WEDNESDAY, 10 NOVEMBER 2009 __

          PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
                                ____

The Council met at 15:26.

The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – see col 000.

                      QUESTIONS FOR ORAL REPLY

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT

  Water pipeline from Democratic Republic of Congo to South Africa

1. Ms E C van Lingen (DA) asked the Deputy President:

   Whether, with reference to his reply to Question 5 on 17 September 2009, he has any details available in respect of the water pipeline from the Democratic Republic of Congo to South Africa to resolve the water shortages in the country; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? CO216E The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, hon members and hon E C van Lingen, in my reply to question 5 on 17 September this year, I indicated that piping water from neighbouring countries such as the Democratic Republic of Congo, DRC, may be one option that we could look at to address our water supply problems.

There are, however, no plans or discussions at this stage to pipe water from the DRC to South Africa. The government’s current strategy, the National Water Resources Strategy, NWRS, is to exploit our own resources by looking at options such as desalination, re-use of water, better management and use of current ground water, and to further our partnership with Lesotho in the Lesotho Highlands Water Project, LHWP. I thank you.

Ms E C VAN LINGEN: Chairperson and hon Deputy President, I was wondering if you actually meant to refer to the pipeline from the Congo, because it is very far. Having been on various tours all over South Africa as NCOP members, we’ve noticed that there are still a lot of rivers flowing full- bore into the sea, like in the eastern part of the Eastern Cape and KwaZulu- Natal.

We were wondering what plans there are for dams to be built on our own soil in the near future, rather than a pipeline from the Congo.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: That question is actually relevant to the Minister of Water and Environmental Affairs, but it’s all right. If the Deputy President would like to respond, I will allow that.

Remember, if you put questions to the President and the Deputy President, those questions must be of a national nature.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, as I have said, the NWRS is what guides us as a country, and that covers conservation of water, etc. There’s a whole build programme for dams in several areas without the possibility of endangering the ecology of the country. Thank you.

Particulars regarding Bi-National Commission comprising South Africa and Swaziland

1. Mr R A Lees (DA) asked the Deputy President:

   (1) Whether South Africa has a Bi-National Commission with Swaziland; if not, why not; if so, (a) who are the current SA members of this commission and (b) how was each of these members (i) selected and (ii) appointed;

   2) (a) what are the details of the current mandate given to the SA members of this commission and (b) what are the matters currently under discussion by this commission?

   CO217E

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, I would like to inform hon Lees that South Africa does not have a binational commission with Swaziland but has a Joint Bilateral Commission for Co-Operation, which is at ministerial level.

The bilateral commission was established in terms of an agreement between the two countries signed in 2004. The following departments are involved in the bilateral commission: International Relations and Co-operation; Home Affairs; Defence and Military Veterans; Higher Education and Training; Justice and Constitutional Development; Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries; Tourism; Trade and Industry; Public Works; Water and Environmental Affairs; the SAPS; and, lastly, the Department of Energy.

The selection of the departments involved is determined by the nature of the co-operation projects between the two countries. As provided for in the agreement establishing the joint commission, the mandate of the South African government departments participating in the joint commission is to promote economic and social development between South Africa and Swaziland, focusing on the jointly identified fields of health, science and technology, trade and investment, education, arts and culture, migration, agriculture, security and multilateral co-operation. I thank you.

Mr R A LEES: Chairperson, I would like to thank the hon Deputy President for answering my question. May I ask what the involvement of the KwaZulu- Natal legislature is in this joint bilateral commission that was established, and in terms of what legislation that joint bilateral was established, if not in terms of the standard binational commission to which I referred?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Hon Lees, I’m really not aware that the legislature in KwaZulu-Natal is in any way involved in this binational commission; as I said, it is at ministerial level, so I wouldn’t be able to shed any light on the involvement of the KwaZulu-Natal legislature. Thank you.

Mr D B FELDMAN: Chairperson, hon Deputy President, I would just like to know: Did we benefit from this bilateral since 1994? And I noticed that you didn’t mention anything about global warming. We do have an agreement with Swaziland as well. Thank you, sir.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, hon member, one of the departments that is involved is Water and Environmental Affairs, but in the fields that were jointly identified, obviously within the SADC region, there is co- ordination with regard to our positions on climate change - not so much global warming - particularly now in preparation for the impending Copenhagen Conference. There are exchanges at that level. Thank you.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: All right, I see your hand, hon member; I am just looking for other people.

Mr R A LEES: Chairperson, hon Deputy President, the relationship with Swaziland has always been a good one; however, there is a concern about democracy and I was wondering about the mandate. The mandate you said was to promote economic and social development. In that bilateral commission, is there any mandate at all to promote democracy in Swaziland?

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Which binational are you now talking about, Mr Lees? I just want to be clear because the Deputy President said he is not aware of the binational between KwaZulu-Natal and Swaziland. Which one are you talking about?

Mr R A LEES: Mr Chairperson, I am referring to the joint bilateral commission, which the Deputy mentioned, the ministerial one.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, the relations between sovereign countries are governed by principles of the recognition of each country’s sovereignty and the principle of noninterference in the domestic affairs of any country. The question that you are raising, therefore, which I am quite glad to respond to, is actually not a follow-up question in that it relates to the system of governance of Swaziland.

Development in Swaziland can only be influenced by the fact that we are neighbours and the fact that we have relations, that we have people-to- people relations and contact, that our people are able to move freely between the two countries and that over time, or in the fullness of time, if the citizens of Swaziland so desire they will no doubt find a way of crafting their constitution in a manner that permits the kind of democracy that we subscribe to.

At the moment it is a constitutional monarchy, and that is what we live with. Thank you.

Mr R A LEES: Chairperson, please do not rule me out of order. I just want to say that Swaziland has a very special place in my life, as I spent my honeymoon there many years ago. [Laughter.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: It will be good if you go back. Go spend another honeymoon there! [Laughter.]

    Involvement of traditional leaders in drafting of legislation

1. Prince M M M Zulu (IFP) asked the Deputy President:

   (1) Whether our democratic dispensation provides traditional leaders with sufficient powers or adequate opportunity to be involved in the drafting of legislation; if so, what are the relevant details; if not, (2) whether any steps will be taken to enhance the involvement of traditional leaders in our democracy; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what steps;

   (3) whether he will make a statement on the matter? CO232E

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, His Majesty, Prince M M M Zulu, I believe our democratic dispensation does provide traditional leaders with sufficient powers and opportunities to be involved in the drafting of legislation.

Traditional leaders, like any other citizens of South Africa, can draft legislation and request a Member of Parliament to table it as a Private Member’s Bill. Alternatively, a traditional leader can request the National House of Traditional Leaders or a provincial house to table a Bill for the relevant Minister or MEC to process.

The Traditional Leadership and Governance Framework Act goes further than this and makes it obligatory for any Bill that pertains to customary law or customs of traditional communities to be referred by the Secretary to Parliament to the National House of Traditional Leaders for comment. Thus, Parliament cannot pass a Bill dealing with customary law or traditional communities without the National House of Traditional Leaders having had the opportunity to make an input into the Bill.

I firmly believe that traditional leaders have been given an enhanced role in our democracy. As far as the law is concerned, traditional leaders have ex officio representation on municipal councils. They relate to provincial legislatures through provincial houses of traditional leaders and to the national government through the National House of Traditional Leaders. In addition, traditional leaders are consulted regularly by national, provincial and local government on a number of pertinent issues.

We are endeavouring to increase the capacity of traditional leaders through the National Programme of Support for the Institution of Traditional Leadership that was introduced in 2007. The roll-out of the capacity- building programme will commence before the end of this year and will continue throughout 2010. I thank you.

UMntwana M M M ZULU: Sihlalo wakuleNdlu, Phini likaMongameli wezwe, angikwazi ukukusho lokhu, ngikusho ngenxa yokungabi nalo ulwazi lokuthi kuhamba kanjani. Ngiyakubonga okushiwo yiPhini likaMongameli, njengendoda eyafundiswa ngogogo ukuhlonipha, kufuneka ngihlale ngikuhlonipha lokho.

Kodwa kuyiqiniso elimsulwa elingephikiswe phambi kukaNkulunkulu ukuthi yonke imithetho eshaywayo eqondene namaKhosi, ishaywa yithina osopolitiki. Akuwona amaKhosi okuhlalwa nawo phansi kuxoxiswane ukuthi kungasetshenzwa kanjani ndawonye. Ngisho ngoba nginolwazi lokuthi kuyenzeka. Kumanje imithetho ekhona ethinta ubukhosi, amakhosi akhulume ngezwi elilodwa onke. Kodwa Phini likaMongameli angiboni ukuthi thina njengosombusazwe sicishe sifike lapho amakhosi acabanga afike khona.

USIHLALO WOMKHANDLU KAZWELONKE WEZIFUNDAZWE: Nginethemba lokuthi uMntwana ubebeka umbono nje, ubengabuzi umbuzo wokulandelela odabeni. Kodwa ke ukuchaza kancane njengoSihlalo Womkhandlu Kazwelonke Wezifundazwe. Inqubo iyasho ukuthi omunye nomunye umthethosivivinywa oza kuleNdlu kufanele siwuthumele eziNdlini zamakhosi zonke, zezifundazwe kanye nale enkulu kazwelonke bakwazi ukuthi bahlabahlabe nabo, bese bebuyisela kithina sicubungule lokhu abakuhlabile, sithathe lokhu esikuthathayo, lokho nina eningakuthathi ningamakomidi ningakuthathi. Ihamba kanjalo inqubo. Kufuneka- ke uma ngabe asiyilandeli, siyilandelisise impela. Bengithi angikuchaze lokho, ngoba imigomo yethu isho njalo. Ngiyabonga. (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[Prince M M M ZULU: Hon Chairperson and hon Deputy President of the country, I cannot say this. Hence, I am only saying this because there seems to be a lack of knowledge on how this should be done. I appreciate what has been said by the Deputy President, since as a man who was taught respect by my grandmothers, I should always respect that.

But the simple truth is that it cannot be disputed before God that all these Bills that are being passed with regard to the chiefs are passed by us as politicians. The chiefs themselves are included in the discussions on how we can work together. I am saying this because I know that it is happening. With regard to the current legislation pertaining to chieftainship, all the chiefs spoke with one voice. But, hon Deputy President, I don’t think that as politicians we come close to the chiefs’ level of thinking.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I trust that the hon Prince was just making a statement, and not asking a follow-up question. I would just like to clarify a few things as the Chairperson of the NCOP.

The procedure states that each Bill that is brought to this House should be forwarded to all the Houses of Traditional Leaders, and then back to the NCOP so that they can go through it and make recommendations. It is then brought back to us for further deliberation on their recommendations. We then adopt whatever we need to adopt and the committee rejects whatever they want to reject. That is the procedure. If we are not following it, we need to follow it to the letter. I thought I should clarify this because our policies state that. Thank you.]

Means to minimise state expenditure relating to geographic distance between location of Executive and Parliament

1. Ms N D Ntwanambi (ANC) asked the Deputy President: Whether there is any consideration by the government to move Parliament outside the Western Cape or finding means to minimise state expenditure relating to the geographic distance between the location of the Executive in Pretoria and Parliament in the Western Cape; if not, what measures is the government putting in place to minimise expenditure in respect of (a)(i) air and (ii) ground travel costs, (b) accommodation and/or (c) housing costs; if so, (aa) what is the process thus far and (bb) what are the considerations? CO233E

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, hon Ntwanambi and hon members, as hon members should know, a task team has been established by Cabinet, comprising Ministers Gordhan, Chabane and Baloyi, to investigate and identify areas where wastage and inefficient spending by government can be reduced and to present these recommendations to Cabinet. This task team has very difficult terms of reference because it must propose cost-cutting measures or savings that will not impact negatively on the economy’s ability to grow and create jobs or on service delivery.

The main considerations for this cost-cutting exercise are: One, reprioritising; two, reducing wastage and inefficiency; three, eliminating corruption; and four, getting more value for each public rand spent. The task team has submitted a preliminary report to Cabinet but their work is continuing.

In general, unnecessary extras have been reduced. Specific actions and policies related to the items identified by the hon member, namely, air and ground travel, accommodation, housing, etc, will be identified in the context of this entire exercise. We are, for example, eliminating unnecessary catering; reducing official delegations to the bare minimum required; travel to Cape Town, except for top officials, and to the rest of South Africa is in economy class; and, where possible, officials seek accommodation in reasonably priced hotels.

Going forward, the task team has identified other longer-term saving possibilities, for example, revising the Ministerial handbook and other possibly wasteful and low-impact policies; and reprioritising expenditure to programmes that yield greater benefits.

The task team will continue to scrutinise departmental budgets with the aim of identifying and eliminating wastage, leakages and corruption, including the type of corruption that makes government pay more than they should for goods and services. To effect this, an interdepartmental working group has been established to strengthen compliance with the Public Finance Management Act, PFMA, as well as preventing fraud and corruption in the procurement process. There will be no sacred cows. If we need to look at the location of Parliament, we will certainly look at that as well. I thank you.

Mr S D MONTSITSI: Chairperson, I would like to know if the hon Deputy President would agree with me, firstly, that Gauteng is the neighbour to almost seven provinces; secondly, that if Parliament were to be relocated to Gauteng there would be a reduction in wastage that would lead to cost- cutting; and thirdly, the Houses of Parliament would be much closer to that of the executive and, as a result, there would be enormous savings of resources to the fiscus for delivery.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I’m not too sure whether the question has got anything to do with Parliament moving to Gauteng. I think you’ve been taking a very big chance. [Laughter.] Deputy President, I don’t think that’s a follow-up question, but my general thinking is that I should not deprive the executive of an opportunity to answer if they wish to do so.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, it really sounds like a lobby for Gauteng. [Laughter.] Thank you.

Mr T HARRIS: Chair, Deputy President, I would just like to ask the Deputy President whether the scope of the task team which has the task of rooting out wasteful and inefficient expenditure will extend to the R3,6 million spent per year by the government on security for the ANC Youth League president, and the R50 million spent so far this year on flashy cars for Ministers.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I am also not too sure whether or not that really is a follow-up question, Mr Harris. The general question is about the task team investigating wasteful expenditure. I don’t know why you should get into the specifics.

Mr T HARRIS: I’m asking about the specific scope of the task team’s work.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, as I said, there will be no sacred cows. The intention, the terms of reference, is that they should look at the whole range of wastage and leakages arising from procurement matters right through to the provisions of the Ministerial handbook with regard to benefits of public office bearers. So it will cover the whole spectrum. Thank you.

Mr R A LEES: Chairperson, hon Deputy President, forgive me if you have already answered this question, but we are talking about current expenditure. Does the mandate of this commission – I think you called it a commission, forgive me if I’ve got that wrong too – include the capital costs of a possible relocation to a province like KwaZulu-Natal, which would probably be the best one? [Laughter.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No, that’s not a follow-up question. Is there any other follow-up question?

Mr Z MLENZANA: Chairperson, my follow-up question is whether or not the task team would consider the constitutional imperatives of the separation of powers of the executive, the judiciary and the legislature. Also, will the history and/or heritage be considered when dealing with this matter?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Which matter specifically? I didn’t get the specifics of the question. I don’t know whether it relates to the location of Parliament or not.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Are you repeating the question about the location of Parliament again? But I have ruled that out. If you are referring to that, I’m ruling that out. Can we have the last follow-up question on this matter none? We proceed to Question 11, put by hon Ntwanambi to the Deputy President.

Reconsideration of number of members of NCOP and provincial legislatures

1. Ms N D Ntwanambi (ANC) asked the Deputy President:

   (1) Whether the government or any structure of government is currently holding discussions to reconsider the number of members of the National Council of Provinces, NCOP, or any provincial legislature with the possibility of increasing them; if so, what are the relevant details; if not (2) whether, in light of the renewed emphasis on enhancing governance in the provinces, particularly at the local government level, the government will consider proposals to enhance the role and number of members of the NCOP and/or provincial legislatures; if not, why not, if so, what are the relevant details? CO234E

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson and hon members, there is no discussion by government to reconsider the number of members of the NCOP or any provincial legislature with a view to increasing the number of members. A discussion of that kind will have to involve various institutions of state beyond government and will also have to involve the broader society. Parliament in general and the NCOP in particular will have to play a leading role in such a discussion.

Government is currently finalising a policy review of provincial and local government. While Cabinet has not yet received a formal report on this work, the review is expected to reflect on key governance lessons of the past 15 years as they relate to the role and performance of provincial and local government and the implications of these lessons.

It is quite possible that issues related to the role and size of provincial legislatures may emerge from the review that may indeed have an impact on the NCOP. However, this policy review will need to be discussed thoroughly by Parliament itself. I thank you.

Position regarding government officials and/or public servants having
            companies building government-provided houses

1. Ms M C Dikgale (ANC) asked the Deputy President:

   (1) Whether the government has information regarding government officials and/or public servants who have companies that are currently building government-provided houses for communities; if so,

   (2) whether those government officials and/or public servants were all authorised by the government to build the houses; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, how many of those government officials and/or public servants are employed in the national and provincial departments responsible for Human Settlements;

   (3) whether he will consider requesting the relevant Members of the Executive Councils, MECs, or the Minister to launch an investigation into the matter and forward a report to the NCOP; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? CO235E

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, hon M C Dikgale and hon members, evidence continues to emerge implicating officials who illegally benefit from the government’s housing programme. In the main, two forms of illegality have been detected:

Firstly, we have officials who are benefiting from procurement or tender processes. These officials either fail to declare their interests in companies bidding for government work or they, in fact, influence the outcomes of procurement processes by favouring companies in which they have a direct interest or companies that benefit their family or friends.

There are also reported instances of moonlighting, which is illegal if permission to do remunerative work outside of government has not been requested and granted by the relevant accounting officer.

The second category of illegality manifests itself when government officials illegally take ownership of government houses meant for the underprivileged. Recent statistics provided by the Special Investigations Unit, SIU, in the Department of Human Settlements shows that more than 800 government employees who have illegally benefited from the provision of government houses have been successfully prosecuted, leading to the recovery of approximately R20 million.

Close to a thousand cases are currently going through disciplinary processes. At local government level, about 123 municipal employees have been successfully prosecuted, leading to the recovery of more than R3 million.

This demonstrates that there are hundreds of public officials who illegally benefit from the housing programme.

The Department of Human Settlements currently has additional evidence on the provision of government houses that requires further investigation. Thus it has launched a national housing audit to examine, review and analyse the chronic problems in the delivery of houses. Included in what the audit must achieve is the facilitation of criminal action; the institution of civil action; and the naming and shaming of people, both inside and outside government, who are illegally benefiting from the provision of government houses.

More importantly, this initiative will help government to uncover the extent to which companies owned by government officials and employees have illegally benefited from the provision of government houses.

Our position is very clear: corruption, irrespective of who commits it, will not be tolerated. We want to reiterate that nobody will be spared if found guilty of an offence that necessitates instituting criminal or civil action. I thank you. Mr S H PLAATJIE: Chairperson, I want to ask the Deputy President whether there are any national norms and standards that prohibit public servants who have companies from tendering in government projects. If so, what are the consequences for deviation?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, I missed the last part of the question. Could the hon member please restate it?

Mr S H PLAATJIE: The last part of the question deals with the consequences for deviation. If there are norms and standards that prohibit public servants who have companies from tendering in government projects, what are the consequences for those public servants who do not abide by such norms and standards?

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, at the moment there is no legislation which debars public servants from participating in the tender process, other than the Provincial Finance Management Act. At local government level, the Municipal Finance Management Act directs municipalities to craft regulations that would debar councillors and their spouses from tendering or conducting any form of business or trade with that particular municipality.

Unfortunately, this is one of the occasions where a good intention has not been actualised because the mechanism to follow through on it is not in place. Many of the municipalities have not actually come up with such regulations. Of course, in practice, nothing stops councillors from one municipality who have companies from directing their own companies to tender for contracts with another municipality in another province. These are reciprocated, as it were. It is these insidious activities that the review would also look at, to see how we can ensure that we stamp out this practice of insider trading, because that is essentially what it is.

It is of course, by law, an offence to tamper with tender processes. If it is found that an official who stands to benefit, or whose relatives stand to benefit, tampered with tender processes, charges can be preferred against such a person and, once convicted, their assets can be impounded. So those would be the consequences.

Mr D B FELDMAN: Chairperson, I refer to a communiqué from the Minister for the Public Service and Administration which states that they are currently looking into having spouses of public officials declaring their assets as well. Is this process still ongoing or is there an outcome already?

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon member, is the relevant Minister not maybe better placed to answer that question? On the other hand, hon Deputy President, if you are prepared to answer the question, please do go ahead.

The DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Chairperson, at the moment I am not in a position to give a correct reply to that question.

See also QUESTIONS AND REPLIES.

                       UNPARLIAMENTARY REMARK

                              (Ruling)

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Just before we start our debate, I would like to make a ruling on a matter that I did promise I would look at. Hon members, I would like to make a ruling on a point of order raised by hon Watson against a statement alleged to have been made by hon Ntwanambi during our plenary on Thursday, 29 October 2009.

The hon member raised a point of order as to whether it was parliamentary for a member to stand at the podium and accuse “the Premier of our province”, meaning the Premier of the Western Cape, who is an hon member, of being a racist.

I indicated that I would study the Hansard records and make a ruling. In perusing the Hansard records, I did not come across a statement where reference was made to the effect that the hon Premier was a racist. However, I came across the following statement – this is what Ms Ntwanambi said: She has really planted racism in our country.

Even though robust debates are encouraged in the House, however, in keeping with the decorum of the House, which requires us to conduct ourselves in a manner befitting of the hon office we hold as members of Parliament, I would like to make a ruling that the said statement should not be encouraged. Therefore, I rule that the hon member withdraw the statement. Hon Ntwanambi?

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Thank you, Chair. I withdraw it.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Hon members, we should start with the debate on the next Order. The Minister has not arrived yet. I shall ask the direction of the House. I think we could continue with the second speaker, that is, the chair of the committee, if you agree. Are we agreed? Then the Minister can, when he comes, take the platform. That is merely to save time. I don’t know how long it will take the Minister to come to the House. Hon Bloem?

Mr D V BLOEM: I don’t have a problem, Chairperson, but is it not proper for the Minister to introduce the said debate, and then the members follow on after that? I am not against the ruling, but I am asking whether it is not proper procedure for that to happen?

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: It is proper. That is why I am asking the House to give me permission as the Chair. If you say don’t do it, let’s stop and break for five minutes, I will do it.

Mr J J GUNDA: Hon Chair …

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: By the way, the Minister is in the NA, dealing with another matter. That is why I am asking for this permission.

Mr J J GUNDA: Hon Chair, I would like us to break for five minutes and wait for the Minister, then we can continue. Thank you.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Are we agreed? If you are not agreeing, I am going to make a ruling. But I wanted to give you a chance.

Mr D V BLOEM: Chairperson, no, let’s proceed with the debate, seeing that the Minister is busy in the other House. Let us proceed with debate.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: OK, let’s break for five minutes and come back.

Business suspended at 16:12 and resumed at 16:18.

             NATIONAL HOUSE OF TRADITIONAL LEADERS BILL
   TRADITIONAL LEADERSHIP AND GOVERNANCE FRAMEWORK AMENDMENT BILL

           (Consideration of Bills and of Reports thereon)

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, you are aware that we have taken a five-minute break in terms of my decision to allow the Minister time to arrive.

Minister, may I request in future that your department lets us know when you will be late so that we can make arrangements. They let us know just now. We did not receive prior notice that the Minister was in the other House.

The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces, before we enter into a discussion, I should like to apologise for the miscommunication and say that we thought that the message had been conveyed.

We will then clean house and, at the same time, we must take it as a valuable lesson that we have learned so that in future we are able to ensure that these activities don’t happen.

We are dealing with the subject matter around co-operative governance, as well as developing a White Paper on co-operative governance in South Africa. Now, we are very excited, Mr Chairperson, and also members of the House, that we are offered this opportunity of coming back home. It is always nice when you come back home, because it shows that when we left this home, we didn’t leave badly. When we left this home, we were given blessings that said, “Go and represent us with aplomb, as the product of this august House”.

This institution has played a pivotal role in shaping me, as a person, in understanding the national body politic in South Africa. We will always feel very good about it; and I must say that it was taken as a given that when you are in the NCOP, people don’t go to be part of the executive, because you are in the House that represents the interests of provinces. In September last year that myth was debunked, when a person went from here straight to the executive.

The lessons that must be learned here are the lessons that say nothing is impossible in life. That is the first lesson. The second lesson is the lesson that says the sky is the limit, if people work hard. The third lesson that I would think has to be learned is that the leadership is watching us with hawk eyes, as if we are here in a theatre, and will always deploy those who they think are befitting of being given that responsibility.

As cadres here, we think that we must be able to emulate that. We must be able to ensure that that is the norm going forward, that it happens and doesn’t just end at a certain time. Having said that, as a way of repaying this important House – this is what is called payback time – we will spare no effort or energy.

We will look at the situation where the section 76 Bills must be introduced in the NCOP. That will give you time to ensure that you can consult properly without pressure, so that when there are issues, they are able to go to the other House, once they have been deliberated and discussed here.

We are solemnly pledging that we will make sure that we engage the powers that be, the leadership, to ensure that that approach is followed as a norm and a practice, going forward. We hope that we will be able to achieve that in our lifetime.

Hon members, let’s come back to the subject matter of the day, which is the issue around the institution of traditional leadership. We believe, from our side, that this institution played a pivotal role in the lives of our people. It forms the bedrock of our young democracy. It is an institution that, in particular, services the rural communities.

In that respect, we believe that the institution was at the forefront in the wars of dispossession and became highly instrumental in liberating our people, led by the oldest revolutionary organisation, not only in South Africa or Africa but the world over.

It became a spear that pierced through a colonialism of a special type and was able to ensure that it dealt a serious blow to the apartheid system and its obnoxious laws. It became a shield that protected the working class and the peasants - Africans, in particular, and blacks in general.

Therefore, traditional leaders were and still are an important motivating force in our struggle. It is in this context that the democratic breakthrough of 1994 came. It came as a result of the contribution that was made by the institution of traditional leadership.

It is not an accident of history that we have included Chapter 12 of the Constitution, to ensure that we recognise and appreciate the valuable contribution that was made by our forbears, the likes of Bhambatha, John Langalibalele Dube - uMafukuzela, Sekhukhune, Hintsa, Ndlambe, Moshoeshoe, Shaka-ka-Senzangakhona, Mkabayi-ka-Jama, Sukude Mkhondwane, to mention a few.

I must share with you that this process was driven by a number of objectives – amongst other things, to pay tribute to the role played by the institution in the formation of the people’s movement, leading the fight for the liberation of the oppressed masses of our people and to acknowledge and accept that the institution has an important role to play in the new dispensation, especially in the development of rural communities. We dare not fail our forbears.

Today we deemed it fit that we converge here to debate these two Bills as a further arsenal against those who don’t accept diversity as a strength in South Africa and those who want to impose their values as the only values in South Africa.

These Bills are aimed at reversing the apartheid colonialism and its legacy. We are saying that South Africa will never be the same again. Our people’s movement firmly believes that the institution is critical in reshaping and consolidating our democracy. We agree that South Africa is our country with one President and one system that we are aiming to ensure that it embraces the traditional and modern systems.

We are saying that the two systems must be able to exist side by side, without any contradictions, without any problems.

South Africa has resolved to put a constitutional and legal framework in place to ensure that the institution of traditional leadership functions in a manner that embraces democracy and contributes to the entrenchment of a democratic culture, thus enhancing their status and their standing amongst South Africans.

The transformation agenda, though, still has a long way to go. We still have to do a lot to ensure that the institution is taken forward and is able to move forward. 

The Bills that we are presenting here are a stop-gap measure. They are a temporary arrangement. Next year we will be making a comprehensive assessment of the laws. We will be presenting Bills that we think must be radical and revolutionary. We must ensure that these Bills will endure and be sustainable.

That process is being led by the Deputy Minister for Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Yunus Carrim.

We believe that the NCOP must be able to engage in this process at a formative stage. It must be able to ensure that this process is at the cutting edge of the rural communities. In either way, it is development.

We want to see a situation where the voice of traditional communities is heard in policy development, the passing of laws and their implementation, planning for the country, budgeting, human resource development and service delivery to ensure that rural communities take charge of their own destiny, as people of this country.

We believe that it is in our interest, as the Department for Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, to ensure that councillors and traditional leaders are able to work together harmoniously, because they are serving the same constituency. There is no reason for them to have conflicts, and we believe that we will be able to ensure that we deal with this issue in our lifetime.

I must also hasten to add that, going forward, we believe that we will be interacting with all departments, such as the Department of Rural Development and Land Reform, where we must be able to ensure that land allocations happen in earnest. We must also be interacting with the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries around food security, as well as the Department of Health, where we must make sure that, as South Africans, we accept that there is a platform for these matters, that our people …

… bayakwazi ukushaya amathambo, bahlole impinge. [… can assess the situation, and get to the problem.]

Those values must be accepted. We must ensure that we don’t undermine or look down upon them, as issues of culture, religion and the importance of development.

I must hasten to add that the other part of the Bill is the Bill that deals with the issues of the recognition of the institution of traditional leadership. As we go forward with the commission’s term, that is the Nhlapo Commission

• its term ended at the end of October. We have extended its lifespan until the end of January -. by February next year, we must have another commission, a commission that is going to be driven at a provincial level and co-ordinated at a national level.

I don’t understand why, in the first place, this institution allowed a situation where the Nhlapo Commission marginalised the role of provinces. I don’t understand this, because traditional affairs are a concurrent function. You could not allow a commission that investigates to look into disputes that involved provinces. I don’t understand how the institution of the NCOP passed a Bill that excluded it.

To me, that structure was a structure that violated the Constitution, where you find that people who were saying, “Let’s participate in this issue,” were not involved and were undermined. I spoke to the former MEC of KwaZulu- Natal, MEC Mabuyakhulu, who requested to do the work of the province because they understand the province. They have anthropologists. They have researchers. They can do the work for Prof Nhlapo and give it to him to decide. The Nhlapo Commission refused and did not allow them to be involved in this process. It still baffles me. I think research needs to be undertaken, and it means, going forward, the NCOP must be vigilant in looking after the interests of provinces, in ensuring that this mistake is never repeated, in ensuring that things don’t happen in this way.

From our point of view, we believe that the new commission is going to have fewer commissioners at a national level who are going to actually be co- ordinating and ensuring that they supervise the work that is done in provinces. We believe that premiers and MECs at a provincial level must prepare themselves to ensure that they appoint provincial committees that are going to be running these things. We are going to have a situation where, in all nine provinces, at the same time, the issues are being looked at, from the principal traditional leader, senior traditional leader, to headmen and women, in order to take this process forward.

From our point of view, we believe that the process is going to be speeded up, because we want to conclude the issues of the recognition of traditional leaders within a period of four years. What the Nhlapo Commission has failed to do in five years, as they dealt with only 12 cases, we want to get done in the shortest possible time, because of the provinces.

We want to thank the National House of Traditional Leaders, led by hon Kutama, with its provincial houses and the organs of civil society, the public, in general, for their contribution to the two Bills. We also want to extend our appreciation to the chairperson of the select committee and the team for his good leadership, as well as the leadership of the NCOP for their support at all times.

As much as we want to thank the select committee members for their incisive input and dedication to the task at hand, we say that you can only grow. We also want to thank the MECs from provinces. I can see that Madam Dube is with us. We are saying thank you, also to the delegates of the provinces for their contribution.

I also want to thank the department, under the leadership of Mr Elroy Africa, for their hard work and availability at times when required. I also thank the Deputy Minister for the sterling work that he has done in processing the Bill to its conclusion.

I am saying to him in his absence that this is his first achievement on the tasks given to him. We hope that he is going to take this lesson to be able to emulate the process going forward.

I also want to thank my family for their solid support and say to them that they are the bedrock of my work. Without them, we wouldn’t have been able to achieve what we have achieved. Thank you very much, Chairperson. [Applause.]

USIHLALO WOMKHANDLU KAZWELONKE WEZIFUNDAZWE: Ngqongqoshe, lento oyikhulume la ibalulekile. Bangishiyile kuhlu lwezikhulumi, kodwa bayazi ukuthi ngibuya ebukhosini. [Uhleko.] Bekufanele ngikhulume kulolu daba ngoba ngikuzwa kahle ukuthi uthini. Angazi noma laba abanye bayakuzwa kahle yini. Kodwa-ke, ngoba bangishiyile sengiyokhuluma ngelinye ilanga. Kulungile, kodwa ngiyayithanda lento oyikhulumile. Ngiyabonga kakhulu. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Minister, what you said here is very important. They excluded me from the speaker’s list and yet they know that I am royalty. [Laughter.] I was supposed to speak on this issue because I fully understand what you are saying. I am not sure whether other people fully understand you. But, because they excluded me from the speaker’s list, I will speak some other day. It’s right, but I like what you said. Thank you very much.]

Mr M H MOKGOBI: Chairperson of the House, hon Minister, the MEC, provincial delegates, members of the committee and members, let me take a brief moment to remind you that it was in 1936 that the land legislation displaced African kingdoms, in particular, and blacks in general. It was intended to suppress what colonialists called “rebellious elements” of traditional leadership.

It went on through various tribal wars of resistance, and as the Minister has stated, in terms of the Bambatha Rebellion, towards the formation of the ANC, where these traditional leaders, together with religious and the intellectual leaders of the time, sat down together and agreed that there was a need for an organisation that would unite the Africans, in particular, and blacks in general, against colonialism. This was as a result of the formation of the Union of South Africa on 31 May 1910.

Therefore, what we are bringing here is as a consequence of the history of decades and centuries of the struggle by the African people to restore their dignity. When the ANC was unbanned or even before it was unbanned, in 1986, the legal section of the ANC wrote constitutional guidelines that were geared to defining the role of traditional leadership during the time of taking over power. You would remember that ever since the Union of South Africa was formed the traditional leadership was nowhere. They did not have access to water, roads, clinics or anything, as a result of disputes. They could not even plough because they were given infertile land. In fact, they were chased onto infertile land. Therefore the House will see the passion and the need of this Parliament to restore the dignity of the traditional leadership. [Applause.]

The House will further note that after writing those constitutional guidelines in 1986, with the Harare Declaration it put more pressure on apartheid leaders to go to the negotiations. The Codesa talks did not escape having to talk about the role of traditional leadership and its definition and status; hence, after the Codesa agreement, when the interim Constitution was written in 1993, there was a clause of recognition of the traditional leadership for the first time after 100 years of suppression. What apartheid did in 1948 and the subsequent years was to craft laws that would control and regulate the traditional leadership. The traditional leadership did not have powers other than power with regard to circumcision. For all these other powers, they had to ask permission from the magistrates if they wanted to do something on their own indigenous land.

We are the generation that is taking the bull by the horns because we cannot just say we are free for nothing. We will be free when the traditional system of governance is also free and entrenched in our Constitution and democracy, so that the traditional leadership really play their role as they used to before the colonialist and apartheid government took over power in the country. [Applause.]

It is important that, as we are taking these matters further with the Bill, as the Minister has said, we do not tackle something that is new or has a new agenda. We are correcting legacies of inequality, and we are also restoring dignity.

I know elsewhere we still have a task and, as the Minister said, we are still going to engage. That is why we will call upon traditional leadership not to be reactive. They must also be proactive and write about what they think could be alternative legislation that can restore their dignity, and not just respond to what Parliament suggests for them.

I want to appeal to the House that as we engage within the scope of four years, we also have to engage with what they think is an alternative that will integrate, not what would become an antithesis, but what will become a synthesis of the ideas of Parliament and the ideas of the House of Traditional Leaders.

I think in that way we will be able to restore the traditional leadership system, and they will in a way play their constitutional role. Remember, they are the umbilical cord of the traditional community and, therefore, there is no way in which they live parallel to the people.

If the needs of the people can be entrenched in the needs of the traditional leadership, then development will be simple because there will be no quarrel if a road has to pass through somewhere. There will be no quarrel if a pipe has to pass through somewhere or when the municipality extends sites for settlement because this entire process will be done in a systematic and integrated manner.

I think we would have a vision wherein the same Integrated Development Plan that we are talking about would be an integrated development plan that has a blueprint of the ideas of the traditional leadership.

The only way is by passing this Bill, and no other way. Therefore, the House should take this Bill seriously. The process of engagement is really involving us in the sense that, as members of the committee, we have learnt what the needs of traditional leadership are; equally, traditional leadership has learnt about the legal implications of certain things, and they had to accept the views of Parliament.

We want to congratulate the two Houses, the provincial House and the national House, on the manner in which they engaged in the process leading up to the arrival of these two Bills. We need to congratulate them on that.

The process indeed started on 25 August, when the committee was briefed. After being briefed on the second Bill, the department came with clarities and then permanent delegates of provinces were allowed to go back to their provinces to allow their provincial legislature to run, to hit the ground running in terms of public hearings.

This is the process of consultation. The Bill was widely consulted upon. Consultation does not necessarily mean agreement; consultation means engaging on views and, therefore, what is the consensus would be inscribed into the Bill that will become an Act, which the other House will be passing. We had a meeting again that was in terms of the Mandating Procedures of Provinces Act.

In that forum that is where, indeed, we have seen how vibrant democracy is; that’s where you would see how permanent delegates and their provinces are serious about this aspect of the Bill. It does not necessarily mean that they would just agree. There were worrying issues, but at the end of the day permanent delegates of provinces had mandates in all nine provinces on major aspects of the Traditional Leadership and Governance Framework Bill.

As we talk now, the aspects of the amendments that are in the Bill are all agreed upon, as proposed amendments that will enhance the dignity of the house. The object of the Bills, especially the National House of Traditional Leaders Bill, is primarily really to restore the dignity of traditional leadership as a custodian of African custom and heritage, to transform its institutions so that they may be able to play their democratic role in the country.

The other Bill, as a framework, seeks to put in place all the structures that were absent to close the gaps and the inefficiencies that the current legislation provides. I therefore move without question that you adopt these Bills as progress in the House. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr J M G BEKKER: Chairperson, hon Minister, hon members of this House and guests, our leader, hon Watty Watson, is unable to be with us today, but I know that he is very passionate about the situation in respect of the Ndebele kings in Mpumalanga. Traditionally, the Ndebele nation has two kings: King Makhosonke of the Manala and King Mayisha of the Ndzundza people. The Ndzundza are by far the larger group in number and claim to have had a recognised king for centuries, whilst the Manala king was only recognised some years ago. However, the Nhlapo Commission has now given recognition to King Makhosonke of the Manalas only, which means that in terms of this legislation before us, they lose their kingship upon the death of their king:

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms T C Memela): Hon member, can you use your microphone? It is procedure, sir.

Mr J M G BEKKER: Thank you, Chair. This dilemma is, however, further complicated by the fact that King Mayisha has meanwhile passed away and, whilst a successor has been chosen by the family and crowned by the nation, he will no longer be recognised by law.

Whilst the amendment before us extends the life of the commission, it does not allow for matters decided upon by the previous commission to be revisited. The only recourse for the Ndzundza people is, therefore, a court of law, and that again presents problems of its own. Chairperson, we therefore appeal to the Minister to revisit this matter most urgently because people are now threatening that blood will flow if the problem is not solved.

Chairperson, I come from the Southern Cape, where names like Outeniqua, Kouga, Kammanassie, Kango, Baviaans, Gamka, Tsitsikamma, Touws, Gwaing and Gouritz are daily reminders of a history that we can no longer suppress and a heritage that is screaming for recognition.

It was at Aguada de Sáo Brás, the present Mossel Bay, where Bartholomew Diaz landed in 1488. The country was not empty; the indigenous people, probably from Gouriqua or Outeniqua tribes, fled from Diaz, refusing to take any of the things he was trying to give them. At one stage, they were defending their watering holes with stones; Diaz fired a crossbow and killed one of them. It was at the same Mossel Bay where Vasco Da Gama landed in December 1497. The festive mood during Da Gama’s visit is expressed in one of the songs that is part of a musical, We shall declare his praises, written by a group of young people from George. The name of the song is December 2nd.

December 2nd, oh what a day When Da Gama landed here in Mossel Bay The notes they play Some were high some low What a harmony they show

The flutists played The bodies swayed And all of us were filled with joy The sounds were sweet We stamped our feet And all of us Just kept the beat

We all look out for that perfect day When everyone on this earth will say Our cups are full Peace will be the rule Love and joy for all to share!

It was in our area that the last chief of the Outeniqua tribe, Kaptein Dikkop, died in 1816. After the death of the great chief in 1816, nobody replaced him as chief of Outeniqua. Their tribal identity had been finally destroyed.

The municipality of Riversdal is now called Hessequa municipality. It was so named after the tribe who once had their home from Baviaanskloof, now Genadendal, all along the Kannakamkanna, Riviersonderend, up to the Ladysmith area. The priests, called suris, came from this tribe.

The little town, Vleesbaai, was once called Angra dos Vaqueiros, Bay of Cattlemen, by the Portuguese because of the thousands of head of cattle of the Gouriqua on the nearby hills. It was indeed a “vleisbaai” where the seafarers could buy or barter for meat.

The Attaqua tribe, who once lived in the Oudtshoorn area, specialised in long-distance trade, as far as Delagoa Bay. The earliest national roads of our country followed these routes.

Chairperson, it is clear that the heritage and history of the descendants, now called “coloureds” or “bruinmense”, of these and other tribes are deeply embedded and an indelible part of this country’s history. The question now is how to accommodate them in the new legislation and how to identify, if any, the genuine traditional leaders. For generations, there were no tribal lifestyles, and how does one identify individuals as being members of a specific tribe?

In the Southern Cape, there are many individuals who now claim to be traditional leaders of specific tribes, while it is an open secret that neither they nor their fathers or grandfathers were born in these specific areas.

During a radio programme on Friday, 6 November, a certain king of the Koranna was challenged by other individuals who rejected his claim and said that they represented the true king of the Koranna. All three were adamant that their king was the true king.

It will be an almost impossible task to revive tribal lifestyles and to unravel the very complicated cobweb of claims to chieftainship. What we, however, cannot ignore is that most of our brown people carry in them, together with the genes of other nations, also the genes of the founding nation of this country. That they are indigenous, no one can refute.

During the Cabinet meeting of 2004, it was agreed upon that government would seriously look at the matter of first-nation status and historical land rights for the descendants of our founding nation. Up till now, no reports were produced. Thank you. The Western Cape supports the Bills. [Applause.]

Ms N DUBE(KwaZulu-Natal): Deputy Chairperson, hon Minister, hon members, ladies and gentlemen, KwaZulu-Natal supports the Traditional Leadership and Governance Framework Amendment Bill and the National House of Traditional Leaders Bill. However, the hon Minister has mentioned that our young democracy continues to be the vanguard of change in the lives of our people, in all the corners of our country.

We have wall-to-wall municipalities, which ensure that our people, wherever they are, enjoy democracy and delivery of services. As one of the few countries in the world to do so, we are recognising the institution of traditional leadership within our Constitution as a key player in the lives of the developmental people. We do not only recognise, but we talk, and we walk the talk. The recognition and the respect that are accorded to the institution of traditional leadership are such that all of us need to ensure that, as a people, we do not abuse the systems at hand.

Our concern, Deputy Chairperson, on the Bill, as the work in progress, is a the issue of principal traditional leadership might present some problems in terms of the scenarios in KwaZulu-Natal. There have already been elements and floodgates of opportunists who have claimed to be kings thanks to the framework of traditional leadership in KwaZulu-Natal, which recognises his majesty, the king, on the basis of the customary law in our tradition.

We are also concerned about the issue of the acting king. The issue in our culture is that the king is the king at the present time, and it is only when the king is no more that a new king can be appointed, on the basis of traditions, of culture and the custom of KwaZulu-Natal.

We also recognise that there might be differences in terms of the provinces and in terms of the issues that prevail within our traditional leadership, but we are saying that we need to ensure that issues of traditional leadership, as the Minister was saying, really become central to the development of our state.

The issue of flexibility in terms of the size of traditional councils is an issue that could be assessed. However, we are saying that we should be mindful of the fact that in provinces like KwaZulu-Natal, where we have 15 000 indunas, this, if it becomes an institution, might have a serious bearing in terms of cost and affordability.

Looking at the partnership between the district and local municipalities and traditional kingship and queenship councils, we are saying that there is a need to review section 81 of the Local Government: Municipal Structures Act, Mr Minister, to redefine this relationship in terms of co- operative governance and in the spirit of co-operative governance. We believe that the synergy and the partnership that the Minister was talking about is something that we need to ensure will continue.

We have already, in our province, begun to work around this. We have the synergistic partnership framework that is already in process, which we work around, between the different district councils, as well as municipalities.

With regard to the amendment of the long-term title, we think this section might open a floodgate to all other structures and traditional institutions, with huge financial implications, as I have mentioned. Currently we even have a challenge in terms of all the packages and all the requirements that we are supposed to have, in terms of the public office bearers Act for the amakhosi in the various Houses and in the various districts. We therefore need to ensure that the activities, also, of various structures do not cause conflict and are also clear, so as to avoid any conflict. Otherwise, Deputy Chairperson, as we have said, we support the two Bills. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr M W MAKHUBELA: Chairperson, hon members of the House and the Minister, I greet you all. This is a Bill that has been a long time in the making. We, in Cope, are pleased that this Bill has finally reached the stage where we are debating it.

The Bill is important for a number of reasons. We live in a constitutional state and it is imperative, whenever a structure of the government is set up, that it complies fully with the democratic rules and accountability. That should be done. Likewise, our Constitution requires that a government structure gives recognition to nonsexism, co-operative government between the legislature and the House, nation-building, unity and peace among the House and the traditional leaders and the community.

There is no question about enhancing traditional culture.

This Bill also satisfies another long-standing vacuum, namely giving serious attention to the plight of rural people in our community. The establishment of the House allows the participation of this House in the international and national programmes, which are geared towards the development of the rural communities.

It will also have the power to participate in the national and international community to monitor, review and evaluate the government programmes.

By thus focusing on the developmental needs of rural communities, the House of Traditional Leaders can only play a significant role in attracting development in the rural areas. In a world where cultural tourism is booming, the House of Traditional Leaders can play a very important role in boosting tourism in the communities there.

The code of conduct in schedule C compels those members of the House to function in such a manner that they are faithful to the community - no discrimination - and they must also be transparent.

In fact, the traditional leaders have always exercised authority in their areas in the traditional manner. That does not mean that our constitutional dispensation must not be allowed to hold sway. This Bill requires that a member of the House, if he or she wants to do any other business, must also be required to disclose any particular attention.

Finally, Chairperson, we are pleased that this attempt is made to address the misalignment of insufficient resources and also the gaps relating to House of the Traditional Leaders. We know that it will need a big budget but at least the government is prepared to do this because they are reshaping and also revamping the life of our community. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr A G MATILA: Deputy Chairperson, hon Minister and members, strengthening institutions of traditional leadership and building the capacity of traditional leaders has been a key element in our effort over the years to improve the South African governance system and the quality of life for traditional communities.

Hon members, in the process a number of important lessons during the previous term of government were learned. There have been significant victories and a number of weaknesses that relate to intergovernmental co- ordination, provincial and local spheres of government and the institution of traditional leadership.

Based on the lessons of the last 15 years, in the electoral mandate of the ruling party, the ANC, one of the priorities that has been identified for this term includes improving the developmental capacity of the institution of traditional leadership. Our mission is to facilitate co-operative governance and support the institution of traditional leadership, in order to achieve improved service delivery. The institution of traditional leadership is central to our system of governance in rural areas. Placing the institution of traditional leadership at the centre of rural development should be our key objective during this term. Furthermore, it is no accident that the vision of the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs is to build a coherent and cohesive institution of traditional leadership that plays a central role in rural development.

This optimism creates space and opportunities for the institution of traditional leadership and our traditional communities to become a vibrant and active part of this democracy. The National House of Traditional Leaders Bill and the Traditional Leadership and Governance Framework Amendment Bill were submitted to the Select Committee on Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs for consideration and reporting to this House.

In our committee deliberations, the proposed amendments to these Bills are aimed at strengthening the role of traditional leaders, as well as providing for support, recognition, new roles and responsibilities. Members of this House have to ensure that there is maximum public participation and consultation in the legislative processes. Provincial hearings were held, led by the provincial legislatures, to ensure that critical stakeholders were fully consulted.

Through these proposed amendments we believe the central role of traditional leadership for rural development is now better appreciated, together with the need to position the institution of traditional leadership to partner with government to accelerate development. Building the institution of traditional leadership, especially its developmental role as part of our governance system, should be our key focus.

Traditional leaders have a fundamental role to play in rural development and, as the Select Committee on Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, we will work closely with the National House of Traditional Leaders to ensure that this role is fulfilled effectively in order to facilitate a better life for all South Africans.

Hon Minister, we can only achieve the above if this mandate is fully funded. We have just heard from KwaZulu-Natal that this seems to be an unfunded mandate, and the department could not clarify this particular issue. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr T E CHAANE: Chairperson, hon Minister, hon members, just by way of further elaboration and to further amplify and demonstrate how clear and consistent the ANC has always been on issues of traditional leadership, and maybe to clear the confusion that might exist in others, I would like to start my speech by quoting from a statement made by Nkosi Luthuli and jointly issued by the ANC and the Natal Indian Congress in reaction to Chief Luthuli’s dismissal by the National Party government from his position as the democratically elected traditional leader of the Amakholwa community of Mvoti Mission Reserve, Groutville, Stanger in November in

1. I quote:

I saw no real conflict in my dual leadership of my people … as chief and political leader in Congress. I saw no cause to resign from either … I do not wish to challenge my dismissal, but I would like to suggest that in the interests of the institution of chieftainship in these modern times of democracy, the government should define more precisely and make more widely known the status, functions and privileges of chiefs.

My view has been, and still is, that a chief is primarily a servant of his people. He is the voice of his people … Unlike a Native Commissioner, he is part and parcel of the tribe, and not a local agent of the government … It is inconceivable how chiefs could effectively serve the wider and common interest of their own tribe without co- operating with other leaders of the people, both the natural leaders (chiefs) and leaders elected democratically by the people themselves.

Chairperson, we are proud to say that the introduction of the national framework Act on traditional leadership, the Traditional Leadership and Governance Framework Act of 2003, which was introduced in the past six years, recognises and revives the place of traditional leadership structures in the development of our communities in rural areas.

The Act provides traditional leaders with an opportunity to work together with government at all levels, especially with the focus on local government. The Act further ushered in the transformational agenda that is in line with the Constitution in that women, youth and people with disabilities must now play a major role in issues of traditional leadership and community development, more than they have done before.

Chairperson and hon members, the ANC in its election manifesto made an assertion that in its term of government, it will commit itself to a comprehensive and clear rural development strategy to address land and agrarian reform, improvement of the conditions of farm workers and farm dwellers and to build the potential for sustainable rural livelihoods.

The ruling party acknowledges progress made in the past 15 years, but it maintains that there are still people who continue to face the harshest conditions of poverty, lack of access to land and basic services in rural areas. Chairperson, it is against this background that we advocate for these two Bills to be passed by this august House, in order to strengthen the partnership between government and the institution of traditional leadership to focus on rural development and fighting poverty, while working together with the government towards a common goal.

This further strengthens the words of Nkosi Phathekile Holomisa, when he said:

Let it be necessary no more, in this era of modern democracy, for traditional leaders to ask for a definition of their status, functions and privileges. Let them continue to be servants of their people, their voice, alongside that of democratically elected leaders.

In his address to the national leaders in honour of the former President Nelson Mandela, President Jacob Zuma called upon everyone to use the expression that Madiba is fond of, which is, “Let bygones be bygones”. He called upon traditional leaders to unite, referring to the previous regime that caused divisions among traditional leaders.

Chairperson, it is through this legislative framework that, as Parliament, we follow in the footsteps of the President. We speak his language and contribute towards achieving the goals and targets that he has set for this government. We are not in any way having doubts that the Bill would go a long way towards unifying, smoothing and oiling the system of traditional leaders to function as one of the best on the continent and in the world. We should join with others within the machinery of government to stand as a symbol of commitment in our continued responsibility of ensuring that we, as Parliament, will never divert from the noble cause of social transformation, within the institution of traditional leadership.

Chairperson, the President mentioned the importance of the institution of traditional leaders in our system and its operation in many forms. This comes after the proclamation of the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs.

The central national challenge facing our country in the traditional leadership environment is the eradication of the legacy of colonialism and apartheid that condemned the majority of our people to a material life of misery. When we pass these Bills, we are saying that the custodians of our culture, heritage, and identity shall no more be allowed to be eroded by any form of law or human intention, as they used to be in the past.

Chairperson, as the ANC, we applaud the move and effort made to improve the system of traditional leadership. The capacity of traditional leaders should be strengthened with all due necessary staff and support. They deserve to be able to carry out their duties and to function in a smooth and welcoming environment. I am pleased to state that there were areas of contention in the Bill, as has already been alluded to by the chairperson of the committee, which sparked serious debates from provinces. At some point, a compromise was reached that in the end was not anybody’s victory, but it was the democratic process and procedures that prevailed at the end of the day.

In conclusion, Chairperson, we should not forget that the institution of traditional leaders is central to our system of governance in rural areas and is a key to the realisation of government’s goal to achieve the set targets on rural development.

We anticipate that the work of the commission on traditional leader disputes and claims will be completed in the next five years, as promised by the department. As Parliament, we will continue to monitor and conduct oversight on this matter to ensure that there are no further delays in resolving outstanding matters. I thank you, Chair. [Applause.]

Mr S C SEKOATI(Limpopo): Madam Deputy Chairperson, Minister for Co- operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, Kgoshi Kutama representing this house and colleagues, allow me to agree with the previous speaker, particularly in terms of reiterating what our Isithwalandwe, Chief Albert Luthuli, said on the occasion of his public address in 1952, just after his dismissal as a chief, when he refused to relinquish his activities within the ANC.

Without quoting, Deputy Chair, I would like to subscribe to that quotation as previously quoted, and I would like to say that his words still ring true to this day.

The recognition of traditional institutions by the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa bears testimony to the continued support and recognition of the centrality of the traditional institution in modern-day democracy. The establishment and strengthening of the traditional house is yet another milestone in supporting and promoting traditional leadership in its entirety, as envisaged in the 2003 White Paper on Traditional Leadership and Governance and thus promoting co-operative governance between the house, the nation, nation-building, unity and peace amongst the houses and the traditional communities, as well as enhancing traditions and culture within our communities.

We also believe that the two Bills have the capacity to strengthen the traditional house and also create a platform for traditional leaders to continue to actively participate in the advancement and development of their communities, within the democratic dispensation.

We support the view that the national government must adopt measures to support the national House to fulfil its functions through the provision of infrastructure, finance and administrative systems. The support should also resonate at all levels, from the national, provincial and local levels. We further contend that the number of full-time members of the house should correspond with the magnitude of the work of the house across the country.

We further wish to emphasise that the introduction of new legislation should take into account the indigenous terminologies used within the traditional environment and recognition of diverse cultures within the provinces. As the Limpopo legislature, we have broadly consulted and debated these important Bills, the National House of Traditional Leaders Bill and the Traditional Leadership and Governance Framework Amendment Bill. The provincial legislature, through public hearings, consulted broadly with the provincial house, the district and local houses, the Congress of Traditional Leaders of South Africa, Contralesa, and other departments responsible for traditional leadership. Our legislature appreciates the co-operation and meaningful contribution made by our traditional leaders in consideration of these Bills.

We also appreciate the support of the NCOP members, particularly from our province and, in particular, the chairperson of the committee, hon Comrade Matome Humphrey Mokgobi, for the sterling work done. The Limpopo province is a predominantly rural province, which makes it the home of most of our traditional leadership in the institution. In our five districts, there is a strong presence of traditional leaders, with pending confirmation of kingship status in the district of Sekhukhune, where we hope that within the next few working months we should be able to find a conclusion to some of the issues.

We also believe that the traditional leadership and its institutions have been in the forefront of our struggles for liberation and anti-imperialism. They have survived with distinction the divisive, corrupt tendencies of the apartheid regime and contributed immensely to the defeat of this regime. It is in view of this background that, as a province, we hereby fully support the adoption of these two Bills. I thank you. [Applause.]

UMntwana M M M ZULU: Sihlalo, mhlonishwa Ngqongqoshe, namaLungu Omkhandlu Weziphathimandla aqhamuka kwizifundazwe zezwe lethu esilakhele, namalunga ahloniphekile akuleNdlu. Kuncane engingakusho ngoba inkulumo yakho inokuthembisa okuthile, kokuthi mhlawumbe lezi zinhlanga zobukhosi noma lobu bukhosi uzoke ububheke ngendlela okuyona yona.Ngoba kube nezinto ezithile ezibe yisithiyo kumina enhlizweni. Ngeke ngisho ukuthi akukho okungenziwanga,ngoba kwakona ukuthi bukhona ubukhosi kwisehluko seshumi nambili kwisakhiwo sezwe kusho okuthile.

Kodwa uma ubheka ukuthi, uma usuyinkosi wenzani, kungabibikho okuhlinzeka ngokuthi inkosi iyokwenzani. Bese sikusho nje ngomlomo ukuthi kuyobakhona ukusebenzisana phakathi kwamakhosi namakhansela. Akengibeke, uma ngibeka ekhaya, ngibeka ingonyama yamaZulu, uGoodwill Zwelithini kaBhekuzulu, bese ngibeka amakhansela lapha oSuthu, kuMkhandlu Wezindaba Zesintu wasoSuthu. Yini kambe ongayisho komdala, uma ungekho umgomo olawulwa umthetho wezwe ukuthi kuyosetshenzwa kanjani, ngokwenhlonipho yethu njengesizwe.

Ngithe-ke mina, amakhosi ngeke siwashayele umthetho, kuyofuneka kube khona izinkundla zokuxoxisana nawo njengosombusazwe. Lokhu ngikushiswa ukuthi, ukhokho ka khokho wami, iNkosi uCetshwayo, walwa impi yokuqala nabacindezeli abamhlophe, ababeluqale khona la eNtshonalanga Koloni, belibusa lonke leli baze bayoshona e-Mpumalanga Kapa nakwaZulu, bafike bathola isibhaxu ngomhlaka 22 Masingana 1879, eSandlwana. Ukhokho wami, iNkosi uDinuzulu, yaboshwa yaboshelwa e-St Helena. Kwaze kwathi umkhulu wazalelwa khona lapho, kwakungumzabalazo wamakhosi lowo uqobo lwawo, ebhekene namakoloni uqobo.

Abesifazane baseVryheid babejojwa ngabamhlophe uma sebesuthi ukwenza lezi zinto ababezenza. Kodwa uDinuzulu wakwazi lapho kwaMthashana ukuqondana nabo,walwa nabo. Kwakungumnikelo wamakhosi elwa, zingekho izinhlangano zepolitiki. Ngiyazi ukuthi izinhlanga zepolitiki zibe khona ngo-1912. Yena uDinuzulu uqobo waba umkhoseli wenhlangano ebusayo njengamanje.

Ngithi-ke, ngiyethemba Ngqongqoshe njengoba usho ukuthi kukhona okuthile ozokwenza ukuze kwenzeke ukuthi kuficwane. Ngoba sifisa ukuthi kusetshenzwe ngokuhlanganyela ezweni lakithi, hhayi ukuthi kuphikiswane, hhayi ukuthi kuliwe, ngoba sasicindezelwe sisonke. Ngiyabonga. (Translation of isiZulu speech follows.)

[Prince M M M ZULU: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister and hon Members of the Executive Council from the different provinces of our country and the hon members in this House. There is very little that I can say because your speech had some promises indicating that maybe you will look into these tribal kingships or this kingship in a proper manner, because a few things have been troubling me. I cannot say that nothing was done because the fact that Chapter 12 of the country’s Constitution deals with kingship means something.

But when you look into what you need to do when you become a king, you find that nobody prepares you with regard to what the king must do. And we only verbally express that traditional leaders and councillors will be working together. Let me say this, I install the King of the Zulus, King Goodwill Zwelithini, the son of Bhekuzulu, and then appoint councillors here at Usuthu to the Council of Traditional Leaders. By the way, what is it that you can say to the king if there are no policies that stipulate the procedures to follow in our country with regard to how we can work together in a respectful manner as a nation? I said that we cannot lay down the rules for the kings; there should rather be platforms where we can engage with them as politicians.

I say this because King Cetshwayo fought the first war with the white oppressors, who started ruling from the Western Cape. They ruled the whole area and went as far as the Eastern Cape and even KwaZulu. They were defeated on 22 January 1879, at Sandlwana. My great-grandfather, King Dinizulu, was arrested at St Helena. That led to my grandfather being born there, which was the real struggle for the kings, coming face to face with the colonialists.

Women from Vryheid were impaled by the whites when they were done satisfying themselves with them. But King Dinizulu managed to face and fight them at KwaMthashana. That was the king’s contribution - fighting without political parties. I know that the political parties came into being in 1912. King Dingiswayo himself sheltered this very ruling party.

I believe, hon Minister, as you are saying, that you will do something about this so that we can be on par. Because we wish to work together in our country; we should not oppose or fight each other because we were all oppressed. Thank you.]

Ms M ROSHO(North West): Madam Deputy Chairperson, hon Minister for Co- operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, hon members of this august House, members of the NCOP and our honourable chiefs, I must stand in this august House today as a truly proud South African.

I’m proud because I am part of a society that is charged with the responsibility to shape the future of this progressive South African nation, a responsibility that can only be managed by women and men who are courageous and motivated to serve the masses of our country. The South Africa that we live in today presents us with a set of laws and policies that are progressive and geared towards recognising, respecting and protecting the fundamental human rights of individuals.

As a progressive nation, we have come to understand that all citizens have a meaningful role to play in building a society that we all like to live in. Of great importance in building a progressive nation is the recognition of the role that can be played by the institution of traditional leadership, which was created by our forefathers many years ago, but which continues to grow and thrive to this day in changing and influencing in a positive way the fortunes of this great nation.

Traditional leadership in this country was and continues to be a system of governance that is based on recognition and respect for human dignity. The importance of this institution cannot be underestimated, for it is recognised by the highest law in the country, the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa.

The Constitution not only recognises the institution of traditional leadership, but it enjoins government to pass legislation that provides for a role for traditional leadership as an institution at local level on matters affecting its local communities. The traditional leadership system is a way of life that the majority of indigenous South Africans hold in high esteem, want to associate with and are proud to call their own.

It is imperative, therefore, that it must be nurtured and allowed to grow from strength to strength. This can be achieved through a series of progressive laws and policy formulation that will strengthen this institution. The institution of traditional leadership is not only important in this country but enjoys critical importance on the entire continent of Africa. I wish to quote from the White Paper on Traditional Leadership:

The institution of traditional leadership occupies an important place in African life and, historically, in the body politic of South Africa. It embodies the preservation of culture, traditions, customs and values of the African people while also representing the early forms of societal organisation and governance. However, when South Africa adopted the Interim Constitution and, subsequently, the new Constitution, the people declared the Republic of South Africa to be a sovereign, democratic State founded on a number of basic values, including the supremacy of the Constitution. This marked the ushering-in of a new era.

As a nation, we, therefore, have to ensure that the traditional leadership system does not venture into oblivion, but we must continue to enact progressive laws that will ensure the existence of this system of governance for the duration of existence of humankind. We are not surprised, therefore, when we see these two Bills serving before this House, seeking to advance the course of traditional leadership. This is a process that started some time ago with the adoption of the White Paper on Traditional Leadership and beyond.

We must also say that traditional leadership must also continuously transform to be in line with, amongst other things, the Constitution as the supreme law of this country. Specifically, the role that women can play as traditional leaders cannot be ignored any longer. But we are proud as a nation because today we have the Constitutional Court, a creation of the Constitution, as the custodian of the Constitution and other laws applicable in the Republic, including customary law. Out of this court we have seen some progressive judgments that assist the traditional leadership system to grow and to align with democratic values.

In particular, the role of women hasn’t progressively been recognised and, to an extent, enforced by the courts. Much can still be achieved in this area, and this also requires transformation of our thinking in traditional communities. We are particularly encouraged to see amongst our traditional leaders of today women whose birthrights have been confirmed by the communities and who have ascended to the throne to be leaders of their respective communities.

This can only point to a bright future for this country. However, we must indicate that we, in the North West Province, enjoy a co-operative working relationship with traditional leaders, whom we continue to empower and capacitate through purpose-built facilities, provision of information technology equipment and training, secretarial and administrative support and ongoing training on local government.

We are equipping the traditional councils with financial controls and systems to manage their own funds. This is intended to comply with the law and also to help reduce the tensions that are emerging lately in those committees around funds.

We think that traditional leaders are capable and can play a central role in the fight against poverty, crime and HIV/Aids in their respective communities. It is, therefore, imperative that we must provide them with the tools to do so. These pieces of legislation will help us to achieve that.

If government is to succeed in delivering in these priority areas, as stated by President Jacob Zuma in his state of the nation address, then we must strengthen traditional leadership institutions and work hand in hand with these leaders for the benefit of our people, particularly those who reside in the remote rural corners of our country.

Whilst we are not able to reach these people on a daily basis, traditional leaders are not only able to do so but they also live with them in these areas. Therefore, it is important to work with traditional leaders to create self-sustenance in rural communities.

I, therefore, would like to advise the Ministers of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries and Rural Development and Land Reform to pay a visit to traditional leaders, to be fed with indigenous knowledge and to be helped to fully understand the role that these traditional leaders can play in the development of the rural communities.

In respect of the two pieces of legislation, we want to emphasise the position of the North West Province - that we support the initiative to add the legislation and that we will see the rebirth of the National House of Traditional Leaders and the importance of the amendment of the Traditional Leadership and Governance Framework Act, Act 41 of 2003. We would like to take this opportunity to congratulate the Minister for Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs and his team of hard-working individuals for the sterling work that they have performed in an attempt to bring these pieces of legislation to life. They have traversed the country, seeking inputs and support for these pieces of legislation, particularly engaging with traditional leaders so as to bring about a product that will enhance the status of the traditional leadership institution. Finally, the North West Province offers its support for these pieces of legislation; our comments, views and the inputs of our traditional leader have been forwarded through the NCOP. I thank you. [Applause.]

Monghadi T M H MOFOKENG: Ke a leboha Modulasetulo, Letona, baemedi ba diprofensi le maloko a Lekgotla la Ntlo ya Diprofensi. Boetapele ba setso haesale e le karolo ya bophelo ba MaAfrika ho tloha sethathong. Setso sa rona le moetlo wa rona ke motheo wa bophelo ba rona mme MaAfrika a phemme ho timela ka baka la matla a setso sa rona. Re sireleditse setso sa rona kgahlanong le tshusumetso le tshwaetso eo maikemisetso a yona e neng e le ho ferekanya le ho etsa MaAfrika makgoba a matswantle ho ya ka ho sa feleng.

Kgaolo ya 12 ya Molaotheo, karolo ya 211 le 212, di nehelana ka tlhokomediso ya ho thehwa ha boetapele ba setso, maemo le boikarabelo ho ya ka molao wa setso, le ho ikamahanya le tsamaiso e amohelehileng. Ke karolo ya nalane ya naha ena hore mengwahakgolo ya ho feta ya kgatello le kgethollo ke mebuso ya bohanyapetsi, e telletse le ho nyenyefatsa boetapele boo ba setso. Maemong ao a kgatello e neng e tsheheditswe ke melao ya kgatello, haholoholo Black Administration Act 38 of 1927, ho ne ho se na mokgwa oo boetapele ba setso bo neng bo ke ke ba ba mahlatsipa. Mmuso wa kgatello ka ho leka ho imatlafatsa o ile wa thea mebuso ya oona e neng e tshehetsana le maano a teng a kgethollo.

Re thoholetsa mmuso wa ANC ka maikemisetso a ho kgutlisetsa seriti sa setso sa rona mme re ipiletsa ho batho ba fuweng boikarabelo ba ho sebetsana le taba tsa boetapele ba setso hore ba sebetsane le tsona ka boqhetseke le nnete hore maemo a kgutlele madulong, ba sebedisane mmoho le mmuso. Re thoholetsa le maikemisetso a mmuso hore a fane ka ditekanyetso le merokotso hore diphetoho tseo ba tobaneng le tsona ba tle ba di hlole.

Re etsa le boipiletso ba hore tshehetso e fuwang boetapele ba setso le marena e se ke ya seha mpa ka lehare, ba tshehetswe ka ho lekana hore ba tle ba buse ka toka. Tshehetso eo ba e fuwang re lebeletse hore e ba behe maemong ao ba tlang ho ikemela, ba etse kuno le phaello ya tjhelete e tlang ho etsa hore ba nke karolo moruong wa naha ena ka tsela e nang le boikarabelo. Boholo ba batho ba naheng ena ba dula dibakeng tseo ba welang tlasa puso ya marena kapa boetapele ba setso.

Khomishene e entse mosebetsi o motle, o babatsehang ka ho fana ka tlaleho e rarollotseng a mang a mathata a neng a tobane le puso ya setso. Re tshepa hore diphephetso tse setseng di tla rarollwa ntle le mathata ka tshebedisanommoho. Polelo e reng ‘morena ke morena ka setjhaba’, e ntse e nepahetse le kajeno hobane diphephetso tse tobaneng le mmuso wa ANC, e ntse e le tse tobaneng le boetapele ba setso.

Mobu o taolong ya bona o lokollelwe batho hore ba fumantshwe bodulo ka ho ahelwa matlo, ho lengwe ho be le kotulo e ntle mme mmoho ho matlafatswe ntwa kgahlanong le bofuma, ho be le dintshetsopele tse tlang ho tswela batho molemo, jwaloka ho ahwa ha dikolo, ditliliniki, dipetlele, mabala a boithapollo, dilaeborari le dikantoro moo batho ba tlang ho fumantshwa ditshebeletso tsohle tseo mmuso o fanang ka tsona.

Boetapele ba setso bo sebetse mmoho le makgotla a motse ho netefatsa hore mebila e a lokiswa mme batho ba fumantshwa metsi le motlakase. Karolo ya bona e tlamehile ho hlakiswa ka ho otloloha mabapi le ntwa kgahlanong le botlokotsebe, ho kgothaletsa boitshwaro bo botle batjheng, ho nena thobalano lemong tse tlase le ho ba kgahlanong le ho shobediswa ha bona ke batho ba baholo ba ba etse basadi, ho lwantshana le tshwaetso ya HIV/AIDS le ho fedisa tlhekefetso ya bomme le bana, maqheku le batho ba sa itekanelang.

Boetapele ba setso bo tlamehile ho ikamahanya le dinako le diphethoho mme bo ananele karolo ya bomme ba tshwarang thipa ka bohaleng. Katleho ya bona e tlo itshetleha haholo monyetleng oo ba tlang ho o neha bomme hore ba itshupe bokgoning ba bona mme re tshepa hore molao ona o tla matlafatsa ho nka karolo ha bona.

Marena a rona a utlwisise hore ke marena ka setjhaba le hore mowakgotla ha a tsekiswe ebile morena ke kgetsi ya masepa. Re kopa hore ba buse ka toka. Re lebohisa le ho tlotla tlotla e entsweng ke African Royal Institute ho ntate Mandela le mekutu e etswang ke Congress of Traditional Leadership of South Africa ho kopanya marena le baetapele ba setso. Re tshehetsa sekamolao sena. Ke a leboha. [Mahofi.] (Translation of Sesotho speech follows.)

[Mr T M H MOFOKENG: Thank you, Chairperson, Minister, representatives of provinces and members of the National Council of Provinces. Traditional leadership has been part of the lives of Africans from the beginning. Our tradition and culture is the foundation of our lives and Africans managed to survive because of the power of our tradition. We have protected our culture from the pressure and negative influences that were aimed at bringing confusion and making Africans permanent slaves of foreigners.

Sections 211 and 212 in Chapter 12 of the Constitution recognise the formation of traditional leadership and its status, role and responsibility according to customary law to govern in a fair and acceptable manner. It is part of the history of this country that many years of oppression and discrimination by the apartheid government despised and demeaned traditional leadership. There was no way that the traditional leadership could have avoided victimisation under oppression, which was supported by apartheid laws, especially the Black Administration Act, Act 38 of 1927. The apartheid government was always trying to empower itself by forming new laws that supported its policies of oppression.

We applaud the ANC government for its intention to restore the dignity of our culture, and we appeal to those who are given the responsibility to deal with this matter to do so in an appropriate and honest manner, and to work together with government, so that things can go back to normal. We also applaud the government’s intentions to make budget allocations and funds available in order to address the challenges that lie ahead.

We are also making an appeal that the distribution of funds to traditional leaders and chiefs should be fair and equal, so that they will be able to govern fairly. We expect the funds that they receive to enable them to be independent, earn interest and make profit so that they can contribute responsibly to the economy of this country. Many people in this country live in areas that are governed by kings and traditional leaders.

The commission has done a great and commendable job by producing a report that solved some of the problems that faced traditional leadership. We trust that the outstanding challenges will be resolved without any problems so that co-operation may prevail. The words, “without followers, there is no leader” are still as relevant today as they were then, because the challenges facing the ANC government are the same challenges facing traditional leadership. The land under their control should be given to the people so that houses can be built for them, and also so that they can plant and have a good harvest, and together they can strengthen the fight against poverty. There should be development that will benefit the people, such as the building of schools, clinics, hospitals, recreational facilities, libraries and offices where people can receive all the services offered by the government.

Traditional leaders must work together with local councils to ensure that roads are repaired and water and electricity are made available to the people. Chapter must be explained thoroughly regarding the fight against crime, to encourage the youth to behave properly, to abstain from sexual activities at a young age and to be against forced marriages to older men, to fight the HIV/Aids infection and to stop the abuse of women and children, elderly people and people with disabilities.

The traditional leadership must be transformed and must accept the idea of independent women. Their success will depend on the opportunity they give to women to show their capabilities, and we trust that this law will strengthen their participation.

Our chiefs must understand that they are who they are because of the people and we all make mistakes and that the chief is the one who takes all the responsibility. We thank and applaud the African Royal Institute for what they have done for the honourable Mandela and the Congress of Traditional Leadership of South Africa for their efforts in bringing together kings and traditional leaders. We support this legislation. I thank you. [Applause.]]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you. Order! There was a bit of confusion with the speaker’s list. Mr Mokgoro, are you speaking? Do you know that you are speaking? All right, I will call you, then, if you know. I thought you didn’t know. Otherwise, I wouldn’t have called you. Yes, you can take the platform.

Rre G G MOKGORO: Modulasetulo, Tona ya lefapha, Rre Shiceka, le maloko a Ntlo e, rona re le ba Kapa Bokone re batlile re tingwa puo. Ga ke itse gore bothata e ne e le eng gore leina la rona le be le seyo mo lenaneong. Fela ke leboga Modualasetulo gore a bo a mpiditse gore le rona re tle go ntsha maikutlo a rona a Kapa Bokone. (Translation of Setswana paragraph follows.)

[Mr G G MOKGORO: Chairperson, Minister of the department, Mr Shiceka, and members of this House, the Northern Cape almost lost the opportunity to speak. I don’t know what the problem was that led to our name not being included in the programme. However, I thank the Chairperson for giving me an opportunity to voice our opinion as the Northern Cape.]

We feel that the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs, under the leadership of Minister Shiceka, has proposed amendments to the Traditional Leadership and Governance Framework Act of 2003, in June

1. The result was the coming into existence of the Traditional Leadership and Governance Framework Bill, which is currently undergoing rigorous parliamentary processes.

The Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs department seeks to improve traditional leadership by designing a workable framework that will improve good governance within the traditional institutions and traditional communities.

The department further contemplates addressing leadership claims and disputes by reconfiguring the Commission on Traditional Leadership Disputes and Claims into a user-friendly and functional entity. Moreover, the department wishes to assign roles and responsibilities to the institution of traditional leadership such as traditional councils, local councils, provincial and national houses of traditional leaders as part of co- operative governance.

It is also incumbent upon the department to introduce the fourth level of traditional leaders in order to reinstate the African indigenous traditional structures in addition to key senior traditional leaders and headmen and headwomen.

The department has introduced the following amendment: principal traditional leaders. This forms a fourth category of traditional leaders. The category comes after queenship, since it is the second highest, after a king. This category is reported to have existed within some traditional communities in Africa, prior to the advent of colonialism.

The Commission on Traditional Leadership Disputes and Claims will now report to the Minister instead of the President. The commission will now operate both at national and provincial levels. At provincial level, the commission will deal with the traditional leadership disputes and claims before referring them to the national structure. The term of office of the commission will be five years.

The Northern Cape Provincial House of Traditional Leaders agrees fully with the amendment, although the issue of paramount leader does not affect it. However, it is envisaged that the status quo may change following the forthcoming recognition of traditional leaders from the Khoisan community in the near future. The Northern Cape endorses the amendment as proposed. Thank you.

The MINISTER FOR CO-OPERATIVE GOVERNANCE AND TRADITIONAL AFFAIRS: Chairperson, we must express our appreciation and gratitude for the time that has been taken and the level of preparation for this debate, as well as the contributions that have been made. At times we take everything for granted, like the air that we breathe; we believe that it will always be there. We believe that it is important to appreciate that the views expressed can only enrich us so that we can do better.

On the issues that I would like to share, I would think that it is important and imperative that this House is able to call upon departments to come and tell it, as a House, what they have done in the implementation of laws that have been passed by this House. Linked to that, I think we must have a project that looks at the laws that we think are critical, that have an impact on our people, in order to check how far we have gone in executing those tasks.

I can tell you without any fear of contradiction that departments are not implementing many of the laws that are passed by Parliament. Equally, Parliament is guilty because it does not make these departments account for their actions. Parliament passes a law and they forget about it. Nothing is being done to check how far the department has gone in the implementation of the law. The other thing from our side is that we are going to do things differently. It can’t be business as usual; there must be change and continuity.

Firstly, amongst other things that we are going to do, is to recognise the officials that have worked hard. And the spectators in the gallery, who are supposed to be seated here, are going to be demanded to present me with an implementation plan of these laws, before they go on their Christmas break this year.

It means next year you can call us as the first department to come and present our plan for the implementation of the laws, with timeframes, not just theory that is not followed and can’t be measured. We believe that we have a role to play, particularly, on concurrent functions that we think are important; we are supposed to ensure that people are able to pay for that.

The second issue is that of the kings and queens. One of the things that we have agreed upon, on the issue of all the kings and queens in South Africa, is that the commission must give a report to the department by the end of this month, November 2009. We are not going to accept many excuses. We want to see things being done, because our people are waiting. We believe that the issues of dispute are just a distraction and are just side-tracking us.

Our task and historical mission is to deliver services to our people and to ensure that the quality of our people’s lives is improved, and we are going to do exactly that. One of the issues that has been raised, which is a mystery to me, is that the system of government of this country has, for the past 15 years, never recognised the Khoisan people as a people who are in South Africa.

The question that we must be asking ourselves is where the NCOP, as an institution, was when these things happened. We must begin to use the fact that we are public representatives. We must use our oversight quite vigorously and vociferously in the way we do things. Having said that, when we came in, in the interim we had said that the Khoisan people must be represented at national level and in provinces, but that was a stop-gap measure. That’s why we are saying in the coming year we are going to come with a comprehensive piece of legislation that is going to ensure that people are recognised and that they enjoy their status.

The Khoisan people were the first people to be in this country. You can’t marginalise indigenous people and keep them out of the system. We believe that these matters must be taken up. Going forward, we think that we must begin to look at family trees. There is a campaign that will be undertaken at some point when we are ready, that every person must look at their family tree. What is a family tree? You’ll begin to trace your roots and understand yourselves.

We know that in South Africa other people were calling themselves Grootboom, and so on, because of the past laws, but you find that in reality it’s Mthimkhulu. [Interjections.] Others were calling themselves Windvoël, and you find that in reality it’s Sibanyoni. [Interjections.] [Laughter.]

Now, it is important that we begin to look at these things and look at reversing them, so that people can go back to their roots. People must be proud of their own heritage; they must be proud of their own culture; they must be proud of where they are coming from. You find that some people in urban areas no longer want to remember and recognise that they come from rural areas, that they have their roots in rural areas. They want to be from the townships. They don’t recognise where they come from.

We must be able look at the issue of protocol of the traditional leaders. We must develop the policies on those issues, so that we are able to ensure that people are following these things.

Equally, the issue of funding of the institutions is an issue that has to be taken up. It’s a matter that must be taken up with the National Treasury, because the issue of funding of these institutions was not recognised, because it was not there or was inadequate. However, as a department, we will be establishing a department with a director-general, standing on its own, a Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs that is going to ensure that it looks at these matters. [Applause.]

The other thing that I think we must be able to do is to say, when investors come to a traditional community and want to invest, they must not subjugate and undermine traditional leadership by making them part of BEE. Traditional leaders own the land. No development can take place without the land. [Applause.] They must own major shares; they must be part of the shareholding system in those areas, so that the people of traditional communities can benefit.

We are going to make sure that these matters are addressed; we stand foursquare behind traditional leaders going forward, as much as the issues that have been raised - which I want to clarify here - by the Congress of Traditional Leaders of South Africa, Contralesa. Contralesa raises an issue that says we are going to have a Soccer World Cup, a soccer extravaganza, that will never happen in our lifetime again, as we are here, all of us, on the shores of this country.

They say if the Soccer World Cup is an African World Cup, what are the elements that must show that it’s an African World Cup? They say, in terms of the building of the stadiums in this country, when you have finished building something, you are able to ensure that you anoint it, and the way of anointing and appreciating is to slaughter, and other people are raising an issue with this, and they don’t want it.

I am going to meet with Contralesa and engage them on this question. But I believe that, as South Africans, we must accept diversity and take it as strength. Because you don’t look like me, I must not look down upon you. I must accept that people must practise their own things, as long as they don’t trample on the affairs of others.

Therefore, in our point of view, what we are saying is that the issues of traditional matters are going to be taken seriously with vigour and verve, and we are going to ensure that we stick to them going forward. I would say that on other issues raised by the members, we have recorded them.

The officials are here, and the Chairperson of the National House of Traditional Leaders is here. He is also recording. I have also recorded. We will be able to take them up and ensure that going forward they shape our implementation strategy because we believe that, collectively, we must be able to move forward.

We believe that when you are given a responsibility, you are not given more brains. You are not cleverer than others. The fact that you are given a responsibility means that the brains that you have that make you cleverer are the collective around you.

You must be able to listen to other people, because they can only enrich you. You must not be afraid of criticism, because criticism also builds. Therefore, in that way, from our side we believe that your contributions and views will be able to take us forward. And we believe that together, we are going to be able to change this country. Thank you very much, Chairperson. [Applause.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you, hon Minister, we appreciate your response. I can assure you that some of the things that you have said are already in our framework plan for the whole five years, particularly the implementation of the legislation and vigorous engagement of the departments. Your progressive support to the NCOP and your willingness that we start with your department is noted, so that other Ministers can see that it is doable and I can assure you … [Interjections.] Order! Louis, hlala phansi! [Louis, be seated!] [Laughter.]

We will make sure that our chairpersons in the strategic plans have got all that you have mentioned in their plans and it’s recorded in the Hansard, and the Minister could actually check and follow up whether we are doing those things. We promise you, we will do it.

Asihlabi kuphela ezitediyamu, kufuneka ithele nempepho phela, ukuze iBafana Bafana iphumelele. Asibetheli, yingakho bengaphumeleli, kufuneka sibethele. Yisintu sakithi leso. Siyabonga kakhulu-ke mhlonishwa. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[We are not only slaughtering in stadia, but we need to burn impepho [traditional incense] as well so that Bafana Bafana can win. We do not perform traditional rituals for strengthening the stadia and warding off evil in the stadia, and that is the reasons they are not winning - we must do it. That is our culture. Thank you very much, hon Chairperson.]

Debate concluded.

Question put: That the National House of Traditional Leaders Bill be agreed to. That concludes the debate. I shall now put the question. The question in respect of the first Order is that the Bill be agreed to.

As the question is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain if all delegation heads are present in the House. Are all delegation heads present?

In accordance with Rule 71, I shall first allow provinces an opportunity to make their declarations of vote if they so wish.

We shall now proceed to the voting on the question. I shall do so in alphabetical order per province. Delegation heads must please insert their cards in the machine. I see there are new delegation heads; please show them how to do it.

Before I call the vote in, please press button 1 to confirm your presence. There should be lights flashing. If not, the Chamber staff will assist you.

We shall now commence with the voting. When I call the the name of the province, the delegation head will vote by pressing button 4 for those who vote in favour, button 2 for those who vote against and button 3 for those who abstain.

Have all the provinces voted? If any of the members have pressed the incorrect button, please press the correct button now. The voting has closed. The staff will now present the results to me.

I now have the results. All nine provinces have voted in favour of the Bill, but we will not record Mpumalanga’s vote because they didn’t send a written mandate. You are aware that in terms of the law and the Rules, when we pass a Bill there must be a written mandate. In other words, eight provinces have voted in favour and therefore the Bill is agreed to in terms of section 65 of the Constitution. [Applause.]

IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.

National House of Traditional Leaders Bill accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

Question put: That the Traditional Leadership and Governance Framework Bill be agreed to.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I shall now put the question in respect of the second order. The question is that the Bill be agreed to. As the decision is dealt with in terms of section 65 of the Constitution, I shall first ascertain if all delegation heads are present in the Chamber. You are all present. In accordance with Rule 71 I shall now allow provinces to make their declarations of vote if they so wish. Is there any province who wants to do so? None. We shall now proceed to the voting. You now know what to do.

Have you all voted? If any member has made a mistake, please correct it. The voting has closed and the staff will give me the results.

Mpumalanga, let me correct that. Once we have received your mandate in writing we will record it in the records of the NCOP.

An HON MEMBER: Mapumalanga did submit it in writing but I’m not sure what happened to it.

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: That is fine. You can rectify it but we want to see it. The Bill is still passed; there is no problem about it. Limpopo, can you assist the staff please?

The result is: Eight provinces have voted in favour and therefore the Bill is agreed to in terms of section 65 of the Constitution. [Applause.] When Mpumalanga’s mandate comes, we’ll record it.

IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Northern Cape, North West, Western Cape.

Traditional Leadership and Governance Framework Amendment Bill accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

The Council adjourned at 18:04. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

                       FRIDAY, 6 NOVEMBER 2009

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1. Introduction of Bills

 (1)    The Minister of Communications


      a) South African Postbank Bill [B 14 – 2009] (National Assembly –
         proposed sec 75) [Explanatory summary of Bill and prior notice
         of its introduction published in Government Gazette No 32673
         of 6 November 2009.]


         Introduction and referral to the Portfolio Committee on
         Communications of the National Assembly, as well as referral to
         the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for classification in terms
         of Joint Rule 160.


         In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the classification
         of the Bill may be submitted to the JTM within three
         parliamentary working days.

National Council of Provinces

The Chairperson

1. Referral to Committees of papers tabled

   1) The following papers are referred to the Select Committee on Trade and International Relations for consideration and report:

   a) Accession to the revised Cotonou Partnership Agreement:
      Agreement Amending the Partnership Agreement between the Members
      of the African, Caribbean and Pacific Group of States, of the
      one part, and the European Community and its Member States, of
      the other part, tabled in terms of section 231(2) of the
      Constitution, 1996.
   
   b) Explanatory memorandum to the Accession to the revised Cotonou
      Partnership Agreement: Agreement Amending the Partnership
      Agreement between the Members of the African, Caribbean and
      Pacific Group of States, of the one part, and the European
      Community and its Member States, of the other part.
   

COMMITTEE REPORTS

National Council of Provinces

1. Report of the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Development on the Declaration of an Amnesty in terms of Section 139(2)(a) of the Firearms Control Act, 2000 (Act No 60 of 2000), dated 04 November 2009:

The Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Development, having
considered the request for approval by Parliament of the Declaration of
an Amnesty in terms of the Firearms Control Act, 2000 (Act No. 60 of
2000), recommends that the National Council of Provinces, in terms of
section 139 (2) (a) of the Act, approve the Declaration subject to the
following amendments:


1.      That the words “No details of the person who hands in the
   firearm will be taken down, if the person wishes to utilise the
   anonymous process for amnesty“ in paragraph “(a)” of the Declaration
   be deleted.
2.      That the words “Proper audit processes must be put in place to
   ensure the auditing of the records of all firearms, surrendered
   anonymously in terms of this amnesty” that appear in the second last
   paragraph of the Declaration also be deleted.


The Select Committee is of the view that an anonymous amnesty process
will be open to abuse.


Report to be considered.


                      TUESDAY, 10 NOVEMBER 2009

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1. Introduction of Bills

 (1)    The Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional
     Development


      a) Repeal of the Black Administration Act and Amendment of
         Certain Laws Amendment Bill [B 15 – 2009] (National Assembly –
         proposed sec 75) [Explanatory summary of Bill and prior notice
         of its introduction published in Government Gazette No 32652
         of 20 October 2009.]


         Bill initiated by the Portfolio Committee on Justice and
         Constitutional Development of the National Assembly, and
         referred to the Joint Tagging Mechanism (JTM) for
         classification in terms of Joint Rule 160.


         In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the classification
         of the Bills may be submitted to the JTM within three
         parliamentary working days.

National Council of Provinces

The Chairperson

1. Membership of Committees

(1)     The following NCOP members have been appointed to the Joint
   Standing Committee on Defence:

   ANC


   Montsitsi, Mr S D
   Dikgale, Ms M C
   Mofokeng, Mr T M H
   Maine, Mr M C
   Nzimande, Mr L P M

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Minister of Justice and Constitutional Development

   (a) Report and Financial Statements of the President’s Fund for 2008- 2009, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements and Performance Information for 2008-2009 [RP 254-2009].

   (b) Report on the Government’s Progress on the Implementation of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission Recommendations for 2008-2009.

2. The Minister of Finance

(a)     South African Revenue Service (SARS) – Response to the Joint
    Report of the Standing Committee on Finance and the Portfolio
    Committee  on Economic Development on Budget Vote 7 – National
    Treasury (Including SARS) and the 2009/10  –  2011/12 Strategic
    Plan of the South African Revenue Service.


(b)     Government Notice No R. 975  published in Government Gazette No
    32630 dated 09 October 2009: Amendment of Schedule No 1 (No
    1/1/1386), in terms of the Customs and Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91
    of 1964).

(c)     Government Notice No R. 950  published in Government Gazette No
    32616 dated 09 October 2009: Amendment of Rules (DAR/62), in terms
    of the Customs and Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).
(d)     Government Notice No R. 951  published in Government Gazette No
    32616 dated 09 October 2009: Amendment of Schedule No 2 (No 2/320),
    in terms of the Customs and Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).

(e)     Government Notice No R. 952  published in Government Gazette No
    32616 dated 09 October 2009: Amendment of Schedule No 4 (No 4/321),
    in terms of the Customs and Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).

(f)     Government Notice No R. 953  published in Government Gazette No
    32616 dated 09 October 2009: Amendment of Schedule No 3 (No 3/649),
    in terms of the Customs and Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).
(g)     Government Notice No R. 941  published in Government Gazette No
    32601 dated 02 October 2009: Amendment of Rules (DAR/60), in terms
    of the Customs and Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).

(h)     Government Notice No R. 943  published in Government Gazette No
    32609 dated 29 September 2009: Amendment of Rules (DAR/61), in
    terms of the Customs and Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).

(i)     Government Notice No R. 932  published in Government Gazette No
    32593 dated 23 September 2009: Amendment of Rules (DAR/59), in
    terms of the Customs and Excise Act, 1964 (Act No 91 of 1964).

COMMITTEE REPORTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. Report of the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence [JSCI] on the appointment of the Inspector General of Intelligence Services in terms of Section 7(1) of the Intelligence Services Oversight Act, 40 of 1994, dated 10 November 2009:

The request by the Minister of State Security for the National Assembly to recommend a person for appointment as Inspector General of Intelligence Services was referred to the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence on 7 August 2009.

Advertisements calling for nominations were placed in both national and regional newspapers on 11 September 2009. Due to limited number of applications the Committee decided to extend the process by readvertising in both national and regional newspapers on 9 October 2009 with the closing date being 19 October 2009. This included the adverts broadcasting on radio stations from 12 October 2009 to 3 November 2009.

A total of 74 applications were received. The following five candidates were subsequently short listed on 4 November 2009 and interviewed on 10 November 2009:

1.      Mr Barry Phillip Gilder
2.      Mr Silumko Solomon Sokupa
3.      Mr Joseph Kotane
4.      Adv Faith Doreen Radebe
5.      Mr Dennis Thokozani Dlomo

After deliberating the Committee recommends that the following person be considered and approved by the House for the appointment by the President as the Inspector General of Intelligence Services:

Adv Faith Doreen Radebe.

The Committee wishes to thank all the applicants for the positive response to the advertisement. It is especially appreciative of those who made themselves available for the interviews.

Report to be considered.

NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES

CREDA INSERT PAGES 1576-1588