and change. Service delivery will continue and be consolidated whilst the new Department of Higher Education and Training will take forward inclusive processes, with all social partners, to renew and refresh strategies, policy and institutions in order to strengthen the skills and human resource base of our country.
In all our consultation meetings, we agreed that we need a co-ordinated skills development strategy, informed by an overarching industrial strategy, based on clear sectoral industrial strategies, placing particular emphasis on scarce skills. This will require refocusing and possibly restructuring the Setas to be guided by this overarching objective, rather than the other way round.
We in the Department of Higher Education and Training are clear that we need to respond to the mandate and the vision of the President when he created this new department. There are important potential synergies which have not achieved the necessary momentum over the last 15 years, even though that was the original intention of the ANC pre-1994. As the ANC, we had said, prior to 1994, that we needed an integrated education and training system. This is what we are returning to now.
We therefore require a fundamental reform of government’s skills development strategy, as well as the respective roles and relationships between FET colleges, universities of technology, other universities, the National Skills Fund and the Setas. This requires that we think out of our boxes to develop an overarching, highly integrated and articulated system of higher education and training, but without, at the same time, mechanically collapsing into each other the distinctive roles, features, and contribution of each of the components of such a system.
One of the first things we need to do – all of us - is to re-skill. The skills sector needs to understand more about the formal institutions of education and vice versa. We all have now to better understand the different subsystems in order to forge co-operative links. Our human development planning strategies, which will be developed and adopted in meaningful and effective partnerships with social partners, will be informed by strategic information management systems and research for a post-school education and training system and the labour market.
Managing a single post-school education and training system that is comprised of FET colleges, the Setas and higher education institutions, adult education and training including the training of the unemployed, will indeed be a major challenge. We need a comprehensive management information system, which we intend developing and also to ensure that over time we are able to measure the extent to which learners migrate between the subsystems and progress successfully into and through the labour market.
This Management Information System also needs to be extended to the private education and training providers of further education and training and higher education. The recent Council for Higher Education report on the state of higher education in South Africa points out that our information on private further and higher education is inadequate and that we need to update it in order to work towards an integrated system of higher education and training.
To this end, the Department of Higher Education and Training commits itself to the establishment of these information systems through the commissioning of systematic monitoring and evaluation exercises and regular research reviews in each of the subsystems in partnership with other research and higher education institutions.
Allow me to turn to the further education and training college subsystem. The FET college subsystem has grown and changed over the last 15 years, and further changes are anticipated with the move of the colleges to a national function, thanks to the leadership of the past Minister of Education, Comrade Naledi Pandor. [Applause.] The goal is to increase the number of young people and adults accessing continuing education at these technical and vocational centres, in a way that supports an inclusive growth path.
We will consolidate the institutional base for FET colleges as we are prioritising these in partnership with the Skills Development System and improve responsiveness to the needs of the economy. This is very important because before the differential location of former FET colleges in the Department of Education and the location of the Skills Development Resources and Funding in the Department of Labour did not make it possible to build these synergies.
Programme offerings in the FET sector will be expanded, training partnerships with industry will be funded through Setas, partnerships with employers will be established, and a workplace programme for graduates of FET colleges will be set up. All these initiatives will make FET colleges more attractive and institutions of choice instead of being seen as a consolation prize for those who did not get into university. Quality interventions also include initiatives to improve management capacity, materials development, and the introduction of formal qualifications for lecturers.
We will also work closely with the National Board for Further Education and Training and consult those involved in this subsystem in reviewing the impact of some of the recent changes, particularly the changes in the management and governance structures, the development and implementation of new programmes, and the introduction of new norms and standards for funding. I hear the hon Ellis is making a noise because he needs to re- skill. He no longer understands these areas now. [Interjections.] The last time he spoke only about formal education in the then portfolio committee of 1994 to 1999.
Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Deputy Speaker, Mr Blade Nzimande is obviously missing me, because I haven’t said a word. [Laughter.] Not a word, Dr Blade Nzimande, sir.
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: No, I can hear your voice, hon Ellis. [Interjections.]
Mr M J ELLIS: I’ve never been more innocent in my life, Madam Deputy Speaker.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Minister, he is right. I was looking at him. He is innocent. It was the hon member next to him.
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: Thank you. I was just drawing his attention because he also made a very un-nuanced resolution about the fall of the Berlin Wall … [Laughter.] … and forgetting that this is 125th anniversary of that Berlin Conference which divided Africa and caused perpetual problems. So you can’t celebrate in a one-sided manner.
The National Board for Further Education and Training, NBFET, and the Ministry have agreed on an urgent national audit on individual institutional arrangements for governance and administration. We are working with stakeholders to secure sufficient support and stability to sustain these changes and to take forward new developments.
Briefly, on the skills subsystem, we are saying that despite the gains made to date in the area of skills development and training, there are a number of challenges we need to attend to. We must have improved co-ordination between the sector education and training authority system and the education and training institutions. We must address the negative perceptions about the Setas. We need to improve strategic utilisation of funds, in particular to minimise the cost of delivery of learnerships and the high amounts of unspent funds in terms of skills development funding.
In addition, we need to improve the alignment of industry needs and the provision of training and skills development, particularly the need to increase the supply of artisans and technicians. In this regard, we will engage with the state-owned enterprises, SOEs, Eskom permitting, the public sector, and other large employers with a view to get them more involved in training through apprenticeships, learnerships and internships. We also need to finalise the alignment with an overarching industrial policy in order to improve the effectiveness of skills development efforts.
There are widespread concerns about the Setas, some of which have previously been articulated in this House. While it is wrong to paint all the Setas with one brush, there is clearly unevenness in their performance. There is definitely a need for an intensive assessment of the Setas to ensure greater accountability, improved employment of resources, better management of funds, and streamlining and alignment of their operations in order that they fulfil their role as a central cog of our skills training and job-creation machinery.
With a reinvigorated and strengthened National Skills Authority, the NSA, we can ensure that the Seta structures are based on a more precise understanding of their role and the priorities they should follow; reflect an appropriate segmentation of the economy that is aligned with emerging industrial strategies; minimise capacity deficits at all levels, avoiding duplication; ensure that these Setas are financially sustainable; and build, at the same time, the public sector to play a leading role in skills development.
Part of this broad process of engagement will be a strategic planning session with the National Skills Authority which we are going to have in December to which we will invite the Council of Higher Education and other statutory bodies. My department has already begun to engage the National Skills Fund, the NSF. The intention is to urgently improve the operating systems and procedures so that it can better fulfil its mandate. This includes reviewing the process and criteria around the training lay-off scheme and reporting to Nedlac – the National Economic Development and Labour Council - so that any blockages in this fund are used timeously for their intended purpose. We are indeed disturbed because the information we have is that much as we have set aside R2,4 billion for the training lay- off scheme, only four companies thus far have taken this up, and it is important that we identify what the blockages are.
We will also be holding a strategic planning day for Setas next week, during which we want to forge a new way of working amongst them so that they can learn from each other as they explore ways in which our priorities can be taken forward urgently. The priorities that we have set for the Setas during the extension year 2010-11 will be to align with government strategic priorities and focus on immediate priorities, including the Seta- FET college partnerships, especially the provision of opportunities for work-based learning, particularly from students in FET colleges and universities of technology.
We will also soon be establishing the Qualifications Council for Trade and Occupations. I’m pleased to announce that I’m in the process of appointing a chairperson for this body, known as the QCTO, and we expect the board to immediately begin with its work of establishing a council. We will request the QCTO to work in close collaboration with other qualifications and quality assurance councils in the higher education and training system.
Madam Deputy Speaker, hon members and comrades, in closing I wish to commit my Ministry and department to working with energy and commitment towards realising these goals. We are also calling upon each member of this House, in his or her own way, to also make a contribution to this task of trying to drive a skills revolution in this country, so that, indeed, as two great thinkers once said, that the free development of each does indeed become the condition for the free development of all. Although the revolution has no copyright, those words were from Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels. Siyabonga kakhulu. [Thank you very much.] [Applause.]
Mr G G BOINAMO: Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you, Minister, for those good promises. We just hope that they will be met. Let me start by acknowledging the fact that the response before me was written by Dr James, presented by me with his approval.
A focus on skills development is overdue, as it brings - to cite Elizabeth Bibesco’s aphorism: “certainty to hope”. We cannot continue to see communities inhabit a world – whether by design, default or neglect – that fails to nurture the talents of people, particularly those who by virtue of poverty are starved of opportunities through no fault of their own.
The DA therefore supports the proposition that a skilled and educated nation is a prosperous one in material and spiritual terms. We are critical, though, of the government’s approach. We are aware that, as the United States of America discovered, the markets do not educate and skill a nation, but neither, as China discovered, does central planning in the style of the former Soviet Union.
Firstly, therefore, to skill South Africans requires a governance system that artfully combines local knowledge of - and practical support for - communities in need of education, and not one that comes from on high. Our position is to improve on existing governance arrangements instead of pursuing the inefficient and unnecessary folly of pulling everything to the centre.
Secondly, we propose a higher education system with multiple entry points at a diversity of institutions and, importantly, having multiple exit points with students having obtained excellent qualifications, for excellence, and not mediocrity, has a market.
We propose a system that starts with the further education and training colleges for technical, vocational, and professional training, including for teachers, nurses, agricultural extension workers and the police. Those who wish to continue their education can trade up into the second or third year of an undergraduate degree – some may go further to graduate level.
Finally, Setas are not a broken good design, but a wasteful design and should be abolished. They should be replaced by a modern apprenticeship system regulated with trade unions and employers, by industrial councils that certify quality of training undertaken at the FET colleges. A famous 17th century Frenchman once said: “Steadfastness of the wise is but the art of keeping the welcome human emotions of agitation locked in their hearts.” Thank you. [Applause.]
Ms N Y VUKUZA-LINDA: Madam Deputy Speaker, hon members, with the current changes sweeping across the education sector, one can only adopt a wait and see attitude in order to make an informed assessment of what the outcomes will be, with the hope that we one day will realise our dreams. The need for this swift intervention, Mr Minister, in the shortage of skills cannot be denied because we are indeed faced with a crisis in our country.
Let me state the obvious, if only to underscore a point: that it is not all skills that are in short supply; it is skills relevant to the economy that are much needed. There are in South Africa many people without jobs and many jobs without people and that is why the issue of relevant skills takes centre stage.
I am glad that the Minister has done a skills audit, albeit that I think it was too short a period, unless the Minister found the skills audit in place. I am also glad that the Minister has considered the human resource development plan amongst the tools that were used in coming up with the recommendations.
It is our considered view as Cope that general education is the baseline to everything that we want to achieve. The new provisions for skills development must never and can never replace the need for education. In fact, linking skills to education is the sustainable way.
It is clear in our minds that in responding to the skills shortage we need a mixed bag of interventions, that is crisis intervention, providing skills that are short now. We need short-term and long-term measures. We must be able to plan and provide for the skills of the economy, which will be required in the next 10 years and beyond.
We also need, Mr Minister, a mixed bag of offerings which has learnerships, trade education, apprenticeships, artisanships and other recognised forms of experiential exposure. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Hon Deputy Speaker, hon members, if I were not in this House I would use the expression: “Awu ushayile mfanakithi.” [You have done an excellent job, my brother.] [Applause.] But I can’t say that because it may be ruled unparliamentary. I must say, “hon Minister”. You said all the correct things but now the question is: What would then be separating me from you, from what you have said?
I think I know what separates me from you, hon Minister. It is this: it is implementation; it is implementation; it is implementation again. For instance, you talk of strategy I. I would have liked, Minister, to hear more on what fruits strategy I bore. I didn’t here that, and now you are coming to strategy II. I will just wait to see what fruits strategy II will bear. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Mrs C DUDLEY: Deputy Speaker, skills development has been identified as a significant factor in reducing poverty and accelerating long-term economic growth. It is critical for government to effectively address the issues which have plagued this sector.
A single post-school education and training system promises an integrated, efficient system that will benefit learners. The incorporation of skills development into education is an important step and welcomed by the ACDP. Clearly, this new Department of Higher Education and Training will need to extend agreements as a temporary and transitional arrangement to ensure maximum momentum as concerns about Setas will necessitate intensive assessment. The ACDP is cautiously optimistic that the commitment of the Minister of Higher Education and Training and the new department to skills development is a serious one and that it will, in fact, deliver results. Thank you.
Mr M L FRANSMAN: Hon Speaker and members, I wish to thank and commend the Minister, on behalf of the ruling ANC, for informing this House of the developments, the vision and intentions of the department on the way to better education for all.
These are all aimed at aiding our people and at developing everyone’s potential to the full, as was just stressed, and it is quite impressive, hon Minister, to note that, in fact, all political parties supported the direction taken. In fact, some of them quoted from the ANC manifesto, if you look at it.
In talking about the skills intervention and the approaches to it, I would suggest to the DA, though, that it would not be the most appropriate thing to look at a complete scrapping of the Seta, because what we are seeing is that a new department is emerging, with a Minister. The creation of an integrated approach, in fact, indicates to us that the Minister now has 12 months to review, to make proper assessments, to look at the critical gaps in the Seta formation and then to come forward with suggested approaches. Therefore, I think, we must all become involved in that debate. I also believe – as the committee we looked at it – that it was the best thing to not, in fact, reclassify for five years, because that in a sense would have tied up a new administration for five years with the existing skills setup.
Minister, we also want to suggest with regard to integration, especially at local government level, provincial government level and then with the national economic development initiatives – that the three spheres need to be closely drawn in in the strategic approaches linked to skills development. This is because what we picked up in our oversight of Giyani was that there was a mismatch between what economic opportunities there are in Giyani, the district in that environment, and the FET interventions that are there.
That brings me then to the FET colleges in particular. It’s heartening to hear the concern around the perceptions of FET colleges, because there are real, negative perceptions. Last week we had a meeting with Basic Education, and between the two committees we picked up that the FET throughput was quite low. This means, from some of the studies and analysis we have done, that teachers don’t necessarily understand the strength of FET colleges at times – though most of them do – but we are seeing people being sent to FET colleges that are not necessarily being sent appropriately.
So, there are perception issues at the level of teachers or educators at times, and we are asking the Minister of Higher Education and Training to work closely with the Minister of Basic Education to reflect on this.
With regard to management information systems, neither the National Student Financial Aid Scheme nor Higher Education SA currently knows where all the students that have graduated are. Also, they don’t know where the unemployed students or those that did not go through the system completely are. So we have asked that question.
I think what this management information system will do is to track where unemployed graduates are or where graduates actually are beyond their studies. This is so that we do not invest significant amounts of money in education, only to support, possibly, the health sector in Canada or the engineering sector in the UK.
Therefore, the link between the patriotic responsibilities of those institutions and the type of curriculum at FET colleges, as well as the curriculum at universities, should instil patriotism, pride, dignity and all of those elements. We believe that will support the retention strategy within South Africa.
The second last point I want to make is really around the issues of performance, governance and management. We totally agree about these issues. There are obviously sections to that. The Portfolio Committee on Labour recently dealt with the annual reports. What we have seen is that most of the Setas have unqualified audits, but we do know there is public judgment when it comes, for example, to some of those deliverables.
This is precisely because the audit will look at financial auditing and not necessarily at the performance assessments and the monitoring and the impact on communities. That is an area, I believe, we will be able to reflect on over the next 12 months.
In conclusion, as the ANC we are fully behind the Minister in his commitment to ensuring that the skills revolution is taking place in our country, that we need to get all spheres of society involved in this process, and we call on all political parties – and, more importantly, all community organisations and civic organisations – to participate in this debate. I thank you. [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
ANC CAUCUS OF JOHANNESBURG COUNCIL TAKING GOVERNMENT TO THE PEOPLE
(Member’s Statement)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY (ANC): Hon Deputy Speaker, the Johannesburg Council has responded favourably to the call of hon President Jacob Zuma to transform this people’s tribune into an activist parliament. In this regard we wish to congratulate in particular the chief whip of the council, Councillor Nonceba Molwele.
On 2 November 2009 the ANC in Johannesburg took its caucus to Soweto to interact with the people. The caucus included national and provincial public representatives. This oversight visit afforded the caucus an opportunity to engage with the local communities on issues of service delivery, as well as to report back on government development projects for the area such as city parks, city power, Pikitup, children’s libraries and recreational facilities.
The ANC views the undertaking by the Johannesburg ANC caucus as setting an example of an activist parliament which ensures, through its oversight and legislative role, that there is a speedy roll-out of basic services to the people. We also believe that the introduction of the doctrine of the separation of powers that Johannesburg is piloting will enhance oversight and we commend it to this House.
The Johannesburg caucus responded positively to the call by hon Kgalema Motlanthe, ANC Deputy President and the Leader of Government Business, for enhanced co-ordination, co-operation and mutual support within the legislative arm of the state. In particular, and most importantly, the Johannesburg caucus understands that our parliamentary system consists of the national, provincial and local spheres and that mutual support of the three spheres, and co-ordination and co-operation across the three spheres, enhance our capacity for oversight and delivery of quality services to all our people.
In conclusion, the interaction of the Johannesburg caucus with the people of Soweto demonstrated that many of the so-called service delivery protests could and should be arrested by getting national, provincial and local public representatives to work together through one-stop parliamentary constituency offices to address the needs of the people as collectives. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Deputy Speaker, may I ask whether you will be prepared to be as lenient with us in the time allocation as you were with the Chief Whip of the ANC?
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Let me say, to some extent I have been lenient right through. But this term, particularly, was confused completely by the Table. That is why I was asking, and I apologise for that.
RESIGNATION OF CHAIRMAN OF ESKOM
(Member’s Statement)
Dr S M VAN DYK (DA): Adjunkspeaker, die Eskom-saga is net weereens ’n bewys van die ANC se magshonger om in die ekonomie in te meng en die ekonomie te beheer. Die ANC gebruik nou ’n rassekwessie om sy eie belange bo die belange van Suid-Afrika en sy mense te bevorder, deur met ’n skaakspel mnr Maroga in sy posisie terug te plaas. Daardeur, met die vertrek van mnr Bobby Godsell, verwelkom die ANC mnr Maroga se terugkeer, en dit gaan Suid- Afrika baie meer kos as die R50 miljard wat mnr Maroga Suid-Afrika gekos het.
Adjunkspeaker, die ANC wil nou vir ons kom sê dat President Zuma nie in die proses ingemeng het nie. Maar die staat, as die alleenaandeelhouer in Eskom, het nie vir mnr Zuma ’n mandaat gegee om in te meng nie. En dit is die tweede grootste fout wat die ANC ten opsigte van Eskom gemaak het sedert mnr Mbeki Suid-Afrika om verskoning moes vra omdat die regering in 2001 nie die Witskrif van 1998 van die Departement van Mineraal- en Energiesake, wat hierdie krisis voorspel het, in berekening gebring het nie. Net so min het mnr Maroga hom in 2007 gesteur aan die waarskuwings oor die steenkoolkrisis wat Eskom tans ervaar.
Adjunkspeaker, die Minister moet aan hierdie Parlement kom verduidelik of mnr Zuma ingemeng het in die Eskom-saga en of die Minister die besluit van die raad beïnvloed het; of mnr Maroga net aangedui het dat hy gaan bedank, en of hy werklik bedank het en toe sy bedanking teruggetrek het.
Verder moet die Minister ook vir ons verduidelik of sy en President Zuma gebuig het voor druk van die Swart Bestuursforum, asook die ANC-jeugliga, en ons wil ook weet wat die inhoud is van die sterk bewoorde brief wat die Minister aan Eskom geskryf het, oor mnr Maroga, en laastens, hoe ’n raad van direkteure, wat mnr Maroga se bedanking aanvaar het, nou weer in die toekoms saam met mnr Maroga kan werk, want dit rym nie. Ek dank u. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans member’s statement follows.)
[Dr S M VAN DYK (DA): Deputy Speaker, the Eskom saga is once again proof of the ANC’s hunger for power by interfering in the economy, and to control it. The ANC is now using a racial issue to promote its own interests above that of South Africa and its people by making a chess move to reinstate Mr Maroga in his position. Hereby, with the departure of Mr Bobby Godsell, the ANC welcomes Mr Maroga’s return, and it is going to cost South Africa much more than the R50 billion that Mr Maroga cost South Africa.
Deputy Speaker, the ANC now wants to tell us that President Zuma did not interfere in this process. But government, as the sole shareholder in Eskom, did not give Mr Zuma a mandate to interfere. And this is the second biggest mistake the ANC has made with regard to Eskom since Mr Mbeki had to apologise to South Africa in 2001 for government’s failure to consider the 1998 White Paper of the Department of Minerals and Energy Affairs that predicted this crisis. In the same way Mr Maroga did not heed the warnings, in 2007, regarding the coal crisis that Eskom is currently facing.
Deputy Speaker, the Minister must explain to this Parliament whether Mr Zuma interfered in the Eskom saga and whether the Minister influenced the board’s decision, whether Mr Maroga just indicated his intention to resign or whether he actually resigned and then withdrew his resignation.
Furthermore, the Minister must also explain to us whether she and President Zuma succumbed to the pressure of the Black Management Forum, as well as the ANC Youth League, and we also want to know what the content is of the strongly worded letter that the Minister wrote to Eskom about Mr Maroga and, finally, how a board of directors, who accepted Mr Maroga’s resignation, will now be able to work with Mr Maroga in the future, because this is irreconcilable. I thank you. [Applause.]]
RESIGNATION OF BOBBY GODSELL AS CHAIRMAN OF ESKOM
(Member’s Statement)
Mr D A KGANARE (Cope): Deputy Speaker, overseas media have widely publicised the resignation of Bobby Godsell as chairman of Eskom. Analyst Adam Habib commented that the latest developments at Eskom were a complete disaster and that it was particularly worrying, as they served to put Eskom under the microscope. On top of that, the insistence by the ANC Youth League that Eskom CEO, Mr Maroga, had not resigned and that Godsell was a racist who wanted to get rid of the CEO, left an indelible impression of unacceptable interference by the governing party in the affairs of the parastatals. Investors have long memories about such matters. We have seen similar incidents at the SABC, Transnet, Athletics SA and the list goes on.
In the view of most observers it seems as if the board of Eskom was certainly overruled by a higher authority, possibly even by the President of the Republic. Economist Chris Hart asserted that the authority of the board has been undermined and that co-operate governance at Eskom was very badly affected as a result of the crisis. Not unsurprising, the racist slurs against Godsell are being rejected by the National Union of Mine Workers, which defended his nonracial credentials. The union also raised its concern about the apparent breeches of the principles of good governance at a state-owned enterprise.
Political intervention by government, which puts a board under duress to act differently from the way it seems appropriate, will hopelessly politicise these enterprises and precipitate their destruction. Eskom is on a slippery road and this government must assume a very large share of the blame. Cope regrets what happened at Eskom over the past few weeks and we particularly regret the loss of Godsell at Eskom.
CLEANING AND GREENING PROJECT
(Member’s Statement)
Dr Z LUYENGE (ANC): Deputy Speaker, the African National Congress supports initiatives geared at empowering and educating communities on environmental matters so as to enable it to act on environmental issues and be able to promote an environmental ethic. As such, the Minister of Water and Environmental Affairs, Buyelwa Sonjica, on Thursday 29 October 2009, launched a cleaning and greening pilot project in Mthata, King Sabata Dalindyebo.
The project forms part of the Eco Town pilot project, Buyisela, and will, among other things, focus on cleaning, greening, waste management and river rehabilitation, while, on the other hand, create employment opportunities and also supporting municipalities’ local economic development programmes.
It is envisioned that a pilot project will take place in each province and this will serve as the framework blueprint for other townships and villages to follow. The African National Congress, therefore, believes that environmental management must be transformed to promote the active participation of civil society as a whole. Ke a leboga. [Thank you.] [Applause.]
CONCERN OVER RISE IN PRICE OF AIRLINE TICKETS
(Member’s Statement)
Mr P F SMITH (IFP): Deputy Speaker, the IFP is concerned that the prices of airline tickets are going to rise dramatically next year. It appears that this is going to occur immediately before, during and after the World Cup, when hundreds of thousands of visitors are expected to visit us to enjoy what they believe will be our honest hospitality.
The notions of airlines capitalising on this high demand to double, triple or even quadruple prices is highly distasteful. If press reports indicating this scenario are to be believed, then something needs to be done to stop it. The IFP calls on government to apply itself to preventing this price collusion and blatant profiteering by airlines. We ask it also to commit itself to looking after the interests of consumers, rather than big businesses, including big businesses such as SAA, Mango and SA Express, in which it is a shareholder. Thank you.
RESIGNATION OF BOBBY GODSELL AS CHAIRMAN OF ESKOM
(Member’s Statement)
Mnr P J GROENEWALD (VF Plus): Adjunkspeaker, die bedanking van mnr Bobby Godsell, voorsitter van Eskom se raad, is ’n verkeerde besluit wat tot nadeel strek van Eskom en Suid-Afrikaanse elektrisiteitsverbruikers.
Mnr Godsell se rekord wys dat hy oor die nodige vaardighede en vermoëns beskik om te verseker dat Eskom uit die huidige krisis waarin die maatskappy is, kan kom. Sy bedanking gaan veroorsaak dat Suid-Afrika oor die langtermyn vir hierdie fout ’n baie hoë prys sal betaal. Dit gaan beslis daartoe lei dat beleggersvertroue in Suid-Afrika ’n laagtepunt sal bereik omdat die boodskap aan beleggers is dat Eskom op politieke beginsels en nie op besigheidsbeginsels bestuur word nie. Dit gaan groter werkverliese tot gevolg hê en dit is ’n duur prys vir Jacob Maroga, Julius Malema en die Black Management Forum se politieke inmenging.
In kontras met mnr Godsell se reputasie het mnr Jacob Maroga, die hoofuitvoerende beampte, deeglik bewys dat hy Eskom nie kan bestuur nie. Hy was verantwoordelik vir ’n verlies van ongeveer R50 miljard in die ekonomie. Indien ek korrek is dat mnr Godsell … (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[Mr P J GROENEWALD (FF Plus): Deputy Speaker, the resignation of Mr Bobby Godsell, chairperson of the board of directors of Eskom, is the wrong decision that will be to the detriment of Eskom and electricity consumers in South Africa.
Mr Godsell’s record shows that he has at his disposal the necessary skills and capabilities to ensure that Eskom is able to get out of the crisis that it finds itself in currently. In the long run his resignation is going to cost South Africa dearly. It will definitely lead to a situation where investors’ confidence in South Africa is going to reach a low point because the message to investors is that Eskom is run on political principles and not on business principles. It will lead to bigger job losses and it is a high price to pay for the political interference of Jacob Maroga, Julius Malema and the Black Management Forum.
In contrast to Mr Godsell’s reputation, Mr Jacob Maroga, the chief executive officer, clearly has proven that he is not capable of managing Eskom. He was responsible for a loss of nearly R50 billion to the economy. If I am correct that Mr Godsell …] The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, there is a point of order.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Madam Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: This is the third statement which deals with exactly the same set of facts. [Interjections.] Well, I am addressing Madam Deputy Speaker.
You can’t possibly entertain three statements which are substantially the same, drawn from the same sources as statements. [Interjections.] My submission, therefore, is that it is out of order when a statement has been made on a particular subject matter and another member comes with a substantively similar statement.
Dr C P MULDER: Hon Deputy Speaker, may I address you on the same point of order? In terms of the Rules there is no Rule that says you cannot do that – that’s the first point. The second point is that if three different statements deal with the same issue, it should be an indication to government of how serious the issue is. [Interjections.] In that regard, the question now remains: Will we get any reply from government that will also be indicative of what is happening? Thank you. [Applause.] The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Can we allow the member to continue?
Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Adjunkspeaker, ek wil vir die agb Minister sê die waarheid maak seer. [Gelag.]
Indien dit korrek is dat Godsell sy bedanking ingedien het na ’n vergadering met President Zuma, kan die afleiding gemaak word dat daar politieke druk op mnr Godsell was om te bedank. Met so ’n vergadering sou die President wys dat hy geen vertroue in sy Kabinetsminister vir Openbare Ondernemings het nie en beslis nie om die krisis te hanteer nie. Dit is dan ook duidelik dat President Zuma voor die druk van die Black Management Forum, die ANC-jeugliga en die metaalwerkersunie van Suid-Afrika geswig het.
Die VF Plus doen ’n beroep op die regering en die agb Minister om dadelik vir Jacob Maroga te ontslaan en ’n ander meer bevoegde hoofuitvoerende beampte aan te stel. Die werknemers van Eskom en die verbruikers van Suid- Afrika het geen vertroue in Maroga nie en ’n nuwe aanstelling kan poog om daardie vertroue te herstel. Dankie. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)
[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Deputy Speaker, I want to say to the hon Minister that the truth hurts. [Laughter.]
If it is true that Godsell tendered his resignation after a meeting with President Zuma, it can be inferred that there was political pressure on Mr Godsell to resign. Such a meeting would be proof that the President has no confidence in his Cabinet Minister of Public Enterprises, and certainly not in her ability to manage the crisis. It is also clear then that President Zuma gave in to pressure from the Black Management Forum, the ANC Youth League and the National Union of Metalworkers of South Africa, Numsa.
The FF Plus calls on the government and the hon Minister to relieve Jacob Maroga of his duties immediately and to appoint a more capable chief executive officer. The employees of Eskom and the consumers of South Africa have no confidence in Maroga, and a new appointment would be an attempt to restore that confidence. Thank you. [Applause.]]
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! The next speaker is an ANC member. But before I call her, I want to address the point of order that was raised by the hon Deputy Minister. I know at times when people choose to be repetitive about an issue, it is irritating. But there really is nothing preventing, law- wise, people from choosing to repeat what another person said, as long as it is not the same person saying the same thing. Can we move on.
HOME AFFAIRS–LUSIKISIKI COMMUNITY FORUM LAUNCHED
(Member’s Statement)
Mrs T M A GASEBONWE (ANC): Deputy Speaker, as a mass-based organisation that is rooted amongst the people, reaching into every sector of society and every corner of the land, the ANC has the capacity to get all of society working together to make change happen faster.
Continuing with our efforts of making a better life for all our citizens, the Minister of Home Affairs, Nkosazana Dlamini-Zuma, launched a joint Home Affairs-Lusikisiki Community Forum in the Eastern Cape on Monday, 2 November 2009. She also inspected facilities in the Home Affairs offices.
The forum will monitor and ensure the implementation of quality service delivery to the Lusikisiki community. This will be the second such monitoring forum in the country, after the department launched one in Umzimkhulu, KwaZulu-Natal, earlier this year.
The forum consists of several government officials and members of the community, including local chiefs, religious leaders and councillors. The launch of this forum took place within the context of an overall government effort to involve communities in the process of governance, under the theme, “Together, we can do more.”
The ANC will always remain in touch with our people and listen to their needs. Thank you. [Applause.]
HOME AFFAIRS PROCUREMENT SURVEY RESULTS STILL UNAVAILABLE
(Member’s Statement)
Ms H N MAKHUBA (IFP): Deputy Speaker, on 25 September 2008 the acting chief director of procurement and finance administration in the Department of Home Affairs issued a request to the department’s suppliers to complete a supplier-satisfaction assessment survey. One of the questions asked was how long it took to get through to the department, and included an answering option marked: “Failed completely”. The survey’s questions are on the department’s website. What is not on the website are the results of the survey, more than a year down the line.
Trying to obtain these results, the IFP called, starting with the office of the Deputy Director-General of Finance, to the chief financial officer’s number. However, there was no answer on the numbers we were given. We then decided to call the 0800 enquiries number, and we were given a switchboard number, but, unfortunately, that also rang unanswered.
If we were to answer the survey questions, we would be obliged to tick the box that says our attempts to get through to the department failed completely. We wonder how many suppliers feel the same way. How many gave up trying to even submit their survey, and where are the submitted results lying now? Unfortunately, despite the talk of a turnaround strategy at Home Affairs, it seems as if the situation in the department remains as dire as before. The only hope is in the diligent office of our new Minister, which we believe will bring about a change of attitude from department officials on issues of customer service. I thank you. [Applause.]
DEPARTMENT OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY CALL CENTRE LAUNCHED IN SOWETO
(Member’s Statement)
Ms F E KHUMALO (ANC): Madam Deputy Speaker, the Department of Trade and Industry launched an Investment Promotion and Facilitation Call Centre in Moroka, Soweto, on Friday, 16 October 2009. The Cheshire Home-based call centre is part of the new strategy on investment promotion and facilitation that seeks to improve the investment climate in the country and reduce the cost of doing business.
The 10-seater call centre will be staffed by people with disabilities. It will be a one-stop shop service for national and international investors to reduce administrative and regulatory barriers, as well as to facilitate a smooth entry into the South African market by foreign investors. The call centre will provide an environment conducive to improving our investment climate.
South Africa has recognised investment as a key element. We are trying to reach targets in productive activity, growth in employment, decreasing inequalities, tackling poverty and providing decent employment. The success of this three-year pilot project may lead to further expansion of this concept and adoption by government departments and the private sector across the country. The call centre will be operational from 30 November
-
I thank you. [Applause.]
STATEMENT BY MINISTER OF LABOUR ON WESTERN CAPE PREMIER (Member’s Statement)
Ms L D MAZIBUKO (DA): Madam Deputy Speaker, the hon Minister of Labour yesterday launched a personal tirade in the media against the Premier of the Western Cape, Helen Zille, in which he demonstrated a measure of envy about the quality and the quantity of services available to the people of this province.
The hon Minister even went so far as to say: “We cannot measure the progress of integrating our city by the number of water and sewerage connections made.”
It is understandable that the ANC might feel resentful about the fact that the Western Cape has in place some of the most progressive service delivery and antipoverty policies in the country. But, the ANC government’s election prospects for 2011 would be much better served if it focused on improving its own service delivery record, rather than attacking the good delivery record of the opposition.
The people across this country who are protesting because the ANC government has failed to deliver such basic services as water and sewerage connections want action from the government, not more empty rhetoric. I thank you. [Applause.]
FEASIBILITY STUDY: COEGA PROJECT
(Member’s Statement)
Mr L S NGONYAMA (Cope): Deputy Speaker, when, on 18 November 2004, Alcan announced a feasibility study for a new aluminium smelter in Coega, in partnership with the government and the IDC - the Industrial Development Corporation - the people of the Eastern Cape were excited about the economic prospects. Two years later, when it signed a 25-year power-supply contract with Eskom, people were even more excited as this was now a committed project that would be worth billions.
On 23 May 2007, in good faith, Alcan went as far as selecting a CEO to oversee the R20-billion project. But then there was a bombshell: Early in October, the company terminated its agreement with Eskom, because it could no longer guarantee power supply in the future. What the people of the Eastern Cape would like to know is: What happened to the task team that was set up to smooth out the problem of the power supply? This withdrawal by Alcan - a blue-chip company - is indeed a massive blow to the viability of Coega. It is also a bitter indictment of the government’s handling of the whole energy issue in our country. The Alcan project, which was meant to be the anchor for foreign direct investment, will send a negative signal to other companies.
Billions have already been already committed for this project. Government must, therefore, do an immediate cost-benefit analysis of the smelter project and advise Parliament as to what the best course of action is on this matter, going forward. We need a clear and candid response from the government, seeing that the situation in Eskom is becoming murkier and murkier. I thank you.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Thank you, hon member. Do you have a point of order, hon Minister?
The MINISTER OF HIGHER EDUCATION AND TRAINING: No, I just wanted to know from the hon member whether it is the people of the Eastern Cape who want a smelter or could the elephant consortium … [Interjections.] [Laughter.] … be having some interest in the aluminium sector.
The DEPUTY SPEAKER: The ANC – I am sure, hon Ngonyama – will answer you outside.
GRANT TO BOOST RURAL-BASED EDUCATION IN NORTH WEST
(Member’s Statement)
Mrs F F MUSHWANA (ANC): Hon Deputy Speaker, the ANC believes that education is a means of promoting good citizenship as well as of preparing our people for the needs of a modern economy and a democratic society. As a result of this commitment, the ANC views the R9 million grant awarded recently by Atlantic Philanthropies to the University of the Witwatersrand Centre for Rural-Based Education in North West as a major boost for the people of the province.
The North West department of health and social development indicated that the three-year grant will help to develop a district training centre. The grant will also enable the development of a pilot district education campus within the Lehurutshe-Zeerust Hospital Complex in the Ngaka Modiri Molema District.
The ANC appreciates the initiatives taken by Atlantic Philanthropies and will continue to work with educators, learners, parents, school governing bodies and other stakeholders to make education a priority for all. I thank you. [Applause.]
SHORT-LISTING PROCEDURE FOR NEW NATIONAL LOTTERY BOARD DONE FOLLOWED
(Member’s Statement)
Mr S J F MARAIS (DA): Chairperson, this House, on the request of Minister Davies, mandated the Portfolio Committee on Trade and Industry to short list and interview candidates for the National Lotteries Board and to make recommendations to the Minister for their appointment and specifically for the position of chairperson.
The process started off as proactive, fully inclusive and transparent, with a multiparty team involved in all the preparations: the setting up of the criteria to be followed during interviews, the short listing of candidates, etc.
The agreed list of 16 criteria was based on the content of the advertisement, the mandate from the National Lotteries Act, which is specifically to benefit the categories of sport, arts and culture and welfare, and to improve the very poor record of the current board in terms of which, amongst other things, reserves of more than R7 billion has been accumulated, while NGOs and other deserving organisations have had to close their doors owing to the lack of funds from the Lotto.
Sadly, the portfolio committee failed its first real test when it failed to propose a board on the merits of expertise, as per the requirements of the Act, to improve the distribution outcomes of the board and to have a board demographically representing our nation.
It became clear that the ANC members made their proposals not on the above criteria, but on criteria not provided for in the Act: on ANC affiliation and per the ANC caucus instructions. The committee process and objectives clearly enjoyed little or no priority in this.
This not only made a mockery of the whole process, but it also discredits the perceived competency of the new board to be appointed and the work of the committee. It also questions the justification of spending lots of money on flying the candidates to Cape Town and putting them in expensive hotels when the ANC had quite evidently already decided on the deployment of their cronies to the board.
This is wasteful expenditure at a time when we can least afford it. Does this enjoy the support of the Minister? [Time expired.]
ASGISA EASTERN CAPE PROJECT TO PROMOTE FOOD SECURITY
(Member’s Statement)
Mr S ABRAM (ANC): Madam Deputy Speaker, the ANC is committed to creating an environment that ensures that there is adequate food available for all, that we grow our own food and protect the poor communities from the rising prices of food and eradicate hunger.
Continuing with our commitment, Asgisa Eastern Cape has recently allocated R7 million for the construction of silos in the province as part of a cropping programme aimed at alleviating poverty in the rural areas.
Asgisa Eastern Cape is a provincial government initiative and is fast- tracking agriculture and agroprocessing, which also include livestock and forestry. The jobs to be created and the small business development are also significant benefits of the integrated cropping programme.
This year, Asgisa Eastern Cape expects to double its harvest as the number of hectares under cultivation has almost doubled from 6 700 to 12 000. The ANC will always promote food security as a means of lessening our dependence on food imports. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. [Applause.]
CONCERN OVER RISE IN PRICE OF AIRLINE TICKETS
DEPARTMENT OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY CALL CENTRE LAUNCHED IN SOWETO
FEASIBILITY STUDY: COEGA PROJECT
SHORT-LISTING PROCEDURE FOR NEW NATIONAL LOTTERY BOARD NOT DONE
(Minister’s Response)
The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: Deputy Speaker, I want to try to respond to four statements. First of all, regarding the hon Smith’s statement, I’ve heard these ideas that there’s going to be excessive pricing by airlines ahead of 2010. As a rumour, I don’t know whether that is correct or not, but I should just point out that there are two matters that could fall under the competition authorities.
First of all, if there was any collusion around price-setting, that would be matter. Secondly, abuse of dominant position to set unfair prices to the detriment of consumers and the country at large could also be something coming out of the purview of the competition authorities.
If – and I don’t know whether this is the case or not – it were to be that the kind of price-setting that the hon Smith described were to come to fruition, this would be something that we would expect the competition authorities to look at very closely and to apply the letter of the competition law.
Secondly, regarding the Soweto call centre, I’d just like to say that this is indeed a very exciting project. In fact, it’s a call centre that’s supposed to deal with major investment enquiries – large foreign investment enquiries.
It’s very significant that it was actually established in a facility in the Cheshire Home in Soweto. The decision that led to us doing this was that we were not just providing charity to people that were disabled, but we were actually recognising the ability of those people to carry out those tasks and the importance of the support facilities available in at Cheshire Home.
I think this is actually a model project. We were very happy to have representatives of the Department of Women, Children and People with Disabilities present as well. I think it’s a model that many other facilities of this sort could follow.
Thirdly, on the question of Alcan, I think the hon Ngonyama should be looking at what Pepi Silinga had to say about this – he is the CEO of Coega. He said that they were not fazed by this, and that long ago, they had departed from the model of looking for an anchor tenant, particularly an anchor tenant based on large energy use and which was not labour- creating projects such as that of aluminium smelters.
In fact, it was by mutual agreement that this project was suspended, basically because we don’t have the energy to support those kinds of projects that actually generate very little downstream activity and depend on large quantities of energy. Actually, Coega already has another big project, the petrol refinery, and is working on a number of other activities. So, I don’t think it’s a disaster, but it is also an indication that we can’t expect to be having these kinds of energy-absorbing projects of this nature in the future. I think the concept of industrial decentralisation belongs in the past, and is certainly not a current one. I certainly don’t think that it’s a disaster for the Eastern Cape or for Coega.
Regarding Mr Marais’ point on the lottery board, well, this is still in the hands of the committee and in the hands of Parliament. I have not received any communication as yet regarding the processes. I need to receive a report and the recommendations through the proper procedures of Parliament.
The hon member is welcome to make whatever representation he wants to at that point. But I think that he has just given us a series of allegations today that I know other members of the committee will not say is what actually happened in the committee. The fact of the matter, as I understand it, is that a number of candidates were interviewed, and I trust that the outcome will enable us to strengthen the lotteries board so that it can deliver on the mandate of making sure that there is actual delivery of lottery funds to good causes. Thank you very much. [Applause.]
RESIGNATION OF BOBBY GODSELL AS CHAIRMAN OF ESKOM
(Minister’s Response)
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF TRANSPORT: Deputy Speaker, I don’t want to dwell on the matters in general regarding Eskom. I’m sure that the Minister of Public Enterprises will be able to and should talk about it in due course. If members want to ask the President, they obviously have the ability to do that.
However, there is one aspect that definitely must be corrected here and now. The hon Kganare, who I don’t see in the House now, alleged that the ANC was involved in this matter and that our involvement as the ANC was caused by racialism.
This morning, speaking on behalf of the ANC, the secretary-general of the ANC, Gwede Mantashe, coming out of a national executive committee meeting of the ANC, condemned in very firm terms – in fact, he described it as the lowest level of irrationality, if I heard him correctly – any attempt to ascribe race to the problems involved in the board and in the executive of Eskom. [Interjections.]
He also specifically said – and it was not just the National Union of Mineworkers, but also the ANC through its Secretary-General who said - that we have no grounds whatsoever for regarding Bobby Godsell as a racist. And he rejected any attempt to do that.
Since I’m dealing with the hon Kganare, I’d also like to say that he suggested that blue lights should be made available to other youth leaders. Given the level of civil war in Cope’s youth section, I think that we could look very favourably, as government, at providing it with blue lights. [Applause.]
GRANT TO BOOST RURAL-BASED EDUCATION IN NORTH WEST
(Minister’s Response)
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF BASIC EDUCATION: Deputy Speaker, we share the sentiments expressed by the hon member in relation to the contribution by Atlantic Philanthropies, and we do so for the following reasons: One, that they are providing a facility for the training of educators in a rural area; two, that they recognise the importance of continual training in relation to teacher development for the benefit of our schools; and, three, that they recognise that education is a societal matter and that public- private partnerships are indeed necessary and most welcome in the context of the challenges that we face as a department.
So, we certainly would like to laud the contribution, particularly the location of the site at Lehurutshe, a rural and remote area, and by locating this site in this area, access to education is being provided not only to the learners, but to the educators themselves. Thank you very much.
Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Deputy Speaker, could I just address you on a particular issue? The DA and other opposition parties have raised before the importance of Ministers being here for statements. We’ve had here, this afternoon already, a situation arising in which three parties made a statement on the same subject, and this was raised by the hon Deputy Minister.
It is incredible that an issue of such importance is not addressed by the Minister herself here this afternoon. Again, I would make an appeal to you and to the Speaker to try to ensure that when statements do occur in the House, Ministers are present to answer them, particularly when there’s something as important as the Eskom matter is at the present time. Thank you. [Applause.]
The MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: Madam Deputy Speaker, if I could address you on behalf of my colleagues. The reason that so many of us are present here, this afternoon, is in response to approaches that the Leader of Government Business has addressed with Cabinet. I would think that the hon Minister that was referred to, who is not in the House at this moment, is addressing the very matter which so many parties have shown an interest in. But Cabinet colleagues are present here, and we are a collective and able to respond on the range of issues that have been addressed by hon members. [Applause.]
CONSIDERATION OF SECOND REPORT OF COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC ACCOUNTS ON REPORT OF AUDITOR-GENERAL ON PERFORMANCE AUDIT OF ENTITIES CONNECTED WITH GOVERNMENT AND DOING BUSINESS WITH NATIONAL AND PROVINCIAL DEPARTMENTS
Mr N T GODI: Deputy Speaker, the Auditor-General issued a report to Parliament in August 2008, which indicated that senior managers failed to declare their interests and that the majority of government employees did not have approval to perform remunerative work outside their employment in government.
The report of the Auditor-General highlighted, amongst other things, six key findings. The first is a lack of approval to perform remunerative work. Of the 2 319 government officials that had an interest in companies that did business with government departments, only 75 had permission. The business conducted with government by these employee-related entities for the 2005-06 and 2006-07 financial years amounted to R615 million.
The second finding highlighted excessive business with employee-related entities. In certain instances, employees of the departments had approval to perform other remunerative work, but did excessive business with government which could have had an impact on their ability to effectively perform their respective duties. The Auditor-General further found that 19 employees did business with national and provincial departments to the tune of R68 million.
With regard to the third finding, there was also the issue of collusive tendering processes. The Auditor-General also identified a total of 11 employees involved in collusive tendering and their activities amounted to R1,6 million.
Regarding the fourth finding, the report also dealt with conflicts of interest. Employees were involved in procurement processes in the departments and the entities in which they had an interest. These employees were appointed to deliver goods and services for government and their conflict-of-interest transactions amounted to R14,2 million.
In respect of the fifth finding, there was also a lack of declaration as well as misrepresentation in the standard bidding documents. Fifty-nine government employees with transactions amounting to R172 million were found to have misrepresented the disclosure in the tender documents by not declaring that they were related to companies and close corporations doing business with government.
The sixth finding was regarding deviation from the supply-chain management processes in the awarding of tenders and quotations.
When read in line with the findings of the Public Service Commission’s Report on financial disclosures by members of the senior management service for the 2007-08 financial year, the findings of the Auditor-General are an indication of a profound challenge of a conflict of interest in the Public Service.
The Public Service Commission, PSC, found that 210 senior management members did not disclose their interests in some companies or close corporations. Furthermore, the PSC reported that only 48% of the disclosure forms were submitted by senior management members to the PSC before the prescribed dates.
Whilst there are clear guidelines in terms of the Public Service regulations, Treasury regulations, the Public Finance Management Act and other applicable legislation regarding the prevention and the management of conflicts of interest, the following challenges remain significant in resolving this matter.
One, there is lack of compliance with legislation relating to financial disclosures; two, there is no proper monitoring of the legislation relating to financial disclosures, procurement, collusion among public servants and other practices that have led to the findings outlined by the Auditor- General; three, there are attitudinal reasons that mostly lead to a lack of compliance by senior management.
In line with the aforementioned provisions, we recommend that: One, national and provincial departments ensure that they develop effective monitoring and evaluation policies that will respond to any breaches in policy and deal with such cases immediately; two, in an event that some employees are found guilty, the respective national and provincial accounting officers must ensure that they recover the money acquired through these fraudulent means; three, the accounting officers of the relevant departments must take disciplinary action against designated employees who do not declare their interests in companies or CCs that did business with national departments; and, four, national departments that had employees performing remunerative work without approval investigate these instances and that the relevant accounting officers take immediate and appropriate disciplinary action against those that are found guilty of performing remunerative work without approval. I thank you.
Mr M E MBILI: Madam Deputy Chairperson of the House, the government programme of action till 2014, as derived from the ANC election manifesto, rightly identifies the intensification of the fight against crime and corruption as one of the key priorities. It is important to note, therefore, that the first report of Scopa, the Standing Committee on Public Accounts, to come before this House this session dealt with the shortcomings within the SA Police Service in their fight against crime. The second report of Scopa dealt with corruption within the Public Service generally.
Equally important to note is that both reports are based on performance, as opposed to compliance audits, which speak directly to the quality, the depth and the nature of service delivery to the public.
Too often we tend to delink oversight over the public purse from the day-to- day performance issues that impact on the interaction of ordinary South Africans within the Public Service.
In the 1992 “Ready to Govern” policy document of the ANC, the ANC commented on the Public Service thus: “The civil service should be impartial in its functioning and be accountable both to Parliament and to the broad community it serves.”
This report has its roots in the report issued by the Auditor-General to Parliament in January 2006, regarding, one, approval for government employees to perform other remunerative work; and, two, disclosure of financial interests by Ministers, Deputy Ministers and senior managers.
We all know that the report indicated that designated employees had failed to declare their interests and that the majority of government employees did not have approval to perform remunerative work outside their employment in government, as required by the relevant legislation and regulations. This then gave rise to a performance audit being concluded both nationally and provincially.
I shall briefly sketch out the main findings of the Auditor-General, whilst my colleague will delve deeper into some of the issues uncovered in the audit, suffice to say that it is not a pretty picture. We would be failing in our duty and responsibilities to the public if we were to shy away from raising these issues.
During the audit process, specific emphasis was placed on the performance of remunerative work; the declaration of registrable interests; the declaration of interests and standard bidding documents; deviation from supply-chain management; noncompliance with certain Treasury regulations and non-performance in terms of value-added tax legislation.
Scopa then heard and considered evidence on two occasions, from the directors-general of different departments, such as National Treasury; the Department of Public Service and Administration; the Department of Arts and Culture; the Department of Communications; the Department of Correctional Services - I’m happy the Minister is here – the Department of Labour; the Department of Police, the Department of Trade and Industry; and the list goes on.
Let me then sketch and point out the current situation as it stands. The regulatory framework used currently is applicable to all members of senior management services. That is where the crux of the problem lies. We don’t understand why it excludes all the members below the senior levels, that is below directors. That is where we think the bulk of the problem is, because directors-general will not tender for something while their subordinates will do the same. We have uncovered particularly in the Department of Correctional Services.
The chapter reads: Unless it is otherwise provided for in his or her condition of employment, every officer and employee shall place the whole office or her time at the disposal of the state. The question is: If a person is allowed, as is the case in the current situation, to have work because he is below the threshold of senior management, when is he going to have the time to devote all his time and dedication to do the work for the state? We are of the view that this is supposed to be corrected.
The results, therefore, of our deliberations is the resolution now before this House, which my Scopa colleagues will deliberate on. However, I wish to focus on a worrying development with far-reaching implications for every parliamentary committee. It transpired as a result of our public hearings.
The parliamentary system of government is premised on the idea that public representatives, as representatives of the electorate, perform oversight of the work of the executive and the Public Service. In this regard, the Deputy President, while delivering his keynote address at our Apac - Association of Public Accounts Committees - conference, captured the nature of this engagement when he said: Our Constitution specifically requires the legislatures to provide for active mechanisms of oversight and to ensure that executive organs of state in the national and provincial spheres of government are accountable to legislatures.
That is what we are saying: Ministers, you are accountable to Parliament. That is what the Constitution is saying. The Constitution is specific about the type of society it wants to create and the values of accountability, of responsiveness and of having an open society.
As an oversight mechanism, public accounts committees have a great responsibility and must contribute to legislatures fulfilling their mandate of overseeing executive actions, with special focus on financial management and administration.
The Auditor-General has raised the bar. We are going to carry out performance audits. We have to engage, one way or another. The legislative framework will then force us to carry out oversight, where we will have to call in the Ministers. This is what the current performance audit, done by the Auditor-General, is saying currently, unless stated otherwise.
Our democratic system of government is critically dependent on transparency and accountability. The main responsibility for this is in the hands of the South African legislatures. When legislatures oversee and scrutinise the actions of the executive, they have to enforce accountability on the part of government. The Constitution prescribes that members of the executive, as Madam Pandor has said, are collectively and individually accountable and must regularly provide comprehensive reports regarding matters related to the performance of functions under their control.
Therefore, the need for strong parliamentary oversight and scrutiny guidelines are an essential part of promoting good governance and combating corruption, and this is an internationally accepted fact.
What the Deputy President said in his statement with regard to public accounts committees is applicable to all parliamentary bodies. It therefore pains me that during one of our interactions with an official from Arts and Culture that there was a high level of ill discipline, as the official came to Parliament and literally lied. We cannot accept that.
We want to send out a strong message to the officials that lying to Parliament is a crime. I’m happy to report to this House that the COO, Chief Operating Officer, concerned, of Arts and Culture, has since been suspended and we will follow up this matter with keen interest. [Applause.]
We are saying that this Public Service does not have a place for people who do not take their work seriously. We will follow this matter to the letter. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr N D DU TOIT: Madam House Chairperson, hon members, conflicts of interest can extend beyond simply the term of one’s employment. The original arms deal joint investigation report of 2001 – eight years ago – states that Parliament should take urgent steps to ensure that high-ranking officials and Ministers are not allowed to be involved in contracts that are concluded with the state for a reasonable period after leaving office. Now is the time to take this recommendation and the 2006 concerns of the Auditor-General seriously and implement them.
Measures to combat conflicts of interest are urgently needed but cannot stop at the level of senior officials. They must also include Ministers, their spouses and families. In Scopa’s report before the House, it is recommended that the Public Service Commission, Cipro - Companies and Intellectual Property Registration Office - and the National Treasury databases should be integrated for available information. As far as Cipro is concerned, there is the looming Valor IT tender scandal. There are also serious flaws in the system that allows criminals to commit tax fraud. Furthermore, the National Intelligence Agency, Nia, has since 16 January of this year failed to do a security clearance on a chief information officer, as is required. Die Departement van Handel en Nywerheid het slegs riglyne vir die aanstelling van persone met ’n kriminele rekord, wat nou eers in die proses is om in beleid vervat te word. Maar alles is blykbaar onder beheer, want die Nasionale Intelligensie-agentskap gaan hierdie voornemende werknemers se rekords verifieër. Indien ’n mens na die Cipro-geval kyk, gaan Handel en Nywerheid vir ’n lang tyd vakante poste hê. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[The Department of Trade and Industry only has guide-lines for the appointment of persons with a criminal record, which is only now in the process of being formulated into policy. But apparently everything is under control, because the National Intelligence Agency is going to verify the records of these prospective employees. When one looks at the Cipro case, the Department of Trade and Industry is going to have vacant posts for a long time.]
To keep criminals out of public office, Nia will play a crucial role. The right person needs to be in charge of the agency. Since the latest appointment, the DA has made its view very clear on this matter. With all the shaking and shuffling on the highest level, I will not be surprised if we soon sing the national anthem to the tune of “Shake, shake, shake your booty”. Even the Treasury admits that they employed people with criminal records, although they stressed the point that this was not related to the type of work that was being performed. But, yet again, criminal records have to be verified by Nia. Hoe gaan die NIA al die personeel wat aangestel moet word of reeds werksaam is se kriminele status verifieër? Soos ons almal weet, het die agb President baie sterk standpunt ingeneem teen korrupsie, of hoe? Op ’n vraag aan die Presidensie deur die agb Leier van die Opposisie aangaande die meer as R9 miljoen se rekenaartoerusting, kantoortoerusting en ander masjinerie waarvoor geen stawende dokumentasie beskikbaar was vir die Ouditeur- generaal se oudit nie, antwoord die Presidensie soos volg: (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)
[How is the NIA going to verify the criminal status of all members of staff who have to be appointed or who are already employed? As we all know, the hon President has taken a very strong view against corruption, isn’t that so? To a question directed at the Presidency by the hon Leader of the Opposition regarding the more than R9 million worth of computer equipment, office equipment and other machinery, for which no supporting documentation were available for auditing by the Auditor-General, the Presidency responded as follows:]
Some of the records for assets procured prior to the year 2007-08 could not be obtained because there were no proper records kept. The officials that were responsible for the safekeeping of asset documents have left the Presidency. No action was taken against any officials as they are no longer working for the Presidency.
There you have it. The buck stops with the Presidency.
Met so ’n voorbeeld wat gestel word, is dit geen wonder dat ons ’n probleem in die Staatsdiens het nie. Dankie. [Applous.] [With such an example that has been set, it is no wonder that we have a problem in the Public Service. Thank you. [Applause.]]
Mr L RAMATLAKANE: House Chair and hon members, elected and appointed government officials who betray the people they serve through unethical, illegal and greedy pursuance of personal interests, gain or private success should be punished by double measures.
Those who steer public money into their own pockets commit a serious crime against the jobless and poor people who instead could have participated in the economy. We know that more than R615 million from 2005 to 2007 landed in private pockets. Some 30 officials gave themselves undue tenders in excess of R30 million. The fat cats became fatter.
High ethics are key to a corrupt-free society. But some people have no regard for the law or standards. This is more than misconduct or neglect of duty, but a violation. They get unfair advantages, compromise independence, and misuse positions, state facilities, time, employees and inside information for their gains. They stop at nothing and even engage in political influence or collusion. They treat our hard-earned tax money as their cash cow for the milking. They even regulate their own ventures.
As a rule, government employees should avoid conflicts of personal interest and public duty, whether nonprofitable or profitable. They must evade every appearance of conflicts of interest. To do paid private work while working for government is simply wrong. The report before the House is a shame for our country and an indictment of this government. It says that even Ministers, since 2006, did not declare their interests or get permission. Millions of rand went into the pockets of already paid officials.
Cope calls on all to root out corruption or undue enrichment and not condone it by inaction. How can we fight corruption when little happens to those who “Tata machance” and “Tata mamillion”? The Minister of Finance, in fact, said, and I quote: “Take strong action against those who feed selfishly off the state.” Cope says we must be alert and blow the whistle.
We must raise the levels of Public Service professionalism and the ethics for conducting business on or off duty. We must embark on a fresh campaign of integrity, clean governance, clean hands and clean conscience and report all deviations. All officials must comply. All employees guilty of this must be shown the door. I thank you. [Applause.]
Mr N SINGH: Chairperson, the hon colleagues who spoke before me have indicated that the first report was tabled by the Auditor-General in 2006 and that we had a new report that we considered in July 2008. We all know what the report indicated. It indicated that senior managers failed to declare their interests and so did certain Ministers.
Now the question to ask hon members is whether it is the duty of the Auditor-General to find these things out. Well, the answer, my friends, is not blowing in the wind. The answer lies with the fact that directors- general or heads of departments have failed in executing their own responsibilities to ensure that senior managers within their departments complete declarations of interests and everything else that is necessary. It also lies in the inability of the Department of Public Service and Administration and the Public Service Commission to have the same understanding of what remunerative work means. We hope that by the time we discuss this later on, they will know exactly what remunerative work means.
The sterling work of the Office of the Auditor-General has helped to identify many areas which need to be tightened up to ensure that there are continued investigations as to whether or not some of the transactions in which government employees who did business with government departments were fraudulent.
Members of Parliament have to disclose their interests, and this is a public document. Why should government officials’ interests not be declared publicly as well? They sit on procurement committees; we don’t. In municipalities, you find that the officials look at tenders, but don’t have to declare their interests.
When it comes to moonlighting - and the SAPS and the Health Ministers are not here – you find that many members of the SAPS and nurses are moonlighting. They work for government, for pension and everything else, but they go and work for private hospitals and security companies in the evenings. When are we going to put a stop to moonlighting?
We also need to ensure that those who are employed in state-owned enterprises declare their interests publicly. This is because state-owned enterprises seem to be becoming a cash cow for many people who either worked in government or have knowledge of what is happening in government. Thank you. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Mr T J BONHOMME: House Chair, Ministers, Deputy Ministers and colleagues, it is generally accepted that our Constitution guarantees the right for all citizens to make their livelihoods, so long as they do so legally. That constitutional imperative is not what is under consideration in this case. Essentially, what we are discussing today is the phenomenon of serving two masters simultaneously. Rightly or wrongly, the current framework allows our senior public servants to perform remunerative work outside official duties, with the proviso that they obtain approval and disclose their interests. This is informed by the non-negotiable principle that senior public officials should maintain the highest standards of professional ethics and that disclosure measures are aimed at preventing incidents of conflict before they occur. They also protect both senior officials and, more importantly, strengthen citizens’ trust in public institutions.
Paragraph 4.5.5 of the Explanatory Manual on the Code of Conduct for the Public Service, states that:
Employees are expected to place their undivided attention, time and skills at the disposal of the Public Service as employer. The nature and demands of the job in the Public Service are such that the interests of both the Public Service and the community may be prejudiced by a public servant undertaking remunerative work outside official duties. It is therefore mandatory to obtain prior approval to perform remunerative work outside official hours.
There is no ambiguity in the statement. So, let us consider how it matches up to reality as reflected in the Auditor-General’s performance audit. According to the report, 2 319 government officials had an interest in companies or CCs, close corporations, that did business with national and provincial government departments. Of those, only 75, that is 3%, had approval to perform paid work outside their official employment at the departments, whilst some departments were still determining their approval status when the report was finalised. The business contract with government by these employee-related entities for the 2005 until the 2007 financial years amounted to R615 million.
This is not only a case of an official in the Western Cape having interests in a company doing business with the Limpopo government. A total of 30 employees are identified as directors or members of companies or CCs doing business with the very same department where they are employed. It goes without saying that none of them had any approval for the work, which netted them R32 million for the period under review.
A department such as Correctional Services had four employees who transacted with the department, a contravention of the Correctional Services Act, to the tune of R1 037 000. This is not to single them out, but it is equally factual that the department has had qualified audits every year since 2001. Another person employed on a part-time basis at the then Department of Housing had interests in companies that did business with other national departments amounting to R17 million.
The Auditor-General identified a number of factors that militated against employees seeking approval. These are: One, the majority of national departments do have a system of control in place to manage the performance of other remunerative work by employees; two, the national departments do not have a database or register in place to monitor other paid work; three, designated employees were under the impression that the financial declaration forms submitted to national departments and the Public Service Commission were sufficient; and, four, the national departments rely on the integrity of employees to seek approval to perform outside paid work or declare their interests in companies or CCs. So this is rather a grim picture.
The committee recommends that national departments investigate instances of employees performing remunerative work without approval and that the relevant accounting officers take immediate and appropriate disciplinary action and report the outcomes of the investigations to Scopa.
All provincial heads of department should take immediate remedial action to henceforth ensure compliance with legislation by all staff, and that matters related to the difficulties in the implementation of legislation be addressed with the Department of Public Service and Administration.
The provincial public accounts committee should consider holding public hearings with respective provincial departments to monitor the actions taken against implicated employees by the respective provincial departments. The national and provincial departments should implement and actively monitor the systems of control to manage the performance of other remunerative work by employees.
The legal interpretation regarding what constitutes remunerative work must be speedily concluded by the relevant bodies, namely the Public Service Commission and the Department of Public Service and Administration, and be communicated widely in the Public Service.
Again, it is instructive to note that the report from the Auditor-General has hardly spurned the PSC to re-examine the framework governing outside paid work and financial disclosures. The committee was assured that baseline documents incorporating some of the Auditor-General’s recommendations would be published in the near future as they are currently in the work plan of the DPSA.
In conclusion, we, in the ANC, have realised the gravity of the situation. In this regard, I must refer to the statement after the first national executive committee meeting on 18 and 19 September 2009, which referred to declaration … I thank you, Madam. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Mrs M N MATLADI: Madam Chairperson of the House, the UCDP is seriously concerned about the R615 million that has been misused in departments dealing with their employees in business. This spells out the following: firstly, that the tender allocation system of the departments encourages fraudulent activities. It is a system that has to be revisited; not every section in every department should allocate tenders, but there should at least be a division that deals with this.
The second issue is that we realise that the deputy directors-general of departments are not even aware of what is happening. The report that we are debating today was issued in 2006, and they were called in in August 2009. Some of them were hearing about these resolutions for the first time. That is why I support my hon colleagues who say that Ministers have also to appear before Scopa in order to account, to know what is happening in their departments and to see how their deputy directors-general are failing the departments.
Another point is that the financial management system in many departments is still wanting. We wonder about the chief financial officer, if there is an internal auditor, if there is an audit committee in every department that is supposed to be working on these issues long before the Auditor- General picks them up.
Resolutions by Scopa in this House, which have been adopted, are not taken seriously by most of the departments. Thank you, hon Chair. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Mr R B BHOOLA: Hon Chairperson, let us not do shadow-boxing. The Auditor- General is correct: Too many civil servants and their spouses are involved in business, but what about politicians and what about councillors? Contracts have been given to political friends and party loyalists.
I can point out that since 1994, in KwaZulu-Natal, certain individuals have become stinking rich. They are getting electrical contracts, they have become suppliers; whereas before 1994 they were not known. What will help check civil servants and politicians is a special squad, within the Hawks, that can check for unaccounted-for enrichment and lifestyles, such as that from the evidence that has been led by KPMG in the Jackie Selebi case.
If you have an investigation for unaccounted-for enrichment and lifestyle in India, you are detained immediately, irrespective of your rank. By the way, for the benefit of the House, in KwaZulu-Natal, the Auditor-General had great praise for only one department, the department of sport and recreation, which was led by the MF leader, Mr A Rajbansi. Thank you. [Time expired.]
Dr H C VAN SCHALKWYK: Chairperson, the Auditor-General’s report on conflicts of interest in the Public Service has raised serious issues. One of his specific concerns was the approval to perform remunerative work.
In a comprehensive audit conducted, it was found that 2 319 government officials had an interest in companies or CCs that did business with national and provincial government departments. Only 75 officials, that is 3%, had approval to perform remunerative work outside their official employment at departments.
What is very annoying about this is that the Public Service Act of 1994 stipulates explicitly:
No officer or employee shall perform or engage himself or herself to perform remunerative work outside his or her employment in the Public Service, without permission granted by the relevant executing authority or an officer authorised by the said authority.
Clearly, these officials violated the law. Business conducted with government by these employee-related entities for the 2005 to 2007 financial years amounted to R615 million.
The situation gets even worse when the Public Service Commission states in its report: Overview of the Implementation of the Financial Framework, Financial year 2007-08, that the low level of compliance, that is 70% by directors-general and deputy directors-general in both national and provincial departments, is of great concern. Surely, better compliance levels should be expected at this level as these officials take the lead in decision-making within their departments.
It, therefore, makes sense that the Public Service Commission advises the relevant executive authorities, namely Ministers and MECs, to institute disciplinary action and to charge transgressing officials with misconduct. The Auditor-General echoes these sentiments.
Accountability forms a crucial part of good management and good governance. Therefore, there must be consequences for misconduct. Guilty public servants, at all levels, must even be fired. Revision of the ministerial handbook and the handbook for managers is often mentioned in the press, but we would like to have a date for the completion of this very necessary process.
The important question, however, is whether the executive has the political will and the political guts to take these crucial steps against corruption. The Minister for the Public Service and Administration is the only one who can fire a director-general, for instance. Will Minister Baloyi be willing to take such a step in order to prove that he is serious in combating widespread corruption in the Public Service? Is he willing to compel public servants, at all levels, to sign their key performance agreements?
In the Western Cape, the DA implemented some alterations to the Public Service handbook in order to develop a climate of ethics in the Public Service. Is the Minister willing to do the same? May I remind him that he said, in July this year, while addressing the Anticorruption Learning Network in Port Elizabeth, that government needed to fight and improve its efforts to tackle this serious problem of corruption in the Public Service?
Mr Baloyi can be assured that the DA will support him all the way in fighting this immense problem, because only in doing this will we be able to start reversing public dissatisfaction and disillusionment with the Public Service in our country. I thank you. [Time expired.] [Applause.]
Mrs M S MANGENA: Hon Speaker, I think I’ll continue where my colleagues in the committee left off. I will deal with one or two areas that the Auditor- General highlighted in the performance audit, that is noncompliance with both Treasury regulations and with value- added tax legislation.
Before I tackle the findings and the committee’s resolutions thereon, it’s important to remind the House what those Treasury regulations pertain to.
Firstly, TR 16A8 regulates compliance with ethical standards, read with practice note number SCM 4 of 2004. It prescribes that all employees and other role-players involved in supply chain management must adhere to the National Treasury’s code of conduct for supply chain management practitioners.
Secondly, TR 16A8.5 states that an official in the supply chain management unit who becomes aware of a breach or failure to comply with an aspect of the supply chain management system, must immediately report such to the accounting officer in writing.
Thirdly, TR 16A9.2 states that the accounting officer may disregard the bid of any bidder, if that bidder or any of its directors had abused the institution’s supply chain management system; had committed fraud or was guilty of any other improper conduct in relation to such a system, or had failed to perform on any previous contract.
Fourthly, practice note number SCM 5 of 2004 states in paragraph 3.1(b) that accounting officers should make provision for the training of at least the practitioners who are involved in the day-to-day operations of supply chain management.
I’m sure we all agree that all these regulations have noble intentions, and if implemented, will ensure that government tenders go to those most deserving. However, the Auditor-General found that though the National Treasury’s code of conduct must be adhered to, there’s no legal requirement for employees working in supply chain management to sign a code of conduct. In short, departments do not have signed codes of conduct, or, perhaps more likely, it would affect too many bank balances.
Of the 20 national departments, 17, that is 85%, indicated that officials had not been aware of any breach or failure to comply, while officials in two departments reported supply management system cases to the accounting officer. One department did not respond. Of the two reported, one indicated that no action had been taken, as required by TR 16A9.1(b).
Of the 20 departments, 19 departments, that is 95%, indicated that no bids were disregarded, as none of the bidders nor any of their directors had abused the system. One department did not respond, a case perhaps of “See no evil, hear no evil”. Equally worrisome, cases were identified where regional supply chain management employees had either not been trained, training had been cancelled or trained staff had not been retained.
The Auditor-General recommended, and the committee strongly agreed, that all provincial and national departments should ensure that supply chain management sign a code of conduct committing themselves to fair and ethical procurement practices. It is the least that our people expect, considering the handsome packages earned by senior public servants and the fact that they’re in the Public Service, not through compulsion, but to serve, and there’s nothing precluding them from joining private enterprises, if they so wish.
I now come to noncompliance with VAT legislation. It’s generally accepted that tax authorities are not to be trifled with, as anyone who’s ever received a letter of demand from Sars can attest. However, there seems to be a thriving industry in noncompliance when it comes to supplying goods and services to some government departments. Section 23(1) of VAT Act of 1991 states that all trading entities must register for VAT if taxable supplies or services rendered during a 12-month period amount to more than R300 000.
Section 59(1)(g) to (i) of the same Act states that any person who intentionally evades payment of tax under this Act, or fraudulently obtains or assists in obtaining a tax refund by another person who is not entitled to such, shall be guilty of an offence. This may include the issuing of any tax invoice, credit or debit note, charging tax where the supply of goods does not occur, and, lastly, the issuing of false documentation in the form of tax invoices, debit and credit notes and any other document falsely intended to claim tax.
With regard to companies doing business in excess of R300 000, but not registered for VAT, the Auditor-General reported that one company in KwaZulu-Natal was paid R423 203, and three companies were paid R1,6 million by the then Department of Minerals and Energy. An amount of R1,2 million was paid out by various departments to companies or CCs that were either registered but did not disclose the VAT amount or VAT number, or charged VAT when they were not registered for VAT.
In light of the above, the committee resolved the following. National and provincial departments should ensure that invoices comply with the VAT Act before they authorise payment. National and provincial departments should withhold payment until proof of registration is obtained from the company or CC, and that proof should first be verified with Sars before any payment is made.
In conclusion, I should mention that the Department of Public Service and Administration welcomed the report as it would assist to effect necessary reforms to the system of declaration of interests. The practical application of the regulatory framework is being reviewed, and Scopa, the Standing Committee on Public Accounts, hopes that plans to extend the system to nondesignated employees will soon become a reality. I thank you. [Applause.]
Debate concluded.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Deputy Speaker, I move:
That the Report be adopted.
Motion agreed to.
Report accordingly adopted.
CONSIDERATION OF REQUEST FOR APPROVAL BY PARLIAMENT OF DECLARATION OF
AMNESTY IN TERMS OF FIREARMS CONTROL ACT (ACT NO 60 OF 2000)
Mrs L S CHIKUNGA: Chairperson, hon members, regarding the approval by Parliament of the request by the Minister of Police, members would know that firearms are the most commonly used weapons in the commission of violent crimes. Recently released crime statistics show that for 87% of business robberies, 73% of house robberies and 57% of street robberies committed between April last year and March this year, firearms, particularly illegal firearms, were used.
The 2,1% increase in illegal possession of firearms and ammunition during 2008-09, is noted primarily as a result of the SA Police Service actions such as crime intelligence, roadblocks and searches, all point in one direction: the abundant availability of illegal firearms in our communities.
The call by the President, His Excellency the hon J G Zuma, to do everything possible to reduce the pool of firearms in the country is perfectly correct. This amnesty is therefore correct. It is informed by and responds to the President’s call. We are calling upon all citizens to heed the call by effectively making use of this amnesty period, which starts on 11 January 2010 until 11 April 2010, a period of three months.
Firstly, this amnesty will allow those who illegally possess firearms and do not wish to keep them to surrender them to members of the SA Police Service at their nearest police station. According to the Firearms Control Act, such a person may not be prosecuted for having been in possession of that firearm without an appropriate licence, permit or authorisation or for having been in unlawful possession of a firearm capable of discharging ammunition.
Secondly, the amnesty will allow a person who is illegally in possession of a firearm, but willing to keep it, to surrender it to members of the SA Police Service at their nearest police station and apply for a licence at that police station or any other police station. If the licence is granted, the firearm will then be returned to the licence holder.
In all the conditions stated above, the person’s details will be taken down by a member of the SAPS as the Portfolio Committee on Police is of the view that an anonymous amnesty process will be open to abuse, and the Minister agrees with the portfolio committee. Lessons learned in the 2005 amnesty, wherein about 98 000 firearms were recovered, will help South African police officers to improve the administration process this time around. It is in this spirit that we call upon everybody to maximally utilise this opportunity. The Portfolio Committee on Police, having considered the request by the Minister of Police, the hon Mthethwa, for approval by this House of the declaration of amnesty in terms of the Firearms Control Act, Act No 60 of 2000, recommends that the House, in terms of section 139(2)(a) of that Act, approve the said declaration as amended.
Sicela wonke amalungu akule Ndlu ashumayele leli vangeli lozwelo noma likashwele wokubuyiselwa kwezibhamu ezingekho emthethweni eziteshini zamaphoyisa, aqale ngathi, kuye komakhelwane kanye nezihlobo zethu. Siyabonga. [Ihlombe.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)
[We ask all the members of this House to spread the word of pardon or amnesty for those who take their unlicensed firearms to the police stations, starting with us, then our neighbours and our relatives. Thank you. [Applause.]]
There was no debate.
Question put: That the Declaration of Amnesty in terms of the Firearms Control Act (Act No 60 of 2000) be approved, subject to amendments.
Question agreed to.
Declaration of Amnesty in terms of the Firearms Control Act (Act No 60 of 2000) approved, subject to amendments.
CONSIDERATION OF SECOND REPORT OF JOINT RULES COMMITTEE, 2009 The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Deputy Speaker, I move:
That the Report be adopted.
Motion agreed to.
There was no debate.
Report accordingly adopted.
CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT ON OVERSIGHT VISIT TO SOUTH AFRICAN SOCIAL SECURITY AGENCY OFFICE, PAYPOINTS AND SERVICE AREAS IN THE WESTERN CAPE
There was no debate.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Deputy Speaker, I move:
That the Report be adopted.
Motion agreed to.
Report accordingly adopted.
The House adjourned at 18:16. ____
ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS
FRIDAY, 6 NOVEMBER 2009
ANNOUNCEMENTS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
The Speaker and the Chairperson
- Introduction of Bills
(1) The Minister of Communications
a) South African Postbank Bill [B 14 – 2009] (National Assembly –
proposed sec 75) [Explanatory summary of Bill and prior notice
of its introduction published in Government Gazette No 32673
of 6 November 2009.]
Introduction and referral to the Portfolio Committee on
Communications of the National Assembly, as well as referral to
the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for classification in terms
of Joint Rule 160.
In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the classification
of the Bill may be submitted to the JTM within three
parliamentary working days.
COMMITTEE REPORTS
National Assembly
The following item replaces item 1 under “Committee Reports” on page 1484 of the Announcements, Tablings and Committee Reports dated 5 November 2009:
- Report of the Portfolio Committee on Police on the Declaration of an Amnesty in terms of the Firearms Control Act, dated 3 November 2009:
The Portfolio Committee on Police, having considered the request for
approval by Parliament of the Declaration of an Amnesty in terms of the
Firearms Control Act, 2000 (Act No. 60 of 2000), recommends that the
House, in terms of section 139 (2) (a) of the Act, approve the said
Declaration subject to the following amendments:
1. That the words “No details of the person who hands in the
firearm will be taken down, if the person wishes to utilize the
anonymous process for amnesty“ in paragraph “(a)” of the Declaration
be deleted.
2. That the words “Proper audit processes must be put in place to
ensure the auditing of the records of all firearms, surrendered
anonymously in terms of this amnesty” in the second last paragraph
of the Declaration also be deleted.
The Committee is of the view that an anonymous amnesty process will be
open to abuse.
Report to be considered.
TUESDAY, 10 NOVEMBER 2009
ANNOUNCEMENTS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
The Speaker and the Chairperson
- Introduction of Bills
(1) The Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional
Development
a) Repeal of the Black Administration Act and Amendment of
Certain Laws Amendment Bill [B 15 – 2009] (National Assembly –
proposed sec 75) [Explanatory summary of Bill and prior notice
of its introduction published in Government Gazette No 32652
of 20 October 2009.]
Bill initiated by the Portfolio Committee on Justice and
Constitutional Development of the National Assembly, and
referred to the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for
classification in terms of Joint Rule 160.
In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the classification
of the Bills may be submitted to the JTM within three
parliamentary working days.
National Assembly
The Speaker
- Message from National Council of Provinces to National Assembly in respect of Bills passed by Council and returned to Assembly
(1) Bills amended by National Council of Provinces and returned for
concurrence on 10 November 2009:
(a) National House of Traditional Leaders Bill [B 56D – 2008]
(National Assembly – sec 76(1)).
(b) Traditional Leadership and Governance Framework Amendment
Bill [B 57D – 2008] (National Assembly – sec 76(1)).
The Bills have been referred to the Portfolio Committee on
Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs of the National
Assembly.
TABLINGS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
-
The Minister of Justice and Constitutional Development
(a) Report and Financial Statements of the President’s Fund for 2008- 2009, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2008-2009 [RP 254-2009].
(b) Report on the Government’s Progress on the Implementation of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission Recommendations for 2008-2009.
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The Minister of Finance
(a) South African Revenue Service (SARS) – Response to the Joint
Report of the Standing Committee on Finance and the Portfolio
Committee on Economic Development on Budget Vote 7 – National
Treasury (Including SARS) and the 2009/10 – 2011/12 Strategic
Plan of the South African Revenue Service.
(b) Government Notice No R. 975 published in Government Gazette No
32630 dated 09 October 2009: Amendment of Schedule No 1 (No
1/1/1386), in terms of the Customs and Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91
of 1964).
(c) Government Notice No R. 950 published in Government Gazette No
32616 dated 09 October 2009: Amendment of Rules (DAR/62), in terms
of the Customs and Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).
(d) Government Notice No R. 951 published in Government Gazette No
32616 dated 09 October 2009: Amendment of Schedule No 2 (No 2/320),
in terms of the Customs and Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).
(e) Government Notice No R. 952 published in Government Gazette No
32616 dated 09 October 2009: Amendment of Schedule No 4 (No 4/321),
in terms of the Customs and Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).
(f) Government Notice No R. 953 published in Government Gazette No
32616 dated 09 October 2009: Amendment of Schedule No 3 (No 3/649),
in terms of the Customs and Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).
(g) Government Notice No R. 941 published in Government Gazette No
32601 dated 02 October 2009: Amendment of Rules (DAR/60), in terms
of the Customs and Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).
(h) Government Notice No R. 943 published in Government Gazette No
32609 dated 29 September 2009: Amendment of Rules (DAR/61), in
terms of the Customs and Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).
(i) Government Notice No R. 932 published in Government Gazette No
32593 dated 23 September 2009: Amendment of Rules (DAR/59), in
terms of the Customs and Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).
National Assembly
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The Speaker
a) Letter from the Minister of Human Settlements dated 30 October 2009, to the Speaker of the National Assembly explaining the delay in the submission of the Annual Report of the National Home Builders Registration Council’s Annual Report for 2008-2009.
THE NATIONAL HOME BUILDERS REGISTRATION COUNCIL’S ANNUAL REPORT FOR 2008/09 FINANCIAL YEAR In terms of Section 55 (3) of the PFMA, public entities must within five months of the end of the financial year, submit annual reports on the activities of that public entity during the financial year, to the relevant Executive Authority for tabling in Parliament through the Accounting Officer of a department designated by the Executive Authority. Submission of Annual Reports for the 2008/09 financial year was expected on or before 31 August 2009. I have been informed that the office of the Auditor-General advised the National Home Builders Registration Council (NHBRC) on 20 August 2009 that it will only be able to complete the external audit at the end of September 2009. Therefore, NHBRC will only be able to finalise its Annual Report for submission by 29 October 2009. As a result, NHBRC was not in a position to comply with the PFMA in submitting its Annual Report to Parliament and the Department by 31 August 2009. signed TMG SEXWALE MINISTER OF HUMAN SETTLEMENTS
COMMITTEE REPORTS
National Assembly and National Council of Provinces
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