Mr. Chairman, when the debate was adjourned on Wednesday, I was on the point of concluding my remarks on Sartoc. I was busy putting a question to the hon. the Minister, which I should like to repeat at this stage in case, in the hurry of the moment, he did not hear it. In spite of our great enterprise as far as Sartoc is concerned, does he not think that we shall suffer by virtue of the fact that the other four partners in Sartoc allow groups of tourists to enter their countries irrespective of composition or colour, whereas we are possibly not following the same sort of policy? I should like to hear the hon. the Minister give us a policy statement in this connection; I should like him to tell us what the position is.

To continue from that point onwards, I should like to deal with Satour. In this connection I should like to say that we have nothing but praise for the activities of Satour. They are working on a shoestring budget. I should like to thank the Minister for making it possible for us to see some films this morning which were prepared for Satour. I have a feeling that he laid this on specially, and that he delayed the discussion of this Vote until such time as we could see those films. In this regard I should like to make particular mention of the two films that were prepared for Satour, namely “The Peace Game” and “On the Third Day”. As one who has had to have many films prepared for the wool industry all over the globe, I can only say that these films are of outstanding quality. They have been exceedingly well prepared, with beautiful subject matter. I want to say that they compare very favourably with any films that can be produced anywhere in the world. But they are better by virtue of the fact that we have subject matter that no other country in the world has. By virtue of that fact, obviously, films were exceedingly well prepared. I would venture to say that Mr. John da Silva, who produced, directed and photographed some of these films, deserves very high praise indeed.

As far as the publications of Satour are concerned, I want to say that I have a number of these publications in my possession, and some of them are well worth mentioning. They are printed with an attractive glossy finish and are extremely well presented. I refer particularly to the publication entitled “Discover South Africa”, which is outstanding. Other publications I should like to mention include “Travel Impressions of South Africa” and the “Travel Companion”, which contains packaged information. I have seen no better anywhere. These publications are of outstanding quality.

I now wish to refer to advertising by Satour, and to the information I could glean from the department’s report in this connection. I may say that I am sorry that we do riot have a newer report; the latest report deals with the period ending 31st March, 1972, which is almost 15 months ago. We would certainly have liked to have a fresher report. Be that as it may, I want to say that the advertising being done by Satour abroad is well staggered and extremely comprehensive. Again I may say that they are doing this on a very small budget. Their activities are as wide as can be expected, bearing this small budget in mind.

I now come to the Department of Tourism as such. Having praised Satour to such an extent, I am afraid to say that I have gained the impression that the hon. the Minister and his department consider that Satour is an agency to carry all their activities and that that is the be-all and the end-all of the matter.

*Mr. Chairman, it is in this regard that I want to put a few questions to the Minister. I hope he will be able to furnish us with the necessary replies to them. I want to repeat that quite apart from the activities of Satour, not a great deal of work has been done by the Department of Tourism. In this regard I should like to refer briefly to the annual report of the department, where the following is said—

Sir, I want to say that it is essential for research to be undertaken on an ever wider basis, and I want to suggest that a standing research committee be called into being, a committee comprising members of the advisory committee, of travel agencies, of the hotel industry and other interested bodies, to develop methods to give the tourist industry the necessary forward impetus. When talking about a forward impetus, I want to point out that we are aware of the fact that we are a long way from where we hope to get in regard to tourism. We are certainly not there yet. We are still in the red, as far as tourism is concerned, because South African tourists abroad spend more money than tourists spend in this country. I have already said that I do not expect the Minister to have rectified all these deficiences in the short period he has been in charge of this department, but I do hope that he will be able to do this in the foreseeable future. There are obviously deficiencies in the department which must be rectified. I should like to ask the hon. the Minister to what extent he has implemented the recommendations of the Prime Minister’s Economic Advisory Council, and when he intends implementing the remaining parts of these recommendations. I quote the following from these recommendations by the Prime Minister’s Economic Advisory Council (translation)—

Sir, this advisory committee has been established, and I should be grateful if the hon. the Minister could tell us what number of these many recommendations, from No. 13 to No. 52, have been accepted and when he intends implementing them. I should like to quote a few of the recommendations in regard to local tourism (translation)—

1. (6) That the Department of Tourism approach the national industrial organizations in an attempt to obtain their support for the idea of an improved distribution of the functions of the industry in that some industries close for the three weeks before Christmas and others for the three weeks after Christmas.

Sir, this is a very important factor for tourism in this country. The next recommendation reads (translation)—

Sir, we know what problems we have in many centres as far as accommodation is concerned, and it is to that end that I should like to have this information from the hon. the Minister. Then paragraph 29 reads (translation)—

Then paragraph 30 (translation)—

A further recommendation reads (translation)—

Sir, I do not want to quote any further from this, because it will take up too much of my valuable time. I have put sufficient questions to the Minister about that aspect. We just want to say that we are pleased to see that the Cape Technical College offers diploma courses for tourist guides. Those of us who have often toured abroad and know the tourist guides there, know that they have taken diploma courses and that, as a result of the experience they have had through the years, they are capable of making a tour extremely interesting for the tourist from beginning to end. This is something we miss in this country as far as tourist guides are concerned, because they only tell the tourists those specific things they were told to talk about, and apparently they do not have the general knowledge required to make the tour interesting for tourists. We also notice that the South African Airways have an air hotel plan—

Then they state the following—

Sir, this is a tremendous concession. We all know that it is expensive to travel by air. From here to the Witwatersrand and back, for example, it costs no less than R94.

Sir, I just want to address one final request to the hon. the Minister, i.e. that this dual control over hotels be abolished. I think the time has arrived for the Hotel Board to take over control of hotels, while the Licensing Board should exercise control over liquor so that we may have uniform control over hotels.

Sir, my time has almost expired. I hope the hon. the Minister will be able, during the next session, to surprise us by being in a position not only to announce some fruitful activities on the part of Satour, but also to tell us that his own department has made far more progress and that a substantially larger amount will be voted for this department.

Sir, I think we are slightly surprised at the fact that the hon. member who has just spoken furnished so little criticism with respect to this department. Last year, and on previous occasions, there was an abundance of criticism, but I do not think that criticism was actually based on fact; it was based on the person who occupied the position, i.e. the hon. Frank Waring. Hon. members opposite simply wanted to hit out at him for all they were worth because they did not like the idea of his sitting on this side of the House.

Two or three years ago the hon. member for East London City said that if things continued in this fashion in politics, he would be Minister within ten years. Sir, today is the 25th birthday of this Cabinet, and the hon. member’s hopes of becoming Minister are becoming increasingly threadbare. At the same time I want to take this opportunity of congratulating the hon. Owen Horwood on his appointment to this office. I want to express the hope that in the discussion of the Votes which the hon. the Minister is handling, hon. members on the other side of the House will get down to realities to a greater extent and be less personal than in the past. Last Wednesday, with the discussion of the Indian Affairs Vote, there were again such signs, and I want to express the hope that this will stay out of the discussion of the Tourism Vote.

Sir, I do want to refer, in that connection, to a matter which was discussed last Wednesday under Indian Affairs, i.e. the disaster which struck the Durban Indian market. It was amazing for one to have had to listen to how spineless the Durban City Council was in connection with the reconstruction of that market, because apart from the fact that a few thousand people make their living out of that market, I think it is one of the biggest tourist attractions in South Africa. I think the hon. member for Durban Point will agree with me that the Indian market in Durban has grown into one of the biggest tourist attractions in that part of the country. That is why I want to thank the hon. the Minister for what he has managed to do, for the assistance, which he announced in the debate on his Indian Affairs Vote, which will be forthcoming from the Government to restore that Indian market. I want to express the hope that everybody, who is interested in tourism, will assist in restoring this big tourist attraction again.

Should it be reestablished permanently?

Sir, if one looks at the annual report of the Department of Tourism one is struck, in the first place, by the steady growth in tourism from abroad to this country. All of us believe that this country has tourist attractions matched by very few other countries in the world. But we are situated at a great distance from the majority of countries from which tourists come. Until a number of years ago the greatest number of our foreign tourists came from neighbouring states in Africa, from Rhodesia. Mozambique and earlier from Kenya, the Congo and other areas. But if one now looks at the annual report and sees how that graph is changing, and particularly if one looks at the latest figures that have not yet been presented in this annual report, one sees, on the one hand, the impact of the expansion of our own S.A. Airways and of other airways which bring tourists in great numbers from the rich countries of the world, but recently also from Darts of the New World from which tourists did not come in large numbers previously, because links were not so quick and so direct. It strikes one how great the increase in tourists from the U.S.A. is, from Europe —particularly Western Germany—and also from Australasia, from Australia and New Zealand. One can imagine that with the expansion of the S.A. Airways to the Far East, and also with a direct link to Argentina, we can also expect a considerable extension in tourist traffic from those countries in the next few years. This is all to the good, because not only do tourists come and spend money here; they also come to observe, and 99% of them go back as silent ambassadors of South Africa. After they have observed here what natural scenery we have and how we are trying to develop and govern this country, they leave with the impression of this country’s potential and the tremendous future that awaits us. For that reason I am saying that this development, this increase in the number of tourists from the New World and from Europe, as against those who came only from our neighbouring states in Africa earlier on, is something to be welcomed, and we can indeed regard ourselves as a privileged country, because although we are situated at a great distance from those countries, and although it costs a great deal for tourists to travel here, it is nevertheless a fact that the sojourn of tourists who come here from so far off, and perhaps also visit one or two of our neighbouring states, is considerably longer than the visits to some of the European countries whose tourists position is frequently presented to us as being so much more favourable and better than our own here. If a tourist stays here for 14 days or three weeks, he inevitably spends much more money than he would have spent in a day or two in a country on the Mediterranean. He takes in much more here, and carries away with him many more impressions, because what he observes here, is something real; it is not something that has been created here just to draw tourists It is still South Africa in its true sense. I have calculated that in the past year in 1972, the growth was about 14 to 15%, 74 000 more tourists visited our country than in the previous year, many more than previously coming from the richer countries of the world. But then we must also keep pace with our facilities for tourists, our transport, our hotel accommodation, and the other facilities that tourists want. Because it is a fact that a tourist who is not satisfied, who has complaints after a visit, will not only not return, but he will also dissuade others from coming, and what is more, he will leave here with a poor impression of our country. For that reason all the bodies concerned must cooperate and that is why I want to advocate today a collective attitude for the promotion of tourism here in South Africa. We must indeed become tourism conscious.

With the evolvement of the industry and with the advent of more tourists, all of us in this country, whether we are directly connected with the tourist industry or not, must become tourism conscious. The tourist does not only come into contact with those who look after him, for example those who supply him with hotel accommodation or transport; he also comes into contact with the general public and there he could also gain a poor impression. That is why I am advocating that our local population be made aware of the value of tourists. Although the pilot of an aircraft, whether on local flights or flights abroad, the bus driver transporting tourists and many other people, do not come into direct contact with tourists, they can do a tremendous amount to keep tourists informed, to make them feel at home and to have them like this country. When, on occasion, we have come across members of the general public who are not directly connected with the tourist industry, but who furnish an exceptional contribution towards making tourists feel welcome, have we ever thought of giving them the credit they deserve? I want to mention an example. Some time ago I was on an aircraft en route from Johannesburg to Cape Town. It was a connecting flight for a flight that had just come from abroad … [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I want to say first of all that I agree with what the hon. member for Stellenbosch has said in regard to the desirability of South Africans becoming more tourism conscious. I think at the same time that what we need in this country is that the Government also should place a higher priority than they have done during the past few years on the development of tourism and I shall have something more to say on that in a moment or two.

Then, I want to add my good wishes to the hon. the Minister on his appointment as Minister to direct this important Department of Tourism. I should like to leave the hon. the Minister in no doubt whatsoever that we on this side of the House regard tourism as an industry with a tremendous future in South Africa. The Reynders Commission’s report on exports contains estimates of foreign exchange earnings for which the tourist industry ought to be responsible in future years. The estimates are as follows: R200 million in 1980 and R800 million by the turn of the century. Already the tourist industry is an important invisible exporter and although the figures for 1972 are not yet available, I would estimate that last year the tourist industry could have been responsible for bringing in something like R90 million by way of foreign exchange earnings, in comparison with the total export earnings of the whole country of R2 000 million. It is therefore a considerable earner of foreign exchange. It does not yet rank with the big league of exporters such as the gold industry or diamond industry, but it does rank in the next stratum of importance of export industries, such as copper, wool, sugar and metal ores. Although it is not yet in the big league, the potential is undoubtedly there, and we on this side of the House agree with the emphasis which the Reynders Commission placed on the importance of developing the potential of this industry. However, if the potential is to be developed, it is going to require a major effort by the industry itself and by the Government. It is also going to require co-operation between the Government and the private sectors of the industry, co-operation of a calibre and quality that have been absent for the last few years. As far as the effort by the industry itself is concerned, I should like to mention to the hon. the Minister that there are private sectors in the industry that would be greatly encouraged to put greater effort into attracting tourists to this country if they were to benefit by the export allowance which the hon. the Minister of Finance announced in his Budget speech. He announced that service industries selected by himself and by the hon. the Minister of Economic Affairs, would benefit from the export allowance, and I appeal to the hon. the Minister to use his influence in order to see that private sectors in the tourism industry, those sectors who are responsible for spending money abroad to attract tourists to this country, should be included in the industries qualifying for this allowance.

As far as the Government itself is concerned, I hope that under this new Minister we will see a higher priority and a greater sense of urgency given to the development of the tourism industry. I should like to see a sense of urgency such as has been applied to the Saldanha-Sishen scheme, such as has been applied in the enrichment of uranium and such as has been applied to the development of our armed forces being applied also to the development of such an important industry as the tourism industry.

From my own contacts, I am pleased to say that I have had encouraging reports that the hon. the Minister is tackling this important port-folio with a measure of realism. We on this side of the House will watch his progress, and will give credit where credit is due, but we will also criticize where we think criticism is justified.

I believe that there is a great deel of leeway to be made up as regards co-operation between the Government and the private sectors in the industry. The Riekert Committee which was appointed by the hon. the Prime Minister’s Economic Advisory Council, and which reported two years ago, has given us clear guide-lines as to how this co-operation between the Government and industry could be established. Its first proposal was that national tourism congresses should be organized as a channel whereby the Government can obtain the advantage of the opinions of the relative private interests concerned with tourism. Those congresses, the committee recommended, should be held yearly at first, and later on be two-yearly. I consider that there has been a very considerable vacuum in the direction and co-ordination of the tourist industry since the department was established more than 10 years ago, for the reason that no congresses which provided platforms for discussion and the exchange of ideas between the various sectors of the industry, have been held. The last one was held by the South African Publicity Association under the auspices of the South African Railways more than 10 years ago, or before this department was established. The hon. the Minister’s predecessor is on record as saying that such congresses are a waste of time. I hope that that is a view which is not shared by this hon. Minister. I certainly agree with the Riekert Committee’s recommendation in this respect, and not with that of the hon. the Minister’s predecessor.

The second recommendation which was made by the Riekert Committee was that the board of Satour should be broadened to become an advisory committee on tourism. The Riekert Committee clearly had in mind that this advisory committee should be a statutory body because they suggested that the basis of it should be the board of Satour, which is a statutory body, and that it should be representative of the Government departments and the various sectors in the private industry. What has happened is that a committee has been appointed, a committee that has no statutory standing, consisting of persons—some of whom I agree are very able and very well qualified —who are chosen by the Minister and not by the private sector and are acting in their personal capacities and not as representatives of the industry. We in Parliament have had no report from this advisory committee, but we do know that there are important sections of the industry that are not represented on it. I refer, for instance, to the various publicity associations which do a fine job of attracting tourists to South Africa from outside of the country. I feel very strongly that the hon. the Minister would be well advised to follow the Riekert Committee’s recommendations and, first of all, make this committee properly representative of all sections of the industry and of the Government departments concerned with tourism, and secondly, to make it statutory so that we in Parliament, the industry as a whole and the country as a whole would know what is happening with tourism as far as the Government is concerned. I believe that such a committee could play a very important part in the development of tourism in the country. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman, I should like to say that I appreciate the plea of the hon. member who has just sat down. I also appreciate the more positive course that has been adopted in general by the hon. members opposite. I also want to refer to the hon. member for East London City. Regularly in the past he has apologized for his critical attitude when dealing with this Vote, but now he has apparently turned over a completely new leaf. However, I cannot neglect to refer very briefly to a remark by the hon. member for Durban Central which is in glaring contrast to what we heard this afternoon from the other two hon. members. The hon. member made the remark when we began dealing with this hon. Minister’s Vote. I think that his remark was disparaging and uncalled for. There was no cause to have disparaged the hon. the Minister like that. I should like to express the hope …

This is another Vote.

You keep quiet now, Uncle Jan; it is not your turn now. I am convinced that this is not the norm or criterion by which to judge the good taste of the voters of Durban Central; I therefore think that the hon. member also owes his constituency an apology.

Order! The hon. member must now come back to the Vote.

Mr. Chairman, in respect of the Vote itself I want to say that I should like to issue a warning—let us call it that—to the Minister and that is that we must be careful and not take over-hasty action in respect of the development of this industry. We must bear in mind that facilities to promote tourism are extremely essential. We must develop the industry and provide for its needs as it develops. We must see tourism in perspective. In South Africa, in particular, we must see it against the background of the particular circumstances and facilities for tourism which our country offers. Tourism is a very sensitive industry, particularly in respect of economic conditions and State security. That is why it is gratifying for us to be able to say that the progress that has been made in tourism is a reflection of the confidence which the foreign tourist has in South Africa’s economy and in the security within South Africa. There are, in fact, countries where it is no longer safe to go touring today. I have in mind, for example, the large-scale hijacking of aircraft etc., but as far as that is concerned, we in South Africa are fortunate. We must see tourism in South Africa against the background of our own conditions. In doing so, I think it is necessary for one to take into account, firstly, the fact that the tourist attractions which draw tourists to a country, and particularly to our own country, can be grouped into various classes. There are those things in nature that draw tourists. To use the words of the poet we have “somer, en son en saffier”. Then there are our mountains, our forests and so many other things. There are also those things that have been created by human ingenuity, for example buildings and other constructions that are interesting and informative, and which are visited by people. These things are of the utmost importance, but we must always remember that we must create the opportunity for the tourist to be able to see those things, but that we cannot create these things for the sake of tourism. I therefore want to repeat what I said at the beginning, i.e. that we must not progress too slowly when it comes to tourism, but that we should keep in step with development and ensure that the necessary facilities are there to promote tourism.

There are certain factors that perhaps keep tourists away from our country. We must not forget that South Africa is a vast country when we compare it with other countries, particularly on the Continent. We consequently understand what a tremendous difference there is. Because our country is so vast and because its tourist attractions are spread over so large an area, one must probably concede that this is a stumbling block as far as many tourists are concerned. The more travelling that has to be done to see those things that one would like to see, the greater are the costs involved. We must not forget either, that there are many foreigners who are hostile to us, and that can also be a reason why they do not want to come here. However, in spite of all that, when one views the figures, furnished in the annual report, about how the number of tourists that have visited South Africa have increased in recent years, I do not think we are far wrong in calculating that by the year 1980 about one million tourists will be visiting our country. Seen in this light, we must not lose sight of the importance of this, because this industry is probably the biggest single industry in the world. I feel that we must keep pace with the development of tourism in our country. However, we must not be over-hasty and try to force tourism to ripen in our country like a green fruit that one is in a hurry to eat.

Mr. Chairman, on the basis of what the two hon. gentlemen opposite had to say about tourism, I can say that they have been altogether positive in their approach to this Vote.

It is estimated that in 1972 200 million people moved across the globe as tourists, of course apart from the astronauts who had an eye on the moon. In the process this tremendous number of people spent an estimated $24 000 million to $25 000 million. This excludes transport costs, particularly air transport. Sir, a tremendous amount of money is involved in the flow of tourists, and many countries, of course, are largely or chiefly dependent upon tourism to earn foreign exchange. In South Africa, and particularly on the part of the Opposition— not so much so on this occasion, but only last year—it was urged that tourism should make more rapid strides. The department was accused of the fact that South Africa was not drawing it rightful share of world tourism. The critics who have made such remarks, and hon. members of the Opposition who have flung these accusations at the department in the past, have done so without bringing themselves up to date with matters. The fact is that South Africa is definitely sharing in the tourist prosperity, or shall we call it the “tourist explosion”, and that in the past year a great deal has been done on the tourist front, perhaps more than is generally realized. The number of international tourists, who visited other countries in 1972, increased by 8%, in comparison with the number in the previous year. But in the case of South Africa the number of foreign tourists increased by about 16%. There were 459 478 tourists who came to South Africa in 1971. This in itself represented an increase of 17,9% on the number of tourists in the previous year. In other words, it can be stated, without fear of contradiction, that South Africa’s crop of foreign tourism was exactly double the increase in international tourism as a whole in the oast three of four years. It is a significant fact that in 1960, for example, about 12 years ago, only 17% of the net total of tourists for the relevant year came from outside the territories of Africa. The rest came from the neighbouring states to the north of us In 1971 tourists from abroad already represented 50% of the grand total. At present this percentage is even higher.

It is estimated that last year tourists spent about R150 million here. If the spending of money as such increases to the same extent as the increase in numbers, it could be that foreign tourists will be spending about R400 million in South Africa in 1980.

The development of new aviation services is bringing South Africa closer to other countries; not only closer to Europe, but also closer to the two Americas. Australasia and the East.

Recently, on 14th May, 1973, the annual meeting of the Federated Hotel Association of Southern Africa took place in Kimberley. In his presidential address Mr. A. C. Burke mentioned various problems which the hotel industry is faced with, but which I do not want to elaborate on fully here. He said, inter alia, that if the Government takes positive steps to really draw foreign tourists and make them feel welcome, and does something to make the costs of the visits of South African tourists more realistic, the hotel industry could look forward to a boom in tourism. I think this remark contains a subtle reproach against the Department of Tourism and the Government to the effect that not enough is being done to promote foreign tourism to South Africa. On the basis of the statistics I have just mentioned, I am convinced that the rate of increase in foreign tourism is normal or adequate. It does not help to stimulate tourism artificially. The annual growth of between 16% and 17% is completely adequate. The hon. member for Constantia also referred to this and said that high priority should be given to tourism. However, I want to allege that if one stimulates this artificially, we would not be benefiting tourism all that much either; we would possibly cause a blockage which could be detrimental to us in general.

What are you afraid of?

It is surely logical that if the tourists cannot be absorbed, these people may return home with an erroneous impression of South Africa. It must be possible to absorb the tourists in hotels, as far as transport is concerned, etc.

The efforts of the Department of Tourism, the South African Tourist Corporation and private organizations to draw visitors from abroad, are already bearing significant fruit. The said bodies are constantly seeking and propagating new methods to promote tourism. In this connection I refer to the two informative annual reports submitted by the Department of Tourism and by the Tourist Corporation. Sir, it is necessary to be a jump or two ahead of one’s opponent, because international tourism has become a highly competitive industry and every country wants to draw as many tourists as possible. In this connection I want to refer to the distribution of publications by Satour. Satour also realizes that in order to achieve success in the highly competitive tourist markets, the corporation’s publications must be able to compete with the world’s best. The production division of Satour has indeed succeeded in achieving and maintaining a very high standard. I am thinking, for example, of the fine Satour desk calendars which some of us have obtained. The Tourism Advisory Committee, which was also referred to by a previous speaker, and which was established at the beginning of last year, has already made recommendations, and we believe that those recommendations will also have a positive effect on the promotion of tourism as such.

South Africa is sometimes accused of not having put its house in order in time as far as receiving tourists is concerned, in other words that we are not absorbing the tourists. The Government and the private sector have co-operated to make positive and far-reaching contributions in this connection. Today South Africa can already claim to have a very well-ordered system of tourist facilities.

I want to conclude by again appealing to the Minister and the department to make a special effort towards training tour leaders or tour guides. Pleas have already been made for that on various occasions in this House, and efforts are being made, but thus far those efforts have not been crowned with the necessary success. It was interesting to note, in fact, that at the College for Advanced Technical Education in Johannesburg this year 40 people have enrolled to be trained as tour leaders. That is a fine start as far as that college is concerned. We hope that this will be the forerunner to a very efficient diploma in tourism. I just want to emphasize that the tour guide or the tour leader is the person who can advertise the country to tourists. He is the person who can make their tour very interesting for them.

Sir, the hon. member for De Aar, who spoke earlier this afternoon, unfortunately did not have the time to conclude his attack on me. All I can tell him is that I do not think I have ever said anything in this House for which I have had to apologize to my constituency.

Sir, this afternoon I should like to discuss the necessity of the promotion and expansion of internal tourism with the hon. the Minister. In the first place I want to tell him that it is imperative for him to convince the Cabinet to accept a more liberal policy in regard to this aspect. There are so many Government departments involved in the promotion of tourism in one way or another, that co-operation over a wide area is imperative. Take for example the case of the hotel industry. We concede that the hotel industry is an essential link in the promotion of tourism, but to be able to gear and organize the hotel industry in such a way that it will adapt to a flourishing and effective tourist industry in South Africa, the co-operation of various departments is required. For example one requires the co-operation of the Department of Justice, and to some extent the co-operation of the Police, the Department of Labour as well as the department responsible for the group areas. Anyone of these departments may take decisions or steps which could hinder the hotel industry and throw tourism out of gear, and for that reason I readily concede that the hon. the Minister has a difficult task here. But in other respects his task is much easier, where co-operation between departments is not specifically involved, and here I want to refer specifically to the promotion of internal tourism.

In this instance I think that it would pay the hon. the Minister to know that one of his great stumbling blocks in the expansion of internal tourism, is in fact the Department of Transport and the South African Railways. The two previous speakers on this side of the House, inter alia, referred, as I also want to do, to the recommendations in regard to the rationalization and promotion of the South African tourist industry, as approved by the hon. the Prime Minister’s Economic Advisory Council. As we know, these recommendations were approved as far back as two years ago, approximately, but today, after two years, we find that very little has in fact been done to give effect to these recommendations, particularly the recommendations in regard to the promotion of internal tourism. The recommendations I want to refer to specifically, are those dealing with the expansion of internal tourism.

I want to draw the hon. the Minister’s attention to the following recommendations. The one is: “That the South African Railways, in the expansion of its longdistance passenger services, should in the first instance consistently make due allowance for the requirements of the internal tourist and the middle and lower income group.” Another recommendation I want to refer to, is: “That the National Transport Commission should adopt a more liberal policy than in the past in the allocation of road transport certificates to tourist transporters,” and the third recommendation is: “That more scope for the ingenuity of transporters should be allowed in order to stimulate new tourist traffic.” I am convinced that the hon. the Minister will in fact be able to obtain the co-operation of the hon. the Minister of Transport in this regard. We all know that the hon. the Minister of Transport is the most senior Minister in the Cabinet and at the same time he is also one of the most sensible Ministers in the Cabinet.

The only sensible one.

Someone here says he is the only sensible Minister. The only problem here—and I want to say this to the hon. the Minister—is that there is a feeling that the Department of Tourism is too neutral as regards this matter, particularly when private transporters apply to obtain permits where the matter rests in the hands of the National Transport Commission. Two years ago, when these original recommendations were announced, the then Minister said, inter alia, the following (col. 6528 of Hansard of 1971): “The Government considers the growth of domestic tourism and recreation as an important factor in the healthy social development of its people.” In other words, this is the viewpoint of the Government. To me these are very fine words, but after two years we have yet to see anything in practice which could indicate that internal tourism is really enjoying the priority as was anticpated here. I can tell the hon. the Minister that we and that in South Africa large areas of our country are simply lying fallow in regard to tourism, areas which are crying out for development. These are areas which we shall have to open up to the people if we are in earnest about tourism in South Africa. But one cannot open up an area unless one makes that area accessible.

Where are these areas?

I shall mention specific instances. In this regard I feel that we have to accept that private organizations are doing their best to open up areas for internal tourism, but every time they are brought up against this stumbling block, the National Transport Commission, which stands in the way of safari organizations. It is the task of the National Transport Commission to protect the Railways and the Department of Transport. Applications for permits are fought tooth and nail. The excuses offered, are always that sufficient facilities are available. For example I have here a typical objection. The grounds for the objection are: “That no necessity for the granting of an application exists and that existing facilities are satisfactory and adequate to comply with the transport requirements of groups at a reasonable cost.” Now, the above, for example, was said in regard to an application from a group known as the Kalahari Safari which wanted to open up certain parts of the Kalahari to internal tourists. There are certain misrepresentations here. Misrepresentation number one is that in regard to the question of reasonable costs.

The Department of Tourism and every person in this country ought to know that the transport facilities of the State are always more expensive than those of private entrepreneurs. Misrepresentation number two is that the existing facilities mentioned here do not exist at all. One cannot tour through the Kalahari by train or by railway bus. Now I want to give the hon. the Minister some advice.

I realize that the National Transport Commission will fight such applications tooth and nail because they are protecting their interests, which are the interests of the S.A. Railways and of the Department of Transport. But on the other hand the Department of Tourism, as I have said before, cannot adopt a neutral approach to this problem. In fact they can give more assistance and support to private people. They can assist private individuals by arguing that it is essential that private individuals should do this. Otherwise we shall simply continue to ask that internal tourism in South Africa be romoted, which will never happen. I can tell you that there are tremendous social reasons why we should give attention to the internal tourist. When I talk about the internal tourist I mean that person who perhaps works in the city but who hankers to experience a return to nature and look at natural surroundings for a week or two, so that he may learn to know his own country. It is of no avail the Minister or any other member opposite adopting the attitude that this is not a problem. It really is a problem. [Time expired.]

Mr. Chairman. I leave the hon. member for Durban Central, with his problems of a railway line through the Kalahari, at that. I think the hon. the Minister will probably reply to that in due course.

I believe that the extent to which tourism has already grown, as well as the progress which has taken place in an orderly and responsible manner most definitely deserves to be emphasized by us in this debate. For example I read on page 7 of the Annual Report of the Board of Control of the South African Tourist Corporation that the marketing challenge has been met. We are also told that in 1971 approximately 460 000 visitors came to South Africa. It is expected that in 1972 there will be 500 000. It goes on to state—

It is mentioned that these people are drawn here by the wide range of attractions offered by this country. I am convinced this afternoon that in regard to tourism there is one aspect on which we shall perhaps never be able to place sufficient emphasis. This is that the greatest asset and attraction of a country is that which it has which no other country can equal or offer. In this regard South Africa is a privileged and I believe a richly endowed country, particularly if the emphasis is placed on the scenery of this beautiful country and everything that this signifies. That is why it is imperative for us to retain our own nature and character and that in this field we should not become more liberal as has just been advocated. I believe that we should retain what is ours and that which is peculiar to South Africa should be developed with the object of drawing tourists to this country.

In regard to the conservation and development of our natural heritage I believe that a great deal has already been done. On the other hand, however, I also believe that if this is seen in relation to tourism, one realizes that in this sphere we have not yet awakened fully, or, if I may put it another way, that South Africa has not yet been opened up properly. I believe that there is still too much in this beautiful country which is hidden and undeveloped. That is why there is a tremendous challenge in this field for local initiative and more specifically, rural initiative, because it is the rural areas in particular which are richly endowed with these fine scenic attractions in our country. I believe that these will have to be exploited on a larger scale.

This afternoon I want to refer in all humility to the discovery, towards the end of last year, of the wonder cave in the Cango Caves where two speleologists, under very difficult circumstances, persisted for about six months with electrical hand drills until they had an opening in the rock-face. I was privileged to enter that wonder cave. I believe that this will mean a great deal for the Cango Caves and tourism on the road ahead.

Meeting the challenge could mean recovery and new life for many rural towns. Last year, in his opening speech at the congress of the South Cape Regional Association for the Promotion of Tourism, Mr. Frans Conradie, M.P.C., said, inter alia, according to page 6 of the minutes (translation)—

This afternoon I want to plead for resourcefulness and enthusiasm among our regional associations in the promotion of tourism. I believe that these regional associations for the promotion of tourism could mean a great deal for the rural areas if they were to perform their task under the slogan of: “We want to make the country bloom again”. They can do so by protecting and conserving our natural heritage through a new approach to our natural attractions and through the creation of good roads and other means of communication to make sights which are worth seeing easily accessible to the tourist. I also want to plead frankly this afternoon for a tourist road through the Little Karoo with its wonderful branch roads leading to the coastal area and to the North. I believe, too, that in many areas the tourist attractions should be better sign-posted. In the speech mentioned above Mr. Conradie said (translation)—

I believe that our regional associations for tourism can step in here and do an important job. I also want to plead this afternoon for closer liaison between the regional associations. I am convinced that there can and should be liaison on a provincial basis, and I want to ask the hon. the Minister whether this could not take place under a provincial advisory council, a provincial advisory council which could co-ordinate all these activities of the various regional associations in the Province, which could prevent duplication but which could also bring about a linking up of tourist attractions in this country. I also think one could ask for a national association for the promotion of tourism. A biennial national congress in this connection could possibly be held at which these matters could be discussed. I therefore want to plead this afternoon for local initiative and for a greater degree of resourcefulness and co-ordination in all the bodies involved in tourism. If we have that then I believe that the interests of tourism as a whole could be served.

Mr. Chairman, I find myself in pleasant agreement with the hon. member for Oudtshoorn, more particularly where he pleads for recognition of the natural beauty of the Republic and the exploitation of it in a way which will not spoil it. I hope that he does not regard the advent of the Holiday Inn in Oudtshoorn as being something which will harm the natural beauty of Oudtshoorn or that it has perhaps introduced a liberal atmosphere to Oudtshoorn. Besides the ostriches and the Cango Caves, I think the Holiday Inn is performing a very good service not only for the people of Oudtshoorn who seem to enjoy that amenity as far as I know, but also for the tourists who visit that town.

Then the hon. member made the point that natural development and the exploitation of tourist amenities in the platteland areas can both take place. I am also in agreement with that sentiment. I feel that if he can give some attention within his constituency and within his province to some of the matters that cause the depopulation of the platteland, it will go a long way to assist him in his pleas for the development of the tourist industry, because we will then have a larger local population than we have at the moment, as a basis for it.

Thirdly, I am in agreement with the hon. member, and I think this side of the House has pleaded for this before, where he asked that greater attention should be paid by the Government to the regional organizations which deal with tourism. His suggestion that there should be a provincial advisory council which will deal with tourism is also a good suggestion.

His last suggestion, that there should be a national congress on tourism is to my mind a suggestion worthy of consideration but my only worry is that in so many of the organizations that we have in South Africa, where you have provincial and national congresses, they have become talking shops and a means of letting off steam rather than a means through which something constructive is done.

I want to make three points to the hon. the Minister this afternoon. Before doing so, I would like to associate myself with the congratulations that have been showered on the hon. the Minister from this side of the House on his appointment as Minister and I would like to wish him success.

The first matter I would like to mention is the employment of a man of considerable distinction and experience in tourism. I am referring to Mr. Vladimir Steyn, the former Secretary for Tourism. Mr. Steyn was a man who fell out with the hon. the Minister’s predecessor but I am not going to go into the details of why he and his Minister fell out, but in the case of Mr. Steyn you have a man of enthusiasm, of drive, initiative and experience who I feel sure could be used to assist the expansion of the Department of Tourism in order to benefit tourism as a whole in South Africa. I should like to ask the hon. the Minister whether it is not possible to make use of the services of this very distinguished South African civil servant whom I think has been retired prematurely.

I think, also, that the hon. the Minister should give consideration to the suggestion made by the hon. member for Constantia, namely that Satour should become a statutory advisory committee on tourism. I think this is a good, suggestion and that the position could only improve if the hon. the Minister were to consider the possibility of making use of the services of a man like Mr. Steyn, who has had an intimate association with Satour and with the department. He is a very well-travelled man. Perhaps he could become chairman of Satour.

Then I want to deal with a matter which, although it does not directly fall under tourism, nevertheless has a vital effect on the tourist coming to the Republic from overseas and on tourists coming down to the coast. I am referring to what appears to me to be a real problem in that there is no Government department of which I am aware that is able to provide facilities in our coastal areas for, for example, small boat harbours or yachting harbours. I think the hon. the Minister was in the House when the hon. member for Gardens suggested to the hon. the Minister of Economic Affairs that his department should take responsibility for the provision of yachting harbours. That is a good suggestion but I am afraid it will be turned down by the Minister of Economic Affairs because his attitude and that of his predecessor seems that the harbours provided by the Department of Commerce and Industries are essentially fishing harbours or fisheries harbours. There seems, therefore, to be no authority or department who is able to provide certain amenities; and the amenities I am referring to in this particular case are marine amenities in the form of yachting harbours or small boat harbours. I am sure that the hon. the Minister will be aware of the fact that in the South-Western Cape, between, say, Mossel Bay and Cape Point, there are a number of fisheries harbours such as Mossel Bay, Gansbaai, Hermanus, Gordon’s Bay, Kalk Bay and Hout Bay—those are all that come to mind at the moment. Those harbours are all fisheries harbours and very limited provision is made for small boats belonging to amateurs, either local amateurs or those who come from inland. I wonder whether the hon. the Minister would not give his attention to the possibility of his department, either by way of grants from revenue, or by the expenditure of capital, providing harbours of the kind to which I have referred. The hon. the Minister, knowing this part of the country so well, will agree with me that the sea between Mossel Bay and Cape Point provides some of the richest big game fishing grounds in the world. I believe that our sea is completely and absolutely unexploited at the moment in this regard. This could be not only a source of income from international tourists; this could also be developed far more than it has been to date to cater for internal tourism. We have on our doorstep this wonderful potential in the form of big game fishing. I have had the pleasure of attending some of the national tournaments, inter-provincial tournaments, that have taken place and I have also attended some of the international tournaments where we have had teams from Mauritius, from Madagascar, from Rhodesia and, I think, also from other overseas countries. Each and everyone of the international tourists who have attended the tournaments—they bring their wives and friends with them— have been at one in saying that we have the most wonderful natural resources here which are absolutely unexploited. Their main complaint is the absence of adequate hotel facilities, and more particularly the absence of harbours and boats which would be available for hire if we had those harbours. I would ask the hon. the Minister to give his consideration to this matter and perhaps next year come back with the suggestion that his department can take over, subsidize or assist with some of the facilities to which I have referred.

There is a third matter I want to mention. This concerns the question of international tourists coming into our ports of entry, particularly airports and harbours. Whilst this also is something that does not directly fall under the Minister, I think it is nevertheless something to which he should give his attention. One meets so many tourists from overseas who say that the reception they receive at the docks or at our airports is really second-rate. It appears as if the customs officials, some of the immigration officials and some of the airport officials, could, I think, be given a course in public relations. I feel that the hon. the Minister should give his attention to this matter. Some of his departmental officials can go to the ports of entry to see the way in which tourists are treated. I am not for a moment suggesting that tourists are treated badly at these places, but I do feel that they could perhaps be given more courteous attention and more consideration than they are being given now. The reason I think why this is so is that the customs officials and the immigration officials at the harbours and at our airports are people already busy with other jobs. The possibility comes to mind of the Minister providing at our airports and at each of our harbours one of his departmental officials in the form of a welcoming official who could make these tourists feel very much more welcome in the Republic than they are made to feel at the moment.

Lastly, I want to draw the attention of the hon. the Minister to a matter which I drew to the attention of the hon. the Minister of Transport recently, namely the rail service between Pretoria and the Kruger National Park, particularly that leading to Skukuza. It is a bad service, with an overnight stop at Nelspruit. The hon. the Minister of Transport said he would give consideration to this matter, but as the Kruger National Park is one of our most important tourist amenities, I feel that the hon. the Minister should also look into this matter to see whether it is not possible for the Railways to provide a first-class tourist train to the Kruger National Park.

Mr. Chairman, it is to be regretted that the hon. member for Simonstown spoilt an otherwise fine speech by dragging Mr. Steyn’s name into this debating chamber. For what reason should that hon. U.P. member make an appeal on behalf of Mr. Steyn? I want to tell the hon. member that Mr. Steyn is a Nationalist and that he is quite capable of handling his own affairs without its being necessary for that hon. member or his party to interfere. I therefore think that what the hon. member did was uncalled-for and in bad taste.

I want to refer to the fine tourist guides which the Department of Tourism now publishes. There has been a long-felt need for this series of route descriptions. They are very popular among motorists and we are greatly indebted to the department for publishing them. In this regard I should just like to ask for the department to consider indicating the year of publication on the inside every time such a guide is printed, because I think the fact that this is not done constitutes one of the lesser deficiencies at present. Because of my pride in my town, Verwoerdburg, I should very much like to ask that as far as the route map Pretoria-Komatipoort is concerned, certain tourist attractions in Verwoerdburg should be removed under the heading “Pretoria” and classified under their own heading of Verwoerdburg. There are, inter alia, the house Doringkloof of the late Gen. Smuts in my constituency which is a major tourist attraction and which I am very fond of showing to foreign tourists. The Air Force memorial, a picture of which appears in this year’s telephone directory and which is the work of the Verwoerdburg Publicity Association, should also be removed from the list of places of interest under Pretoria and classified under Verwoerdburg, where they belong. From the administrative point of view we shall also ask the Verwoerdburg Publicity Association to take up this matter with the department.

Having seen three fine and exceptionally outstanding films his morning which were presented by the department, and since the hon. the Minister was already been congratulated on them, I should very much like to associate myself with what has been said by previous speakers who have emphasized the role of nature, a theme which the department has chosen as its tourism theme this year, too. A fine article, written by John Raw, appeared in the Pretoria News of 15th May. I just want to quote one paragraph in which he writes about the mountains, rivers and valleys—

Now it is remarkable that on page 18 of the annual report it is said that while bodies and organizations such as regional development associations, farmers’ associations and others who had never before given much attention to tourism, have now become interested in and keen to make a contribution to the development of the industry. I think this is probably the first time that the farming sector as such has been mentioned in this official annual report of the department. It is true that city dwellers, particularly those from the large cities of the world, who travel through South Africa, as well as our local city dwellers, have mentioned what the heartfelt need it is for them when they speed along the tarred roads through the country, that the bus should only stop at a typical farmstead for half an hour, to enable them to make the acquaintance of our farm people in their natural surroundings, out there in the unspoiled rural areas. Some of the overseas tourists have told me that they would like to get to know the soul of the Afrikaner in the place where he lives.

Now I want to call to mind what has happened from time to time in the past few years here in the vicinity of the Cape Peninsula, in the lovely season when the spring flowers are blooming. I have in mind Mr. Kobus Louw of Gansekraal, near Darling, who regularly makes his tractors and trailers available over the weekends to take these people through those lovely fields of wild flowers. The hon. chairman of the National Party study group on tourism also showed a group of parliamentarians the wild flowers he has the other day in the same way. What does that typical South African farmer do when he received these city dwellers on his farm? He does not charge a fee. At the gate he has a collecting box in which a voluntary contribution is placed for the building fund of his church. That is just typical of the hospitality of the South African farmer. But now I should very much like to ask the hon. the Minister something. Since farmers’ associations are most certainly going to appreciate the potential of organized tourism to an ever-increasing extent, could his department not perhaps introduce some guide lines, in co-operation with organized agriculture, to prevent our farms from being overrun by tourists and for our farming community, too, to know how to conduct themselves properly, correctly and hospitably towards tourists but also, in so doing, for them to have a share in this source of revenue? Could it not also be made possible at the same time for small groups of sophisticated and interested visitors to visit our farms? I think that such a set of guide lines for our farmers’ associations from the Department of Tourism would mean a great deal.

Then it is interesting to note that as far as nature is concerned, three Dutch couples spoke to me recently, just before they were returning to Holland at the Jan Smuts Airport at Kempton Park, and expressed opinions in direct contrast to those of the hon. member who spoke a short while ago and is not here at the moment; these couples mentioned the satisfactory treatment they had enjoyed throughout from both airline and customs staff at the various places they had visited. But what is interesting is that they evaluated, in the course of our conversation, the tourist attractions of our country and placed the following places which they had visited, in order of popularity: No. 1, for some reason or other, Swaziland; No. 2, Etosha; No. 3, the Kruger Game Park; and lastly, Pretoria and the other cities. This is an indication of the tremendous attraction our nature has for these people. They are not so interested in our cities as such. They know cities and masses of people. They are not interested in them. They are interested in our scenery. That is why it is so interesting to read in the latest report of the National Parks Board that the number of foreign visitors to the Kruger Game Park alone, once again showed an increase and that in the past financial year, 26 000 foreign tourists visited the National Kruger Park. This is an increase on the previous year, but in relation to the number of local visitors it is only 8%. We often hear criticism from our own people that the whole of the Kruger Park is reserved only for foreign tourists, but this figure indicates that only 8 % of the visitors do in fact come from Europe and other overseas countries.

Sir, this brings me to my last point. Particularly since criticism has been levelled at the National Parks Board to the effect that the Kruger Park is always fully booked so that our people are unable to get in, I want to suggest that some of our local tourists should also consider the outstanding possibilities of the Kalahari Gemsbok Park, of Etosha, of the Bontebok National Park near here and of the Mountain Zebra National Park in the constituency of my friend, the hon. member for Cradock.

Hear, hear!

These game parks are exceptional tourist attractions which our people could utilize to a greater extent.

[Inaudible.]

Sir, the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg District says I no longer have a constituency, but I want to tell the hon. member that it is not a “Royal” constituency; it is a “loyal” constituency.

Mr. Chairman, I was advised that the hon. member for Pretoria District was going to enter this debate, but that he was going to take a completely different line to the one which he took this afternoon. I want to say that I am glad that good sense prevailed with the hon. gentleman and that he did not take the line which I was advised he would. He took my friend from Simonstown to task and said that he had spoilt a good speech by referring to the ex-Secretary for Tourism, Mr. Vladimir Steyn. He went on to castigate my friend, and in the course of his speech he asked: “Does he not know that Mr. Steyn is a Nationalist, and a good Nationalist at that?” Mr. Chairman, I want to tell the hon. member for Pretoria District that as far as we on this side of the House are concerned, if an injustice has been done, it does not matter what political affiliation the person concerned has. We do not ask first, “To which political party does he belong?” If my friend from Pretoria District does that, that is why we know that he will not come back after the next election. But, Sir, I want to go further. What did the hon. member for Simonstown ask the hon. the Minister this afternoon? He asked the hon. the Minister to consider the qualifications of this man, a man who possibly has greater qualifications in the sphere of tourism in this country than anybody else at the disposal of the hon. the Minister. All that the hon. member for Simonstown asked was that the Minister should consider using this man somewhere on the board of Satour, if not necessarily as chairman, then at least as a member of the board. Let us use these talents in this country instead of having these talents absolutely wasted. But then, Sir, we hear the sort of remarks that have just been made by the hon. member for Pretoria District because he just cannot understand anything which is outside the National Party. He still has his blinkers on; he still believes the earth is flat; he still believes that if he goes too far he will fall off the edge.

Sir, the hon. member for Simonstown and the hon. member for Pretoria District mentioned the question of reception at ports and airports. Sir, these two gentlemen differed. I must say that only last night in the Durban airport I was approached by a fine gentleman who had arrived in this country three days ago and who was absolutely disgusted with what he found in the Durban airport. I agree with him that the facilities at Durban airport are too shocking for words, particularly when you consider that this is the second largest airport in this country and is the stand-by airport for international flights that come into Jan Smuts. I believe that this Minister must use his influence, if he has any, in the Cabinet to see that something is done about Durban airport immediately, if not sooner, because the terrible facilities that we have there are a blot on the fair name of South Africa. Sir, here I have something which was purchased at Durban airport last night, “Holiday special: Australasian Post”. Sir, I repeat that this was purchased at Durban airport last night, and do you know what the date of this is? It is dated 21st December, 1972. I ask you, Sir, is this the sort of thing that we use to impress tourists when they come to South Africa? Sir, the hon. member for Pretoria District and other hon. members opposite who are trying to tell us that everything is good and fine in this country must jack up their ideas; they must either take off their blinkers, or else they must speak the truth when they speak in this place.

To whom does the bookshop belong?

Sir, I want to speak to the hon. the Minister in all seriousness about a Cinderella development in this country, one which has been neglected. I do not particularly blame him or his department for this neglect but I believe that the attention of his department could well be turned towards encouraging the development of snow-skiing facilities in South Africa, particularly in the Drakensberg. I believe that there is a move afoot by a club— a private club at this stage—to hold the first South African skiing championships, during July of this year in the Drakensberg, at a place called Tina Head. I believe that the Austrian ski champion has indicated that he is prepared to come out here, not only to assist with the judging at our own championships, but to demonstrate the latest ski techniques and to train instructors. I know, too, that a young South African has recently been granted a bursary to undergo two years’ training in Austria in ski techniques, that he will be trained as an instructor and will be a fully qualified instructor at the end of his training period. I believe that there is space for two more young South Africans to qualify for this course. I understand also that an American expert was out here during last winter, that he had a look at the snow in this area, that he agreed that the type of snow was excellent for skiing, that it was the right type, and that he believed that we could develop a ski resort in that area. He also believed that we could have ice skating and other winter sports and, of course, pony trekking through the magnificent scenery in that part of the world. I believe that a snowmaking machine has been installed and that this will provide sufficient snow and that the first ski lift is in the process of being developed. In fact, Sir, I am led to understand that in this area we could develop all the facilities required for a sophisticated skiing resort. Sir, there are, of course, also other areas where skiing fanatics can ski—and I do not apologize for using the word “fanatics”. We have in this House a foundation member of a club which developed a ski run within 120 miles of Cape Town, which I have used and which I must say is very good. I believe that bodies of this kind require encouragement from the hon. the Minister’s department. I believe that the function of this Minister’s department is not only to encourage overseas visitors to come to this country, but to encourage the use of our own facilities. The Matroosberg slope is owned, or is operated, wholly by a club and will not be open to the public, so I do not intend to speak about it at the moment, but I believe that there is also a move afoot in Lesotho to develop a similar ski resort. I do not believe that we should let Lesotho get ahead of us. I believe that this Minister should look into what is going on, and I hope he has. I hope his department has already had a look at what is going on in this particular sphere in the country and that he will tell me this afternoon that his department is giving the persons concerned all the encouragement necessary. I believe that 5 000 South Africans go to Switzerland every year to ski. Each one of them spends, on an average, just to get there and to pay the accommodation there, R500 for three weeks skiing. I believe that that R500 could be kept in South Africa if we developed a centre with the right facilities, so that these ski fanatics could have not just three weeks but two months skiing for the same amount which they are spending in Europe.

But there is another aspect to this. I said I was speaking only from the internal point of view but there is a large industry growing up in South America as well as in Australia, a tourist industry based on snow and skiing. It is a lot more expensive for Europeans to get there but I believe that at one resort in the Argentine this year they are catering for 35 000 Europeans, people from Europe, who will go there for the skiing facilities in the European summer. Surely South Africa could get a share of this. I am sure that we could develop these facilities and when I think of the foreign exchange that could be saved through people not leaving the country, I think that the hon. the Minister should look further into this matter. I sincerely hope that the hon. the Minister will be able to tell us this afternoon that he is doing or has done something about this, or if he is unable to tell me that, that he will at least give an undertaking that he and his department will investigate this aspect further with a view to assisting that sector of our tourist industry in this country.

I just want to give the hon. member for Pietermaritzburg District, who has just resumed his seat, the assurance that this side of the House also has appreciation for the positive contribution made by Mr. Steyn, the former Secretary to this department. The hon. member for Pretoria District is on record in Hansard as having conveyed the appreciation of this side of the House to Mr. Steyn while he was still Secretary to the department. But I also believe that the right thing to do is to pay tribute when it is necessary, and also when it is time to do so, and for that reason I feel myself at liberty this afternoon to express a few brief words of special thanks to the present Secretary, Mr. Wessels, who is not only Secretary to the department but also chairman of the Satour Board. We should also like to pay tribute to Mr. Owen, the director of Satour, and then a special word of honour and thanks go to Mr. Da Silva, the photographer who made some of the films for Satour. This morning, when we had an opportunity of seeing some of these films—and those that come to mind are “The Peace Game” and “Vrede in ons Tyd”—one could not help realizing that one was dealing here with a master. Consequently we should like to congratulate Mr. Da Silva on the various awards the films which he shot have already won at international film festivals and exhibitions. It simply became clearer to me this morning that the charm not only for people from abroad but also for us in South Africa lies in the peace, quiet and tranquility which is to be found in our country; the charm lies in the natural beauty of the country, as was very effectively depicted this morning. For that reason we are grateful that the department and Satour accepted as theme that we should preserve what is beautiful and useful. May we express the hope and belief that this theme will bear fruit not only in South Africa but throughout the entire world, since there are so many beautiful, fine and unblemished things which could be preserved.

It was gratifying to be able to observe in this report of the department that interest in tourism is no longer restricted only to those organizations which are directly concerned with national and international tourism. For that reason we are grateful that we are today able to begin to talk of a national effort to promote tourism in South Africa, in the interests not only of those who come to South Africa from abroad, but also of us here in South Africa who have so much to give and to enjoy in our beautiful country. It is gratifying to see that some of the organizations which themselves offered to render assistance, as well as organizations which are beginning to discuss tourism on a broader basis, include, inter alia, regional associations, farmers’ associations, women’s associations, chambers of commerce, etc. I think it is a good and a fine thing that various organizations in South Africa are not only displaying interest, but are also making contributions in respect of ideas and constructive criticism on the expansion and development of our tourist potential. However, the question arises whether everyone in South Africa is pulling their full weight in promoting tourism. When I say this I am thinking of some of our big public companies and commercial enterprises. I think there is a wide field in which these groups could make a greater contribution in respect of conservation, beautification and the making available of areas for tourism in South Africa.

One finds that it is an almost daily occurrence that some of our bigger companies —I am thinking in particular of fuel companies—make thousands and tens of thousands of stickers available. These stickers have to be designed and printed at a cost of several thousands of rand, but some of these stickers in my opinion have no educational value. In fact, I think they are more of a burden than a blessing to us when we consider attempts to keep our country clean and hygienic. One wonders whether it is not possible to establish a publicity pool or an advertisement brokers’ association which could perhaps be managed by the department, through which the various organziations may be afforded the opportunity of paying the large amounts they spend on publicity into such a publicity pool so that it may be used to good effect by the department for the foreign as well as the local tourist in South Africa. The funds in such a publicity pool could, for example, be utilized for the purpose of beautification and for the establishment of services which have not as yet been properly developed in South Africa.

I also think that it is clear that a very specific distinction will be drawn between foreign and local tourists in South Africa. It is a good thing that a great deal should be done for foreign tourists, for we in South Africa want to be proud of what is being offered to those who come to South Africa from abroad. However, I think that there are still fields where more could be done for our local tourists. When we think of our local tourists, we find that they may be divided into two groups. In the first place there are those who want to see the country, who want to visit unknown places. However, there is the other group which we could call “holiday-makers” rather than “tourists”. They are the people who want to enjoy a rest.

Consequently I want to present a plea this afternoon for greater consideration of the possibility of establishing places of rest in South Africa, places of rest where the tariffs will not be exceptionally high, places of rest where South Africans who have a well-accomplished month’s, or quarter’s, or six months’ work behind them can relax for two or three days. One appreciates all over again the gospel truth that rest is in fact to be found in quietude.

I want to present a plea this afternoon to the effect that if it is possible to establish more of these places of rest in South Africa, modelled on the developments of the National Parks Board, the province of the Orange Free State should be borne in mind to greater extent. Sometimes we in the Free State cannot help feeling that we have been rather badly done by in some spheres. It is true that the Free State has the raw materials. We realize that the raw materials which we offer to South Africa through the Free State gold-fields require a national effort and offer a national income, but I think that a great deal of the benefit which is derived from the development of the Free State gold-fields does not accrue to the Free State as it should. In addition we have the water in the Free State which we gladly donate to the Vaal Triangle because we know that it is needed there as well and can be used to good effect. However, we feel that it is perhaps fair to make an appeal in this House to private organizations in South Africa to do more to make the Free State available to tourists from the other provinces as quid pro quo for our raw materials. I think that one could with a great measure of justification say that the Free State, with its people, has never left any organization or group in the lurch. When I say that I am not referring derogatorily to the fact that the National Party holds all the constituencies in the Free State, for there are some of our United Party friends in the Free State who, despite good-humoured banter on the part of those of us sitting on this side of the House, are still loyal supporters of that side. I think that there are other spheres as well where it has been proved that the Free State has never, in our history, left anyone in the lurch. Consequently we can give these private organizations the assurance that the Free State will not let them down with its support if they want to make use of the Free State for the purpose of sight-seeing. In the discussion of his Vote the hon. the Minister of Community Development said that there were two sides to every matter; that is true. In the Free State we have the Maluti mountains, but up the the present we have seen only the one side of those mountains. The south-eastern side of the Maluti mountains, bordering on Lesotho, are inaccessible from the Free State. When I speak of a publicity pool to which various organizations could contribute for the establishment of amenities, I wonder whether it is not possible to instil this idea in some of our big companies. They could then, jointly, construct a tourist road for us to the south-eastern side of the Maluti mountains, not only for the sake of South Africa, but also for the sake of visitors to Lesotho. I am thinking in this connection of organizations such as construction companies, cement manufacturers, bitumen manufacturers, engineering associations, fuel and rubber companies. If they were to contribute to this, they would not only be making publicity for themselves, but would also be rendering a service to South Africa. Cognizance would also be taken with great gratitude and appreciation of the contribution they would be making.

Since I have now extolled the virtues of a few characteristics of the Free State, I want to conclude with the following words: The greatest asset of the Free State is its human material, and in the past this human material has proved to us that they played their part. For that reason it is with gratitude that we took cognizance of the contribution made by the Secretary to this department. It is probably unnecessary to say that he is also an ex-Free Stater. I hope therefore that this department will in future not only make use of the human material of the Free State. We want to invite South Africa to come and see the Free State; there one will still find peace and there one will still find tranquillity.

Mr. Chairman, I should like to associate myself with the plea made by the hon. member for Bethlehem. He asked for particular attention to be given to our tourist facilities in South Africa, but also to our tourist facilities for our internal tourists. I also agree with his idea that we can make greater use of the exploitation of the beautiful Maluti mountains for our tourists. To my mind wonderful progress has been made in that hon. member’s constituency, and particularly in the Golden Gate area, in recent years.

†There are a few matters which I should like to raise with the hon. the Minister. The first is in regard to existing facilities for the provision of guide books in South Africa for tourists. I know that guide books are issued by certain associations, by motorist clubs and so forth, and I know that some of them are beautifully printed, are in colour, are well bound and everything. However, I do not quite think that these guide books fulfil the purpose of the ordinary tourist. I am not suggesting that the hon. the Minister must now become a publisher of guide books, but perhaps he could drop a word in the right department so that we can have something which could compare with, say, Guide Michelin, or the guide book of the touring club Italiano in Europe, which are magnificent publications providing great details of the towns and the routes. For instance, you can take a guide book of the touring club Italiano or of the Guide Michelin, and while you are in South Africa you can plan your route right up to the front door of your hotel, whether it be in Paris, Rome or Florence. The guide book will give you a town plan indicating which streets are one-way streets; it will give you the hotel names, the prices at the hotels, the names of the restaurants, the quality of their food and the prices. I really do think that there is an opportunity in this country of ours for an improvement in the general level of our guide books for the internal tourist and particularly for the external tourist, and more particularly for the external tourist who wants to use his own vehicle to travel in South Africa.

Secondly, I have mentioned restaurants. I do not wish to burden the hon. the Minister with the task in regard to restaurants that he already has in regard to the hotels. Again I wish to submit to him for his consideration a matter which he might take up in certain quarters—I do not know which; probably free enterprise quarters— that the time has probably come for South Africa to grade the restaurants in our big cities with regard to quality, ambience, view, prices, the supply of wines and so forth, as is done in respect of every country in Europe today. It is something which I believe is needed. I know that there are one or two guide books which do give a sort of informal classification, but I do not think they have the same authority as for instance the Guide Michelin will have in France with their classification of hotels and restaurants. Again it is a matter which I think will improve our tourist potential in this country.

There is a third matter I want to raise. Again, it is not for the hon. the Minister himself to do something but I hope that the authorities that be at some time or other will see whether, particularly for oversea tourists, better facilities cannot be offered as regards night life and whether our Sundays cannot be made just a bit more attractive for those persons coming from overseas. If a person planning a holiday in South Africa decides to spend three days in Johannesburg and those three days were to be Friday, Saturday and Sunday, I doubt whether he really could do justice to a city such as Johannesburg with the facilities that are offered over the weekends. Tourists’ time is limited; they cannot afford more than three or four days in any particular city and they would like to plan for those days. They would like to know that on Sundays they can also enjoy facilities which would otherwise be denied them. I am not asking for us to change our pattern of life in this country and that sort of thing, but I do think we can be a little more tolerant with regard to these issues.

The final point I want to raise with the hon. the Minister concerns a matter I raised with him by way of a question, namely the excessive charges made by certain hotels who have installed the P.A.B.X. system. At the moment they are charging excessive fees for local and for trunk calls. The situation is apparently that if anyone wants to put through a trunk call at certain of these hotels about which I have had complaints, it goes through the P.A.B.X. system and instead of the person being charged four cents per unit or four cents plus 20% or 25%, the person is actually charged ten cents for a four cent unit, which amounts to a 250% profit per unit. I think that is excessive. The hon. the Minister has promised that he would look into the matter. I am glad that he has, but I was a bit disappointed to hear that he had no statutory power, really, to do anything in that regard. I do not know whether that means that he cannot do anything in regard to the grading of a particular hotel. Perhaps he could tell us what powers he actually has in regard to grading and so forth. I am sure that I have his sympathy in that he agrees that some of these charges are really excessive. I have here for instance an account which came to me in a letter an hour or two ago, in which a person complains that for a short trunk call he made between Johannesburg and Cape Town, he was charged R9-10. That is an excessive charge for a trunk call. I do not know how long the trunk call was, but I accept his word that the charge is excessive.

These are the few points I wanted to raise with the hon. the Minister.

Mr. Chairman, I listened to the debate with great interest, and I should like to thank hon. members on both sides of the House for their contributions. I found the debate very interesting. Many suggestions have been made. I do not know whether I will have the time to refer to every point that was raised, but I will do my best to reply to as many as possible. I should like to thank hon. members on both sides of the House very much for their kind congratulations on my appointment as Minister of Tourism, and for their good wishes. I appreciate this very much.

From the very start I want to stress that today it is accepted that the tourist industry has become the biggest single industry in the world. The tourist industry in South Africa today is a much bigger industry than many of us realize.

†One gets the impression, an impression I have gained since coming into this department, that this industry is somewhat of a Cinderella amongst our departments and our industries, but I think that one must see this in proper perspective. Our tourist industry consists, as has rightly been pointed out, of the foreign tourist industry which deals with the bringing of people into the country. This tourist trade is today a very competitive trade. In addition to this kind of tourism, there is of course the domestic tourist industry, within the country. I would briefly like to say a few words about both.

Last year we received in this country 534 000 tourists from abroad, which is a substantial increase on the figure for the year before.

*The hon. member for Koedoespoort quite rightly referred to this. The increase in foreign tourism is substantially more than the average world figure, and one is very grateful for this. I also want to say that included in this figure of 534 000 tourists from abroad there were more than 25 000 non-White tourists. I think hon. members will agree with me that we have not really had any problems in this connection.

†I want to stress what was also said by the hon. member for Koedoespoort, that at the moment we are receiving at least one half of all our foreign tourists from countries in Europe. America and Australasia as against African and nearby countries. Five, six or seven years ago the proportion of tourists coming in from neighbouring countries was 80% of the total and we have therefore had much success with the number we have attracted from further afield. I think that is important, because these are the people who, we find, are in the first place spending more money than the tourists, on the average, who come from nearby African territories, for example. I also think, and hon. members will agree with me, that it is important for us to receive large numbers of visitors from European countries. America, Australasia, South America and I believe now also, with the development of new air services, from the Far East. I think there is a very big public relations function, a big public relations aspect, involved in this. I therefore welcome very much this larger proportion of foreign tourists coming from further afield, from the countries with which we have had long traditional ties in many respects. The most important sources of tourism for us today are the United Kingdom, North America, that is the United States and Canada, West Germany, which has become very important—the rate of increase of tourists from West Germany over the last three years being very rapid indeed— and also Australasia, Australia and New Zealand, from where the numbers are rising very fast. This I would put down partly to the improved air services between South Africa and Australia.

I should just like to comment on remarks about Sartoc, which was raised by the hon. member for East London City. This council formally got off the ground in March at a conference in Mauritius, a conference which I had the honour to attend. This was a follow-up of the agreement between South Africa and the Portuguese provinces of Angola and Mozambique, as well as Swaziland, Malawi and Mauritius. We hope that in time, as we go along, other countries will join in. Had it not been for the unfortunate constitutional position which appertains to Rhodesia today, there would have been no doubt that Rhodesia would also have formed part of the agreement. But I believe that other neighbouring countries are going to join as well. I believe that this council, Sartoc, has a very big role to play, not only in tourism, and to our advantage, but, indeed, in a wider sphere of international relations and goodwill as well, particularly for this country.

I should like to draw the attention of the House to the spirit in which these discussions took place in Mauritius in March. The Secretary for Tourism, and the other members of his department who accompanied us, all agree with me, in fact, that there could not have been a better spirit than that which prevailed at all the discussions. What we did there was to appoint the Minister of External Affairs and Tourism of Mauritius, Mr. Gaetan Duval, as the first chairman of Sartoc. Until we appoint the first director, we appointed the town clerk of Port Louis, the biggest city of Mauritius, in a temporary capacity. He is a very distinguished authority on public administration and in other fields. Mr. Bukori made a very great impression on all of us. I think we were very fortunate that until such time as we can make a permanent appointment—we are busy on that now— we have the services of such an efficient and experienced official as Mr. Bukori at our disposal. I might just mention that we agreed amongst ourselves that for the first year there would be a budget of £50 000 and of that £50 000 South Africa is contributing just over £32 000. However, as I have indicated, we consider that a very good investment, and if Sartoc can continue in the spirit in which it was founded —and I am optimistic in this regard—we will increasingly find that that is a very small price to pay for this latest form of international co-operation involving South Africa.

I do not think the hon. member wanted me to go into great detail but there was another point he did raise. He asked how I saw the tourist position in South Africa in relation to Sartoc. The two great aims of Sartoc are, of course: (1) as first essential to encourage tourists to come to these six member territories, and (2) to promote and encourage inter-regional and inter-country travel among these six member countries. I am taking Angola and Mozambique as two separate areas. We are busy with this at the moment. We believe as we have seen so often—take for example Europe—that people today do not want to go just to France, West Germany or Italy. If they arrive there, they immediately want to go to a number of countries. The travel agent will tell you that this is always the case. We would like to say to people who want to come to South Africa that we have a workable arrangement according to which they can, without too much trouble, go to Malawi, Swaziland or Mauritius or wherever they like, and that we can organize it all at the same time. On the other hand, if these people say to agents abroad that they want to come to Malawi, or Mauritius, the agent can ask them why not include South Africa? This is how the matter is being organized. We believe that we will not lose tourists in that they will now perhaps go to Malawi or Mauritius and who might have come to us. On the contrary, all of us believe—and we have discussed this very carefully—that we all stand to gain because we will now make a much bigger pool amongst ourselves. I believe the first indications are already very interesting. The first indications are that this has created a lot of interest in the international tourism field. These are early days as far as this is concerned, but I believe that this is going to build up, as it deserves to.

As far as group travel is concerned, to which the hon. member for East London City referred, I want to say that the facilities that are available, for example, to bring groups of people to South Africa by air, will be extended. This matter is being discussed at the moment. There are many details which have to be discussed, for instance with the different air-lines. This all requires a good deal of organization, but I may say that this is all under discussion at the moment. We do not see any insuperable problems in this connection.

Mr. Chairman, may I ask the hon. the Minister a question? I put a pointed question to the hon. the Minister and I should like to repeat it now. Do travel agents now have the green light to go ahead and arrange tours for people who wish to come here on a visit to these five countries, regardless of the composition of those groups? Will such people be able to come here without any difficulties?

Yes; I think one may say that the very first task we gave to the new executive, in other words to the chairman and the acting director and his small staff, was that this must immediately be made known all over, and this is being done, undoubtedly. As a matter of fact, I believe that Satour is going to play a very important part here. We have offered Satour facilities in this respect wherever we could, and again I believe that this is going to be very much to our advantage.

Will this be done without restriction as to the composition of such groups, as regards colour or anything else?

Yes. We have not encountered any problems in that regard at all.

*I just want to refer to an important aspect of this industry, i.e. the foreign exchange that is earned, the foreign currency that is brought into South Africa from outside by tourists. The hon. member for Constantia mentioned a figure of R90 million. This is far too conservative. The real figure is much higher. However, I do not take it amiss of him that he mentioned that figure, because, strangely enough, this is the kind of figure that is still being mentioned everywhere. One reads it in newspapers and in other publications.

†One of the first things I did when I took office was to try to ascertain the amount of foreign exchange brought into South Africa as a result of tourism. This was the sort of figure I got; in fact, some of the figures I was given were much lower. I asked for a thorough study of this matter to be made. The trouble is that the official statistics, or rather the basis of these statistics, have not been revised for some time. The weakness was that the average figure being given in respect of the daily expenditure by the average tourist was hopelessly too low. I myself started asking tourists, wherever I met them, what they were spending, and after some months I made my own calculations. At the same time I asked my department to go into the matter very fully on a much more systematic basis. At the moment I think I can quite safely say that the amount of foreign exchange that is being brought into South Africa per annum is at least R200 million. It may be as much as R225 million a year. The reason for this estimate is that I am sure that the average tourist from abroad spends more than three weeks here—my figure is 24 days—and that during that period he is spending at least R15 a day. One must think of internal travel. A good deal is being spent on moving around in the country. The estimate I have given excludes the cost of coming here. Many of the tourists who come to South Africa make use of South African Airways, but I have not taken that into consideration.

Mr. Chairman, may I ask the hon. the Minister a question? Could the hon. the Minister tell me how he reconciles his estimate of R200 million with the Reserve Bank’s figure for 1971, which is the latest figure available?

I have mentioned that the reason for the large difference is that the basis on which the Reserve Bank’s calculation was made was unfortunately an old basis which had not been revised for some time. The amount which tourists are spending is rising rapidly year by year. That is the real reason for this difference. The figure on which their calculations were based, relating to the average expenditure per day by the average tourist, was unfortunately rather outdated.

Is the basis calculated per capita per day?

Yes, but the figure I mentioned reflects the total expenditure per annum by all the tourists who come here. My basis for arriving at this figure is that each tourist spends R15 a day on average and that tourists remain here for an average period of 24 days. If you multiply that figure by the number of tourists who visit South Africa, namely 534 000,

you arrive at an amount of something over R200 million per annum. I should like to say that, at the present rate of increase in the number of tourists coming to this country, I estimate that before the decade is out, that is to say in less than seven years, we shall find more than a million tourists coming to South Africa. By then, bearing in mind the increase in expenditure each year by tourists, it could easily happen that tourism will be bringing in at least R500 million a year in foreign exchange. In a sense, Sir, one could almost say that this is pure profit. It is something we hand to the hon. the Minister of Finance with no strings attached; we do not deduct all sorts of things. We say: “That is our contribution to the balance of payments.” The hon. the Minister of Finance, I am quite sure, will feel that that is a sizeable contribution, and I am sure that if we should approach the hon. the Minister with justified requests for more money as we go along, he will bear that in mind. I do not want to bind him further than that at the moment. I thought I should mention this because, as I said at the start, this is a much bigger industry than people generally realize.

*Mr. Chairman, one must take into account that the movement of people is not the only thing that we are concerned with here; the accommodation industry is also involved in this. We have created a very effective hotel industry, especially since the Hotel Board was created in 1965, which is only eight years ago. We also have a large transport industry. It is true that criticism is exercised in this regard, and I will come to that, but we have a large industry here which is important to the tourist industry. Then there is the entertainment industry which is being developed on a large scale. If one considers all these aspects one has to admit that this is a very large industry in which hundreds of millions of rands, and even thousands of millions of rands, have been invested. It affords work opportunities to thousands upon thousands of people of all population groups.

†So, Mr. Chairman, I stress again that we must take a broader look at tourism than we have tended to take in the past. We must realize that this is becoming a major industry.

Then, Sir, I want to come to domestic tourism in general. This matter has been raised on both sides of the House and there have been some very interesting contributions in this regard. I want to say that I agree that there are some aspects relating to the promotion of tourism domestically which need to be jolted and perhaps spurred on a little. I do want to say, however, that as far as accommodation is concerned, there has been an enormous improvement, particularly in the hotel industry. 1 377 Hotels have been graded, of which just over 70% are one-star hotels. There is also a very satisfactory number of five-star top hotels. In this connection I want to refer hon. members to a recent statement by a very well-known tourist, a man who has travelled the world many times, Mr. William Howard Robb, from England. He was recently here. He has spent a great deal of money on tourism and has been travelling the world with his wife since 1951. In an interview with the Natal Mercury the other day, he had this to say—

Then he says—

Then he goes on to say—

The report goes on to say—

I thought I would mention this, Sir, because this is not just the opinion of an ordinary run-of-the-mill tourist. If there is such a thing as a professional tourist, I suppose one could call Mr. Robb that.

Mr. Chairman, I would like at the same time to pay a tribute to the Hotel Board.

*I think that the Hotel Board in its short lifetime, from 1965, has done a wonderful job in improving our accommodation and, especially, in building up our hotel industry. Hon. members may be interested to hear that the Hotel Board at present spends almost 40% of its budget on the training of staff for the hotel industry. I do not have the time this afternoon to give all the details here; I had a great deal to say about this when I recently opened the hotel school in Johannesburg. It is worth while seeing that school. Young people are being trained there to hold the highest managing posts in the hotel industry. I was very much impressed by the standards maintained there. The Hotel Board is an excellent board, and quite a number of other bodies are being represented on it.

†Mr. Chairman, what is our aim as far as tourism is concerned? Perhaps I could just read out to you what I said, amongst other things, in a public speech a little while ago on this subject. I said—

My guess is—and here I am sticking out my neck; we are trying to work out a reliable figure—that the amount invested in our hotels in South Africa today must almost certainly exceed R600 million. If you weigh that up, Sir, I think you will agree that that is a very big investment in only one part of the tourist industry. I went on to say—

If you ask me. Sir, which is the single most important of these three reasons, I would say the last one. I then went on to say—

*This point was raised by the hon. member for De Aar, and I think also by the hon. member for Oudtshoorn and others, i.e. that we must not try to move too quickly. I went on to say—

I have thought it fit, Sir, just to read these few paragraphs to you. This is how I generally see the matter. I immediately want to express my appreciation towards those of my colleagues who have stressed here that we must conserve nature. One hon. member spoke about the charm of nature. These are beautiful words to me. Someone else said that nature was our greatest asset. I think we should always observe this. I also immediately want to express my appreciation for the co-operation we are receiving from the National Parks Board and from other bodies that are concerned with the conservation of our wild life and our natural beauty. I think we are very fortunate in having this fine co-operation with other departments and Government bodies.

†Then perhaps I could just say that, talking of domestic tourism, I believe that the regional tourist offices, “die streekkomitees”, have a very important part to play in developing this whole industry. I am not sure that we are in fact using them or have been using them to their full potential. I can assure hon. members on both sides of the House, because it was raised by both sides, that this is something we are looking at very carefully at the moment. Our aim is to give these bodies the opportunity to be as effective as they would like to be because their interest and their dedication to the cause of tourism is something which is very good to see. I have met a number of these people and I believe that they are going to play a very big part.

The question has arisen from time to time whether these bodies, these regional tourists bodies, should fall under the central Government, i.e. under the Department of Tourism, or should they not perhaps be under the provinces. This matter has been discussed a good deal. I should like to say that after giving it the most careful thought over many months and talking to very many people who are involved in this matter, I have become convinced myself that there is a great need that there should be overall co-ordination over these regional bodies from the centre, from the Department of Tourism, but I believe at the same time that we can make more effective use of the provinces in this regard. We are doing everything possible, and will be in the next few months, to make this co-ordination and co-operation with the provinces a much more effective thing. I have not the slightest doubt that we will have the full co-operation of the provinces. I am sure of it, and I believe that this will be a very great factor in developing what we call domestic tourism a great deal more than we have been able to do up to now. I mention that in order to clarify that issue and I want to say immediately that I believe the provinces have a much bigger role to play, and I am sure they will play it.

Then the question was raised about a national conference on tourism. I should like to say that my department is busy with that very matter at the moment, and has been for some time. But it takes a good deal of time to organize a national conference in an industry which consists of so many different parts. We are busy with it. We will organize this national conference if not towards the end of this year, then early in the new year. I hope that it will be a very successful and a very wide-ranging one, because I agree that the time is ripe when we should get all the different parts of this rather wide-ranging industry together and have a thorough, open discussion of what the problems are and how best to achieve the aim we all want, which is a first-class tourist industry. That is on the drawing board; it is more than on the drawing board—the detailed arrangements are well in hand.

I might just mention that when I spoke of the provinces and the provinces’ role in domestic tourism, I should also like to say that I think a very important role is being played and will be played by the publicity associations. They are part of the mechanism of the tourist structure. I met the national chairman of the publicity associations and certain of his senior officials a week or two ago. I can assure the Committee that we had extremely constructive detailed discussions. I believe that we were talking very much the same language throughout. I have mentioned the National Parks Board.

*Now I also want to refer briefly to the National Transport Commission which was mentioned here, and the Department of Transport which plays such an important part in our tourist industry. I immediately want to say that our relations on the part of the Department of Tourism with these bodies are of the best. I personally and some of my senior officials have on various occasions and especially during the past few months had discussions with the hon. the Minister of Transport, the Deputy Minister of Transport and some of their senior officials. To me those discussions have been very valuable, and I have no doubt that they will have very good results. I feel that we are receiving the fullest cooperation there, and I should like to mention this here.

†Talking about transport, I should like to say that the air hotel plan, as it is called, this recent plan which has been mentioned here and which was introduced by the South African Airways to incorporate travel within the country with a holiday in a particular place, for instance taking a group of tourists from Cape Town to Durban to spend a week in Durban and then bringing them back, is working exceptionally well. It was only started recently, but it is having a tremendous success. I can say that only the other night I talked to the chairman of one of our biggest hotel groups and he mentioned this as one of the best developments in recent years that he could remember. I should therefore like to express my appreciation to the South African Airways and the Department of Transport for this latest and further practical indication of their interest in tourism.

While I am on that, I should like to mention the fact that we are criticized from time to time because we do not encourage chartered flights. It is said that this is something which is used widely throughout the world. That is true. We are criticized from time to time that we do not give overmuch encouragement to chartered flights. Well, there are good reasons why we cannot encourage what I like to call some of the fly-by-night enterprises where somebody books a plane. Later the persons who have made bookings through him find that there is no plane available and that he has absconded in the meantime. We had these things. During the course of this session the hon. the Deputy Minister of Transport piloted a Bill through Parliament to amend the relevant Act in order to make it possible for the Department of Transport to deal with such pirate operators who do no good to anybody and least of all to our tourist trade. I think that is something which we support very strongly from our side. I just want to mention that whilst we may not have a great number of these charter flights, we have developed, through the S.A. Airways, group tours which are working well and which are extremely popular. I can tell hon. members that provision is made today for group tours to South Africa, consisting of not less than ten passengers, whereby you can actually get a return ticket say, from London to Johannesburg, for R319. I think hon. members will agree with me that it is an exceptionally competitive figure.

Why can this not be applicable to group tours from Johannesburg to London and back?

Yes, it can be done, but our great aim is of course to attract people from abroad to South Africa. People are very eager to travel abroad, but we want to attract them to South Africa. I want to tell hon. members that if you take a group tour with not less than 20 passengers you can get a return ticket from London to Johannesburg for R275. I doubt whether you can beat these rates anywhere in the world. I have been trying to get figures for a comparison, I do not think that you can beat them. While I am talking about group tours I can also mention that from New York—which after all is a long way away—to Johannesburg, if you have a group of 15 passengers, the tariff is R522. This is the price of a return ticket from New York, while the price of a return ticket from Rio de Janeiro is R436. The last-mentioned tariff is a little bit higher than the rest, but it is a new service and the group tour has to be developed a great deal more. I want to suggest that those are extremely competitive rates and that when we talk of charter flights, we must keep this development in mind.

*1 do not want to speak much longer, and shall just have a quick look at my notes. I have dealt with Sartoc, but I still want to say something in connection with research, an aspect which was raised by the hon. member for East London City. I think that research in this industry is a very important aspect. We are improving our research service. There are quite a number of aspects of this industry which have to be studied more accurately on a continuous basis. Perhaps we will need a little more money for that.

As regards the recommendations made by the Riekert Report. I have already covered certain aspects. I just want to say that as regards the registration of private accommodation, which was mentioned by the hon. member, the department went much further. The department investigated all the tourist attractions and affairs. It had a look at transport, accommodation, and even entertainment, and has made surveys on a large scale. Those figures are now being processed. I hope that the results arising from this will mean a great deal to us. I can just tell the hon. member that we are working on that.

†In regard to the dual control of hotels, I must admit that I could not hear the hon. member too clearly. I think he had in mind something like the Hotel Board with certain functions and possibly the Liquor Board with certain functions. Of course there is a long history attached to this and one cannot simply try and change these historical structures overnight …

There is an empire and nobody can deny it.

… that is to say if they have to be changed. What I can say is that I have the closest association and co-operation with my colleague, the hon. the Minister of Justice, under whom the Liquor Board resides and we have had many discussions on these matters. When problems crop up we get together and the impression that I have is that we are getting a much smoother functioning as we go along. I am quite sure that both of us will continue to give this very close attention. If I say that we have done this on 10 occasions during the last few months, I do not think that I am exaggerating. Therefore, I can answer that question in that sense.

It is a question of double-staff.

No, it is not really a question of double staff. There are different aims involved. Hotels have to be inspected and graded, and then the liquor authorities have to look at certain specific things which their experience over many years has taught them are important. It is not so easy simply to cut out the other service altogether.

Just transfer the staff.

No, What we are trying to do is to get a much more co-ordinated approach and to streamline the inspection services.

*The hon. member for Stellenbosch referred to the Indian market in Durban which unfortunately has burnt down. He pointed out that it was a very important tourist attraction. That is true. Especially anybody from Natal would know how true that is. I referred to this on Wednesday during the discussion of the Vote Indian Affairs, I do not want to say much more about it. I feel that everything is ready now for the establishment of temporary facilities on the old market premises; everything is there. The hon. the Minister of Finance has agreed to our making available R100 000 for the creation of temporary facilities. The Departments of Community Development and of Public Works, and everybody else are ready to help, and I really hope that the Durban City Council will now without further delay set to work to erect that building. It is said that I have agreed to any temporary facilities standing for three years only and no longer, but I am sorry to have to say here that that is not so. I never agreed to that point at all, because, if nothing further can be done about the matter within the next two or three years and we have to demolish that temporary building, we will again be without an Indian market, and that is a state of affairs which I would not like to see at all. I think that our Indian population deserves better than that. I just want to repeat that everything is ready and that we are hoping that within the next few days the erection of that building will have been started. Then the Indians will again be able to use those stands which are so important to them and which are so important for the tourist industry as well, because that market attracted thousands upon thousands of tourists annually, not only from everywhere in South Africa, but also from abroad.

Are you going to move the inner ring road?

No. I may just say that the hon. member for Zululand mentioned the other day that the police had objected and that that was one of the reasons why the Durban City Council had not started on the temporary building. However, that is not so. The police have raised no objection whatsoever to a temporary building being erected. As far as the inner ring road is concerned, it is going to take up only a small corner of what we call the whole present Indian Market area. Indeed, it was the Mayor of Durban who recommended in discussions that we should use the old Indian Market site, leaving out the part to be taken up by the road. In other words, he agreed with the strong representations I made on that point. That road will take up only a small part of the whole area that is available.

The hon. member for Constantia made some very constructive proposals, if I may say so. He talked about the Reynders Commissions’ recommendations for encouraging exports by means of export allowances and hoped that something might be done to use that mechanism to encourage the tourist trade and to bring tourists into the country; in other words, to encourage those people who make it their job to bring tourists into the country. I may say that that matter was raised with the Department of Commerce by my department. It is under discussion by the Department of Commerce and we are looking forward very much indeed to the outcome. We certainly feel that that is a very useful proposal and we have been busy with it for some time.

The other point the hon. member raised was in connection with the Tourism Advisory Committee, commonly known as T.A.C. The hon. member said that this might be a statutory body and that it should be fully representative of a whole number of bodies.

As recommended in the report.

Yes. But we do not feel there is a great deal wrong with the structure of the department, that is to say, with the department as such, and Satour, an autonomous corporation which is the specialist body outside the country and which has to promote the bringing of tourists to South Africa. It is doing a very fine job. We have the Hotel Board which deals with the accommodation aspect and the advisory body which my predecessor formed and to which he appointed a number of people. I must say that my own view, for what it is worth, is that I do not think this should be a statutory body because we have a statutory body, namely the department. Satour is also a statutory body and so is the Hotel Board. These are the operating bodies. T.A.C. is a purely advisory body. What we can do when the time comes is to look at the composition, and if it is necessary to broaden it, we can certainly do that. I would merely like to say that T.A.C. has been showing a lot of interest in tourist problems and has put up a number of recommendations some of which we have already been able to implement; others we are discussing with a large number of departments and other interests which are concerned.

*This is something we must not lose sight of. It may prove easy to bring about a change, but then one should keep in mind that this may often be far-reaching in its implications. There are many other bodies and departments which must not only be consulted, but whose agreement and cooperation must be obtained before those changes can be made. We are, however, working on this matter, and will in time publish its results.

†I now want to come back for a moment to the remarks made by some hon. friends that we must be careful not to move too fast. I have here a rather interesting little reference. It is a Press report which appeared in an overseas newspaper. It was picked up by The Star at the end of last year. It is called “Tourism Turned Sour”. What is interesting is that they refer to Spain, because Spain is the country where in recent years tourism has really taken off, that is to say the bringing in of tourists from outside Spain. Let me just say that we must remember that Spain is right in the middle of Europe. It costs less for a German family to take their holiday in Spain, including air fare, than it does for them to stay at home. The cost of living there is low and travel is cheap, with the result that Spain is said to have had 29 million tourists from abroad last year. I believe that figure is exaggerated because they pick up these figures mainly through the returns of hotels. It is quite clear that a good deal of overlapping and double counting take place. Nevertheless, the number of tourists runs into millions. This is a report from Spain. It deals with these huge figures, and then reads:

The majority then still lived in the rural areas. That position has changed overnight. The report continues:

I think this is the sort of warning of which we ought to take cognizance in good time. We have not come anywhere near that position in this country. We are doing everything possible to develop our tourist industry, both from outside and in the country, but we certainly are not going to allow our great cultural and traditional heritage in this country to be ploughed under in the process. Certainly, we will not allow our wonderful natural endowments and beauty to be impaired or harmed in the process. But I think that must be very strongly stated.

I am sorry if I have not replied to all the points that were raised. There are a few others, but I really do not want to take up too much of your time.

The hon. member for Pietermaritzburg District spoke about skiing. This is, of course, really a sport, but I have noted what he has said and I will certainly have a chat with my hon. colleague, the Minister of Sport. We have discussed these matters in detail in the last few years. It is a very costly scheme to build a proper skirun. I had some experience of the problem when I was assisting with these matters in Lesotho a few years ago. I merely wish to say that I will follow it up again and certainly talk to the hon. Minister of Sport.

The hon. member for Simonstown talked about small boats and yachting harbours, and of the need to develop these assets. I agree with him. I used to own a yacht myself at one time, until I ran aground and ruined it. I would merely like to say that only in the last few weeks the Department of Industries called a meeting of a whole number of interested bodies. I was told that they had a very thorough discussion. The matter is therefore very much under discussion, and my department is one of those instances involved. I hope something can come of the discussions.

*Then I come to the last point. The hon. member for Pretoria District raised a very interesting point here i.e. that the farmers and farming should become closer involved with the tourist industry. We already have a kind of register of farmers who are interested and to whom we are sending certain tourists from abroad. These tourists deeply appreciate what they see there. We are therefore working on this, and we are going to develop that aspect considerably yet. I can assure the hon. member that this is something which is important to me. Also I find it wonderful that the tourists from overseas are able to get acquainted with our excellent country people, and realize what real hospitality and friendliness mean.

May I ask the hon. the Minister a question? Is the hon. the Minister prepared to use the services of Mr. Steyn in Satour?

Then I have two more points to deal with. The hon. member for Orange Grove raised the question of a tourist guide book. Sir, we have a great number of publications coming out. We may perhaps not have an omnibus publication at the moment to cover the whole tourist trade in detail. That would be a very costly undertaking; it would have to be given out on quite a big scale. I will certainly discuss this with the department and with Satour, both of which are involved. I think the Hotel Board is also involved. Between us—and perhaps we can even bring in the provinces and the publicity associations—we will see what we can do. I think the time is arriving for us to consider some sort of single all-inclusive publication. We will look into the practicability of this.

Then I come to the last point, which was raised by the hon. member for Simonstown. The hon. member suggested that we should make use of the services of Mr. Vladimir Steyn who, he said, was one of the most experienced people in tourism in South Africa. I think he suggested specifically that we might put him on the board of Satour. Mr. Chairman, I do not want to go into this issue at this moment. As you know, Sir, there is a long history attached to this. Mr. Steyn was in the department. He is not in the department at the moment. It has not occurred to me that I should try to bring him back, either in the department or in Satour or somewhere else, and I think the hon. member for Simonstown would have to give me very compelling reasons to cause me to change my mind at this moment. But I do not want to go into that now; I will be happy to discuss it with him if he wants to pursue the matter.

You are wasting good time.

Sir, with these few thoughts I should like to thank hon. members very much for their contributions to this discussion. I did appreciate it. Finally I just want to thank the Secretary of my department, the Director of Satour and the other staff very much for their hard work in order to get our tourists industry to where it is today. I really feel that we will soon have a great industry here.

Vote agreed to.

The Committee reverted to Revenue Votes Nos. 4, 13, 16, 20, 21, 29, 39, 42, 44 and 45 of Schedule 1, Loan Votes C, J, K and P of Schedule 2 and S.W.A. Votes Nos. 6, 16 and 26 of Schedule 3.

Mr. Chairman, I move—

SCHEDULE 1.

(CHARGEABLE TO REVENUE ACCOUNT.)

SCHEDULE 2.

(CHARGEABLE TO LOAN ACCOUNT.)

SCHEDULE 3.

(CHARGEABLE TO SOUTH-WEST AFRICA ACCOUNT.)

SUMMARY

Amendment to Revenue Vote No. 13 (Defence):

Mr. Chairman, this Vote calls for an amount of R25 million as a contribution to the Defence Special Equipment Account and comprises well over half the total amount of R42 million which we are being asked to vote this afternoon. This is a large amount, in addition to a record Defence Budget, the largest that South Africa has ever had, getting close to R500 million. Although I appreciate that the hon. the Minister of Defence is not here but is enjoying a well-earned few days’ break in Europe, I hope that the hon. the Minister of Finance will be able to enlighten us on the need for this additional R25 million which brings our contribution to the Defence Special Equipment Fund to over R102 million this year. Until I have heard the explanation, I will leave the matter with the hon. the Minister of Finance.

Mr. Chairman, I am acting on behalf of my colleague, the Minister of Defence, while he is in Europe. [Interjection.] Unfortunately there is only small game to shoot over there! Sir, there are certain matters which cannot, of course, be discussed in public. I would very much like to give the Committee the information for which the hon. member asks, but I am afraid that it would not be in the public interest to do so. The hon. member has been dealing with defence matters over a period of many years, and he will realize that there are certain matters which must be treated as confidential. I would not mind giving the information to him personally, but I do not think it would be advisable to discuss this additional amount of R25 million across the floor of the House. I hope the hon. member will be satisfied with that.

Sir, the reply of the hon. the Minister of Transport, the Acting Minister of Defence, is of course quite understandable and acceptable in so far as it reflects the factual position. However, it reflects exactly the dilemma which we pointed out in the debate on the Main Vote, and that is the fact that it is not possible to discuss matters of this nature across the floor of tht House. I appreciate, and it would be irresponsible not to appreciate, that this sort of expenditure cannot be discussed openly but I believe that we cannot let this occasion pass without emphasizing the fact that unless we can create proper machinery for consultation and for co-operation between the Government and the Opposition we are not doing our job properly as Parliament by blithely voting an amount of R25 million as we do now. We are not going to object to it. We accept it. If the hon. the Minister could even have told us perhaps that this was because some equipment had come forward sooner than had been anticipated, or that new developments had taken place which required the unexpected placing of orders, it would have helped, but even then the hon. the Minister cannot give us this information because it would not be in the interests of the country. I therefore again take the opportunity to place on record the offer of this side of the House to co-operate in regard to matters of defence so that we can avoid the sort of situation which is highlighted by the Vote we are now being asked to pass.

I will convey the hon. member’s remarks to my colleague, the hon. the Minister of Defence.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendments to Revenue Vote No. 16 (Bantu Administration and Development) and S.W.A. Vote No. 6 (Bantu Administration and Development):

Under subhead H there is an increase of R1 200 000 for pensions and ex gratia assistance to needy Bantu. Could we perhaps know the reason for that?

Both this and the additional money voted, under the other Vote which the Chairman has mentioned, are for the same purpose. This arises from the announcement of the hon. the Minister of Finance in connection with the review of pensions, children’s allowances, foster parent allowances and all such social assistance that is now being increased. It represents an amount of R1,2 million which is needed for this. The amounts are now being increased by R9 and R12.

I wonder whether the hon. the Minister would please give us information regarding the additional amount of R1 000 to be added under subhead N, grant-in-aid to the S.A. Bantu Trust Fund. At the same time, can he give us any information at all as to why we should vote almost R2 million more under subhead O as payments for the Governments in the Bantu areas?

The R1 000 is required for the same purpose as that to which I referred in answer to the hon. member for Pinelands. It is in respect of pension increases to the Bantu in the Eastern Caprivi.

R1 000?

Yes, but it is only the additional amount, flowing from what the hon. the Minister of Finance announced during his Budget speech. Then, with regard to “O”, the supplementary amount is R1.96 million. That is in respect of the Bantu Governments in the Transkei, the Ciskei, Bophuthatswana, Lebowa, Venda, Kasamkulu, KwaZulu and Basotho-QwaQwa. It is all for the some purpose, but the hon. member will understand that in respect of old-age pensions, etc., the payments are undertaken by the Governments of the homelands concerned and the money is therefore voted under quite a different subhead.

I hope, Sir, you will allow me to revert to the first point which the hon. the Minister answered me upon, when he pointed out that under subhead H the increase of R1,2 million was in respect of pensions, ex gratia assistance, etc., to Bantu, and that it was largely explained by the fact that the amount of pension had been increased from R9 to R12 a month.

Children’s allowances.

Yes. You will appreciate, Sir, that the increase from R9 to R12 is appreciably greater than the increase from R15 million to R16 million in round figures. Would the hon. the Minister just give us a little more detail so that we can see how it ties up?

Mr. Chairman, it is in respect of pensions and ex gratia assistance being granted to needy Bantu under subhead H. As I have said, in his Budget Speech the hon. the Minister of Finance announced that these concessions to social pensioners and beneficiaries in terms of the Children’s Act would come into force from 1st October this year. He also indicated that these concessions are also being proposed for the non-Whites. These increases of social pensions and allowances in terms of the Children’s Act, as I have just said, respectively amount to R12 and R9 per person per year.

Mr. Chairman, is the hon. the Minister trying to tell us that the total amount of R3,186 million which we are being asked to vote now is made up in payments of pensions, ex gratia allowances, children’s allowances, etc., in terms of the increases announced by the hon. the Minister of Finance in his Budget Speech, or is there something else involved here? Can the hon. the Minister tell us what the position is? The reply which he has given seems to indicate that all four of these amounts are in respect of either increased pensions or increased allowances or in respect of subhead K for increased children’s allowances. Is it the position that this total of R3,186 million is for social services?

That amount is for pensions and children’s allowances.

All of that amount?

The amount of R1,2 million. This amount is in respect of pensions and children’s allowances paid out by my department in the White areas. This amount is not in respect of pensions and children’s allowances payable in the homelands.

But my question is in relation to the total amount of R3,186 million. Is all of it for social services?

Mr. Chairman, I shall give all the particulars. For pensions and ex gratia assistance to needy Bantu there is R1,2 million. This relates to subhead H.

What is the increase in that case?

The new amount is R12 in the case of pensions and R9 in the case of children’s allowances. Under subhead H there is also provision for child care, and for this an additional amount of R24 000 is being requested. Under subhead N—grant-in-aid to the South African Bantu Trust Fund—an additional R1 000 is being requested. I referred to that a while ago. In addition there is also subhead O.

The additional amount under subhead N also has to do with pensions, not so?

Yes. The Bantu Trust in turn gives it to the Caprivi authority for pension purposes. There is also an amount of R1,9 million that is intended for the Bantu Governments.

For pensions as well?

Yes, for the same purpose.

Amendments agreed to.

Amendment to Revenue Vote No. 20 (Commerce):

Mr. Chairman, I should like to ask the hon. the Minister if he would please give us the reason for the increase of R200 000 in respect of financial aid to trade missions to and from the Republic. Would he also explain the new item “Renting of warehouses by exporters for the storage of goods abroad”? Perhaps he could deal with those items first.

Mr. Chairman, these proposals, or the majority of them, arise from the recommendations of the Reynders Commission for the promotion of exports. I am under the impression that we have already covered this field fairly well, not only during the Budget debate, but also during discussion of my Vote. The hon. member asked me two questions. In the first place he asked a question about the addition of the amount of R200 000 for trade missions. At the moment there is an amount of R55 000 in the Estimates for trade missions. It was thought fit to give additional financing to selected trade missions. Consequently the amount of R55 000 will not be enough. I may add that this provision if not only intended for trade missions from South Africa, but also for importers of South African goods from other countries. They can obtain assistance in this way in cases where such missions to South Africa are approved by our overseas trade missions.

Next the hon. member spoke about the additional amount of R250 000 which is necessary for the renting of warehouses. Hon. members will understand that it is essential for exporters to keep their products overseas readily available. To meet those needs it is essential to rent warehouses overseas and to maintain them over there for the storage of goods, so that they may be made available there easily. As part of our whole endeavour to promote exports, it has been decided that assistance will also be granted for the renting of warehouses overseas so that exporters can store their products there more easily and can keep them there for provision to the people who buy from them. Provision is being made for an amount of R250 000 in that connection.

Under Vote 20, Item G, where additional expenditure amounting to R5 350 000 is to be voted, there is an item “Cost of electricity used for the refining of base minerals” for which an additional amount of R2 million is required. I wonder if the hon. the Minister would be good enough to enlighten the House as to the reason why this additional amount is in fact called for.

I think it is common cause with us that we should refine our minerals to a greater extent before we export them. It was felt that it would be an encouragement if we gave assistance to this refining process; in fact, I think that was one of the recommendations of the Reynders Commission. Thereby we could earn more with our refined minerals than we could otherwise do. Consequently provision is being made under this subhead for financial assistance for the use of electricity in the process of the refining of minerals. This applies specifically to minerals that are exported. Hon. members will understand that the use of electricity is a very big item in the expenditure connected with the refining of minerals. We trust that in this way we shall stimulate the refining of our minerals, particularly those that are exported.

Can the hon. the Minister tell us what minerals are contemplated in this allowance of R2 million for electricity which is to be used?

Specific minerals have not yet been determined, but the minerals which are being considered are the various ferous alloys the various forms of iron and steel which can be refined for export purposes.

Is the subsidizing of electricity for the refining of minerals being done on a percentage basis or on an ad hoc basis?

No, to begin with it is being done solely to promote exports. It is not for refining in general. In other words, it is not applicable to refining for South African use. Initially, therefore, this will only be for export purposes. In the case of exports, each separate case will be dealt with on merit, but the particular rules and regulations that will apply have not yet specifically been worked out. We suspect that with this little bit of help we shall be able to achieve quite a bit for the refining process in respect of promoting our exports.

Mr. Chairman, I would like to refer to the subhead “Compensation to the Railway Administration in respect of special railway tariffs for the transport of raw materials from the interior to export industries at the coast”. I would like to know whether the hon. the Minister could give us a little bit more information as to what raw materials he has in mind, as well as the background of this additional amount of R1 500 000 we are now being asked to vote.

Mr. Chairman, if hon. members look at page 132 of the Main Budget they will see that provision is made for an amount of R22 300 000 under the subhead “Compensation to the Railway Administration in respect of special export railway tariffs”.

Why is it then a new item here?

Sir, I know, but I just want to explain to you. Provision is already being made for that amount in the Budget, and it is intended for the promotion of exports, to help the exporters of products to get their products from the interior to the harbours. You will now also appreciate that there are certain manufacturers or industrialists who are situated in the harbour cities, who receive no help by way of this measure relating to railway transport as a result of the fact that they are situated in the harbour cities. Therefore it has been decided to help those industrialists, who are in the harbour cities and who could also possibly export, to also stimulate their exports, not by subsidizing them in respect of the transport of the products they manufacture, but to subsidize them in respect of the raw materials they need and which must come from the interior to their factories for the manufacturing of the products that must be exported at a later stage. The amount is now being increased for that purpose. Provision is now being made under this head for a further R1.5 million which is additional to the R22 300 000 in respect of railway tariff aid for which provision has already been made.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. the Minister, in reply to my first question, indicated that these matters had either been dealt with in the Budget or in discussions we have had on the Votes. I do not find this to be the case. I find the first and second items to be extensions of items which we have already dealt with in the House, but succeeding items for which supplementary amounts of R500 000, R250 000. R200 000, R200 000, R2 million and R1,5 million are to be voted appear to me to be new concepts to improve our exports—and I hope the hon. the Minister will please correct me if I am wrong. For example, with reference to the item he has just told us about: the original item in the Budget provided for help in respect of the export of goods fabricated in South Africa. Now there is an extension of that thinking; we are now going to help people who manufacture goods for export at the coast by giving them special railway tariffs for the transport of raw materials from the interior to the coast. The same applies in respect of all the other items. These are new concepts to help us to increase our exports of manufactured goods from South Africa. I just want to clear this with the hon. the Minister so that we have no misunderstandings. These are things that have only become apparent today. These are new facilities being given to exporters. I say this because I think it is important that the exporters should know these things. If we are going to say they are matters we have already dealt with, a lot of this new help and these new facilities will not become apparent to exporters. I would just like clarity on the general principle of these items from the hon. the Minister.

Mr. Chairman, that is quite correct. These items, or rather most of them, have not appeared before in the Estimates. Consequently we have not yet discussed them. All that I meant was that with the discussion of my Vote we had a detailed discussion on the recommendations of the Reynders Commission. I then mentioned that certain items already appeared in the Main Estimates, as printed. I also mentioned that additional assistance in respect of various items had been approved by the Government, and that provision would be made for certain expenditure. This is merely the implementation of what I said at the time, which is now appearing in the Supplementary Estimates.

Mr. Chairman, there is just one question I should like to put to the hon. the Minister. May one infer from the last item of R1,5 million that the Government has accepted the principle that since the Railways has to make sacrifices in the interests of the country the losses should be borne, not by the Railways, but by the Consolidated Revenue Fund? This is a very important principle which is in fact being applied here, and I would be pleased if the hon. the Minister would react to my question.

I think the hon. member ought to put this question to the Minister of Transport. The fact of the matter in this instance is that certain tariffs have been laid down by the Railways for the conveyance of specific products. If we want to stimulate the export of those products and we want to make a distinction between the same products which are being conveyed for internal consumption and those which are being conveyed to the coast for export purposes, we have to find some method or other of conveying those goods to the coast for export purposes more cheaply. That is all we are doing here. The Railways Administration does not see its way clear to making all these additional special concessions. Until recently special concessions were made by the Railways Administration, and it is in fact still the case today that certain reductions are allowed by the Railways Administration. But the Reynders Commission specifically recommended that to the extent to which the Railways Administration did not see its way clear to granting the necessary reductions in respect of export goods, the Government should make additional provision for that purpose.

Mr. Chairman, in regard to the expenditure in respect of joint market research abroad by industrial organizations, marketing boards and similar organizations—which amounts to R200 000 —I want to ask in the first place whether this amount is being determined on a percentage basis. Secondly, reference is made to “similar organizations”, and I should like to inquire what organizations are being referred to here.

Mr. Chairman, to begin with, these two items are in connection with market research. The first amount is for R200 000, and the second as well. The Reynders Commission made a recommendation in this respect as well, viz. that when market research is done abroad, 40% of the costs of such market research should be subsidized by the Government. The hon. member could imagine now that in certain cases— and for that reason there are two items— it is an individual enterprise doing such market research, while in other cases joint market research efforts are made by enterprises of a uniform kind. In that case provision is also being made now for a 40% subsidy in respect of such research. In this connection I want to mention the following particulars. It has to be collective market research by, inter alia, industrial organizations or agricultural marketing boards. It goes without saying that the amount is not unlimited, and that every application has to be considered on its own merits.

What are the “similar organizations”?

This is simply to make provision for something which cannot specifically be described here.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendments to Revenue Vote No. 21 (Industries) and Loan Vote J (Industries):

Mr. Chairman, Vote 21 calls for an additional amount of R301 000. Subhead H, “Miscellaneous Contributions, Grants-in-Aid and Subsidies”, makes up a third of the total. The specific item refers to an “interest subsidy in respect of loans to export industries” which amounts to R101 000. I wonder if the hon. the Minister would enlarge upon the need for this particular amount.

Mr. Chairman, in Loan Vote J of these supplementary estimates provision is being made for a loan amount of R3 million, which will be made available to the Industrial Development Corporation of South Africa, Limited, to finance with that money the expansion of industries or to finance new industries specifically intended for export purposes. This R3 million has been made available for that purpose, and the amount of R101 000 to which the hon. member referred is intended to subsidize the rates of interest on those loans, so that it will be possible for these industries for export purposes to obtain such loans more cheaply. In part the loans will be made available at a lower rate of interest by the IDC, and in part it will be subsidized from this R101 000, for which provision is now being made. Mr. Kitshoff made an announcement in this connection earlier this year, to the effect that the rate of interest payable will move on a sliding scale from, for example, 8,5% to 5%, depending on what percentage of the products to be manufactured in such a factory are going to be exported. In other words, if the percentage being exported is low, the rate of interest will be high; and if the percentage being exported is high, the rate of interest will be low. That is to say, rates of interest will move on a sliding scale and will be reduced as a greater percentage of the products of a factory or of the expansion of a particular factory financed in this way is exported.

Mr. Chairman, I want to ask the hon. the Minister why it has been necessary to introduce as a separate item this loan to the Industrial Development Corporation of R3 million for the development of export industries. Surely this should be a natural part of the activities of the Industrial Development Corporation? Their function is to assist established industries and to assist in the establishment of new industries, which they consider to be essential or necessary for the economic development of South Africa. This is the function of the IDC as it was originally contemplated. The aims of the corporation have expanded a little since those days, until today it covers practically everything. I am curious to know why we have to have a special item for the IDC to deal with the development of export industries. I would have thought that this was a part of its normal operations.

Mr. Chairman, I must agree with the hon. member that one would expect the IDC to make funds available for the expansion of industries from time to time as part of its normal operations. But, in regard to this special effort which is now being made to effect special expansion for the purposes of an increase in exports, because the interest rates are low, it surely goes without saying that one must now expect more funds to be required. It is because it is expected that the IDC will require more funds for financing that provision is now being made for this additional R3 million.

Mr. Chairman, in the past the IDC has, in regard to border industries, always loaned capital at inexpensive rates of interest, particularly with a view to exports. Is this amount now intended for the non-border industries? After all, an additional loan of R3 million to the IDC to promote exports in itself means nothing.

Mr. Chairman, this money is being made available for any industrial loan approved by the IDC. But surely it goes without saying—it is as clear as crystal —that, if we want to stimulate and promote our exports, we have to make money more cheaply available to industries as part of the process. Because one is making money more cheaply available, there is a greater demand for money. For that reason the IDC needs more money. It is as simple as that.

I think the hon. the Minister is on the wrong track here, Mr. Chairman. The amount of R101 000 in Vote No. 21 is completely understandable; he wants to lend money via the IDC, where the exporter will be able to borrow at a lower rate of interest, and to this we subscribe. But, Sir, the IDC gets globular sums from us from time to time. I think the hon. the Minister may run into trouble by segregating amounts specially for exports because under his Loan Vote he now has Head No. 6, which is specifically earmarked for the development of export industries. I do not see any reason for doing this. I think the hon. the Minister may be tying his own hands, because this sum of R3 million which is to be voted now is limited to the development of export industries. One would imagine that this presupposes that the other funds, which he already has at his disposal in the IDC, cannot be used for this purpose because you are now creating a new heading. I think the hon. the Minister may find that instead of expanding what he wants to do, by doing it this way, he is going to curtail what he wants to do.

Sir, the difference is this: The usual method by means of which money is made available to the IDC by the Government is by way of share capital which the Government takes up with the IDC. This money is being made available for this specific purpose by way of a loan; in other words, not as share capital which the Government pays into the IDC, but by way of a loan, and for that reason it consequently appears as a loan to the IDC, which in its turn makes the money available to the industries, but this money is in turn repayable by the IDC.

Amendments agreed to.

Amendments to Revenue Vote No. 29 (Social Welfare and Pensions) and S.W.A. Vote No. 16 (Social Welfare and Pensions):

Sir, here we are being asked to vote an additional amount of R4 822 million under various sub-heads. We are aware of the fact that the hon. the Minister of Finance indicated in the course of his Budget speech that some of these items would mean increases in certain pensions with effect from 1st October, 1973. I would like to ask the hon. the Deputy Minister of Social Welfare and Pensions whether these increases are all to be effective from 1st October, 1973. I refer here to the subhead “Child Welfare”, R744 000, and subhead R, “Care of the Aged and Infirm”, R23 000. I should like to know whether the increased per capita subsidies in respect of child welfare are to be effective from the 1st October, 1973, or whether they will come into operation with retrospective effect from the 1st April of this year. Sir, the other point which I would like to raise with the hon. the Deputy Minister is whether the means test applicable to the payment of these social pensions is to remain completely unaltered. I refer particularly to the income ceiling of R58 per month, which was imposed last year in view of the amount paid to civil pensioners and railway pensioners. I understand that an increase has been granted to both civil pensioners and railway pensioners, and I should like to know whether this income ceiling of R58 per month is to be reviewed, which would permit these higher amounts to be paid to a greater number of persons in receipt of these pensions.

Then under Vote No. 16, “South-West Africa”, provision is made under Item J, “General Welfare Services”, for a grant-in-aid of R85 000 to the Hardap disaster fund. I should like the hon. the Deputy Minister to give the Committee a little more detail with regard to this disaster fund, particularly with regard to the control of the fund. We would like to know by whom this fund is being administered and when it is anticipated that this fund will have met all its commitments.

With regard to the first question concerning the date, the answer is, yes, it is done on 1st October every year. This also to child welfare. Then with regard to the other question concerning the R58, the answer is that consideration is given from time to time to increasing that amount. This year there is no such increase, but it is being contemplated to effect another increase in the future. Then, with regard to the Hardap Fund, Sir, you will recall that it was a case where an amount was made available by the department and another amount by the public. It is a fund which is being handled by a committee that is under the control of the department.

Amendments agreed to.

Amendments to Revenue Vote No. 39 (Agricultural Economics and Marketing: General) and Loan Vote C (Agricultural Economics and Marketing):

I wonder whether the hon. the Minister would explain to us the reason for this amount being paid in interest, as well as the reasons for the loan to the Mealie Board.

Last year R16,2 million was paid over to the Equalization Fund for export losses. Overseas prices of maize have risen to such an extent that we did not suffer the losses originally estimated. This year, with the determination of the maize price, the Mealie Board had a proposition of a 50 cents deferred payment on last years’ crop. This would have meant that part of the Government’s contribution to the export loss last year would have to be used for a deferred payment, but the Government felt that this would not be the right thing to do. Part of that R16,2 million was used for a consumers’ subsidy and R10 million as an interest-free loan to the Mealie Board, in order to enable it to pay the 50 cents deferred payment to the farmers. This has brought about the R80 000 in interest and the loan of R10 million to the Equalization Fund of the Mealie Board.

Three years ago this Minister’s department also made a loan of R10 million to the sugar industry to get that industry out of the trouble it had got itself into. I believe that that amount has been repaid. Now I wonder whether the hon. the Minister can tell us whether there are any strings attached to this loan to the Mealie Industry Control Board. What are the terms of the loan and when does he expect it to be repaid?

There are no conditions attached to this. It all depends on what happens to the coming crop. It all depends on what happens to the industry on the export market, etc. The Government is always very sympathetic towards all the farmers. If they are in financial difficulty by that time we will reconsider the whole thing and I think we will have the sympathy of the hon. the Minister of Finance again. There is no definite condition attached to this but if export prices are good and the farmers can pay back the R10 million, they will pay it back at that stage. But I cannot compromise myself or the hon. the Minister of Finance at this stage.

Amendments agreed to.

Amendments to Revenue Vote No. 44 (Coloured Relations and Rehoboth Affairs) and S.W.A. Vote No. 26 (Coloured Relations and Rehoboth Affairs):

Here we have an increase of more than R2 million and I think the hon. the Minister should give us an explanation of this increase.

The supplementary amount, as the hon. member has said, is R2 351 000. This represents the increase of R2 per month in the pensions of all pensioners as well as an increase of R1-50 per month for children’s homes and foster parent allowances. Then, too, there has been a relaxation in the income ceiling. Previously it was R96; now it is R252. There we lose about R461 000. The first amount is R1 843 600 and the second R461 400. and then, too, there was another anomaly which we had to rectify. Since last year Indians have been paid R1-25 more in parent allowances than Coloureds. This year we want to rectify this by paying 50 cents more to Coloureds. This involves an amount of R46 000, and this gives one the total amount. As far as South-West Africa is concerned, it really amounts basically to the same thing. We have the foster parent allowances which are to be increased as from 1st October this year. This is really for Coloureds and Basters. As yet the Namas do not qualify for foster parent allowances. This, however, is something which will develop in the course of time. The amount required for foster parent allowances, is R2 000. Then, too, we have an amount of R50 000 made up of the increase in ordinary pensions of R2 per pensioner. In this instance the Namas receive R2-50 per pensioner because in their case there was a wide gap between their pensions and those of the Coloureds and Bantu. That gap is now being narrowed in that the Namas are receiving 50 cents more than the others. In the case of South-West Africa the total supplementary amount is R52 000.

Amendments agreed to.

Amendment to Revenue Vote No. 45 (Indian Affairs):

Mr. Chairman, I notice an entirely new item on the Supplementary Estimates and for which an amount of R100 000 is to be appropriated. I refer to subhead E and the item thereunder, “Contribution towards the re-erection of the Indian Market, Durban”. The hon. the Minister has already touched on this matter at an earlier stage this afternoon, but I wonder whether he will tell us a little more about this item. One knows that there is apparently a misunderstanding or difference of opinion between the mayor of Durban and the hon. the Minister as to precisely what was agreed upon in the hon. the Minister’s office in Cape Town. That is not something on which I can comment because I was not there, but according to a Press statement published on the 2nd June the hon. the Minister has agreed that this amount should come from the Government as a subsidy, and according to the White Paper before us, towards the re-erection of the Indian Market. So far as the White Paper is concerned, there is no mention of it being of a temporary structure, but according to the Press statement of the hon. the Minister, as he is therein reported, this money is intended to go towards the erection of a temporary structure. The hon. the Minister is reported as having said—

At first sight I would have thought, knowing that the Indian Market is, one might say, in the centre of Durban, that it would have been against Government policy to re-erect an institution of that kind on its present site. No doubt this was something which at first came to the minds of the city fathers in Durban. It appears, however, that either there was a change of policy in this regard or some circumstance which arose which constituted an exception in this case. A large sum of money is now going to be made available by the Government to re-erect an institution which was destroyed by fire and one would have thought that the institution was situated in a place where, according to Government policy, it should not have been situated. That is the first point. How is it that the hon. the Minister finds it possible to re-erect, even on a temporary basis, a market in this situation? Secondly, I wonder whether the hon. the Minister would tell the House a little more of what he has in mind in, as he says, finding an equitable and efficient permanent solution to this problem. Is it intended to explore the possibility of reerecting the Indian Market as a permanent structure on the same site or it it his intention to re-erect this as a permanent structure elsewhere? If so, what other site, what other venue, does he have in mind? Will the hon. the Minister tell us a little more about the intention under this subhead?

Mr. Chairman, I have to amplify —if that is the word—my statement of the other day on this issue. What happened was that the Indian Market which had been there for 63 years and which was an extremely important institution as the hon. member will know—an important institution not only to the Indian community since thousands of Indians were directly dependent on the Indian Market for their livelihood, but also for thousands of Whites, Bantu and other Indians who traded there —was burnt down overnight. I expected that the Durban City Council would immediately go into the matter and that they would provide some kind of facility to tide these people over until something better could be done in the long run. When it was reported to me after two weeks that the Durban City Council’s Policy and Finance Committee had decided not to do anything about it. I asked the Mayor to come down and see me. Great pressure was building up and not only from the side of the Indian community because many other people also got in touch with me about this matter; they wanted to know what was happening. I am still of the opinion that this is the responsibility of the Durban City Council. Here we have had the occurrence that a very important institution suddenly disappeared. It was not a charitable institution as the Durban City Council has been charging rent for the stalls they let out and some of those rentals were surprisingly high. Be that as it may, what is the policy? This is not a change of policy at all. I immediately said to the members of the Durban City Council who came to see me that I felt we had to do something to provide temporary facilities for these people so that they could get back into trade. If I remember correctly there were 261 stallholders in the old Market. After a great deal of discussion we finally got the Durban City Council to agree to co-operate to put something there. At that point, however, we had not decided on the exact venue. At any rate, we decided that facilities should be made available. The question arose how it would be financed and where it ought to be sited. In the first place the Durban City Council said they did not think they could provide the finance for the structure that was to be erected there. When I talk of a “structure” I talk in terms of a temporary structure, which I shall explain. I said that I would do my best to obtain financial assistance from the Government. Then the Durban City Council came back to me and said they would rather provide the finance themselves. I said: “Well, that is fine; let us get moving”. But after that they came back and said they were in financial difficulties and that they would have to call on us to do something about it. It was at that stage that I officially approached my colleague, the hon. the Minister of Finance. We were then able to go back to the Durban City Council and tell them that we, the Government, were prepared to make available R100 000 “without any strings attached”—the phrase used a few moments ago—to provide immediately for temporary facilities to allow the Indian traders, the stallholders, to get going again. The Durban City Council made it clear to me that they did not wish to be tied for more than two years. In the first instance they said that temporary facilities should only be provided for two years. They said that they were of the opinion that it was time the Indian community took steps to provide their own Indian Market as such. Then they said they would be prepared to agree to a period of three years, but not longer. Then I said: “What happens after three years if nothing else is available?” They simply said: “That building will then have to be pulled down”. In fact, they said that within two months of the expiry of that three year period that building would have to be pulled down. From the very start I emphatically said that I could not agree to that. I said that I could not agree to it that this temporary structure which we are aiming at as a matter of urgency—we have made available this R100 000 for this purpose—should be there for a fixed period. I had this difficulty: If we had not yet been able to provide what has been called the “permanent” solution within that time and the temporary structure was demolished, we would be back at square one and the Indians would have no market once more. Let me just say that the Durban City Council did build a wall to enable up to 50 stalls that had not been destroyed by the fire to go on trading with fresh produce such as meat, etc. That wall is in fact being used and has been used for some weeks. That required just a small alteration; it was a matter of closing up one wall to allow that section to be used again. The part I am referring to is where we are going to need at least 150, if not more stalls quickly, and that is the object of this item here. At no time could I agree to the other proposal. I mentioned this the other day because I really felt that this matter had come to a halt. I could not make out why the Durban City Council did not start to erect something. The Departments of Community Development and Public Works said they would give all the technical assistance they could; they were ready to go. The matter was raised by hon. members in this House upon which I made the statement I did. The Mayor of Durban has tended to attack me on this. He says I have changed my mind and that I agreed that this temporary structure would stand for only three years That is simply not so, and I have plenty of proof to back me up. My point is: What are we really arguing about? Let us rather provide that structure, because it is desperately needed. There are hundreds of people living on relief at the moment and are leading a very frugal life. I know the facts. I have stressed this to the Durban City Council at every stage. I set up a committee of representatives of the Departments of Indian Affairs and Community Development, the Durban City Council and the South African Indian Council and they have met many times. The representative of my department says that he is now inclined to throw up his hands as he just cannot get the Durban City Council to start. The money is there and all the technical assistance is there. There has also been a decision on the venue for these temporary facilities because the Mayor of Durban himself came to me a while ago and said that they had discussed this matter further and agreed that the temporary stalls should go up on the old market site, which I felt was the best solution under the circumstances. Provision is being made for a ring road which will make use of a certain portion of the old site, but it is not a big part; so that is not a problem, as the Mayor himself has said. I hope very much that the Durban City Council will start with this as soon as possible. They can start tomorrow; they really can. What of the long term? We have this committee and as soon as we can get started on the temporary structure, that committee will immediately go into action to consider the long-term solution for a proper, effective Indian market for the Indian community. They will consider what sort of structure it should be, where it should be placed and who should have stalls. I do not want to commit myself at all because of the fact that I am Minister of Indian Affairs. I have a very real interest in the well-being of these people, but with respect, it is not my responsibility, but I would not rule out the old Indian market site. On the other hand, I could not say that it will in fact be the venue. It is for this committee, consisting of all the parties concerned, to thrash out that question. I am quite sure that they will do so in a short time. Personally, I am absolutely sure that, with the co-operation we can expect, the whole question will have been thrashed out long before two years have elapsed; the whole problem of how to provide a proper market there, where to provide for it on what scale and how to finance it will all have been solved. But until we can do that, let us get on with these temporary facilities that are desperately needed; let us put them on the old market site, which the City Council has agreed to, and thereafter we will immediately tackle the problem of finding a long-term solution. As I say, I could not tell you now where the market will eventually be; all I can say is that, as I see it, it does not constitute a reversal of Government policy at all. I cannot see that point.

Mr. Chairman, the hon. the Minister has indicated certain reasons for the amount of R100 000 which is before us, but I was wondering whether the hon. the Minister could give some further information in regard to the next step to be taken, particularly in regard to the design of this temporary structure. The hon. the Minister has indicated that it will be a temporary building although the item before us only mentions the “re-erection of the Indian Market”. What are the plans for the design of this structure and who is to undertake the planning of this structure? I refer in particular to health regulations. As one is aware, the Indian Market is for the sale of foodstuffs and obviously many of those who have been affected by the destruction of this market have been deprived of their living. There are health regulations that have to be abided by and I was wondering whether the hon. the Minister could give us the assurance that the various health regulations will be complied with by the temporary structure which is, evidently, to be designed and erected on part of the site where the old market had stood.

Then there is the question of the siting of a future Indian Market. The hon. the Minister has indicated that a committee will study the long-term aspects of this matter. The point that was made by my friend the hon. member for Zululand, was really to ascertain from the hon. the Minister whether he is opposed to or in favour of the re-erection of this market on the existing site. I think this is the kernel of the point which was raised as far as this particular item of R100 000 is concerned. I hope that the hon. the Minister can give this additional information in regard to the reerection of the Indian Market.

Mr. Chairman, I will gladly do so. The chairman of that ad hoc committee, Mr. Van Eyssen, who is the regional representative of the Department of Indian Affairs in Natal, has informed me more than once that the health aspect of the structure has been very carefully discussed. He has informed me that there has been complete agreement amongst the four parties. I cannot give the precise details, because I do not think it is necessary to do so, but I can give the hon. member the assurance that that has been discussed and that agreement has been reached with all the parties concerned The design of this structure has also been discussed. In this respect we are really dependent upon the Durban Corporation, but the departments of Public Works and of Community Development have offered to assist. Their representative is there and is taking part in the discussions. I am told that there are no particular problems in this regard at all. I can also say that the way in which this was discussed, the Durban Corporation would get this structure erected, while the Department of Community Development will keep an eve on the specifications and will naturally have to satisfy the governmental authorities that the proper specifications are measured up to. The whole thing has been tackled by that committee on a very constructive basis and I am impressed by the way it is being done. Those points have definitely been dealt with.

Will the R100 000 cover the cost of the whole construction?

Yes. The last time I discussed this with my representative there, he said it might just be possible that there will be a slight saving. At any rate, it is well understood that that is the limit and the committee is satisfied that they can put up a very workable structure for that amount.

The second point was the question of the venue. I really do not want to compromise anybody by stating any preference I may or may not have, because I specifically asked those four bodies each to appoint a representative on that committee. We have this excellent little committee and I have asked them to look at this matter quite objectively and to go into all the aspects. There are various possibilities. One possibility must obviously be the old site. Another possibility is somewhere in the general area of what is called the Grey Street commercial area for Indians. Another possibility, which I would not rule out, is Chatsworth. So there are various possibilities, but I do not think it right that I myself should go into that. I would rather that the Durban City Council, the Indian Council and the two departments, who are very competently represented, thrash it out fully and objectively. They can then inform us what their recommendation in this regard is. That is really as far as I can take this point.

Mr. Chairman, firstly I would like to thank the hon. the Minister for the full reply he has given to the questions put to him. However, under subheads N and O there are two amounts of R419 000 and R357 000 respectively, to be added to the amount required for war veterans’, blind persons’ and old age pensions and disability grants, as well as for child welfare. I know that the hon. the Minister will give me the same answer as the other Ministers have given regarding the provisions of the Budget, but I wonder if the hon. the Minister can give us a little more detail. For example, by how much have these pensions been increased, and, regarding child welfare, what is the amount of R357 000 in respect of?

Mr. Chairman, I have the breakdown here, in Afrikaans. It reads as follows—

This adds up to a total of R419 000. The amount of R357 000 is constituted as follows under the heading “Child Welfare.” The break-down reads as follows—

This adds up to the total of R357 000. I hope that this breakdown will suffice. If the hon. member wants the precise details, I shall have to furnish them to him.

Mr. Chairman, I thank the hon. the Minister. Is it possible for him to give this Committee any idea of the monthly increase in pension an Indian person can assume he will receive? I believe that these pensions will only be increased from the 1st October. I assume that it will happen in exactly the same way as is the case with other old-age pensions. Can the hon. the Minister also tell us what the increase per child, with regard to the children’s allowance, is going to be? I am referring to this amount of R354 600 which is being granted.

Mr. Chairman, the overall increase is going to be about 10%, but the actual details I do not have in front of me

Can the Minister not tell us from what amount to what amount it will be increased?

No.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment to Loan Vote K (Community Development):

Mr. Chairman, this is a new item. Would the hon. the Minister be good enough to explain the subhead “Contribution to Deposit Fund for Housing” against which this amount appears? In other words, what is the purpose of this amount of R4 million?

Mr. Chairman, this provision has become necessary as a result of the amendment to the Building Societies Act and relates to the house-ownership scheme for public servants. To date the position has been that my department guarantees 20% of the building society loan. As a result of the amendment effected, my department may now only guarantee 10%, and the remaining 10% must be deposited with the building society. As regards the interest earned on that investment this is a matter which will be mutually agreed upon by the building society and my department.

Sir, I thank the hon. the Minister for his explanation. The first point which arises and which, as he has indicated, has not been settled yet, is the rate of interest which will be paid on this cash deposit with the building societies. The second question is whether this deposit is to be effective in regard to existing State-employee housing assistance, or is this to provide for additional and new housing assistance for State employees?

As I have indicated, the rates of interest will only be determined, in consultation with the building societies, when the deposits are made. It will naturally have to be a long-term investment, and as a result the rates of interest will have to be calculated on the basis of that long term. I am under the impression that this will apply in respect of all new house-ownership schemes which are tackled. I do not think that this could be made of retrospective effect with regard to existing schemes.

Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the hon. the Minister whether he raised an objection to the provision in the new Bill, in terms of which the guarantee of the Government will no longer be acceptable? In terms of the Bill, as the hon. the Minister has just told us, the guarantee of the Government will no longer be accepted as part of the 20% above the 80%, and the Government itself has now got to provide the actual cash, for which it is asking here. I want to know from the hon. the Minister whether he objected to this provision of the new Bill, because if he had objected, he would not have had to provide this cash and the guarantee of the Government would still have been accepted. I think it is quite wrong to have a situation where the guarantee of the Government of South Africa cannot be accepted, and where the Government is required to deposit actual cash with the building societies. When we come to deal with the Bill, we will raise the matter there, but here the Government is involved in that it has to provide additional funds. I am surprised that the hon. the Minister of Finance allowed it, because he now has to use the money which he takes from us and give it to the building societies when the guarantee of the Government should have been equally good.

I cannot see how the hon. member for Parktown can expect of me to have raised objections. It is the Department of Finance which must provide the funds and the Department of Finance effected the amendment to the Act.

Sir, then I address my remarks to the hon. the Minister of Finance. I am surprised that he should have allowed this situation to arise where the guarantee of the Government is not acceptable and where he now has to deposit actual cash with the building societies.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment to Loan Vote P (Mines):

I notice from the main Estimates that provision was made to finance the Randfontein Estates in the form of a loan to the tune of R8 million. In the previous year provision was made for R1 849 000, and in the current Estimates provision is being made for R1,8 million, a little bit less. I should like to know what the reasons are for having to vote a total of R2,11 million more than was originally estimated.

Sir, as a result of the increase in the price of gold, this mining company naturally wants to reach the production stage as soon as possible. The Cooke section of Randfontein Estates gold mines is involved here. In order to enable the company to begin immediately with a new No. 2 shaft system, its programme has now been advanced by two years and it has applied for the full loan of R8 million to be made available to it now. We took up the matter with the Department of Finance and because the mine, the country and the State all profit thereby, the Department of Finance approved of this amount of R2,11 million being made available to them immediately.

Does the hon. the Minister feel satisfied that the money can be satisfactorily spent in the coming year? Will it not be beyond their powers to spend all this money?

Yes, without any shadow of a doubt. The Chief Mining Engineer has given a report on this and we are convinced that they will be able to spend this money, otherwise we would not have allotted it to them.

Amendment agreed to.

Schedules, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses and Title agreed to.

House Resumed:

Bill reported with amendments.

Report Stage taken without debate.

Mr. Speaker, with your permission I should like to make a statement. I regret having to make another statement, but this is the only opportunity of coming to this House with a matter of such an urgent nature.

In my statement of 18th March, 1973, in which the position of the South African rand in a world of floating exchange rates was reviewed. I announced that it had been decided to maintain the existing par value of the rand in terms of gold, and that the Reserve Bank would continue to quote the same fixed buying and selling rates for U.S.A. dollars as had been in use since the dollar devaluation of February, 1973. I also pointed out, however, that should the E.E.C. currency units appreciate more as against the U.S.A. dollar than was generally expected at that time, South Africa would have to reassess its position.

Since then, and especially during the last two weeks, most of the currencies have appreciated against the U.S.A. dollar to such an extent that the dollar is quoted at present at a level nearly 5% below sterling and between 4 and 6% below most other Western European currency units compared with the position on 19th March, 1973. Should South Africa continue to maintain its existing buying and selling rates for the U.S.A. dollar, it will thus imply that the rand has also since the middle of March, 1973, depreciated to the same extent as the dollar compared with the currencies referred to. Compared with all foreign currency units this will mean an average effective depreciation of the rand of between 2 and 3% since the middle of March.

Such a depreciation of the rand in present-day circumstances is not considered desirable. The balance of payments of the country is still very favourable and the gold and other foreign assets held by the Reserve Bank increased from 16th March by approximately a further R100 million and have now reached the satisfactory level of about R1 200 million. The total official reserves approximate today R1 350 million, which represent a record level. In this respect it is of particular significance that the price of gold on the private market has risen from about 82 dollars per fine ounce towards the middle of March, 1973, to about 120 dollars per fine ounce at present, that is by about 46%.

In this way South Africa’s underlying balance of payments position has been appreciably strengthened. From the point of view of the balance of payments a depreciation of the rand is now thus neither necessary nor welcome.

From the point of view of containing inflation such a depreciation would also have an undesirable effect. It would, in fact, result in import prices expressed in rand rising, which would tend to accelerate the rate of increase in the consumer price index or counteract a declining tendency therein.

In view of the above it has been decided that the Reserve Bank will, as from tomorrow, Tuesday 5th June, 1973, quote new buying and selling rates for the U.S.A. dollar which will amount to an appreciation of the rand against the dollar by about 5%. The gold parity of the rand remains unchanged, however, at R29,75 per fine ounce. The aforementioned exchange rate adjustment means, therefore, that for the present the rate of exchange of the rand with the U.S.A. dollar will not be maintained within the permissible margins around the gold parity exchange rate. The International Monetary Fund has already been notified accordingly.

As against all foreign currencies, this step will bring about an average effective appreciation of the rand of between 2 and 3% as compared with the position on 19th March. In determining the extent of the appreciation account was taken, not only of the recent movements in the exchange rates of the U.S.A. dollar as against other currencies, but also of the disinflationary effect which this step should have.

Mr. Speaker, I move—

Agreed to.

Mr. Speaker, I move—

I should like to explain this motion more fully. The recommendations of the Select Committee which we are considering at the moment, deal with the declaration of additional released areas in Natal and the eastern and northern parts of the Transvaal. The designation of the remaining land which we still owe under the quotas of 1936 and, together with that, the consolidation of Bantu areas are matters which I have tried to tackle systematically over the past few years. As early as at the beginning of the year 1971 I explained my ideas to the Cabinet, i.e. to declare the relevant released areas in all the provinces, by which means we would be able to promote consolidation and designate those areas out of which we had to obtain the amount of land which was due and which was still outstanding under the quota and had to be added to Bantu land. Even at that stage I was already planning that we would do the Ciskeian areas in 1972. We succeeded in doing that. I also planned that the rest of the areas in South Africa—i.e. the areas in Natal, the Transvaal and the Northern Cape—would be done in 1973. Relatively speaking, I have also succeeded in doing that, for all the reports dealing with these areas have already been submitted to Parliament and referred to the Select Committee on Bantu Affairs. This report of the Select Committee does therefore contain recommendations arising from those reports.

This was a gigantic task to perform. I am very grateful that up to now we have been able to work up to this stage according to the planning programme I drew up in 1971. In this regard I owe a debt of gratitude to many bodies and persons, and I should like to mention them. In the first place, I mention the Department of Bantu Administration and Development, in which certain officials, whose names I want to mention, distinguished themselves by the over-exacting work they did. In fact, this work was so over-exacting that one of them collapsed this morning and is unable to attend this debate for which he has been preparing himself for three years. I mention the Secretary for Bantu Administration and Development, Mr. Van Onselen. Next I mention Mr. Pepler, who has just retired from the service of the department, Mr. van Wyk and Mr. Pienaar. There are other officials who have also been involved in the matter, but I cannot mention the names of all of them now. These are the people in my department who had to shoulder this gigantic task of making recommendations. Indeed they have performed epoch-making work. In the second place, I mention the Bantu Affairs Commission under the chairmanship of an hon. member of this House, Mr. Piet van Vuuren, and his colleagues who are also hon. members of this House, namely Messrs. G. P. van den Berg and H. J. Botha. The Bantu Affairs Commission also has another member who is not a member of this House, namely Dr. Lombard of Pretoria. In the third place, I mention the agricultural unions and the district agricultural unions in Natal and the Transvaal, with which, over a long period, we had many deliberations both in camera and in public and conducted a lengthy correspondence. All of them have co-operated with us to such an extent that we have now been able to come up with a scheme, even if they do not agree with everything on which we have decided. Then I want to mention other bodies, such as local authorities, development or planning committees, and so forth. I also want to mention individual hon. members of the House of Assembly and the Senate who were in touch with the Deputy Minister, the departmental officials and me in this regard. I want to say that members, not only on my side of the House but also on the other side of the House, spoke to me personally, to the Deputy Minister and also to others about proposals and ideas in this regard. To those hon. members, too, I express my thanks for what they were able to contribute in a constructive manner, and I express my regret at the request to which I could not accede. I want to repeat here in this House that we consulted each of the various homeland governments on these plans at various times and on various levels, and that in their case we were also able to give satisfaction in certain respects whereas in other respects we were unable to do so; after all, this is only human. Finally I want to thank the Select Committee which did this work for us. I find it a pity that some of the members of the Select Committee refused to avail themselves of the opportunity of making constructive proposals, but I want to convey my thanks to the committee as such. I can give hon. members the assurance that over a period of a number of years exhaustive, searching and lengthy deliberations took place on these proposals which are before the House today. There were more deliberations on these proposals than there had ever been on land matters in respect of the Bantu since 1936. I myself insisted that consultation had to take place on this scale, and I myself had to take part in and be present at these consultations until as recently as this morning.

The reasons for this large-scale declaration of released areas are mainly, stated in broad outline, of a twofold nature. Firstly, a systematic purchase has to be effected of the remainder of the land which we still owe, and at the same time we want to promote the consolidation of Bantu areas in that way. Secondly, this is being done in order that all concerned—bodies, individuals, Bantu governments, and so forth— may be notified as well in advance as possible of what land we propose to purchase in the years ahead for the South African Bantu Trust and therefore, in due course, for the Bantu governments as well. The ideal was of course, at its best, to obtain one single territory for every homeland. That is the ideal. We all strive after ideals, but it may not always be possible for us to attain them. The second best would then be to acquire as few scattered areas as possible in the proposals which are before us. I hope that we, having had regard to practical considerations, have accomplished this by way of these proposals which are before us.

There are many practical considerations to which we must have regard, and I want to mention them cursorily. I want to mention to hon. members that my department, the Government and I have to give attention to the whole country, and that this is not a matter of one single district or one single region in a province to which we must give our attention. If it had only been a matter of one single district or one single region, we would perhaps have been able to put forward far more idealistic proposals. Because this work involved the whole country in these times in which everything, but especially land, is very expensive, we must realize that, for the purposes of the proposals to be submitted to this House, we could not consider excessively expensive and idealistic plans in one single place, in one single region or province. Secondly, I want to mention that there are many Whites who will have to be uprooted from the land to which they have grown very attached, and that there will also be many Bantu, even more than in the case of the Whites, who will have to be moved from places where they have been living for a long time. What is more, and this makes it much more difficult than it will be in the case of the Whites, the Bantu will as far as possible have to be moved from the old places to the new places in their tribally orientated units. For that reason we have had to be very careful with removals. That is why we must try to avoid, where possible, the removals of these groups of people, and that is why we cannot simply split up such groups in two. It is very easy to effect a removal on paper, to draw a line and then to say that the one group are going to stay in that area and that the rest are going to be removed. If one were to do that, one could very easily cut a tribe in half, and then one would rule out the possibility of any co-operation every being obtained from them.

I mention to you, thirdly, that the released areas of the principal Act of 1936 only refer to the provinces, namely what is to be ceded by Whites in every province. This complicated the matter a great deal in so far as we had to take into account each of the various peoples and their homelands. The Act does not refer to the peoples and does not lay down how much land the Xhosa, the Zulu, the Venda, and so forth, are to be granted. Therefore, in these consolidation efforts and in the acquisition of land, we ourselves had to apply a criterion in terms of which we could ensure that justice was done as far as possible to each of the Bantu homelands and peoples. If we did not have to look after the peoples individually, it would perhaps have been much easier if, for instance, in a province such as the Transvaal, where there are several peoples, we could simply plump down in one direction all the land which they have to be granted. However, that would be very unfair. I mention to you, Sir, a further very important practical consideration which we must take into consideration and which did of course have an inhibiting effect, namely that unfortunately South Africa only has limited financial means as far as the implications of the acquisition of land are concerned. For that reason I could not simply decide on plans which appear to be grandiose, which are beautiful and idealistic, but which are very expensive. A case in point would have been to declare a town like Pietersburg, for instance, which in terms of municipal valuations alone is worth more than R100 million, to be a Black town. The same would of course apply to Mafeking.

I mention to you another last important practical consideration which we have had to take into account, namely that only a limited number of morgen of land may be added to the 1936 promise. For that reason too, in addition to the cost aspects, it was not possible simply to cede large tracts of land. For instance, certain very fine, idealistic proposals were submitted to me, proposals which looked splendid on paper, but the people concerned were in fact honest enough—these are well-meaning people— to warn us that their proposals involved much more land than was authorized by the 1936 Act. In such cases I can only say, “Oh, what a pity! I cannot do that, for I may not go beyond the limits of that Act.”

I should like to explain a number of specific matters in regard to these proposals. I think that these proposals ought to be very clear; they have laid on the Table of this House long enough for everybody to have been able to study them properly. I want to deal first with the specific aspects which I want to bring to your attention in respect of Natal. Up in the north, adjoining the border with Mozambique, lies the Ndumu Nature and Game Reserve. The proposal which we hope will be adopted in this House is that that Ndumu Reserve will become Bantu territory. However, the Government’s standpoint is that this must remain a nature reserve and that it will also have to be controlled as such. We shall conduct negotiations on this matter with the relevant Bantu government when this area will come under its jurisdiction. Whether this is to be controlled by the Government itself or by others on behalf of the Government, are matters which we shall investigate then, as soon as it becomes my department’s responsibility.

I mention to you a second area, which goes with the aforementioned area and which is also situated in the north, i.e. Kosi Bay and the reserve situated along the east coast in the north, which will remain Bantu territory. There, too, we shall see to the necessary conservation of nature and marine life, which we know to be a very important matter there. Thirdly, I want to mention to you the very important Umfolozi and the Hluhluwe Nature Reserves and Game Park. The Government has decided that Hluhluwe and Umfolozi plus a portion of the corridor, the area between these two reserves, should remain in the hands of the White authority, that it may therefore continue to exist as a game park and that the Natal Parks Board will have control over it. You will notice from the proposals that a small piece of land situated to the north of the Umfolozi Reserve, which, I think, used to be Bantu territory, is now being taken back. This is a small strip of land which, in essence, does not affect the Umfolozi Reserve adversely, especially not if one considers that it will in fact be possible for a large portion of the corridor, of which we are also holding back a small piece of land for the Bantu, to be transferred to the Parks Board in order that it may administer the three areas as a unit. Then I also want to mention specifically, in respect of Natal, the question of the coastal resorts of Umgababa and Turton, in regard to which I also heard personal representations made by hon. members on both sides of the House, whose names I do not want to mention now. In regard to these two coastal resorts we very honestly and sincerely feel that it would be unfair for those two narrow strips along the coast, which belong to the Zulu, to be turned into White areas, as was suggested by some people, and for the Zulu to be deprived of them. For that reason they are going to remain Bantu territory.

Then I also want to mention the position of Kwa Mashu. Kwa Mashu is not covered in these proposals. We announced a long time ago that it was the intention to incorporate Kwa Mashu with the KwaZulu Bantu homeland, and this is still the intention. However, it was not included here because problems had been experienced in finishing the surveys in time. In any case, this can easily be done at a later stage, which is in fact the intention.

In regard to the specific matters mentioned in this report I just want to refer, as far as the Transvaal is concerned, to the fact that the necessary process of expropriation is already in progress as regards the Letaba Ranch, a game reserve which was used by private persons and which we decided should also be incorporated because it is suitable for the purpose of settling Bantu. Actually, this reserve was offered to us by the owners on a previous occasion.

Then there is something I should like to say here in general. I am doing so with reference to inquiries that I have received. In cases where there are White areas which will now be declared released areas and will become Bantu areas, and in which prospecting operations, such as mining operations, are in progress, I want to give the assurance here that the concessionaries who have concessions there may continue with those operations even if those White areas are now becoming Bantu areas. As regards the property rights which may be held by White entrepreneurs developing those mines, these may be taken over from them in due course. However, as far as the mineral rights and the mining of minerals are concerned, we shall allow these to continue undisturbed, also in cases where these mineral rights may perhaps be held by individual White entrepreneurs themselves. We shall not interfere with such rights. In fact, we should like them to continue as they have been exercised there up to now.

I also want to point out in general that there may be internal adjustments among various Bantu peoples; for instance, in the Transvaal areas where one may find North Sotho, Shangaan, Venda and Swazi all living in the same areas. There will have to be border adjustments among these groups, but these are not matters which need be submitted to Parliament, and for that reason I merely mention them here for the sake of completeness.

Since I have referred to the mineral rights, I may perhaps just say that the same will also apply in respect of forestry operations and certain forms of cultivation, such as sugar cultivation, which are in progress in certain areas and which will now be transferred to the Bantu. This is our standpoint, and we shall do everything in our power to ensure that those operations are maintained and that they will not be destroyed.

I just want to remind the House that if one looks at the minutes of the Select Committee, one will see that there are certain recommendations which were made by the Select Committee but which were not incorporated in this report. These recommendations are that certain areas stand over for further investigation. For instance, the Select Committee recommended that further investigations be instituted by my department in regard to certain areas in Natal, the three reserves, namely Reserve No. 1, Reserve No. 2 on the slopes of the Drakensberg mountains and also the Upper Tugela Reserve, as well as the other land connected therewith in the Makatini Flats and the small Reserve No. 13, near the Pongola River. I accept that recommendation as it stands and I am quite prepared to give effect to it, because I feel that people who may be of the opinion that they have not expressed their views on this matter clearly enough, should be afforded an opportunity of expressing their views to me now. However, it must be realized very well that all the possibilities are being kept open in regard to the land of those three reserves. They can remain as they are at the moment, they can be consolidated into a unit or all three of them can be moved depending on what we may bring to light through further investigations. In the same way the Select Committee recommended that the six farms proposed to be taken over in the Eastern Transvaal from the Sabie-Sand Private Game Reserve in exchange for the small reserve near the Blyderivier Poort, which we call the Dinkie Reserve, should stand over for further investigation pursuant to representations received by the department. I also accept that recommendation as it stands. In respect of this recommendation, too, I say that all possibilities are remaining open. It should also be realized very well that we need land for settlement purposes and that we cannot simply move the peoples involved arbitrarily, left and right. We shall have to take a very close look at these particulars.

In looking at these proposals, we will realize that, as I said a moment ago, the ideal of having one single area for each homeland could not be achieved in all cases. There are areas, such as in Natal and the North-Eastern Transvaal, where a Bantu homeland consists of several separate areas. This will require a practical approach to reality on the part of the Bantu as well as the Whites. Both White and Bantu will have to respect and acknowledge mutually the principle of good neighbourliness, just as we have to respect and acknowledge one another in many other ways, and will have to help one another on the basis of inter-dependence. For instance, we shall have to help them by allowing them to drive through our areas to another area of theirs, and they will have to help us by allowing us to drive through their areas to another area of ours. There will have to be agreements on matters such as telegraph, railway and electricity lines, national roads and the use of rivers in those cases where these things serve both groups. As I have said in this House before, this is a matter which does not necessarily hold major dangers for us, as is often maintained by many people, but which imposes on the White group as well as the Bantu group in question the duty of co-operating with each other and tolerating each other. In other words, to see eye to eye with each other in regard to those matters implies security for both groups.

I should like to take this opportunity to say to the Bantu homeland governments, with a view to the demands that have been made by so many of them, that they should please be realistic and realize what things are possible for this Government, that they should accept the large pieces of land which they are being granted and which we are now offering to them, and that they should accept that the moving of the reserves and Black spots will bring about better administration for them.

This Government and the White community are making major sacrifices. Hundreds of millions of rands are required for the purchase of land which will then be handed over to the Bantu governments free of charge. Compensation is required for Bantu moving away. Services are required at the new places to which they are moving. All of these are gifts made by this Government to the Bantu governments. We hope that those Bantu who will have to move, and their governments, will assist with the necessary services that will have to be provided in the places under the jurisdiction of that government, and that the additional land which they are being granted will be looked after and utilized well.

Sir. I am racing against the clock and I would be pleased if you would forget to watch it for a few minutes and so make it possible for me to finish. The implementation of this planning is very important, and it will make major demands on all of us, as I have said, in respect of funds, convenience and labour. It will not be possible for all the Whites whose land is situated in the new released areas to sell their land to us at the same time. There will have to be priorities. Farmers should therefore carry on and accept that their properties will in due course be purchased at valuation. It will interest everybody to know that this Government is at present giving consideration to the possibility of devising methods whereby it will be possible to effect the acquisition of all the land over a much shorter period than was the case in terms of the method followed in the past. In this regard we shall, I hope, be able to make the necessary announcements at a convenient time.

Sir, I ask you to be so kind as to allow me just a few more moments. I must point out that in Natal and in the Transvaal a limited number of hectares of the quota are in each case being held in reserve by us for essential purchases which may become necessary in due course, because it is after all impossible for one to foresee all the eventualities. Such purchases will of course be of a limited nature and the land will of course border on the existing Bantu areas or the released areas. For your information, Sir approximately 30 000 ha and 50 000 ha are being held in reserve in Natal and in the Transvaal, respectively. Mr. Speaker, as things have turned out, it has after all not been necessary for you to ignore the clock. I thank you.