Mr. Chairman, the position here is that the department is unfortunately unable to accept this recommendation. Accordingly I move—

Mr. Chairman, I am gravely disturbed and gravely disappointed that the hon. the Deputy Minister is not able to accept the recommendation of the Select Committee in respect of Dr. Tate. I believe that the department and the hon. the Deputy Minister are placing undue emphasis on legal technicalities and precedents, where the point at issue in this recommendation by the Select Committee is a moral one. It is a moral obligation which the Government owes to this gentleman. I do not think the facts of the case are in dispute at all. The facts of the case were accepted by the Select Committee. They were accepted by the Department of Health, in which department Dr. Tate is employed, and they were accepted by the Department of Social Welfare and Pensions. That is as far as the facts are concerned. I think the House should know what those facts are.

Prior to December, 1969, Dr. Tate was employed by the Cape Provincial Department of Hospital Services, and in that employment he had the right to choose to retire at the age of 60, although the normal retiring age in the Provincial Administration is 65. This is a right to which Dr. Tate attached, and still attaches, a great deal of value for personal reasons, those personal reasons being irrelevant to the consideration of this case. For more than a year prior to December, 1969, the Department of Health in Pretoria had indicated to Dr. Tate that they would like him to transfer from the Cape Provincial Hospital Services to the Department of Health, and to assume psychiatric duties at Valkenberg Mental Hospital. Dr. Tate himself was quite willing to accept this transfer, but the stumbling block, of which Dr. Tate was fully aware, was that if he accepted this transfer, he would lose his right to retire at the age of 60. For that reason, until December, 1969, he refused this transfer because he was not prepared to be transferred and to lose this right, which he already had, to retire at 60.

In about October, 1969, when Dr. Tate was Superintendent of Victoria Hospital in Wynberg, he received a telephone call from the Department of Health in Pretoria, again offering him this transfer to psychiatric duties at Valken berg Hospital, and giving him a clear undertaking that if he accepted transfer he would retain his right to retire at the a e of 60. This undertaking by the Department of Health was confirmed by the Superintendent of the Valkenberg Hospital, and on the basis of that undertaking Dr. Tate agreed to the transfer. On 15th December, 1969, a letter was written to Dr. Tate in which this undertaking to him was confirmed in writing. You can imagine, Mr. Chairman, the dismay of this gentleman when, in April, 1970, he received a letter from the Department of Health in which he was advised that the undertaking that he could retire at 60 had been erroneously given to him, and that it was null and void. I should like to emphasize to this Committee that Dr. Tate only accepted this transfer on the basis of the undertaking given to him by the Department of Health, an undertaking which was confirmed in writing. The Select Committee, in reaching its decision, clearly understood these facts and decided that its recommendation should be such that the undertaking by the Government to Dr. Tate would be honoured.

Sir, in the whole of my life I have accepted a man’s word as his bond. Particularly have I accepted a man’s word as his bond when that man has been a senior civil servant, and the word has been given to a person of responsibility such as Dr. Tate. I believe that there is not a single member in this House who would be party to the breaking of promises that would be entailed if this undertaking is not honoured. I believe that if it is not honoured, there will have been perpetrated a great miscarriage of justice. I appeal to the hon. the Deputy Minister to withdraw his objection to this recommendation of the Select Committee.

Sir, I would like to support the hon. member for Constantia in his appeal to the hon. the Deputy Minister to withdraw his objection to this particular recommendation. I think we must bear in mind that this senior official only had one avenue of appeal. His only recourse is a petition to this House. I think the petitioner acknowledges the fact that in terms of the regulations and of the Act as it stands, his right to retain the retiring age of 60 years was forfeited when he joined the Public Service Pension Fund. However, I think we must bear in mind the information that was placed before the Select Committee on Pensions, a Select Committee of this House, which has to consider reports from the various departments concerned, and weigh the evidence which is placed before it before coming to a decision. In this case the Select Committee came to the decision to make the recommendation which is now before this Committee and in terms of which this senior official will retain his right to retire at the age of 60 years of age.

I think it is important to bring to the notice of this Committee the fact that at no stage was his statement refuted that he had been advised erroneously in regard to his right to retain this pension benefit. Indeed, the letter of transfer written to him, dated 15th December, 1969, clearly indicated that he would retain his right to retire at 60 years of age. This was then rectified in a letter addressed to Dr. Tate, dated 17th April, 1970, by the Department of Health, stating that he had been erroneously informed in his letter of transfer dated 15th December, 1969. This means, Sir, that this man was under the impression when he was transferred that he would be able to retain the right to retire at 60. He accepted the transfer on that basis in all good faith. His right to retire at the age of 60 years whilst he was in the employ of the Cape Provincial Administration came about when he purchased a pensionable service of some 3½ years. This then gave him the right to retire at 60 years of age.

It is quite obvious that this man would not have accepted transfer if he knew that he would not retain that right. It is also quite clear that the Deputy Minister has objected to this recommendation on the ground that it would create a precedent. I submit that all these cases which are referred to the Select Committee on Pensions are dealt with on their merits, and I doubt whether there could be a large number of officials who, when they were transferred from provincial service to the Government service, were erroneously informed of their retirement right at the time of the transfer, in other words, who find themselves in exactly the same circumstances as this particular gentleman. I believe that if the acceptance of the Select Committee’s recommendation would create a precedent, and if in fact there is a large number of similar cases, then it certainly reflects on the administration of the departments concerned.

The evidence which was placed before the Select Committee influenced the Committee in arriving at its decision, which is now before this Committee in the form of a recommendation, and I do hope that the hon. the Deputy Minister will see his way clear to allow this recommendation to stand. His acceptance of this recommendation would in no way prejudice other petitions which may be submitted to this House, as they would obviously be dealt with on their merits by the Select Committee on Pensions.

Sir, I want to make it very clear that it is, of course, not the department’s attitude towards Dr. Tate, as Dr. Tate, that is at issue here. It is a principle that is at issue here. The facts as furnished by the hon. member for Constantia are correct to some extent, and to some extent they are disputed. I just want to tell him why we dispute them. The position is that Dr. Tate was employed by the Provincial Administration. Then he approached the department and asked what his position would be if he should be transferred to the Public Service. Dr. Tate was told very clearly that if he should do this, he would fall under the ordinary pension fund regulation applicable to all public servants after June 1955, i.e. that he would only be able to retire at the age of 65. This information was given to Dr. Tate, and he acknowledged it in a letter dated June, 1968, which he addressed to the Director of Hospital Services and in which the following sentence occurs—

[Interjections.] Just give me a chance; then you can say something too. This was before he transferred. In other words, he transferred knowing full well what the position was. The Select Committee which sat on this matter received a report by the Department of Health in which he served. In this report the following is stated—

Now the problem is that the department feels that if we do not oppose this matter in principle, it is going to place this gentleman in a much more favourable position than several thousands of other officials who became members of the Public Service Pension Fund after 22nd June, 1955. Under those circumstances the department felt that it could not make an exception here for Dr. Tate. I just want to tell hon. members further that this hon. gentleman made a similar request to the Select Committee in 1971 and that it was refused; in 1972 he again made a similar request to the Select Committee and that, too, was refused, and this year he made a request again, and now it had been granted. Unfortunately my department is unable on principle to accept this recommendation, and I therefore ask that it be refused.

I think the principle involved in this matter is one of far greater importance in relation to the individual concerned, Dr. Tate, than on the basis on which the Deputy Minister puts the matter. The hon. the Deputy Minister has strengthened the reasons for Dr. Tate having the benefit of the undertaking given to him by the Secretary for Health. What did he do? He was informed in 1968, from what the hon. the Deputy Minister has told us, as to what would be the consequences if he joined the Public Service, so he refused to go. He refused to go to the Valkenberg Hospital because of the consequences of which he was made aware. What happened next? He was again approached and he was again urged to join and to serve at Valkenberg, and he said: “The position is that I want to retain my rights to retire at the age of 60. ”So the Secretary for Health wrote to him in December, 1969, and said it was all right, he could retire at the age of 60. The hon. the Deputy Minister, surely, as a lawyer, will not contest the position that a person holding the office of Secretary for Health, a person who is empowered to make appointments, has the implied authority as far as anybody he deals with in the Public Service is concerned, to set the terms of his employment, especially in this case where Dr. Tate knew the danger. He knew what would happen and he asked specifically for an assurance. The assurance was given by the Secretary for Health, who employed him.

Confirmed in writing.

Yes, confirmed in writing in December, 1969. If there is any principle to be accepted, it is that the implied authority of the Secretary for Health should at least be recognized by the Government, that it should honour that undertaking by the Secretary for Health, whether he was acting ultra vires or intra vires. That is the principle in this case. I believe that the hon. the Deputy Minister has only read a portion of the letter dated August, 1968. I understand that was when Dr. Tate refused to accept transfer from the provincial administration because of that very fact. He was then induced to accept transfer. He was induced to serve the central Government by the undertaking and assurance given by the Secretary for Health.

The hon. the Deputy Minister says that the recommendation of the Select Committee puts Dr. Tate in a more favoured position than other public servants. What are the facts which the hon. the Deputy Minister has given us? Dr. Tate was in fact in so far as the Department of Health was concerned doing it a favour in filling a post where his services were urgently required. He did not choose it. He was quite happy in his service with the provincial administration, but he was approached to come to serve at the Valkenberg Mental Hospital. He then decided to take up such employment after he had received a written undertaking, a written assurance by the Secretary for Health. But the hon. the Deputy Minister says there is no principle involved other than that this should be refused because it will put Dr. Tate in a favoured position.

I want to appeal to the hon. the Deputy Minister, because I think that in the light of the circumstances of the case, it is a case which stands on its own. It is a case in which Dr. Tate is entitled to the benefits which flow from his appointment with the assurances he received from the Secretary for Health.

Mr. Chairman, I want to tell the hon. member for Green Point that as a lawyer I am quite aware of the fact that when a person is told something in writing he is entitled to react to it. However, I say that the Department of Health is disputing that fact. The Department of Health says in its report to the Select Committee that it never told Dr. Tate that he would be able to retire at the age of 60.

Was there a letter?

There was no letter. I asked whether there had been a letter. I have Dr. Tate’s petition here, as well as a report by the Secretary for Health, and I quote from the report as follows—

There you are!

Please. The hon. member should give me the opportunity to read out the letter before he starts shouting, for then he will find out that he should not have shouted—

There is not a single word here about bis reaching the age of retirement at 60. Not a word was said to that man about his being able to retire at 60. For that reason I say that it is impossible for my department to make a concession in this regard, since the facts are disputable, and particularly since it is a principle which involves thousands of public servants. If the facts had been undisputed, our attitude might have been different. It is not possible for my department to concede to such a request where the facts are disputed, since it is a very important principle which affects thousands of public servants.

Where is his letter of appointment?

May I ask the hon. the Deputy Minister a question? Will the hon. the Deputy Minister read the letter that was allegedly sent erroneously?

May I add a further question? Will the hon. the Deputy Minister read the whole letter dated August, 1968?

Do you have the letter?

No, the 1968 letter from which you read an extract.

I do not have the letter in my possession.

You quoted from it.

I read an extract. Do you want me to read the extract again?

No, the letter.

What letter? I told the hon. member that I do not have the letter in my hands. It is a letter which was written by the Department of Health and I do not have that at hand. The Department of Health denied in the Select Committee that this was so.

The 1968 letter.

I read the letter:

It was quite clearly said.

Go on!

I read further:

[Interjections.] This is a letter he wrote. There is no letter from the department confirming it.

Where is the department’s letter?

He posed the question here and the department said that they never gave him such an assurance.

Where is the letter? [Interjections.]

Order!

The department categorically denied that they told this gentleman that he could retire at the age of 60 … [Interjections.]

Where is the letter of appointment?

I can only supply the facts which have been placed before the Select Committee. My department objects in principle and the facts are as stated here. I cannot do more than that. It is for the member who tabled this petition to table all the letters relevant to the petition as well. On the facts which have been put before this House, my department is unable to accede to this.

May I ask the hon. the Deputy Minister a question? Is it impossible to get hold of the letter of appointment of Dr. Tate and to read it out?

Mr. Chairman, I would like to make use of the opportunity of reading to this House the relevant paragraph of Dr. Tate’s letter of appointment, dated 15th December, 1969, which was signed by the Secretary for Health. This letter was addressed to Dr. J. W. Tate. Paragraph 2, which refers to his pension position, reads as follows—

It is that last sentence that refers to his right to retire at the age of 60. The letter received by Dr. Tate, also from the Secretary of Health, of 17th April, 1970, reads: “In pursuance of paragraph 2 …" which is the paragraph that I have read—

I submit that that was a clear undertaking by the Department of Health in regard to Dr. Tate’s right to retire at the age of 60. Even if it was erroneously given, the department and the State should stand by that undertaking.

Mr. Chairman, I am glad that the hon. member has now read that particular letter which has been asked for, for in my humble opinion the question which is dealt with there is the question of whether the hon. gentleman can buy service, and it has nothing to do with his age of retirement as such. In the letter I have read out here the hon. gentleman asked the department very clearly whether he could remain in the service up to the age of 60. He himself clearly says that he understands that if he transfers he will have to remain in the service up to the age of 65.

Did he transfer?

Yes, he did. He transferred after having acknowledged this.

But after the other assurance.

That assurance was in the vaguest terms … and I want to make it very clear, if hon. members would give me the chance, that the department has nothing whatsoever against Dr. Tate. We have said, and that is our standpoint, that on the information that was submitted to the Select Committee we had no other choice than to object in principle to granting this kind of retrospective pension benefit. We cannot allow it, for there are thousands of public servants who have to work until they are 65 years old. The moment this application is granted it will mean that other public servants will have the right to say, and quite rightly too, that the Select Committee has in fact granted it in the case of Dr. Tate and that they want the same benefits. We would have no option and it would completely disrupt our whole payments position in the fund. Consequently we cannot allow it.

Mr. Chairman, I cannot quite follow the hon. the Deputy Minister’s argument that there will be thousands of persons who will come forward to make similar claims. The hon. the Deputy Minister says there is a matter of the principle involved here. Certainly as far as this official is concerned, it is a matter of principle in that he was advised in 1968 what the consequences would be if he transferred to the Department of Health. He declined to transfer to the Department of Health. He was subsequently advised that he would still have the right to elect to contribute to the Public Servants’ Pension Fund in respect of his provincial pensionable service. Here the Department of Health indicated in its letter of April, 1970, that that letter of December, 1969, at the time of his transfer, was erroneous. This was some time after the man had made his decision, and consequently it was too late for him to transfer back to the Cape Provincial Pension Fund, where in any event he would also not have been able to retire at the age of 60. He was then placed in the position that he had to come to this House to ask whether his case could be considered. The fact his previous petitions failed is, to my mind, of no consequence and not relevant. The constitution of that Select Committee varies from session to session, and other facts and new evidence are brought in by petitioners which could result in a decision of the Select Committee being changed. Indeed, in this particular case, with the evidence placed before that Select Committee this year, it was felt by the Committee that a pledge had been given to the petitioner and that that should be honoured. It was felt that this would not in any way create a precedent as indicated by the Deputy Minister of Social Welfare and Pensions. The danger he mentioned of thousands of people coming forward seeking similar relief because of similar circumstances is not an argument. This man has a case and he put it forward, and on the evidence in the reports that was were placed before the Select Committee, the Select Committee considered that this man should have his plea granted. It is a great pity that the hon. the Deputy Minister is unable to accept this recommendation which comes as a majority decision by the Select Committee on Pensions.

Question put and the Committee divided:

Tellers: S. F. Kotzé, J. E. Potgieter, P. C. Roux and G. P. van den Berg.

Tellers: A. Hopewell and J. O. N. Thompson.

Question accordingly agreed to.

House Resumed:

Resolutions reported.

Mr. Chairman, I move—

Agreed to.

Mr. Chairman, our experience yesterday was that several hon. members were expressing their concern about over-population in respect of the Coloureds in the Peninsula. I also just want to state this point briefly by telling the Minister that there are parts in the Western Cape where there is also a prevailing concern because there is a large Coloured population that cannot be employed. I want to ask the Minister whether he would not help the Municipality of Worcester to make progress in that connection in their negotiations with the Decentralization Board concerning the location of industries based on Coloured labour. I can give him examples of cases where Coloureds have come by the hundreds to apply to industrialists in the town for work. We would not like them to move away to the city, because here there is already an over-population problem. With the exception of a few hon. members, i.e. the hon. members for Turffontein, Port Natal, Bezuidenhout and Wynberg, it seems to me as if the majority of hon. members opposite, who have taken part in this debate, are quite slowly beginning to realize that the Government has good intentions as far as the Coloureds are concerned. Although the hon. members for Wynberg and Bezuidenhout did not take part in the debate, we know their standpoints. Except for those four hon. members, hon. members opposite are beginning to display a greater degree of realism with respect to the tremendous task this Government is engaged in and with respect to the upliftment of the Coloureds in the economic and other spheres. They realize that the Government is engaged in a great task of upliftment in the spheres of education, social services and also in the economic and political spheres. But these four hon. members, to whom I referred, remind me of the adage: “None is so blind as those who will not see.” These four hon. members are apparently wearing political blinkers and refuse to perceive that, in the years that have passed, this Government has made tremendous strides in its educative task and with respect to its political achievements and the political guidance given to the Coloureds. We could mention long lists of achievements in the sphere of education. We could tell them of technical colleges, schools, universities, etc. We could tell them of social and economic upliftment. They know the facts, but they are blind because they do not want to see. I think the time has come for hon. members of the Opposition and particuarly the four I have mentioned, to stop with their game of telling the Coloureds that this Government is doing them an injustice, that this Government is discriminating against them, that this Government is giving them inhuman treatment and that this Government begrudges them any human rights. I think the time has come for the hon. member for Wynberg to be told that she must stop speaking as she has done in the past. I am referring to Hansard, column 8374 of 1972, where she stated that the Coloureds are bitterly disillusioned and that the Government has manifested an overwhelming vote of no-confidence in our Coloured people and their leaders. The time has come for these people to stop giving the Coloureds negative guidance; the time has come for these four hon. members to also act as true gentlemen and to tell the Coloured leaders that they have a positive task to carry out. There are, of course, Coloured leaders who do not agree with us. I regret to say this, but it appears to me as if the hon. members for Port Natal, Wynberg and Bezuidenhout, in particular, rather speak to those persons than to those who think positively in respect of their own people. A true leader is not the front rank protester; a true leader is the person who gives positive guidance to his people.

The hon. member for Wynberg has said that the Coloureds have been disillusioned. Sir, when does a person become disillusioned? This happens when certain promises are made to one by one’s friends and when one is subsequently disappointed because those promises are not kept. We can rightfully say that this Government has never made any promises to the Coloureds which it has not kept. I think that this Government has taken a very straight, honest and sincere course as far as the Coloureds are concerned. Can we also say as much about the hon. members of the Opposition? Do you know, Sir, why the Coloured leaders, with whom the hon. member for Wynberg associates, have been disillusioned? I think those people have been disillusioned because she promises them full citizenship; because she promises them equal civic rights, equal political and social rights. She promises this, Sir, and then her party comes along and say: “No, that is not the United Party’s policy,” and then they come along with a federation policy in which the Coloureds would have such a faint voice politically and would be subservient to the Whites or the Bantu in that federal parliament for many years to come.

What do you give them?

Sir, the hon. member for Turffontein has asked the question which he is frequently inclined to ask. He asks what we offer them. I have just said that we could show him long lists of achievements that have already been furnished in this connection by the Government.

May I put a question?

No, the hon. member had a chance to make a speech yesterday. Sir, if there is a party, if there is a government, which can say to the Coloureds with sincerity and pride: “This is our policy; we are taking you along this road,” then it is this Party and this Government. We have no reason to be ashamed. What is more important: Social upliftment, job opportunities, or just a political voice? I think that the educational task we are engaged in, as far as the Coloureds are concerned, their social and economic upliftment throughout the years, are worth much more to them than an empty promise, by the United Party, of a political voice which, under their federal policy, they will never be able to give the Coloureds.

Sir, yesterday the hon. member for Turffontein said here: “We are close to losing the goodwill of the Coloured community.” Sir, if he really knows the Coloured community—and I am now speaking of the members of the Coloured community and of the Coloured leaders who think positively, who are not bent on negative criticism—I think he will agree with me when I say that he does not know what he is talking about. It is a fact, of course, that there are Coloured leaders who do not agree with this Government. We call them the protesters. But there are many other Coloureds, large numbers of them, who gratefully co-operate every day and are trying to go along with this Government in the direction which promises something good, something big for the Coloured population for years to come. Sir, I am saying that we can present long lists of achievements. I can tell you here of the decision of the Government on 11th January, 1973—this is only one of many achievements—to make an additional amount of R21 million available to the administration of Coloured affairs for its school building programme. Sir, R21 million for the next four years is a tremendous amount of money. Here I do not want to fling reproaches at hon. members opposite and remind them of what they had to offer in respect of Coloured education in the days when they still had political authority. Slapdash schools, or no schools at all, were the lot of the Coloureds in those days. If I were to dwell on education, Sir, I could tell you of the technical colleges at which almost 3 000 Coloureds are studying today; I could mention to you the advanced technical training at the technical college in the Peninsula, where almost 600 Coloureds are receiving post-school training. Sir, we could point out to you that according to the Minister of Coloured Affairs, 97,4% of all eleven year old Coloureds are at school today and that 94,2% of all twelve year old Coloureds are at school today. We could tell of the establishment of a University for Coloureds; we could tell of the attempts at rehabilitation of those addicted to alcohol; we could tell of our training of young Coloureds as sailors; we could speak of our youth camps for Coloureds. Sir, I could mention a long string of things—positive steps taken by this Government throughout the years. I repeat that fortunately there are members on that side of the House who are beginning to realize this, but those four hon. members must take off their blinkers and realize what the Government is doing and co-operate with the Government in the interests of the Coloureds. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Worcester will forgive me if I do not follow his argument, which was one relating to the Coloured people generally; because I want to deal with the Coloured people of Natal and a group of people there known as the Dunn community in particular. They are a group of people, Sir, whose circumstances are quite different from those of the Coloured people elsewhere in this country. They are indeed a community indigenous to Natal and to Zululand in particular, and they are a group of people whose cause has been pleaded here every year in the 12 years that I have been in this House, either by the hon. member for South Coast or by myself; and the tragedy of this group of people is that one makes so little progress on their behalf. As you know, Sir, the land which these people occupy, together with a whole lot of others who are not entitled to it, was promised to them by an Act of this Parliament some 40 years ago. It is not quite 40 years ago, but very nearly so. Year after year pleas have been made on their behalf but, as I have said, regrettably very little progress has been made. I have now debated this issue with, I think, three separate Ministers of Coloured Affairs, and I do hope that with the Minister who now holds this office some progress will be made. Sir, in terms of the recent consolidation proposals relating to KwaZulu, which I will obviously not go into in any detail at all, one can at least say in respect of those proposals—and it is about the only good thing that comes out of them—that the area occupied by the Dunn community is proposed to be demarcated as White, which means presumably that the Coloured people will be able to remain where they are. Together with that, Sir, there has been some slight progress in the sense that instead of placing them within the jurisdiction of a magisterial district of KwaZulu, the area in which they live—in both places—has been excised and they are to remain, for magisterial purposes, under the jurisdiction of the Republican Department of Justice. But at that point, Sir, any progress in respect of these people ends. The key to their situation is the refusal to grant them title to the land which has been promised them by legislation, land which has not only been promised by legislation passed by this House, but which has already been surveyed. All that is required is that the promise which the Prime Minister has given in respect of these people, in addition to the legislation, should be carried out. Sir, what is the hardship which stems from this situation? It is not only the fact that they do not own the land, which is rightfully theirs, and that they cannot deal with it, but in every respect it is an economic hindrance to them. A four-lane highway of national road standard is about to be pushed through that community. Any owner of land, faced with those circumstances and, having a substantial portion of his land taken away for a national highway, is paid compensation. But, Sir, because these people have not got title to the land, they are not entitled to claim that compensation. I know that I have made representations to the relevant authorities in this regard and an assurance has been given that some device will be sought to enable compensation money to be kept in some way or another so that these people can ultimately claim it; but that in itself is not sufficient. Most of these people are sugar farmers. We are living in an era, Sir, so far as the sugar industry is concerned, where increased quotas can be worked for and obtained, but without title to the land on which they are farming, these people are in an invidious position so far as the improvement of their farms by the acquisition of additional quotas is concerned. These are merely two of the difficulties under which these people labour. There are Native squatters on their land. Week by week and month by month, from the Midlands of Natal and elsewhere, as Natives are moved off the White-owned farms, they come down and squat on this land of the Dunns because at the moment it is still scheduled Native area in terms of the law. The administrative officials in charge seem to be powerless to prevent this squatting from taking place. I know of instances where some of these people on the Dunns’ land, the Coloured people, have ploughed their property, property which is demarcated for them, for the purpose of planning cane, but the Natives move in and plant their own crops of mealies and potatoes, and the result of course is that the Coloured man suffers harm. Over and over again one gets a situation of this kind which has been pleaded for in this House year after year and yet no progress has been made. I do ask, now that the question is firmly before him, that this hon. Minister will take steps to see that justice is done to these people.

Then I wish to deal with the Coloured people in general, not only the Dunn community but the Coloured people in general in Zululand. The hon. the Minister will know that they may occupy areas like the suburb of Sunnydale and other places, and although they may be indigenous to Zululand they can occupy there and they can work there only in terms of permits from his department. In respect of the tremendous development at Richards Bay, where you cannot get White workmen in the skilled and semi-skilled categories, because they are simply not available, a lot of this work is done by Coloured people. The position there is that a camp has been set aside where the employers, the contractors, can build accommodation for their Coloured workmen, but it can only be bachelor accommodation. They may not bring in their families and they are apparently to go on living there indefinitely as single men, even though they may have families settled elsewhere. The result of course is that you are going to have immorality on a large scale. You have it there already. You have already in the local hospital a considerable increase in the incidence of venereal disease, and so you have a thoroughly unsatisfactory situation from both the sociological and every other point of view. I wonder whether the hon. the Minister would, during the course of this debate, give an indication of what his attitude is to the position of Coloured people outside the Dunn community in so far as their working and living in Zululand is concerned. I believe that the time has come for a more realistic view to be taken of this situation. Everybody with whom I have contact, of all political persuasions, believes that a group area should be established within the Richards Bay municipality, which is an enormous stretch of country, largely undeveloped, on the lines of Sunnydale near Eshowe where proper family housing can be established for the Coloured people who are to work in this fast-growing centre. We cannot view these people there as temporary. They are there for as long as Richards Bay develops, for the simple reason that you cannot get White workmen to do this type of work anywhere in Natal and least of all in Richards Bay. Now, in respect of both the Dunn community, who are a peculiar community, and the rest of the Coloured people in Zululand, I believe it is time that they had the hon. the Minister’s attention.

I hope the hon. member for Zululand will excuse me if I do not follow up on what he has said. I should like to take the opportunity of saying a few words about the area in South-West Africa which is situated in my constituency and which also falls under the hon. the Minister of Coloured Relations and Rehoboth Affairs, i.e. Namaland. I now find it gratifying to state that I see that progress has been made with the agricultural planning in the northern portion of Namaland, according to the annual report which we obtained yesterday from the department, three-quarters of the area already having been planned for better farming methods. We want to tell the Minister that we are very grateful that he has made so much progress, but we want to ask him whether it is not possible to go faster, because these people, as you know, have been farming there in a very primitive manner throughout the years. I want to ask whether more guidance could not be given to them so that they may make better use of their farms and their land. It was also gratifying to see that the quality of their products has improved considerably. I notice that the average price of the pelts which they produced has increased from R3-50 to R5 over the past few years. We realize however that there is still a great task ahead for this department to get those people to the point of making the best economic use of the area they inhabit and the land they have at their disposal.

I now come to a matter which I have also discussed already with the hon. the Minister’s predecessor. I was part of a deputation which consulted the hon. the Minister about that—petitions were also handed to the Minister. I am referring to the boundary fences between the White area and Namaland. Namaland is surrounded by proclaimed jackalproof areas which are free of wild animals. Namaland is still full of wild animals and the White farmers are in the position of having to maintain the boundaries alone and keeping their farms free of wild animals. This entails extensive costs to the farmers and frequently the farmers also suffer great losses. The farmers are also faced with the problem that people are forever climbing over the wire fences. The non-Whites climb over those fences regularly. It is very easy to steal a karakul lamb. If I must use the word, let me say that it is one of the easiest things in the world to steal a karakul lamb. The farmers consequently suffer great losses. This state of affairs does not, of course, promote good human relations between the White farmers and the inhabitants of Namaland. [Interjections.]

If that hon. member comes to South-West Africa one day I want to ask him to go and view the Brandberg, because the only thing he would be interested in is that rock carving that looks very much like him. That is about all he would know of South-West Africa. We are now dealing with things that are of importance to those people. We also know that the hon. the Minister is doing his share as far as those people are concerned.

There is a jackalproof fence around Namaland and the farmers’ request at the time to the hon. the Minister’s predecessor was that an improved fence should be erected with the assistance of the State. What they envisaged was a proper jackalproof fence with a wire coping on top so that one could make sure that wild animals would not climb over and also that people would not climb over the fence to commit thefts within the White area. We know that thefts are frequently committed in areas situated along the borders of non-White areas. I think that hon. members who represent Free State constituencies would be able to elaborate on that much more. As I have already said, such a situation does not promote better human relations. I therefore want to ask the hon. the Minister to investigate this matter again so that it can be determined whether the State cannot also contribute a share towards a more efficient fence being constructed round Namaland. That is my representation in this connection.

I also want to say something about Rehoboth. I am glad to note from the report that the Rehoboth Investment Corporation which we established a few years ago by means of legislation, is doing such good work and is showing progress in spite of the opposition to the corporation that exists on the part of the Basters. There is still a large degree of suspicion amongst the Basters as far as the investment corporation is concerned. I recently spoke to members of the board of directors and they informed me that they are making very rapid progress. We are grateful for the fact that we have those kinds of directors there who give up their time to do that work amongst the people.

I am also glad that progress has been made with the conversion of the Tsumis farm into a breeding farm where rams and bulls are bred so that the needs of the Basters can be provided for. We are very glad that to date it has already been possible to furnish so many of these animals to the Baster farmers. By means of this breeding station we shall succeed in making it unnecessary for these people to compete with the Whites in that it will not be necessary for them to go and buy karakul rams at auctions in the White areas. We want to express the hope that that breeding station at Tsumeb will produce sufficient rams and bulls to provide for the needs of the Rehoboth farmers in the foreseeable future.

Then I want to ask the hon. the Minister how far the planning has progressed as far as the Rehoboth township area is concerned. In the report which has been tabled I see that progress has been made in that the necessary aerial photographs of the Rehoboth township have already been taken and that the contour plan is now being prepared, subsequent to which the actual planning will take place. I want to ask the Minister whether those people are still vehemently opposed to development. In addition I want to tell the hon. the Minister that if there is opposition, it is my humble opinion—I am now speaking from the experience I have had of those people from the ’thirties—that the department must simply continue with the planning because it is only to the advantage of those people that that planning be done. As hon. members know, the main road from South-West Africa passes Rehoboth. It is very unsightly. As hon. members know, almost all the people of Rehoboth work in Windhoek and only live on week-ends at Rehoboth. Consequently nothing is happening in Rehoboth. It is completely unsightly for tourists and travellers to drive past a place that looks the way Rehoboth does. Notwithstanding the fact that these Rehoboth people do not want to know anything about apartheid, they implement apartheid amongst their own people. Absolute chaos prevails, and I want to ask the department to shift away from the road, as quickly as possible, the residential area of the Nama section which is employed by Rehoboth Basters. I think it is scandalous for such a slum area to be situated on the main highway. It actually makes one think of what it looked like in the United Party days. I want to state further that one must begin to bring it home, in a nice way, to these Rehoboth Basters who are so clever, that the things being done by the South African Government are to their advantage. It is not only to the advantage of the non-Whites, but it is high time that they began to realize that it is in no one’s interest in South Africa, not in their own, not in the interests of the Whites, nor in the interests of the other Coloured groups, for them to adopt the attitude which they are adopting in opposition to the Government at present. The sooner they begin to realize that the Whites also have a right in South-West Africa and that the Whites are there to stay permanently, the better would it be for the coexistence of all people in South-West Africa. The Whites are there, not only to stay, but also to ensure that all the other people who are there will remain there and make a living with human dignity. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I do not intend to discuss apartheid in South-West Africa and the apartheid of the Rehoboth Basters nor the integration of the other non-Whites in their economy. That I leave to the Minister himself. But I want to follow on the discussion by the hon. member for Zululand who dealt with the position of Coloureds in Zululand. I wish to deal with the Coloureds in the Transkei. I have raised the question of the Coloureds in the Transkei from time to time and unfortunately their position remains as unsatisfactory as it ever was. In 1967 we had quite a lengthy debate on the Coloureds of the Transkei. When I raised their position with the then Minister of Coloured Affairs he told me it was not his problem and that that problem fell under the hon. the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development. Of course, I do not agree with that as I contend that it is the duty of the hon. the Minister of Coloured Affairs to look after the Coloureds who are resident in the Transkei. People do not realize how many Coloureds there are in the Transkei. In 1967 the then Minister of Coloured Affairs told me in this House that there were 10 000 at that stage. I thought there were more but nevertheless that was the number given of Coloureds living in the Transkei at that stage. They largely perform the same duties as the Coloureds in Zululand which was referred to by the hon. member for Zululand. They are the artisan type. Of course the Minister will know that there is great development now in the Transkei as far as buildings are concerned, and that Coloureds are supplying the labour. The position is that there are Coloureds living in the White towns and villages in the Transkei, as well as in the rural or Bantu areas. These fall under the jurisdiction of the Transkei Government. I want to know from the hon. the Minister whether he would tell us what plans he has for the Coloureds living in the Transkei. We know from statements made by the hon. the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development that the Coloureds are in the same position as the Whites and that eventually they must leave the Transkei. What is to happen to them? We know that some years ago an attempt was made to bring them down to Cape Town and to give them employment down here. They were given free travel facilities, but the scheme failed. We know, too, that there are Coloureds in the Transkei who can afford to leave and to establish themselves elsewhere and buy property, but one of the difficulties has been to know where to go, where they will be able to buy property and where there will be work for them. I will deal with this particular problem just now. The position of the Coloureds living in the villages is that in a few cases they own their own property, or otherwise they occupy properties which they hire from White owners. The White owners are selling out rapidly in the villages, in Umtata and in the areas which are zoned for Africans. The Coloureds are placed in the position that they are forced to leave. Some of them are allowed to stay, but others are given notice to leave. Now, where do they go? There is no provision in the Transkei for them; there is no area zoned for occupation by Coloured people. There is no area zoned in Umtata for Coloured occupation. I know there have been discussions with the municipality, but I would like to know from the hon. the Minister if he can tell us what provision is being made for accommodating the Coloureds in Umtata especially, and also in the rest of the Transkei. When I raised this question in 1967, the then Minister said that the Department of Labour in collaboration with the Department of Coloured Affairs wanted to start a recruiting campaign to get in touch with the Coloureds in the Transkei with a view to placing them in employment elsewhere, for example in the Western Cape. He also said that they could not do that until they had housing for them and that it was therefore not a matter which could be put right overnight. The Minister of Bantu Administration and Development told us on the same day that he had been consulted by Coloureds in the Transkei to come down here, and that the difficulty was to find housing for them. He said that he had interviews with Coloureds in Umtata and that they were concerned with the individual problem of a certain Coloured who was leaving the Transkei and who had already found himself work at a certain place in the Western Cape, but that he had not yet found accommodation for himself. The Minister said: “The one Coloured who had that problem in regard to accommodation has already availed himself of the offer which we made him the other day, that is to get in touch with us. We are seeing whether he cannot be assisted to get accommodation in the Western Cape.” That is the problem those who want to come down here have in regard to housing. I want the hon. the Minister to give us a comprehensive statement so that the Coloureds in the Transkei will know what the position is, because obviously there must be a procedure they must follow if they want work outside the Transkei. I would like the hon. the Minister to tell me what provision is made for housing for these people.

We have heard a lot of talk lately about educating the Coloureds to play a bigger part in serving their own people and to promote their development. I should also like to ask the hon. the Minister what is done for the education of the Coloureds in the Transkei. I was under the impression that there was no secondary school any more in Kokstad—there are certainly none in the Transkei itself—but I understand that there is still one in Kokstad, or so I am told, although the numbers of scholars have fallen off. It must be an unsatisfactory school otherwise the numbers would not fall off so materially. For the Coloureds in Umtata to get their secondary education, they have to go right down to Humansdorp or Uitenhage, where most of them in fact go. I should like to know from the hon. the Minister if any assistance is given to these Coloureds by way of bursaries for paying boarding fees. What assistance is given to them for better education for their people? In the Transkei itself there are no facilities for them to get secondary education. I do not want the hon. the Minister to tell me that it is not his duty to look after these people, that it is the duty of the Minister of Bantu Administration and Development. The latter certainly has some say in the administration of the Transkei, but I submit that it is the duty of this Minister to see that the people under his charge are properly catered for. I want him to give me a comprehensive statement as to what provisions are made for those Coloureds who wish to leave the Transkei so that I can tell them when I get back, because they always see me when I get back to ask me what has been decided.

Mr. Chairman, I shall not respond to what the hon. member said because I want to express a few other ideas. If there has ever been gratitude for the fact that the Coloureds were removed from the political struggle, the day for that has probably now come, because we are all agreed about that. I think the Coloureds are the most grateful of all because, if that had not happened, the Coloureds would by now have been ground to powder in the political struggle. Now, after 30 years, we are today forced to hear a great many honeyed phrases dropping from hon. members’ lips about the Coloureds. Since this debate began, it has been apparent that the United Party is really playing at being a chameleon, as the Press also puts it. If it is one party during the day, it is another party at night. It changes colour like a chameleon. We want to concede that hon. members opposite have, in fact, thus far furnished positive contributions to this debate, but they cannot help still rousing the feelings between the Brown people and the White people. We cannot imagine what the reason for that is, or whether they have a sound reason for doing so. Each time there are members of the Opposition who mention isolated cases which they use to show that the Government has not done its duty. We are certain that the Government is doing its full duty to all the people in our country. There has never been a Government that has done so much for every human being in South Africa as the National Party Government. We get this acknowledgment from the Coloureds and from the Coloured community. Recently we had the privilege on a certain occasion, when there were thousands of Coloureds gathered in my Prieska constituency, to hear the speech of the regional representative of the Karoo, Mr. Hollander. If hon. members had heard it, they would have noted that a large portion of it dealt with the Protea Club. I just want to quote a few of Mr. Hollander’s words. He said (translation): “The Lord gave us a Dr. Verwoerd, but Lord also took him away again; by a dispensation of Providence the Lord also gave us a John Vorster to rule South Africa for the welfare of all our people that have been placed here.” If we get this kind of evidence, we know that a great deal has, in fact, been done and that the Coloureds are expressing gratitude.

I now want to ask the United Party: How much interest did they show in the Coloured population of South Africa and what progress did they bring the Coloureds when they ruled? We still think of 1948 and 1943 when the Coloureds were driven to the polls by the hundreds, and only for one purpose, i.e. to keep the National Party under. We think of the organization that took place in the North to have every Coloured vote cast against the National Party.

Who brought Bruckner de Villiers here?

When the general election was held in 1948, the National Party won the Victoria West constituency by 24 votes. The United Party then held a post-mortem. The finding was that 24 Coloured voters, who should have voted, nine of whom were on the Botterleegte farm, could not be at the polls in time. That was one cause which they advanced: Their people did not carry out the instructions of the party organization. [Interjections.] I resolved at the time that if the Lord gave me the opportunity I would fling it in their teeth—so chew on that! Today there are still people who are prepared to issue a sworn statement to the effect that at the time they hired people to buy the Coloured vote for the United Party. They blamed the organizers who did that work for the fact that there was still 14 Coloureds whom they could still have registered. If they had done their work, the United Party would have won that constituency.

I want to ask the Minister to make more training opportunities available to the Coloureds, also in our part of the Karoo and in the Northern Cane. The Coloured potential there has already been developed intensively, but I want to ask whether opportunities cannot be created for them to be trained. We have thousands of Coloureds who have developed to a certain level and could be used to the benefit of the others who are still lagging far behind. We know that only a developed and responsible person can hold his own in life. We have such people in the northern parts of the Cape. I do not doubt for a single moment that in future, with the co-operation of local bodies, we shall be able to put right the injustice to Coloureds, as some United Party members call it here, as far as their housing is concerned. Those local authorities will co-operate to prevent things happening which we are sometimes blamed for while it is really not the National Party’s fault.

Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the hon. member who has just sat down and who made a completely negative contribution to the discussion today, remembers the High Court of Parliament and enlarged Senate days as well as the extremes of petty apartheid which still exist in order to destroy the dignity of the very Coloured man for whom he claims his party has done such a great deal.

In talking about local authorities and housing, I would like to ask the hon. the Minister, not wanting to waste my time replying to this hon. member’s negative remarks, whether he is aware of the serious situation which exists with regard to the Coloured people in the city of Johannesburg. Is he aware, for instance, of the projection that has been made, according to which the Coloured population of about 85 000 at the moment, will increase to nearly 150 000 persons, by 1985, approximately 10% of the total population at the time.

Is he aware, for instance, that their rate of growth at this stage is approximately 3,8% per annum as against 3,4% per annum, which is the average growth rate of population throughout the country? I want to ask the hon. the Minister to direct his attention in a very specific way to the plight of these people who are desperately short of housing. Far from being grateful to the Government for what they are doing, these people are already developing a sense of militancy, unhappiness and discontent, which some authorities which deal with these affairs, such as the Johannesburg City Council, feel could even lead to an explosive situation because of the serious overcrowding and lack of satisfactory recreational, cultural and other amenities in the townships where they presently are, and also because of those who are completely homeless and live in odd spots throughout the city. It is a fact, and we are well aware of this, that as far as Alexandra Township is concerned, nearly 400 families were displaced. We know that in the case of a township called Noordgesig, which adjoins Soweto, the Coloured population of more than 1 000 families will shortly have to leave because their houses are to be demolished and replaced by homes for the Soweto people. We are also aware of the fact that some 2 000 houses have to be rebuilt because of an urban renewal scheme in Western Townships, where the houses are now approximately 50 to 55 years old I may say that these houses have stood the test of time remarkably well, under the circumstances. Nevertheless, they must be replaced. It is an absolute fact that at the moment we are short of approximately 9 000 houses for Coloured people in Johannesburg. We base that figure on an average of six persons per family.

But, Sir, the most important and serious aspect of the matter is not just that the Minister’s attention should be directed to the housing requirements. Side by side with that is the question of the normal, general amenities which go with any township for any people. Here we have a people who are very fruitfully occupied in the commercial and industrial life of the community. They are a people who have, in a sense, almost been forgotten as far as the Coloured Affairs Department is concerned, because that department has concentrated its attention largely on the Coloured people in the Cape, where the majority of the Coloured people live. But nevertheless, with a community approaching 100 000, one cannot close one’s eyes to their normal development and to the normal requirements that any community needs if it is to live decently in any city. In the case of this community recreational facilities, facilities for religious purposes, crèches for children, business areas in which these people can conduct their own businesses in their own areas, and other community facilities, are lacking. The city of Johannesburg has played its part with regard to Bosmot particularly, which is fairly well-developed, but that is merely, one might say, a pilot scheme in relation to what is required. It would appear from the figures which have been given to me, and which I understand are absolutely authentic, that at least R6 million per annum will have to be provided in order to build approximately 1 000 to 1 500 homes per annum over the next 12 or 15 years, if we are to overcome the constant shortages and if we are to provide accommodation for families so that they will be decently and properly housed.

Sir, I take the strongest exception, as I have for a long time—and I hope the hon. the Minister will give this some thought—to people being hounded from what are known as the White areas of a city in order to go to where they are supposed to belong, to places where no provision has been made for them. In the human sense this is even moje important than the actual accommodation which is needed, because these people live in a constant state of fear; their lives are clouded at all times by the knowledge that at any moment they may be evicted. I believe that that is the problem which faces us, and I say this in contrast to the negative approach which was adopted by the hon. member who has just spoken.

I would like to say further that what we require today is action. It is a well-known fact that even though the Department of Community Development is responsible for the housing side—and we found this in the case of the Department of Bantu Administration—the Minister in charge of the particular department dealing with the people who have to be housed does play some part in ensuring that action is taken, and that is what we would like the hon. the Minister of Coloured Relations to do. It is quite clear from the speeches that we have heard from hon. members on both sides, except for the hon. member who has just sat down—and I am sorry to be so outspoken, but that is the impression that I got—that in this matter there is a note of urgency on all sides, which I think should impress the hon. the Minister. I hope the hon. the Minister will appreciate that there is this sense of urgency and my appeal to him is to ensure that before people are displaced from areas in which they are living at present, adequate alternative accommodation is provided for them. It should not be a question of displacing people, but rather a question of moving them into better and more congenial quarters.

Mr. Chairman, the only comment I wish to make on the speech just made by the hon. member who has just sat down is that it is clear from what he has said that the policy of the Government of decentralization of industries is the correct one. We cannot keep on expanding in our metropolitan areas; we have to decentralize, and then these problems of overcrowding and congestion and moving of people from one place to another will fall away. If hon. members opposite would support us and help us to execute that policy, I think we will find that it is much cheaper to provide these facilities, for which the hon. member for Jeppes pleaded here, in border areas than it would be in our metropolitan areas such as on the Reef.

Where are the Coloured people going to? We are talking about the Coloureds.

We are not talking about the Bantu.

Sir, I have made my point. As far as the Coloureds are concerned they, too, can become involved in this border area development. There is no reason why they cannot become involved in it.

I should like to make a few other remarks. I see in the annual report of the department that reference is made in paragraph 5.10 to the Peninsula Technical College, Bellville. This Technical College is situated in an area known as Bellville South. It was known as Bellville South when that area was still inhabited by Whites, before the Whites had to vacate that area as a result of the application of the Group Areas Proclamation in terms of which this area was allocated to the Coloureds. But because we in Bellville gladly endorse the policy of the Government, an advisory committee of Coloureds has now been established on the municipal level, and this advisory committee, in its wisdom, has decided that this area, which was commonly known as Bellville South, would in the future be known as Proteaville, and I wonder whether the wishes of this Coloured Advisory Committee should not rather be acknowledged in this report in future. To me this is a step in the right direction; it bears the stamp of the process by which our Coloured communities and our Coloured towns are becoming autonomous. May I also say that Proteaville is going to be a very important town. It is envisaged that it will become one of the first municipalities which will be fully manned by Coloureds. It will be the municipality within the borders of which the Coloured University will be situated; it will be the Coloured municipality accommodating within its borders the seat of the Coloured Council, and I think that it is only right that this Coloured community should have the desire to identify itself with its residential area by way of a new designation which will not create the impression that it is an appendage of the White community of Bellville. For this reason I think that those who draft reports could perhaps also take note of this movement within our Coloured community in the direction of autonomy.

But there is actually another matter I should like to raise here. Two evenings ago I had the opportunity of addressing a group of people outside this House and there I pointed out the necessity for a stimulus to be given by way of the establishment of industries in the Western Cape, to the absorbing of Coloured labour in the Western Cape. On that occasion I referred to certain figures I had obtained from the Department of Statistics, and one of these was, that seen in general, seen in the context of the Greater Boland, in other words, the area this side of the mountains including Worcester, Ceres and Tulbagh, extending to Vredendal, approximately 35% of the Coloured population was economically active. To be precise, the figure is 34.9%. This gave me the figure of 334 250 Coloureds who are actively involved in industry at this stage. I took the same figure and projected it to the expected Coloured population in the same area by the end of the century. You will know, Sir, that it is estimated that by the end of the century there will be 2 414 000 Coloureds within this area. If we maintain the status quo as far as employment is concerned, and if the percentage of economically active Coloureds is still, only 35% by the year 2000, then my finding is that by that time we shall have a Coloured labour force of 844 000 people, or 510 000 more than at present. If I take this figure of 510 000 people and divide it by the 28 years remaining before the end of the century, then I find that in our employment of Coloureds in the Boland we shall have to make provision for 18 200 people annually. It appears to me that my findings in this connection are endorsed to some extent by this report to which I have referred, because in this report reference is made to the fact that 15 000 18-year olds become available every year for registration in terms of the cadet scheme. At this stage 15 000 Coloureds are turning 18 every year. To me this seems correct. This figure must increase progressively and by the end of the century it will no longer be 18 200 people, as my average annual projection states, but quite probably 20 000 or 22 000 people who will have to be absorbed into industry here in the Western Cape and for whom employment will have to be provided. Let me say that it is my standpoint that unless we receive a fairly substantial stimulus, the kind of stimulus we expect by way of the establishment of the ore plant and steel processing industry at Saldanha, this labour will quite probably be absorbed into the service sector, which is manned chiefly by Whites here in the Western Cape; and unless we are able to absorb this Coloured labour into new jobs, we shall to an increasing extent experience the replacement of White labour by Coloured labour here in the Western Cape, and thereby also bring about a disproportion between White and Coloured as far as the whole of the Western Cape is concerned. At present it is already a fact that there are more Coloureds than Whites here in the Western Cape. I think that in some parts the proportion is 2,5 Coloureds to every White person, excepting the Cape Peninsula, and by the end of the century there will be three Coloureds to every White person in this greater area. That is why it is so essential for new employment opportunities to be created and for the White person not to be crowded out.

Now I want to go further. I find in this situation that the one common complaint in regard to the available Coloured labour, a complaint which is a factor and an argument in the matter as to why it is not possible to proceed with the establishment of industries on a large scale in the Western Cape, is the so-called unreliability and indiscipline of Coloured labour. I also find this complaint in this report before us. Just look at the declining figures as far as school attendance is concerned. While there were 95 000 at school in Sub. A last year, one finds that there were only 42 600 in Std. 4 and 9 300 in Std. 8 and only 2 000 in Std. 10, a drop from 95 000 to 2 000 in these ten standards, which is an indication that somewhere there is a lack of discipline, and an inadequate sense of discipline being instilled in the Coloured community, something which must eventually have an effect on discipline in labour as well. [Time expired.]

I want to tell the hon. member for Bellville that we have always advocated industrial decentralization, provided that it rests on an economic basis and not on an ideological one. Then he referred to border industries for the Coloureds. I do not quite understand this statement, unless he has a Colouredstan in mind. I think that it is axiomatic that the Government is not satisfied with its Coloured policy. This is attested to by the appointment of the Erika Theron Commission, which is charged with undertaking a searching investigation into all the facets of the Coloureds and their position in South Africa. Is the Coloured an Afrikaner, as Mr. Chris Barnard, the Hertzog prizewinner, maintains—and the standpoint of the hon. member for Moorreesburg is not very far from that—or are they Brown Afrikaners, as Dawie of Die Burger would have it; or are the Coloureds one of the peoples in South Africa comprising the South African nation, as the United Party maintains? In other words, are they also citizens of the Republic of South Africa? But as for the Government’s present policy of parallel development with a twin parliament, is it going to lead to permanent supremacy, under which the Coloured Parliament will always remain subordinate to the White Parliament, or is a Coloured homeland being envisaged for these people, as I have just said? Sir, I want to suggest that the Erika Theron Commission could perhaps become as much of a milestone on the road of the Coloureds as the Carnegie Commission in the ’twenties was for the White population of South Africa. It will be remembered that in the late ’twenties, from 1924 to 1933, a Nationalist Party Government was in power. It will also be remembered that in those years that Government, just like the present Nationalist Party Government, made something of a mess of our economy. We all remember the débâcle of the gold standard. At that time the Nationalist Party Government was unable to implement various recommendations of the Carnegie Report. It was the United Party Government which had to solve the poor-White problem. I wonder whether history is going to repeat itself. Will it be a United Party Government which will have to implement the various recommendations of the Erika Theron Commission so as to lead the Coloureds to greater heights in the socioeconomic as well as the political sphere?

Do you have a stomach ulcer?

You only have to listen; if you do, you will become a little wiser. One does not want to anticipate the recommendations of the Erika Theron Commission, but I am convinced that there will be two aspects on which special emphasis will be laid. The first is education and, in particular, technical training for the Coloureds. The second is the combating of the abuse of liquor.

From the Economic Development Programme for the period 1972-’77 it is clear that the envisaged growth rate could be speeded up from 5,5% to 5,75% per annum, because we are now able to supplement the shortage of White skilled manpower from the ranks of the non-Whites. We already find that it was stressed in the Budget speech that pre-1973-05-30 and in-service industrial training for the Bantu in the White areas would be allowed and encouraged by the Government. It was also announced that facilities for this propose would be made available. We cannot allow the training of Coloureds up to the skilled level to lag behind. In South Africa we have an acute shortage of mechanics and trained artisans in the building industry and in industry in general, but—and this is the rub —some of our White workers’ unions are still not prepared to train Coloureds as apprentices. This attitude of unwillingness on the part of the workers’ unions does of course stem directly from the Nationalist Party Government’s policy of racial discrimination in the field of labour as is apparent from legislation aimed at job reservation and the Physical Planning Act.

The hon. the Minister of Transport, however, has achieved great success in his negotiations with these workers’ unions, and today the Railways Administration employs more than 10 000 non-Whites, who, as skilled artisans, are doing jobs previously done by Whites. I know that the hon. the Minister of Coloured Relations will tell me that these matters which I am raising now are not within his province but within that of the hon. the Minister of Labour. However, the hon. the Minister must use his influence with the hon. the Minister of Labour in order to prevail on him to negotiate with these workers’ unions. He must prevail on them to extend a helping hand and undertake the training of these Coloureds.

There is an extensive shortage of trained manpower, and the greater the number of trained, skilled artisans active in the economy of South Africa, the faster our economy will be able to grow. When South Africa flourishes, the Whites flourish and so do all the non-White groups. When this happens, peace and calm can prevail in South Africa.

The Nationalist Party slogan of “apartheid” has caused us to be described as the “skunk of the world”. If the Nationalist Party’s economic slogan of “poor but White” is applied, we can write “Ichabod” across the White civilization of this country. When will the average Nat begin to realize that only when we have progress in South Africa in the industrial sphere will South Africa be able to occupy a strong position, not only in its relations in regard to its fellow-countrymen in South Africa, but also in relation to countries abroad. Only then shall we be able to uplift all peoples in South Africa. Economic growth is directly proportionate to the artisans, the trained manpower, available in South Africa. Because there has been a shortage of manpower, the growth rate aimed at in South Africa was, until recently, only 5,5 % per annum.

†In 1972 the hon. member for Walmer asked the hon. the Minister of Coloured Affairs, this hon. Minister’s predecessor, whether training facilities were available in South Africa for the Coloureds to be trained as welders, electricians, carpenters, motor mechanics and blasters. The reply was that there were facilities and that at that stage 33 Coloureds were being trained as welders, 105 as electricians, 1 023 as carpenters and 104 as motor mechanics. Perhaps the Coloured Development Corporation could give more attention to the establishment of Coloured businesses such as garages, electric appliance repair shops and other light industries for the extensive training of these people. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, when one listens to the speech by the hon. member for Port Elizabeth Central, it becomes very clear that the United Party takes no interest in Coloured affairs or in the Coloureds in South Africa. However, I want to leave the matter at that.

Yesterday afternoon a speech was made in this House which we may not allow to pass without any further comment. The hon. member for Newton Park rose here yesterday, and he was the United Party’s spokesman on Coloured Affairs. The hon. members for Bezuidenhout and Wynberg, who usually speak on this Vote, were absent yesterday. Then the hon. member for Newton Park made a speech here which amounted to a completely new policy on the part of the United Party. He came along here and said that the United Party’s policy was that there should be two Coloured Persons Representative Councils, one for the Western Cape and the Boland and another for the North.

What do you have against that?

The hon. member wants to know What I have to do with that.

No, I want to know what you have against it.

The hon. member wants to know what I have against it. I should be very pleased if the hon. member would just give me a chance. The hon. member for Newton Park pleaded for two Coloured Persons Representative Councils …

You could also call them legislative assemblies.

Call them by any name, but it was councils of this kind which only last year were still described by the hon. members on the other side of the House as rubber stamps. Only last year the hon. member for Wynberg stood up in this House and said that the Coloured Persons Representative Council was nothing but a rubber stamp.

Tell us about your policy.

Now hon. members on the other side of the House want to come here and establish two of these councils which are supposedly rubber stamps. The hon. member went even further than that. He was prepared to establish a Coloured Council for the South and a Coloured Council for the North. Let them tell us now whether they also intend to establish a Coloured Council for Natal. Do they intend to establish a Coloured Council for South-West Africa? We want to build up a Coloured identity here in South Africa. We want to place the Coloureds on the road to developing into a fully-fledged nation, but here the United Party now wants two different councils …

We say a people, you say a nation.

I am not arguing about a people or a nation now. Is it not the intention of the United Party to sow dissension between the Coloureds of the North and the Coloureds of the South in this way? How are those two Coloured Councils going to operate? There must be continuous consultation with this White Parliament. Are these two Councils now to liaise with this Parliament? This is something which is ill-considered in every respect. I find it very strange, however, that last year the Coloured Persons Representative Council was a rubber stamp according to the United Party. At the beginning of this session, in the course of the no-confidence debate, the United Party had the opportunity to announce this new policy, but they did not say a word about it. Now, however, at the end of this session, the United Party comes along with its new policy. This new policy of theirs is nothing but a means by which they want to deceive the Coloureds. It is all a bluff.

I find it interesting that under these circumstances, in the late hours of this debate, the United Party has come to the fore with this new policy of theirs. I should like to know since when it has been the task of the hon. member for Newton Park to announce the new policy of the United Party. Where is the hon. the Leader of the Opposition? Is it not his task to announce the new policy of the United Party? Where is the hon. member for Bezuidenhout, who was the main speaker for the United Party on this Vote last year. Does the hon. member for Bezuidenhout agree with this new policy of the United Party? Does the hon. member for Wynberg agree with this new policy of the United Party? Is this a resolution passed by the caucus of the United Party? Is this new policy of the United Party a unanimous resolution passed by their caucus? But now they are going further and want these two councils, the one for the South and the other for the North. In the same vein, however, they want six representatives in this Parliament as well. They want those two councils plus representatives for the Coloureds in this House as well.

They say that was their old policy.

Yes, it is still their old policy.

You are not abreast of things.

To keep abreast of the United Party policy is very difficult.

Now I come to another point. Yesterday the hon. member for Simonstown said here by way of interjection that when they should come into power the Group Areas Act would not be repealed, but amended. I should like to know from hon. members opposite in what respect the Group Areas Act will be changed. I shall tell them why I ask this. It is the Group Areas Act which actually forms the basis of the future development of the Coloureds here in South Africa. If it were not for the Group Areas Act there would never have been this development in the socio-economic sphere, in the sphere of education or in any of the other spheres for which pleas have been made here and on the other side.

The hon. member for Turffontein said we were saying that there were only two courses which South Africa could follow …

You say so.

The hon. member for Turffontein said that we were saying so. He said that we were saying that there were only two courses which could be followed, namely the course of integration and the course of segregation. Do the hon. members opposite agree with that?

That is what you say.

Yes, this is what we say. Does the hon. member agree that this is what we say? Now I should like to know from the hon. member what the other course is which could be followed.

The federal course.

What is the other course which could be followed? Let me hear what the other course is which could be followed. The hon. member said that he rejected integration and he rejected segregation. After all, then there must be another course, a middle course—“The middle of the road”—because, after all, this is always the “middle of the road”, not so?

That is what you are seeking.

What are you seeking? We should like to know, because you reject segregation and you reject integration. What, then, is the other policy which you advocate? [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member who has just sat down, talks of policies. I want to talk of facts because the Coloured people are a little tired of hearing of policies and politics from members on the other side. I believe the time has come that unless we deal with some of the facts, as I have said before, none of the policies that we offer will be accepted anyway.

I am pleased to have this second opportunity to take part in this debate because I saw a glimmer of sympathy in the hon. the Minister’s speech yesterday with regard to the difficulties experienced by the Coloured people. On this occasion I would like to confine myself to the plight of the Coloured people in the Wentworth area of Durban because what happens in the Wentworth area is merely an echo of what is happening in most of the Coloured townships all over South Africa. Today there was a report in a Durban newspaper on the Wentworth area, but the hon. the Minister obviously has not had time to see it yet. Let me say to him that this report substantiates everything I have said in this House over the last two or three years in connection with this particular area. The report talks of gang warfare that has erupted in the ghetto of Wentworth in Durante Road, which I have mentioned in this House in the past. It talks too of the terror of the people in Wentworth and of the lack of facilities there. All I can say is that the things that are stated in this report are things which I have seen myself on more than one occasion. Despite the fact that a commission has been appointed, I would like to invite the hon. the Minister in his capacity as Minister, to come with me to Wentworth and the surrounding areas at the first opportunity. I want to say that this report deals with the suicides which I have mentioned to the helpless and frustrated people; it deals with the hatred, particularly among the young people, in this Coloured community and, what is probably very alarming, it makes it quite clear that the young people in the Coloured community have lost all patience with White people of all political persuasions. They no longer believe anything they are told. No doubt the hon. the Minister has looked at this area—I believe he has visited it in the past—but I want to assure him that it has not improved one iota since he was there. I would like to plead with him to come with me to Wentworth once again. Let me just give an example of the sort of thing that happens. During the recess I was instrumental in helping to form a Coloured Self-Help Community Society, because I felt, as they themselves felt, that they could not lay all the blame for their problems on other people, but that they must help themselves. One of the first tasks that was to be tackled, was the construction of swings in the parks for children to play on. We had all possible assistance from the department, and I certainly do not blame the department and the officials of the department in Durban for anything in this respect. The Coloureds themselves made the swings. We intended to have 12 of these swings erected by Christmas for the children. But, Mr. Chairman, you would have been surprised at the difficulties we experienced in trying to have these swings put up in the Coloured area of Wentworth. People said that the parks did not belong to the Coloureds and that we therefore had to have special permission. Only after tremendous difficulties did we manage to put up a few swings in an area in which, quite frankly, I would be a little nervous to have my children play, because of the topography. This is an example of what happens when the Coloureds try to help themselves. I know of another instance, about which I believe the Minister should know, of a Coloured man who cleared some bush in a Coloured area so that he could coach children at soccer. He was seen clearing this bush, and he was approached by an official of the Durban Corporation, who threatened to prosecute him for damaging bush on Corporation land. Now, how in heaven’s name we are going to obtain the goodwill of the Coloured community I mentioned yesterday if we behave in this manner, I do not know.

I would also draw to the hon. the Minister’s attention another matter. I know this is a difficulty he has, but all I can ask him, as I asked him yesterday, is to please use his own good offices to see that something is done about the question of shopping centres at Wentworth. They still exist in old garages which were built during the war. They leak, and since the Coloureds moved into this area no shops, community centre, churches or playing-fields of any worth have been built. I know that the CDC itself was anxious to start a project in this area, but every time private Coloured people wanted to start something in this area, they were blocked by the Department of Community Development. The Department of Community Development has said that plans have been drawn up to build a shopping centre. It said it was going to do this, that and the other, but the years go by and nothing is done at all. So those people who are trying to see to the upliftment of the Coloured people are frustrated. Not only are the Coloureds themselves frustrated and becoming bitter, but White people and White organizations, for example the hon. the Minister’s department itself, have become frustrated at having to try to get past the door of the Department of Community Development. Sir, while I do not blame the hon. the Minister for these things, I should like to see him insist, for instance, that the local authority does not move Coloureds out of houses for the sake of building freeways, and what have you, and then put them into temporary transit camps, telling them that they will be there for a few months until alternative accommodation is found. They find that they have to stay in these transit camps for years. I would like to add to what the hon. the Minister said yesterday, namely that development of this sort must not take place at the expense of a person who lives in a home, no matter how humble it is. The housing position is critical enough. I would like to ask the hon. the Minister to emphasize again that no reads and no fancy projects by city engineers with grandoise schemes would be allowed to proceed at the expense of anybody’s home, even if it is a tin shack. Finally, I repeat that I hope that the hon. the Minister will be able to pay a visit with me to the Wentworth area during the recess, and the sooner, the better.

Mr. Chairman, I believe that the hon. the Minister will reply in his capable manner to the problems concerning Natal as raised by the hon. member for Port Natal. I shall therefore leave him at that.

In my speech last night I quoted from a speech which was made last year by the hon. member for Maitland in the course of the discussion of this Vote. I should very much like to quote another passage from what he said on 30th May last year—

Now, Mr. Chairman, I am not sure who stole from whom, nor am I quite sure what the policy of the United Party is, but I should not think that we are very keen to move in there. The Scriptures say: “How pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity.” Unfortunately, Sir, they now have in their ranks a sister, the sister from Wynberg, and it seems to me as if these things are not working out so well for them.

In the Greater Western Cape the Coloureds have through the years made a very important contribution in the agricultural industry. I want to make the statement that the Coloureds are indissolubly bound up with the agricultural industry in the Greater Western Cape. I believe, too, that some of our finest relationships between White and Brown may be found on our farms. It is with gratitude that one is able to mention the mutual interest prevailing betwees Whites and non-Whites on our farms, and that one is able to mention what is being done for our Coloureds on our farms.

Now, it is true, Sir, that as far back as 1964 the demand for Coloured labour far exceeded the supply. Since then the position has deteriorated even further. One of the most important reasons for this is the tremendous industrial development which has speeded up the rate of urbanization. We all know that this is a world-wide phenomenon. A very heavy responsibility therefore rests on the farmers to accept this challenge to keep their Coloured labour on their farms. Now we can say this afternoon that they have already initiated very extensive efforts in this regard. If we consider remuneration, for example, we can say that the farmers have already made numerous attempts in this regard to pay our Coloured labourers a living wage. It is a pity that articles appear in our newspapers from time to time which wrest these matters from their context and only emphasize the aspect of hard cash, without taking note of the other benefits enjoyed by the Coloureds on the farms. Sir, special attention will also have to be given to housing on our farms. We were grateful to learn from the Minister of Agriculture that a committee had been appointed and was already attending to this matter.

There is another matter which I should like to emphasize this afternoon, and this is in connection with education facilities for the child of the Coloured farm labourer. It is accepted everywhere that scholastic training is the basic right of every child. Now, we realize that the administration has to contend with financial problems and that the necessary funds for meeting all the needs are not always available. I want to express my thanks this afternoon for what has already been done in the sphere of education. This has led to schools being virtually within the reach of every child, but I do want to put a question to the hon. the Minister in this regard. Would it not be possible for a more attractive scheme to be introduced, a scheme which would make it a more attractive proposition for farmers to build schools on their farms out of their own funds? For example, here I have in mind that the rent allowances paid could be substantially increased. I am aware of the fact that there are many farmers here in the Western Cape who would build those schools. I believe that we should make it a paying proposition for them. The funds which they invest in these schools, must provide them with such dividends or interest as they could also earn by investing that money in other spheres.

I believe that there is another important factor which should be taken into account in our attempt to keep the Coloureds on our farms. This is that agricultural training could also be provided for the Coloured worker. Here one should mention the great work done at the Kromme Rhee Training Centre, of which mention is made in the annual report of the department. We note that in 1966 there were 146 enrolments. By 1971 this number had risen to 337. I believe that we could turn our Coloured labourer on the farm into a much more productive worker if we were to provide him with this agricultural training. It would mean that the farmer would need fewer people on his farm, because the workers in his service would then be more productive. We are grateful to hear that there is a possibility that the Kromme Rhee Training Centre will be developed into an agricultural training institution. However, I should like to know from the hon. the Minister whether there is any possibility of more training centres being established here in the Greater Western Cape. If there is such a possibility, I should like to ask specifically for such a training centre for the Southern Cape, and it will probably not be taken amiss of me if I ask this specifically for Oudtshoorn and its surrounding areas. I believe that on our farms today we have many farmers, people with degrees in agriculture, who would be willing to serve as part-time lecturers in such training centres. I really believe that our Coloured workers would attend these training centres, that our farmers would support them, and that is this way we would be able to present a new image, a better image, in regard to the Coloured worker on our farms. If we were to give attention to this matter, and if my request could be implemented in practice. I foresee that we shall be able to meet the existing shortages within a short time. From the report of the Boland Agricultural Union dated 2nd March, 1972, we note that in 1969 a total of more than 28 000 additional regular male Coloured workers were required. According to a survey by the University of Stellenbosch this position will deteriorate further when provision is made in towns and cities for larger housing schemes for our Coloureds. I feel that here we are faced with a challenge, a challenge which we can accept, and I believe that we all agree in this regard. If we can make the necessary provision as far as these matters are concerned, we shall be able to keep the Coloured workers on our farms.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Oudtshoom lodged a plea to the effect that more assistance should be given by the department, in the first place, for the establishment of farm schools. I think that question of farm schools is dear to the hearts of most of us, but I want to point out to the hon. member that in modem times this is no longer a duty that we can simply saddle the farmers with. Such a farm school makes provision for between 30 and 50 Coloured children, and the farmer is responsible for a large portion of them, even though he can, in fact, obtain assistance from the State, but the majority of those children eventually enter the service of other industries. They become professional people and frequently they never return to the farm again.

You consequently do not support this proposal?

No, I want to help the hon. member, but I want to go a step further. I want to say that this responsibility should not, firstly, be placed solely on the shoulders of the farmer; it must also be placed on the shoulders of the community, of the State, so that they can help in this respect. There I consequently disagree with the hon. member. I cannot see how we can expect the farmers to establish farm schools and provide the necessary facilities, even though they receive a subsidy from the State for that purpose. I believe that under modern circumstances the establishment of these schools ought to be the responsibility of the department itself. As long as the farmer is prepared to make the necessary land available, I think he is doing enough. Sir, where schools are established elsewhere today, they are the responsibility of the State, the responsibility of the community. Why, in this case, do we want to place the responsibility on the shoulders of the South African farmers? If we place this responsibility on their shoulders, we shall not succeed in making more education available to the Coloured children. Therefore I would rather see bigger and quicker steps being taken by the State itself in that connection.

Sir, I now come to the hon. member for Krugersdorp. I am glad to see that he is in the Council Chamber again. For a number of years that hon. member has not been in the House of Assembly. He was not here from 1966 to 1970, and it seems to me as if, during that period, the hon. member has got slightly out of touch with politics. Previously that hon. member was very well acquainted with the policies of the political parties, and now he comes along here and asks whether it is the policy of the United Party to repeal the Group Areas Act when it comes into power. As far back as 1963 the United Party stated very clearly that there is certain legislation which it would examine, when it came to power, with a view to amendments and with a view to repeal. I want to quote to the hon. member what our policy is, as laid down as far back as 1963—

In that connection certain Acts were mentioned by name, Acts like—

There it is stated clearly, but the hon. member now comes along and asks us whether we are going to repeal that Act. The hon. member will recall what the attitude of this side of the House was in 1949 when the Group Areas Act was discussed here in the House of Assembly. We had no objection to the idea of separate residential areas being set aside for the various race groups in South Africa. The United Party’s objection—and today it is still a fundamental objection—was that areas are set aside and that race groups are asked to move to those areas before decent alternative housing is established for them in those areas. Our second objection—and this applies to the Coloureds, in particular—was to the shifting of people from areas where they had been making a living as businessmen or entrepreneurs, or whatever the case may be. Those were our two biggest objections. If the hon. member thinks that this is not a source of irritation, I want to remind him what happened, under this Government, in Kloof Street, where there is today still a Coloured shoemaker in a White residential area. Even this Government had to let these people remain there because they have built up goodwill and are furnishing a service there. If a person resides in an area where he is making his living and where he is furnishing a service to the community, why must one deprive him of that opportunity? That is the type of thing which the United Party objected to at the time in connection with the Group Areas Act. The hon. member asks me whether the creation of two Coloured Persons Representative Councils is now the new United Party policy. Sir, I do not know why the hon. member so vehemently objects to that, because his party wants to create 22 separate legislative assemblies for the non-Whites in South Africa. Now we are proposing that in the greater Boland and Western Cape metropolitan area such a Legislative Assembly be created for the Coloureds. We must not forget that there are more than 2 million of them and that a large portion of these Coloureds live on the other side of the Eiselen Line. There are already 100 000 or more of them in the Transvaal and a large portion in the Free State and also in Natal. Therefore, it is surely not so far-fetched to create a second Legislative Assembly for these people. On the contrary, this is to give them a greater opportunity to administer themselves and to create proper forms of self-government for them. Now the hon. member says that the United Party has always regarded this Legislative Assembly as a rubber stamp, and he asks why there is now this change of heart. But surely the hon. member is not correct. If this Government had been prepared, from the very start, to make this a properly elected body with proper powers, and had not nominated or appointed a large portion of the members, do you think there would have been any objections from the United Party? In 1967, if my memory is not playing me false, we made certain changes here to the Coloured Persons Representative Council and we said nothing against that. On the contrary, we agreed with that because for the first time the Government was at least decreasing the number of appointed members of that council and increasing the number of elected members. The hon. member must consequently understand that we call it a rubber stamp because the majority of a considerable portion of these members were appointed. But if they had been elected members, there would have been very little objection by this party to the principle involved. The hon. member now asks whose decision this new policy is? Is the hon. member then not acquainted with what happened, and does he not know that this was approved last year after the Leader of the Opposition appointed a constitutional committee. These principles were approved by the central executive of the party in a joint sitting with its caucus. That was the decision. [Time expired.]

Today I shall concentrate solely on the more important matters which were raised. If there are any particulars in regard to which I did not furnish hon. members with replies, they must not take this amiss of me. We shall try to introduce a system this year by means of which we shall furnish them with replies to those matters which they raised here and to which they should like to have replies; we shall do this by means of the department which will consult with me in advance. Towards the end of the debate yesterday I said that I should like to reply to the hon. member for Boksburg. However, the hon. member is not here today and for the purpose of the record I should now like to give my reply. He discussed dwelling units for the Coloureds in Boksburg, and he discussed the Indian traders who are still in Boksburg and who are creating problems there. I shall in due course ensure that the hon. member receives the replies to these questions, replies which at this stage are not of interest to this House.

The hon. member for Worcester, who was the first to speak, asked for assistance on my part to promote decentralization in Worcester by means of the encouraging task which the Department of Coloured Relations has in respect of the Coloureds, and its interceding task which it can perform in respect of other departments. We are merely the intercessors, and plead on behalf of the Coloureds in such cases as these. As the hon. member knows, this is a matter which falls under the hon. the Minister of Economic Affairs. The hon. member also knows that the Cabinet feels that industrialists in our Boland towns and further into the Western Cape should be accommodated. Then, too, there are already certain towns which have been singled out so that we can help industrialists to proceed with the establishment of industries there if they intend making exclusive use of Coloured labour.

†The hon. member for Zululand was concerned about the problem of the Dunn people in Natal. I know that he did mention this on a previous occasion as well. However, on that occasion I did not handle the matter and I only became acquainted with the problem in the course of this year. The actual stumbling block in their way to get title deeds to the land, is that the land forms part of the land of the Bantu Trust. I suppose the hon. member is aware of this fact. We cannot give title deeds to the Dunn people until such time as we have land available to compensate the people who are living there at this moment. It is the task of the Department of Bantu Administration and Development to acquire such land, as the hon. member will realize. I said yesterday that I do not like to pass the buck, but this is really a problem which I cannot solve by myself. This matter has been discussed at great length in the Coloured Representative Council. Last year Mr. Dunn came to see the then Minister of Coloured Relations and I was present when he put his case. We tried our best. At the beginning of this year I saw the hon. the Deputy Minister of Bantu Administration and Education and I was then told that they were experiencing a lot of difficulty in settling these squatters. The Department of Bantu Administration and Development is also doing its utmost to get the consolidation of the Bantu homeland KwaZulu finalized. The granting of title deeds to the Dunn people is dependent upon the finalization of this consolidation.

I am just as concerned as the hon. member. The Dunn people were promised this land, as the hon. member has pointed out, in terms of an Act of Parliament of 1935. More than 35 years have elapsed in the meantime and these people have all along been trying to get title deeds to this land but as yet they have not succeeded. I am well aware of the problems with which they are confronted. I am glad to hear that the hon. member has information that the Department of Transport is considering a compensation payment to these people as though they were the holders of the title deeds to this land across which a big national highway is to be constructed. I suppose that I could also assist in this regard by making an anneal to that department to establish whether they can contribute in some way in order to let these people feel a bit more secure.

The hon. member also pointed out that one of their problems is that the Coloureds must have permits in order to develop their allocated area in Richard’s Bay. The hon. member will realize that here again it is a question for the Department of Community Development and the group areas. Did I understand that the hon. member would like to have a group area proclaimed in Richard’s Bay?

Yes.

I can only promise that I shall try to alleviate the position of those people. I fully realize, as he does, that those people being there and being required for the tasks which await them there, will have to stay there for a very long time if not permanently. Something of a more permanent nature will have to be devised in order to let these people feel more secure. It is also necessary that their employers should feel secure. I feel that we should not leave the matter at that and I am prepared to start correspondence in this regard.

*The hon. member for Mariental spoke as befits a South-West African. He referred to Namaland and Rehoboth and made certain requests in that connection. I concede that the development of Namaland could take place more rapidly. We placed 2 163 000 hectares at the disposal of those people. Of course one must also give thought to the upliftment of those people who still in reality have a long road of development ahead of them. The land was in a bad state of erosion, but fortunately great things have already been accomplished with the aid of agricultural officers, and recently, too, as a result of the organization of the four areas. Soromas. Tses, Gibeon and Berseba, which were the old reserves. As a result of this organization, and with the aid of the existing advisory councils, we are gradually making progress there. In Rehoboth there is still opposition on the part of the Basters, and I just want to mention that we are proceeding with this planning despite the opposition. We have already consented to the money which remained in the development fund which was borrowed at the time from the South-West African Administration, an amount of R141 000, being used for the development of the town of Rehoboth. As the hon. member will know, we are planning a water reticulation system at Rehoboth. We are also thinking of an electricity supply, but the problem is to obtain servitudes across land belonging to Basters. These people are very difficult to negotiate with, and they are very suspicious in this sense that they do not readily grant servitudes. The idea is that they should link up with SWAESC, the South-West African Electricity Supply Commission, and that they, too, will then eventually be able to move into the modern age. I want to say here that Rehoboth has lagged very far behind. We are concerned about this, and we will in the end simply have to use the authority of the State, in terms of the 1924 proclamation by Gen. Hertzog, to do what is essential for these people, who are being kept where they are at present by an advisory council which is obstinate. If matters continue in this way, it will eventually lead to Rehoboth becoming completely stagnant.

†The hon. member for Transkei mentioned the question of the Coloureds in the Transkei. He expressed concern about them and I myself do not feel too easy about the Coloureds in the Transkei. There are more than 10 000 of them or perhaps there are less; I do not know. The position of the Coloured people there is handled by an interdepartmental committee and they try to persuade them to go somewhere else. However, this is a voluntary matter at the moment; these people are not forced to go. This interdepartmental committee has lately decided to appoint a liaison officer who is stationed at Umtata. This man must see to it that these people are helped in finding the right type of work. They must be assisted in choosing or deciding where they want to go. We are embarking upon a system where these people will go voluntarily. The problem of housing for these people has been solved. Last year we received R350 000 from the Cabinet with which houses are to be erected for these people. However, at the moment we consider the possibility of providing only temporary housing. This might prove to be permanently temporary—I do not know at this stage. In any case, eventually these houses are supposed to be at the disposal of the Bantu people. These houses are in the process of being erected at the moment. As far as education is concerned. we do not have any Coloured schools in Umtata in the Transkei. There is a school at Kokstad where there were 11 matriculants in 1972. Education is provided from Std. 6 level up to matriculation level. I cannot say anything more than that because I do not know anything else about this school. If the hon. member wants to know more about it, I will let him know.

As far as technical education is concerned, there are amenities for them at Queenstown and at Grahamstown. There are also some supplementary classes at other places. These amenities are not in the Transkei itself but outside the Transkei. I have been informed by the department that boarding grants are available at Queenstown and at Grahamstown. A technical college exists at Durban and Port Elizabeth; so, as far as that matter is concerned, I am afraid that we cannot provide for them in the Transkei. They can at least go to these places which are able to supply them with the necessary amenities for training.

*The hon. member for Prieska, inter alia, discussed political aspects which I do not want to go into at this stage. He pointed out the evils which existed in the past in regard to the Coloured vote, a fact which everyone acquainted with the history of this matter will confirm. It began as long ago as 1850 and persisted for more than a hundred years, until 1956. The hon. member also discussed training for Coloureds, particularly in a vocational direction because the Coloureds are that way inclined, in the area in which he lives as well. There are a total of 152 000 Coloureds living in the area which the hon. member represents, in the area of my constituency, in Namaqualand and also in the Kuruman and Vryburg areas. These people definitely have a claim to some or other form of vocational education. At this stage I can only say that the number who are coming forward is not yet sufficient to justify a college. However, there is sufficient need to enable us to establish a youth camp in Gordonia where young Coloureds may also be taught to adapt more successfully in the field of labour, and may even be taught certain skills. When we undertake planning in this direction again, that area will in fact be taken into careful consideration for this purpose.

†The hon. member for Jeppes spoke about something which is not really the concern of my department, namely the provision of housing and other amenities in the Johannesburg area. Some two or more years ago I visited this area as a Deputy Minister and I saw what was going on here. I share the hon. member’s concern. I can only say that now that the Coloured people encounter every day. This set-up needs and problems are being discussed in the Coloured Representative Council as well as here in this House. We must therefore have an ear for the troubles and trials these people encounter every day. This set-up makes for a doubly effective democratic process. I know what is going on there and I have made some representations, but so far I have not been too successful. In view of the fact that I have had many representations since then from the Coloured Representative Council, I have decided that I will visit those parts in August with the Minister of Community Development to see what can be done in a comprehensive way to improve conditions in Johannesburg and on the East Rand. In this respect I am the beggar and the borrower, but at least I do not answer these people coming to me for help that I do not have the legal right to act. The Department of Community Development is also concerned about the conditions in this area and that is why we decided to work in conjunction. The hon. member also spoke about sports facilities, and so on, but I think all these considerations are included in what I have just told the hon. member, namely that we plan to visit these parts to try to do something about it.

May I ask the hon. the Minister a question? Will he give some consideration to inviting interested members of Parliament to visit these areas?

I am very glad that the hon. member asked that question because I think we are all concerned with liaison and dialogue. It is also appropriate that we should consult with the members of the Coloured Representative Council who represent that area. They talk to their people, live with them and experience with them even the squalor and dirt sometimes. We can then all come together to see what can be done. This is a department where we want something done; it is not a department where we can afford to squabble all day about what happened 20 or 25 years ago.

*The hon. member for Bellville discussed the economically active Coloureds of our country. I see the hon. member is not present at the moment. Actually he discussed the economically active Coloureds of the Western Cape. He juggled a little with figures here, and drew conclusions, etc. I do not want to dispute them, but I just want to inform him that as pessimistic as his feelings are in regard to the tremendous increase in Coloured labour and since there is now, in a period of inflation, no Coloured unemployment, I am as optimistic that we will have enough Coloured labour and enough work for the Coloureds who will be available in the Western Cape in 15 or 20 years’ time. Recently we have been making use of Bantu migrant labourers, people who do not live here permanently, but travel back and forth. The Bantu living here permanently are diminishing in numbers. In particular the number of Bantu employed by local authorities have diminished by 1 304 within a question of a few years, while the number of Coloureds increased by 15 000. As far as migrant labourers are concerned, the number of Bantu increased by 46 000 within a question of four years. When we become pessimistic about the Coloureds and their ability, and about the labour waiting for them in the Western Cape with the kind of development which is taking place here, I cannot entirely share that pessimism. When we use this pessimism and the relevant figures for the development of the economy of the Western Cape and the growth points there, I am agreed on that score. That is in order. We must create work opportunities for our people, but when we want to use Coloured labour as the only pillar in the establishment of a fourth Iscor at Saldanha, we are constructing a pillar which will crumble away completely beneath us. We cannot be certain that Coloured labour will initially be the labour which we will be able to rely on exclusively in that sphere. We will require Bantu labour for the heavy industries. This does not mean that I do not regard this very sympathetically, because I do in fact regard it sympathetically. I should like us to create expansion possibilities for these people in the Cape Flats, at Mamre and at Saldanha where, as I understand, a shipyard costing approximately R35 million is to be constructed. We are therefore expecting great developments in future. However, we have other problems, and the Cabinet will eventually decide where this so-called fourth Iscor will be established, and where the manufacture of steel will be undertaken. I do not in any way want to speculate further about this now. It is a decision for the Cabinet and I think that a little less speculation, both outside as well as inside this House and in the newspapers, would be welcome at this stage.

The hon. member for Port Elizabeth Central raised a very interesting matter here. Inter alia, he discussed the Commission of Inquiry into Coloured Affairs. I do not know whether he wanted to anticipate the commission, but I just want to inform him that the commission has very clear terms of reference. These are in fact to investigate the socio-economic and educational problems and development of the Coloureds over the period of 12 years from the time when Dr. Verwoerd supposedly made certain promises; to determine the present position, to examine the bottlenecks, and then to come forward with advice. This does not only cover political policy, but we are also thinking in terms of political factors; and why not? Politically we have moved away from the old Coloured Persons Advisory Council which the United Party Government of the time appointed on 1st January, 1944. Please note: They appointed it; they did not allow it to be elected. This is what happens in regard to all developing bodies: They are first appointed, subsequently a minority is elected, after which a majority and finally all of them are elected. That is what we are engaged in at present. This is the way the development took place. It would therefore be wrong to omit the term “political”. I am not anticipating the report of the commission. I have every confidence in these people, and I think they will do a thorough job of work.

But the hon. member raised another point. He spoke of employment opportunities, and referred specifically to the training of our Coloureds as artisans, etc. Now, I just want to issue a statement arising out of a resolution recently adopted by the Cabinet after we had discussed the problem to which the hon. member referred, viz. that there are White trade unions that want to keep the Coloureds out of certain industries, for example the motor industry. This is a problem to us. We must have the courage of our convictions. These people are driving around in thousands of cars, and who must repair those cars? The Government then adopted the following resolution:

1. 1. To afford Coloureds under 31 years of age, for whom it is for some reason or other not possible to register as apprentices, the opportunity to qualify as artisans, the Government has consented to placing at the disposal of the Executive of the Coloured Persons Representative Council the means to establish a centre where such persons may be trained as artisans.
2. 2. The establishment, administration and control of the centre will be entrusted to the Administration of Coloured Affairs. The centre shall therefore be under the administration of their own people. I could just mention in passing that it will cost a few hundred thousand rand.
3. 3. It is being envisaged to construct this training centre in the Cape Peninsula, and steps are being taken to establish the necessary facilities so that training may commence in January, 1974, or as soon as possible after that date.
4. 4. Initially only a course in motor mechanics will be offered, but if it should appear to be necessary, the facilities will be expanded to make provision for the training of artisans in other technical fields.
5. 5. To ensure that the standard of training at the centre compares with that of other training systems the requirements set for apprentices in regard to theoretical and practical training will be strictly adhered to. The duration of the course, both practical as well as theoretical, will be three years and will lead to the acquisition of a National Technical Certificate II and/or III. Upon completion of the course the trainees will undergo a trade test, as applicable to apprentices in the motor industry, after which the Department of Labour will assist in placing successful trainees in suitable positions.
6. 6. Provision will initially be made at the training centre for the admission and training of 40 selected trainees per annum. The admission requirements will be a Std. 8 certificate, as prescribed for apprentices in the motor industry, and the trainees will have to be between 17 and 21 years of age. Trainees will also be expected to furnish a written undertaking that they will, for a period of at least two years from the date of completion of their training, work in the Republic at the trade for which they have been trained. If they should, for unacceptable reasons, fail to comply with this undertaking, the costs of training will be recovered.
7. 7. Board and lodging amenities for the trainees are not being envisaged at this stage. Selected candidates will consequently have to make their own arrangements for board and lodging.
8. 8. It is being envisaged to pay trainees an allowance of R16 per week for the duration of their training. In addition to this trainees will be issued with two overalls free of charge for every year of their training, and after the successful completion of the course, the trainees will be provided with a set of tools.
9. 9. This training scheme does not replace the present apprenticeship system of training, but is additional thereto.
10. 10. The introduction of this training scheme is a contribution on the part of the authorities to cope with the present critical shortage of trained artisans in the motor industry, as well as similar shortages which may occur in other industries. The wholehearted co-operation of those concerned in this matter, and more specifically the industry itself—and I may as well include the Opposition here as well—is being relied on to make a success of this scheme. Consequently an appeal is being made to all interested persons and bodies to lend their support.
11. 11. In this connection the employers’ organizations and trade unions concerned, as well as the National Apprenticeship Board, will be consulted.

It is no more than right that one should do this. Hon. members should regard this statement in its correct perspective.

May I put a question to the hon. the Minister? Will White as well as non-White employers be able to employ the trainees who are being trained as motor mechanics at the centre?

The hon. member wants a straight reply to that. At this stage it is the policy of the State that they may be employed by anyone.

Mr. Chairman, may I ask a quick question? I should like to know from the hon. the Minister whether, in the three-year period during which these artisans will be there, they will be studying full-time there, or whether they will also be working?

There was an alternative scheme of two years, followed by one year of practical training, but in these three years they will work and study. They receive all the training there which they have to receive.

Where will they work?

Facilities will be created for them so that they can work on motor vehicles. They will be able to do everything there. Our major problem was in fact to find Whites to employ these people so that they could teach them.

There will probably be no shortage of broken down motor cars!

Yes, I am certain there will be no such shortage.

Mr. Chairman, I should like to ask the hon. the Minister whether a trainee, after he has completed the three-year course at the training college to which he referred and after he has done his trade test, will qualify as a journeyman at that stage or not?

Yes, such an artisan must first do his trade test.

And once he has done it?

Yes, then he is an artisan. If he does not pass that test, he is afforded a further opportunity to do his trade test six months later. The Department of Labour is in charge of this matter; they place such a person in employment. Hon. members must not ask me any further questions about this matter now. We shall explain the rest to hon. members. I tried to be very complete.

Sir, the hon. member for Krugersdorp made a very fine contribution. He exposed the United Party as far as the deficiencies in their policy are concerned.

†The hon. member for Port Natal was worried about the poverty, the squalor and the social conditions in Wentworth, and also about the fact that gang warfare was taking place. I can tell him that I promised the C.R.C. members—those of them who did not think too highly of themselves to attend meetings of the liaison committee— that I would visit Durban in the second half of the year. I see that the hon. member is not here at the moment.

He has just been called out.

Well, will you give him the message? I can give the hon. member the same assurance that I gave the hon. member for Jeppes. I want to say that the hon. member must not forget about the C.R.C. members who represent those parts. They must be in on it. I may consider inviting all of them, when I visit those parts, to see what is going on there. As I have said, I intend visiting Durban during the second half of the year.

Sir, although I quite often disagree with the hon. member, especially as far as bilingualism is concerned, I am very glad that he is so concerned about this polarization between White and Black and White and Coloured and so on, but I think there is something else he must realize. There is also a polarization, in the case of some people, against law and order, and we must be sure that we are on the side of law and order. That is very important. The other matters the hon. member raised, I think we can clear up at a later stage when I visit Durban. I have not yet managed to fix a date for my visit to Durban; I do not know when I shall be able to go there, but I think it will be some time during the second half of the year. They say the weather is very good in Durban at that time.

*The hon. member for Oudtshoorn discussed Kromme Rhee. I am grateful for his fine words about that institution, where 2 128 persons are already receiving training in the short term to make better farm labourers of them. Some of them have even become more competent than the farmer himself to look after his tractors.

He presented a plea for farmers who-establish their own schools, and asked us to pay them interest. Sir, this is already being done, and there are constant negotiations to see whether that interest cannot be increased.

The hon. member for Newton Park then raised a few further arguments of a more political nature here. I think that I said what I wanted to say about the matter of the Coloureds yesterday, and I am not going to tire hon. members with that matter any further now. I do not think the hon. member’s argument was convincing enough to justify a reply to it. I just want to refer again to this matter of an elected body for people who are still developing. It is a matter which has to develop gradually. You cannot simply allow people to elect their own representatives if for example, they have a primitive election system, for then one finds the position which one has in Rehoboth today. There the advisory council, which exercises tremendous power today, is elected as follows: the voter has to enter on horse back and declare before everyone for whom he is voting. This is of course a kind of democracy as well. Another problem is that one does not always get the right people if one has only elected members. It is therefore a question of gradually moving forward. Sir, I explained to hon. members why we are following an ever-rising line of development along with these people, and that we have already reached the stage where these people hold discussions with us and where they are not merely addressed, and that is one of the reasons why the commission, to which the hon. member for Port Elizabeth Central referred, was appointed. The hon. member was not quite certain why the commission was appointed. He arrived at the conclusion that the commission had been appointed because the National Party did not have a policy. I want to inform the hon. member that during the past three to four years there has been a tremendous amount of discussion of the Coloureds by various people, but a tremendous percentage of these people who have a great deal to say about the Coloureds, do not know them at all. A tremendous percentage who have a great deal to say about the Coloureds, have not lived with them, do not know them in their heart of hearts, and do not know what they are capable of. A tremendous percentage of people who talk about the Coloureds do not know what the State is doing and what its officials are doing in their inspired approach to help the Coloureds and to really educate them to the stage where they may accept full responsibility. We felt that the time had arrived to appoint a commission, consisting of private persons, for whom everyone would have respect, to establish the facts. We are willing to submit ourselves to the factual report which that commission will eventually publish. Of course no Government can commit itself in advance to accepting the recommendations of any commission. Not even the United Party Government did so in the case of the 1937 commission. But the motive with the appointment of this commission, consisting of unprejudiced people, who are recognized by both Whites and Coloureds as being competent individuals, was to determine the actual position, and the commission may then come forward with facts for all to take cognizance of, so that it will not be said that the Government is simply making propaganda, and then we can on that basis decide whether, during these 12 years, we have been doing our duty in so far as it was within our means, or whether we were not doing our duty, and then we can discuss the matter again; and in that process we are working in the closest collaboration with the Coloureds. Sir, that is the principal idea with the commission, and the sooner hon. members on that side understand this and the fewer derogatory remarks are made about this commission here or outside, the better it will be for us, for some of these Coloured leaders, who want nothing to do with dialogue or co-operation, sometimes derive considerable courage from what opposition speakers as Whites say to Whites on this side. In this connection I want to warn hon. members, and not only hon. members in this House but anyone who makes irresponsible statements. I find that even when I sometimes say certain things in an effort to educate my own people, it is twisted against me, and then I have to explain what I meant. That just goes to show how important it is that we should act in a very responsible way when discussing these matters.

Sir, all that now remains for me to do is to thank the hon. members who participated in this debate. I think that this debate was conducted on a very good level. We undoubtedly had a few relapses here and there, but in life one expects relapses and one expects ups and downs. I want to thank all hon. members for the spirit in which this debate was conducted, and also for the contributions with which they supported me. Then, too, I want to thank the officials who were present here and who supported me at times, officials such as Mr. Bosnian, the Secretary for Coloured Relations and Rehoboth Affairs, who has already come a long way with the department and who is always there and always has been there to help us; I should also like to mention the name of Mr. Gaum of the administration of Coloured Affairs, who for the past 3½ years has been walking a difficult road with Coloured Affairs. I also thank the other hon. gentlemen who were present here. Perhaps I should mention them all by name, but I do not think that would be the correct thing to do. I want to say thank you very much to them as well. With these few words, Sir, I want to express the hope that as far as Coloured politics are concerned we, in this Parliament, will always play an augmentative and constructive role, and will never be destructive, and that we will never try to steal a political march on one another.

Votes agreed to.

Revenue Vote No. 45.—“Indian Affairs”:

Mr. Chairman, I have the pleasant duty this afternoon— the first occasion on which this Vote is discussed under the new Minister—to congratulate the hon. the Minister on assuming office as Minister of Indian Affairs. I would like to wish him every success in his administration of his portfolio in—if I may add—the short time that remains before the next election.

Sir, I think this Committee hopes to get —and indeed is entitled to expect—formation of the philosophy which motivation to an indication of the spheres with him as Minister of Indian Affairs, in addition to an indication of the spheres with which he will deal in the course of administering this portfolio. In other words, we would very much like to get an indication from him of the spirit which guides him, in addition to what one might call the nuts and bolts of the administration of his department. I feel that this is particularly important because for the last three years we have attempted to obtain from his predecessor an indication of the Government’s and the Minister’s philosophy in this regard, but I am afraid we failed completely. With a new broom I hope that we will now get a better indication in this field. In particular I would ask the hon. the Minister to deal with the manner in which the Indian people as a group fit into the Government’s philosophy of separate development, because the Government ties the various non-White groups to the philosophy of separate development by virtue of their attachment to a homeland, a geographical area; and we have had it said, certainly in respect of the Bantu—this is basic to the thinking—that the idea of accepting identifiable separate communities as part of a unitary or a federal state, not necessarily linked to geographical areas, is the basis of the United Party’s thinking, and we have also had it said over and over again, as it was said again this afternoon by the hon. member for Krugersdorp, that the United Party’s point of view is an untenable proposition; that you must have either separation or separate development or you must have integration and that there is no road in between. If the Minister should require something more authoritative than this statement by the hon. member for Krugersdorp, I would like to read to him what the hon. the Minister of Bantu Affairs said in 1970 in this regard, because it sums up the Government’s thinking, and in the light of that I would like the hon. the Minister later on to tell us how the Indian community fits into this thinking. He said (col. 3509 of Hansard)—

Here he puts it perfectly clear that the United Party in his view is a party based on “baasskap” because our policy does not create a separate homeland for the various Bantu people to which independence can be given quite separate from the White community. Now, as I understand it, Sir, there has never been any suggestion from the Government ranks that there will be a separate homeland for the Indian community, and in the absence of that homeland I should be very interested indeed to hear how this community fits into the philosophy of separate development and how it can be put on a basis of something other than domination when no provision whatever is either made or is intended at any time in the future for any representation of any kind, according to the words of the late Dr. Verwoerd, at the centre for the Indian community. The other point I should like to deal with in the few minutes left to me is the question of the Indian Council. This is another aspect in respect of which we were able to get absolutely nothing from the hon. the Minister’s predecessor. His attitude was summed up in these words, which I quote—

That was his attitude over and over again. He was not prepared to discuss the issue with this side of the house or with the Government side of the House or, indeed, with Parliament. Apparently a discussion with the Council for Indian Affairs was all that he was concerned with. Well, we are interested in Parliament and I am sure the hon. the Minister as well is interested in Parliament, and Parliament as a whole, and not only the Opposition, is entitled to the benefit of the Minister’s views in regard to the manner in which he proposes to develop the Indian Council, more particularly as, until quite recently, it was not realized, due to the Minister’s predecessor’s reticence, that the limit of five elected members—and this is borne out by the Minister’s own departmental report—applied only to the first council, as it were, the council which is about to be brought into being when once the rolls and the voting procedure is settled, and that thereafter there is no limit, as I understand it, to the number of elected members who can be put into this council. We would like to know what the Minister’s thinking in that regard is, the manner in which this will develop, the procedure which will be adopted in respect of electoral machinery, the progress which has been made in that regard and the extent and the manner in which the elected element in this council will be provided for as time unfolds. One further thing is this.

Last year I, on behalf of the United Party, gave a fairly detailed exposition of the type of powers and executive functions which we would give to an Indian Council were we in office. The hon. the Minister will find this in col. 6537 of Hansard of the 5th May, which was when this Vote took place last year. I did that in the hope of inducing the then Minister to give us the benefit of his views as to what sort of executive powers he was thinking of for the Indian Council when it should become an elected or a partly elected body. We never received any indication of what was in the hon. gentleman’s mind and I should be glad if the hon. the Minister could tell us what he sees as a likely evolution of that council, both in regard to its make-up and the powers which it will receive.

Earlier this year we passed a Bill giving the Minister a greater say in the movement of the Indian people between the provinces. The Minister is given a discretionary jurisdiction and I should be glad if he could give us some indication of the manner in which he will exercise that jurisdiction on the movement of Indians between the provinces. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Zululand put specific questions to the hon. the Minister in regard to his policy, which of course is also the policy of the Government. I believe that the hon. the Minister would like to reply to those questions himself. I could also have supplied the hon. member with replies to those questions, but since he put the questions to the hon. the Minister, I shall instead deal with other aspects in the course of my speech.

At the beginning of his speech the hon. member congratulated the hon. the Minister on his appointment as Minister of Indian Affairs. On behalf of this side of the House I should like to associate myself with that statement and wish the hon. member success in his handling of the activities of this department in future. We hope that he will be at the head of this department for many years. I also want to congratulate the hon. the Minister on his unanimous election to the post of chancellor of the University of Durban-Westville. We know that the hon. Minister has a wide background in handling tertiary education affairs and we believe that he will handle this post as well with great distinction.

The hon. the Minister was elected as chancellor in the place of Prof. A. J. H. van der Walt who held that office for only a few months. He was chancellor from May up to the time of his death in August, 1972. I should also like to pay tribute to the memory of Prof Van der Walt for the work he did. From 1961 to 1971 he was chairman of the university council and he really had the interests of that university at heart. Fitting tribute has also been paid to the memory of Prof. Van der Walt by the chairman of the Indian Council, Mr. A. M. Rajab, and to the pioneer work he did by taking the lead and helping in the founding and establishment of this particular university. Mr. Rajab paid tribute in the following appreciative words—

As a former student of Prof. Van der Walt I want to associate myself with that tribute. He did a great deal for tertiary education in general and for Indian education in particular.

Since I have now made mention of the University of Durban-Westville, I want to refer to the official inauguration of this university earlier this month. The construction of this university cost R15 million and it is one of the most modern in South Africa. The hon. the Prime Minister spoke on that occasion. I am very sorry to say that there were elements who wanted to suck poison from that inauguration ceremony. Some English-language newspapers, for example, referred to the university as “the Nat university”. The students of the University of Durban-Westville apparently tried to misuse the inauguration ceremony to boycott the Prime Minister. An English-language Sunday newspaper in Natal disclosed the intentions of the students two weeks before the time. The headline in this particular newspaper read inter alia—

The article read—

After the opening, which was an outstanding success, English-language newspapers again gave headlines to students who had not, however, succeeded in their attempts. This time the students and many others, too, were disappointed. The headlines read inter alia—

The attitude taken by the students was apparently due to influence by elements outside the student community who would have liked to get at the rector, but more particularly the Government. We know that the Indian community as a whole is very proud of this new university and that the whole community as such pays no heed to remarks of that sort.

Some time ago we heard about the fire which destroyed the Indian market in Durban. As hon. members know, that market is 100 years old and of course a great deal of damage was done, in that the livelihood of many Indians was destroyed. That Indian market was a very great tourist attraction for every visitor to Durban and Natal; they all paid a visit to the Indian market to take away some souvenir or other. The Indian market has always reminded me of the well-known Flea Market in Florence, Italy, which has acquired a great reputation. The news of the burning down of the Indian market has spread far and wide and everyone who has come to hear about it, particularly those who had paid a visit to the market on some occasion or other, felt sympathy and compassion towards the holders of the hundreds of little stalls as well as their employees who were in a flash deprived of their livelihood. The Indian community of Durban and the surrounding areas, as well as people from other communities, clubbed together after this disastrous event to offer temporary assistance to the afflicted stall holders and the dependants of the employees and also to attempt to rebuild or replace the market in one way or another. It seems that at first the Durban City Council failed shamefully in its duty and did nothing tangible. The Graphic of 13th April, 1973 referred as follows to the attitude of the Durban City Council—

That is, the Indians—

Then followed the accusation in regard to the absence of immediate assistance—

Because the Durban City Council failed, or were perhaps unwilling, to offer immediate assistance, two people, Messrs. Rajab and Redi were sent to Cape Town and had interviews with the Minister of Community Development and the Minister of Indian Affairs. These two Ministers gave immediate and sympathetic attention to the Indians’ cry of distress. The Indian community as such and the victims of this disaster in particular, tremendously appreciate the rapid action taken. Consequently these striking words of appreciation appeared in an editorial in The Graphic of 20th April—

The Minister took the initiative and established a committee under the chairmanship of the Under-Secretary for Indian Affairs, Mr. Van Eyssen, and representatives of the Department of Community Development, the City Council of Durban and the S.A. Indian Council, to provide assistance in the first place by constructing something temporary in the meantime and in the second place, to search for a long-term solution to the problem. To the question of why the Durban City Council were inactive for such a long time and were unwilling to do anything positive, the Durban City Council itself can supply the answer. Whether they wanted to embarrass the Government, I do not know … [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member who has just sat down dealt with the students at the university and other speakers on this side will deal with that subject. He also dealt with the Indian Market and the unhappy events there. I would like to add that I too am unhappy with what happened in regard to the re-establishment of that market, but I will deal with this later if I have the time.

I welcome the hon. the Minister to this department as well. I add my welcome to that of my colleague, the hon. member for Zululand. I also welcome him for another reason, I think he is probably the first Minister for some time in this department who has had some association with the Indian community and therefore he should understand them a little better than the previous Ministers. I hope that some of the comments and actions of the department will be less uninformed than they have been in the past.

I have always maintained that the functions of this department and particularly that of the hon. the Minister is to stand between the Indian community and the harsh and sometimes very cruel action of the Department of Community Development and the Department of Planning. I hope the hon. the Minister sees his role in the same light.

I would like to turn immediately to another matter which is one of very great moment to the Indian community in the city of Durban, where after all most of the Indian population of South Africa is residing. I would like to ask the hon. the Minister what role he and his department is playing in the establishment of the separate local authorities for Indians in Durban within the present city council area of Durban. I know the Minister must be aware of the plan to amalgamate both the north and the south Local Affairs Committees of the Indians with full control of Indian affairs and with ultimate full autonomy. It will have its own town council and mayor. This would be the first time in South Africa that in the confines of one city we will have two town councils and two mayors. If the plan goes through Durban will of course in time have three, because one would have to add the Coloured community as well, who is in exactly the same position. We will therefore have three town councils and three mayors in the city of Durban. I know that this is possible in terms of Government legislation of 1962 with amendments to the Group Areas Act. It has already been implemented with some degree of success in Verulam and Isipingo, but I would suggest that Durban is an entirely different matter, because the Durban area is not separate like these other areas. What would happen in Durban is that we would have islands of various group areas in the heart of the city.

One must bear in mind that the Grey Street complex, which has been declared Indian, will be part of a separate local authority for Indians right in the heart of the City of Durban near the business complex. Not having heard the hon. the Minister’s views on this matter, I should like to point out that it is an accepted principle in the world that amalgamation of smaller local authorities, where this is agreed to by the inhabitants, is the only way out of the financial dilemma the local authorities find themselves in. Indeed, Durban decided to do this itself some years ago when it extended its boundaries to take in areas such as the Bluff and so on. I would like to ask the hon. the Minister whether he seriously considers that Durban should disintegrate into separate city councils against the principle which is, as I say, recognized world wide and which is in fact in the process of being implemented to a degree both on the North Coast and South Coast of the City of Durban. These separate councils, I submit, will hardly be viable when one considers that the larger cities of South Africa have their own very serious economic problems. I would like to pose the question whether separate city councils which are already part of a larger area, can in fact be viable. The Indians have already claimed—and quite rightly— the Grey Street complex to be included in their sphere of influence under their own city council. They are quite right; after all, it has been declared an Indian area. The Durban City Council on the other hand, has said that it will not hand over the complex because Durban has its problems too with regard to making ends meet like every other city in the world. So the question of disintegrating a city council into separate councils is in fact one which flouts all known practices today. I believe that the hon. the Minister and his department should give guidance in respect of this question in the very near future.

Let me be the first to admit, and let me admit it very strongly, that the Indians of Durban have every reason to complain of their treatment in the past by the Durban City Council. I make no bones about that. One only has to visit these areas to see that the development there is retarded. This happens in other cities too. The Indians therefore certainly have a legitimate grouse in regard to this development, but we must be very careful in accepting that all race groups in a city must help to develop that city. For the life of me I cannot see how this particular system has any merit whatsoever. It flouts, as I have said, every known economic principle of local authority today. I do not believe that this should be accepted because succeeding generations, who are bound to change their thinking—after all we even have the phenomena that the Nationalist members are changing their thinking—are bound to change this order to reunite the city because it cannot exist in separate bits and pieces. I do not see how you can tear the heart out of a city in this way. These people, and all the people living on the city’s boundaries, have contributed to the growth of the city. They owe their living to the city and the city owes them a living as well. I would suggest that if one is to move in this direction, the only fair way to deal with the matter is to let, for example, the Indians unify their local affairs committees. That we must accept; I think it is inevitable, so that they can speak wth one voice. Ultimately we must move in the direction —and I am not playing politics at all with the hon. the Minister—of letting the Indian local authorities control their affairs, the Coloured theirs—they must in due course come with their proposals—and the Whites theirs, but over all of these there must in time, in the not too distant future, be a metropolitan authority to control all these matters. Although a metropolitan authority may not be round the corner, no action we take now should make it more difficult to achieve this because this is obviously the way in which things are going to move in the future.

I have one or two questions to ask with regard to the Indian Council. My colleague, the hon. member for Zululand, spoke a great deal about it. I should like to know what progress has been made with regard to the voters’ roll. I should like to point out to the hon. the Minister that the previous Minister said that the election of these five members would not be delayed. The life of the present council is coming to an end, and I would like to know whether these five members are going to be elected before the life of the present council expires, or is it going to happen when it expires. Secondly, I should like to appeal to the hon. the Minister, as I have appealed to his predecessors, that the Indian Council should behave in the same manner as the White, Bantu and Coloured authorities behave. All these bodies have their meetings open to the Press, so that the public can see what is going on. I believe it is time the Indian Council, too, opened its doors, even if it is only to its own Press. At any rate, there is certainly no justification for it to continue any longer in the manner that it has been doing.

What do you suggest?

I have just said that it should open its doors to the Press. Does the hon. member not understand English? Or must I put it in Afrikaans!

Please!

I, too, would like to ask the hon. the Minister, as I asked the Minister of Coloured Relations and Rehoboth Affairs during the discussion of the previous Vote, if he would come with me, and without his high-ranking officials—because we know what happens when one goes with high-ranking officials; one does not always hear or see what one should hear or see—to visit some of the Indian areas during the recess, at his convenience. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I read the following in the Graphic of 16th March, 1973,—

The hon. member can reply to that.

Ask the Durban City Council …

To interpret politics in South Africa correctly, it is also necessary to analyse the role of the propaganda machinery of the anti-National Party groups. As far as the anti-National Party Press in particular is concerned, we find its insinuations, destructive criticism, etc. particularly in its political commentary, headlines, etc. As an Afrikaans-speaking person I am only too well aware that every time a person turns against the National Party, they praise him for being “enlightened” and for being an “intellectual”. But if one adheres firmly to National Party principles, one is “controversial”, “out-dated”, or has a “laager mentality” and is “Ossewa-minded”. The English-speaking person with a sense of discipline and decency, those to whom the continued existence of the White man is meaningful and who do not regard the acknowledgment of diversity and the right to one’s own identity and sovereignty, as something unnatural, experience the same treatment in the Press and by the anti-National Party propaganda machinery. I should like to mention the hon. the Minister as an example. When the hon. the Minister was appointed as principal of the Natal University, people, quite justifiably, waxed lyrical about his abilities, and I agree with that. I want to quote examples to you. In the Natal Mercury of 18th September, 1965, we find the following—

In addition we find the following in the Mercury—

I want to quote to you further, Mr. Chairman, from the Natal University News. There we find the following—

Mr. Chairman, I can quote many other examples of this kind. This one, from the Sunday Tribune of 3rd April, 1966, reads as follows—

Mr. Chairman, I quote these examples to you from the Press, from the anti-National Party machinery, when they looked objectively and fairly at a man who attained to a very high post in Natal. It is interesting to note that this reflects the so-called broad-minded, broad, wide, enlightened way of thought of the anti-Nationalist group in South Africa, but as soon as a person comes forward, in the light of his knowledge and his wisdom, and adopts a standpoint aimed at drawing attention to and helping discipline and honesty, then the great propaganda machinery starts to act against the National Party, whether the National Party is represented by an Afrikaans-speaking person or an English-speaking person, and whether one is a Bantu, an Indian or a Coloured. That machinery then operates to destroy the person of that man and commit character assassination. Sir, I want to quote to you from the Sunday Times of 3rd August, 1969. In an editorial in, that newspaper we find the following—

Sir, the last paragraph, which I shall quote in a moment, is one of the dirtiest to be found in journalism. Sir, you know my background; I am accustomed to church council meetings and it is difficult to find a term to describe this kind of journalism. This paragraph reads—

That is an old story.

Sir, I want to say here today that the hon, the Minister, as well as Mrs. Horwood, are not only an asset to the National Party, but an asset to politics in South Africa. Here we have a proof that an English-speaking person may become a member of the National Party and that he can reach the highest rung in the National Party without in any way having to give up his identity and his sense of the values peculiar to his cultural group which, on the other hand, is the case when an Afrikaans-speaking person joins a political party other than the National Party. Sir, we are dealing here with the political head of the Department of Indian Affairs, a man who has not only reached the highest academic rung, but a man who, while he was in charge, gave meaningfulness and dignity to academic life in South Africa. Today we have at the head of the Department of Indian Affairs a man as capable as one can get, and my wish is that more Prof. Horwoods will come forward in South Africa, who will not only take their place in the academic world, but also in politics. Sir, the hon. the Minister became chancellor of the Indian University, and there he said the following, which is a model of the hon. the Minister’s philosophy of life and point of view in regard to universities. He said inter alia the following—

[Time expired.]

The hon. member for Rissik told us this afternoon how good the Minister is, but he did not say a word about the department and the work of the department. Sir, we have now heard how good the Minister is, but if the Minister is so good, then I am unable to understand why they did not allow him to stand as a candidate in Klip River in order to show us how good he really is. Sir, I should like to say that we on this side of the House welcome the hon. the Minister as Minister of Indian Affairs, and we want to express the hope that he will have more success as a Minister than he had as principal of an English-speaking university.

Sir, the hon. member for Rissik spoke about his experience with church councils. I think that after the following election he had better make himself eligible for some church council again.

Sir, the impression one gets of the Nationalist Party is that for twenty years they did not want to think about the Indian question and that they preferred to wait until this question became a problem to South Africa. The Indian community has been waiting for 20 years to hear from the Nationalist Party Government what their political and constitutional future in South Africa is. The mere fact that 620 000 people are patiently waiting, is certainly no reason for this Government not to give a decisive answer to their political future in South Africa. It is more than time we heard from this Government what their approach in regard to the Indians is, but before I come to that point, I just want to add that the potential of the Indians in South Africa is one of the greatest assets available to South Africa. But what is being done on the part of this Government to mobilize this potential-charged mass of people, 620 000 of them, to the maximum benefit of South Africa? Their potential, particularly in regard to the manufacturing industry, commerce and the construction industry, is being totally neglected under this Government. One of the most important reasons I want to mention here today is the job reservation measures by means of which the potential of this community is being restricted, and which make it impossible for them to develop to their full potential. One of the main reasons why South Africa has immigration schemes, is to bring skilled manpower to South Africa in order to create more job opportunities for the more unskilled and the more under-developed masses of South Africa. Here we have in our midst a mass of people, the Indian community, which offers an unlimited potential to assist us in this regard. But what is this Government doing? These people are subject to the worst form of discrimination, namely the job reservation measures.

This community, 620 442 in number according to the 1970 census, is also unaware of what its political future is to be under this Nationalist Party. The South African Indian community, certainly the most developed, the most mature, the most civilized and most westernized of all non-White groups in South Africa, is at present under the Nationalist Party régime, still at the lowest level of political and constitutional development.

What do you want to do for them?

The hon. member wants to know what we want to do for them. Sir, as far back as 1947, General Smuts’s Government offered the Indians representation in this House.

And they did not want it.

The hon. member must contain himself. He has already spoken; (give me a chance now. The Indian community refused this offer by General Smuts, wrongly in my opinion, but I believe that they did so under the influence of the then Prime Minister of India. Shortly afterwards, however, this Nationalist Party came to power and they removed that Act from the Statute Book and commenced their repatriation policy in regard to the Indians. Now I want to ask the Government what became of the repatriation policy?

What became of your old policy?

It took them 20 years and on 1st September, 1968, they eventually came to their senses to some extent and appointed the South African Indian Council. Last year we had legislation in this House in order (a) to make it possible for the Minister to increase the number of members of the Indian Council from 25 to 30; (b) to enable the Minister, after consultation with the Indian community, to make recommendations to the State President in regard to the method of electing the Indian Council, and (c) to make provision for the delegation of certain powers to the Council, in addition to education and welfare, for which provision was made in the legislation. The question of the increase in the number of Council members from 25 to 30 is in my opinion not of importance at this stage, but something we want to know more about from this hon. Minister is what is happening in regard to the future election procedure and delegation of powers to the Indian Council. We on this side of the House have said hundreds of times that we feel very strongly about the principle of a fully elected Council. And let me say that the excuse one finds in this report of the department, that a common voters’ roll for the Indians does not exist, is not acceptable to us on this side of the House. After being in power for 25 years this is really not something which this Government can be proud of. We want a reply from the hon. the Minister in regard to this matter. I want to say at once, and I do not want there to be any misapprehension about this, that I have the greatest respect for the good work and the inspiring way in which the S.A. Indian Council are performing their task. In fact, four of the seven Transvaal members are very well known to me and every year in the recess I try to get in touch with them. But the argument is that if all the Bantu peoples who in my opinion are at a far lower level of development than the Indian community of South Africa, have the right to elect territorial regional councils, and the Bantu in a city such as Soweto have the right to elect an urban Bantu council, there is no reason why the Indian community should not have the right to elect its own council. As long as the Indians do not have the right to elect their own representatives and the elected representatives do not have to be accountable to the Indian community, justice will not be done to the mutual trust between the representative and the voter. I am convinced that the majority of the present Indian council appointed by this Government, would prefer to serve in that council as a result of an election rather than by way of appointment by the Government.

But there is a third measure placed on the Statute Book by way of last year’s legislation. I refer to the delegation of powers to the Indian Council. I want to repeat that this community is surely capable of dealing with the administration of and responsibility for any of the powers at present administered by the Coloured Representative Council or by any of the territorial Bantu regional councils. We should like to hear from the hon. the Minister about progress in this field. I believe that the Indian community in general is also very keen to hear what the Government is going to do in this regard.

I believe, too, that the time has arrived when there will have to be clarity on the part of the Government in regard to the question of where they want to take the Indians politically and constitutionally and in what direction they want to move in regard to the Indians in South Africa. Our standpoint on this side of the House is very clear. Together with the legislative assemblies for the Whites, Coloureds and Bantu in the homelands or in the White areas, we will create an Indian legislative assembly for the 620 000 South African Indians within the framework of the federation of South African nations. As one of the units of a federal concept, the legislative assembly of the Indians would be co-ordinated with those of the other peoples in the federal council which would develop on an evolutionary basis under the leadership of this hon. House.

What, however, does this government offer in contrast? A kind of Indian council which hangs between “nowhere and somewhere”, like the Coloured Persons Representative Council which is a mere appendage of this House and will be under the domination of the Whites in South Africa for all time. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, after having listened to this speech, I am really surprised. The hon. member for Turffontein lodged a humanitarian plea here on behalf of the Indians, but he is the same hon. member who, as recently as last year, hawked photos around in Newcastle of the hon. the Prime Minister sitting between two Bantu women.

That is a lie.

That is a lie.

How are these two aspects to be reconciled?

Order! The hon. member for Durban Central as well as the hon. member for Turffontein must withdraw the word “lie”.

I withdraw it.

I withdraw it.

The hon. member said that the Indian population of South Africa was subject to the greatest discrimination in the field of work reservation. The hon. member is however quite uninformed. The real facts are that the occupational distribution of the Indians in South Africa is about exactly the same as that of the Whites. When we discussed this Vote last year, I quoted the figures. I think that is enough said about that hon. member.

Tell us about the football team in Newcastle.

I should like to associate myself with the sentiments that were expressed in congratulating our hon. Minister of Indian Affairs. [Interjection.]

Order!

The Indians of South Africa are really fortunate in having a Minister of Indian Affairs of this quality. The Indian population of South Africa therefore immediately accepted him as their confidant, because this man has already shown that he puts his words into action.

What man?

We are not speaking of the hollow phrases we had from hon. members such as the hon. member for Port Natal, which the Indians do not accept in any case; we are speaking of real actions. We are not speaking of the fine words hon. members on the opposite side are continually using in order to try and impress the Indians. But when it comes to actions we have the situation that was clearly depicted by the hon. member for Koedoespoort this afternoon, i.e. that the United Party City Council of Durban cannot do anything for them, and that it is merely a question of hollow phrases. The Indians have already discovered this. Hon. members must not forget this. We will put this weak-kneed attitude of the Durban City Council in those hon. members’ pipes, and let them smoke it. The other aspect of the matter is…

May I ask the hon. member a question? Does the hon. gentleman agree with his own member of the Provincial Council who said that job reservation should be scrapped?

I want to put it quite clearly to the hon. member that that is not in accordance with this party’s views. I am sure that Mr. Van Lingen had already indicated that he qualifies that statement very clearly.

*The fact is that that hon. member for Port Natal, together with the English-medium Press in Natal, have much to say about the group areas investigations that have been done in Newcastle. Where this Government has made an honest attempt to bring about proper planning in a fast-growing town, they did everything in their power to put a spoke in the wheel. We also know that the hon. member for Port Natal secretly tried to negotiate with the Indian leaders in Newcastle, but that they fobbed him off. I should like to express my gratitude tonight for the responsibility that was shown by the Indian leaders in this connection, and for their not allowing themselves to be misled by people who are merely trying to make political gain out of racial affairs.

May I ask the hon. member a question?

My time is very limited, and I cannot answer any question now. I am saying that it is a crime against South Africa when people fan racial fires for the sake of political gain. Those who do so play with fire. The hon. members should rather be a little constructive, and say …

Have you tried to keep the Indians out of Newcastle?

Order!

We need only pay a visit …

Yes, make it a long visit.

… to Durban-Westville and to the Indian residential area at Newcastle. There we shall see that the Indian population in South Africa is well off. Some of the best and most beautiful residences in South Africa are to be seen in that neighbourhood.

You are talking tripe.

Order!

The fact remains that there is a great backlog in respect of housing, but the Department of Community Development is doing more and more to meet those needs. Iscor is tackling an enormous housing project for Indians in Newcastle. With the possibilities for work and the opportunities that are being created there …

[Inaudible.]

Order! The hon. member for Port Natal must listen when I call him to order.

The city council holds a large housing scheme for the Indians in Newcastle in prospect, and the fact remains that the opportunities for work that are created as a result of this growth point offer the Indians a great challenge for the future.

Furthermore I should like to point out that we in Natal are to an ever-increasing extent putting the local affairs committees into operation. I should like, after all, to agree with the hon. member for Port Natal at least in respect of one aspect. I think that we should convert these local affairs committees more and more into full-fledged city councils. The Indian populations in South Africa has the necessary expert people to be able to do this work, and the sooner we afford them an opportunity to work at their own self-determination, the better.

I should also like to refer briefly to another very important matter.

Business suspended at 6.30 p.m. and resumed at 8.05 p.m.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Newcastle who spoke before the adjournment has been forced by circumstances lately to repudiate public figures in his constituency. Over the weekend it was necessary for him to repudiate his mayor on the matter of mixed sport where you had Indians playing not only against Whites, but also with Whites. Now it was necessary for him to repudiate his Provincial Councillor on the important matter of job reservation. I should like to know what the views of the hon. the Minister are in regard to these important matters which affect the Indian community. I expect answers from him because, after all, the hon. the Minister seems to be a very versatile man. In fact, it seems as if he is a man for all seasons. We know he has to carry the responsibility of two State departments. In addition, he is the chancellor of a university, having had previous experience as a principal of another university. Apart from that, he is in fact the leader of a party, the Nationalist Party in Natal, where he has to lead a team of three M.P.s and three Provincial councillors. It looks now as if he has a division within his team at the moment, because the hon. member for Newcastle is at loggerheads with his Provincial Councillor in regard to the matter of job reservation.

You are talking absolute tripe.

I would like to congratulate the hon. the Minister on his appointment as a Minister. He follows in the footsteps of a previous Minister who had to carry the responsibility of three State departments, namely the Department of Indian Affairs, the Department of Tourism and the Department of Sport and Recreation. I do not pretend to know why the hon. the Prime Minister entrusted the responsibility of only two State departments to him. I can only hope that he has enough work to keep himself occupied. It seems to me that the hon. the Minister has accepted an additional responsibility, namely the chancellorship of the University of Durban Westville. In this respect I want to wish the hon. the Minister all the luck in the world, because I think with his past experience of university administration, he will need all the luck in the world. In a more serious vein I want to say to the hon. the Minister that I think it was a mistake in his own interest and in the interest of the Indian community to have accepted the responsibility of being the chancellor of the University of Durban Westville. This university can easily develop into a focal point for Indian politics and it would be far better for the hon. the Minister and also for the Indian community if he refrained from accepting this appointment.

*There should be a mutual tie between the chancellor and the community which he serves. Mutual acceptability is of great importance. I accept that the hon. the Prime Minister, for example, is an acceptable chancellor for the University of Stellenbosch, although his name is not acceptable for Despatch. There is a mutual tie between himself and Stellenbosch. For the same reason I do not believe that the hon. the Prime Minister would ever have been an acceptable chancellor for the University of Cape Town. It is for this reason that I am giving the hon. the Minister this advice. The mere fact that he is the leader of the Nationalist Party in Natal and also Minister of Indian Affairs does not make him acceptable to the Indian community in the sense that he should be the chancellor of their university. It is not a reflection on the hon. the Minister in his capacity as Minister; the problem is that, in the policy of separate development, not even the theoretical advantages which are held out to the Bantu population groups in South Africa are held out to the Indians. Separate development does not offer this to the Indians. The possibility of political frustration of the Indians is a hundred times greater than in the case of all the other population groups. And whether we want to know this or not, they are going to give vent to these frustrations somewhere. In some way or other they are going to use part of the system of separate development to give vent to their frustrations. I may tell the hon. the Minister that the chances of the University of Durban Westville being used for this purpose are actually very likely. However, this is something which can be prevented, and which has to be prevented. I fear that events at this university during the past few months point very clearly to the university’s being quickly drawn into the political sphere. As far as this is concerned it may be a good thing that the hon. the Minister happens to be the chancellor of that university. There can be no doubt about it that political considerations have led to certain lecturers at that university having been discharged. I refer to Prof. Gering, and the lecturer Mr. Lamb. I accept that the university is an autonomous body. I also accept that they may lay down rules and regulations which people have to obey, but in the process they may not make themselves guilty of double standards. I believe that unfortunately this is the case, however.

I am sorry about this, but in this connection I have to refer to the political part played by the registrar of the University of Durban Westville. I respect him as a political opponent. I personally have nothing against his political activities, although he denies that he is active on a political level. I may tell you that I personally like the registrar of the University of Durban Westville to ask political questions at public meetings. Someone who asks questions can sometimes make a speaker’s meeting through the questions he asks, and the registrar of Durban Westville does have the special talent of asking one questions which can in fact make a success of the meeting. In spite of the fact that he has stated that nobody could prove that he had ever done it, I can bear witness to the fact that, when I together with the hon. member for Port Natal addressed a meeting during the 1970 provincial election, it was the registrar of the University of Durban Westville who asked me questions.

Order! What does this have to do with the Vote?

Mr. Chairman, the hon. the Minister is chancellor of that university, the University of Durban Westville, and he replies to questions put to him in this House. In that respect I can refer you to a question that was put to him, the reply to which appears in column 572 of this year’s Questions and Replies. About this specific matter a question was put to him. In his reply to this question he attempted to hide behind Government Notice No. R.47. dated 8th January, 1965, to the effect that his appointment was really a State post appointment. Now we must also accept that we have this very year passed a Public Service Amendment Bill, and that in clause 4 of that Bill we accepted that such a person could indeed take part in politics, could attend a meeting, but was not allowed to address it; and “address” includes the asking of questions. I just wanted to tell the hon. the Minister that in the set-up of the Indian community in South Africa they have a tremendous respect for education. In other words, the university plays a major part in their lives. The fact that double standards are now applied in regard to the administrative staff and the lecturing staff is going to lead to a confrontation. It is going to lead to the Indian community’s giving vent to their frustrations. I may just remind hon. members of the fact that a lecturer, Mr. Lamb, was apparently discharged as a result of certain letters he had written to newspapers. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, it is an exceptional privilege for me, as Minister of Indian Affairs, to be able to deal with my Vote in this House tonight. I want to express my sincere gratitude to my hon. colleagues on both sides of the House for their kind words of encouragement tonight, and the congratulations they addressed to me. I can tell them that I am most appreciative of the things they said. My friend, the hon. member for Rissik—he represents in this House the constituency in which I reside— made such kind remarks that even my wife, who was sitting in the Gallery, could not help blushing. However, I want to thank him sincerely too.

†In thanking hon. members for their very kind sentiments, I cannot but be struck by the very jarring note of the last speaker. Well, Sir, he is entitled to his views. If he thinks that this sort of petty and rather childish approach is the view he likes to take, then he is free to take it. I am not in the least interested or impressed by his views about my qualities or qualifications as a chancellor of a university, but I thought that it was a little unfortunate that he should have taken this opportunity tonight to go even further and in a very derogatory manner say that, after all, I only have two portfolios in the department—that perhaps it was a good thing, because I probably was not being fully employed anyhow.

Tell us about …

Will the hon. member just keep quiet? I will talk to him in a moment. You know, Sir, Lord Birkenhead once said that to be offensive, some people had to try to be offensive and others could not help themselves. I will leave it to the hon. member for Durban Central to decide in which category he falls.

As we know—but it needs to be said as a reminder perhaps—this is a young department. The Department of Indian Affairs was established in 1961. That is barely 12 years ago. I have been asked what our policy is. It is a perfectly legitimate question. In any case, I would have wished to try and say something about it tonight, and I shall do so. But I would like to remind hon. members of this House that the Indian Council was only established in statutory form in 1968, four years ago. I think it was the hon. member for Turffontein who wanted to know what this Government had really done for the Indians. Here it is, I think, perfectly fair and just to put the question in another form back to him, namely to ask him what his side of the House did when they were in power? What did they do for the Indians?

*You know, Sir, the policy of that side of the House, as far as the Indian population of South Africa is concerned, may be summarized in one word: i.e. repatriation. After all, there was a repatriation scheme. What became of it? But in 1960 and in 1961 perfectly clear statements of policy were made by the late Dr. Verwoerd, as well as in the following year by the then Minister of the Interior, Senator De Klerk, in which it was stated quite clearly where we were going with the Indian population of South Africa. I just want to remind the hon. member of what that policy involves.

†Mr. Chairman, this brings me back to the hon. member for Zululand, who asked the same question. He asked me particularly to tell him how I see our policy in relation to the Indian people as part of the overall policy of separate development in South Africa. He went further and stated that after all this policy of separate development was tied to the idea of a separate people or nation being themselves connected to their own geographical area or homeland. In the light of that he wanted to know where the Indian people, and the Coloured people too, for that matter, stand. I want to say to him that it has been said very clearly by the hon. the Prime Minister and others on this side of the House many times that our policy is a policy of separate development—that is perfectly correct—in the sense that we recognize the separate identities of the several different nations or population groups of this country. We want to bring them to a point where they can achieve their own aspirations in their own way. We recognize that there are fundamental differences such as cultural differences, ethnic differences and others, and by recognizing the separate identities of these several peoples, we would like so to devise our policy as to give them every opportunity to advance themselves to achieve those national aspirations for themselves. I cannot at all see why one has to qualify that policy, in the sense that one must distinguish between the policy as related to a people who have their own geographical homeland—there are historical reasons and logical reasons for this— and on the other hand as related to a people who are not, as it were, tied to a given geographical area, namely people like the Coloureds and the Indians, who are spread much more widely over the country.

Then our policy is perfectly valid.

Mr. Chairman, I am dealing with our policy now. The hon. member had his opportunity to state his policy if he wished to. Perhaps he will have a further opportunity to do so. I am busy answering his question.

Sir, he then came to the Indian Council. One must look at what we have achieved in this period of at most 12 years since this political philosophy was postulated by Dr. Verwoerd. Look at the constitutional developments that have taken place. We have this Indian Council. Now, it is perfectly true that this Indian Council is today an appointed body, consisting of 25 members. It is four years old—I am referring to the statutory body. We made provision in the amendment to the Act last year for a further five members who could be elected members. That will bring the number of members up to 30. I was asked how these members will be brought into this council and what methods will be adopted in this regard. I was also asked by the hon. member for Turffontein what powers would be delegated to this council. As far as the constitution of the council is concerned, the present term of office of members expires in August, 1974. After that it will be perfectly possible, in terms of the legislation, to vary the number of elected and appointed members. In fact if it were deemed possible, necessary, practicable or desirable, one could even go so far as to make them all elected members, but then the question still remains: In what way? I merely want to say that at this moment I am negotiating and consulting with the South African Indian Council on this very issue, to determine how they see the constitution of this council when the present tenure of office expires. We are dealing with that, and I have already arranged some time ago that shortly after the end of this session I shall be meeting the council in Durban for this very reason. Mr. Chairman, I do not want to anticipate the discussions, but there are very responsible discussions taking place and I have had some very responsible views put to me by this council. As to the methods to be used, if we are going to have a certain number of elected members as against appointed members, I must say that at the moment we have not got a satisfactory electoral roll.

*The hon. member for Turffontein said that what is lacking is a general voters’ roll for Indians; that is true.

†We are still in the process of having to organize a great deal of the mechanics of this matter, but there are methods; I am merely giving this as a possibility; I am not expressing any preference and I am not wishing to suggest in any way what I have made up my mind; my mind is absolutely open, but a possibility under present conditions would certainly be to use the principle of an electoral college. That is one possibility; and you could use the local affairs committees; you could use the town management boards, and you could possibly use other important national bodies. I have in mind, for example, a representative body like the Indian division of the Chamber of Industries in Natal. From all these bodies and others you could get a pretty representative body of voters, but I merely give this as a possibility and I say again that this matter is very much under consideration at the moment and I do not want to anticipate any discussions which are going to take place.

*I just want to tell the hon. member for Turffontein that, as far as the delegation of powers is concerned, provision has already been made for the delegation of powers in regard to welfare and education matters. It is simply a question of a date which the State President has to promulgate before this can be implemented. Provision has, therefore, been made. After that, i.e. once the newly appointed council is functioning, the Minister may even be able to transfer further duties and functions to the Indian Council. All these aspects of this important matter, i.e. the duty and functions of this council, will then of course be reconsidered. With this I hope I have replied to that point.

†Sir, I do not want to talk at too great length, but I wanted to make a short reference to the constitutional development. Sir, look at the progress that has been made with regard to residential and housing development. When I went to Durban towards the end of 1957 I found that on the western side of the University of Natal campus, down that hill, there was this absolute eyesore, Cato Manor, one of the biggest slums that one could see anywhere, I suppose.

What about Germiston?

Sir, within a matter of a few short years that whole area, which the Police told me contained something like 200 000 people over a weekend, was cleared; Chatsworth was constructed and the whole of that population was put into Chatsworth. Hon. members from Durban and Natal will know what Chatsworth looks like today. It is in fact an enormous town, and that is only one example. I have also been to Ladium outside Pretoria; I have been to Actonville and other places, and what has been done in these places is something of which I think this country can really be proud.

*The hon. member for Newcastle pointed out tonight that some of these Indian houses are among the best in South Africa; that is true; that is the position in Westville and in Actonville and in Ladium. To my mind that is an achievement this Government may truly be proud of.

†Then, Sir, when we come to the question of education, we come to what is perhaps the most important aspect of all in this process and policy of the development of the Indian community. What have we achieved in this connection? We have 175 000 Indian pupils at school in South Africa today; we have more than 6 300 Indian teachers; we have 367 schools and two training colleges. There is a school for the blind and a school for the deaf, and there is a school of industries. There is a magnificent college for advanced technical education, the M. L. Sultan Technical College, which has between 7 000 and 8 000 students. It is one of the biggest in South Africa. Then we have a university which is in its infancy and which was only officially opened the other day by the Prime Minister, and which I believe, as it is being constructed and developed at the moment, is going to have not only one of the most beautiful campuses in South Africa, or anywhere for that matter, but is going to be a very fine university. There are already in that university, after a short period of at most 12 years, 2 300 students, whereas when it started there were 114. There are 157 members of the academic staff, of whom 38 are Indian already, and I say “already” because when we started that university I think there were only two Indian staff members.

*As I understood him to say, the hon. member for Durban Central referred to political considerations which applied in the appointment of certain staff members. I want to reply briefly to what he said. I shall come back to that aspect. I think that was a most unreasonable statement to make.

†Sir, when it comes to education, it is not generally known, even in this country today, that we have had compulsory education in Indian schools as from the beginning of this year. Sir, I want to ask hon. members in how many countries of Africa there is compulsory education, yet for the Indian community of this country, the costs of whose education are being substantially borne by the Whites, as it happens—and we do not object to this; I merely mention it as a fact—we have compulsory education for students up to the age of 15 years, as from the beginning of this year.

Up to what standard?

In demarcated areas only.

No, Sir, this is country-wide. It starts with Std. 1 as from this year, up to the age of 15, but each year, as the hon. member for Green Point will realize, it will of course be extended until within a few years it will go right through to the top.

May I ask the hon. the Minister a question? Could the hon. the Minister tell us whether there is any population group in South Africa which per capita spends so much of its own money on education as the Indian community in South Africa?

Sir, I am glad that the hon. member for Durban Point raised this matter. I want to compliment the Indian community on precisely that. The fact that the Indian community, economically speaking, is the most advanced of our non-White groups is largely due, I think, to the great value that they place on the education of their children.

Do they not get any credit for it?

The hon. member must give me a chance to put my case. There will be other opportunities for members to speak afterwards. What I am saying is that the Indian community are not by any means footing the whole bill for their education, and I am not criticizing them for that. The cost of running the university, for example, is being borne entirely by the Government. Provision is being made in these Estimates for R4¼ million for this year. Sir, in saying this I am not criticizing anybody, but I am stating this as a fact to be borne in mind. You know, Sir, in 1927 when the Cape Town Agreement came into being, it was a milestone in the development of the Indian community and particularly Indian education. The Hon. V. S. Sastri was the agent of the Government of India in this country. In 1927 he explained this Cape Town agreement to the Indian community at a meeting in the city hall of Durban in a speech worth reading. In that speech he congratulated the Indian community even then on the progress they were making in the economic sphere and he drew attention to the substantial number of their members who were making a very good living indeed. He congratulated them on the success they were making in their economic life but he impressed on them the absolute importance of their putting aside something of that, as he said, generous reward they were receiving for their work, for education. And I believe the Indian community took that lesson to heart. But I draw attention to the great development of Indian education and I say this is something which I think this Government, in the last few years particularly, has had a very big hand in; it is indeed a very fine achievement that we can talk about.

Sir, we talked about separate education and many hon. members opposite have criticized this concept a great deal, right from the inception of the Extension of University Education Act. We have a separate university for Indians. What was the position? When I was at the University of Natal in 1957 we had in the University of Natal a separate non-White section consisting mainly of Indian students. That was set up first in the 1930s and it was developed under the term of office of Dr. Malherbe as principal of the university. It was a separate non-White section where we used to give lectures in the late afternoons and the evenings, the same classes and the same lecturers, but it was an absolutely separate wing of the university. If that was not separate development on an educational basis, what was it? I want to ask, if that could have been freely and voluntarily adopted by the University of Natal in the 1930s, without the criticism we heard later, why then could this university, which has been developed in Natal as a university for the Indian people, and which has achieved such tremendous success in s short time—why must this university be attacked and subjected to the sustained vendetta which it is facing today? And I want to come back to this point because I think it is one of the most scandalous things that is happening in our country today, when we talk about the Indian people. Why should it be so when this university is such a success today? It is exactly the same philosophy; it is a separate institution. I want to say to this House today that I know the Indian people. I really did try to get to know the Indian people in the 15 years I spent in Natal and I can assure this House tonight that the Indian community of South Africa, apart from a few of the difficult and dissident members of the Indian Congress and that type, have accepted this university in the fullest sense of the word.

Second-rate students. [Interjections.]

Order!

Only the other day the hon. the Prime Minister went there to open this university at the Chiltern Hills site; it was a heart-warming experience. You know, reference has been made tonight to this campaign that went on for weeks and weeks in advance, that here was going to be plenty of trouble, that there was going to be a boycott of the whole thing and that it would be a complete failure. You want to read the Sunday Tribune and the Daily News for weeks and weeks before this, but what happened? There was a magnificent turn-out. A huge hall, which could compare with any university hall in this country, was full, absolutely full, and there was not a single incident of any kind whatsoever. I wish hon. members could have seen the spirit that prevailed there, and at the reception afterwards. It was something which I am likely to remember for a very long time.

I want to come back to this question of the attack on the university, but at the moment I just want to say that I think that in the last few months particularly we have managed to achieve a few other things for the Indian community and one is very pleased about it.

Order! Will the hon. member who whistled please stand up? This is the second time it has happened. I warn the hon. member for Moorreesburg that I shall not tolerate a repetition of such behaviour.

During the past few months we have succeeded in bringing about some relaxation in the restrictions on the movements of Indian persons from one province to another, restrictions which have existed ever since 1913. We were able to change this state of affairs towards the end of last year. During the last few days we succeeded in abolishing the advisory council at the university so that Indians themselves are able to serve on the council during this transitional period. As I have already mentioned, we now have compulsory education in the schools. All these things we achieved during the past few months.

†I say these are very big strides indeed and I think that when you bring about such a very big change, which the Indian community has been asking for for a very long time, like this relaxation in the restrictions on the inter-provincial movements of Indians, where the position now is that the Minister of Indian Affairs will be able to relax these restrictions—and I am going into this matter at the moment and there will be an enormous improvement—you know the position—up to now if an Indian wanted to go from Durban to Johannesburg for one day, he had to get a permit.

Disgraceful.

Yes, but that started in 1913 under your Government. [Interjections.]

Order!

You have already been in power for 25 years.

From 1913 to 1948 is a long time. Why did that Government not do anything about it? [Interjections.] In any case, I do not want to quarrel about it. I am simply mentioning this fact.

†I want to say this. Sir, in order to show you the sort of spirit which we still find in this country today. Here was this very far-reaching measure which the Indian community have hailed as one of the most important concessions they have had in years. I have these things in letters. The Indian Council have told me this. What does the Natal Daily News say about this, when it was announced that there was this big relaxation of the restrictions on the movements of Indians? What does the Natal Daily News do? It was said that it would be a very substantial change and the Natal Daily News, without bothering to ask anybody—they do not hesitate to get into touch with me when it suits them— published an editorial saying: “Thanks for nothing.” Sir, this is the trouble in this country today. When this Government goes out of its way to make a major contribution to the improvement of race relations, what is the reaction on the part of a newspaper with a big circulation in Natal where the majority of the Indians are? It says to the Indian community: “Thanks for nothing. You have got nothing. It is a bluff".

May I put a question?

No. [Interjections.]

Order! I wish to point out that the hon. the Minister, and, for that matter, any speaker has the right to refuse to answer questions. Hon. members may get up later and I shall give them the opportunity to address the Committee.

Thank you, Sir, There is another concession which we have made. In the Transvaal the Indians have for a long time been asking that Indian households be given the opportunity to employ Bantu to work in their gardens and their homes, where these people are in business all day and the Bantu are available. In this regard the hon. the Minister of Bantu Administration has seen his way open to grant this permission, and I am very grateful for it. Again it is immensely appreciated by the Indian community. This has happened only in the last few months.

The hon. member for Port Natal mentioned the proclaiming of Grey Street as a commercial area for Indians. I think this is a further piece of evidence of this Government’s whole attitude towards this community in South Africa.

And it took you 12 years to do it.

In all these matters we cannot go faster than the means at our disposal will allow. I believe that within the limits of that extremely important requirement we are really doing everything we reasonably can to assist the Indian community to bring themselves to a stage where they can really help themselves, because that is the great aim of our policy: To put them in a position where they can feel they are a substantive self-supporting community who can go forward in co-operation with us, in the spirit which exists today, to fulfil their real destiny as they see it. I have already referred to the need for this to happen, for the Indian community themselves to make the maximum effort and the maximum contribution to help themselves.

There are one or two other points. The hon. member for Port Natal asked me why the meetings of the South African Indian Council could not be open. I may say to him that the position at the moment is that the Press are allowed into those meetings at the discretion of the chairman. It is therefore entirely up to the Indian Council. If the chairman is agreeable that they come in, they come in and this has happened many times. However, we do not have the facilities at the moment—the Indian Council itself pointed this out— to allow the public as such to come in there. We are looking into that matter in view of the fact that the new council will have to be constituted very soon and we hope that we shall be able to provide the necessary facilities.

I think the hon. member for Port Natal also asked me about the establishment of a local government body for Indians in Durban. The hon. member raised an important point, but he should not have addressed the question to me. He should have addressed the question to the United Party provincial administration in Natal, because this is a provincial matter, [Interjections.] The hon. member shakes his head but this is a provincial matter. The position is that my department, as one can imagine, is extremely interested in this and we are keeping, as one might say, an interested eye on the situation, but we certainly do not wish to intervene directly at this moment where we have competent authorities, I hope. I really hope so. I want to say, however, that if the United Party provincial administration wishes to bring this about, they have to move on, because we have some designs on Natal ourselves. [Interjections.] I do not want to frighten them, but I have to warn them.

*The hon. member for Turffontein put certain questions to me in regard to the delegation of powers, and I think I have already replied to them.

May I ask the hon. the Minister a question? I should like to know from the hon. the Minister what national aspirations on the part of the Indians can be realized.

My goodness me, Mr. Chairman, I was hoping that the hon. member would not go to sleep while I was speaking. I have pointed out what the future prospects are for Indian constitutionally. There is an Indian Council which in time will be an all-Indian elected body. This will be a legislative body.

Which year?

That is the last hon. member who should have asked that question, because his Government never gave a year for anything. [Interjections.]

Order!

I have already tried to sketch very briefly the educational position for the Indians today. It compares with anything we have in this country.

I am talking about the constitution.

Take the business position which I have not mentioned, but the hon. member now asks me about it. The Indian trader is known throughout the country and he has made a tremendous contribution to our economy. In industry alone in the last few …

Answer his question.

The Indians have invested nearly R40 million in industry during the last few years. Is this not a tremendous development? Does this not make a difference to their income and their earnings? If I may, I want to come …

Is industry a national aspiration?

Yes, economic advancement is one of the most important aspirations of any people that is worth its salt as the antecedents of the hon. member for Durban Point ought to have been able to tell him.

May I come to another point? I mentioned this attack on the University of Durban-Westville and I want to say something about it tonight because I have had a little bit of experience of these tactics myself. I know what is behind this sort of thing.

He is back on his hobby-horse!

For a few months there has been the most sustained vendetta against the University of Durban-Westville in the Sunday Tribune and the Daily News and it breaks out sporadically in other places. Why should this be? The Rector is under constant attack. He is accused of being a member of the Broederbond. If an appointment is made the papers say that Prof. Olivier, who is a member of the Broederbond … [Interjections.] I hope that hon. members are not associating themselves with these tactics because I am going to explain them.

Is it a disgrace to belong to the Broederbond?

That hon. member must keep quiet. I as Minister of Indian Affairs and now as Chancellor of the University have never ever thought of asking the Rector, Prof. Olivier, whether he is a member of the Broederbond, since it has nothing to do with me. I have never asked him if he is a Free Mason; I have never asked him whether he is a member of the Jockey Club of South Africa, since these things do not have anything to do with me. With great respect, I want to say that it has nothing to do with the newspapers and it has nothing to do with the Opposition. [Interjections.] Prof. Olivier is one of the most dedicated, one of the most highly principled and one of the most highly qualified academics in this country today and I have known him for many years. At the moment his health is absolutely ruined by this tremendous strain under which he has to work day and night. At this moment his health is in a very sad state. I think it is a disgraceful state of affairs. The council of the university is under constant attack. There was a young temporary lecturer, Mr. Lamb, who in fact violated certain terms of his appointment.

He wrote a letter.

He was not forced to resign from anything but the papers have for months been saying that this man was forced to resign. I have looked at the facts. I have the facts with me, if the hon. member would like to look at them because he is a fair-minded man. This man went overseas when it suited him and he simply resigned. A few weeks after he had gone overseas and when he was well out of the way, there was a huge article in the Daily News which was almost a page long wherein he said the most dreadful things about this university and its senior officers. He did that when he was out of the country and I can tell hon. members that it is a tissue of untruths and half-truths. I say this because I know what the facts are. Now we come to a further issue. These things are serious matters because they affect a university very badly. Now we come to an issue where we have had a temporary lecturer appointed in the law department.

There was a committee of three senior staff members appointed to make the recommendation as to whom of the three applicants should be appointed. One of those applicants happened to be an Indian, but by a majority of two to one that committee decided to recommend, for good reasons which they set out, a particular gentleman who was a White. The Indian did not get the job. Members of this House may have seen the agitation that has been on the go since then. There has been absolute intellectual defamation of this university and its senior officers as a result: Yes it was done in an absolutely regular way.

Worst of all, there was a professor of law whose appointment was on probation. His appointment—and I hope the hon. member for Durban Central will listen to this —was not confirmed. After the first year on probation it was decided that they could not confirm his appointment, but that he would be given an extension of his probationary appointment if he wishes to take it, and he took it.

I want to suggest that any man who has any sense at all must immediately realize that there must be something that is worrying the authorities that they cannot confirm his appointment right away. He is perfectly free at any time to go to the proper authority to discuss the matter. When it came to the end of that second period it was decided that the appointment would not be confirmed. It was the end of March, 1973. Then out of the kindness of its heart the university, and as I think, if I may say so perhaps misguidedly, said that they would give him until the end of the year in order to make other arrangements. Then the fun really started. There was an enormous agitation in these newspapers, amongst certain students and among certain members of the staff that this man was done this grave injustice and that the whole thing was irregular. The gravest reflections were on cast on Prof. Olivier, the council and the registrar—absolutely unjustly. This man said that he was never given the reasons why his appointment was not confirmed. The fact of the matter is that in front of senior members of the university he had been told precisely why his appointment was not confirmed. I have the reasons here.

Are you talking about Gering?

Yes, Prof. Gering. Things got so bad after 31st March that recently the council decided that things could simply not go on like this any longer and they then said that they would terminate his appointment but that they would pay him up to the end of June. That is the position. But now there has been this tremendous agitation and it has been said that this is unjust. It has been said that this is done because this is a Nat. university. I have all the papers here. In the Sunday Tribune it was said that this is a Nat. Broederbond university and that this has been done in order to get this man out because he is the great champion of the Indian cause. They gave that as the reason why there was this so-called discrimination against him and why he was being victimized.

I want to ask in this House tonight who are greater champions of the Indian’s cause in this country than Prof. Olivier and the council of that university under Prof. Nienaber, who is a very great personal friend of mine, one of the finest men in any university in this country today. Who is a greater champion of the Indians’ cause than those men? I do not want to attack Prof. Gering, but I will defend the honour and the integrity of these men, Prof. Olivier and the members of the council. I want to say that I consider this to be a national disgrace. I think it is high time that the chairman and the directors of the Argus group should go into the question of the competence of the editor of the Daily News and the competence of the editor of the Sunday Tribune to hold the jobs they are holding, because they have been doing nothing but casting the gravest reflections on these men by espousing the cause of Gering morning, noon and night for months on end against the facts. This is a very serious matter indeed.

May I ask the hon. the Minister a question? Do you agree that the registrar of a university could be an official actively engaged in Nationalist Party politics?

I will answer that question. I am coming to the question of the registrar, I can assure the hon. member, but I do not want to be deflected for the moment from this all-important point because we are talking of academic freedom.

We talk of academic freedom but this is the grossest abuse of academic freedom I can think of. This is abuse of academic freedom from beginning to end. I do not want to read from all the documents and newspaper articles I have, but I want to say that this is a disgrace. This is something any self-respecting and responsible Government must look at. Why is this university being subjected to this scandalous attack by people who are not fit to tie the shoe laces of the Rector and the members of the council of the university? I want to know why. We demand an answer from those newspapers, and not only from the newspapers. What I think is equally bad—this is something unprecedented—is that certain professors of the University of Natal have seen fit to join in this witch hunt. Professors from a sister university have joined in the witch hunt against the Rector and the council of the University of Durban-Westville on the Gering issue. I refer particularly to a man who should know better as he is head of the law faculty of the University of Natal, Durban, namely Prof. A. S. Mathews. He has cast grave reflections on the council. He said that there had been irregularities and that the procedure, as adopted, was not the procedure that was adopted at reputable universities. I challenge Prof. Mathews tonight to substantiate those very grave charges. Let me just remind hon. members that this is the gentleman who has written an article, and also a book; he is of course the self-appointed authority on the security laws of South Africa. This is what the Sunday Tribune said—

In other words, a totalitarian state—

Disgraceful!

He goes on to say—

This is quoted by the Sunday Tribune as having been said by Prof. Mathews. The article goes on to say—

This is the man who wrote another article and fell foul of one of the most respected men in Natal, namely the hon. Mr. Justice Broome.

He is entitled to express his opinion.

As I say he is one of the most respected men in Natal and any lawyer here will know his standing in the legal profession. The hon. Mr. Justice Broome referred to an article by Prof. Mathews which dealt with the Suppression of Communism Act and gave the description of this Act that Prof. Mathews gave. He quotes what Prof. Mathews said. The hon. Mr. Justice Broome went on to say—

The definition given by Mathews—

Then he says—

This is the last part of what I have read—

Sir, this is the man who is now attacking the University of Durban-Westville on an absolutely unfounded basis. I ask, why? When I said some years ago that there was a conspiracy involving certain pressmen, certain university people and—I regretted then and still regret to say—certain church people in South Africa to subvert the proper constitutional system of government and the way of life in South Africa, I was absolutely hounded down. I repeat it here tonight, and I say it is the most serious matter. What are they trying to do? They are trying to incite the Indians against the Whites by attacking this university. That is it.

Tripe!

The hon. member says “tripe!”. I shall remember that. It will be in Hansard, and we shall see about that. [Interjections.]

Mr. Chairman, on a point of order, is the hon. member for Port Natal allowed to tell the hon. the Minister he is talking “tripe”?

The hon. the Minister may continue. [Interjections.]

Sir, I just want to refer to one other point. The hon. member for Koedoespoort referred to the Indian market in Durban which was destroyed by fire towards the middle of March. Do you know, Sir, I waited a few weeks to see what the Durban City Council was going to do. It did absolutely nothing. In fact, it did less then nothing—it accepted a formal decision to do nothing. [Interjections.] I have here the Natal Mercury of 30th March, 1973, and I quote—

†When I saw that, I immediately asked the Mayor of Durban to come to see me here in Cape Town to find out what was going on. He came here with certain of his councillors and officials, and I was told in no uncertain terms that the city council was not going to do anything about the matter. They were not going to rebuild anything. One has to know Durban and Natal to know what this market means to the Indian community and to Natal. For 63 years this market has been a landmark. 5 000 to 6 000 people were directly dependent on this market for a living. Apart from that, thousands upon thousands of Whites, Bantu, Indians and Coloureds have done their shopping there day by day. Hon. members will know that this is so. Here this market burns down; there is calamity overnight, and the Durban City Council says: “We wash our hands of it. We will not touch it.” Sir, do you know what the Durban City Council did a couple of years ago when there was a flood in Port Elizabeth? They voted R50 000 immediately as a relief measure. And yet, when the Indian community’s immediate interests were involved, they said: “It is no concern of ours.” Well, Sir, we did some straight talking and as a result the Durban City Council eventually agreed that they would cooperate to put something in its place. I took the initiative and set up a small representative committee to study the position and to advise us how to go about it both immediately and in the long run. The City Council told us then that they could find the money; they would lend money to put up temporary facilities, as I thought, on the market site. Eventually they agreed that these temporary facilities should be erected there, but only after a lot of objections. Then they came back and said that they would not put up the money; they could not find the money. I then went to the hon. the Minister of Finance, and immediately I was given permission to say that the Government would put up to R100 000 for this project. As a result I was able to say: “Let us start this immediately.” R100 000 was granted, Mr. Chairman, with no strings attached. Again, after a few weeks during which nothing seemed to be happening, the mayor, with a deputation of his people, came to see me here. I expressed my grave concern that nothing was happening. Then all sorts of practical issues were raised. There was the question of the competence of the Durban City Council to do this, the question of compliance with medical requirements, and the question of the dangers resulting from the operation of the market—the police had been unhappy about the area there when the market was in operation. All these things could have been dealt with administratively quite easily, and I pointed this out. So, then, again it was decided that the Durban City Council would go ahead and that they would put up temporary facilities. But, Sir, this has not yet started because the Durban City Council now say that they insist that the Government guarantees in writing that this market will only stand for three years; it must be pulled down after three years. Now, Sir, what has the Durban City Council done? Let us be quite fair.

May I ask the hon. the Minister a question?

No, not at the moment. They have built a wall to separate those stalls, about 40 or 50 of them, which were undamaged or relatively undamaged, and those are being used by produce and meat dealers. Another 40 stalls have been found in Chatsworth, and we are anxious that they should be used as well. But that still leaves 150 to 160 stalls which are desperately needed by these traders to get going. The money is there; everything is there, but the willingness and the co-operation on the part of the Durban City Council to get moving is lacking, because they say we have got to give them an undertaking that that temporary structure will be there for only three years. Those are the facts, Sir; it is all here. I do not want to take up more of the time of the House. I do, however, want to say this tonight: Whatever legal powers we have and whatever authority we can bring to bear, I want to assure this House and the Indian community, as well as the public—because the public in Durban want this market re-established, particularly as a humanitarian act—that we, this Government, will not shirk our duty. That temporary structure is going to go up there by hook or by crook and it is going to happen very soon. I would like to leave it at that.

Mr. Chairman, once again we are discussing one of the departments dealing with one of the peoples of Southern Africa, one of the non-White peoples. The National Party firmly believes in separate development and rejects the idea of integration. Equally important, however, is the fact that the National Government is serious and honest in its intentions with regard to every population group in South Africa, non-White or White. Surely this is the most important aspect. The situation in South Africa, as is probably the case in all countries in the world, is still far from the ideal, but something that is very certain, is that a considerable amount has already been done and that considerable progress has already been made. Not only has considerable progress been made; indeed, through this Government much progress has been made in the development of the social, economic and political participation of every population group in the Southern African context. Therefore it is very clear that there is much progress.

†Mr. Chairman, the United Party continually makes a political playball out of not only the Indian community, but also the non-White communities. In the South African context this is something we can no longer afford, because there is a tremendous amount of goodwill that must be built up in Southern Africa. Not only in South Africa, and not only in Africa, but in the whole world, this conflagration is something that is rather explosive and I would appeal to the Opposition to stop using the Indian community or any other community purely as a political playball. Responsible leaders of the Indian community are appreciative of the positive work that has been done and is being done by the Government for the development of the Indian community. To an increasing extent the attitude of the Indian community towards the Government has changed and is changing from one of distrust to one of trust. But there is also an increasing distrust by the Indian community in the lip-service being paid by the Opposition. That can be seen by what the hon. the Minister has just referred to, namely the lack of any positive contribution to their development by the Durban City Council, for example, and by the way in which the Natal Provincial Council has been dragging its feet in the matter of the political development of these people at the local level.

The hon. member for Turffontein asked the Minister a question about the political aspirations of the Indian community. He wanted to know what was being offered to them. Sir, he should know that of all the Indian communities on the whole of the African continent, the Indian community in South Africa is most appreciative, has the least to fear for its political future, and feels the most secure as far as its economic and social security is concerned. The Indian community, unlike the hon. member for Turffontein, is not nearly as worried about its political development as is the case elsewhere on the African continent. In this respect I feel it is necessary to comment on a remark read by the brother of Mr. Rajab from a speech which he was supposed to hold, but could not, due to illness. He said that the Whites should be prepared to share political power. This is the type of speech one becomes accustomed to from the leaders of the Transkei KwaZulu and other Bantu areas, and it almost appears as though they are being led into this sort of attitude by the Opposition Press. But what Mr. Rajab appreciates, and should appreciate, is that if the principle of the Whites sharing political power with non-Whites within a single political context should be accepted, there is no guarantee that the same fate will not befall the Indian community of South Africa that has befallen the Indian communities of Uganda, of Tanzania and of other countries in Africa.

That is an insult.

I do not care whether it is an insult, but that is nevertheless the factual position. If you create a political consensus in a single political power structure, then that is exactly the future that will face the minority Indian community in Natal.

You are an idiot.

Order! The hon. member for Port Natal must withdraw the word “idiot”.

I withdraw it and I call him a fool.

Order! The hon. member knows the rules as well as I do. His withdrawal must be unconditional.

I withdraw it.

The hon. member may proceed.

Sir, I take that remark from whence it comes. There is still a tremendous amount that requires to be done but, as I have already said, the progress has been phenomenal. Mr. Chairman, as far as housing for the Indian community is concerned, it is true that in spite of what has been done there is still a tremendous housing shortage, but I am confident that many tens of thousands of Indians who have been provided with housing at a reasonable cost are appreciative of the fact that they have at last been released from the savage grip of exploitation, in many instances by unscrupulous Indians themselves, and once again in this field there has been tremendous progress.

Sir, there is one further aspect which I feel I would like to raise under this Vote. I feel that the time has arrived for serious consideration to be given to the installation of a full-time F.M. radio service for the Indian community. In the same way as radio services have been provided for the various Bantu communities of Southern Africa, so I feel that a full-time F.M. radio service should be made available, especially in Natal, to the Indian community. I feel that the short time of two hours—one hour on Saturdays and one hour on Sundays— which is made available to them is not nearly sufficient for this community who have done a tremendous amount to develop themselves and, for that matter, to contribute to the progress not only of their own community but to the progress of the whole of South Africa. It is in this spirit of co-operation but at the same time in a spirit of separate development that progress can be made. Mr. Chairman, I would like to know from the hon. member for Durban Central and other hon. members of the Opposition exactly what members of the United Party have done in relation to the replacement of the Indian market which was ravaged by fire recently. I feel that there has been tremendous progress, and this Government primarily has been responsible for the tremendous development that has taken place and that will continue to take place in future.

Mr. Chairman, in the 12 years that I have been in this House I have never heard such hypocrisy as I have had to listen to this evening.

Order! The hon.

member must withdraw that.

I withdraw the word “hypocrisy”. I have never heard such sick-making double-talk in my life as I have heard from the last two speakers on that side.

Why so furious?

Order! The hon. member must withdraw the expression “sick-making double-talk”.

I am sorry, I withdraw it. I have never been so disgusted in my life as I was at what I heard from the last two speakers from that side.

Don’t be a cad, man!

Order! The hon. member must withdraw that.

I withdraw it.

Sir, I listened to the hon. the Minister for an hour and a quarter and he ended up with a criticism of the Durban city council for not immediately and enthusiastically rebuilding the Indian market in Durban.

Temporarily.

This from a Minister who has joined a Government which for the last 25 years has done its utmost to break the economic power of the Indian community. [Interjections.]

Nonsense.

This from a Minister of a Government which in respect of almost every town in the Transvaal has driven the Indian community to a place in the veld 10 miles out of the town. This from the leader of the party in Natal whose member for Klip River has just spoken and who did his utmost to see that the Indian community in Grey Street did not retain that area. [Interjections.] This from the leader of the party in Natal whose member for Newcastle did his utmost to get all the Indians out of Newcastle and into a place outside the town; this from the leader of the third member of the Nationalist Party we have in Natal, the hon. member for Vryheid, who represents an area where not a single Indian can go in without a permit. Sir, to listen to this sort of thing from a gentleman whose leader and whose party stand for that, for the removal of every existing economic right the Indian people have had for the last 50 years, and for the crippling of them in the economic field at every opportunity is, as I say, the most sickening thing I have heard for years.

Now, what was the position in regard to the Indian Market in Durban? The attitude of the Durban City Council, which is not a United Party body, but which nevertheless deserves a hearing, was based on two things, firstly the strong opposition by the S.A. Police to its being re-established in that place … [Interjections.] … and secondly, because there are plans for a ring-road to go through that area. [Interjections.] But let us forget for a moment about the Indian Market, which is a very small trading centre.

Let us deal with the Grey Street complex which is the main economic powerhouse of the Indian people of Natal. Until last year, year after year, those people did not know where they stood, and not because of the Durban City Council. The Durban City Council pleaded year after year for those people in Grey Street to be given their permanence. Those people did not know where they stood because of the pressure of the Nationalist Party in Natal who were against it.

As I have said, we listened to this hon. Minister for 1¼ hours. What did he say on the main issue of the day, namely the philosophy of the Government in regard to the Indian people? Absolutely nothing, Sir. We had a series of platitudes from the hon. gentleman about the Indian people being able to aspire to great heights, and there being no impediment placed on their advancement. Sir, I say to him again: Where do they fit into the philosophy of separate development? They may never have any representation in the sovereign body which governs this country. They are to remain for all time part of White South Africa. There is a limit on the development of their Indian Council.

That is what you say.

Order! The hon. member for Newcastle must give the hon. member an opportunity to make his speech.

There is a limit on the development of their Indian Council. Where then do they fit into the philosophy of separate development? Or is it the intention of the hon. the Minister to develop a homeland for the Indian people? This is the crux of the matter, Sir, because we all know—we have heard it so many times—that in respect the Bantu people their rights in the White areas are limited because the sky is the limit in their homelands. There is no ceiling on their development in the homelands but there is every limitation on their development in the White areas. Now, the Indians do not have a homeland, or have they? How then does the philosophy that they can have everything in their area that we have in ours apply to the Indian people? This is the key to politics today. We have given our standpoints, chapter and verse over the last three years. It is time that the Government who has been in power for 25 years gave us just one little chink of light as to its policy in this regard.

We come to the Indian Council. Numbers of us on this side last year and the year before gave chapter and verse as to the powers we would give to that council, as to the direction we believe it should take. The hon. the Minister has been in office for nearly a year, the department has been in existence for nearly 11 years and the Government has been in power for 25 years, but what did we get today? Platitudes that he is going to consult the Indian Council. When I first stood up I wondered, but I realized after all: Frankie Waring had something after all. [Interjections.] What have we been told about the progress that has been made for the voters’ roll, about the qualifications voters will have to have, about the type of constituencies that they will have, about the degree of an elected element that the Indian Council will have, about the executive powers that the Indian Council will have? We can only speak for ten minutes, but the hon. the Minister talked for an hour and a quarter, but we are no further forward than when we started.

Let us come to the Durban-Westville University. I had thought when I was elsewhere in another place that the hon. the Minister’s Achilles heel was the enormous chip that he carried on his shoulder of his experiences in academic spheres elsewhere. I had occasion to say elsewhere that it was the bore of the year to listen to the hon. the Minister’s troubles when he was in the academic sphere. We face precisely the same situation tonight. We are not the least concerned with or interested in the hon. the Minister’s troubles of the past in regard to his academic troubles.

You do approve of what happened at Durban-Westville, do you not?

What we are troubled with today in so far as the university is concerned is that in its academic staff and in its administration it is a known hobbed of the Nationalist Party. That is the trouble Why did the hon. the Minister not tell us that at this magnificent function, when he was installed as chancellor and when the hon. the Prime Minister opened the university, not a single student of that university could attend as a right?

That is not correct.

They had to apply for invitations.

That is not correct.

Does the hon. the Minister want to say that they could walk in through the door and sit down?

You must get your facts straight. [Interjections.]

They had to obtain permission to be there. Why? Because just like the University of Zululand, so is the University of the Indians in Natal the very centre of the Nationalist Party in that area. Of course, the worst of the lot is the registrar, Mr. Heystek, as anybody who has the slightest acquaintance with party politics in Natal will tell you. The trouble is that the academic staff and the Senate, which is appointed from universities outside of the University of Durban-Westville, and the governing authority until now, have been hand-picked. The hon. the Minister has said that he has never asked the principal of the university whether he is a member of the Broederbond. I suppose he was afraid of the answer, because these things are widely known throughout the province. Half of the animosity which surrounds that university …

I thought you had rejected the Sunday Times.

… and which has developed in the sphere of that university is that the teaching staff to a large extent and the governing council have been drawn from people who have a known history of antipathy towards the Indian people. That is why. The Indians are a sensible people and they are aware of this and consequently there has developed this immense annoyance with what has been going on at that university. Of course, the crowning glory and indeed one of the major psychological mistakes of the era, with great respect, was the appointment of a Nationalist Cabinet Minister as chancellor of the Indian University. Can one imagine, for example appointing a person with known anti-Semitic views or associated with a party … [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, the remarks made by the hon. member for Zululand were rather venomous and to a large extent his venom was aimed at the person of the Minister. The hon. member again brought up the question of the Indian market which burnt down and tried to excuse the city council for their negative attitude. At the start of his speech the hon. member for Port Natal said that he took it amiss of the Durban City Council …

It is not the United Party City Council …

The hon. member said that he took it amiss of the Durban City Council for not having taken steps in this regard. The two hon. members therefore differ about this matter.

In the discussion of this Vote in recent years the Opposition has regularly criticized primary and secondary education. Accommodation, “shift” classes, standards in education and poor examination results and achievements were the issues raised. So far in this debate, we have heard very little about those things. I think that that constitutes a tacit admission on the part of the Opposition that good progress has been made in the field of education, particularly on the primary and secondary levels. On all levels in education the progress made was simply phenomenal after the taking over of Indian education by the Department of Indian Affairs on 1st April, 1966, in Natal, and on 1st April, 1967, in the Transvaal. One calls to mind the opposition we had in this House on the part of the Opposition and the predictions which were made at that time. One recalls unwillingly the prophets of doom who said that the standards would drop, that the examination results would be poor, and so on. But none of those predictions came true. On the contrary, the growth of education and the tremendous increase in numbers in all sections and the improvement as far as accommodation and other facilities are concerned, speak volumes. In addition, the overall standard of work and examination achievements has improved. In some cases the previous achievements and the previous standards have at least been maintained. All this is clear from the illuminating report of the Department of Indian Affairs.

I should like to express my thanks and appreciation for this illuminating and comprehensive report which reflects the achievements of the department in all its aspects. I want to express thanks and appreciation to the Secretary and his entire staff because they set about their task with great dedication and responsibility. I should like to congratulate them on this report. I want to express my sincere congratulations to the section of the Department of Education in particular.

This evening the hon. the Minister also referred to education and the extent to which progress has been made in this regard. Last year I pointed out to hon. members that 99% of Indian children between six and 13 years of age had attended or were still attending school. All of them enjoy the benefits of general education. There has been agitation or appeals for compulsory education from various quarters. This evening we heard from the Minister that compulsory education will come into operation now in any event. The Indian Council is grateful for this step taken by the Government and a member of the executive council of the South African Indian Council, Dr. M. D. Dadoo, said inter alia, that they are aware of the difficulties involved in making education compulsory. The first stage starts in class one in the junior primary school and in future it will be moved forward annually step by step. This means that school attendance will be compulsory for every Indian child in the country until he or she attains the age of 15 years.

In 1972, 175 742 Indian children were already attending school. Measured against the 1970 census, the school-going Indian youth represents 28,8% of the Indian population. This does not include the enrolment at the M. L. Sultan Technical College. This is really a tremendous achievement. One would like to express sincere gratitude and appreciation towards the department entrusted with Indian education.

Lastly I want to make a few remarks in regard to the application of differentiated education in the Indian high schools. It is striking how the Indian Education division, under the leadership of a dynamic director who has at his disposal an enthusiastic and energetic team of high officials, reacts like a barometer to modern education methods and to new scientifically-grounded systems in education. I want to refer to the approach of the Indian Education division to and the introduction of the new system of differentiated education which will form the basis of all education in all schools in South Africa, White as well as non-White. On the 22nd, the 24th May, 1972, the Indian Education division organized a training course at the University of Durban-Westville, for principals, deputy principals and vice principals of all high schools falling under the division. Here they were informed about the whole system of differentiated education and how it would be introduced in the high schools. The information was extremely valuable and in Fiat Lux, the monthly publication of June, 1972, this conference was referred to inter alia as follows—

So the heads of that division proceeded with their task and invited, inter alia, Professor Thom, who is a very well known educationist, to address the South African Indian Teachers’ Association. Professor Thom also explained the matter there and inter alia added this remark—

The role played by the parents in regard to education, which the Indian parent will also have to play in regard to his child’s choice of direction, was emphasized. Subsequently, in two editions of Fiat Lux, much prominence was given to the whole system of Indian education so that teachers and everyone who read it could see what the direction was in regard to differentiated education. The South African Indian Council was also fully informed and they too gave their blessing in this regard. In Fiat Lux of November 1972 the following was reported—

I stress this point, because it has also been mentioned in other quarters, by other bodies and people who are perhaps not so qualified to pass judgment on education as such, that this system of differentiated education was another system of indoctrination. After they had been informed, however, the Indian Council gave their blessing to this sytem. In 1975, matriculants will have to write their examinations in accordance with this system. The department has already made such progress that they have already approved 166 different courses in high schools for Std. 8. It depends on the school whether it is capable of offering various courses because the importance of differentiated education is that there are so many possible courses offered under the same roof, so that pupils may study in various directions. The department is already fully under way. Of the departments dealing with non-White education, this department is at present the only one which falls in with the system of differentiated education. I think that we can congratulate this department on the undertaking which it has tackled at this early stage. At present there are only two other departments which are at this moment applying differentiated education, namely the Transvaal Education Department and the Natal Education Department. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I would like to associate myself with the hon. member for Koedoespoort in his complimentary remarks regarding the production of the report. I believe that the staff has done a very good job. It is a clear, comprehensive report. One of its great advantages is that it has been issued timeously so that it gives us a chance to study the report before the Vote is discussed. I think that this is an example which could well be followed by other departments. It would be churlish of me if I were not to join in the general felicitations which have been showered upon the hon. the Minister this evening. Until the hon. member for Rissik spoke—I am sorry that he is not here to share this unique experience with me—I felt that I enjoyed a unique situation in this House because the hon. member for Rissik and I have shared in representing the hon. the Minister as his member of Parliament. I have here the voters’ roll of the Berea constituency. Due to the laxity of the Department of the Interior we only received ours towards the end of January but it is the roll which closed on the 31st October, 1972. I see here the entry: “Horwood, Owen Pieter Faure: 113 Chartwell, 37 Ridge Road, Durban; Cabinet Minister.” It would seem that I have had to relinquish the distinction of having a Cabinet Minister in my constituency. One thing I do believe, and I believe it sincerely, is that in the three elections I have fought in Berea, the hon. the Minister has voted for me because I would say he is far too perceptive and too astute to have voted for a Progressive. [Interjections.]

Did he vote Progressive?

He did not use his vote.

I leave the matter there. I want to refer to the University of Durban-Westville. A great deal has been said about the University of Durban-Westville and the important part it plays in the life of the community of the Indian people of South Africa. It represents, as far as I can work out, 0,3% of the Indian population in the Republic, having an enrolment of approximately 2 000 members.

I want to deal with certain matters which affect the other 99,7% of the Indian population, matters which arise in the report of the hon. the Minister’s department and matters which I believe require not only the attention, which I know they will get, but also the opinion of the hon. the Minister. First of all I want to refer the hon. the Minister to page 47 of the report where it deals with the applications for naturalization. The report briefly states that there were 159 applications of which 153 were forwarded to the Department of the Interior. It subsequently advises that 131 of these applications for naturalization of stateless Indians were approved and 26 were refused. The hon. the Minister will remember, I am sure, that in November last year, I raised two cases with regard to the application for naturalization of stateless Indians. We had a discussion in his office in Pretoria. It is not my intention to mention names across the floor of the House, but I am sure the hon. the Minister will recollect the two cases in question. My question to the hon. the Minister is: Can he tell me what is the apparent cause of the delay in the decision regarding these applications for naturalization? Is it a delay caused by the Department of the Interior, or can the delay be attributed to his own department? Some of these applications have been pending for a long time, and I feel that the suspense and frustration which accompany the delay should be eliminated as soon as possible.

On page 50 of the report we read that a departmental survey on drugs and alcoholism has taken place. I am quoting very briefly. As far as alcoholism is concerned, the comment was that “it is no mean measure, especially among the male Indians”. Then we read that dagga is the most commonly used of the drugs. We read further that peddling of drugs is claiming victims among the Indian populations. This problem is not confined to any particular racial group. We know that. I looked through the Estimates of the Revenue and Loan Accounts, and I have not been able to arrive at any specific indication as to what his department intends doing with regard to the rehabilitation of these people, to give them as much assistance as possible, and to plan ahead to see that there will be adequate rehabilitation facilities to meet this growing problem. I hope the hon. the Minister will be able to give me some information in that respect.

Then I want to come to the question of telephones. I want to refer to page 44 of the report, which deals with telephone services. The report reads:

I want to quote a few figures to the hon. the Minister, because the picture is a very depressing one. The figures, which I received today—official figures—represent the position for the last 5½ years. What do we find? We find that out of a total number of applications of 1 386 there have been only 295 installations. This means that 14% of applicants eventually received telephones. But what is particularly disturbing, I think —the number which I have quoted, includes private and business applications—is the fact that of the 252 business applications during the 5½ years, there have been a mere 110 installations, which represents 43% of the total number of applications. The hon. the Minister spoke with a certain degree of pride about the acumen and the ability of the Indian traders in their business endeavour; but I want to ask him if he could give us an easy way to advise the other 57% of the Indians in business who cannot obtain telephones how to operate a business successfully without a telephone. Not only is the position critical, as is stated in the report, but it is deteriorating. We find that in 1972, the latest full year, there were 266 applications and 21 installations of telephones—a mere 8%. Of the 35 business telephone applications, there have been 12 installations. Sir. I realize that this matter does not fall completely within the ambit of the Minister’s activities, but I believe that he has a very important part to play in establishing a priority for a need which is obvious to anybody who examines the position.

Then, Sir, in the short time which is still at my disposal, I wish to raise certain other matters and to ask the hon. the Minister what his attitude would be in regard to certain of the day-to-day matters which seem to be worrying the Indian community. We on this side of the House have our means of consultation, and we have discussed the affairs of the Indians with all strata, from the semi-skilled and skilled to the highly qualified professional people, and what do we find? As far as the semi-skilled and the skilled workers are concerned—and let us admit that they constitute by far the great majority of the Indian population—many of them, I believe, do not appear at this stage to be politically militant, but they have two fundamental grouses. The first one is the question of housing. They want houses. The hon. the Minister has referred to the development of Chatsworth, but I want to tell him that there are many residents at Chatsworth who are totally dissatisfied with the type of housing which is being provided for the Indian people because in many instances it cuts right across their way of life. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman … [Interjection.] The hon. member for Port Natal, who is making so much noise about the fact that I am going to speak again, belongs to a party which cannot even run a parks board, and then they claim to be the alternative Government in this country!

Then, Sir, I want to say a few words with reference to certain remarks made by the hon. member for Berea. I think the hon. member for Berea has a superb sense of humour …

Thank you.

… but as far as his reference to a Cabinet Minister in his constituency is concerned, perhaps it is a matter of wishful thinking. On the other hand, I certainly hope that it is not jealousy. Sir, for an hon. member, in an important debate such as this debate on Indian Affairs, to come here and to talk about telephones is really ridiculous. Why did he not speak about this under the Vote of the Minister of Posts and Telegraphs? I think that is where the question of telephones should have been discussed.

*Sir, this evening we have heard strange things from that side of the House in this debate. The United Party has been yowling and kicking up a fuss here this evening. But we know, Sir, that if one treads on a cat’s tail, it yowls.

That is why you are shouting.

I want to come back to another matter which was raised in this debate earlier this evening, and I want to issue a challenge to the hon. members for Durban Central and Zululand straight away, and I may as well include the hon. member for Port Natal. Sir, I challenge these three members to prove to this Committee that they have done anything in regard to the Indian Market in Durban, that they have made any representations to the Durban City Council or to this Government in this regard. What has been said by these hon. members in this debate this evening, these hon. members who present themselves as champions of the rights and interests of the Indians, had a hollow sound in the light of the evidence laid before this Committee.

Sir, the hon. member for Zululand is very worried about the constitutional future of the Indians in South Africa. We have made it very clear over the years that we foresee a constitutional evolution. The Prime Minister has indicated repeatedly that the method of liaison with the Government will not be prescribed to the Government, but that it will be adapted over the years by way of negotiation. But, Sir, what does that party offer the Indians? They offer what I could only describe as “a glorified debating society on a federal basis”; they suggest that our Indian policy offers the Indian’s absolutely nothing in South Africa.

You are off-side.

Sir, today hon. members opposite have proved here very clearly, by talking about all kinds of things except the real interests of the Indians, that politically they are poor in ideas and policy in regard to this important matter. In the middle of my speech the hon. member for Zululand came along and asked me about job reservation in Newcastle, a matter concerned with the Bantu. He dragged this into debate on Indian affairs. Where have you ever heard anything as ridiculous in your life? The fact remains that the hon. members are terribly obsessed with job reservation in Newcastle, which is a border area in any event, where the Government may issue permits as it deems fit. But they sent Senator Crook there, and having put on an overall, a pair of heavy boots, a crash helmet on his head and a pair of dark glasses as well, he proceeded to walk around there trying to catch the people. Then they went further by trying to give out to the people that they were concerned about job reservation. But they did not tell the voters of Newcastle that they wanted to abolish job reservation. That is the kind of politics practised by that party. But here, with great to-do, they make themselves out to be the great apologists for the Indians. Today that party has been shown up well and truly. But let us please guide this debate, at this late stage, to a higher level. The fact remains that this Government has definitely created new horizons for the Indians in various spheres, and one of the most important aspects is the educational sphere. I have the privilege of having the School of Industries for Indians in Newcastle.

May I ask a question?

I am very sorry. The hon. member poses such ridiculous questions and I have very little time. This institution is a major step forward in the development of Indian education in general. I should like to point out that in a report issued in connection with this school, the following was said—

[Interjections.] Now I want to pay tribute this evening to the fine work done at that fine school in Newcastle under the able guidance of Mr. Louis Bester and his staff, people who are dedicated and who, in the short space of two years, have already performed a really tremendous task. Here we are dealing with people who are socially disturbed, people who have been uprooted from their families, and after this short period, we already find that people have been sent out into society, people who are capable of making a fruitful and major contribution to the productivity of the community. Today I want to point out to you that those who are sent there are people who have had serious problems. I should like to point out that of the 78 pupils enrolled there, 23 were there for theft, 14 for truancy, and for “uncontrollability, 13 pupils; parental neglect, 9 pupils: aggressiveness, 6 pupils; vagrant life, 6 pupils; dagga, gambling and delinquency, 4; alcohol, 4; undesirable company, 2 pupils, and then one pupil each for begging, drugs and criminal tendencies”. [Interjections.]

Order! I do not want to hear those remarks from the hon. member for Port Natal again.

We are dealing here with very difficult material, and that is why I want to pay a special tribute this evening to the outstanding work which is being done there. These people are not only taught a trade or a profession, but a tremendous amount of time is spent on character training, in respect of which a great deal of success is being achieved. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I should like to say something in reply to the point made by the hon. member for Durban Central in regard to the registrar of the University of Durban-Westville. The fact is that the registrar of this university is not a public servant. Consequently the Public Service Act is not applicable to him.

He holds a public office.

Yes, he holds a public office and not an office in the Public Service. There is quite a difference. He was appointed to a public office in terms of the Extension of University Education Act, 1959. The regulations to which the hon. member referred were made in terms of this Act and the conditions of service applicable to this office are those applicable to the holders of public offices. Those regulations do not prohibit participation in party politics. I am sorry that it was deemed necessary to make this personal attack on the registrar of the University of Durban-Westville, who as far as I know is doing excellent work there.

†I am sorry that the hon. member for Zululand is not here at the moment.

He will be here within a few minutes.

In that case I shall continue by referring to the points raised by the hon. member for Berea. I am sorry to have to disappoint the hon. member, but I honestly cannot recall ever having voted for him. [Interjections.] Anyway, we shall leave that at that.

I should like to say that as far as the drug issue is concerned, we are dealing with a very important issue. I am glad the hon. member raised it. At the moment the department’s welfare division, which is a professional welfare division, is handling those cases. However, the establishment of a retreat for alcoholics and for drug addicts was approved a little while ago and we are hoping that this project will be established as soon as possible. We are very anxious to do this.

I quite agree with the hon. member’s remarks about telephones. This is an unfortunate position. We are doing our very best in the department and recently, in particular, we have endeavoured to bring about an improvement. What we have said in the report is perfectly true. We are in touch with the Department of Posts and Telegraphs and we are hoping very much that when it comes to the next occasion, we shall be able to present a much better report in this respect. I take the point made by the hon. member and I agree with what he has said.

The hon. member also mentioned applications for naturalization and certain delays which appeared to occur. It is true that some of these applications do take a little while to be dealt with. We have to refer them to another department and we find that in a number of cases—not all of them—the information given to us is either not correct or is not sufficiently complete to allow the proper investigations to be done and as such applications have to be referred back, a delay is caused. The hon. member did refer two cases to me. He is perfectly correct; those cases did take a little time to go into and I am sorry that he has not yet been informed of the outcome. I shall inform him of the outcome immediately, outside, but I must say that it should have been brought to his attention earlier on. I apologize for any delay which there may have been. However, those cases have been dealt with.

I think I have dealt with most of the main points which the hon. member raised, apart from housing. It is perfectly true that one can find Indians who are dissatisfied with the housing position and some of them who are desperately wanting housing. I know that myself, but I want to say that when you look at the position in regard to the tremendous demand from a rapidly increasing population, not only of the Indians themselves, but of all the sections of the population, and you see what is in fact being provided in the line of housing, and when you take into account that a great part of that is being achieved with public funds, the hon. member will tend to agree with me that a very fine effort is indeed being made. I am very much aware of the problems of the Indians here and I can assure the hon. member that my department and I are giving every attention to this matter, because it is an important matter. I think that those were the main points which were raised by the hon. member for Berea.

I cannot for the life of me understand why the hon. member for Zululand should have been so angry. I surely did not say anything to him that should have caused him to lose his temper, but he certainly was in a rage when he got up. That hon. member, as he said, was in the Other Place and we served together there for a short time. Now we confront each other again in this House. It is a fact that on almost every occasion when the hon. member has spoken where I have been involved, he has seen fit to attack me personally for some reason or other. I think I can say that I have on no occasion ever attacked him personally. He can look it up in Hansard and he will see that that is the case. That is just a matter between us, and I do not see any point in attacking the hon. member personally. I shall rather try to stick to the issues, but if the hon. member wishes to be personal, it is his matter. I am not going to adopt the same kind of tactics, but I do want to say with all respect that the hon. member made an irresponsible speech earlier this evening. I am sorry to have to say that. I was at pains to reply and to state how I saw our policy of separate development for the Indians in the context of our policy for this multinational country as a whole. I think every hon. member who listened to me must agree that I really did deal with that matter. I dealt with it very clearly, although briefly. I explained exactly how this policy aimed at recognizing the separate identities of the several different national groups and did not depend, for its practical implementation, on tying a particular group to a homeland or a concrete geographical area.

What is the constitutional framework?

The hon. member asks me what the constitutional framework is. The constitutional framework as far as Bantu administration is concerned ought to be as clear as crystal. As far as the constitutional framework for the Coloured people is concerned, I happened to listen to the hon. member when he was speaking on this issue. He spoke for a much shorter period on this issue than I did on the issue of the constitutional framework for the Indians. With respect …

You are moving far off the point.

If hon. members read the Hansard of my speech, I would like to know where I repeated myself. I sketched the constitutional development and I showed how the South African Indian Council was evolving until it will eventually be a fully representative legislative body.

And then?

I have answered the hon. member for Turffontein already.

*I said that there were already powers that had been delegated and that it was only a question of a date being announced by the State President before it was applied in practice. What could be clearer than that?

Mr. Chairman, may I ask the hon. the Minister a question?

If there is still time at the end I shall be glad to reply to that, but my time is very limited.

†In any case, I do not want to pursue that. I think I have answered the matter; my Hansard will be available and every fair-minded person will see that. The hon. member for Zululand said that no student was able to come to those ceremonies at the University. That is not correct.

I said “as of right”.

What does “as of right” mean? There was an agitation which I referred to and which I have not exaggerated at all. It was fanned by those newspapers and unfortunately also by certain members of the Indian Congress and also by a few people in the university. The situation could in fact have been a very difficult one. I believe it was magnificently handled by the university and there was no trouble whatsoever. It was a most dignified thing. The dissident student group said they were going to have a huge demonstration. They were going to have a sit-in involving 1 000 students the morning the Prime Minister opened the university officially. I was informed that 50 turned up and that within five minutes they disappeared and the whole thing collapsed. This was the sort of nonsense we were expected to put up with. The hon. member for Zululand insisted that the appointments there were political appointments. He spoke in the most derogatory way of the principal whether he was a member of the Broederbond. What has it got to do with me? What has the Broederbond ever done to this hon. member? Why should the newspapers when an appointment is made absolutely on merit, following all the statutes and regulations of the university and according to well-established Western university practice, which has been followed right through, attack that appointment immediately in this disgraceful manner? Why is it said that this is a “Nat-university” and that it is a Broederbond take-over and that it is discrimination and victimization? I want to tell the hon. member for Zululand tonight that not more than 40% of the staff of that university are Afrikaans-speaking.

I am not concerned …

He is not concerned, but he should be concerned because he made some very serious reflections here tonight on the university. It was a great pity. Forty per cent of the staff at the most are Afrikaans-speaking and amongst these are some of the best Afrikaans-speaking people I have had the pleasure to meet.

But what does that have to do with the appointment?

Then why did the hon. member make an issue of it, which the whole House heard?

I never mentioned it once.

I shall leave the matter at that. I think it is a great pity that the hon. member deemed it necessary to speak in that vein.

That is wholly untrue and you know it.

Order! The hon. member must withdraw that.

I withdraw that, but the hon. the Minister …

Order! The hon. member must withdraw it unconditionally. [Interjections.]

Mr. Chairman, on a point of order, you asked the hon. member for Zululand to withdraw it, but he did not withdraw it unconditionally.

I will withdraw it, but there is a limit to one’s patience.

The hon. the Minister may proceed.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. member for Zululand must not come and vent his spleen here if some things upset him outside. [Interjections.]

Order!

It must be the prospects of his party in Natal that are worrying him. If these things worry him, he must not come and make personal attacks in this House. [Interjections.]

Order!

I have deliberately refrained from making personal attacks. I have dealt with the merits of what hon. members have said. [Interjections.]

Order! If hon. members do not comply with my request for order, I shall take more drastic action. The hon. the Minister may proceed.

In conclusion I would once again like to thank all the members who have contributed to this debate. At times things got a little bit excited and I am not quite sure why.

*I should like to thank my hon. friends on this side of the house very much for their contributions. They were very interesting. I also want to thank the hon. member for Koedoespoort for his very constructive remarks about differentiated education. I believe that the information he gave us was very valuable. I also want to thank my hon. friends from Natal who are sitting behind me for their fine contribution. They made fighting speeches which seemed to have got under the skin of a few members opposite. Finally I should very much like to thank the Secretary for my department, his staff and my Ministry most sincerely for the work they are doing. I have great appreciation for the way in which they are doing this important work and I would certainly not be able to perform my function in this House without their support and their assistance.

You said you are going to relax inter-provincial movement for the Indians, but you have not said anything about it.

Certainly, if the hon. member for Zululand wants me to go further, I will do so. My colleague, the hon. the Minister of the Interior, introduced a Bill to amend the Aliens Control Act and that Bill was passed recently. According to that legislation I have been given certain powers which I will use. We are at this moment framing the policy accordingly. This was done only recently. I would like to remind the hon. member that at the moment, as I have said, any Indian who wishes to travel from one province to another—and they mainly travel from Natal to Transvaal and back—has to have a permit. Last year we had to issue approximately 25 000 permits. You can imagine the administrative work involved. What we have in mind is to allow the Indians, who normally travel this way, to travel just as anybody else does. In other words, we trust them—as we do—to behave responsibly. We will apply this and test it and, if we find that it is abused by certain people, we will know how to deal with them. In practice, therefore, there is going to be a very substantial relaxation. I can assure the hon. member of that.

I would like to conclude. At one stage during the debate we were talking about students, universities, etc. and we became a little serious. You know, Sir, I live in Rondebosch and in the morning as my driver enters the road, he has to make his way into a stream of traffic.

Yes, I know the place.

My hon. colleague in front of me knows of it. You have to wait until someone stops and leaves a gap for you to get in. The other morning, as I was waiting with my driver, there were three students— there is a residence nearby and the students walk along a raised bank—standing just slightly above the car alongside. I could not hear what they were saying.

Were they Indians? What does that have to do with the Vote?

Order! the hon. member can leave that to me.

They were discussing things among themselves. When they were gone, eventually, and we had entered the road, my driver said to me: “Did you hear what they said?” I said: “No, what did they say?” He said: “Well, the first one said to the other two ‘that must be a Cabinet Minister in that car.’ ”

A big black car.

Yes, it was a black car. Apparently one of the others looked hard at me inside the car and said: “Yes, that’s B. J. Vorster.”

Shame! You are bragging now.

Don’t get excited, man, I am telling you a joke. What is there to get excited about? What are you talking about? If you do not like it, leave. [Interjections.]

Order!

The students looked hard and one of them said: “That is not B. J. Vorster.” The third one asked: “Who is it then?” They looked again and one said: “It would not be that damned fool, Horwood, would it?”

Vote agreed to.

Revenue Vote No. 46.—“Tourism”:

Mr. Chairman, may I have the privilege of the half hour? Mr. Chairman, in the few minutes I have at my disposal I should like to take the opportunity of welcoming the hon. the Minister to his new post as Minister of Tourism. I wish him a fruitful term of office. I trust that he will bring new vitality to this particular portfolio. We hope to goodness that he will do better than his predecessor. In the few minutes at my disposal I think it would be a good thing if I dealt with the Vote Tourism very briefly. There is a slight and almost insignificant increase in the Vote. It has now risen to the colossal amount of R2½ million in total. There is an increase of R357 000 as far as Satour is concerned, for which we are grateful. Then there are no fewer than five instances where we have decreases. I do not want to question at this stage the reasons for these decreases. I should like the hon. the Minister to pay attention to what I am saying. On salaries, wages and allowances there is a decrease of R31 000. I was wondering how under the existing circumstances with an increased Budget there could have been a decrease in respect of salaries, wages and allowances. In the particular circumstances that is all I have to say in regard to the budget. I have already said that we are grateful that an additional amount is set aside for Satour.

The hon. the Minister during his term of office as head of tourism made a couple of statements. He inter alia made a statement with regard to his visit to Mauritius in connection with Sartoc. The information the hon. the Minister gave was very meagre and I am sure he would like to give us some more information about the establishment of Sartoc as such. There are some questions I should like to put to the hon. the Minister in connection with the rationalization of travel and publicity between the five countries taking part in Sartoc. I should like to ask the hon. the Minister whether there is a prospect of group tours from participating countries, particularly from Malawi, Mozambique and other Portuguese territories and Swaziland. Will these group tours visit these countries or is it the main object to get group tours from abroad to visit these particular countries? Obviously the object is group tourism. My first question dealt with tourism, and group tours between the five countries that are participants in Sartoc. Will the hon. the Minister indicate how he sees the position and whether it would be a feasible idea? As far as group tours from abroad are concerned, in joint promotion the emphasis must surely be on group tours as such. If this is the case will we not suffer in joint enterprise or would group tours as they come be welcome regardless of composition or colour? This is one of the items that is worrying us. I presume that we are playing our part by making a similar sort of contribution that the others are making. I see that a greater amount was voted in the previous year. It has been reduced to R66 000 this year. I presume that the others were not in a position to make up their share of the bigger contribution.

Business interrupted in accordance with Standing Order No. 23.

House Resumed:

Progress reported and leave granted to sit again.