FRIDAY, 13 JUNE 2003 __

                PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
                                ____

The House met at 9:05.

The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000.

                        SADF RAID IN BOTSWANA

(Member’s Statement)

Ms M P MENTOR (ANC): Madam Speaker, on 14 June 1985 the apartheid security forces illegally invaded Botswana. Their mission was to hunt down and murder patriotic South African members of the ANC and combatants of Umkhonto weSizwe. Ten patriots fell during that attack.

As part of the 18th commemoration of the SADF raid in Botswana a wreath laying ceremony will take place on 14 June 2003 in Gaborone. These activities are organised in honour of those heroes and heroines who paid the ultimate price for the liberation of our country. As we remember this sad day in our history we will also recall other countless murders and assassinations carried out by the colonial apartheid state against the majority of South Africa’s citizens. We will recognise that the blood of these combatants nourished the tree of freedom. We will use this solemn occasion to rededicate ourselves to the cause of building a truly democratic, nonracial, nonsexist and prosperous country. And as we do so, we will continue to say never again. Thank you. [Applause.]

                   40 YEARS OF DESTRUCTIVE NP RULE

                        (Member's Statement)

Mr W J SEREMANE (DA): Madam Speaker, a reflection on healthy political banter and the abuse thereof; The New NP is in danger of abusing their Damascus road experience and endangering reconciliation and forgiveness in South Africa following 40 years of destructive NP rule. We, the former prisoners and victims of the Nationalists, find it strange to be lectured on democracy, justice, verligtheid'' [liberalism] andverkramptheid’’ [conservatism] by the architects and disciples of the abominable apartheid ideology.

We are ready to forgive, reconcile and build a new society different from the one the apartheid regime forced on South Africa. Note the serious and sensitive work to be done to nurture our young democracy to heal the hurts and hate of yesterday. But the New NP must remember that peace, justice and reconciliation do not come cheaply. We must be sincere and responsible in the way we behave. [Interjections.]

Their cheap shots and outright hypocrisy insult the goodwill of South Africans and threaten to destroy what we are building. Ours is a long journey which can only be undertaken by those who believe in the destination. I thank you.

                    E-SCHOOL INITIATIVE LAUNCHED

                        (Member's Statement)

Prince N E ZULU (IFP): Madam Speaker, an e-school initiative has been launched under the aegis of the New Partnership for Africa’s Development at the World Economic Forum, Africa’s economic summit in Durban. The initiative is aimed at bridging the digital divide between Africa and the developed world by bringing computer literacy into African schools.

Literacy in information technology cannot be overemphasised in this day and age of globalisation. Seminars can now be held through teleconferencing and patients can receive international health treatment through telemedicine through which medical experts can share information and advise each other on patient diagnosis. We appreciate this initiative as it will equip all learners with invaluable skills which will empower them in their adult and employment life to compete with the necessary leverage in the local and international job market. I thank you.

                THE DEMAND FOR CRIME STATISTICS BY DA

                        (Member's Statement)

Mr M E GEORGE (ANC): Madam Speaker, the ANC notes with disgust the blatant opportunism displayed by the DA, led by the hon Douglas Gibson when they marched to Minister Nqakula’s office demanding crime statistics. The demand for these statistics is a ploy by the DA to score cheap political points and is driven by electioneering on the eve of the third democratic elections. They are not committed to the battle of fighting crime. The problem of crime confronts all South Africans, especially the poor whom the DA does not represent.

The ANC Government and the people of South Africa have built partnerships and are achieving success in fighting this battle. The ANC calls on the DA to desist from its practice of seeking to score cheap political points out of the hardships of our people and to join the partnership of fighting crime and poverty in our country. I thank you. [Applause.]

                     REDUCTION OF INTEREST RATES

                        (Member's Statement)

Dr W A ODENDAAL (Nuwe NP): Agb Mevrou die Speaker, die Nuwe NP is van oordeel dat alle ekonomiese aanwysers, sowel as die fout deur Statistiek SA met die berekening van die verbruikersprysindeks, daarop gedui het dat die Suid-Afrikaanse Reserwebank die repokoers oor die korttermyn met ‘n volle twee persentasiepunte moes verlaag. Omdat so ‘n relatiewe groot eensklapse sprong egter onnodige onstabiliteit in die finansiële markte kon veroorsaak, is ons tevrede met die verlaging van 150 basispunte waarop die bank besluit het.

Die Nuwe NP is egter van mening dat ‘n verdere verlaging van minstens 100 basispunte in die repokoers voor die einde van Augustus 2003 noodsaaklik is, om die onlangse verlangsaming in die Suid-Afrikaanse ekonomiese groeikoers teen te werk en die rentelas waaronder veral jonger Suid- Afrikaners wat nog skuld het, gebuk moet gaan, verder te verlig. ‘n Verdere geleidelike verlaging van tot 3% in die repokoers voor die einde van 2003 blyk op hierdie stadium moontlik te wees. (Translation of Afrikaans member’s statement follows.)

[Dr W A ODENDAAL (New NP): Hon Madam Speaker, the New NP is of the opinion that all economic indicators, as well as the mistake made by Statistics SA with the calculation of the consumer price index, showed that the South African Reserve Bank had to lower the repo rate by a full 2% in the short term. Because such a sudden, relatively big jump may, however, create unnecessary instability in the financial markets, we are satisfied with the reduction of 150 basis points on which the bank decided.

The New NP is, however, of the opinion that a further reduction of at least 100 basis points in the repo rate before the end of August 2003 is essential, in order to curb the recent deceleration in the South African economic growth rate and further relieve the interest burden on especially younger South Africans who still have debts to pay off. A further gradual financial reduction of up to 3% in the repo rate before the end of 2003 seems to be possible at this stage.]

                   DEVELOPMENT OF FREE TRADE ZONES

                        (Member's Statement)

Mr L M GREEN (ACDP): Madam Speaker, three years ago Government ambitiously announced four designated free-trade zones which were aimed at encouraging large investment projects in South Africa, would allow duty-free imports and a zero rate on VAT for locally produced goods and would offer a number of investment incentives such as no restriction on foreign equity ownership and repatriation of profit, no social service tax and low corporate tax rates.

The intention with establishing these industrial development zones was to help economic growth and job creation through export-orientated manufacturing investments - which is commendable. To date the East London industrial development zone is the only one developed according to plan. It has received commitments from 15 foreign investors in the car manufacturing, timber, pharmaceutical and textile industries and this is expected to create 40 000 much-needed jobs in the Eastern Cape in the near future. Could Government explain, in particular the Minister of Trade and Industry, why the other free-trade zones are taking so long to develop their potential?

        RAMPANT PROBLEM OF ABUSE OF WOMEN AND CHILDREN ABUSE

                        (Member's Statement)

Mrs T P SHILUBANA (ANC): Madam Speaker, in one village in Limpopo in 1998, a man brutally assaulted his wife and cracked her skull. Her name was Anna Kosa. Although this case was reported to the police no prosecution took place, because the victim withdrew the case. In 2002 the same man injured his wife’s neck with an axe. She later was admitted to the Letaba Hospital where she remained in a coma until she died on 4 June 2003, leaving behind six children of whom four are still minors. She will be buried tomorrow on 14 June 2003.

This incident tells the story of hundreds of women who are exposed to physical and psychological abuse. It also tells the story of a society that still needs to undergo fundamental transformation so that the psychological pressure which results from a vicious cycle of poverty does not translate into extreme forms of male aggression and women abuse. As South Africans we must boldly confront the rampant problem of women and child abuse. This incident is a gross violation of human rights.

The ANC condemns this barbaric and cowardly act. The ANC calls on the criminal justice system to ensure that the full might of the law of the democratic state descends upon the perpetrator of this horrific crime. We further call on all women of South Africa to report all incidents of women and child abuse. [Applause.]

             PRESIDENT MBEKI'S ADDRESS TO ILO CONFERENCE

                        (Member's Statement)

Ms E THABETHE (ANC): Madam Speaker, President Thabo Mbeki addressed the 91st session of the International Labour Conference in Geneva, Switzerland on 11 June 2003. The conference started on 3 June and will end on 19 June

1. The President was accompanied by the Minister of Labour, the Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs, Cosatu representatives and Business SA.

The ILO is a structure set up by the United Nations to promote social justice and human rights in the work place. President Mbeki’s participation in this conference has a greater significance in view of the recent Growth and Development Summit. It is also an acknowledgement of the strides which the ANC Government has made in the first decade of freedom to uphold and promote social justice, human rights and workers’ rights. The ANC appreciates the participation of President Mbeki at this conference and wishes all delegates good luck in their deliberations. [Applause.]

The SPEAKER: Hon members, I want to remind the ACDP and the ANC that they will have an opportunity for an additional statement, because there are two slots now available. [Interjections.] DA, you come in the roster.

                   HIV/AIDS IN THE PUBLIC SERVICE

                        (Member's statement)

Mr M WATERS (DA): Madam Speaker, the Minister for Public Service failed to mention HIV/Aids during her Budget Vote speech. As the single biggest employer of over 1 million people, the Aids disaster is taking its toll on the Public Service. Within the department’s own report it is said that without treatment service delivery will suffer. A total of 250 000 public servants are set to die from Aids by 2012.

The report further states that skilled and highly skilled employees are at the highest risk of infection. The current HIV-infection level in the Public Service is 14%, but higher in key areas. The rate among student nurses is 30%; teachers 18%; social workers 19%; and the infection rate within the Defence Force is at least 22%. This is the first year when Aids- related deaths in the Public Service will outnumber non-Aids deaths.

The Government’s refusal to treat the cause while spending billions on the symptoms such as TB and pneumonia is nonsensical. The DA’s actuarial study into only the direct costs to the state in terms of the sick leave and death benefits for teachers confirms what every sane South African is saying: It is cheaper to provide antiretrovirals. It is time for sanity within the ANC as well. I thank you.

Hon MEMBERS: Hear, Hear!

                          CHILDREN'S RIGHTS

                        (Member's statement)

Mrs L R MBUYAZI(IFP): Madam Speaker, children are a gift from God. They need our care and love so as to grow and become responsible, loving and caring adults. They are the future of our country, in the hope that what we have can be sustained to the next generation. It is unfortunate though, that such treasure is sometimes neglected and abandoned by those who brought them into this world. Most of these children end up on our streets, some even in jail, at a tender age.

Some parents have the nerve to abandon their children as they are seen to be an obstacle to their development. However, another issue is the fact that the problem becomes a vicious cycle of early pregnancy, which sometimes leads to abandoned children. This is because most of these teen mothers are not equipped emotionally and physically to deal with motherhood and they sometimes find the whole experience of motherhood overwhelming.

There is therefore a need for training in this field for our youngsters so that when they are faced with a situation they know how to deal with it. It is a reality that in this country we have a large number of teen pregnancies and so something needs to be done. I thank you.

               BERTRAMS' DEVELOPMENT BRIGADE PROGRAMME

                        (Member's statement)

Mr L M KGWELE (ANC): Madam Speaker, the Foundation for Education and Production is embarking on a Bertrams’ Development Brigade Programme. This programme provides education and training to the youth. It empowers them to have the opportunity to gain full-time employment by providing the necessary skills. This programme aims to achieve this mission by providing training to young people by engaging them in renovating existing and building new homes, and thus providing affordable housing to low-income families. The ANC welcomes the initiative by the Foundation for Education and Production. We believe that programmes of this nature encourage the spirit of community service among young people and expands their horizons by providing opportunities for full-time employment.

The ANC calls on other community development activists to emulate this example and to work tirelessly towards empowering the country’s youth for a brighter future and better life for all. I thank you.

                          COMRADES MARATHON

                        (Member's statement)

Mr S SIMMONS (New NP): Madam Speaker, every year the world’s best runners gather in South Africa for the Comrades Marathon. A little over 12 750 competitors will face the starter in Pietermaritzburg for the 78th annual Comrades Marathon this year. This year there is a 17% increase in novice involvement and 20% more female entries in the top-quality field of international and national stars.

However, the Comrades is not only about running. It is also about charity. It raises funds for cancer, conservation, the community chest and Aids. The obvious favourite is the defending champion, Vladimir Kotov. The New NP wonders if Kotov knows about the fierce fight-back team. We here in the New NP hope that Tony Leon, his sidekick Douglas Gibson and the rest of his bratpack also take part in the Comrades this year, seeing that they have perfected the art of running away with everything. [Laughter.]

The New NP would like to wish all participants good luck and believe that the South African runners will do us proud. I thank you. [Applause.]

                   GAS FUELS FOUND OFF WEST COAST
                        (Member's Statement)

Mr A BLAAS (ACDP): Speaker, we take note of the extensive gas fuels that have been found off the West Coast. We sincerely hope that these fuels will be developed, or that the necessary capital will be found to develop these fuels to their full potential. This will alleviate the increasing demand on energy resources.

The vision of linking these gas lines with PE to stimulate the existing momentum in the economy and growth in PE is a dream that we hope will be realised, and we hope that these gas fuels will supplement our requirements for additional energy. Thank you.

         IMPLEMENTATION OF NATIONAL YOUTH SERVICE PROGRAMME

                        (Member's Statement)

Mr S B NTULI (ANC): Madam Speaker, hon members, the organised formation of young people in South Africa and the National Youth Commission are proposing the implementation of the National Youth Service Programme. The aim of this programme is to engage young people in a systematic programme that provides them with vocational skills and educational training, while contributing to reconstruction and development and enhancing their employability.

This programme will also encourage young people to embark on community service in line with the spirit of Vukuzenzele and volunteerism. These programmes will provide skills and opportunities for young people.

The Growth and Development Summit decided, among other things, that the Expanded Public Works Programme must have a national youth service programme component in order to tackle the problem of youth unemployment. The ANC endorsed the National Youth Service Programme at its 51st conference, and the ANC Government has also accepted the proposal for the establishment of the National Youth Service Programme. The ANC calls on all role-players to move speedily to the implementation stage of the National Youth Service Programme. I thank you.

                     RELEASE OF CRIME STATISTICS

                        (Minister's Response)

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Madam Speaker, the hon George is correct when he describes the hon Gibson’s antics as a publicity stunt. In fact, we would have laughed it off as a joke were it it not for the fact that it was serious. [Interjections.] It was a serious matter because the hon Gibson was deliberately misleading the public and the media. [Interjections.] But we’ll let the facts speak for themselves.

Firstly, the hon Gibson asked me, in his requesting document, to make available or release the statistics for the years 2000, 2001 and 2002. Last year we came before this honourable House and submitted this report. It covers the financial year 2001-02 and embodies the statistics that the hon Gibson says we must release. [Interjections.] Not only that, this document, as all hon members of the ANC know, is also a comparative study of all the statistics since the very first financial year of 1994-95, until 2001-02. [Interjections.] This is a public record. [Interjections.]

Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Speaker, the hon Minister has said that the DA - the hon Mr Gibson - was deliberately misleading the House. [Interjections.] That, I contend, is unparliamentary. [Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: Order! I will check if it was deliberate. I will ask you to call on that.

Mr A C NEL: Madam Speaker, I think the allegation was that those words were uttered in respect of events that took place outside of this House. [Interjections.] The allegation is not that the House is being misled. [Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: Hon Mr Nel, will you take your seat. [Interjections.] Order! I will look at the Hansard and give a ruling. Please proceed, Minister. The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: As I was saying, members of the ANC who have been interacting with this report are aware that it not only speaks to the statistics that the hon Gibson wants, but also makes a comparative study of all the statistics from the very first financial year of this democratic House - 1994-95 to 2001-02. [Interjections.]

Now, the hon Gibson, as an hon member of this House - and, I am saying, as a lawyer - is fully conversant with the Promotion of Access to Information Act. He must have revisited this particular stipulation for the purposes of his publicity stunt. It says: “If the information officer of a public body decides to grant a request for access to a record, but that record is to be published within 90 days … “

The SPEAKER: Hon Minister, I’m sorry but even allowing for the points of order, your time in which to give a response has expired. [Interjections.] There is a limit … [Interjections.] [Applause.] Order! There is nothing to call a point of order on because nobody has spoken.

                         APPROPRIATION BILL

Debate on Vote No 22 - Defence

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Madam Speaker, members of the House, ladies and gentlemen, the Defence Secretariat, Chief of SA National Defence Force and command structures of the SA National Defence Force, Amnesty International has said rather than making the world safer from terrorism, the war on terror has actually eaten away at collective security by making the world more dangerous. Actions in the name of the so-called war on terror have undermined international law and shield governments, including the United States of America, from scrutiny as they curtail the application of human rights. This suggests that the global security environment today requires very sober assessment if we are to correct the damage that has been done to the global system of collective security. The new United States security doctrine has expressed a very clear goal of maintaining their current military superiority as a tool to leverage political, strategic and economic interests. As the editor-in-chief of Military Technology, Ezio Bonsignore, has observed, the invasion of Iraq has shown that while Washington would prefer to obtain international approval for any moves it may wish to implement in the pursuit of its own interests, at the same time it is quite ready and willing to act outside of and indeed against all established international institutions if sanction is withheld. This poses a direct threat to the world’s order and stability.

The invasion of Iraq inflicted great damage on the United Nations system as a means of cushioning the world against interstate armed conflicts. The end of the Cold War exploded the old way of doing things, and we have seen a resurgence of violence and insecurity in many parts of the world. This is characterised by civil war, ethnic and religious disagreements, and a decline in politically induced international aid that has led to an increase in social insecurity which has inspired violence over scarce resources as well. Whilst we agree that the integrity of the United Nations has been affected, we are nevertheless of the view that it is not redundant. Recent events emphasise the need to speed up reform of the United Nations and the Security Council in particular. There is growing consensus that there is a need for increased representation for Africa and the developing world in general. The world cannot tolerate a situation in which the few most powerful nations hold the majority of nations of the world to ransom.

Ongoing discussions on the above must inform what needs to be done to re- establish collective security. What is no longer in doubt is that the world has to remould and re-enforce collective security arrangements.

The fall of the Berlin Wall and the end of the Cold War promised a long millennium of peace and, yet, 13 years later that promise has evaporated. Rather than gravitating towards greater stability, the world situation, in a great measure, has become increasingly more uncertain and threatening. This is true for Africa too.

Africa inherited several conflicts from the Cold War period: the civil war in Angola; the conflict in the DRC; the bloody strife in Sierra Leone, Liberia and in other parts of West Africa; the collapse of states in the Horn of Africa encompassing Somalia, Eritrea and Ethiopia; as well as the strife in the Sudan. The challenge here was to contain and resolve these conflicts.

Instead, even before September 11, Africa experienced ghastly terrorist actions in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania and Nairobi, Kenya. The war on terror, inevitably, would spill into our continent. As consequence Africa has now become one of the theatres of international terrorist activity - witness the recent attack in Morocco. This consequence has imposed fresh obligations on African countries singly, regionally and continentally, to equip themselves to respond to all of these threats in a world which is becoming less secure as a result of unilateral actions by the great powers. Raised tensions have deepened levels of insecurity, and global unease is also felt in Africa.

The Afghanistan war and the invasion of Iraq have increased the sense of unease on our continent, thus tempting Africa to increase defence spending and to siphon off attention and resources from other areas of security like piracy, environmental degradation, disaster relief, search and rescue, etc. Africa has been robbed of the chance not just of attending to these wider security concerns, but of even putting building blocks in place.

The situation today does not allow us to use the concept of a peace dividend either in defence planning or in the defence budget. The countries in our region and on our continent face the same challenges. We therefore need to pool our resources. We need to deal with these problems collectively, and regional collectives like SADC become more important. It is in this context that we are looking at a collective approach to defence on the continent of Africa under the auspices of the African Union, through the development of a common doctrine and the establishment of an African standby force.

We are agreed in the African Union that a common defence policy is not a single policy for all of Africa, but a policy on how to respond collectively to threats. The core value of this common policy is summarised by the indivisibility of continental security. The security of each African country is inseparably linked to that of others and Africa as a whole.

The other core value that has been re-emphasised is that conflict resolution should principally be effected by peaceful means. Intrastate conflicts often impact and spill over into neighbouring states. Nonaggression therefore remains a central tenet of the common policy.

A common security and defence policy means that all existing regional, continental and international instruments should be identified and coherently integrated into this policy. This could include instruments on terrorism, landmines, small arms, child combatants, mercenaries, health refugees, etc.

Whilst we concentrate mainly on challenges that relate to landward defence, it is clear that the new security environment encompasses a significant maritime element that we must study and incorporate where possible. Besides disturbing evidence of increased sophistication and activity of pirates at sea, we must note recent developments that place far greater emphasis on international obligations for the security of ports and installations at sea such as oil and gas platforms. Furthermore, countries’ obligations to protect their economic exclusive-zone assets, including the ocean floor and marine-based infrastructure, pose particular challenges. As a recent study noted, it is not so much the protection and security of maritime trade itself that is a major concern, but the security of the whole system that enables the trade to take place.

Each country has to look at what its doctrine and security evaluation are, what assets it has, and what it can contribute to the common good. Parliament and the electorate must remember that each of the state parties participating in collective security does so in keeping with what resources it possesses. As the biggest economy of the region, our country will always have to carry bigger responsibilities. The strategic issue then becomes how we organise ourselves regionally through SADC; and continentally through the African Union.

The whole continent is working at meeting these challenges. On the defence side, our approach is to create regional blocks which when pulled together form a continental body. As a result, we as part of SADC are in the process now of the last stages of the finalisation of the SADC Mutual Defence Pact. My counterparts in the region and I have actively participated in the process of assessing issues of detail. We are now satisfied with the results of a complex process, and I am optimistic that the defence pact will be signed at the next heads of state summit in August.

Each country has to look at whether its logistical lines are adequate, whether its communications equipment is compatible with that of its neighbours so that we can talk to each other. We have to look at how we transport our troops; we have to look at a military doctrine that differentiates between peacekeeping and peace enforcement; we have to look at how our military institutions assist and support civil authorities. This, in turn, entails an awareness on the part of every member of a military force of understanding civil-military relations. The predictable difficulties faced by the United States and the UK military forces in Iraq today merely serve to underline these points.

The African standby force is currently at an advanced stage of discussion, but I can inform the House that we have reached full agreement and consensus on a range of matters. These include issues of doctrine and posture, shifts in the nature of peacekeeping operations, interoperability of forces, common standards of training, equipment and logistics, standard procurement regimes for commonly identified appropriate equipment needs, the establishment of command structures, and so on. More precise details are included in the printed version of my speech, which has been circulated amongst the members and which is available to members of the media as well.

Work is already in progress around all these issues, and we expect a detailed report when the African chiefs of staff meet again in 2004. These are but some of the continent’s generic issues that we are forced to examine on a daily basis. These are the challenges facing our military planners. The SA National Defence Force has to align itself more coherently with these new developments.

As I turn now to examine a number of concerns, developments and initiatives that we face within the Department of Defence here at home, I suggest that we keep in mind the larger issues I have just outlined. By so doing, we are able to develop a tighter appreciation of what our priorities should be, and how our actions promote longer-term success than the quick-fix kneejerk response that we are sometimes urged to pursue by well-meaning, though sadly misinformed, observers and commentators.

Whilst our constitutional mandate remains the same, our increased regional commitments have brought about additional spending which brings pressure to bear on our budget allocation. These were not foreseen and cannot be accommodated all the time. The fact of the matter is that it costs much more to send a soldier on a peacekeeping operation, in which he or she receives an additional allowance, purchases rations at a higher cost, etc, than it does to maintain that soldier in a base in South Africa.

Against this backdrop of the co-ordinated efforts of the SA Police Service and of Defence, we welcome the decision of Government to progressively reduce our involvement at home over the next five years, and to make those resources available for our peacekeeping work in the region and for support of the diplomatic work in Africa. This change of focus has necessitated a thorough re-examination of our force structure and design.

We continue along the difficult path of aligning our mandate and tasks with our budget, especially, but not exclusively, with regard to our increased yet necessary external deployments. We are deploying twice as many members of the SA National Defence Force as was anticipated in the Defence Review, whilst our budget, as anticipated in the same Defence Review, has not been increased. Defence is still only allocated 1,62% of the GDP and amounts to 6,74% of Government expenditure. Over and above the deployment of the SA National Defence Force in the DRC and Burundi, which was outlined in detail yesterday by the Chief of the SA National Defence Force, our daily work in the region continues. In line with Cabinet priorities and guided by our Department of Foreign Affairs, we are servicing 103 international agreements with 50 different countries. As a result, our foreign relations division is increasing South Africa’s presence in 31 countries. Not all of these countries will have a defence attaché residing in its country, but there will be accreditation.

In light of the challenges outlined above, the SA National Defence Force must be oriented so that it is attuned to meet its obligations. Training, equipment and personnel must be aligned for peacekeeping operations.

Efforts to rightsize without an employer-initiated package have had to depend on natural attrition. But the problems of an aging defence force, with not enough new, young blood coming in, is beginning to impact on our operational readiness. These difficulties will be met partly by the adoption of the Human Resource Strategy of 2010.

We need to effect further transformation of our military justice system, both in terms of its efficiency and in its capacity to deliver fairness and justice. Together with the international community of the Red Cross, the teaching of international humanitarian law is now taught at every level in the SA National Defence Force. Work on the reserve force is beginning to bear fruit, and the parliamentary defence committees have played an important part in the role of oversight in this regard. I would like to thank the chairperson, the hon Ms Thandi Modise, for her leadership in this regard. [Applause.]

We are now at a stage in our transformation in which we are on an even keel and out of the rough seas. Our ship, the SA National Defence Force, has kept afloat, and we can see our way forward. This momentous achievement, whose success is directly attributable to the commitment of the men and women in the SA National Defence Force and Defence Secretariat, is now enabling us to plan for the future in an organised and systematic way. Succession planning is a key area and a top priority which must now be incorporated into our planning.

The transformation of the Department of Defence is ongoing. Our policy and planning division is working through the regulatory framework emanating from the Defence Act. One example of the practical consequences of this work will suffice. The differences between peacekeeping and peace enforcement result in differences in training, posture and equipment. The degree of flexibility inside the department to be able to adjust training to meet our continental challenges has been tested owing to certain capacity problems in the Defence Secretariat.

On 25 April 2003 the old SA National Defence Force emblem was phased out in a retreat ceremony. The old SA National Defence Force flag was lowered and handed back to the Chief of the SA National Defence Force, Gen Siphiwe Nyanda. On 29 April 2003 Gen Nyanda presented the new SA National Defence Force flags and emblems to the senior echelons of the SA National Defence Force. [Applause.]

This constituted a very visible identity change for the SA National Defence Force. It symbolised an important step forward in our transformation. Our nation can now be truly proud of its national Defence Force whose professionalism and discipline are recognised the world over. The SA National Defence Force will be participating fully in whatever our country calls upon it to do in our quest for peace and stability. I thank you. [Applause.]

Adv H C SCHMIDT: Madam Speaker, it is clear that the 6% increase in the defence budget is being usurped by the special defence account responsible for the cost of the arms deal. In addition to a 9% increase in the salaries of personnel, in accordance with the Public Service Bargaining Council resolution, the repayment of the arms deal has increased by approximately R1 billion to inflate the special defence account to R8,8 billion or approximately 43,8% of the defence budget. It is therefore clear that the budget of the Department of Defence has, with the exclusion of the special defence account, decreased in real terms. To add to the department’s woes, commitments by Cabinet in terms of external peace enforcement deployment in the DRC, Burundi, Ethiopia and Eritrea has increased, despite no increase in funds.

Ek kan dit nie anders stel as om te sê dat die Departement in die spreekwoordelike knyptang vasgevang is. Dit is duidelik dat die amptenary en veral die finansiële beamptes hul bes probeer onder die omstandighede. Dit is ook duidelik dat, gegewe die al groter wordende probleme binne die departement gemeet teenoor die Kabinet se politieke besluit om die Weermag te betrek by Afrika-geskille, die Kabinet en die Minister van Verdediging geen benul het van die dilemma waarin die departement hom bevind nie, óf vanweë ‘n gebrek aan belangstelling, óf vanweë ‘n blote tekort aan kennis. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

I cannot put it any other way than to say that the department is caught in the proverbial vice. It is clear that the officialdom and especially financial officials try their best under the circumstances. It is also clear, given the ever increasing problems within the department measured against the Cabinet’s political decision to involve the defence force in Africa’s conflicts, that the Cabinet and the Minister of Defence do not have a clue as to the dilemma in which the department finds itself, either because of a lack of interest or because of a bare lack of knowledge.]

There is a disparity between the funding of the department, excluding the special defence account, and the required commitments requested from the SANDF. This cannot be allowed to continue. Financial problems are being foreseen with regards to the funding of the Hawk fighter aircraft, more in particular the Grippen fighters on which Cabinet has to take a decision within the near future. The current Mirage F1 fleet of which apparently 21 are currently unused, can in future be upgraded at a cost of less than one third of the total Grippen deal - leaving billions of rands available for more urgent priorities within the department. This would provide a solution to the SA Air Force for the next ten to twenty years, as well as creating “dip-and-nip” opportunities.

The severity of the SANDF position is reflected by the fact that the Ysterplaat and Bloemspruit runways, as well as runway lighting is in dire need of repair and replacement. Media reports yesterday disclosed threats by the Tshwane Local Council to close 1 Military Hospital outside Pretoria due to fire safety. Unsuitable medical conditions and disgusting hygiene standards indicate the crisis the SANDF is currently facing.

The required funding of R600 million for the completion of the Rooivalk project is still outstanding, with the critical delay ensuring that the Rooivalk is not able to be marketed or sold. Surely this project must be regarded as important because of the billions of rand already spent on it.

The total confusion following the announcement of the President to phase out the commandos within a period of six years has not only left the Departments of Defence and Safety and Security in bewilderment, but has led to insecurity in the rural areas at the cost of the alienation of all those affected communities.

The Democratic Alliance unequivocally opposes the phasing out of the commandos. These commandos have delivered excellent service to the communities and have as recently as yesterday, during a briefing to the media in respect of South Africa’s foreign deployment, been praised for having done an excellent job. Yesterday! In addition, the hon Minister is on record as stating in Parliament that the commandos are doing a good job. What has happened? The decision to phase out the commandos is purely an ANC political decision and has nothing to do with looking after the best interests of those communities. Military doctrine provides commandos with the role of rear area defence during times of war. Most alarming is that haphazard planning is being conducted by individuals who have very little knowledge as to the sphere within which commandos operate and that which is required. Some units have already been closed.

With the intended formation of the African standby force, it is important to ensure that a reserve officers’ association for the African continent is established. In this regard the African Armed Force Journal has in the past few years actively promoted this concept and should receive our support.

Groter belangstelling in die reserwemagte is tans noodsaaklik, gegewe die gebrekkige standaard van paraatheid van ons troepe. Volgens die nuutste aanduidinge, of is dit die oudste aanduidinge, word die HIV-infeksiesyfer steeds gebaseer op ‘n betreklike klein opname uitgevoer gedurende 2000. Hierdie aspek dui op nalatigheid aan die kant van die departement, of is dit die Regering, om presies vas te stel wat die werklike toestand van die HIV/Vigs virus-epidemie binne die SANW is. Slegs 53% van ons troepe is tans GlKl geklassifiseer vanweë hoë ouderdom, siekte, ens. Dit is in die lig hiervan dat die beoogde onttrekking van die elf firmas uit die rol van ondersteuning vir die polisie gesien moet word, naamlik ‘n gebrek aan genoegsame paraat troepe om buitelands ontplooi te word. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[It is essential that a greater interest is shown in the reserve forces now, given the poor standard of preparedness of our troops. According to the most recent, or is it the oldest, indications, the HIV-infection rate is still based on a relatively small survey executed in 2000. This aspect shows negligence on the part of the department, or is it Government, in determining exactly what the actual situation is regarding the HIV/Aids virus epidemic within the SANDF. Only 53% of our troops are currently classified G1K1 because of age, illness, etc. It is in the light of this that the intended withdrawal of the eleven companies from their support role for the police must be seen, namely a lack of enough prepared troops to be deployed outside the country.]

We have a Minister who, due to negligence, has failed to declare his financial interests to Parliament. It is inexcusable that a Minister who presides over a department whose Chief of Acquisitions, Mr Chippy Shaik was fired following the arms deal, who emanates from a party whose chief whip - the previous Chairperson of the Joint Standing Committee on Defence - was found guilty of fraud for falsely declaring that he had received no benefit in respect of the arms deal, not to mention Ms Winnie Mandela, who was also charged with failing to disclose her interests, would even attempt to indicate that he had merely committed a mistake by not declaring his financial interests to Parliament. This is untenable position to believe.

As stated before, a review of the Defence Review is critically needed. Not only has the strategic environment dramatically changed since 1998, but also the requirements and tasks which the SANDF should be ready to undertake. An exit mechanism for all those approximately 15 000 troops who have to make way for young, fit and healthy troops to be deployed wherever required, is urgently needed. No progress of any note has been made in this regard. HR2010, the Human Resource Strategy for the department should be followed to its fullest extent in order to create a viable and sustainable Defence Force.

In conclusion, I venture to say that the solution to all these issues is heavily reliant upon a willing and keen Minister of Defence actively committed to ensuring that the problems and position of the Department of Defence be brought to the attention of Cabinet and Government. It is disappointing to say that this commitment has not been forthcoming from our current Ministry of Defence. As stated last year, there has been a lack of political and management commitment to resolve these major issues by both the hon Minister of Defence and Cabinet, and I maintain that view. I therefore regret to say that the Democratic Alliance is not in a position to support this Budget. I thank you. [Applause.]

Ms T R MODISE: Madam Speaker, hon members, ladies and gentlemen, it is three days before the 27th anniversary of June 16. Allow me therefore to dedicate my simple speech to the young people who leaped overnight out of youth and became defenders of the people. Armed with nothing but stones and courage, they resolved to fight the might of the apartheid regime.

Allow me to dedicate myself to the young women of the June 16 Detachment. They are unknown, unsung, unplaced but forever respected and loved, challenging, defiant and ever willing to enter into new and unchartered terrains. [Applause.] We stand tall, and we are proud because we contributed to a dream which has become a reality, that is, a South Africa that belongs to all, a nonsexist, nonracist and united South Africa.

I do, to some extent, agree with hon Schmidt. The defence budget, if you take away the special defence packages, has in real terms decreased. But central to the threat of the 2003-04 budget of the Department of Defence is the contribution that this department must make towards a stable, peaceful and developing Africa.

Upon this contribution lies the dream of Nepad and the reawakening of Africa as a continent. It is important that we, the elected representatives of the people in this House, remember and honour the memories and the sacrifices of the members of the SANDF who fell in the line of duty in the DRC and Burundi in the peacekeeping operations and also in the line of duty internally, here in South Africa. Our respects go to the families and loved ones who understand and allow these brave men and women to go abroad to bring stability and peace so that development and growth can take place on the continent.

South Africa has been asked by SADC, the AU and the UN to assist in peace and security operations in Lesotho, the Comores, Burundi, the DRC, Eritrea and Ethopia. This department has risen bravely and successfully to each challenge. We have risen courageously to assist in the disasters in the region, for example, the Mozambican floods and now the Algerian earthquake.

As the current Chairperson of the AU and as a strategically placed regional power we will be called upon to contribute more personnel to stop the bloodshed in Bunia, in the eastern region of the DRC. We are also expected to increase the personnel in Burundi to assist with the implementation of the peace accord. The big question is, can we sustain the current deployments? Can we afford to increase the contingents? We have learnt a number of lessons in the recent war against Iraq. One of them is the need for accurate and up-to-date intelligence and the utilisation thereof - the status, the size and the age of technology and equipment, the morale and the state of readiness of the deployable forces and the role and the support the media gives to the troops.

We have looked at this, and we have to honestly ask ourselves whether we are in shape. We are learning from the recent events, the attempted coup in the Central African Republic, the attempted coup in Mauritania, the entry of Liberia’s two guerrilla forces into the capital and the continuing anarchy in Somalia. In all these instances the need to deploy a rapid- reaction peacekeeping force becomes vital. The need to have popular support cannot be overemphasised. The question is, can South Africa afford to deploy effectively, efficiently and rapidly to the region and to the rest of the continent without leaving the Republic vulnerable?

When we look back at the September 11 events, can we continue to hold the belief that the traditional threat analysis and identification period of five to 15 years is enough to rely on or should we not do what the Constitution enjoins us to do in section 100? The Department of Defence has been allocated R20,05 billion for the year 2003-04. This is expected to increase to 20,4% next year and 20,5% in the following year.

It is interesting to note that the budget stood at 2,5% of the GDP in 1994 and began dropping in 1995 to just under 1,5% of the GDP in 1998. My colleagues will talk about the impact of this decrease. We agree with the need for balance in public spending. We agree that the nation has other priorities. We agree that we enjoy relative peace and political stability now. We must however remind this House of an oversight performed by this particular House.

When we expected the defence force to integrate eight armed forces, we did not put aside a dedicated fund. When we did that integration, we expected an increase in numbers in military cultures, languages, religions and that the medical facilities of the Defence Force would be overloaded because we were putting in more members.

In fact, in 1994 the Defence Force rose to 101 000 members and yet we did not put aside a dedicated fund to make sure that integration and transformation happened. We expected that the South African National Defence Force would cope and to some extent they coped. But we are all paying very heavily because the increase in personnel expenditure meant a decrease in operational and capital expenditures.

We have had several incidents, perhaps some directly linked to the financial frustrations; some purely linked to the confidence and trust building phase of the Defence Force and some purely arising from a refusal to change within the department. Integration could have gone, as I’ve said, quite a lot smoother had we put in the systems. But now we speculate because we could not foretell. And our systems say that we cannot budget for the unknown. Yet some of the things could have been avoided.

We knew that the defence increase to 101 000 meant that those people would need to be demobilised at some point. We knew that pensions for those people getting demobilised would have to be paid. We knew that the medical facilities would be overloaded. We knew that during the negotiations we recognised the services of the nonstatutory force members.

We also knew that with the increase of cultures, races, sexes and languages it meant more administration and extension on the facilities and yet we expected success. We have watched with pride when the SANDF flitted in and out of disaster management. Yet this House has jointly condemned the department when qualified Auditor-General reports came in. We screamed at the services when the reports came in that training was diminishing, for example in the airforce because there wasn’t enough funds for operational flight preparatory work. The funds had been used for humanitarian aid in Mozambique.

It is good to note that the airforce has now turned the corner and has plans to lord it over our skies in all our colours. Although very little in real terms, the 4,8% increase should see the airforce through though, enable it to retain skills and recruit young people, retain the skills it already has and increase the reserve part of it very substantially.

We urge that the proceeds from the sales must go to the airforce for its own programmes and activities. There are two issues that should be raised. The Rooivalk - it is strange that we sing praises of this combat aircraft without really showing commitment to it. If it so good, why are we not using it? Why are we not showing confidence in South Africa’s own product? Why are we not buying it and making sure that the money circulates internally?

The second matter, which I take issue with through the Minister to General Beukes, is why the air force wants to be the custodians of maritime helicopters? Surely the helicopters are just an extension of the Corvettes and should be allowed to stay in the navy; and that would contribute largely to the multiskilling of the National Defence Force.

My colleagues will look at a number of other issues. They will talk about the service called the Civil Education Programme. They will talk about

1. A few months ago I visited 2 Military Hospital, and I was horrified by the state of the wards. They were scrupulously clean, I must grant that, but they were almost falling apart. A lick of paint, new beds, towels and sheets would be very, very welcome.

In short, Mr Minister, give the facilities a face-lift. If we cannot provide decently for the men and women who are ready to lay down their lives for their country, how can we hope to convince the young ones to come into their own? The South National Defence Force has been accused of not being too upfront about the HIV/Aids statistics. All external deployments are compelled to undergo comprehensive testing so that they leave our shores very healthy. Rumour says that they do not often come back so healthy. What happens? Are we sending these people out without education, literature and condoms? Are we making sure that there are enough female condoms during deployments? Are our troops simply without discipline when it comes to these matters when they are deployed?

With regard to medical inflation standing at 23% - with the expected increase in international operations, with HIV/Aids and increasing TB, malaria and cholera in this country and with the expected retirement of a number of old folk in the Defence Force and the entry of young folk into the Defence Force - the 8,2% increase for the medical support is hopelessly inadequate.

Maritime defence gets a 7,5% decrease, which relates largely to the covert programme. With the substandard cabling on the Amathola, this has become a mixed blessing. An increase in costs and therefore a levy for the major contractor and a chance for the navy to make sure that the racial mix of the crews is a little bit better. It is unfortunate that they will only come in at the lower ranks. Mr Minister, how long does it take to produce a Black, an Indian and a Coloured ship’s captain, and what are you doing about it?

Earlier on I referred to the gathering and the use of intelligence as vital in modern warfare a 7,4% increase goes to that and this can be rationalised. They must get equipment and we are more and more involved in getting operations from abroad. The Department of Defence employs 70 000 people.

Recent briefings indicate that skills are lost because of our often not too competitive conditions of service. The best chef at one of Kenya’s elite hotels is a former member of the South African Navy. We know that commercial airlines are poaching from the airforce. We know that private diving schools are poaching from the navy. This means that even though we want to retain the colours and balance the demographics, if we do not do something about retaining all levels of skills in the Defence Force, we will be working backwards.

Our colleagues in Scopa annually report to us that the Defence Force fails to decrease its surplus stocks. The question is what inventories are we carrying? Can we unload this and get rid of obsolete stock? Can we address the dangerous question of old ammunition before accidents happen? Have we budgeted for this, if not, why not? If so, when can we see this demolition depot being constructed? Such a construction would be an advantage to this country and the region because as the Minister said about integrating systems and equipment and standardising them, surely what is not standard and not integrated will have to be demolished. The South African National Defence Force can then earn some revenue in this regard.

There is often not too gentle pressure put on South Africa to play a more interactive role in peacekeeping on the continent. This requires the Defence Force to spend money on training, deployment and equipment. Although the United Nations and other donor countries often pledge and pay the money, this often happens very late. We therefore need to find a system. I think you need to have a little talk with the Ministers of Foreign Affairs, Safety and Security and the Presidency because our operational budget deviated towards the commitment which South Africa makes. We are proud of it but let us not make those commitments without making sure that we can operate in the meantime.

The Minister referred to the Defence Review. We need to talk about that. I think we also need to talk to the Minister responsible for public works. All facilities that belong to the South African National Defence Force must be given a face-lift. Maintenance must be regular. We cannot afford the state of obsolescence that we are noticing.

I think that this budget of 2003-04 goes a long way towards ensuring that we realise peace and stability in Africa. The ANC will be supporting this vote.

In conclusion, I would like to thank and praise the members of the reserve force for the efforts they are putting in. It is always uplifting to see you in action, especially now in Algeria but we need to correct the Irish coffee syndrome in the reserve force. Maybe MK and Apla ex-combatants need to get their ranks and get their butts into the reserve force so that we can deal with that Irish coffee syndrome. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr N S MIDDLETON: Chairperson, hon members, whenever one discusses the Defence Force with people out there, the question that is always asked is why are you spending so much money on defence? Who are we at war with? Depending on where you come from, there are various replies to this question. My own reply to that is always to refer to that famous book, the Bible, where it says somewhere that one must be prepared, because nobody knows the time and the hour in which the bells will toll for you.

Therefore, I believe the army should be prepared at all times because nobody knows the hour in which the bells will toll for South Africa. A country can only be proud if it has a very proud, intelligent, disciplined and well-trained army. The country can also then be proud. The IFP believes that in order to defend its sovereign territory, South Africa is constitutionally obliged to maintain a well-trained, professional, technologically sophisticated corps in times of peace and war. We expect that the defence policy and Government expectations must be clearly communicated to the department, the armed forces and other concerned agencies so that they are thus able to formulate the strategies necessary to effect the tasks that are likely to fall to them, hence determining the budgetary requirements accordingly.

Only when a proper defence policy is in place and the appropriate budget allocations have been made, can the Defence Force in turn inform foreign policy makers of the country’s military capabilities and weaknesses. The primary responsibility of the corps’ defence capability must to defend the nation against internal and external threats. They are also expected to play a leading role in peacekeeping missions within our borders and the neighbouring countries.

However, the IFP wishes to caution against the extensive deployment of the Defence Force in the external peacekeeping missions. Any external Defence Force role must be premised on a comprehensive, consistent foreign policy as well as a structured, constitutionally regulated intelligence capacity. The motto of our Defence Force should always be: Be prepared at all times in anticipation of any serious threats to South Africa’s security. It cannot be expected that when this country is attacked by any forces that our President or Minister of Defence has to go to the enemy and say: ``Please sir, just give me one month to get ready to get my arms in order to defend myself.’’ There is no such thing, because the enemy cannot then wait. [Applause.]

Our Defence Force must be maintained within its core limitations and readiness for the transition to being on a war footing. However, the readiness and the defence of South Africa’s sovereignty over its territory and airspace should be based on the principle of nonaggression and the desire to avoid confrontations and conflicts at all times. We must not lose sight of the fact that South Africa is a major trading nation and the leading regional power, and this imposes certain obligations on the international community in respect of the preservation of peace and the maintenance of orderly relations within our country.

The IFP is pleased to note that the Department of Defence is seriously concerned with the orientation, restructuring and integration of the armed forces to best fulfil the classic role of a deterrent force. However, such a policy must be developed, formulated and clearly expressed to the armed forces and other concerned agencies. In this regard, I want to say to the Minister that the manner in which the restructuring and the integration of the Cape Corps is being conducted leaves much to be desired. There is chaos and concern out there. Let us not forget that we are talking about the oldest corps in South Africa, dating back to the First World War, and the way they are being treated presently needs your attention.

On the budget, let me say that the allocation of R20,5 billion for 2003-04 leaves much to be desired even though this is an increase of R1,1 billion from the previous budget. The department’s budget is dominated by spending on human resources and strategic armaments procurement programmes. The increase of 13% in transfer payments from 2002 to 2004 is for normal contractual payments and exchange rate variations as well as price adjustments.

The South African army’s increased involvement in peacekeeping operations in Africa requires it to increase the combat readiness of engineer equipment. It must be noted, however, that quality assurance, naval weapons, acceptance and electronic warfare analysis sections in the maritime defence programme have been allocated additional funding in preparation for this strategic armament, though not enough. An increase of 22,6% in special operations is due to the procurement of highly specialised equipment and ammunition, and the introduction of an incentive scheme for special forces.

Let’s not forget what recently happened in Morocco and Iraq. Let us not forget what happened during the Second World War when many countries were caught with their pants down because they were not ready. We have no oil in South Africa. But let us not also forget that we are blessed with various valuable minerals, and many people envy this. Let us not be like Rip van Winkel who slept throughout the revolution. Here I refer to those people who are asking why we need an army. My God, where can you have a country without an army that is well-equipped, well-trained and well-disciplined in order to protect the people of South Africa. [Applause.] With that the IFP supports this budget, but must express great concern about the underbudgeting for this department. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr D M DLALI: Chairperson, the SA National Defence Force’s primary objective is to defend and protect South Africa, its sovereignty, territory and integrity. The acquisition allows the Defence Force to be deployed in compliance with the Republic of South Africa’s Constitution and in conjunction with bodies in other states to preserve lives, health and property, and to provide new essential services. Having said the above, it is also very clear that the region, the continent and the world has high expectations of South Africa when it comes to our region and our continent to lead in all conflict situations as a peacekeeping force, be it international, political or otherwise. Therefore we need to rise above their expectations and we have to prepare ourselves and the readiness of our Defence Force as the SA National Defence Force or face the challenge.

Challenges facing South Africa today are peace, security, stability or prosperity. As indicated above, South Africa is expected to lead, as our President is the leader of the African Union. Our challenge is that we need to be ready for all aspects of defence capabilities - air defence, military health, maritime and base support capabilities and other armed services.

On the basis of the said readiness, I was very impressed when the committee in its oversight responsibility visited the exercise of the artillery formation at Potchefstroom on Saturday 24 May 2003. The SA Army Artillery Formation, regular force units and reserve force units participated in the exercise.

Well done, guys! You are making us proud of you. This is what we also need to do, namely to compliment the same performance by different or various armed services. When they were part of the African Celebration Day in Johannesburg on 25 May 2003. Again, well done, guys! We are proud of you. [Applause.] Well done, guys! The nation is proud of you, keep it up. You know you can do more.

I would be failing in my duties if I did not congratulate our uniformed personnel in various countries in Africa, in particular Burundi and the DRC; we are on your side while you are there. You must know that we are very proud of you, including those who have come back to South Africa when they have served there. Well done, guys! We know that you are representing South Africans wherever you are.

When I was in the SA Army Artillery Formation we were told that it was the best artillery formation on the continent. Their equipment will remain oiled and up to standard if the money or budget is made available, because these soldiers need to exercise regularly, therefore they need money, both for exercise and for the use of the equipment. Napoleon said, in 1809, I am told: “It is with artillery that war is made.”

The SA National Defence Force is faced with enormous responsibility in the region and on the continent with regard to peace, security and stability. If the greater powers or powerful nations can do what they like, or if the sovereignty of a country or state is not important and the said powerful nation can insist on a regime change for weak nations, that is hardly an ethical, fair or just approach to international affairs.

Judge Richard Goldstone said on 30 March 2003:

If the powerful excuse themselves from the international rule of law, then the whole thing breaks down; the concept becomes absolutely meaningless. One is reverting to the situation that existed in the 19th century, when powerful nations could do what they wished for their own selfish motives. Colonialism was possibly the best example of that. If the only superpower regards itself as above the law, then it has the potential of releasing everybody from the law.

I am making this quotation, because I want to stress the importance of supporting our Defence Force and giving them the extra money they deserve to make sure that they are equipped to defend our country or sovereignty at all cost.

I would like to raise a few issues on the programmes. The special defence account is projected to take 44,1% of the department’s budget for the 2003- 04 financial year. This means that other programmes such as joint support, defence intelligence, and military health support, project an expenditure for the same financial year of 17,3%, which therefore means that other programmes will suffer in the process. I just wanted to mention those few programmes.

These are the measures that will need some attention in the future budgeting processes. Having said the above, I also want to commend the role played and being played by the Arms Corps in each of these activities. Members of the Arms Corps, at the African Defence Summit, held on 14 August 2000, said:

I pledge Arms Corps’ commitment to continue to render excellent service to our prime client, the South African National Defence Force. And utilising the defence-related industry to achieve this goal will be our objective for the next 50 years.

This is what we need from the defence industry - to understand their prime objective. It is also critical and important that joint training exercises should be enhanced and encouraged between the region, the continent and other parts of the world with the view to some co-operation in certain aspects and areas of mutual agreement. The co-ordination of the joint forces is paramount in terms of the peacekeeping force and in other areas of mutual agreement, in particular when it comes to international peacekeeping and other support wherever our forces are being deployed.

The reserve force is very important as part of the SANDF, but there is still more work to be done in this component. The composition of the reserve force needs more attention as things stand at present in relation to all armed services. This component of the SANDF is more critical, because, for example, when the USA invaded Iraq, they used more of their forces from the reserve force.

We are just coming from the reserve force indaba, which was well organised. Thanks to the organisers. The various armed services within the reserve force need some more attention, in particular around transformation, recruitment processes and training, of course with the necessary capacity needed in the reserve force. The reserve force services need to talk to one another and to have a co-ordinated approach for all aspects and in all respects.

As June is youth month, I wanted to issue a call to all the youth formations to the effect that the SA National Defence Force needs them. We want your support. You must not just join the Defence Force, the people’s army; we must build this nation. We will build this nation if you, the youth, who are leaders of tomorrow, show your strength, capabilities and your love for your country and join the Defence Force in numbers.

There are a number of areas of interest in the Defence Force, not only to carry the big guns. We need you, the youth of our country in, for example, the air force, the navy and other armed services to defend the sovereignty of our country.

The SA National Defence Force is embarking on a programme of visiting high schools, I was told, on a mission of impressing the youth and to encourage them to see the importance of the Defence Force and also to endeavour to recruit the youth. Therefore we need to support all these efforts by the Defence Force to take the SANDF to the people.

Part of building and recruiting new blood for the SANDF is that we need to take into consideration that we need uniformed personnel, both in Africa and elsewhere, to assist in peacekeeping in these countries. And when we send forces we need to train the others to be ready for the next deployment. Therefore we need more soldiers as we cannot foresee what our demands or expectations will be and what we can offer.

While we are deploying our soldiers outside South Africa, we also need soldiers who will defend and protect our developed country in terms of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa. The needs and the expectations of the SANDF are becoming more and more, day by day. This needs more money, not only for the protection of our country, but also for peacekeeping, unity, stability and prosperity. We cannot have unity, peace and prosperity in Africa if we still have civil wars, coups and certain African states with coup leaders. We need growth and economic development in Africa in order for the New Partnership for Africa’s Development to succeed.

As we speak today, we are hosting a three-day African Summit of the World Economic Forum in Durban for the sole purpose of African growth and economic development. African unity will work if there is peace and stability on our continent. As we speak today, there are still problems or conflicts in some parts of Africa, which reduce potentially wealthy states to basket cases, such as the Democratic Republic of Congo, Liberia, Côte d’Ivoire and the Central African Republic. These are the matters that need unity among nations. As Africans, we need to deal with our own problems. We should not look for help from our colonisers. We should build our capacity and reserves to be able to deal with most of the African conflicts as a continent.

I am also told that the level of support of Africa’s growth and economic development will depend on Africa’s advances in governance and democracy. Therefore, if there is no peace and stability, there will be no governance or democracy. Based on the above, it is therefore critical that we have an African standby force for peacekeeping in the region and Africa as a whole.

We have to present our force structure and design, which my colleagues will deal with. The other areas that we need to look at or be really considering of if we need our Defence Force to be ready is the question of military bases. Our buildings sometimes are not in really good condition at all. We support the budget. Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Chairperson, hon members, in this year’s Budget the Minister of Finance linked together the twin concepts of freedom and development. He told us that the Budget draws inspiration from the Freedom Charter. The freedom from fear of bodily harm and hunger is the freedom of all our people to participate in normal daily activities. There shall be peace and friendship, says the Freedom Charter. This is the framework on which our defence policy is based. This policy marks a major break with the apartheid defence doctrine of destabilisation and domination.

The 2003 Budget gives priority to reducing poverty and unequal access to resources that are key causes of conflict. As part of the International Relations, Peace and Stability Cluster the Department of Defence is the leading department in the efforts to bring peace in Africa. We believe that without peace and stability, economic development will not fully take off. Conversely, without economic development and justice there cannot be peace. We believe that it is possible to end wars in Africa. Through Nepad Africans are determined to find lasting solutions.

The President in his address on Africa Day made it clear that we are responsible for each other’s welfare when he said:

Indeed we cannot afford the slaughter of one African by another, anywhere on our continent. Tutsi and Hutu are African. Hausa and Yoruba are African. Ndebele and Shona are African. Zulu and Sotho are African.

Let me highlight the dilemma we face. This is the problem of striking a balance between expenditure on defence and other pressing national needs. This dilemma is captured in the following quotation:

In effect the most difficult military problem to resolve is that of establishing a security system as inexpensive as possible in time of peace capable of transforming itself very rapidly into a powerful force in case of danger or aggression.

Achieving the correct mix to become a modern and balanced Defence Force on the one hand, but affordable on the other is the challenge that confronts the Department of Defence. The business plan for the Department of Defence for the 2003-04 financial year recognises the dilemma of balancing the need to acquire the optimal level of competencies, technology and organisational structure needed for the defence of our country, and the budgetary constraints. The business plan is therefore guided by the considerations to achieve an excellent strategic direction, resource management, maintain effective combat forces and support forces, while ensuring a high standard of professionalism through effective command and control doctrine, tactics and appropriate technology.

The Department of Defence also recognises that successful transformation is essential to ensure alignment of its policies with those of Government. These are the issues of civil/military relations, transparency, representivity, state expenditure and security. Issues of inequality cause conflict within the DoD and will continue to do so unless they are addressed. To achieve sound civil/military relations the Department of Defence submits its annual reports to Parliament and appears regularly before the Portfolio Committee on Defence. The DoD ensures proper accountability through its Inspectorate General which consists of about 200 inspectors and auditors, the largest among all the departments.

The inspectorate has obtained a high accreditation from the International Standards Organisation in December 2002 and we congratulate the division and its leader. The DoD deems it extremely important to maintain a broad national consensus of South Africa’s defence needs and those of peace- support operations, humanitarian assistance and post-war reconstruction. The SANDF needs to be properly funded, as other members have said, so that it is ready, organised, equipped and prepared to support a common objective of achieving peace and friendship as envisaged in the Freedom Charter. Two years ago we sent troops to Burundi to safeguard the returning politicians in that country and not a single one of those politicians was harmed. The SANDF is deployed in the DRC under MONUC. President Mbeki has recently raised concerns about the killing of villagers in the North Eastern Congo and has called for an order enforcing a joint AU/UN force to be deployed in the region.

I had the opportunity recently to visit our troops in Kinshasa when I attended the DRC/South African Women’s Peace Dialogue. Despite the challenges our troops face daily, such as the effect of long absences from home, language barriers and the reality of war, their morale remains high.

The UN Security Council’s Resolution 1325 calls on all member states to ensure that women are represented in all peace processes and post-conflict reconstruction. We are happy to record in this Budget Vote that women peacekeepers have been deployed alongside their male comrades right from the beginning. They are coping equally well and we can say with pride ``Malibongwe igama lamakhosikazi!’’ [Praise the name of the women!]

HON MEMBERS: Malibongwe! [Praise!]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF DEFENCE: The Chief Directorate on Equal Opportunities intends to engage the Chief of Joint Operations to ensure gender mainstreaming in the training and deployment of peacekeepers and strict adherence to the Department’s Code of Conduct which calls for the protection of women and girls from rape and other gender-based forms of violence. We are happy to report that women soldiers are making a special contribution to the peace process in the DRC through their participation in the Inter-Congolese Dialogue. This process was initiated in the Presidency under the leadership of Mrs Zanele Mbeki. The DoD’s own programme of involving women in the peace process in Africa continues to grow. This year the African Women’s Peace Table, a forum created in the department in 2000 to initiate dialogue among women soldiers and civilian women peace activists will focus on Nepad and the AU. We expect participation by women soldiers from SADC.

Another important development is the production by the Chief Directorate of a draft document that proposes a policy on shared values for the DoD. This will strengthen the existing policies on transforming our department into a fully nonracial, nonsexist organisation. Co-operation with other defence forces in the region on issues of gender equity included an invitation of our Chief Directorate on Equal Opportunities and Affirmative Action from Namibia to assist the Namibian defence force to develop its gender focal point. Let me turn now to the department’s contribution to national skills development. Skills development including life skills is crucial to empower our people to carry out their tasks with confidence and efficiency. The human resources division of the DoD has embarked on a skills development programme to address the issue of the lack of representivity especially in the highly technical masterings of the SANDF. The failure to get the numbers correct could be attributed to the education dispensation of the past which made the availability of properly prepared school-leavers difficult. The Youth Foundation Training and the Siyandiza Aviation Awareness Programme target Grades 10-12 youths from a disadvantaged background to improve their maths and physical science symbols and produce a critical mass of well-trained young people.

Siyandiza aims to increase the recruitment pool for training pilots, navigators, air-traffic controllers and engineers thus helping the air force to achieve its transformation goals. The new South African Air Force Young Falcons Programme targeting Grades 6-12 will be undertaken in partnership with the Department of Education and will create a true air force identity for the participating learners.

Chairperson, the poet Ted Hughes writing about how useless war veterans feel about having served, said in a poem:

The war ended, the explosions stopped. The men surrendered their weapons And hung around limply. Peace took them all prisoner.

This reminds us of the challenge of ensuring that military veterans are assisted to reintegrate smoothly into productive civilian life. Parliament passed the Military Veterans’ Affairs Act of 1999 which proposes the establishment of a board to advise the Minister of Defence on issues that concern military veterans in order to improve their quality of life and that of their dependants.

The Service Corps was established in September 1995 to reintegrate ex- combatants into society. A study which was ordered by the Ministry of Defence revealed that the Service Corps was not functioning optimally and had not succeeded in migrating out of the SANDF. We are happy to announce that efforts to migrate the Service Corps into a national vehicle that would benefit the nation are currently under way. This would provide general access to its immense resources such as the Centre for Advanced Training, the CAT, in Pretoria, thus assisting in the development of our nation.

We recognise the need to ensure links with the existing   socioeconomic clusters of Government in order to ensure viability of the Service Corps in such programmes as the Emerging Contractor Development Programme located in the Department of Public Works, the capital equipment clustering process in the Department of Trade and Industry, the preferential and targeted procurement initiative in Public Works and other government departments, export initiatives undertaken by DTI and Nepad and supporting institutions such as the CSIR.

Developmental peacekeeping provides the SANDF with a unique opportunity to assist in the migration of the Service Corps, whilst linking into existing infrastructure-related interventions that would support Nepad. Both the CSIR and the Ministry of Defence are currently exploring the viability of a developmental peacekeeping model. In April this year, the Department of Defence together with the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry launched Operation Vuselela to eradicate foreign vegetation on SANDF-controlled land. This project employs only military veterans and is run under the auspices of the Working for Water Programme with funding from the Poverty Relief Fund. The size and scope of the problem of undemobilised former soldiers who generally are young and restless is a problem not only for individual defence forces, but also for the region and the continent as a whole. We cannot sleep peacefully while tens of thousands of unemployed hungry, former soldiers roam around. The welfare of veterans should not be left to the sole attention of the DoD. It was in recognition of this that Minister Ronnie Kasrils and I jointly launched Operation Vuselela. Previously, I have spoken about the importance of developing a common, national military heritage which integrates struggle and resistance history. To this end we have engaged the Directorate on Military Veterans Affairs in discussion with the Freedom Park Board. We thank Dr Wally Serote, the Freedom Park Board and the Department of Arts and Culture for their continued support. The preparations are under way for the World Congress of Military Veterans which will take place in Johannesburg in December this year. This will be the first time the congress is held in Africa and will provide an excellent opportunity for former African soldiers to meet and put their issues on the agenda.

The Government is aware of the shortcomings of the pensions dispensation for former nonstatutory force members. As announced by Treasury, the Special Pensions Act of 1996 will be amended shortly to rectify the discrepancies. It is expected that this process will be finalised before the end of this parliamentary session.

The SANDF continues to be involved in the fight against Cholera and Malaria in South Africa and in SADC. SAHMS was a key participant in the Rally Against Malaria organised under the leadership of the Minister of Health. The SANDF helped to construct the temporary bridge on the South Coast after it was bombed allegedly by the Boeremag. The SANDF has continued to contribute to internal peace and stability.

I come now to HIV/Aids. HIV poses a special challenge for the DoD from the point of view that the bulk of its personnel fall in the most vulnerable social group of the young, highly mobile and sexually active. The risk of defence personnel on external deployment is heightened by long absences from home. This necessitates more extensive training for our soldiers about the issues surrounding the virus before deployment. The DoD has intensified its efforts to fight HIV/Aids through the Masibambisane Campaign. An advisor on HIV/Aids was appointed in the Ministry of Defence. A total of R4,6 million was spent on the campaign and 71% of the staff of the DoD was exposed to the Masibambisane Campaign. However, we are aware that we have to pay increasing attention to this and the Inspector General will be looking at auditing our programmes to see their effectiveness.

Let me end by saying that in marking the significance of the youth, I have invited my niece who is in the gallery, Sanelisiwe Mtshali, a Grade 9 pupil at my old school Inanda Seminary in Durban. Inanda Seminary produces many leaders including among others our Deputy Speaker Ms Baleka Mbete. The school’s motto is: ``Shine where you are.’’ The Government is directing policy and resources to enable our youth to excel. I call our youth in and out of uniform to shine where you are.

Mayihlome ihlasele. Masilwe nobuphofu nendlala. Masilwe nengqulaza, ukunukubekwa kwezingane kanye nokudlwengulwa kwabesifazane. Ikusasa lentsha lisezandleni zayo. Ngiyabonga. [Ihlombe.] [Attack! Let us fight against poverty and hunger. Let us fight HIV/Aids, child abuse and the rape of women. The future of the youth is in their hands. Thank you. [Applause.]] Mr J SCHIPPERS: Chairperson, the Defence Budget framework indicates a growth in all the programmes, except for landward defence that registers a decline of 4,4%. Given the fact that South Africa does not have a huge air or maritime defence capability, I do not think we must scale down our landward defence.

Our defence capability must be our best deterrent to any aggressor. A vibrant defence strategy can also be a vehicle to develop and transform our country and its people. That is why the Defence Budget supports key issues such as health care, land restitution, skills development, and foreign representation.

Die algemene verkiesing van 2004 is om die draai en dit is nie om dowe neute dat die wapenverslag weer soveel prominensie kry nie. Die ondersoek na die wapenverslag word deurlopend deur die DA bevraagteken. Ek wil met die agb heer Beukman saamstem as hy sê dat die groot dilemma in hierdie saga is dat LP’s met ‘n politieke opdrag na Skoor kom en dit bemoeilik vordering. Vir die agb heer gaan dit in die eerste plek oor die belange van Suid-Afrika.

Die Portefeuljekomitee oor Verdediging moet ‘n toesighoudende rol speel om toe te sien dat die veelbesproke wapens gelewer word. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows).

[Chairperson, the general election of 2004 is around the corner and it is not for no reason that the weapons report once again features so prominently. The DA continually questions the investigation into the weapons report. I want to agree with the hon Mr Beukman when he says that the big dilemma in this saga is that MPs approach Scopa with a political brief and that impedes progress. The hon member is primarily concerned with the interests of South Africa. The Portfolio Committee on Defence must play a supervisory role to ensure the delivery of the much-talked-of weapons.]

Chairperson, for any country participation in peace missions comes at a price. There is the direct cost. This includes the potentially lifelong psychological scarring that goes with exposure to situations of genocide and massacre. The constitutional purpose of the Defence Force is to defend and protect the Republic of South Africa. The question, however is whether participation in peace missions serve our nation’s interests. The link with national interests is the effect on the economy of the subregion and therefore on South Africa’s peace, stability, development and growth.

The SA National Defence Force formulated the one-force policy in which the regular force and the reserve force comprise one force for the defence of South Africa. The two components are therefore complementary and essential partners in our defence capability.

There are thousands of disillusioned and dissatisfied members of the old Cape Corps in South Africa who did not benefit from the transitional agreement at Kempton Park. Some of them have started their own fraudulent schemes in which they promise unsuspecting old members large payments if they join their particular venture. There were statements by the New NP in this regard. These schemes impoverish our people even further because the members must contribute on a monthly basis in order to qualify for the payouts. I encountered this in my constituency and discussed it with the responsible military people. I am glad that the Reserve Force Council embarked on a process to get all dissatisfied ex-members of the Cape Corps on board and to engage them in a peaceful settlement.

Mediaberigte van gister wil hê dat 1 Militêre Hospitaal buite Pretoria dalk moet sluit. Dis is as gevolg van ‘n brandinspeksie deur die Tshwane- munisipaliteit. Die feit dat só ‘n toestand kon ontstaan, moet bevraagteken word. Daar is standaardprosedures wat dit kon verhoed.

Die betrokke hospitaal het in die verlede wondere verrig en met die jongste mediese tegnologie tot sy beskikking, kan hy in die toekoms nog groter mylpale bereik. Ons doen ‘n beroep op die Minister van Verdediging en die Geneesheer-generaal, om alles moontlik te doen om die hospitaal tot sy volle glorie te herstel tot voordeel van alle Suid-Afrikaners. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[According to yesterday’s newspaper reports 1 Military Hospital outside Pretoria will probably have to close. This stems from a fire inspection made by the Tshwane Municipality. The fact that such a situation could arise must be questioned. Existing standard procedures could have prevented it.

The hospital concerned worked wonders in the past and with the latest medical technology at its disposal, can reach even greater milestones in future. We call on the Minister of Defence and the Physician-General to do everything in their power to restore the hospital to its former glory to the advantage of all South Africans.]

Following the announcement by President Mbeki in his state of the nation address that attention would be given this year to phasing out the commando system and the creation of a new system, there was much concern expressed about the need to avoid a security vacuum in the rural areas.

After extensive research and consultation the New NP launched its own policy proposal document on the transformation of the commandos. The existing commando system has been a semipermanent use of a purely military organisation mainly for nonmilitary tasks. For almost two decades, this unusual situation has continued because it was both inexpensive and convenient. The commandos achieved many notable successes, because in 2001 alone more than 80 000 area actions were carried out including, inter alia, air and vehicle patrols, road blocks, manning of vehicle control points, farm visits and border listening posts.

In sommige dele van Suid-Afrika bestaan daar nou egter ‘n opvatting dat kommando’s ‘n oorblyfsel uit ons verdeelde verlede is en dat hulle optree as agente van verdeling. Hierdie negatiewe persepsie moet aangepak word, derhalwe wil die Nuwe NP ‘n nuwe entiteit voorstel.

Die Nuwe NP glo dat ‘n koste-effektiewe en onmiddellik implementeerbare alternatief stelselmatig oor ses jaar ingefaseer kan word om die kommandostelsel te vervang. Dit moet ‘n dubbeldoelige paramilitêre patrolliemag wees wat ‘n geskikte naam moet kry. Ons dink aan Konstabelary, ons dink aan Inkonkoni, ons dink aan Khusela Isizwe en nog ander name. Só ‘n naam moet die patrolliemag simboliseer.

Een van die sterkste argumente vir so ‘n mag is dat dit nie die werklike legitieme kommer opper van ‘n langtermyn- militêre ontplooiing ter ondersteuning van die burgerlike regering nie. Voorbeelde van só ‘n patrolliemag word gevind in lande soos Nederland, Italië, België en Frankryk.

So ‘n mag moet ‘n vredesrol en ‘n oorlogsrol vervul. Sy vredesfunksie sal tipies fokus op die beskerming en ondersteuning van gemeenskappe deur misdaadvoorkomingspatrollies, padblokkades, teen-dwelmoperasies, skare- of optogbeheer, grensbeheer en eerstefase-rampbestuur.

Ten tyde van oorlog of ernstige noodgevalle kan die mag met die SA Nasionale Weermag integreer om bystand te verleen aan interne sekuriteit, sleutelarea-beskerming, grensbeheer en die beveiliging van die agtergevegsterrein, die sogenaamde “rear-area patrol”. Ander kenmerke is dat dit ‘n mobiele, lig gewapende patrolliemag moet wees, bestaande uit beide voltydse en deeltydse elemente van die territoriale reserwemag. Getalsgewys kan dit bestaan uit 20 000 voltydse en 100 000 deeltydse lede.

Die bevelsorde op die nasionale vlak sal begin by ‘n aparte agentskap in die Departement van Verdediging, wat onder ‘n toegewyde adjunkdirekteur- generaal staan met twee hoofdirekteure. Die bevelsorde moet direk verslag doen aan die Minister van Verdediging.

Die Nuwe NP stel voor dat die finansiering op twee primêre wyses kan geskied: ‘n Spesiale toedeling uit staatsfinansiering; ‘n aansienlike toedeling uit die winste van die staatslotery. Dit is maklik regverdigbaar omdat die toepassing van wet en orde fundamenteel is vir die behoud en beskerming van die sosiale welsyn wat bereik is deur ander uitbetalings.

Ten slotte, Voorsitter, die idee van die kommando het sy oorsprong in Suid- Afrika. Dit het ‘n lang geskiedenis van militêre en kulturele innovering, primêr gebaseer op die integrasie van Khoi militêre taktiek en van die Nederlandse Oos-Indiese Kompanjie. Dit is ‘n konsep wat aanvaarbaar is vir die Griekwa, die Namakwa, die Afrikaner, die Basoeto, en die Xhosa. Só ‘n mag kan ook sy eie identifiseerbare uniform hê. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[However, in some parts of South Africa a perception now exists that commandos are a remnant of our divided past acting as agents of division. This negative perception must be addressed and that is why the New NP wishes to propose a new entity.

The New NP believes that a cost-effective and immediately implementable alternative can be gradually phased in over a period of six years in order to replace the commando system. It must be a dual-purpose paramilitary patrol force which must be given a suitable name. We are thinking of names such as constabulary'', Inkonkoni’’, ``Khusela Isizwe’’ and others. Such a name must symbolise the patrol force.

One of the strongest arguments for such a force is that it does not raise the very legitimate concern of a long-term military deployment in support of a civilian government. Examples of this type of patrol force can be found in countries such as the Netherlands, Italy, Belgium and France.

Such a force must fulfil a role in times of peace and of war. Its peacetime function will typically focus on protecting and supporting communities by way of crime prevention patrols, roadblocks, antidrug operations, crowd or riot control, border control and first-phase disaster management.

In times of war or grave emergency the force can be integrated with the South African National Defence Force to assist with internal security, key- point protection, border control and securing the rear-battle area, the so- called “rear-area patrol”. Other features are that it must be a mobile, lightly-armed patrol force, comprising both full-time and part-time elements of the territorial reserves. As far as numbers are concerned, it could comprise 20 000 full-time members and 100 000 part-time members.

The national-level chain of command would start at a separate agency in the Department of Defence, headed by a dedicated deputy director-general assisted by two chief directors, reporting directly to the Minister of Defence.

The New NP proposes that funding take place in two primary ways: a special allocation of state funding and a substantial allocation from the profits of the National Lottery. This is easily justifiable because the enforcement of law and order is fundamental to upholding and protecting the social good achieved by the other pay-outs made.

Finally, the idea of a commando originated in South Africa. It has a long history of military and cultural innovation, based primarily on an integration of Khoi military tactics and those of the Dutch East India Company. It is a concept which was embraced by the Griqua, the Namaqua, the Afrikaner, the BaSotho and the Xhosa. Such a force can also have its own identifiable uniform.]

Chairperson, we will discuss this proposal with all the relevant stakeholders and come forward with a final document. The New NP supports this Budget Vote. I thank you.

Mr S B NTULI: Viva June 16, Viva!

Hon MEMBERS: Viva!

Mr S B NTULI: Chairperson, Minister of Defence Mosiuoa Lekota and other Ministers, members of the gallery and hon members, as we are in the month of June allow me also to pay tribute to the youth of South Africa who fell in the hands of the apartheid regime and the remnants of colonialism. They fell in pursuance of the liberation of South Africa, challenging the effects of separate development policies; fighting for liberation against the imposition of Afrikaans as a medium of instruction; fighting for the establishment of the democratic student representative councils, and fighting against playing apartheid sports so that apartheid and its structures of joint management councils, notoriously known as JMCs became isolated.

To mention a few of these students: Paul Shabangu of Emngwenya College of Education who was a student teacher killed by the enemy along the Swaziland border in 1988 together with three other colleagues; Hendrick Nkuna was brutally killed by the apartheid regime in 1984 at the then Mabopane East Technikon, now the Northern Gauteng Technikon; Thabo Makoela was one of the high school students of Soshanguvhe killed by the police in 1985 - he was a Cosas member; Emma Sathekge, a child killed by the police while playing at her home in Atteridgeville in 1983; Bheki Mlangeni was a Wits law student blown up by the enemy with a hearing device bomb - he was also an Azaso member; Onkgopotse Abram Tiro, a former Turfloop student was also killed in 1974; The Ongoye Massacre of 1983; the Modjadji College of Education Massacre which also left some students dead. The list is endless.

As we celebrate youth month, all the youths who laid down their lives should remind us of where we come from and inspire us as comrade students of today and leaders of this country; and also remind us about the struggle for the total liberation of our country politically, economically, socially and otherwise which has still to be achieved fully. Again to remind ourselves, Azaso adopted the Freedom Charter in 1981 at the congress at Hammanskraal and subsequently changed its name from Azaso to the South African National Students Congress, my alma mater.

Coming to the defence budget, we as the ANC once more wish to acknowledge our leaders for the political role they played in leading the country into Codesa 1 and 2 and ushering in a new democracy we all enjoy today. It was not an easy path yet South Africa chose it. Following the 1994 democratic breakthrough, the apartheid political system and its effects were being gradually demolished and the work begun to establish a new democratic order as we embodied in our Constitution, Act 108 of 1996. Militarily we undertook to set up a military/civic education programme, in view of the different armed forces: the liberation movements characterised by Umkhonto weSizwe and the Azanian Peoples Liberation Army; the statutory forces of the old apartheid regime and its Bantustan armies of the SADF; the TBVC states and the Inkatha military wing.

A military/civic education programme was developed with the objective of instilling respect among members and employees of the defence regarding the values of the new democratic South Africa we wanted. Military/civic education is meant to provide appropriate education and training on values such as respect for human rights, the rights and duties of soldiers, the rule of law, political nonpartisanship, nondiscrimination, nonsexism and most importantly the civil supremacy over the armed forces.

Chairperson, hon members, I wish to inform this august House about what constitutes the curriculum of the military/civic education programme. It outlines the features of the democratic and political processes; the historical background process that resulted in the political liberation and the beginning of the layout of the foundation for the democratisation of our single SA National Defence Force; orientation about the SA Constitution and the Bill of Rights; the civil/military relations issues; the international humanitarian law dealing with matters such as the law of conflict, the respect for cultural diversity and military professionalism in a democracy.

Hon Minister, we commend your department for coming up with this curriculum for it lives up to the aspirations of the people of South Africa as enshrined in the Freedom Charter. There are also other issues that today’s budget should cater for. The military ombudsperson is one of them. The White Paper on Defence states:

The military ombudsperson’s duty among others would be to investigate complaints against the SANDF by military personnel. It is envisaged that the ombudsperson will address any military personnel matters which cannot be resolved through other existing mechanisms.

This office needs to provide an oversight role over the Department of Defence and the SANDF as a whole. Therefore hon Minister, the staffing and profiling of this office needs to be looked into. This office needs to be accessible to the ordinary men and women of the service. Violation of human rights, acts of power abuse by those in authority and the neglect of law and labour law within the military establishment constitute a plethora of issues within the scope of the military ombudsperson’s office. Yet this office is not popularly known among ordinary members of the SANDF.

Civic education programmes should be accessible to all members of the defence right from the chief of staff through to the senior and middle management of command down to the lance corporal; from generals to noncommissioned officers. Military/civic education plays a pivotal role in the transformation of the SA National Defence Force because an uninformed soldier is as dangerous as the enemy itself. Therefore a civic education programme within the Defence Force constitutes a fundamental basic foundation for the military establishment. It was not an error that the ANC during the crafting of the Freedom Charter in 1955, among other things, in clause 8 stated that the doors of learning and culture shall be open to all. This clause signifies the seriousness with which the ANC views the importance of education in a society. Since then it has strived to educate our society, hence the relevance and the importance of the military/civic education programme for men and women in the SANDF in particular, and the members of the Department of Defence in general.

I therefore repeat: An uninformed soldier is as dangerous as the enemy itself. Every soldier must know and understand why he or she is trained and when required he or she is sent to operations. He must be convinced that his mission is politically necessary, politically correct, militarily sensible and morally sound. Hon Minister we agree with your department that whereas the programme appears to have at first been designed for the integration of different forces into one, in actual fact it requires to be continued for the new recruits and aspirant members of the SA National Defence Force.

As South Africa is part of the African continent we are also called upon by the African Union to throw our weight behind Nepad. The New Partnership for Africa’s Development poses various challenges. For instance, according to article 4 on the Principles and Functions of the Constitutive Act of the African Union among other things, the union calls upon the member states to establish a common defence policy for the African continent for member states to function with respect for democratic principles, human rights, the rule of law and good governance. Therefore it behoves our forces to understand and internalise this.

Last but not least, I wish to show appreciation of the DoD’s preparation of the members of the Service Corps for the life beyond the full-time service period on the SANDF - the strategy of the Service Corps follows a two-path parallel approach. Lastly, we also wish to thank the reserve forces in all the arms of service for the unrelenting efforts when they are being called and that they respond to the call. And lastly I wish to thank you all. [Applause.]

Mnr A BLAAS: Blommetjie, jy raas. Stilte! Agb Minister, die ACDP gaan jou begroting ondersteun. Ek onderskryf heelhartig die kommer wat uitgelig is deur die agb Thandi Modise en meer. Ek dink daar is sekere sake wat aandag moet kry en sy het dit baie goed beskryf. Die tekort op die bedryfsbegroting is volledig gedokumenteer en gemotiveer.

Agb Minister, jy sal baie fermer standpunt moet inneem om meer geld vir hierdie doel te bekom, óf ons sal moet kyk na die tydskale vir die implementering van van die ander beleidsdoelwitte, anders gaan ons nie baie strategiese doelwitte bereik nie.

Ek fokus vinnig op ‘n paar aspekte van die reserwemag - wat ‘n integrale deel van die weermag is. Erkenning word gegee aan die uitstaande werk in die afgelope 12 maande deur leiersgroepe van die reserwemagte. Ons sal egter vir hulle geld moet gee om hierdie planne uit te voer, anders gaan ons hulle en die weermag in die steek laat. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mr A BLAAS: Blommetjie [little flower], you are making a noise. Quiet! Hon Minister, the ACDP will support your Budget. I wholeheartedly support the concern that was raised by the hon Thandi Modise and others. I think that there are certain issues that should receive attention, and she described them very well. The deficit of the operational budget is fully documented and motivated.

Hon Minister, you will have to take a much firmer position in order to obtain more money for this purpose, or we will have to look at the timeframes for the implementation of some of the other policy goals, otherwise we will not achieve very strategic goals.

I shall quickly focus on a few aspects of the reserve forces, which are an integral part of the defence force. Acknowledgement should be given to the outstanding work performed during the past 12 months by leader groups of the reserve forces. However, we will have to give them money to execute these plans, otherwise we will be letting them and the Defence Force down.]

Sir, chaos is developing around the phasing out of the commandos, notwithstanding the undertakings given by the President and the Minister. Various people are creating uncertainty and disillusionment by making conflicting statements. The latest is the wisdom of the National Commissioner of Police.

I would appreciate the Minister’s views on this. He says, amongst other things that commandos had their own structures and that they were under no one’s command, and that this is not acceptable to the police. The units are no longer part of the doctrine of the South African National Defence Force and are not in the army’s force design. He also says some other things.

What a distorted perception and an irresponsible public statement to make. He should rather focus on staffing and empowering his own structures, including the establishment of a reliable and deployable reservist component. Instead, he flutters around like a cat on a hot tin roof, not sure where this responsibility should vest - with either the sector policing, special units or with reservists. He should pay for the defence support, then he may appreciate what it is worth to him.

Phasing out the commandos, not debating its merits, is a sensitive issue that must be thoroughly managed to prevent it from exploding in our faces, leaving us with a security vacuum in the rural areas. And it is not for white farmers alone. These men, 60% of whom are black members, render their services to the deep rural areas with their own specific problems.

Referring to the conventional reserves, we have a five-year window period to save these units. Only leader groups were maintained and limited intakes were trained. The age profile will make them redundant within five to eight years. It takes us seven years to put down an infantry company commander on the ground. We must address this, otherwise the conventional reserves will fall away.

Minister, together we must face realities and ensure that what is required to defend our country stays intact and is sustainable. We should not allow the outstanding work done by dedicated members of the SA National Defence Force to be in vain. [Time expired.]

Mnr P J GROENEWALD: Agb Voorsitter, as ‘n mens deesdae iets lees van die weermaglees, is dit negatief en sleg. As dit nie die spook van die wapenskandaal is nie, dan is dit die swak gedrag en/of optrede van manne en vroue in uniform. Die ruggraat van die weermag was nog altyd die leër gewees. Die werklikheid is dat die leër op die oomblik die afdeling in die weermag is wat die swakste is.

In die media moet ons lees van ‘n infanteriesoldaat wat ‘n teiken op drie meter net eenkeer uit 200 skote tref. Op ‘n amptelike vraag van my aan die agb Minister bevestig die Minister die geval. Sy verduideliking is egter dat dit ‘n eksperiment was wat 24 uur opleiding ingesluit het.

Ek wil vir die agb Minister sê: As ‘n infanteris na 24 uur opleiding ‘n teiken op drie meter net eenkeer tref uit 200 skote, getuig dit van totale onbeholpenheid en swak opleiding en -vermoë. Ek stel voor die agb Minister begin die troepe eerder oplei in klipgooi en slingervel. Dalk tref hulle die teiken beter. [Gelag.] ‘n Verdere onsteltenis in die leër is dat 72% van sy begroting aan personeel spandeer word. Dit is geen wonder daar is nie geld vir behoorlike opleiding nie. Nog ‘n probleem is dat die gemiddelde ouderdom van jou gevegstroepe, volgens wêreldstandaarde, ongeveer 21 jaar moet wees. In Suid-Afrika is die gemiddelde ouderdom bo 35. En die rede? Dit is weens die integrasieproses. Dit is die verduideliking wat gegee is en dan moet ons egter eerlik met mekaar wees en erken dat die integrasieproses nie so suksesvol was as wat algemeen verkondig en gesê word nie.

‘n Verdere groot bron van kommer in die leër is dat ongeveer 25% van ons infanterie-eenhede se gevegsgereedheid minder as 50% is. Daar is selfs eenhede wat maar om en by 20% gevegsgereed is. Ek moet vir die agb Minister sê, dit getuig net van een ding - swak dissipline en swak bevel en beheer.

Ek wil onomwonde vir die agb Minister sê: Die Suid-Afrikaanse leër maak ons hele weermag ‘n flentergat weermag, en die agb Minister sal vinnig moet optree. Die agb Minister het meer as 80% van sy toespraak vanoggend hier gewy aan die weermag se betrokkendheid in Afrika en selfs aangekondig dat die Regering besluit het om progressief die weermag se betrokkenheid in ons land af te skaal oor die volgende vyf jaar sodat die bronne beskikbaar gestel kan word vir vredesendings in Afrika.

Die agb Minister sê eintlik vir ons dat Afrika nou belangriker is vir die weermag as Suid-Afrika. Ek wil vir die agb Minister en die regering waarsku: Pasop dat die Kongo en ander dele van Afrika nie Suid-Afrika se Viëtnam word nie.

Dit bring my by die kommando’s. Die binnelandse afskaling van die weermag verskaf ‘n goeie rede hoekom die kommado’s eintlik nou uitgebrei behoort te word. Die uitfasering van die kommando’s is verkeerd en is ‘n strategiese fout. Die koste verbonde aan die kommando’s is omtrent R110 miljoen per jaar. [Tussenwerpsels] ‘n Goedkoop prys vir landelike beveiliging, maar bo alles ‘n goedkoop prys vir ‘n mag om op terug te val.

Dit is die kommando’s wat ingeroep word as daar gehelp moet word by die Wêreldbekerkrieket, dit is die kommando’s wat ingeroep word as daar gehelp moet word by internasionale konferensies. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mr P J GROENEWALD: Hon Chairperson, whenever one reads something about the Defence Force these days it is negative and bad. If it’s not the ghost of the arms scandal, then it is the bad behaviour and/or actions of men and women in uniform. The backbone of the Defence Force has always been the army. The reality is that at this moment the army is the weakest division in the Defence Force.

We had to read in the media of an infantry soldier who only hits a target at three metres once out of every 200 shots. After an official question put by me the Minister confirmed the case. His explanation is, however, that it was an experiment which included only 24 hours of training.

I want to say to the hon Minister that when an infantry man cannot hit a target at three metres after 24 hours of training, it is evidence of total incapability and poor training and ability. I suggest that the hon Minister instead trains the troops in stone-throwing and catapult-slinging. Maybe then they will hit the target better. [Laughter.] A further concern in the army is that 72% of its budget is spent on personnel. It is no wonder there is no money for proper training.

Yet another problem is that according to world standards the average age of your fighting troops should be approximately 21 years. The average age in South Africa is above 35. And the reason? It is as a result of the integration process. This is the explanation that was given and however, we must, be honest with one another and admit that the integration process was not as successful as it was generally proclaimed and said to be.

Another major source of concern in the army is that the battle readiness of 25% of our infantry units is less than 50%. There are even units that are only about 20% prepared for battle. I must say to the hon Minister, this is evident of only one thing - poor discipline and poor command and command control.

I unequivocally want to say to the hon Minister that the South African army makes the whole Defence Force appear shabby, and the hon Minister will have to act quickly. The hon Minister has dedicated more than 80% of his speech here to the involvement of the Defence Force in Africa and even announced that the Government has decided progressively to scale down the involvement of the Defence Force in our country over the next five years in order to make our resources available for peace missions in Africa.

The hon Minister is really saying that Africa is more important than South Africa to the Defence Force. I want to warn the hon Minister and the Government: Be careful that the Congo and other parts of Africa do not become the Vietnam of South Africa.

This brings me to the commandos. The scaling down of the domestic Defence Force provides a good reason for why the commandos should actually now be expanded. The phasing out of the commandos is wrong and a strategic error. The costs attached to the commandos are about R110 million per year. [Interjections.] It is a cheap price to pay for safeguarding rural areas, but above all a cheap price to pay for having a force to fall back on.

It is the commandos that are called up when assistance is required at the Cricket World Cup. It is the commandos that are called up when assistance is required at international conferences.]

What are the reasons, according to the Minister, for abolishing of the commandos: ``Commandos are white structures who operate against black people, therefore they are to be abolished’’.

I want to say to the hon Minister: Since 1996, the commandos conducted about 260 000 actions. These were actions like road-blocks and search operations. In the seven years since 1996 only 30 criminal cases were opened against members of the commandos after such operations. In only three of these cases were the culprits found guilty.

These figures must be compared to the cases of racism in the Defence Force as a whole, like the murders at the Tempe base and similar incidents in the police. The Defence Force and the police were not abolished after those incidents.

Ek wil vir die agb Minister sê die kritiek teen die kommando’s is onbillik, onregverdig en ongevraagd. Dit is lede wat ‘n diens aan Suid-Afrika lewer en wat gesteun behoort te word. Dit is lede wat ook misdaad in Suid-Afrika bekamp. Dankie, Voorsitter. [Tyd verstreke.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[I would like to say to the hon Minister that the criticism against the commandos is unfair and uncalled for. These are members who deliver a service to South Africa and should be supported. These are members who also combat crime in South Africa. Thank you, Chairperson. [Time expired.]]

Mr L N DIALE: Thank you, Deputy Chairperson and hon Minister of Defence, Comrade Mosiuoa Lekota. I want to acknowledge the presence of our glorious army, the SA National Defence Force. [Applause.]

Ke leboga go tšeya karolo mo ngangišanong ye ya Sekhwama sa Masole. [I have pleasure in participating in this Defence Vote.]

Deputy Chairperson, in many countries across the globe the social welfare and care of those who served their countries during times of strife and conflict have been the responsibility of the state. The nature of assistance given to war veterans has taken on various forms such as pensions, education, medical care and employment opportunities.

Let me emphasise the challenges facing our own SA National Defence Force. Over the past eight years, the SA National Defence Force has set about trying to build an integrated Defence Force, a new military culture and policies appropriate to democratic society.

One of the crucial challenges of our democracy was the integration of seven different military formations into a single SA National Defence Force, representative of the demographics of the country. It also meant that training had to be uniform, with a code of conduct and uniformity of purpose. The process of demobilisation was, to some extent, dependent upon whether force members were able to reintegrate successfully into society. It has to be noted though that former combatants have enormous difficulties in finding employment because of lack of skills and education, or as a result of ill-health and psychological problems.

I would like to remind this august House that whilst we all, both black and white, fought for bringing about the political liberation of this country there is a component of combatants within our society which played a more significant role - the soldiers. These soldiers, many of whom were serving in the SANDF as well as those who have been integrated from the liberation movements, namely Umkhonto weSizwe and the Azanian Peoples Organisation, have since resigned or have been demobilised. However, I would like to make a special plea to all who sit here today, and those South Africans listening, that we should consider these men and women, lest we forget their contributions. Can we acknowledge via the Defence Budget their sacrifices and their commitment to the people of this country?

The ANC’s 51st National Conference held last December resolved as follows:

That urgent attention be paid to the reskilling, development and integration into society of ex-combatants of the liberation struggle, ex- SADF and ex-SANDF personnel, veterans and the youth on a multipronged basis involving relevant departments and stakeholders in civil society.

That there is a need to explore the extension of medical services through South African Military Health Services to members of former liberation forces and to expedite the implementation of laws enacted to facilitate access to pensions for the nonstatutory forces’ members.

I need to remind this House that, as liberation forces fighting and engaging the oppressor, many combatants were denied the basic necessities such as medical aid. Many of these selfless soldiers were spread all over the country and the continent, and some were even abroad fighting in the trenches; fighting for freedom and for the total liberation of our country from the injustices of apartheid.

Today we rejoice in our liberation and freedom. However, this rejoicing comes at a price. Many of these selfless combatants are currently homeless people without the necessary shelter of a home or the necessary health services such as medical aid. Presently, no organised social welfare services are rendered to the former members of nonstatutory forces. This is because they have no fixed place of abode and do not have a source of income since the Special Pensions Act only caters for those who are over 60 years of age.

Hon Minister and hon members, surely, such a situation demands that a comprehensive and needs-driven service is rendered to former nonstatutory forces veterans. We appear to be lagging behind in fulfilling the resolutions adopted at the ANC National Conference in Stellenbosch.

Another crucial issue I wish to highlight is that of the special pension for nonstatutory forces. Once more, we commend this Parliament for passing the Special Pensions Act of 1996, which provides for pensions to be paid to ex-combatants, activists of the anti-apartheid liberation struggle. The aim was to provide some compensation to those who fought against apartheid and who were unable to make adequate pension provision. It is essential that these pension payouts take into account not only the service period when these combatants joined the SA National Defence Force in 1994, but also for the period when these combatants joined their respective liberation movements.

Hon Minister, a question that needs to be asked in the light of the serious circumstances facing many former combatants is this: Why should the members who need the money now wait until they are 60 years of age to access it? Why can’t they receive the money now to invest it as they deem fit? There needs to be a better understanding of the plight and needs of veterans. The argument goes that many MK military veterans are men and women who were prepared to fight to their death for the liberation of their country. The Government and communities have therefore to ensure that these heroes and heroines receive the care, support and appreciation which they have earned in their service to this country.

In keeping with this need to redress past injustices, may we in the ANC commend the Cabinet’s decision on the approval of South Africa as the next host of the General Assembly of the World Veteran Federation to be held in December 2003. It is hoped that this forum will enable all to formulate appropriate policies, benefits and programmes that would seek to enhance the lives of veterans. I thank you.

Ke le leboga ka kudu. [I thank you very much.] [Applause.]

Miss S RAJBALLY: Malibongwe igama lamakhosikazi! [Praise the name of the women!] Deputy Chair, hon Minister, hon Deputy Minister, it is comforting to note that we have a strong body of defence securing the security of the South African people.

The objectives of the SANDF display this security in marking the sector’s duties as being to defend against aggression, promote security and support the people in South Africa in the many ways it has undertaken to do so.

The MF applauds the department for its many rescue missions, such as the 24- day rescue mission in the Antarctica mid-last year. It was, however, reported mid-last year that only 3 000 out of 76 000 soldiers of the South African army could be deployed as many were unfit or too old and only four tanks of our 168 tanks could be used in action. HIV/Aids has also been reported to have infected 60% of soldiers, with seven out of ten deaths in the army being Aids-related.

This is extremely distressing, noting the importance these soldiers play in the defence of the South African people. It is hoped that the budget allocated to this department for this financial year will be utilised effectively to better the mentioned statistics.

Training should be intensified to ensure the fitness of our soldiers, with regular medical checks. We should perhaps borrow training strategies from countries displaying a stronger defence force to do so.

It appears as if HIV/Aids has not spared any faculty. The MF feels that the department should embark on an initiative with the Department of Health to reduce statistics of HIV/Aids infected soldiers. Aids is weakening our economy, and now our Defence Force. Members of the Defence Force should be motivated to manage their health and fitness effectively as their duty and responsibility to the Defence Force.

Further, the air force is also reported to have fuel shortages. The MF hopes that hese loopholes will be filled by the budget allocated and has confidence in the department’s commitment to delivery. Hon Minister, may you and you department and our Defence Force be blessed with the good health and strength so that our country can be well protected. [Applause.]

Mr E N MTHETHWA: Deputy Chairperson, perhaps one should start first and foremost by responding to the hon Schmidt and say to him that with regard to what he has raised about the Minister, I just want to remind him for the record that the Minister has appeared before the ethics committee, has apologised, was fined, and the matter has been concluded. It actually shows that he took the podium without any issue.

The ANC supports the Defence Budget Vote. At its 51st national conference in Stellenbosch, the ANC reiterated its resolve for a speedy transformation of the state machinery, and the SANDF is key to this project. The aim of the Department of Defence Human Resource Strategy 2010, is to ensure that the right quantities and quality of human resources are available in the right places at the right time and that they are effectively, efficiently and economically managed and administered.

The strategic goals of the Human Resources Strategy 2010 strategy are to rejuvenate the SANDF’s human resources composition with young, fit and healthy members who will fulfil operational utilisation needs; achieve an affordable HR composition; adequately resource and utilise the regular force and the reserve force; replace the current SANDF service system with a new service that will reduce personnel expenditure and optimise force level flexibility; improve HR service delivery and finally retain the required operational and functional expertise.

The integration of the former statutory and nonstatutory forces, many of which were once enemies, is a powerful illustration of the Government’s commitment to national reconciliation, unity and transformation. To be able to achieve this, the DoD needs funding to retrain, reorientate and provide intensive bridging and supplementary programmes for these forces. The overarching goal is to establish a new institution which is professionally efficient, effective and broadly representative. Representivity refers to the racial and gender composition of the army and to the fair integration and equitable representation of the constituent integration forces at all ranks.

Failure to meet this goal will critically undermine the legitimacy of the army in particular and the DoD in general. Thus far, the process of integration has not been easy or without hiccups. Numerous problems and grievances have emerged and at times have given rise to serious tension. Many of these difficulties were inevitable, given the political and logistical complexities of merging forces. Nevertheless, the DOD is committed through constructive interventions to properly manage and in future prevent such tensions.

The DOD acknowledges the responsibility to secure the legitimacy of the armed forces and as such is committed to the goal of overcoming the legacy of racial and gender discrimination. It will ensure that the army, and its leadership in particular, is broadly representative of the South African population to avoid or minimise the situation where largely white personnel, especially in the middle and higher ranks, are predominantly in the leadership of a predominantly black and African force.

The DOD acknowledges the right of women to serve in all ranks and positions, including combat roles. To be able to achieve the above responsibility, the DOD under the close leadership of the Minister of Defence has put in place programmes on education, training, development of black officers, service, women and other previously disadvantaged personnel. Appropriate strategies in this regard include special education and training courses, career development plans and re-orientation of recruitment and promotion systems. This is one area which needs fast tracking with specific reference to specialised mastering.

The DOD wants its HR composition to be competently managed. The organisation and the individual must have an HR composition which is effective, efficient, economical, equitable, motivated, productive and professional. It is, therefore, developing an institutional culture and an occupational ethos based on professional conduct as well as military professionalism in the case of uniformed personnel, service delivery, individual empowerment and pride in the organisation and its common values. These transcend all potential historically derived from devisive factors.

The DOD recognises that its output depends on the contribution of each individual as well as the collective efforts of the organisation, therefore individual empowerment. The determining factors of the Defence Force’s operational effectiveness, is that the bulk of its deployable personnel should be young, fit and healthy. The DOD and SANDF cannot afford to reach a situation where its deployment potential is impaired as a result of the continuously increasing age of the bulk of its deployable personnel. To address that, it is important for the SANDF to continue with its recruitment of young people, particularly in the range of ages 18 to 22 in order for them to be trained and become part of the new army. The existing scenario is that the army has members who - predominately are in the range of 30 to 60 years of age. This implies that the bulk of deployable personnel are ageing. These age parameters by far exceed the optimal international ranks age norm for lower ranks in particular. The effect of the age imbalance is that services, particularly in the South African army, carry significant numbers whose effective deployment potential is restricted as a result of their age.

In 1999, the health status of the SANDF personnel was registered as a strategic issue. There is a particular concern regarding the effect of the HIV/Aids pandemic, most prominently, on the external deployment capability of the army as well as the effect on the cost escalation of maintaining personnel who cannot be utilised. The most immediate health status challenges from the HR perspective includes the continuous, comprehensive, quantification of the pandemic.

In conclusion, accordingly, the South African army has been transformed from the former Big Brother in the region and continent to being a beachhead in the project of Africa’s regeneration. Therefore, its HR strategy has to take into cognisance this role. It is important to embrace this obligation and task which goes with our positive contribution on the continent, particularly peacekeeping efforts, because if any region is unstable in Africa, there will be no stability in South Africa. In fact, our country will be forced to contend with the heavy influx of people from their countries to ours. Inevitably, this will lead to unpredictable population density in the country, which will impact negatively on the reconstruction and development programme.

Mr P J NEFOLOVHODWE: Deputy Chairperson, I remember on Robben Island sitting and talking to comrades, who included the Minister of Defence, about how, after liberation, we would involve ourselves in matters concerning the African continent - how we should shoulder the responsibility of influencing thought processes to actualise Nkrumah’s dream of the United States of Africa.

I remember discussing sacrifices that were being made by the front line states, as well as the OAU, to get us free. We then committed ourselves, body and soul, to assist with the process leading to the emancipation of Africa. This would involve the formation of an African peacekeeping force to protect the hard-won freedom of African people.

Our Defence Force is on the road to actualising this dream. This is a dream of shaping a peaceful, developing Africa free from poverty, hunger and conflicts. Our Defence Force’s involvement in peacekeeping activities, whether in Burundi or the Democratic Republic of Congo, has the utmost blessing from AZAPO. To AZAPO, this is our duty, firstly, to ourselves as Africans, and, secondly, as human beings who cannot sit back when other human beings are suffering. [Applause.] Needless to state that Africa shouldered the responsibility to free us through the OAU Liberation Fund. It is indeed our turn to do those things we can to advance the African agenda.

Our country has proved that it is more than ready to serve Africa. Despite the legacy of apartheid and colonialism, in the short space of time - since the majority of our people assumed the responsibility of democratising the country - we have addressed ourselves boldly to the task of laying a foundation particularly for the African peacekeeping force. To the members of our armed forces, AZAPO supports you. We are proud of you. The way you serve your country and Africa makes us proud. AZAPO supports this Budget Vote. [Applause.]

Brig Gen P J SCHALKWYK: Deputy Chairperson, hon Minister, hon members, Chief of the SANDF, chiefs of staff and other senior officers present, due to the time constraint I would like only to address two specific grass- roots aspects.

In the first instance we have a Defence Force that is struggling to manage itself with its inherent problems and the financial constraints imposed on it. We must realise that during demobilisation there are three very relevant factors which must be borne in mind. Firstly, what are you going to do with your defence industries when there is no longer a requirement for their products? Secondly, what is the impact going to be on communities when military bases are closed down? Thirdly, and this is the one as far as I am concerned that is very relevant, how are we going to integrate our redundant soldiers into civil society?

The army specifically is sitting with a major problem. It is forced to spend a large chunk of its budget on unproductive soldiers. It is generally accepted that to keep 1 000 sick, lame and aged soldiers on full strength costs us in the region of R60 million annually. If we have 10 000 of these soldiers it would cost us R600 million. And this all comes from the defence budget.

This is not solely the problem of the army or the Defence Force. This is the state’s problem - it is a national problem. And the executive must attend to this. The Deputy Minister did address this in her speech, but it is important that we give impetus to it and monitor the progress made.

The second subject I wish to address is the case of military veterans. The assistance to veterans of MK and APLA has now been finalised. What remains to be attended to, is the plight of what I have defined as the neglected veterans who served in the old Union Defence Force - the hon Middleton is one of them - and the SADF, and in the TBVC forces. Most of them are destitute and without jobs. They spent years and years in the service of the government at the time with no opportunity to contribute to a pension fund, nor did they have the money to subscribe to a private annuity fund.

Minister, you and the chairperson of the defence portfolio committee have in this House acknowledged the existence of this problem. Minister, thank you for granting me an audience, and arranging for me to brief the Military Veterans Advisory Board on this matter. They have subsequently met with veterans in Kimberley and in Cape Town, and intend visiting groups in the Vaal Triangle, Port Elizabeth, Durban and Karoo.

Once they have gathered all the information the question that arises is, so what? They have done some very constructive work and must be complimented on it. Since these meetings - and this is very important, Minister - there has been no protest marches against the President, or against the Minister of Defence. But we have to do something with the information gathered. The advisory board can only advise, but it cannot resolve problems.

Minister, I would like to make a proposal to you to establish a dedicated office for these veterans. This office is to be similar to the office that served the MK veterans with similar functions. I know that you will tell me that there is a Veterans Administration Directorate, but I can assure you that with their present structures they will not be able to cope with this huge problem. Once this office is functioning I will feel that we have really achieved something important as far as these veterans are concerned.

Just finally, I would like also to mention that the conference of the 24th congress of the World Veterans Federation in December of this year will hopefully make more people aware of the plight of the veterans in South Africa and the world in general. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr G C OOSTHUIZEN: Thank you, Chairperson. In the beginning the hon Schalkwyk was also in the election mode, as I listened to him, but later on he made a valuable contribution and I’m pretty sure that he may be entertained in the proposals he made.

Voorsitter, ek het nou vanoggend die voorreg gehad om na die agbare Schmidt te luister. En ek wil dit nou hier sê dat hy ‘n baie verstandige man is as hy in ‘n komitee sit, maar die moment wanneer hy opstaan om te praat, gebeur daar iets met hom. Ek wil voorstel ons moet hom laat sit en praat in hierdie Raadsaal. [Tussenwerpsels.] Dis reg, dis reg, my vriend, want dan lewer hy goeie bydrae. Hoe meer ek na hom geluister het vandag, agb Voorsitter, hoe blyer was ek dat die DA nie die mag het om besluite in hierdie land te kan neem nie. Hoekom? Wel, ons sou totaal ‘n flentergat weermag hê. Dit sal niks beteken nie, want hulle wil nie ‘n sent spandeer om toerusting aan te koop nie. Nee, hulle wil nie toerusting aankoop nie en hulle ondersteun ook nie diplomatieke inisiatiewe om vrede in Afrika te kry nie. So, hulle bly maar getrou aan hulle “fight back campaign” en sê die konflik in Afrika kan aangaan, maar hy moet net nie na ons toe kom in Suid- Afrika nie. Ek wil vir hom sê, “Slaap lekker, Rip van Winkel. Jy gaan wakker word.” Want trouens, meneer die Voorsitter, hulle ondersteun aan die einde van die dag nie eens die begroting nie, want hulle is ``soft on security’’. Hulle was dit hulle lewe lank gewees. Hulle sal dit hulle lewe lank bly. [Tussenwerpsels.]

Baie dankie, my vriend. Ek gaan vir jou ‘n toespraak hou en as jy die verstand het om te luister na wat ons vir jou sê, mag jy dalk ‘n positiewe stap in jou lewe neem en mag jy dalk positief in hierdie land raak om ‘n beter horison te skep vir geslagte wat nog moet kom, Dominee. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Chairperson, now this morning I have had the privilege to listen to hon Schmidt. And I want to say here and now that he is a very sensible man when he sits in a committee, but the moment he gets up to speak something happens to him. I want to suggest that we allow him to sit and talk in this Chamber. [Interjections.] That is right, that is right, my friend, because then he makes valuable contributions. The more I listened to him today, hon Chairperson, the more pleased I was that the DA did not have the power to make decisions in this country. Why? Well, we would have an army which is in tatters altogether. It would be no good, because they do not want to spend a cent on buying equipment. No, they do not want to buy equipment, and they do not support the diplomatic initiatives for peace in Africa. Thus, they only remain true to their fight back campaign, and say that the conflict in Africa can continue, as long as it does not come to us in South Africa. I want to say to him: “Dream on, Rip van Winkle. You will have to wake up’’. Besides, Mr Chairman, at the end of the day they do not even support the budget, because they are soft on security. They have been like that all along. They will remain like that for the rest of their lives. [Interjections.]

Thank you very much, my friend. I will make a speech for you, and if you have the sense to listen to what we are saying to you, you might just take a positive step in your life and become positive about this country in order to create a better horizon for the generations still to come, Reverend. [Applause.]]

Reference was also made to the special defence packages by the Democratic Alliance. It was predictable. It’s an election thing. Cook it up, attack the Minister, link a lot of things together and here we are with a diabolic ANC. But what I did not hear them say is how the expenditure decreased on the SDP because of the strengthening of the rand. Nee, nou’s julle stil. Dit pas julle om stil te bly. Maar as die rand verswak, wat julle wil hê moet gebeur, want julle is nie patrioties in hierdie land nie, dan roep julle perskonferensies, dan vertel julle hoeveel miljoene verkwis en verkwansel hierdie Regering. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[No, now you are quiet. It suits you to keep quiet. But if the rand weakens, which is what you want to happen, because you are not patriotic in this country, then you call press conferences, and then you report on how many millions are squandered and thrown away by this Government.]

Let’s put the SDP into perspective. The South African limited acquisition of defence equipment has attracted much attention - more than often, very ill-informed, especially from the DA. The SDP only benefits the navy and the air force - and this, while one of the major components of the Defence Force, the SA Army, has an urgent need for a wide range of modern equipment. It is important to understand the reasoning behind this ANC-led Government’s decision to recapitalise the Defence Force, as well as the intended use of that capital equipment.

The fact is that in the final years of apartheid we saw and witnessed increasingly intense civil disobedience and low levels of guerilla activity in South African townships. The consequence was that the budgets were then shifted to favour the army, but more especially the police, and then more especially the counter-revolutionary social expenditure that we arranged for them.

The net result was that the main equipment of the navy and the air force was willingly allowed to be run down. I say this, because the DA is continuing in their destructive fight back campaign whenever they refer to the SDP. Not only must we question their logic and their patriotism, but we must challenge that. They should in this election campaign answer, to themselves and to this country, whether the armed forces are sufficiently equipped to play the role they have to play. We all know that the answer to that is no. But we also know that the DA is also not equipped to be a government - not by far. [Applause.]

The DA projects itself as the safe haven of classic liberal values. The truth, however, in this debate is that the DA reinforced itself as a small, minor opposition party, stripped of its moral rectitude, complaining forever from the sidelines. [Applause.]

In the final analysis of the SDP, it must be said that the South African Government has driven a hard bargain with the defence manufacturers to obtain weapons at a reasonable price with exceptional offsets for South Africa. The value of counter-investments can never be questioned. Not even the DA, if they have 1% of the economic brains will question that. But they are so immersed their fight-back campaign that I’m afraid that gang will never be able to understand this. [Interjections.] I’ve now paid enough attention to you.

For a country just nine years into the open season of democracy we are not only doing well, we are also setting examples of international standard. The world and current situations are dynamic. They’re not cast in stone. No prediction or analysis of danger is static. Let me say, danger lurks everywhere and can strike at anytime. No nation can afford the luxury of being unprepared. We have a duty to plan and budget for the rising levels of insecurity in the world and specifically in our region. And this reality the DA will never be able to escape.

At the centre of this debate is whether this country should have a defence force. Undoubtedly the answer is yes, because we carry the responsibility of maintaining law and order in our country, the region and on our continent. This reality compels us to look at how the Defence Force should be equipped and funded to fulfil that responsibility. If we are to protect our shores from human sharks intent on bleeding our sea harvest and we intend to fulfil the role we are playing in Burundi, the DRC and elsewhere, we must accept the reality of our time. And this reality is that the levels of insecurity have risen throughout the world. The macro picture of defence force planning and resource allocation starts with a percentage of the GDP which is devoted to the Defence Force. We’ve heard speaker after speaker today saying that it’s insufficient. The reality is that in real terms we are at the level of 1975. The adjustment in the Defence allocation started in 1990 and that was long before the dawn of our new democracy. And then in 1990 we anticipated the resolution of South Africa’s internal political problems by shifting the budget. What an error of judgement!

The dawn of our democracy, almost a decade ago, bears witness to the fact that the global balance of forces have changed remarkably over the last decade. In fact, the recent emergence of the African Union and Nepad are placing further opportunities and challenges before us. South Africa has a role to play in the overall development in Africa and of our region. In fact, the dawning of our democracy makes South Africa vastly more powerful in the region and in the world.

The successes of this ANC-led Government’s domestic and foreign policies have resulted in wide involvement in peace missions in Africa. The Defence Force is and will remain an invaluable instrument of the state, helping to ensure peacekeeping, peace supporting and peacemaking on the African continent. We, as the ANC, are proud that the Defence Force is on the march. It’s on the march for peace. It’s on the march for development and it’s on the march for prosperity. [Applause.]

Participation in peace missions comes at a price, because not all expenses are covered by the United Nations and other sources. But despite these expenses, peace missions and peace building are much cheaper than outright war. This, these people will never understand. This is why we say that these peace missions as well as the Defence Force as a whole should be measured by the results achieved rather than by the amount of money we budget. And I’m calling for an increase in that budget that we have. It is in this context that we have to address one of the common misconceptions and misperceptions regarding peace missions. Peace missions are relatively free of risk - this is a perception - are in fact just a sort of stepping up of policing activity in another foreign country. We should know that this is not the case. There are many risks in peace missions. They usually take place in highly charged situations where the peacekeepers are often hugely outnumbered and far from normal resources of combat, logistics and support. Peacekeepers are liable to be confronted by many ambiguous and potentially explosive situations and we as a country expect of them to act and react in such a manner that we continue to contribute towards diplomatic conflict resolution initiatives.

In fact, our expectations are great because the success of the Defence Force operations could provide disproportionately huge positive results in our country. In short, the defence system must always be attempting to sense the right direction for the future in order to achieve the purpose for which it exists. What we as politicians ought to do is to ensure the correct balance between defence policy, the situation on the ground and the situation internationally. We have to budget sufficiently to ensure that we have sufficient resources and equipment.

The African Union and Nepad signal Africa’s true emancipation from outside interests. It would therefore be ironic to leave the peace and security agenda in the hands of non-Africans. The growing consensus is that Nepad needs a bodyguard to protect and support it. And this urges us to deal with the levels of insecurity and insufficient budgets. If this means that we have to make bold decisions - let’s do so.

I’m proposing that we relook at the percentage of the GDP we allocate to Defence, peacebuilding and peacekeeping operations in Africa. This would … [Interjections.] … Mr Chairperson, if people don’t understand what you say you will never convince them. Sir, we have to turn the tide. And by turning the tide the whole of Africa will eventually inherit the virtues of democracy, justice, peace and of harmony. This will make us first - not last. Thank you. [Applause.] The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: Deputy Chairperson, in responding I would like to recall the presence of the hon Norman Middleton here, and the point he made, which I think is vital for our country to keep in mind, and that is that the country must always be ready to defend itself. There can be no compromise on the question that the country must, day and night, be ready, be prepared. We cannot dabble with and risk defence.

The hon speaker who followed me here made the point that a fair amount of defence expenditure has gone to the Strategic Defence Package. That has not been an accident of history. This House has determined the needs of the country with regard to defence, social expenditure, etc, and it has placed an obligation on the executive to deal with the distribution of the available resources, to address those needs of the country. The amount of resources available for defence purposes could only enable the Defence Force to address the needs of the navy and the air force.

There is a calculated risk built into this, because the command structures of the Defence Force realised that, given what was available, they could only partially address the needs of the Defence Force. It was therefore tactfully and consciously decided to allow our landward defences to hold out and prioritise these other areas. This explains why over the past few years whatever allocations have come to defence have addressed these areas of the Strategic Defence Package, the Air Force and the Navy.

This does not mean that the command structures of the National Defence Force are not alert to the landward needs that exist. Had this country been in a better position, had it had more resources to devote to defence, we would have simultaneously addressed the landward defences. The command structures of the SA National Defence Force are anxious to address the issue of landward defences, but Cabinet and the Government, can only allocate at the present time as it has done.

I raised the issue in the main address here this morning. This country is spending 1,6% of its GDP on defence. I want to give members of the House some idea of what the situation is, even in the post-1989, post Berlin Wall collapse period. A country such as the United States, which is really threatened by nobody, as things now stand, spends 3% of its GDP on defence. The United Kingdom spends 2,4% of its GDP on defence. Egypt spends 3,2% of its GDP on defence. Nigeria spends 4,5% on defence. It is one of the key peace support and peace enforcement agencies of our continent in West- Africa. Nigerians are devoting 4,5% of their GDP to peace support operations in Liberia, Sierra Leone and Ivory Coast. Algeria spends 6,8% on defence. Botswana, nextdoor to us, spends 5,5% on defence purposes. Namibia, our sister country, spends 3,6% on defence. South Africa spends 1,6% on defence.

If you look at the obligations we are asking the men and women of the command structures of the National Defence Force to improvise on, in order to meet the missions that this country has to meet across the continent, it is difficult to understand how they are able, so tactfully and efficiently, to strategise, to keep that critical balance that enables the Defence Force to continue to meet its obligations. But it is because they also understand the logic that guides this nation, that there are critical social needs to be met, needs in other areas, because of our country’s history. A point has been made by one of the speakers here, hon Groenewald.

Hy het dit reggekry om hier te kom, lekker te preek en grappies te maak oor die weermag, en dan uit te stap. Hy het my geheimsinnig ‘n briefie gestuur en gesê hy vra om verskoning maar hy kan nie wag om na my antwoord te luister nie. [He succeeded in coming here, sermonising and cracking jokes about the Defence Force, and then walk out of here. He mysteriously sent me a note and said he apologised but he could not wait in order to listen to my reply.]

What was his argument? His issue is that in my speech this morning I said that we should prioritise work in the subregion at the expense of South Africa. This was his point. He said: ``I warn you: You must be careful that the DRC does not become the Vietnam of South Africa.’’ Well, he speaks Afrikaans most of the time.

I wondered to myself whether he just read that phrase and never really worried about what it meant. Vietnam was an imperialist war, by a nation occupying another country, not invited by that country. They were there for purposes completely in conflict with the purposes for which we are in the DRC. We have been invited by the people of the DRC. We did n’t decided to invade that country; we have been invited by them to come and help them calm the situation and create an atmosphere in which they can therefore negotiate a settlement and implement decisions they, the Congolese, have taken. Indeed, the Congolese have come to this country, to Sun City, Johannesburg, Pretoria, to sit here and say: ``Give us an opportunity, give us a room, to sit and negotiate.’’ We are there in a completely different manner.

This empty warning, that we must be careful that it must not become the Vietnam of South Africa, has no place. It is rhetoric which means nothing. I want to take the point a little further. When we consider the issue of stabilising our region, we must consider the implications of not doing so. Not long ago, South Africa was playing against one of the countries of our region. When we went into the stadium, one of the South Africans who was in our company said: ``There are more people from this other country here than South Africans, and yet it is our national squad versus their national squad.’’

The reason was that large numbers of the people who were in that stadium were here as genuine refugees from the conflict in their country, anxious that peace must return to their country, so that they, like we ourselves in the years of exile, may find their way back to their homeland. And they were there supporting their country, even though they were in South Africa. They were there supporting their country to show their ongoing patriotism and loyalty to that country. We have an obligation to assist with creating a situation in their country that will enable them to go back, not only for their sake, but most importantly, for the sake of South Africans. When you budget here for health, for prisons, for hospitals, you don’t budget for refugees - you budget on the basis of your own populace. Yet once these people are here, if they get arrested and go to prison, the prison population increases in numbers. Once they are in prison, the food supplies in those prisons must cover them. The medical supplies in those hospitals must cover them. Indeed, you must also have free transport for them if you are going to take them back.

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF COMMITTEES: Hon Minister, wind up. Your time has expired, but I will give you a few moments to wind up.

The MINISTER OF DEFENCE: A few more minutes. I think the point has been made. In closing, I do want to pay tribute, though, to the Defence Secretary, to the Chief of the South African National Defence Force, to the command structure of the Defence Force, and to the men and women of the Defence Force. I think that we must pay tribute to those South Africans who have been deployed in those missions and have come back, and to those who are deployed there today, and to those who will be deployed in future.

As the hon Pandelani Nefolovhodwe has said, it has always been an idea that seized many of our generation, that when the right time comes, we will contribute to the unification of the people of our continent. We will create an atmosphere of peace and stability, that, led as we are at the present time by President Thabo Mbeki, Africa may be able to chart a path on the Nepad basis towards peace and prosperity. I thank you. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON DEFENCE - STUDY TOUR TO JAPAN

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, I move: That the Report be noted.

Agreed to.

The House adjourned at 12:17. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

Papers:

1. The Minister of Finance:

 (a)     Annual  Report  of  the  South  African  Reserve  Bank  -  Bank
     Supervision Department for 2002.


 (a)    Government Notice No 743  published  in  Government  Gazette  No
     25050 dated 31 May 2003: Appointment  of  members  of  the  Amnesty
     Unit, in terms of section 23 of the Exchange  Control  Amnesty  and
     Amendment of Taxation Laws Act, 2003 (Act No 12 of 2003).

1. The Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development:

 Strategic Framework for the Department of  Justice  and  Constitutional
 Development for 2003-2006.

COMMITTEE REPORTS:

National Assembly:

1. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Safety and Security on International Convention on Prevention and Punishment of Crimes against Internationally Protected Persons, including Diplomatic Agents, dated 11 June 2003:

   The Portfolio Committee on Safety and Security, having considered the request for approval by Parliament of the International Convention on Prevention and Punishment of Crimes against Internationally Protected Persons, including Diplomatic Agents, referred to it, and having conferred with the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development, recommends that the House, in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, approve the said Convention.

Request to be considered.

1. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Safety and Security on International Convention Against the Taking of Hostages, dated 11 June 2003:

   The Portfolio Committee on Safety and Security, having considered the request for approval by Parliament of the International Convention Against the Taking of Hostages, referred to it, and having conferred with the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development, recommends that the House, in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, approve the said Convention.

Request to be considered.

1. Seventeenth Report of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts, dated 18 February 2003:

 The Standing Committee on Public Accounts, having sent a delegation  of
 nine members to the Cape Town International Airport,  the  Customs  and
 Excise Unit and the Cape Town Harbour on an Oversight Exercise, reports
 as follows:


 Delegation:


 Mr F Beukman -    New NP (Committee Chairperson)
 Mr L Chiba   -    ANC
 Mr B Nair    -    ANC
 Mr P Gerber  -    ANC
 Mr T E Vezi  -    IFP
 Ms N Hlangwana    -     ANC
 Mr B Kannemeyer   -     ANC
 Ms K Mothoagae    -     ANC
 Mr R Mofokeng     -     ANC


 Secretariat - Mr L Pakati and Ms N Madide.
 Researcher - B Letompa.
 Auditor-General's Office - Mr A van Dyk and Mr D Titus.


 A.     Introduction


     A resolution on Sars was adopted by the  Committee  on  17  October
     2001.  The   resolution   identified   various   internal   control
     weaknesses,  which  were  addressed  by  recommendations  for   the
     improvement of processes and systems. As a  result,  the  Committee
     decided to visit the two border posts.


 B.     Purpose of visits


     Visit to Cape Town International Airport and Cape Town Harbour:


     *  As part of its  oversight  function,  the  Committee  wanted  to
          proactively  determine  corrective  measures  to  address  the
          shortcomings reported by the Auditor-General surrounding  cash
          controls, duties and fuel levies,  warehouse  control  systems
          and management in general.


     *  To provide the Committee with insight  into  the  processes  and
          work  methods  with  regard  to  the  internal  controls   and
          functions at border posts.


     *  To identify risk areas within Customs  and  Excise  which  would
          result in noncompliance with the Act.


     The Office of the Auditor-General  briefed  the  Committee  members
     prior to the visit, with background information and information  on
     risk areas.


 C.     Cape Town International Airport


     The Committee's  first  destination  was  Cape  Town  International
     Airport (CTIA). The group was well received by the  following  Sars
     management team:


     General Manager     -    Mr V Shabalala
     Branch Manager      -    Mr J Malgas
     National Customs Expert from Head Office  -     Mr F Versfeld


     The branch manager briefed the delegation  on  the  activities  and
     processes that are followed at CTIA  with  regard  to  the  Customs
     Unit. Members were allowed to visit and inspect the  warehouse  and
     the cashier's office.


 D.     Concerns raised by members


     The  following  concerns,  relating  to  the  bill  of  entry,  the
     clearance  period,  clearing  agencies  and   customs   and   state
     warehouses, were raised by members:


     1. The first concern was around the reason why technology  was  not
          utilised more to facilitate and improve the processes that had
          to be followed, with specific reference being  made  to  donor
          goods. The delegation was told by the branch manager that  his
          unit was in the process of rolling out an electronic system to
          improve service delivery.


     2. A concern was  raised  regarding  the  extent  to  which  actual
          inspections were performed  to  verify  the  contents  of  the
          containers against their documentation. The delegation learned
          from Mr Shabalala that approximately 400 to  500  transactions
          are performed on a daily basis, in respect  of  which  between
          two and five per cent inspections coverage are achieved.  This
          unit was in the process  of  appointing  24  additional  staff
          members at the location, as at the time there were not  enough
          staff members available to perform such inspections.


     3. The view was expressed  that  if  inspections  performed  ranged
          between  two  and  five  per  cent  on  400   to   500   daily
          transactions, it was clearly not enough. Furthermore, if  Sars
          has promised to collect R10 for every R1 spent, why were  more
          people not employed to improve the inspection  rate?  On  this
          issue, the Committee was told that human  resources  shortages
          were being managed actively.


     4.  Another  concern  related  to  instances  where  vehicles  were
          hijacked in South Africa and exported  to  Australia,  because
          Sars (Customs) did not check  exports.  In  this  regard,  the
          Committee suggested that Sars should become more  involved  in
          the inspection of  exported  goods  by  investing  in  hi-tech
          equipment to improve the number of inspections executed and to
          detect stolen goods before they leave our shores.


 E.     Recommendations


     1. The Committee noted that controls  over  reports  for  ships  or
          aircraft inwards or outwards  were  inadequate.  Documentation
          such as inward reports  were  not  submitted  to  Customs  and
          Excise before the arrival of a vessel,  resulting  in  Customs
          and Excise not being aware of the vessel's arrival.


          The Committee recommends that stricter controls be implemented
          in respect of inward/outward reports.


     2. The Committee noted that unresolved differences existed  between
          the bills of entry and  manifests.  The  Committee  recommends
          that Customs and Excise attend to this as a matter of  urgency
          and report back to it, within two months of  the  adoption  of
          this report by the National Assembly, on progress made in this
          regard.


     3. The Committee noted that controls over removal  in  bond/removal
          in transit were inadequate. The Committee recommends that when
          goods are removed to Botswana, Lesotho, Namibia and Swaziland,
          a removal-in-bond certificate be passed at Customs and Excise,
          indicating the final country of destination.  These  RIBs/RITs
          should be verified to ensure that the  goods  have  in  actual
          fact left the country and  have  not  been  entered  for  home
          consumption without paying duties.


          Furthermore,  the  Committee  noted  that  controls  over  the
          receipt of terminal vessel out-turn (TVORs)  were  inadequate.
          The Committee recommends that this be addressed as a matter of
          urgency, as TVORs could be  used  by  Customs  and  Excise  as
          additional control measures to ensure that all  inward/outward
          reports have been received, thus  ensuring  that  Customs  and
          Excise are aware of all vessels entering  the  control/harbour
          area.


     4. The Committee noted that Break Bulk Goods were not acquitted  at
          all. The Committee recommends that Customs and  Excise  verify
          the bills of entry and acquit them with the manifest to ensure
          that they are correct and correspond with what the  shipmaster
          declared as having been discharged.


          However, the Committee noted that insufficient control existed
          over redirections or transhipments. It is therefore  important
          that, after the arrival of the  goods,  the  importer/clearing
          agent  should  either  decide  to  off-load  at  the   initial
          destination (ie Cape Town Harbour, where the duties are to  be
          paid) or to redirect the goods to  another  harbour  (ie  from
          Cape Town to Durban, where the duties will be paid).


     5. The Committee noted that control over the receipt  of  manifests
          was inadequate. Where control is not adequate,  penalties  are
          not levied, resulting in revenue being lost.


          The Committee recommends that the manifests be  entered  in  a
          manifest register to ensure that the  acquittal  documentation
          is received within  40  days.  If  not,  penalties  should  be
          levied.


     6. The Committee noted that the bills of entry  were  not  checked.
          The  Committee   recommends   that   tariff   codes,   weight,
          description of the goods and the calculation of VAT and duties
          be checked and verified to ensure correctness.  The  Committee
          also recommends that detected differences be addressed with  a
          Voucher of Correction and that duties be collected.


     7. The Committee noted  that  Sars  was  relying  on  the  clearing
          agent's documentation. This was largely due to the  fact  that
          Sars did  not  have  enough  personnel  available  to  perform
          physical inspections. If inspections performed ranges  between
          two and five per  cent  on  400  to  500  daily  transactions,
          clearly  not  enough  coverage  was  achieved.  The  Committee
          recommends that Sars consider at least  using  Portnet  as  an
          agent in addressing its own personnel shortages.  Furthermore,
          the Committee recommends that Sars become more involved in the
          inspection of exported goods by investing in hi-tech equipment
          to improve the number of inspections executed  and  to  detect
          stolen goods before they leave South Africa's shores.


     8. The Committee also noted that inland border posts were big  risk
          areas and that  the  conditions  under  which  border  control
          personnel worked were unacceptable. The  Committee  recommends
          that more resources be made available to inland  border  posts
          and that the conditions for the personnel be upgraded,  within
          the financial capacity of Sars.


     9. The Committee, with regard to stop notes, noted that:


          (a) Outstanding stop notes were not followed up.


          (b) Controls over stop notes and registers were inadequate, as
              stop notes were removed from the registry.  As  a  result,
              the register was  incomplete  and  no  reliance  could  be
              placed on the completeness of the stop notes.


          (c) Insufficient documentation was attached to the stop notes.


          (d)  Insufficient  segregation  of  duties  over  stop   notes
              existed.


          The Committee recommends that:


          *    This  risk  be  adequately  evaluated  and  addressed  by
              obtaining additional manpower.


          *    Access  to  the  register  be  restricted  to  authorised
              personnel only and that each entry be  made  under  strict
              supervision.
          *   After stop notes have  been  finalised  and  inspected,  a
              brief report be compiled, indicating the results  of  such
              inspection, and be attached to the stop notes.


     10. The Committee noted that the seven-day grace period,  in  which
          the agent/importer should settle his or  her  account  of  the
          first deferment,  overlaps  with  the  starting  of  the  next
          deferment. Furthermore, the Committee noted that no bonds were
          obtained to cover the deferment of VAT, although this makes up
          the greater amount of  the  deferment  scheme.  The  Committee
          recommends that this matter be addressed urgently, as the bond
          held  would  not  be  sufficient,  should  the  agent/importer
          default on the payment date.


     Cape Town Harbour (fuel levies)


     Observations and recommendations


     11. The Committee  noted  that  current  losses  claimed  were  not
          checked and reconciled. The  Committee  recommends  that  Sars
          address this deficiency as a matter of urgency, as the  losses
          incurred would reduce duties payable to Sars.


     12. The Committee noted that controls over documents and  schedules
          were inadequate, thus leading to an account not having all the
          supporting  documentation  attached  to  it.   The   Committee
          recommends that Customs and Excise ensure that all  supporting
          documentation is attached before an account  is  accepted  for
          payment.


     13. The Committee noted that no audits were performed  at  the  oil
          companies. The Committee recommends that audits  be  performed
          by Sars  to  ensure  that  the  production  schedules,  losses
          claimed, systems in use, etc, are correct so as  to  enable  a
          certain level of reliance to be placed on the  correctness  of
          the accounts as received.


     14. The Committee noted that  it  was  not  possible  to  reconcile
          consolidated accounts, due  to  oil  companies  borrowing  oil
          supplies from each other in the case of shortages.


     15.  Furthermore,  the  complexity  of  fuel  accounts   makes   it
          extremely difficult to verify, and  Sars  does  not  have  the
          expertise, which makes it nearly  impossible  to  verify  fuel
          accounts.


     Cape Town Harbour (excise duties)


     Observations and recommendations


     16. The Committee noted  that  the  control  over  bonds  and  bond
          amounts were inadequate, as bonds held were in most cases  not
          sufficient. The bond register was also not regularly  updated,
          thus making reliance there impossible. The Committee is of the
          opinion that the actual bond should be sufficient to cover  at
          least six months' average duty. Furthermore, bonds should also
          be revised annually and originals kept in a safe.


     17. The Committee noted that there was little or no segregation  of
          duties, as one official would be responsible for receiving the
          account, checking the account and receiving the  payment.  The
          Committee recommends that  duties  be  segregated  as  far  as
          possible to ensure greater accountability and control.


     18.  The  Committee  noted  that  controls  over  the   DA32s   and
          information  schedules   attached   to   the   accounts   were
          inadequate.
     19. The Committee noted that  the  supporting  schedules  for  each
          DA32 were lacking or not attached,  making  it  impossible  to
          verify their correctness.


     20. The Committee also noted that losses were not verified  due  to
          the fact that supporting documentation to substantiate  losses
          claimed were  not  attached,  thus  making  it  impossible  to
          verify. The  Committee  recommends  that  Customs  and  Excise
          ensure that all supporting documentation is attached before an
          account is accepted for payment.


     21. The Committee noted that excise inspections  were  not  carried
          out on a regular basis, and that excise inspections  were  not
          done at large companies such as SAB, due to the complexity  of
          the task at hand.  The  Committee  cannot  over-emphasise  the
          urgent and increasing need for officials to intensify physical
          checks to curb the smuggling of  goods,  and  recommends  that
          inspections be carried out to  ensure  that  the  manufacturer
          comply with the Customs and Excise Act so that all productions
          are declared and duties are paid.


     Cape Town Harbour (State Warehouse)


     The State Warehouse is a premise that is provided for by the  state
     for the deposit of goods, the safekeeping thereof  and  the  duties
     thereon, thus  ensuring  compliance  with  the  provisions  of  the
     Customs and Excise Act. If due clearance is not affected within  28
     days, the  containers  are  removed  to  the  State  Warehouse  and
     offloaded. The goods are recorded in  a  State  Warehouse  register
     and a reference number is assigned. The owners  of  the  cargo  are
     informed of the location of their  goods,  as  well  as  to  effect
     clearance  thereof.  The  goods  will  only  be  cleared  from  the
     premises if the appropriate rental has  been  paid.  In  the  event
     where the goods are not cleared within  the  prescribed  time,  the
     goods are either placed on  auction  or  destroyed,  in  line  with
     current legislation.


     Concerns


     An explanation was sought with regard to the  transparency  in  the
     process of auctioning uncleared goods.  The  explanation  was  that
     uncleared goods may only be sold after  three  months.  Sars  (Cape
     Town) has to obtain approval from its Head Office.  After  approval
     has been granted, the  auction  is  advertised  in  the  Government
     Gazette and in  Sars'  newspapers  two  weeks  in  advance,  and  a
     private auctioneer is appointed.


     An explanation was also sought as  to  whether  Sars  had  a  fraud
     prevention plan. The explanation  was  that  all  fraud  cases  are
     reported to the Sars Head  Office.  Various  committees  have  been
     appointed, tasked to assist in preventing fraud, such as:


     *  Penalty Committee  -  to  review  all  mitigation  forwarded  by
          clients.


     *  Tariff Committee - to ensure correct classification of goods.


     *  Valuation Committee -  to  ensure  that  the  correct  value  is
          declared at the time of import, which in turn  influences  the
          duty payable.


 F.     Conclusion


     The chairperson concluded the visit by expressing his  appreciation
     on behalf of the Committee to the  Sars  management  team  for  the
     opportunity  to  visit   the   Sars   facilities   at   Cape   Town
     International Airport, Cape  Town  Harbour  (State  Warehouse)  and
     Sars Head Office, and for  the  programme  that  was  presented  to
     members.


     A word of thanks also goes to DFID for  sponsoring  the  visit  and
     ensuring its success.


 Report to be considered.

1. Eighteenth Report of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts, dated 25 February 2003:

 The  Standing  Committee  on  Public  Accounts,  having   visited   the
 Magistrate's  Court  in  Umlazi  (KZN)  and  the  Master's  Office   in
 Pietermaritzburg, reports as follows:


 A.     Purpose


     The  purpose  of  the  visit  to  the  Department  of  Justice  and
     Constitutional Development by Committee  members  was  to  interact
     with  the  Department  in  pursuing  particular  matters  contained
     within their finance reports.


 B.     Background


     The Committee undertook the visits to selected  courts  during  the
     week of 1 November 2002. The visits formed part  of  the  oversight
     function that the Committee exercises  to  ensure  that  government
     policies are timeously  and  correctly  implemented,  that  service
     delivery is taking place, that problem  areas  are  identified  and
     isolated and that mechanisms are devised to address them.


     The Committee sought to be briefed by the head of  each  respective
     office, members of management and  heads  of  certain  departments,
     varying from regional to magisterial level, as well as  to  conduct
     an on-site inspection.


 C.     Umlazi Magistrate's Court
     The listing process conducted by  the  Department  of  Justice  and
     Constitutional  Development  shows  that  the  Umlazi  Magistrate's
     Office is one  of  the  10  worst-run  offices,  from  a  financial
     management point of view.


     1. Scope


          Four focused areas were identified, namely:


          (a) Financial management systems.


          (b) Cash office.


          (c) Information system.


          (d) Guardian fund.


     2. Delegation


          Committee members:


          Ms N Hlangwana
          Ms C Dudley
          Mr B Kannemeyer
          Mr M Lowe
          Mr D Gumede
          Mr B Nair


          Members of Justice Department:


          Mr P Mtshali (Director of Finance)
          Mr M J Langenhoven (Regional Head)
          Mr D Govender (PWHC)
          Mr M Mjamba (Internal Audit)
          Mrs Z S Pienaar (Office Manager)


          Support Staff:


          Ms B Letompa
          Mr K Dlamini
          Mr A van Dyk (OAG)


     3. Issues reported by A-G in 2001 and confirmed during visit


          (a) Lack of proper control on the  Maintenance  Account  which
              forms  part  of  the  Trust  Account  (theft  cases   were
              identified).


          (b) Difficulties in daily balances (books are not  written  up
              daily).


          (c) Dereliction of duties.


          (d) No access to PERSAL/LOGIS at all.


          (e) Weakness in cash management and cash control.


     4. Observations - Maintenance Account and procedures  on  obtaining
          monies


          All  transactions  are  manually  done  and  recorded  on  the
          maintenance card.  There  are  6 000  cards,  of  which  3 000
          holders are  still  receiving  money.  Individuals  enter  and
          provide  the  maintenance  number  given  to   them   at   the
          maintenance  complaints  office.  Clerks  in  the  cash   hall
          physically check maintenance cards (J44) to see whether  there
          is money available (these are entered by the clerks  from  the
          remittance register, from  cash  payments  or  from  the  bank
          statements).


          If there is money, individuals are  advised  accordingly,  and
          their names are entered on a payment voucher (J492). Only when
          that list is full, names are called out and  they  wait  in  a
          queue. When the paymaster effects payment, they sign and enter
          their  identity  numbers  on  the  payment  vouchers.  If  the
          signature and identify number correspond with the specimen  on
          the maintenance card (J440), the  paymaster  will  pay.  If  a
          person cannot write, the paymaster will use  a  stamp  pad  to
          take a thumb print of the individual (witnessed by  two  other
          clerks) and then payment is effected.
          At 13:00, the payment office is closed. When the paymaster  is
          finished with the payouts, she then  hands  over  the  payment
          voucher (J492) to the checking office. The paymaster will then
          balance in the afternoon, checking the cash payout against the
          cash balance. Cash left over is then handed over  to  Fidelity
          Guards for banking.


     5. Problems


          Part of the problem in Umlazi is that clerks do not  write  up
          their books on a daily  basis  -  it  is  easy  for  money  to
          disappear.


          The other problem is that the staff members  do  not  want  to
          rotate - staff in  offices  do  not  want  to  move  to  other
          sections  because  they   refuse   to   be   given   different
          responsibilities. Everything is done manually.


          Recommendations


          (a) Disciplinary action should  be  taken  against  those  who
              refuse to be given responsibilities.


          (b) Staff should be rotated to ensure that they are not placed
              in a position where they can indulge in corrupt  practices
              to the detriment of the public.


          (c) Multi-skilled  employees  are  needed  to  deal  with  the
              changing environment, and the  Accounting  Officer  should
              report to the Committee on this matter.


          (d) The speeding up of computerisation.


     6. Observations - PERSAL/LOGIS


          Umlazi does not have access to PERSAL  because  they  are  not
          linked to the national network and  they  are  not  automated.
          This poses  a  very  serious  risk  area,  both  in  terms  of
          personnel and stock.


          Although the office did look at  the  problem  and  was  fully
          aware of the risks involved, the biggest problem, as indicated
          by the internal audit, was that there was no significant  move
          towards creating the will to eradicate the  problem.  Fear  of
          victimisation and of  being  threatened  prevented  them  from
          taking appropriate action.


          Management identified the risks and provided  reports  to  the
          National Office, but at present there is no  movement  towards
          implementing this because of  budget  constraints,  a  serious
          problem at most magistrate's offices. Before computers can  be
          installed, there must be proper security in  place,  something
          with which the office is battling at present.  Some  computers
          were stolen, so  all  new  computers  were  removed  from  the
          premises into a safe storage.


          In  KwaZulu-Natal,  none  of  the  magistrate's  offices  have
          PERSAL. They only have  viewer  status  to  PERSAL,  centrally
          controlled from the regional office. Forms  are  processed  in
          one office and then go through  the  channels  of  supervisor,
          head  of  the  office  and  on  to  the  regional  office  for
          capturing.


          The Auditor-General's report  highlighted  the  weaknesses  in
          Asset Management. A physical count of all equipment  has  been
          done and submitted to national office to  profile  a  national
          inventory for the Department.


          Recommendations


          (a) Disciplinary action must be more vigorous and it has to be
              done promptly.


          (b) There should be a request for additional budgeting for the
              identified risk areas.


          (c) Urgent implementation of computer systems.


          (d) Security should be upgraded.


     7. Observations - cash management and cash control


          A key concern is that cash management is a weakness. Where one
          comes across problems, things are not being done  properly  or
          people simply do not record, or care about, daily activities.


          Six people work in the cash office. On  Monday morning they go
          to the bank, where the cash is counted, taken over by Fidelity
          Guards, sealed by the cashiers and delivered to the office  on
          a daily basis. Three people receive the  money  bags  and  two
          recording them. It is checked and then signed for.


          The office handles about R100 000 to R120  000  a  day,  three
          days a week (Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday). The problem  is
          the lack of infrastructure -  drawers  and  cubicles  are  not
          locked  and  there  are  no  bullet-proof  windows  for  staff
          handling the cash. The staff handling the  cash  cannot  leave
          their counters and have to stay there the whole day.


 D.     Master's Office, Pietermaritzburg


     1. Delegation:


          Committee members:


          Ms N Hlangwana
          Ms C Dudley
          Mr B Kannemeyer
          Mr M Lowe
          Mr D Gumede
          Mr B Nair


          Members of Justice Department:


          Mr P Mtshali (Director of Finance)
          Mr M J Langenhoven (Regional Head)
          Mr D Govender (PWHC)
          Mr M Mjamba (Internal Audit)
          Mrs Z S Pienaar (Office Manager)


          Support Staff:


          Ms B Letompa
          Mr K Dlamini
          Mr A Van Dyk (OAG)


          During the said visits, the Committee sought to be briefed  by
          the heads  of  the  respective  offices,  conduct  an  on-site
          inspection and be briefed by employees.


     2. General overview


          The office is responsible for the administration of:


          *   Guardian's Fund.


          *   Deceased's estates.


          *   Appointments of insolvencies.


          *   Appointment of curatorships.


          *   Bonds security.


          At present the Guardian's Fund in Pietermaritzburg holds  R454
          million in trust, a  substantial  amount  of  money.  Only  12
          people are employed (with a minimum qualification of St 10) in
          the office, with no accounting  or  finance  background.  This
          clearly  indicates  high-risk  areas  in  terms  of  financial
          control.


          Each and every financial  transaction  is  recorded  manually,
          which  makes  retrieval  of  the  information  difficult.  The
          payment process is risky and is prone to major  errors.  There
          is a backlog of  processed  cheques,  waiting  for  signature,
          verification or approval by the head of  the  department.  The
          problem with the said process is that no-one is overseeing the
          work of the head of the department  (supervising  the  cheques
          signed  by  the  head).  No  internal  auditors   assist   the
          department in the office.


          If estate/inheritance  money  is  not  collected  within  five
          years, the  Master  places  it  in  the  Government's  Special
          Reserve Fund for a period of 30 years. At present they have 30
          000 clients. The names of those outstanding beneficiaries  who
          are  entitled  to  claim  and  are  not  coming  forward   are
          advertised once a year in the Gazette.  The  Committee  doubts
          whether there are proper checks  and  balances  to  track  the
          money and the accumulated interest.


          Example: The process of handling estate money is as follows:


          *   Post is received and given to Mrs Eichbauer to  record  on
              computer.


          *   Post is given to six temporary workers to attach to cards.


          *   Maintenance and inheritance cases are taken to Mr Van Wijk
              for approval.


          *   Payments are then processed by Ms Thandeka, Mlaba,  Laura,
              Kim, Kavitha, Dees and Matilda, and are checked by Mr  Van
              Wijk, Kim or Kavitha. All payments  are  recorded  in  the
              Abstract Book and in the Cash Book by  Dees,  and  checked
              by Mrs Loubser and Hack.


          *   Overcrediting  is  recorded  on  computer  by  Kim,  (Z53s
              written by Thembeka or Prudence).


          *   Z53s, J341s and cheques are posted and all registered mail
              is recorded by Thembeka.


     3. Recommendations


          (a)  The  Guardian's  Fund  needs  to  employ  people  with  a
              financial background who can effectively  and  efficiently
              deal with the early problems, and the  Accounting  Officer
              must report to the Committee on what steps  are  taken  to
              ensure  that  people  with  a  financial  background   are
              employed by the Department.


          (b) Urgent implementation of an information system  that  will
              assist the office to handle R454 million  effectively  and
              serve their 30 000 clients efficiently.


          (c) The office must also use  national  media  to  inform  the
              public, as well as  community  newspapers,  written  in  a
              language that everyone is able to understand.


          (d) Staff must be enabled to understand the cycle of work.


 E.     Conclusion


     The Committee should follow up with other  site  visits  to  ensure
     that its recommendations are implemented by the offices  concerned.
     The Committee would like to extend a word of  thanks  to  DFID  for
     making financial assistance available to undertake the visits,  and
     to the Department and its officials for their co-operation.


 Report to be considered.

1. Nineteenth Report of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts, dated 25 February 2003:

 The Standing Committee on Public Accounts, having sent a delegation  of
 four  members  to  the  Mdantsane  Magistrate's  Office  and   to   the
 Grahamstown Master's  Office  on  an  oversight  exercise,  reports  as
 follows:


 Mdantsane Magistrate's Office


 Delegation:


 Mr F Beukman -    New NP (Committee Chairperson)
 Mr P Gerber  -    ANC
 Ms K Mothoagae    -     ANC
 Mr R Mofokeng     -     ANC


 Secretariat - Ms N Madide and Mr G Dixon.


 The group was  well  received  by  the  following  management  team  in
 Mdantsane:


 Adv N Cetywatyo   -     Regional Head
 Mr D Roux    -    Human Resource Director
 Ms M Nyumase      -     Finance Manager
 Ms Gqiba     -    Chief Magistrate: Mdantsane
 Ms Elliott   -    Office Manager: Mdantsane
 Ms Siqendu   -    Internal Audit


 A.     Introduction


     On 1 November 2002, the  delegation  undertook  the  visit  to  the
     Mdantsane Magistrate Office to display an interest  and  provide  a
     presence from the political perspective that a serious  effort  was
     being made to understand the  unique  and  difficult  circumstances
     under  which  the  Department   of   Justice   and   Constitutional
     Development (the Department), especially Mdantsane, operates.


     The visit followed a Committee resolution on interaction  with  the
     Department  regarding  progress  and  implementation  of  financial
     management systems and compliance with  the  PFMA,  as  well  as  a
     hearing on  the  Auditor-General's  Report  on  the  Department  of
     Justice and Constitutional Development.


 B.     Purpose of visit


     The  Department  is  facing  problems,   ranging   from   financial
     misconduct and maladmistration to corruption by officials.


     The purpose of the visit was to provide the Committee with  insight
     on issues relating to:


     *  Method of work


     *  Segregation of duties


     *  Financial Management Systems (FMS)


     *  Cash office control


     *  Staff complement


     *  Information systems.


     The Committee wishes to further improve  both  its  efficiency  and
     effectiveness in respect of oversight.


 C.     Concerns raised by Committee


     1. Staff complement


          (a) One Chief Magistrate, assisted by a Senior Magistrate  and
              seven Magistrates.


          (b) Two Regional Magistrates.


          (c) One Senior Prosecutor, assisted by nine Prosecutors.


          (d) One Assistant Director (Office Manager), assisted  by  two
              Supervisors and 25 Administration Clerks, Typists,  Telkom
              Operators, etc.


          (e)  One  Principle  Court  Interpreter,  assisted  by   Court
              Interpreters.


          (f) 24 Cleaners.


     2. Human resources


          (a) Poor performance led to  an  enquiry  in  respect  of  the
              Office  Manager  and   Middle   Managers   involved   with
              financial matters.


          (b) Lack of competent staff.
          (c) Removing of staff not able to perform.


     3. On the issue of adequate staffing, the view was  expressed  that
          there was not enough expertise, given that the office  had  to
          deal with all problems from the former Ciskei as well.


     4. Other issues that members and the management discussed:


          (a) Control Personnel  Officer  (Office  Manager)  not  up  to
              standard


          (b) Middle Management not up to standard


          (c) Clerical staff, especially those dealing with finances and
              maintenance, not up to standard


          (d) Training of staff in respect of cash hall,  vote  account,
              new  Maintenance  Act,   human   rights,   equity   court,
              provisioning and administration;


          (e)  Transformation  in  Magistrates  Courts,   anticorruption
              awareness, Small Claims Court,  clerk  of  criminal  court
              not up to standard


          (f) Institution of disciplinary  measures,  where  applicable,
              not up to standard


          (g) Noncompliance with prescripts


          (h) Lack of proper management internal control


          (i) Lack of physical security and access control


          (j) Lack of segregation of duties


          (k) Missing records
          (l) Difficulty  in  reconciling  the  deposit  account  before
              change-over to the new Trust Account in April 2000,  which
              led to both intentional and  nonintentional  misstatements
              of accounting records


          (m) Misappropriation of State money


          (n) About 700 inactive maintenance cards not being followed up


          (o) Difficult to reconcile the vote  account  and  to  monitor
              vote account reports on a monthly basis


          (p) Payments to Sars were not made.


 D.     Recommendations


     1. The Committee noted that a "rolling stone" project  team  and  a
          task team from the Regional office had  visited  and  assisted
          all the sub-offices with the major problem of balancing  money
          in trusts. The Committee recommends that the management report
          to it on their progress within one month of  the  adoption  of
          this Report by the National Assembly.


     2. The Committee noted that Human Resources followed up  all  cases
          of misconduct and that there has been some staff  re-shuffling
          and transfers. A new control officer was appointed at the  end
          of 2001.


          The Committee recommends  that  the  management  of  Mdantsane
          Magistrate's Office deal with their staff complement as matter
          of urgency.


     3. The Committee noted that the office  of  the  CFO  is  currently
          piloting the outsourcing of cash management in cash  halls  in
          order to circumvent the theft of trust  money.  The  Committee
          recommends that progress be reported to it within one month of
          the adoption of this Report by the National Assembly.


     4. The Committee noted that two officials from the regional  office
          have been checking the old vote account records not filed,  so
          as to determine whether  they  were  ever  captured  onto  the
          system or not,  and  also  to  determine  which  vote  account
          transactions needed to be journalised.


          The Committee recommends that progress  on  the  capturing  of
          votes be reported to it within one month of  the  adoption  of
          this Report by the National Assembly.


     5.  The  Committee  recommends  that  all  offices  have   security
          doors/burglar bars fitted as a matter of urgency.


     6. The Committee recommends that the  Regional  Office  make  every
          attempt to update the Asset Register, and report on progress.


     7. The Committee recommends, as a  matter  of  priority,  that  the
          management appoint a Loss Control Officer.


 E.     Conclusion


     The Committee's main concern was the lack of communication  between
     the CFO  of  the  Department  of  Justice  and  the  management  of
     Mdantsane Magistrate's Office, which impacted on the  effectiveness
     and functioning of the office.


     The Committee recommends that the Portfolio  Committee  on  Justice
     and Constitutional Development be informed  in  order  to  try  and
     assist with improving the situation as part of its oversight duty.


 Grahamstown Master's Office: Administration of Guardian's Fund


 The delegation was welcomed by:


 Mr S S Moodley    -     Master of Grahamstown
 Mr Leon Keyter    -     Assistant Master: Grahamstown
 Mr K van der Merwe      -     Project Manager:
        Master's National Office
 Ms Mary Clayton   -     Chief Administrative Clerk


 A.     Background information


     The purpose of the visit to the  Grahamstown  Master's  Office  was
     specifically  to  look  at  the  management  and  the  systems  and
     procedures of the Guardian's Fund - who  was  responsible  for  the
     management of the account and who investigated the  extent  of  the
     corruption, as uncovered by the  forensic  audit  of  the  Auditor-
     General?
     The  group  also  needed  to  know  under  whose   the   Fund   was
     administered in the former TBVC states and what  steps  were  taken
     to hold anyone accountable  for  the  maladministration  that  took
     place with respect to the Guardian's Fund.


 B.     How Guardian's Fund works


     The Master's Offices receive  funds  from  various  sources.  These
     funds are deposited and credited to Control Accounts.  Payments  in
     the form of maintenance and interest are made to beneficiaries  and
     to SARS for funds belonging to the State.


     While the Fund was  being  administered  within  the  TBVC  states,
     there appeared to be no suitable accounting systems and  procedures
     in place to effectively and efficiently  run  it.  The  system  was
     primarily a  card  system  that  was  opened  for  each  individual
     account. Interest, deposits and  payments  were  reflected  on  the
     cards and were calculated by hand.


     The Fund, after being transferred to the Grahamstown  and  Pretoria
     Master's Offices, was upgraded to  a  computerised  system,  to  be
     implemented in February 2003.


     The overall responsibility  for  the  Fund  at  present  lies  with
     individual Master's Offices, but the post of National  Director  of
     the Guardian's Fund has been advertised and  is  to  be  filled  in
     February 2003.


     The responsibility for the Fund prior  to  1994  was  that  of  the
     individual Masters in Umtata and Bisho.


 C.     Problems associated with Guardian's Fund


     The reconciling of figures was calculated by hand and was  done  by
     unqualified people, which led to discrepancies in the  information-
     capturing system.
     The Fund was  understaffed  and  the  correct  expertise  were  not
     linked to the running of the Fund.  In  one  instance,  secretaries
     were allowed to calculate and record interest  in  respect  of  the
     individual cards. Coupled with the fact that the calculations  were
     time-consuming, this resulted in numerous  discrepancies,  mistakes
     and omissions.


     The Guardian's Funds in the Bisho and Umtata  areas  had  not  been
     audited, at least not since the incorporation of  the  TBVC  states
     in 1994. Integration of the Funds took place in 1996 and 1997,  but
     no audit was done on the accounts due to  the  Auditor-General  not
     having the authority to audit within the TBVC states.


     Due to an enquiry  by  the  Portfolio  Committee  on  Justice  into
     irregularities that occurred at these Guardian's Fund offices,  the
     Funds were subsequently transferred to the  Master's  Offices.  The
     Bisho and Umtata branch was  transferred  to  Grahamstown  and  the
     Mmabatho and Thohoyandou branches were transferred to the  Pretoria
     Master's Offices.


     Shortfalls amounting to R3 470 817,14 were recorded for  the  Bisho
     Guardian's  Fund,  and  shortfalls  in  respect   of   the   Umtata
     Guardian's Fund amounted to R2 592 610,17.


     The corruption uncovered by the Auditor-General has  been  referred
     for investigation, subsequent arrests have  been  made  and  people
     have been charged.


     The account  administration  needs  to  be  improved  in  order  to
     tighten security measures in respect of the accounts.


     The Guardian's Fund accounts have been moved to a  secure  building
     in Grahamstown, supplied by the Public Works Department.


     A safe has been requested to house the cards and accounts.
     Upgrading of the systems and procedures to  be  computerised,  will
     allow for tighter control measures to be implemented.


 D.     Reasons for deficits


     1. Overpayments, incorrect postings  and  irregular  payments  were
          made to persons not entitled to funds.


     2. There  was  a  lack  of  record-keeping  in  respect  of  direct
          deposits. As a result, beneficiaries' funds cannot be traced.


     3. Acounting practices were  not  adhered  to  in  respect  of  the
          administration of the Fund.


 E.     Problems faced


     1. Due to a lack of information, it is difficult to  determine  the
          exact  trust  obligation  to  beneficiaries  and  the   Fund's
          obligation to issue maintenance payments and final payments.


     2. Funding for a full-scale forensic audit by  the  Auditor-General
          is lacking due to the Department not being  able  to  pay  the
          expenses associated with the audit.


     3. The Guardian's Fund is understaffed and the  required  level  of
          expertise does not relate to the value of the job.


 F.     Recommended solutions


     The Committee recommends that:


     1. Funding be made available for the  Auditor-General  to  apply  a
          full-scale forensic audit to the accounts and entries.


     2. The appointment of the National Director of the Guardian's  Fund
          and  the  Accountant  to  each  Guardian's  Fund,  along  with
          adequate staff appointments, be expedited.


     3. The surplus funds accumulated for the  Guardian's  Fund  in  the
          PIC account be investigated in order to rectify the shortfalls
          and deficits.


     4. The computerisation of the  Guardian's  Fund  be  expedited  and
          that appropriate checks and balances and access by  authorised
          persons be put in place as soon as possible.


 Report to be considered.

1. Twentieth Report of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts, dated 18 March 2003:

 The Standing Committee on Public Accounts, having sent a delegation  of
 11 members to India, reports as follows:


 A.     Background
     A delegation from the Committee undertook  a  study  visit  to  New
     Delhi, India, from 16 to 24 November 2002.


 B.     Objectives of visit


     1. To meet with  the  members  of  the  Public  Accounts  Committee
          (PAC),  the  Controller-General   of   Accounts   (CGA),   the
          Controller and Auditor-General  (CAG)  of  India,  and  senior
          officials from the two offices, to share experiences and learn
          aspects of public finance management and financial oversight.


     2. To observe how  the  PAC  conducts  public  hearings  and  other
          business.


     3. To investigate support and  other  resources  the  PAC  receives
          from their Parliament.


     4. To meet other  roleplayers  in  public  finance  management  and
          financial oversight in order to  gain  more  insight  in  this
          field.


 C.     Meetings with other role-players


     In addition to meeting government officials  and  Parliamentarians,
     the delegation met the following role-players:


     1. Academics at the  National  Institute  of  Financial  Management
          (NIFM).


     2. Academics at  the  National  Institute  of  Public  Finance  and
          Policy (NIPFP).


     3. Academics at the International Center  for  Information  Systems
          and Audit (ICISA).


     The multiparty delegation consisted of:


     NNP
     Mr F Beukman (chairperson).


     ANC


     Mr V G Smith
     Mr D M Gumede
     Mr B W Kannemeyer
     Mr P A Gerber
     Mr R Mofokeng
     Ms P K Mothoagae
     Ms N L Hlangwana


     DP


     Mr M Lowe


     IFP


     Mr L Vezi


     UDM


     Dr G W Koornhof


     Support staff


     Mr L Pakati (Control Committee Secretary)
     Ms B I Letompa (Researcher)


 D.     Meeting with SA High Commissioner in New Delhi, Ms Maite Nkoana-
     Mashabane, and Deputy High Commissioner, Mr Desmond Nxiweni, on  17
     November 2002


     The delegation had a brief but informative  courtesy  meeting  with
     Ms  Maite  Nkoana-Mashabane  and  her  Deputy,  Mr  Desmond   Monde
     Nxiweni. After the chairperson had outlined the objectives  of  the
     visit, the High Commissioner welcomed the  delegation  and  gave  a
     general briefing about India. Her input covered:


     *  Democracy in India


     *  The economy


     *  Levels of socio-economic development
     *  The nature of party politics.


     She also provided useful hints about how  to  conduct  business  in
     India. She referred to India as a country of a billion people,  yet
     very democratic. Its party politics is  robust;  it  is  a  shining
     model of  democracy  and  a  country  of  many  opportunities.  She
     mentioned  that  this  is  despite  abject  poverty  that   engulfs
     millions of its population. Another positive  element  about  India
     is that its citizens are very patriotic; they always portray  their
     country in a positive light.


 E.     Meeting with Controller-General of Accounts and Senior Officials
     in New Delhi on 18  November  2002  -  chaired  by  CGA,  Mrs  Usha
     Sahajpal


     The delegation met with a delegation from the CGA.  In  her  input,
     she mentioned that the accounting work of the government  of  India
     is handled by four organisations with distinct identities of  their
     own:


     *  Civil


     *  Defence


     *  Railways


     *  Posts and Telecommunications.


     The CGA also gave an overview of  the  legal  provisions  governing
     public accounts management in India.


     1. Legal provisions


          Her  starting  point  was  the  Constitution  of  India.   She
          mentioned that according to article 150 of  the  Constitution,
          the accounts of the Union and the States shall be kept in such
          form as the President may, "on the advice  of  the  Controller
          and Auditor-General of  India,  prescribe".  The  Constitution
          further states that the Accounts  should  be  divided  into  a
          Consolidated Fund, a Contingency Fund and a Public Account.


          (a) Consolidated Fund: All expenditure is incurred  from  this
              fund.  No  amount  can  be  withdrawn  from   it   without
              authorisation from Parliament.


          (b) Contingency Fund: The fund is placed at  the  disposal  of
              the President  to  meet  unforeseen  expenditure,  pending
              authorisation by Parliament.  Subsequent  to  Parliament's
              approval, the money is  obtained  and  recouped  from  the
              Consolidated Fund.


          (c) Public Account: The account contains public moneys such as
              savings, reserve funds, trusts and endowments.
          (d) Annual Financial Statement (AFS)


              Article  112  of  the  Constitution  prescribes  that  the
              President tables the AFS every  year  in  both  Houses  of
              Parliament. The AFS  must  show,  separately,  expenditure
              voted  and  charged  to   the   Consolidated   Fund,   and
              distinguish expenditure  on  revenue  account  from  other
              expenditure. The  Constitution  further  states  that  the
              estimates for Charged Expenditure should not be  submitted
              to the Vote of Parliament, but should be submitted in  the
              form of a Demand for Grants to the House of the People.


     2. Roles and functions of CGA


          The delegation learnt that critical functions of the CGA  were
          the following:


          (a) Consolidation of Monthly Accounts and placing them on  the
              website, with a complete analysis by the last day of  each
              month. This is a requirement of the IMF.


          (b) The analysis of receipts,  revenue  and  other  accounting
              figures of the government of India.


          (c)  Reporting  to  Parliament  every  year  on   the   actual
              expenditure  with  reference  to  the  budget   that   was
              approved by Parliament and the variations between the  two
              (ie actual expenditure and budget, together  with  reasons
              for variations).


          The Annual Appropriation Accounts is prepared demand-wise.  In
          this sense, it contains a group of functions to be carried out
          by specific  departments/ministries  or  other  administrative
          authorities,   and   takes    into    account    supplementary
          appropriations,  reappropriations  and   surrenders.   Another
          responsibility of  the  CGA  is  that  of  monitoring  of  the
          recommendations of the PAC and Audit Reports.


 F.     Meeting with Comptroller and Auditor-General of India (CAG)  and
     senior officials in New Delhi on 18 November 2002


     As the most important instrument of accountability, the CAG  has  a
     dual role to perform:


     *  He acts as an agency to function on behalf of the legislature.


     *  He acts as an agency to function on behalf of the executive,  to
          ensure compliance by subordinate authorities  with  the  rules
          and orders issued by the CAG.
     The CAG, as head of the Indian Audit and  Accounts  Department,  is
     thus neither a part of the legislature nor the  executive,  but  is
     an office created by the Constitution to see  to  it  that  diverse
     authorities, in regard to all  financial  matters,  adhere  to  the
     demands of the Constitution  and  other  laws  that  govern  public
     financial management. To this end,  there  are  several  provisions
     that are enshrined in the Constitution of India, whose  aim  is  to
     safeguard the CAG's independent functions.


     The CAG is appointed by the President of  India  by  warrant  under
     his hand and seal, and the oath of office requires him  or  her  to
     uphold the Constitution of India and other laws in his or her  area
     of responsibility. He or she can be removed  from  office  only  on
     grounds of proven misbehaviour or incapacity after  an  address  by
     both Houses of Parliament and supported by a  two-thirds  majority.
     His or her administrative powers and the conditions of  service  of
     persons serving in the Indian Audit  and  Accounts  Department  are
     prescribed by the rules made by the President,  after  consultation
     with the CAG. The  expenses  of  the  office  are  charged  to  the
     Consolidated Fund of India and are not voted by Parliament.


     1. Role of CAG in other government institutions


          The  CAG  has  to  undertake  special  audits  in  respect  of
          parastatals.


          The CAG issues standardised guidelines to auditors on  how  to
          look  at  certain  issues  during  the  auditing  process   of
          parastatals.


          The CAG conducts a  supplementary  audit  on  all  parastatals
          after special chartered accountants have performed the audit.


     2. Formal body to oversee CAG


          There is no formal body that oversees the functions of the CAG
          in India, like the  Audit  Commission  in  South  Africa.  The
          Auditor-General is regarded as the final authority to  oversee
          accounts.


          The CAG is  fully  funded  by  the  government  of  India.  To
          supplement its income, the CAG recovers some of its money from
          agencies audited by it. There is  no  connection  between  the
          Accounts office and the  Audit  Office.  The  CAG  deals  with
          Accounts and Audits separately.


     3. General observations


          Although India is a federal state, the  Constitution  provides
          for a Unitary Audit by the CAG, who  conducts  audits  of  the
          accounts of both the Union and the State Governments.
          To   ensure   uniformity   in   government   accounting,   the
          Constitution also prescribes that the accounts  of  the  Union
          and of the  States  be  kept  in  a  form  prescribed  by  the
          President on the advice of the CAG.


          The CAG plays a fiduciary role in federal financial relations.
          He or she ascertains and certifies the net proceeds  of  taxes
          levied and collected by the Union and assigned to  the  States
          or distributed between the Union and the States.


          The CAG also authorises the salary and allowances of  gazetted
          officers serving  under  many  State  governments,  authorises
          payment of pension and other retirement benefits to  employees
          of  most  of  the  State  governments,  and  maintains   their
          Provident Fund Accounts.


 G.     Meeting at National Institute  of  Financial  Management  (NIFM)
     with Director, P K Brahma, and  senior  officials  on  20  November
     2002


     The Institute is an autonomous body under the Ministry of  Finance.
     It provides professional training to  public  officials.  The  NIFM
     has collaborative programmes with the  World  Bank  on  Procurement
     Procedures, and with  the  International  Monetary  Fund  (IMF)  on
     banking sector reforms.


     From the academics at the Institute,  the  delegation  learnt  that
     the primary objectives of the public  financial  management  system
     in India is to ensure the implementation  of  budgetary  and  other
     policy decisions, to  obtain  reliable  financial  and  other  data
     relating to execution of budgetary decisions, to  prevent  improper
     use of public funds,  to  detect  and  correct  instances  of  such
     improper use and to assess the efficiency of operations.


     The delegation also learnt that the CAG is regarded as the  supreme
     Audit Institution, according to articles 148 to 151 of  the  Indian
     Constitution. It is regarded  as  a  single  Audit  Authority,  for
     Union  and  States.  Accordingly,  they  audit  all  receipts   and
     expenditures  of  the  government  of  India,  States   and   Union
     Territories,  including  expenditures  incurred  through  voluntary
     organisations or NGOs. Moreover, they  audit  government  companies
     and other local self-governing bodies.


     1. Relationship between PAC and CAG


          The PAC considers reports of the  CAG  tabled  in  Parliament.
          During interaction with the members of the PAC, the delegation
          noted the following:


          (a) The role played by  the  CAG  in  assisting  the  PAC  has
              significantly changed over the past years to keep up  with
              the changing demands of the PAC.


          (b) For the purpose of assisting  the  PAC  in  examining  the
              Accounts, the  office  of  the  CAG  prepares  a  document
              outlining important  issues  the  PAC  could  look  at  in
              respect of each audit.


          (c) The CAG is considered as the friend, philosopher and guide
              of the PAC.


          (d) The CAG and its officials attend sittings of the PAC  and,
              by convention, they take their seats by the  side  of  the
              chairperson.


          (e) When scrutinising  expenditure,  the  PAC  places  greater
              emphasis on  value  for  money  with  regard  to  economy,
              efficiency and effectiveness.


          (f) The supremacy of  the  Audit  Institution  ends  once  the
              Report has been presented to Parliament.


          After finalisation of a report, copies are made  available  to
          the  Ministry/Department,  which   is   required   to   inform
          Parliament's secretariat of the steps taken  by  them  on  the
          recommendations contained  in  that  report  within  a  period
          specified in the report (six months or less).


     2. Challenges facing PAC - view of academics (NIFM)


          The academics were of the  view  that  the  PAC  is  sometimes
          unable to  devote  sufficient  time  to  examine  all  reports
          presented to them. Each report contains a  massive  amount  of
          complex information, which requires more time.


          The PAC is not entirely independent, given that the office  of
          the CAG assists it by coming up with  recommendations  on  all
          observations highlighted in the Audit Report.


          There is continuous interaction between the CAG and the PAC.


 H.     Meeting at National  Institute  of  Public  Finance  and  Policy
     (NIPFP) in New  Delhi  with  Prof  Om  Prakash  Mathur  and  senior
     officials on 21 November 2002 - chaired by Prof Mathur


     The NIPFP is a centre for applied research in  public  finance  and
     public  policy.  It  was  established  in  1976  as  an  autonomous
     institution. Its aim is to contribute to policy-making  in  spheres
     relating to Public Economics. Its  governing  body  is  responsible
     for providing  general  policy  direction  to  the  Institute.  The
     governing body comprises a Chairperson, two representatives of  the
     Ministry of Finance, one representative from each of  the  Planning
     Commissions, a representative from the Reserve  Bank  of  India,  a
     representative  from   the   Industrial   Credit   and   Investment
     Corporation  of  India,  three  eminent  economists  and   taxation
     experts and 12 members representing State governments.


     Like  most  research  organisations,   the   Institute   undertakes
     research on matters relating to tax policy and tax  administration,
     public expenditure and control,  public  debt  and  the  management
     thereof, intergovernmental  fiscal  relations,  economics  and  the
     pricing of public and industrial enterprises.


     Furthermore, the Institute  organises  training  courses,  seminars
     and workshops and  facilitates  policy  dialogue.  The  aim  is  to
     enhance the understanding of public finance and policy.


     All the information gathered in the process  is  published  in  the
     form of books,  research  reports,  seminar  papers  and  journals.
     Moreover, and most importantly, the Institute assists the  Minister
     of Finance by providing research support.


     Views of Academics of NIPFP on challenges facing PAC


     One of the concerns raised at the meeting by the academics  relates
     to the fact that revenues in India  are  always  overestimated  and
     budgets underestimated. This has become  a  systematic  problem  in
     India.  One  of  the  reasons  for  this  is  that  income  tax  is
     relatively small. The  GDP  from  1997  has  also  been  relatively
     small, at 17%.


     Another  concern  is  a  lack  of  capacity  for  MPs   to   engage
     effectively with loads of complex reports.


     Yet another is that the work done by the PAC is seldom  debated  in
     the House. On this score, the academics argue that the  PAC  cannot
     be seen as a substitute to the House.


     They argue that the PAC cannot be seen to be effective  if  the  A-
     G's reports on the misuse of funds are dealt  with  three  to  five
     years after the problem had occurred.


     They were concerned about the fact that few actions  are  taken  on
     the misuse of funds; sometimes there is virtually no feedback  from
     departments/Ministers.


     The PAC has been exposed to  other  ways  of  dealing  with  public
     expenditure  and  subsidies,  with  particular  reference  to   the
     analysis of trends and structural shifts  and  its  management  and
     control - how to deal with government debt, both at the centre  and
     at State level.


     Tax policy and administration, especially in  reference  to  reform
     in the structure  and  administration  of  personal  and  corporate
     income tax; customs; excise; sales tax; as well as  the  impact  of
     tax incentives on particular sectors.


 I.     Meeting with PAC at Indian Parliament  on  20  November  2002  -
     chaired by Hon Mr Sardar Buta Singh, MP


     1. Composition and work methods


          The  PAC  in  India  historically  began   during   the   pre-
          independence days of British rule. The first  public  accounts
          committee was set up in 1921 and consisted of only 12 members.
          The committee now consists of 22 members, of whom 15 are  from
          the Lok Sabha (Upper House) and seven  from  the  Rajya  Sabha
          (Lower  House).  By  its  composition,  it  is   a   miniature
          Parliament, as  the  members  are  elected  on  the  basis  of
          proportional   representation   of   political   parties    in
          Parliament.


          However, once elected, the members  cease  to  function  along
          party-political  lines.  The  committee,   through   sustained
          scrutiny, highlights  cases  involving  losses,  instances  of
          waste, imprudence and financial irregularities.


          When a case of proved negligence is brought to the  notice  of
          the committee,  the  concerned  Ministry  is  called  upon  to
          explain what  action,  disciplinary  or  otherwise,  has  been
          initiated  to  pin-point   responsibility   and   to   prevent
          recurrence. The committee expresses no opinion  on  points  of
          general policy, but it is  well  within  its  jurisdiction  to
          point out whether there has  been  extravagance  or  waste  in
          carrying   out   policy.   The   government    always    takes
          recommendations  of  the  committee  seriously  and   suitable
          remedial action is taken.


          Being a sentinel  on  public  expenditure,  it  has  been  the
          constant endeavour of successive public accounts committees to
          ensure that money voted by Parliament is disbursed legally for
          the intended purposes approved by Parliament and in accordance
          with the rules and regulations framed by competent  authority.
          Indian  Parliamentarians  have  evolved  sound  accountability
          procedure to see to it that public money is  well  spent.  The
          committee has the proud privilege of  eminent  leaders  having
          adorned the office of chairperson, including two former  Prime
          Ministers. By convention, the chair of the  PAC  goes  to  the
          leader  of  the  opposition  or  his  or  her   nominee.   The
          Committee's deliberations have been marked by objectivity  and
          fairness, culminating in unanimity on recommendations.


     2. Lessons learnt


          The PAC has the privilege of having long-term serving  MPs  as
          members.  The  advantage  of  this  is  that  it  allows   for
          continuity and the accumulation of valuable experience.


          At the time of the visit by the delegation, the PAC  in  India
          was nine years behind with  the  processing  of  some  of  the
          reports. In India, the A-G audits all companies in  which  the
          State has more than 50% of the shares. Their books and reports
          are referred to  the  public  enterprise  committee,  not  the
          public accounts committee.


 J.     Meeting with International Centre for  Information  Systems  and
     Audit (ICISA) on 21 November 2002 - chaired by Dr Shri A Prasad


     The meeting with ICISA was the last engagement for  the  delegation
     in India. They learnt that the CAG of  India  has  been  active  in
     upgrading the skills of auditors and financial managers,  and  this
     is illustrated by the apparent prevalence of training  institutions
     in India.  Since  1979,  ICISA  has  been  involved  in  organising
     international training programmes in different  areas  of  auditing
     and accounting. The government sponsors all its programmes.


     ICISA  does  not  only  cater  for  Indian  students;  it  attracts
     students from many  countries,  including  the  EU,  former  Soviet
     Union Republics, Korea, China, etc.  Most  important  is  that  the
     Institute provides direct support to the  secretariat  and  members
     of the PAC. The government, also, from time to time  requires  that
     ICISA  do  research  and  look  at  specific  issues  that  require
     research.


     Challenges facing PAC


     Again, the challenges facing  the  PAC  were  highlighted  and  re-
     emphasised by academics of the Institute. They argued that the  PAC
     is facing monumental challenges. Every  year  the  CAG  presents  a
     plethora of reports with massive observations. Among  others,  they
     present reports of  wide-ranging  autonomous  bodies  with  massive
     loans from the government. In most cases, large sums of  government
     money are channelled through these organizations. Yet,  members  do
     not have time to scrutinise these reports,  because  they  have  to
     divide their time between Parliament and their  constituencies.  To
     help the PAC deal with these challenges, ICISA assists the  PAC  to
     simplify the reports and prioritises them. They also assist in  the
     drafting of committee reports.
 K.     Other observations


     1. India as a democracy faces challenges that  are  almost  similar
          to those of South Africa,  in  terms  of  both  socio-economic
          development and public finance management.


     2. Their PAC is almost similarly dealt with to  the  way  in  which
          SCOPA in South Africa is managed and organised.


     3. The activities of the committee are largely apolitical.  Members
          totally divorce party politics from committee work.


     4. The CAG is facing serious  challenges,  some  bordering  on  the
          undermining of their independence.  The  delegation  was  told
          that, at some point, the CAG was called in by  Parliament  and
          reprimanded.


     5. Like South Africa, India  is  moving  from  cash  accounting  to
          accrual accounting.


     In this context, the Committee feels that  it  should  continue  to
     use some of the lessons learnt in India.


 L.     Conclusion


     The Committee wishes to express its sincere gratitude to  the  High
     Commissioner of South Africa  in  India,  members  of  the  PAC  of
     India, officials of various government departments,  academics  and
     staff from the office of the High Commissioner, who made the  visit
     such a resounding success.


     The Committee would  also  like  to  especially  thank  Mr  Linford
     Andrews for the special assistance rendered to  committee  members,
     Ms Ava Dowling and Ms Ntombi Madide for assisting  with  logistics,
     and the Department  of  International  Development  for  sponsoring
     part of the visit and for  assisting  with  the  logistics  of  the
     visit.


 Report to be considered.

1. Twenty-First Report of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts, dated 25 March 2003:

 The Standing Committee on Public Accounts, having considered the Report
 of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of the Robben Island
 Museum for the year ended  31  March  2002  [RP203-02],  tabled  on  30
 September 2002 and referred to it, reports as follows:


 1.     Audit opinion


     The Committee commends the management of the Robben  Island  Museum
     for  the  unqualified  audit  opinion  expressed  by  the  Auditor-
     General, and trusts that future  audit  opinions  will  be  equally
     unqualified.


     The Auditor-General, however, raised several issues of concern:


     (a)     PFMA noncompliance


          The Museum did not comply with the requirement  of  the  PFMA,
          which requires the submission of annual  financial  statements
          to the Auditor-General within two months after the end of  the
          financial year. The Committee also notes the reasons  for  the
          late submission as provided by the Accounting Officer  to  the
          Auditor-General, and finds the reasons unacceptable.


          The Committee recommends that all the sections of the PFMA  be
          complied with and that the management of the Museum  implement
          action plans to ensure that future financial statements fairly
          present its activities.


     (b)     Audit Committee


          The  Committee  notes  that  an  Audit   Committee   was   not
          established as required in terms of the PFMA.


          The Committee recommends that the management take urgent steps
          to rectify the situation, and that the Auditor-General  report
          thereon in his next audit report.


     (c)     Forensic audit


          The Committee notes that a forensic audit was instituted after
          allegations by individuals that certain  procurement  policies
          and procedures were not followed.


          The Committee recommends that the final forensic audit  report
          be submitted to it as soon as possible.


     (d)     Grants


          The Committee notes that the acting finance manager  requested
          that  additional  audit  procedures  be  performed  on  grants
          received by the Museum.


          The Committee recommends that the final audit report on grants
          be submitted to it as soon as  possible  when  all  the  audit
          requirements/procedures have been completed.


 2.     Conclusion


     The Committee is of the view  that  no  hearing  be  held  for  the
     financial year under review.


 Report to be considered.

1. Twenty-Second Report of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts, dated 8 April 2003: The Standing Committee on Public Accounts, having considered the Annual Report, including the Report of the Auditor-General on the Financial Statements of Vote 21: Independent Complaints Directorate [ICD] for the year ended 31 March 2002 [RP149-02], tabled in Parliament on 25 September 2002 and referred to it, reports as follows:

 1.     Tabling of Annual Report


     The  Committee  notes  that  the  Annual  Report  was   tabled   in
     Parliament  on  25  September  2002,  a  delay  which   constitutes
     noncompliance with the PFMA.


 2.     Audit opinion


     The  Committee  commends  the  management  of  the  ICD   for   the
     unqualified audit opinion expressed  by  the  Auditor-General,  and
     trusts that future audit opinions will be equally unqualified.


 3.     Emphasis of Matter


     The Committee notes that under "Emphasis of  Matter"  the  Auditor-
     General has raised an issue of concern which  needs  the  attention
     of the management and on which the Committee  offers  comments  and
     recommendations in paragraph 4 below.


 4.     Responses to Committee's Tenth Report for 2002


     The Committee welcomes the Executive Director's speedy response  to
     the issues raised in its Tenth Report for 2002 on the ICD.


     The Committee notes:


     *  That weaknesses  were  identified  during  the  risk  assessment
          process,  relating  mainly  to   reporting   lines   and   the
          segregation of duties


     *  That the Human Resources Component was  rated  as  a  high  risk
          area within the ICD


     *  That recommendations for the improvement of the  Component  will
          be made.


     The  Committee  recommends  that  it  be  kept  abreast   of   such
     improvements, and that the Auditor-General report  thereon  in  his
     next report on the ICD.


     With regard  to  the  Internal  Audit  Component's  impact  on  the
     control environment, the  Committee  notes  that,  in  addition  to
     implementing the Code of Conduct for Public Servants,  the  ICD  is
     developing a Code of Ethics to improve corporate governance  within
     the ICD, and that the ICD has completed a Code of Conduct  for  ICD
     staff members to further foster integrity within its own ranks.


     The Committee requests that copies of the Code of  Ethics  and  the
     Code of Conduct for ICD staff members be  furnished  to  it  by  30
     June 2003.


     The Committee notes the submission of  the  minutes  of  the  Audit
     Committee's two meetings, as requested. It further notes  that  the
     Audit Committee could not evaluate  the  financial  statements  for
     the 2001-02 financial year before the Auditor-General approved  the
     effectiveness of internal controls.


     The Committee welcomes the plan of action, which has been  compiled
     to improve the effective management of  the  ICD's  assets,  within
     the relevant time-frames, especially in  relation  to  stock-taking
     and a centrally-driven Assets Register.


     The Committee requests  that  the  ICD  submit  a  formal  progress
     report on asset management to Parliament by 30 June 2003.
 5.     Internal audit function


     The Committee notes with concern that, although an  internal  audit
     department was established during February 2002, no audit plan  was
     drawn up, and that no audit work  was  performed  for  the  2001-02
     financial year.


     The Committee welcomes the Auditor-General's  indication  that  the
     internal audit function will  be  evaluated  during  the  financial
     year ending 31  March  2003.  The  Committee  recommends  that  the
     Auditor-General report thereon on his next report on the ICD.


 6.     General


     In terms of the Introduction by  the  Executive  Director  and  the
     Foreword by the Minister of  Safety  and  Security,  the  Committee
     notes that:


     *  During the year under review, the ICD received 3 369  complaints
          which fell within the mandate  of  the  ICD,  representing  an
          increase of 14,9%, compared to the previous year


     *  The figure for deaths in custody as a result  of  police  action
          decreased by 12,8%


     *  The ICD received much acclaim internationally on the basis  that
          it conducts its own independent investigations, and  that  the
          South African model of policing oversight has  been  commended
          and lauded.


 7.     Conclusion


     Having  noted  the  unqualified  audit  opinion  expressed  by  the
     Auditor-General, and having considered  the  issue  raised  by  him
     under "Emphasis of Matter", the Committee is of  the  view  that  a
     hearing  on  the  Independent  Complaints   Directorate   for   the
     financial year under review is not necessary.


 Report to be considered.