FRIDAY, 12 NOVEMBER 2004

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                PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

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The House met at 09:02.

The Deputy Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS – See col 000.

                          NOTICE OF MOTION

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Madam Deputy Speaker, I give notice that at the next sitting of the House I shall move:

That the House resolves that-

    1) in terms of section 2(1) of the Remuneration of Public Office
       Bearers Act, 1998 (ACT No 20 of 1998), and having due regard to
       the criteria listed in that subsection, the salary and
       allowances payable to the President of the Republic of South
       Africa be determined at seven hundred and ninety-two thousand
       three hundred and thirty-nine rand, eighty-one cents (R792
       339,81) and two hundred and sixty-four thousand one hundred and
       thirteen rand, nineteen cents (R264 113,19) per annum,
       respectively, with effect from 1 April 2004; and


  (2)   in terms of section 2(2) of the said Act, the amount of
       forty thousand rand (R40 000) per annum be determined as that
       portion of the remuneration of the President to which section
       8(1)of the Income Tax Act, 1962 (Act No 58 of 1962), shall
       apply.

Agreed to.

                         MEMBERS’ STATEMENTS


                     THE DEATH OF DR NEIL WHITE

                        (Member’s Statement)

Ms Z A KOTA (ANC): Madam Deputy Speaker, the ANC notes with great sadness the passing away of Dr Neil White, who was an associate professor at the UCT medical school. Comrade Neil has contributed in the struggle to bring about democracy in our country. He was one of the dedicated and committed comrades during the dark days of apartheid. He attended to many combatants, including Comrade Oscar Mpheta.

Many will remember Comrade Neil for his fight against asbestos and assisting mineworkers who were affected by those working conditions. This gallant fighter departed having seen the fruits of his hard work. The ANC sends its deepest sympathy to his wife, Comrade Justine, an activist who was one of the delegates at the Codesa gender advisory committee, and their two sons. We commit ourselves to picking up his fallen spear.

             SALE OF THINTANA SHARES TO ELITE CONSORTIUM

                        (Member’s Statement)

Dr E NKEM-ABONTA (DA): Thank you. The DA considers the sale of Thintana’s remaining 15,1% in Telkom to an elite government-aligned consortium an opportunity lost for broad-based empowerment; an unusually unfortunate example of crony capitalism. The transfer of equity to a well-connected few at the expense of ordinary South Africans has become the empowerment pattern, under this government’s BEE policy. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Hon members, please.

Dr E NKEM-ABONTA (DA): It is crony capitalism. Here crony capitalism has been taken to new levels. The deal includes Smuts Ngonyama, who is an active official of the ruling party, and Andile Ngcaba, who has only recently vacated a director-generalship of the Department of Communications.

The consortium will be entitled to appoint two members of the Telkom board. It is not as if an alternative, without the burden of the ANC heavyweights, was not on the table. The DA proposed a people’s consortium, which could have included beneficiaries numbering in the millions through stokvels and burial societies. [Interjections.]

The Minister should reject crony capitalistic deals, and go for real, broad- based empowerment. [Applause.]

                      MATHS AND SCIENCE SURVEY

                        (Member’s Statement)

Prince N E ZULU (IFP): Madam Deputy Speaker, according to an independent study conducted by a policy research and advocacy programme there are 50 000 high school pupils around South Africa at any given time who could pass maths and science, but their schools discourage them from taking these subjects, fearing a low pass rate.

What is even more discouraging is that according to the survey 3 700 of the 50 000 pupils could have passed the subjects on higher grade. Also revealed in the survey was that although enrolment in senior certificate maths for grade 10 to 12 nearly doubled, the enrolment in higher grade maths decreased significantly. Very worrying is the fact that only 14,7% of educators teaching maths and science have been found to have the minimum prescribed qualifications. Maths and science are subjects that are required to obtain entry to tertiary institutions for a number of courses. It is therefore essential that the department takes note of the findings of the study, as well as its recommendations, and tries to find ways of increasing the number of pupils who take maths and science. Pupils should be encouraged to take these subjects, and not discouraged from doing so. I thank you, ma’am. [Applause.]

                INTERNATIONAL DAY OF DISABLED PERSONS

                        (Member’s Statement)

Mrs W S NEWHOUDT-DRUCHEN (ANC): Madam Deputy Speaker, on 3 December South Africa will be joining the family of nations in celebrating the International Day of Disabled Persons. The world programme of action concerning disabled persons was adopted by the UN General Assembly on 3 December 1982. This programme of action jolted the international community into action to give full recognition to rights of persons with disabilities to equal opportunities and full participation in the economic and social life of their communities. The ANC supports multilateral institutions and initiatives aimed at promoting a world based on human rights values, including the UN Standard Rules on the Equalisation of Opportunities for Persons with Disabilities, to further promote the rights of persons with disabilities among member states.

The ANC commitment to the advancement of the rights of persons with disabilities, even before it came into power in 1994, has led to the many achievements that we have realised in the first ten years of democracy. Among these achievements is a notable increase in the number of members of Parliament with disabilities, especially from the ANC, as well as the establishment of the OSDP at national, provincial and local levels. May I invite this House and all South Africans to join all people with disabilities in celebration of the International Day of Disabled Persons on 3 December. I thank you. [Applause.]

                       HIV AND AIDS AWARENESS

                        (Member’s Statement)

Ms S N SIGCAU (UDM): The UDM would like to make use of this opportunity as the last sitting of this House before Aids Day on 1 December to raise again the matter of HIV and Aids. In the past few days we have witnessed a number of painful reminders of the presence of HIV/Aids in our country. On Sunday we lost an artistic giant when Gibson Kente passed away. We salute his courage and campaigning for greater HIV/Aids awareness.

On Tuesday the SABC reported that the Department of Health has announced that 37,5% of the population of KwaZulu-Natal are HIV-positive. This is a staggering number of people in need of urgent assistance. We urge all South Africans to conduct safe sex, remain faithful to their partners, and make responsible sexual choices. I thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. [Applause.]

            COOLING-OFF PERIOD FOR SENIOR PUBLIC SERVANTS

                        (Member’s Statement)

Mr A HARDING (ID): Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The ID supports a call for a cooling-off period for senior public servants when they leave office, as well as for public representatives. This is needed in order to prevent conflict of interest and the use of undue influence via their political connections to further their business interests.

The Telkom case provides but one example of how bureaucrats used office and development of policies to their own benefit. This reflects on the broader picture of crony capitalism occurring in most of these deal-making activities. This type of activity, especially in the Telkom case, artificially inflates the share price which means more debt to service loan payoffs, etc, and does not reflect and underlie the value of core businesses.

The ID reinforces the call for broad-based BEE incorporating, amongst other things, employee share options. I thank you. [Applause.]

               STIFLING OF DEBATES ON IMPORTANT ISSUES


                        (Member’s Statement)

Mrs C DUDLEY (ACDP): Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The ACDP is extremely concerned that Parliament is deteriorating into a farce, where every word the opposition speaks has to be vetted by the ANC with constant censoring under the pretext that statements are unparliamentary. [Applause.]

It would be a joke; only it is no longer funny. First we are censored by time and now we are told what we can and can’t say. It is extremely disturbing when the governing party tries to stifle debate on important issues, like the choice of termination of pregnancy, as was witnessed in the House yesterday.

Also, the triumphalism and celebration that followed the chairman of the health committee’s declaration that 280 000 children had been terminated since the Act was first passed – actually that figure is way less than the real figure – was frankly nothing less than nauseating.

The public are totally disrespected as their representatives are strangled by procedure. Attempts to pretend that the CTOP Bill is not about abortion amount to treacherous deception: Whether a baby is terminated or aborted it dies, and it dies a violent death. The Deputy Minister of Health’s claims recently during question time amounted to the perception that a vote for the ANC was a vote for abortion, and MPs vigorously applauded her. Yet, contrary to the ANC’s claims that SA women want abortion, the HSRC survey show that 70% believe aborting babies, because you can’t afford them is always wrong. In fact, the number rises to 74% for black South Africans. Thank you. [Time expired.][Applause.]

                  SA CONSTITUTION AND HUMAN RIGHTS

                        (Member’s Statement)

Ms M P MENTOR (ANC): Madam Deputy Speaker, 10 December is International Human Rights Day. It is also the day on which the first president of the democratic state, the former President Mandela, assented to the Constitution in 1996.

The Constitution of South Africa, which is internationally acclaimed, is the supreme law of our country and is founded on human rights and the rule of law. As the Preamble of the Constitution proclaims, South Africa should continue to recognise the injustices of our past, to honour those who suffered for justice in our land, and to respect those who have worked to build and develop our country.

The ANC calls on Parliament and the people of South Africa, based on the Constitution, to work towards the following: healing the divisions of the past; establishing a society based on democratic values, social justice, and fundamental human rights; improving the quality of life of all South Africans; laying the foundation of an open society in which government is based on the will of the people; and building a united, democratic South Africa that is able to take its rightful place as a sovereign state in the family of nations. Amandla ngawethu! [Power is ours!] [Applause.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, I know that this is the last day that we have a plenary. There are too many meetings going on, which I would encourage to continue, but outside the Chamber so that we continue business and are able to hear one another.

I really respect that people have those meetings so that they take one another’s details and continue communicating outside the House, but I am sure the business can be taken elsewhere, and it will be much better outside where no-one will call you to order. I am just trying to say that we should respect the people participating this morning.

              PLIGHT OF THE CAREGIVERS OF THE DISABLED

                        (Member’s Statement)

Ms H WEBER (DA): Madam Deputy Speaker, December is recognised as a month for the disabled, when we should be addressing their plight. It should be a month of giving and goodwill when we give an extra thought for those less advantaged than we are.

To care for the disabled takes great dedication. Fortunately, we are blessed with many such people, but unfortunately their time is taken up by fundraising to keep the doors of such institutions open. Many institutions place their hope on the Lotto for a donation to survive.

I urge the Minister to take cognisance of the many institutions that are run by NGOs and are in danger of closing their doors. It is common knowledge that funding by government to NGOs has almost dried up. I would urge government to speed up the criteria for funding these valuable institutions, which government is unable to provide. Thank you. [Applause.]

                  EVICTIONS IN PROTEA GLEN, SOWETO

                        (Member’s Statement)

Dr S E M PHEKO (PAC): Deputy Speaker, the PAC is disturbed that within a short space of two months the residents of Protea Glen in Soweto are again being evicted and are losing their property to sheriffs, who have always pounced on them like vultures upon helpless chickens.

The situation occurs with regular monotony despite the fact that these Protea Glen residents were assured that there would be intervention with the bank regarding sheriffs. A number of residents are unable to pay their bonds because of the high rate of unemployment. Many have lost their jobs through retrenchments.

The PAC appeals to those who wield power to wield it in favour of the poor and the powerless. The PAC has long advocated a moratorium on land evictions. It is a shame that those who were dispossessed of their land continue to be victims of land evictions, rain or no rain, cold or no cold. Land evictions are often executed in the name of development; development must develop people, not destroy them for the rich and the powerful. Land repossession; not land evictions. [Applause.]

                 DA MEMBER IMPLICATED IN CORRUPTION


                        (Member’s Statement)

Mr B M SOLO (ANC): Madam Deputy Speaker, yesterday in this House the hon Chief Whip of the DA read a statement informing us about some member of the DA who is implicated in corruption. We hope that the hon Gibson, Spinnekop, [Spider] and the DA will learn what we have been telling them all the time.

We have said, time and again, corruption knows no colour or party affiliation. It is a social problem that arises out of our complete historical reality, characterised by the centuries of…

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, hon member!

Mr W J SEREMANE: On a point of order. This is getting very serious and out of hand.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: What is the point of order, sir?

Mr W J SEREMANE: Is it parliamentary to refer to an hon member with epithets such as “spinnekop” [spider]? [Laughter.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon member, did you refer to any hon member as “spinnekop”?

Mr B M SOLO: No, I can’t remember. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: He didn’t.

Mr B M SOLO: Whether the DA likes to hear this or not is another matter. We note the DA’s failure to deal with their latest corruption scandal.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, hon member!

Mr J P I BLANCHÉ: Madam Deputy Speaker, would you give a ruling on what the question was over here.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I asked the hon member, and if an hon member says that he did not say that, I have to take his word. [Interjections.] Hon member, continue.

Mr B M SOLO: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

Mr W J SEREMANE: Madam Deputy Speaker, I heard it clearly. He did say that.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: We will check the record, but for now we take his word. If indeed he did utter the word “spinnekop”, we’ll come back to the House. [Interjections.]

Mr B M SOLO: Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. We hope the hon Gibson and the DA will learn what we have been telling them all the time. We have said time and again that corruption knows no colour. It knows no party affiliation. It is a social problem that arises out of our concrete historical reality, characterised by centuries of illegitimate colonial and racist rule.

Whether the DA likes to hear this or not, is another matter. We note that because of the DA’s failure to deal with their latest corruption scandal, the DA now tries to draw the names of other parties into the matter. Again, we must tell the DA that this approach to handling corruption of DA members is not going to work. They must stop trying to appease certain sections of our communities and start contributing to the national effort to rid our country of corruption. I thank you.

         DRAFT PREFERENTIAL PROCUREMENT EXCLUDES WHITE WOMEN


                        (Member’s Statement)

Mrs S M CAMERER (DA): Madam Deputy Speaker, the new draft preferential procurement regulations were published for comment on 4 October and exclude white women and white disabled people from receiving preference. Should they replace the current regulations, it may be an embarrassment when South Africa next has to report to the United Nations committee on the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women.

Article 3 of that convention states:

  State Parties shall take in all fields, in particular in the   political, social, economic and cultural fields, all appropriate   measures, including legislation, to ensure the full development and   advancement of women, for the purpose of guaranteeing them the exercise   and enjoyment of human rights and fundamental freedoms on the basis of   equality with men.

The convention deals with all women and not only women of a certain race. South Africa ratified the UN Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women without reservation and is legally bound to put its provisions into practice.

In the new draft regulations the prescribed balanced scorecard now applies only to black people, meaning Africans, coloureds and Indians. This means that white women and white disabled people who currently receive preference points when they tender for contracts will in future be excluded and will probably, in many instances, fall out of the race for government contracts altogether. So the DA appeals to the ANC government to reconsider these regulations. Thank you, Chair. [Applause.]

         INCLUSIVE EDUCATION FOR LEARNERS WITH SPECIAL NEEDS


                        (Member’s Statement)

Mr T E VEZI (IFP): Madam Deputy Speaker, discrimination in any form is totally unacceptable and does not have any place in society. It is therefore very unfortunate and sad when disabled people or people with special needs are discriminated against. It is inexcusable for people to be excluded from or to lose their place in society simply because they are disabled or have special needs. Poor people and people in rural areas are particularly affected by this.

We are therefore greatly encouraged by the Department of Education’s efforts to implement inclusive education in terms of which learners with special needs will be included. We are particularly interested in the Minister’s plans to implement inclusive education in rural areas, as these learners have for far too long been excluded because of their special needs and disabilities.

Inclusive education has the potential to make a positive difference to the lives of many people. We therefore hope that plans to implement it are at an advanced stage. I thank you.

          EMPANGENI POLICE COMMENDED FOR POSITIVE ATTITUDE


                        (Member’s Statement)

Mr M R SIKAKANE (ANC): Madam Deputy Speaker, I rise to pronounce my appreciation for the attitude of the police of Empangeni and for the service they are rendering to the community.

The communities around Empangeni police station are proud that they never leave the police station unattended and that they get prompt attention. Surely the Batho Pele spirit is working in this police station. We urge the communities to reciprocate by showing the police respect and to co-operate with them. We hope that all police stations in the country will emulate the Empangeni police. I thank you.

                         MINISTERS’RESPONSES

PROBLEMS REGARDING BOND REPAYMENTS, ILLEGAL EVICTIONS AND PROTECTION OF PROPERTY RIGHTS

                        (Minister’s Response)

The MINISTER FOR AGRICULTURE AND LAND AFFAIRS: Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker. In response to the statement made by the hon Pheko, I would like to respond as follows.

If one looks at the mechanisms that have been put in place by the Ministry and the Department of Housing to assist those communities or members who have difficulties with regards to the payment of their bonds, one would recall that an entity known as Safcon was put in place, whose task it was to assist members who may not have been able to pay their bonds and find them alternative accommodation.

However, part of the challenge is that many people in our communities are either not aware of this or sometimes find it difficult, because such alternative accommodation may mean a place that is smaller than what they are used to. This is a matter, in my view, in which members of Parliament themselves can assist so that we can indeed ensure that those people who have difficulty paying their bonds are not left on the street.

I quite agree with the hon member when he says that land evictions are not acceptable. However, we need to appreciate that this House has put two pieces of legislation in place to ensure that no illegal evictions take place. The Extension of the Security of Tenure Act is one such piece of legislation. The Prevention of Illegal Squatting Act is another piece of legislation that balances interests - as some people may actually invade land unlawfully - to ensure that people do not affect the property rights of others. However, it does stipulate that the landowner also has a responsibility to report and take action as soon as such invasion takes place.

I think these safeguards were put in place to ensure that you protect, on the one hand, the citizen’s property rights, while, on the other hand, that you are conscious of vulnerability in terms of landowners who illegally evict individuals willy-nilly. I trust that these mechanisms, coupled with other programmes of government such as land reform and the housing programme, are intended to secure the security of tenure of all South Africans. Thank you very much, Chair.

          CONCERNS REGARDING MATHS, SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY


                        (Minister’s Response)

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Madam Deputy Speaker, I just want to draw your attention to the fact that two issues were raised by two members and to take this into account in terms of my response.

Regarding the concern that was raised in relation to mathematics, science and technology, we raised this concern prior to the release of the report, and we do agree that this is a matter that we do have to be attentive to.

In 1991 we started a mathematics, science and technology initiative in terms of which we established 102 Dinaledi schools. These schools were dedicated schools for mathematics and science. The 102 schools constituted 1,5% of the Grades 10, 11 and 12 cohort of learners in the country.

Over the years these schools have contributed more than 30% of students at university doing mathematics and science. We, however, recognised certain things already a few months ago, and when we discussed the matter with the portfolio committee we identified certain issues that had to be taken note of.

The first was the psychological barrier that was created when children or learners were told that mathematics was difficult. We believe this is the first step that has to be taken is to break down the barriers in terms of mathematics and science.

In terms of our engagement with the portfolio committee and the review of the strategy, we also recognised that it was important that we ensured that there was sufficient capacity amongst teachers in order to be able to teach the subjects. A teacher who has the ability to motivate, and who is aware of the content of mathematics and science, would obviously contribute meaningfully or enhance the results in mathematics and science.

We also raised the concern that it was not sufficient or adequate that we provide quantitatively more learners doing mathematics and science, but with too few learners doing so in higher grade. It was therefore important that we raised the bar in terms of the registration of learners doing mathematics and science in higher grade. It was also important to take into account that ICT had a particular role to play in the development of mathematics, science and technology and, therefore, we would ensure that we did so in a creative and innovative way.

What was also important was to recognise the roles of universities and universities of technology in terms of ensuring that they assist and support the initiatives of government regarding its national strategy. We have already engaged with certain institutions, and they are looking very carefully at how they can accelerate development in these areas.

So, the concerns that have been reflected in the report are concerns that we share, which we were aware of long before the release of the report and, certainly, we will be attentive to those recommendations.

With regard to the issue raised by the hon member in so far as inclusive education is concerned, I would like to thank him for his sentiments. Indeed, the Department of Education has a policy in terms of inclusive education. The policy is based on the fact that education for children with special disabilities was predominantly provided to members of the white race. The facilities by and large in the past, were also located in Pietermaritzburg, Cape Town or Johannesburg. We thought that we had to turn that around and make sure that these institutions were accessible to the entire population.

The approach of the Department of Education and the Ministry has been that one does not look at disability or inclusive education on the basis of an individual deficit but, rather, in a very systemic way. For this reason, we have set about initiating elaborate pilot projects to ensure that we can, in a very systematic way, determine what the most useful approach is. The framework within which we intend working is a period of 10 to 15 years. Obviously, you will understand, hon member, that it will require enormous resources.

As a first phase we have recommended that provinces convert at least 15 schools into resource centres in each province. Where they cannot convert the schools, they might well establish new schools. These schools would be feeder schools to other institutions where children have disabilities. There would be resource centres that would be able to provide capacity in terms of teaching, in terms of the development of content, etc.

This initiative has already taken place, and it will be expanded progressively and incrementally. Thank you very much, hon Deputy Speaker. [Time expired.]

                    ABORTION AND INFORMED CHOICE


                        (Minister’s Response)

IPHINI LIKANGQONGOSHE WEZEMPILO: Phini likaSomlomo, ngisukumela ukuphendula inkosazana, umhlonishwa uDudley, ngesitatimende asenzile khona maduze nje. Isitatimende sakhe, ngeshwa, sigcwele okuningi okungesilo iqiniso. Ngesintu- ke sithi: ngamanga nje aluhlaza cwe. Izolo besiphasisa uMthetho … [Inhlokomo.] (Translation of Zulu paragraph follows)

[The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Deputy Speaker, I stand up to respond to the hon Ms Dudley with regard to the statement she has made. It is unfortunate that her statement contains many things that are untrue. In my language we say “blatant lies”. Yesterday we passed the Act … [Interjections.]]

Mr L M GREEN: Madam Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: The Deputy Minister indicated in her response that our member told blatant lies. I think that is unparliamentary and I would like you to ask the Deputy Minister to please withdraw that. [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I think it’s a problem of language. I will tell you, Mr Green, how I understood it. What the Deputy Minister said was, “ukhulume izinto ezingelona iqiniso” [she spoke about things that are not true] and she actually went on to say that, in her language, that would be referred to as blatant lies.

Mr L M GREEN: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. I just heard the interpretation, “lies”.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: There was a context to that. Deputy Minister, will you please continue.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam Deputy Speaker, may I ask you on a point of order: If I were to say, in my language, that something is blatant lies, would that be parliamentary? [Interjections.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Deputy Minister, much as I speak and understand isiZulu very well, we have a problem that we must address, especially now when members leave, and that is the interpreting service. Regarding what comes through in most cases, people have complained that it is not actually what a member said. The impression that is created is that, I’m told, in fact, you were referring to blatant lies, “amanga aluhlaza”.

I think you have made your point by saying that the hon member gave the House an untrue statement. If you are comfortable with it, I would ask you just to withdraw the part of your; language… [Interjections.] What is wrong with hon members; why do you get so excited? It’s not fair. We have been dealing with this thing of disrespect for the Chair and it continues. Hon members, I think we should rise to the occasion and be hon members.

In terms of isiZulu, there is nothing wrong in what the hon member has said. She is not responsible for the poor interpretation service. We are just requesting her, for the purpose of this sitting, to withdraw if she is comfortable with that because she has not said anything wrong in terms of her language. IsiZulu is one of the 11 official languages. It is our problem, as Parliament, to make sure that we have people who will give the right interpretation service.

In the middle of a ruling – as happened yesterday – I have this intervention. I think it is wrong and does not actually augur well for some of us that you are so disrespectful. Any time when a person interjects you are already intervening as if we here just don’t even have brains. I think that is disrespectful and I take this thing very seriously. Hon members, I’m getting annoyed, I must say. I really take exception to this kind of behaviour, Mr Douglas, that continuously as I try to make a ruling I will always be assisted when I have actually said that when I seek assistance I will do so. Thank you. Qhubeka-ke mama. [Continue, hon member.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Thank very much, Deputy Speaker, for your ruling. But, before I withdraw, what I want to say is that the languages we speak in South Africa are rich in idioms, proverbs and expressions that may seem colourful to others who don’t understand these languages. So I would urge them to actually try and learn our languages…

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Much as I respect what you are saying, Deputy Minister, I am going to take this as part of your allocated time.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Thank you. I was responding to a statement and I was interrupted on a point of order by a member whose party says the ANC is stifling debate.

The issue that we were discussing yesterday on which we passed an amendment is an issue that has been debated very widely in this country. When we passed the law there was a very positive response to it, not only from the members of this House, but also from a large majority of women outside who were disadvantaged and discriminated against in that they were not given the same right that had been given for many, many years to white women in this country.

The hon member said she wants a debate. I’m saying that we’ve had the debate. We have passed the law and it is supported by a large majority of South Africans.

However, having said that, I just want to say that, in terms of the law that we passed and in terms of the policy of the ANC, clearly, the ANC would not like to see a situation where children are aborted. What we have said is that there are circumstances and conditions under which women need to make an informed choice. This is what this law is about. It says: Give them the information, give them power and let them decide on what happens to their bodies. We’ve had this debate. The hon member comes with statistics from the HSRC… [Time Expired.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Deputy Minister, the time has expired now. There is time left for you to withdraw.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: What I would like though, Madam Deputy Speaker, is to give the hon member an opportunity to come and discuss issues that seem to continue to bother her. You know, we can’t impose our religious beliefs on this House or on the people of South Africa.

Mr L M GREEN: Deputy Speaker, on a point of order: There is a ruling and the Minister must respond to it.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I have given the ruling and I’ll make sure that before the Deputy Minister takes her seat she does exactly that. I also want to advise Mrs Dudley and the Deputy Minister that I think there is lot of talking that has to go on between the two of you because the Minister is inviting you for a discussion. I think you should take that opportunity.

Now, Deputy Minister, will you please withdraw the phrase, “amanga aluhlaza” [blatant lies].

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Hon Deputy Speaker, I started there…

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: I don’t want a speech.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: I did withdraw it, it but I said. …[Interjections.] I did. Anyway, what I said, and I repeat, is that the richness of our African languages is that they are full of idioms and proverbs. [Interjections.] But, for the sake of this debate, I will withdraw what I said.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: The fact is that the member has misled this House. I will make a statement if she wants me to make a statement that will explain what I did say to this House, which she is continuously misquoting, and she has misquoted it here as well.

Mrs C DUDLEY: Madam Speaker, on a point of order: That retraction was qualified and the Deputy Minister again said that I was misleading the House, just as she misled the House about the debate…

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: There’s nothing wrong with the phrase, “misleading the House,” as long as people can substantiate what they mean by saying that. The only thing that I wanted the Deputy Minister to do was to withdraw the words, “amanga aluhlaza” [blatant lies].

Mrs C DUDLEY: But she qualified her withdrawal. It needs to be an unqualified withdrawal.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Deputy Minister, will you please withdraw those words unconditionally, without qualifying your words.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Well, I withdraw them.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thanks.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: But I would still like to have an opportunity … [Interjections.] This is a different subject – I’m saying that I would still like an opportunity …

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon Deputy Minister, will you please respect the Chair and the Chair’s ruling.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Deputy Speaker, I said I withdraw it unconditionally.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Thank you very much.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Thank you. Before I was interrupted, I was just explaining to the hon member that it is not right … The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Deputy Minister, I thought I had ruled regarding time. I did say your time had expired but I gave you time to respond to the point of order that was raised, and you have done so. Thank you very much.

               NATIONAL SMALL BUSINESS AMENDMENT BILL


                       (Second Reading debate)

The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: Madam Deputy Speaker and hon members, in 1996 the National Small Business Act was promulgated for the purpose of creating an institutional framework to implement the government support strategy for small businesses. The Act allowed for the establishment of Ntsika Enterprise Promotion Agency as a national small business development agency, as well as the National Small Business Council as an advocacy body for small businesses. The principal Act was amended for the first time in 2003 to remove the provisions of the National Small Business Council, which was liquidated in 1999.

In the last 10 years various reviews of the strategy for implementation of small enterprise development support services were conducted. The strategy reviewed and highlighted challenges that arose during that period. These included the need to streamline the institutional framework for small enterprise development so as to eliminate or reduce duplication; achieve optimal use of existing resources through an integrated service delivery network; maximise the outreach and the impact of small enterprise development programmes; achieve a coherent and comprehensive response to the needs, capacities, opportunities of the small enterprise sector; and to ensure that the roles of all stakeholders are well defined.

Against this background the Department of Trade and Industry believes that the establishment of a new legal entity responsible for implementing the government’s 2004–14 small, medium and micro enterprise strategy is in the public interest and will significantly advance the all important and critical objectives of small and medium enterprise development.

In the process of conceptualising the small enterprise development agency, the department had consultations with a wide range of stakeholders including the National Treasury, the Department of Provincial and Local Government, MECs and provincial governments, the boards of Ntsika and Namak, all general managers of provincial manufacturing advisory centres as well as a range of small enterprises and service providers in the different provinces.

Proposals made at the hearings were also taken into consideration. The primary objective of the establishment of the new entity is to increase the capacity of government to deliver support services to small enterprises in a manner that will improve programme outreach, achieve our desired impact on small enterprises, provide a single access point for small enterprise support, be inclusive of all relevant stakeholders, leverage resources and service delivery, and align it with government strategy of integrated service delivery.

The Bill is intended to amend the National Small Business Act so as to repeal all provisions pertaining to Ntsika Enterprise Promotion Agency; to provide for the establishment of the Small Enterprise Development Agency, or Seda, as a juristic person; to make provision for the incorporation of Ntsika Enterprise Promotion Agency, the national manufacturing advise centres and any designated institution into the agency to be established; and also to provide for the necessary transitional arrangements to this effect.

The Seda will be established with the purpose of implementing government policy for small enterprise development. It will therefore be responsible for designing and implementing enterprise development support programmes of a nonfinancial nature, develop a service delivery network that will increase the contribution of small enterprises to the South African economy, oversee the functioning of the institution and ensure that it remains aligned with national priorities. A board of directors, consisting of not less than seven members and not more than 15 members, will be appointed by the Minister of Trade and Industry. The board will serve for a period of three years after having obtained approval from Cabinet.

The chief executive officer of Seda will be appointed by the Minister of Trade and Industry on the boards recommendation. To ensure that the new institution is adequately resourced so that it is able to deliver on its mandate, its funds will consist of money appropriated by Parliament, grants, donations, bequests and money lawfully obtained from other sources. The CEO will be the accounting officer and the Auditor-General will audit the accounts and the balance sheet.

To ensure co-ordinated service delivery, the Bill provides for the design and implementation of a standard and common national delivery network that will be uniformly applied throughout the Republic in respect of small enterprise development, integrating all government-funded small enterprise support agencies across all spheres of government. The agency will also establish provincial structures to ensure the effective implementation of its functions at provincial level.

It is important to ensure that the agency remains accountable to and in touch with all its stakeholders and beneficiaries. To this effect the Bill requires the board to hold consultative meetings with beneficiaries, provincial representatives and other relevant stakeholders, at least once a year to discuss the functions and performance of the agency.

I would like to thank the members of the portfolio committee for their inputs and speedy consideration, processing and support for this Bill. I thank you, Deputy Speaker.

Mr B A D MARTINS: Hon Deputy Speaker, hon members, in keeping with the developmental agenda of the ANC government to broaden and stimulate economic participation, and in accordance with His Excellency the President’s announcement in his state of the nation address in May this year, the Bill before the House today provides the legal framework to merge Ntsika and the National Manufacturing Advisory Centre to create the new Small Enterprise Development Agency.

Furthermore, in line with the ANC’s contract with the people to fight unemployment and poverty and to create work, the government seeks to promote sustainable, decent work for all through a range of immediate interventions, which include small enterprise promotion and development.

The main objective for the establishment of the Small Enterprise Development Agency is to increase the capacity of the government to deliver support services to small enterprises in a manner that will, amongst other factors, eliminate the poor co-ordination of small enterprises and improve programme outreach and service delivery; secondly, provide single access points for small enterprise support; thirdly, reduce the costs of service delivery; and fourthly, eliminate the duplication in service delivery.

The Portfolio Committee, in keeping with its oversight mandate, looks forward to seeing the Small Enterprise Development Agency providing greater levels of business support to small enterprises, and also playing an important role in improving the capabilities of small enterprises, as it will be primarily responsible for implementing the government’s 2004–14, small, medium and micro enterprises strategy.

Whilst it is a fact that unemployment and poverty remain major challenges in South Africa, it is also important to note the government’s approach to these challenges. Two fundamental strategies underpin the government’s approach: firstly, the government seeks to increase economic growth so that the number of net new jobs being created will begin to exceed the number of new entrants into the labour market; and secondly, to improve the education system so that the workforce is able to take up the largely skilled work opportunities economic growth will generate.

In pursuance of these critical objectives, the core function and focus of the Department of Trade and Industry is to promote job creation, economic growth and equality. It is in this context that small enterprise promotion in general, and the development of black-owned small enterprises in particular, remain crucial components of job creation in the economy.

This will require a number of measures, including, amongst other things, access to capital and ongoing entrepreneurial training. As South Africa remains an integral part of the global competitive economy, it is thus necessary for us as a developing nation to ensure that our enterprises, both big and small, are able to compete effectively. The ANC supports the passage of this Bill. I thank you. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon members, before we continue with the debate I want the House to join me in congratulating Mr Ben Martins who has added an LL M- qualification to the many degrees that he has. [Applause.] I happened to be close to him when the University of Cape Town confirmed that information yesterday. [Applause.]

Dr E NKEM-ABONTA: Madam Deputy Speaker, the background section of the Bill details a number of problems that the Small Enterprise Development Agenda, Seda, will have to address. Among these are, widespread regional and local differences in policy absorption and a weak entrepreneurial culture in the country.

It is thus clear that the Bill seeks to lay the basis for the establishment of a single small business support agency and to co-ordinate and integrate the myriad of small business support agencies and programmes that exist in our country. The DA has repeatedly called for this. Accordingly, it will welcome any initiative by government to streamline, co-ordinate and integrate small business support service delivery into a coherent and effectual strategy. Thus, to the extent that the Bill does this, it has the support of the DA.

Unfortunately, the Bill has too centralist a flavour containing prescripts that could stifle local initiative and innovation. Happily, the word “tier”, used in an earlier draft, has been replaced by “sphere” at the DA’s insistence, but that it featured at all in a proposed piece of legislation fills my chest with angst. It certainly was a sleight of hand, a Freudian slip and an irreverent poke in the eye of our intergovernmental arrangement

• a sleight of hand because it sought to bring in the centralisation of power through the back door; a Freudian slip because it revealed unwittingly the national government’s intention to foist a unitary system on an unsuspecting citizenry; and an irreverence because it was contemptuous of our Constitution.

My concern is, of course, more than semantic. It goes beyond what some in this House might consider a non est. I am concerned that all subnational spheres of government - provincial and local - will have to toe the line. None can, not even with own resources or an equitable share, implement programmes best suited to their local conditions. Realpolitik and expediency might perhaps require Parliament to divest the provincial sphere of its constitutional, if residual, discretionary power over its own revenue and equitable share.

The national government has already done this, and posterity will judge whether expediency is a valid reason for tinkering with legislation. The Bill poses the danger that it might emasculate and lock the local sphere into a centralist straightjacket, which will be manifestly unconscionable. For one thing, it will defeat the very raison d’être of local government. In fact, our Constitution envisions an entrepreneurial local government, and for this reason it grants a much greater degree of autonomy than a provincial administration.

It is true that the Constitution requires all three spheres of government to co-operate, but there must be something suspicious about co-operation if it results from legislation and not from free will. For most of our municipalities much of local economic development, Led, is about small business development. If the Bill becomes law a mayor of a municipality, in so far as his or her Led programme relates to small business development, will have to be answerable to a bureaucrat in Pretoria, not his or her electorate. I doubt that this was ever the intention of the framers of our world-famous Constitution.

Moreover, the Bill does not address the challenge of widespread regional and local differences in policy absorption, which, it rightly points out, calls for a more bottom-up approach. The centralisation not just of policy- making but also of implementation, far from being a bottom-up approach, represents a top-bottom approach par excellence; nor does the Bill signal a strong strategic commitment to promoting an entrepreneurial culture. It does not even assign Seda the promotion of an entrepreneurial culture as a strategic objective. Job creation, equity and suchlike enjoy this privilege. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Ms E S CHANG: Madam Deputy Speaker, hon members, it is well known that small businesses are a highway to wealth creation, asset ownership and economic growth. In order for SMMEs to thrive and succeed there is a need for risk capital, but coupled with financial viability. There has to be social benefits, profitability and sustainability of these SMMEs.

SMMEs cannot be subjected to a one-size-fits-all approach, as they need to have measurable outcomes. I want to stress the fact that enterprises must be owned by the community, especially by women and the disabled. The IFP believes that it is critical that the vision and objectives of the agency become real. In essence, we need to ensure that these structures work for our people.

Let us not forget that the debate affects the whole economic debate and the whole debate on poverty. Finance marketing, management skills and technological skills are four vital elements that are needed for any business to succeed.

The DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Hon member, please take your seat. Hon members, she has not completed her speech. I don’t think that you even heard what she was saying. Hon members, have those conversations, but please be mindful that there is business before the House because I can’t even hear the hon member. Will you please continue.

Ms E S CHANG: Thank you, Deputy Speaker. I am trying to speak louder so that I can cover their voices. We believe that the government is on the right track and is making progress with regard to these four elements and that this will assist in increasing productivity, as well as reducing the costs that businesses incur. This will lead to greater success for small businesses.

The recent actions of the Industrial Development Corporation, or IDC, must be applauded for their positive approach to their subsidiary, Forskor. Not only have they increased the loan to Forskor from R99, 5 million to R544 million, but the IDC has also converted this loan from a 14,6% interest- bearing loan to a zero-interest loan. This is a positive move from the IDC in preventing job losses. The government could perhaps take a leaf out of this book.

If SMMEs are to survive and thrive costs have to be reduced. At the moment SMMEs have to pay interest at 17% to 29% per annum on their loans. This is a heavy burden for poor people who desperately need our help.

Dear hon Minister, these SMMEs - particularly women, disabled people and people from rural areas - are in need of some sort of incentive scheme. Should they be exempt from paying the loan application and yearly renewal fee? Should the interest rates be reduced, or could they maybe be exempt for a period of at least three to five years? This is the period in which small businesses are most vulnerable and still finding their feet in our very competitive global market. With positive government agency support SMMEs will be the future of our country, the Republic of South Africa. The IFP supports the amending Bill. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr M STEPHENS: Madam Deputy Speaker, hon Minister and hon members, I must say that I am surprised that the DA finds it necessary to heap irrelevant vituperation on this Bill. It seems that if they fail to find real points to criticise, they are forced to put up their own dummies to shoot down.

The establishment of the Small Enterprise Development Agency is an important new initiative in the development of small enterprises in the country. Neither Ntsika nor Namac realised anywhere near their full potential for assisting the growth of small businesses. It is trusted that the amalgamation of their functions and efforts in the new agency will achieve what they did not.

The amendment of the name of the main Act to that of the National Small Enterprise Act also signifies a welcome new approach to economic activity in the country. The Bill moves away from the narrow perception of economic activity as being essentially business. It widens the horizons of the agency to include a much greater array of economically valuable associations of people.

It is in many ways thus a precursor of legislation that is yet to come. It foresees the co-operative movement, which will gain much momentum during next year, and it recognises the valid and valuable economic roles of NGOs and CBOs. The UDM supports the Bill as amended by the committee. I thank you. [Applause.].

Ms N P KHUNOU: Chairperson, Deputy Speaker, Ministers, Deputy Ministers and hon members of Parliament, the National Small Business Amendment Bill, which is to amend the National Small Business Act of 1996, is an important piece of legislation. It incorporates Ntsika Enterprises Promotion Agency and the National Manufacturing Advisory Centre, Namac, into a new agency called the Small Enterprise Development Agency, Seda.

Ntsika’s mission was to render nonfinancial support services to the SMMEs. Some of its key functions were entrepreneurship, development, marketing and business development services. Most SMMEs complained about the inefficiency of this agency. Although it delivered it was ineffective because most SMMEs were not developed. On the other hand, Namac’s role was to supply high quality advisory and information services to new and existing SMMEs to ensure improvement in their quality, competitiveness and productivity.

The merger of these two agencies into Seda will reduce costs and eliminate duplication in service delivery, as this has always been our concern in the committee. It will improve access points in local communities, as Seda will be based in all nine provinces. It will also improve the impact of service delivery networks and accessibility, and I am passionate about this matter.

This initiative by the government is highly appreciated. That is why we all need to support this Bill. The ANC is committed to reducing poverty, encouraging growth and promoting equality. The President, in his state of the nation address, said that Namac and Ntsika would be merged into a single agency. He also said that we needed to bridge the gap between the first and second economy. The ANC is committed to its people’s contract and halving unemployment and poverty by 2014.

It has been proven by many countries in the world that SMMEs help to create jobs and increase GDP. In South Africa small business absorb more than half of the people formally employed in the private sector and contribute about 42% of this country’s GDP. Presently, in Malaysia the small and medium industries account for more than 80% of the total manufacturing establishment in that country. In Singapore small and medium enterprises have played an important role in that country’s economic development. They employ about half of the working population and contribute close to a third of total value added. In Thailand the SMMEs create millions of jobs, generate additional income that is significant to many poor and disadvantaged families, and generate a high proportion of their countries’ wealth.

My colleague, Dr Nkem-Abonta of the DA, said he had never heard of any businessperson opening a company to create jobs. This proves to me that his party is always blindfolded and refuses to see growth and development in this country. [Interjections.]

Enterprise development is key in this department. It shows the commitment of the department regarding business and growth in the South African economy and the creation of jobs. The Department of Trade and Industry has certain sectors and youth internship programmes in its information and communication technology strategies. This was started in May 2002 and aims to reduce youth unemployment and create ITC skills. We need to have more skills development and the youth should take part.

The annual report of the Department of Trade and Industry 2002-03 lists 835 SMMEs, and 223 of these are black-owned. We need to see more improvement. There are 180 women-owned businesses and two for the disabled. That is very good. If you teach a child you invest in the future, and if you educate a woman you educate a nation.

The committee has stringent measures relating to the operation of the board because we don’t want to see challenges anymore. We want to see SMMEs developing. When the Minister appoints the board the members must have business knowledge and experience in trade, industry and finance. This is a non-negotiable issue. The board must at least once a year hold consultative meetings with its stakeholders, beneficiaries and provincial representatives to discuss activities and the performance of the agency. We also had public hearings, and the contributions of Cosatu were helpful. This is our commitment to equality and job creation.

Fa ke feleletsa, ke ratile gore Tona ya Lefapha ke lona le le tlhopang Boroto. Ka jalo o nale matla a go tlosa leloko la Boroto fa le sa fitlhelele dintlha tsotlhe tse di umakilweng mo karolong 13(c). O tshwanetsi go dira se morago ga go buisana le Boroto. Redumellane re le ANC gore Boroto le Tona ke bona ba ba tshwanetsing go kgeta CEO e e tla tshwarang marapo dingwaga tse tlhano. Molao o fa pele ga rona, re o lebeletse ka matlho a bolegileng re le ANC.

Ke batla go feleletsa ka gore a pula ele nele lotlhe. Fa re boa ongwageng o tlang, a re ne melomo ya bao ba ba sa kgoneng go ipuelela. Ke a leboga. [Legofi.] (Translation of Tswana paragraphs follows.)

[In conclusion, the Minister appoints the board. He has the power to remove a member who does not abide by the rules as set out in section 13 (c). He must do this after having consulted the board. We agreed as the ANC that the board and the Minister are the ones who are supposed to appoint the CEO, who will hold the position for five years. The Bill before us will be looked at critically by the ANC.

I wish to end by wishing everyone well. When we return next year, let us be the spokespersons for those who are unable to speak for themselves. I thank you. [Applause.]]

Mr A HARDING: Mr Chair, the previous National Small Business Act provided the impetus to incorporate small business activities into the mainstream of the economy. Subsequent to this we have seen many changes in SMME strategy because many entrepreneurs did not receive adequate and relevant products and services delivered by the various DTI agencies. Part of the problem is that many of the initiatives were supply-driven and not what the target market needed. As a result we have seen poor performances by Ntsika and other agencies.

The amending Bill makes provision for the establishment of the Small Enterprise Development Agency, which essentially is a merger of Ntsika and Namac Trust. Through this agency’s support measures it is envisaged that small business will be competitive internationally and that nonfinancial support services rendered through intermediaries will be streamlined.

The agency, once operational, should immediately address problems of fragmentation, duplication and resource scarcity linked to a defined delivery mandate. The ID supports the amending Bill.

Mr K D S DURR: Chairman, Minister, when we deal with small business we must keep it simple and get the basics right. We support the legislation, but I think it is good that we should get back to basics. The basics are social stability, honesty and reliability, a free market and access to capital at relatively low interest rates, which means low inflation - small business can’t support micro-lending rates, Minister – a fair legal system that recognises and can enforce contracts and protect physical and intellectual rights, and the teaching and fostering of entrepreneurship.

Stimulating small business isn’t rocket science. The techniques are well understood. The principle is that if we cannot help people, we must not hinder them. Our ability to help is limited. We need to protect freedom and provide security everywhere.

Minister, the First World economy of this country didn’t grow under heavy regulation, it grew under deregulation. The old Transvaal was cowboy country and almost anything went. So the same is true about other economies. We can’t now stifle the Second World at birth with overregulation. [Time expired.]

Mr M T LIKOTSI: Chairperson, the African small businessmen selling or producing mala-mohodu and tjontjobina farming were excited when Ntsika Enterprise Promotion Agency was formed during the promulgation of the National Small Business Act in 1996. They thought things were going to change for the best. The changing of names alone does not solve our root problems in small business. Local business centres supported by both Ntsika and Khula did not bring about a change of fortune to small business.

Four years ago a local business service centre in Botshabelo, Free State, changed its name to Botshabelo Entrepreneurial Development Centre. Both the Free State and Flemish government, including Shell Petroleum, supported the project. Equipment for panel beating and spray-painting, wheel alignment and balancing worth R1,5 million was purchased. Today, it lies unused. The Central University of Technology in the Free State was roped in later, but with no success. [Time expired.] Otherwise, we support this Bill.

Mr S J MAJA: Chairperson and hon members, today we are introducing the National Small Business Amendment Bill. The Minister of Trade and Industry, the Chairperson of the Portfolio Committee on Trade and Industry, and the hon Khunou have already indicated the aims of the Bill, that it is meant to try and improve the structures of service delivery to our people, especially in the previously disadvantaged areas.

We recognise the fact that Ntsika has not delivered to the maximum requirements. The Bill therefore repeals the provision pertaining to Ntsika Enterprise Promotion Agency, and provides for the establishment of the Small Enterprise Development Agency. It also makes provision for the incorporation of Ntsika and Namac.

Modulasetulo, ANC e re bophelo bjo bo kaone mo batho ba dulago gona. Ntsika e be e sa kgone go fihlelela batho ba rena gabotse fase, ka kudu makeišeneng a rena a bathobaso le dinagamagaeng. Go a tsebagala gore mo go dulago batho ba ga bo rena, bophelo bjo bo kaone ga bo a hlwa bo ba fihlelela gabotse, kage seemo sa gona se sa hlwa se re kgotsofatša. Mmušo wa peleng wa kgatelelo, o hlokišitše mafelo a re bolelago ka ona gore ditirelo di be gona, le gore bophelo bjo bo kaone bo be gona. Meetse, mehlagase, thuto ye kaone, kabelo ya mengwako, le tša boitšhidillo le tše dingwe tše re di tsebago, ga sa hlwe di enela ka mokgwa wa tshwanelo.

Seo o bego o se tseba ka kudu, e be e le gore ba ikemišeditše fela go ka šala bao ba rego bona ke balwela-tokologo morago. Ge re dutše re kitimišana re ngangišana le bona, ba butše nthoba ka mo bosenyi ke bjo bogolo. Ke bona ba re baketšego mathata, ke bona ba baketšego mafelo a mathata, kage ba be ba sa a hlokomele.

Dikgwebopotlana tšeo di lego gona mo makeišeneng a go se hlokomelwe le dinagamagae tšeo e lego gore ga ba ka ba di šetša, ge rakgwebopotlana a nyaka go šomiša thekenolotši ya sejwalejwale, kage mohlagase o se gona, o tlo šitwa. Dithekenolotši tša bjale dikolong tša rena moo bana ba rena ba swanetšego ke go ka di šomiša, le gona ba šitwa gore ba ka di šomiša.

Bao ba boletšego pele gaka magagešo ba laeditše gore maikemišetšo magolo a go phetlolla Molawana wo le go o fetola, ke gore ditirelo di kgone go fihla ga bonolo setšhabeng. Ntsika le Namec di tlile ka rena, ra bona gore ga di fihlelele batho ka mokgwa woo re nyakago ka gona, kege rena gape re bowa, re phetlolla gore di kopane di kgone go direla batho tše ba di nyakago.

Kage ba tla be ba fihlelela metse ya magaeng ga bonolo, le mafelo ao e lego kgale a gateletšwe, bao ba nyakago go dira dikgwebo ba tla holega le kgwebo tšeo di bego di goga ka sefega, di tla holega. Ba tla ruta batho ba gore naa kgwebo e dira bjang, e sepedišiwa bjang, pele ba ka kgona go ba adima mašeleng a gore ba itirele dikgwebo. Digole, baswa, basadi le ba bangwe, ba tla holega ka temana ye. Le bawo ba rekišago ditseleng le mekgotheng, le ba bangwe gape bao ba bapatšago mebele ba gwebago ka yona, le bona ba tla holega ba tlogela go ka gweba ka mebele, ba hwetša tše bonolo tšeo e lego gore ba tla itirela dikgwebo tša bona.

Mmušo wa ANC o išitše ditirelo tše dintši tše kgolo setšhabeng ka mengwaga ye lesome, go feta ka mokgwa wo mmušo wo wa go feta o ileng wa di iša ka gona makgolo a mararo a mengwaga, ba šita ke go phetha ditirelo tše di kago go tlala seatla. Ge mmušo wa ANC o iša ditirelo metseng, mekgatlo ya rena ya kganetšo yeo e lego ka letsogong le, … [Nako e fedile.] Ke a leboga ANC e thekga Molawana wo. (Translation of Pedi paragraphs follows.)

[Chairperson, the ANC wants a better life for our people where they stay. Ntsika was unable to reach our people properly, especially in the townships and rural areas. It is well known that where our people reside, a better life has not yet reached them, as the situation is not yet satisfactory. The previous oppressive government denied a better life and services to people in these places that we are talking about. Water, electricity, better education, housing distribution, gymnastic equipment and other things that we know, are not yet there.

What the previous government knew well was to let those who were freedom fighters suffer. While we are running after them and arguing with them there is a big hole on the other side and crime is worsening. They are the ones who caused problems for us; they are the ones who caused problems for these places, as they were careless.

Small businesses that are there in the townships and rural areas are being ignored, and when the business owner wants to use modern technology, he or she will fail, as there is no electricity. In our schools, where our children are supposed to use this modern technology, they are failing to use it as there is no electricity.

Those who spoke before me, my people, have shown that the main aim of changing this Bill is for services to reach people easily. Ntsika and Namec were formed by us, and we have realised they do not reach the people as much as we want them to, and so we have come back again and changed this so that they can come together, and so that they can serve the people.

As they will be reaching rural areas easily, and other places that have been oppressed for too long, those who want to do business will benefit and the businesses that were struggling will benefit. They will teach these people how to run a business before they lend them money to start their own business. Disabled people, the youth, women and other people will benefit through this. And street vendors and others that are advertising their bodies, prostitutes, will benefit and stop prostitution, and find easier things to start their own businesses with.

The ANC-led government has brought a huge amount of services to the nation in a decade, more than the previous government did in three hundred years; they only fail to deliver just a few services. When the ANC government brings services to communities, our opposition parties, on the other hand … [Time expired.] Thank you; the ANC supports the Bill.]

The MINISTER OF TRADE AND INDUSTRY: Thank you very much, Chair. I would like to thank all the members for participating in the debate, and for their support of the Bill.

There are just a few issues that I think it is important to respond to. The hon Nkem-Abonta, I do not know if he is still here, makes the assertion that the Bill has a centralist flavour. I want to remind him of an issue I raised in the NCOP earlier this year, during the Budget Vote debate, where I said that we have seen the proliferation of a lot of investment promotion agencies across the three spheres of government.

I asked the question then: Where do investors who want to invest, let us say in Coega, go? Do they go to the Department of Trade and Industry, the Coega Development Corporation, or the Eastern Cape department of economic affairs? The point was raised that we need to streamline the way in which we deliver those kinds of services.

This Bill also makes reference to the need for us to deliver services in an integrated way. It speaks more to the way in which we must function, rather than taking away the powers that are constitutionally assigned to local authorities. It is important to understand that distinction. This body, Seda, is a national board that we are establishing, but it is going to be highly decentralised in the way that it is going to function, because the idea is that we must create access points for our people in a whole range of localities.

This entity is going to function through a network of NGOs and other service providers. So to create an impression that this is some structure that will sit in Pretoria, and that people will have to go to Pretoria in order to get information about and support for small enterprises is really not what is intended in the Bill.

Debate concluded.

Bill read a second time.

CONSIDERATION OF REPORT OF PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE ON COMMUNICATIONS – HEARINGS ON ADVERTISING AND MARKETING INDUSTRY

Ms M SMUTS: Chairperson, this exercise was started three years ago by the previous chairperson of the Portfolio Committee on Communications, because there was some evidence to show that advertising spend was not reaching audiences with all of the right income and other credentials, when those audiences were seen as black. Media planners therefore simply did not know them and they didn’t receive the ad spend that they ought to have done. In other words, the market mechanism on the face of it was not operating as it should have.

A lot of work and time has gone into considering all the relevant factors in the marketing and advertising value chain of industries. There have been benefits from this process, interestingly especially in respect of government’s role as an advertiser. At the start of this process government tended to use traditional media instead of always reaching the right audiences. It has also been discovered that the way that government departments handle advertising tenders tends to impact negatively on small emerging black companies.

So, there have been benefits and we certainly do not object, as is proposed in the report, if government reports annually to us on transformative practices. But it is time to leave the private sector industries alone, so that they can go and help grow the economy, which is what they are there for and we are not really strictly here to exercise oversight over them.

I must say that there are signs of real transformation fatigue setting in. The advertising industry has put a scorecard in place and they say that it is quite frankly not the time to wait for yet another broader scorecard. The marketers are the ones who are blamed for not co-operating, but it is their money to advertise their products that we are talking about for which they want to see returns, and quite rightly so. And in addition they form part of bigger organisations, which also have other obligations under the finance charter and the ICT charter and so forth.

It seems to me there just isn’t enough time and energy to go around for all the transformation obligations as well as to make the economy grow. There are also simultaneously signs that some participants in this process are, in my view, beginning to think that they can interfere in the free operation of the market mechanism, which was not what we set out to do, to achieve their own ends - social ends, economic ends, political ends - and that will not do.

When I asked the GCIS CEO, Mr Joel Netshitendzhe, what he thought of the Department of Communications’ commissioned research that measured ad spend against audience colour, I was very relieved when he said that content determines target. Then your advertising is efficacious and it reaches the target market. Let’s all agree that that is the way it should be and I suggest that we now leave the industries to get on with their work and to help grow this economy. Thank you. [Applause.]

Ms S C VOS: Chairperson and colleagues, the IFP is fully committed to social and economic transformation throughout South Africa. The IFP, along with all citizens who have a conscience and a sense of social justice, supports policies and programmes that will constructively address the imbalances and the socio-economic distortions caused by apartheid.

The IFP also, as one of its founding principles, supports free enterprise. We believe that it is only an enterprise-driven economy that can fundamentally assist in helping us to achieve the transformation we all seek.

So it is in this context that the IFP approaches the content and the context of this report relating to the advertising and marketing industries. The IFP is sensitive to the complexity of these industries and we acknowledge and applaud the attempts made to date to right the obvious wrongs and to attend to the training and representation required within their ranks. And we applaud the outstanding creative talent these industries reflect throughout what is called their value chain.

We therefore can only hope that the very individual creativity which drives these industries can be applied by its practitioners to creatively ensure growth and development, while being sensitive to the obvious transformation we all - industry members included - wish to see emerging sooner rather than later. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mr V C GORE: Chairperson and hon members, the ID is a party that is committed to transformation bridging the divides that were created because of the legacy of apartheid and realising the full potential of this country. As such we are fully in support of any initiative that is geared towards realising these ideals, and in particular the initiatives of the transformation of the marketing and advertising industry.

The ID encourages organisations, institutions, and in this case, sectors of our community to deal with the problem directly and transform by themselves. Government has an active and monitoring role to play in these processes. They should encourage through their position of advantage of ability to spend large amounts of money on ad placement.

In addition, where industry fails to self-regulate and transform, government has a responsibility to become more actively involved, but only after - and I stress only after - the industry has been given a chance to change. One area of concern for the ID in this current transformation process is the lack of attention and almost a complete failure to deal with women and people with disabilities. I thank you.

Mr M K LEKGORO: Thank you, Chair. The people of South Africa have ushered in a new political order. In 1994 they gave government a resounding mandate that their lives in all spheres of endeavour must change for the better. In accepting the mandate we had at the outset acknowledged that through their popular vote we had only achieved political freedom.

The dawn of that freedom marked the beginning of a long walk to redoing the economic landscape of the country. Issues of equal salary for equal work, black personnel in management, executive positions and issues of ownership came to the fore. That is the reason the transformation of all industries is a topical issue in our society today.

In locating today’s discussion within that ongoing mandate from our people, the question before us is: Has the marketing and advertising industry transformed in line with our national mandate? The intention of the committee, in bringing this matter to the House, is to put this industry in the public spotlight so that the electorate can be our judges as we continue to seek transformation in this industry.

This is an industry that goes to the core of the values of our society. What they produce and put out to the public tells us who we are. It tells us how we are socialised as a people. In short, it depicts our norms and values. The world sees us through what this industry depicts. So, connected to the transformation of this industry is the desire that it must tell a true South African story, as opposed to an American or a European story imposed as if it’s our own.

Our portfolio committee has since 2001, through a response to the complaints about patterns of advertising spending, sought to interact with the industry by urging it that, in light of the new dispensation, it cannot be business as usual in our country. We did so well aware that there are no statutory instruments at our disposal to impose any change in this industry.

However, we honestly held the opinion that South Africans in all their endeavours from across all racial lines would in all probability embrace change. It was in that spirit that we have over the years engaged with the industry.

We are comforted by the fact that at least on the theoretical level members of the industry, through their representatives, express their appreciation that in order to meet the expectations of consumers in the modern-day South Africa, the industry has to transform. What still remains to be seen is the actual act of the industry transforming.

Some amongst us have warned that we are being overoptimistic in imagining that an industry rooted in the past and driven by profits can willingly transform itself. We take that caution very seriously, and hope that for the sake of us all we achieve the desired results.

We are able to report that the industry, since our interaction, has put together a values statement embodying the values and goals of transformation; that a monitoring and steering committee, with representatives from the industry bodies across the advertising and marketing value chain, including both the public and the private sector, was established to lead the transformation process; and that a process has been initiated towards the establishment of an industry-wide broad-based black economic empowerment scorecard that will provide a common framework for the whole of the value chain.

Further, there has been an improvement in the relation between the pattern of expenditure and the composition of media audiences, more so in the case of government advertising. The top 10 advertising agencies have set remarkable benchmarks for black economic empowerment, with some having upped the stakes to 51% and more. Sadly, this impressive movement is lacking in the creative area and media planning, for example.

As much as we can attest to movement from one form to the other, on behalf of the committee we wish to submit that the industry could do more and better. Coming from different political persuasions in this House, we might not agree on what transformation is, the pace at which it should happen and how far we could stretch it.

Classical liberals, as they are known in contemporary politics - and who, by the way, lest we forget, in the terminology of our movement are referred to as reactionaries - will continue to say that we must leave these processes to the market. We must simply treat their concerns as immaterial. The material issue is that there are people, and for that matter the majority of the people, who mandated us to change their lives for the better.

Thus we wish to take this opportunity to urge the industry to do everything in its power to forge ahead and take strides in this transformation process. And finally we wish to serve notice that we have no intention of burdening our next generations with the inequalities of this industry. This transformation must happen and be achieved in our lifetime. I thank you. [Applause.]

Debate concluded.

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, we move that the Report be adopted.

Motion agreed to (Democratic Alliance dissenting).

                     Report accordingly adopted.

PROTECTION OF CONSTITUTIONAL DEMOCRACY AGAINST TERRORIST AND RELATED
                           ACTIVITIES BILL

            (Consideration of Bill and of Report thereon)

The MINISTER OF SAFETY AND SECURITY: Chairperson and colleagues, the hon members of this House, the short title of this Bill speaks about the protection of our constitutional democracy. It is therefore no surprise that the drafting processes, which led to the product that is before the House for consideration, reflect exactly those values as enshrined in the Constitution.

Even the consideration of the Bill last week by the NCOP in Empangeni in KwaZulu-Natal, as part of the project to bring Parliament to the people, was a most fitting step towards the conclusion of the constitutional processes. I must say that it was the most vibrant experience to address the House in KZN, with so many people from the province itself in the gallery.

Today, therefore, we can truly say that with the consultation on and drafting of the Bill, we let the people speak. But more than that, we can truly say that government had listened to the people.

The nature and the topic of this Bill, viewed against the backdrop of our country’s history, was enough reason to be cautious and to expect some form of vigilance from our people on what should be contained in the Bill. How can we forget that our own struggle for the liberation of our people was referred to as terrorism?

Clearly this Bill is expected to reflect in all respects the values and principles in our nascent democracy, whilst at the same time to provide the necessary tools for law enforcement to protect those very democratic values and principles.

When we embarked on a process to draft counterterrorism legislation for the Republic we knew that it would not be and easy process, in view of the history of security legislation under the apartheid regime that institutionalised third-degree interrogation, indefinite detention without trial, the banning of organisations, restrictions on the media, banning of persons and severe restrictions on gatherings and demonstrations; and of course you will remember that even funerals fell under that category.

That is therefore the reason that the Bill followed the elaborate consultation processes through the South African Law Reform Commission, elaborate public hearings and every other step in the parliamentary process. The concerns raised regarding the Bill ranged from objections against its name - as you remember it was initially referred to as The Anti- Terrorism Bill - to some political and religious concerns. The labour federation Cosatu was worried the Bill might interfere with the exercising of their constitutional rights related to industrial action. There were also concerns from the media that the Bill might suppress their freedom.

We have listened to each and every voice and every possible step was taken to address every legitimate and reasonable concern. This was our attitude, not only in the processes and Parliament. We also engaged people outside of those processes to give as many as possible role-players an opportunity to discuss whatever concerns they had.

During the South African Law Reform Commission processes, the number and variety of persons and institutions commenting on the discussion paper and draft Bill reflected the wide interest on the matter. Responses to the discussion paper of the Law Commission were received from the judiciary, the magistracy, side-bar societies, the National Prosecuting Authority, attorneys, advocates, human rights organisations, government departments, religious organisations and other organisations, and from no less than 62 individuals.

Not only respondents who were interested in doing so, but numerous others were allowed - during the elaborate public hearings of the Portfolio Committee for Safety and Security, assisted by the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence, the finance committee, the foreign affairs committee and the justice and constitution affairs committee - to air their views and concerns with the widest possible media coverage. Some persons and institutions even had several bites at the cherry by appearing before the committee, wearing different hats and representing different institutions or organisations.

Also in the NCOP the utmost leniency was evident during deliberations, by again listening to practical concerns voiced even at a very late stage. Let it be to our credit that we have done everything humanly possible to meet all reasonable concerns regarding the Bill.

I wish to thank members of this House again for the valuable role they played in finalising the text of the Bill. I am convinced that we have obtained the best possible version of the Bill, enabling the Republic to comply with our international and national obligations in respect of combating terrorism.

I also wish to thank the Office of the Leader of Government Business, the Select Committee on Security and Constitutional Affairs, the Portfolio Committee on Safety and Security and this House for ensuring that this Bill is being finalised during the present session of Parliament.

I move that the House approves the report of the Portfolio Committee on Safety and Security and adopt the Protection of Constitutional Democracy against Terrorist and Related Activities Bill. Thank you. [Applause.]

There was no debate.

The DEPUTY CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, I move that the Bill, as amended by the Committee on Safety and Security, be passed.

Motion agreed to.

Bill accordingly passed.

               DRAFT NOTICE FOR DECLARATION OF AMNESTY


               (Consideration of Request for Approval)

There was no debate.

Draft Notice for Declaration of Amnesty approved.

DRAFT NOTICE AND SCHEDULE DETERMINING THE RATE AT WHICH SALARIES ARE    PAYABLE TO CONSTITUTIONAL COURT JUDGES AND JUDGES ANNUALLY, WITH EFFECT
                          FROM 1 APRIL 2004

               Consideration of Request for Approval)

There was no debate.

Draft notice and schedule determining the rate at which salaries are payable to Constitutional Court judges and judges annually with effect from 1 April 2004 approved.

DRAFT NOTICE AND SCHEDULE DETERMINING THE RATE AT WHICH SALARIES ARE
    PAYABLE TO MAGISTATES ANNUALLY, WITH EFFECT FROM 1 APRIL 2004

               (Consideration of Request for Approval)

There was no debate.

Draft notice and schedule determining the rate at which salaries are payable to magistrates annually with effect from 1 April 2004 approved.

        ALLEGATIONS OF NONDISCLOSURE BY MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT

 (Consideration of Report of Joint Committee on Ethics and Members’
                             Interests)

Mr L T LANDERS: Chairperson, the content of our report speaks for itself. Therefore, I will not refer to it, except to allude to it in the statement I am about to make. The Code of Conduct for members of Parliament allows MPs to hold financial interests, but also requires that they disclose these interests. This allows members to pursue their financial interests in an open and transparent manner.

The report before this House indicates that many of the nondisclosures by members were as a result of misunderstanding the Code of Conduct, particularly with regard to the disclosure of dormant companies. We do want to stress that in none of the cases dealt with by the committee was there any evidence or implication of corruption or conflict of interests on the part of the members concerned. Indeed, we reiterate what is contained in the conclusions of our report, namely that no member withheld any information from the committee or deliberately tried to mislead it.

The reprimands and sanctions meted out to members are in accordance with the Joint Rules of Parliament. This allows Parliament to enforce its own rules, and further it views the nondisclosure by members in a serious light. Parliament will always ensure that when there is a breach of the Code, it invokes the penalties laid down in our Rules and applies them consistently without fear or favour.

However, there is a need continuously and effectively to raise awareness amongst MPs about the requirements of the Code, the importance of disclosure and the updating of the register, as well as the serious consequences for failing to do so.

Members of Parliament are elected public representatives, and cannot be seen to be in violation of the Rules of Parliament. Therefore, the committee must be seen to be acting to ensure compliance, and has accordingly issued these sanctions to demonstrate its serious intent to enforce our Code.

At this point, as we always do, we humbly request this House to adopt our report, and we ask that the findings and recommendations contained therein be implemented speedily. I thank you. [Applause.]

There was no debate.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chairperson, let me start by questioning the procedure. I thought that the affected members would be given an opportunity to say something - if you find it correct, sir.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr N P Nhleko): They will be given an opportunity after the adoption.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Chair, I then move for the adoption of the Report.

Question put: That the Report be adopted.

Declarations of vote:

Adv H C SCHMIDT: Mr Chairperson, the DA agrees with the convictions of the hon Mr M T Goniwe, Chief Whip of the ANC, the hon Mrs N B Gxowa, Deputy Minister N E Hangana, Deputy Minister R L Padayachie, Mr N A Ramathlodi and Deputy Minister L M Xingwana for failing to declare their directorships in companies following reports in the Mail and Guardian. Whilst agreeing with the conclusion reached by the committee in clearing Deputy Minister D A Hanekom, the hon Adv S P Holomisa and Deputy Minister S Shabangu of all charges, the DA strongly disagrees with the decisions to exonerate Ms J L Kgoali, Chairperson of the NCOP, Mrs M L Ngwenya and Ms M A A Njobe on similar charges.

Ms Kgoali’s failure to declare a directorship in respect of All Pay, a separate company from Sediba sa Basadi, ought to have led to a conviction for failing to declare a directorship in All Pay. She declared a directorship in Sediba sa Basadi, an empowerment partner of All Pay, but failed to do so in respect of All Pay.

The DA is of the view that her failure to have done so renders her unfit to continue to occupy the important and prominent position of Chairperson of the NCOP. [Interjections.] In the instance of Mr M Goniwe, the Chief Whip of the ANC… Interjections.]

Mr M DIKO: Chairperson, on a point of order: The Mail and Guardian apologised to Mr B Holomisa for the error that it made when it published that article. The member mentioned him when he read the list of names.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr N P Nhleko): Sir, that is not a point of order. It’s a response to a point. So, please proceed, sir.

Adv H C SCHMIDT: Chair, in the instance of Mr Goniwe, the Chief Whip of the ANC, the fine of R1 000 each for two breaches of the Code of Conduct for failing to declare his directorships in two dormant companies is totally inadequate, considering his position. He should set an example as Chief Whip, and a heavier sentence ought therefore to have been imposed by the committee.

The imposition of a penalty of R2 000 for his failure to declare his directorships in two companies is tantamount to condoning such failure. The example set for other members who are tempted to conceal their assets is appalling. They will know that the penalty for failure, even a wilful failure, which is not relevant here, is so slight that dishonesty pays.

The DA therefore calls upon Parliament to impose a heavier sentence on the Chief Whip, Mr Goniwe, as well as overturning the finding of not guilty relating to Ms Kgoali to one of having contravened the Code of Conduct by failing to declare her directorship in All Pay. Her immediate removal as Chairperson of the NCOP should then follow. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr M T LIKOTSI: Chairperson, the PAC of Azania carefully went through the report. We approved the findings of the committee and hope members will adhere strictly to Parliament’s rule regarding members’ ethics and members’ interests. The problem we are faced with in our country is to merge African and Western attitudes of dealing with issues.

In the African way most things are done by way of a gentlemen’s agreement, whilst in the Western way it is by way of written contracts and binding rules. [Applause.] [Laughter.]

Mrs C DUDLEY: Chairperson, the ACDP acknowledges that in many instances members have been unclear in terms of their duty to disclose businesses that are defunct or not operational. In some instances this is due to the fact that a note, which refers specifically to dormant companies, is not found in the Code of Conduct, but on a sheet of paper, which is separate to the Rules booklet.

We do, however, believe that it is important to set an example whereby members of Parliament are expected to uphold their own Rules. Of course there is a difference between technical offences and genuine dishonesty, corruption and undue influence being exerted, and this distinction must be drawn.

The ACDP supports efforts by the Ethics Committee to treat these issues seriously and to apply penalties, which will help enforce a culture of attention to detail when it comes to ethical conduct of MPs. Thank you.

Mrs P DE LILLE: Chairperson, ignorance of the law or ignorance of a rule is no excuse. Members must read instructions. Note 3 and its explanatory note states that all directorships and partnerships must be disclosed, including those in dormant companies.

Members are also advised personally to ensure that the information held by the Registrar of Companies is correct. That places a responsibility on members of Parliament. They must accept responsibility for their business interests. They must also declare such interests before the cut-off date. They should not wait for a media report to raise a company, and only then run and declare the company. The cut-off date sometimes gets extended for months to allow members to comply.

For the committee to say that because a company is dormant, therefore it is not a serious offence, really contradicts our own Code, and we should be looking more seriously at this. Breach of the Code of Conduct really means that you did not declare your dormant company or business interests before the cut-off date. That is the breach, because it is not in the register. We can’t begin to qualify what is a breach, because then we are going to run into serious problems.

Once again, the ID requests Parliament to come up with legislation that can give effect to the Code of Conduct. Otherwise the way we are dealing with the Code of Conduct now makes a mockery of the Code of Ethics, and certainly the ID will not accept this report. Thank you. [Interjections.]

Mr D GUMEDE: Chairperson, allow me to put this report into context. We see dormant companies as companies that have never operated at all. We do not mean that these companies have been temporarily inactive, but they have never operated at all. They are just registered and have listed directors.

So, when we talk about dormant companies, we are talking about these cases. That is the first point. The second point is that we found no conflict of interest between the positions the accused held and the type of interests that it was alleged they possessed.

Thirdly, some organisations mentioned, like Malibongwe, are not for profit. Instead, the accused members pay their own money to assist them to operate. These interests are not financial, and the Code is clear on this, namely that if the purpose of the organisation is to assist communities to be members of a club and so forth, where the member does not derive any financial interest, it is out of the ambit of this Code.

Lastly, the Code of Conduct is written in formal English. The Constitution acknowledges, and I think there is a reason for it, 11 official languages. This Code of Conduct is only in English. Firstly, we would plead with Parliament to give the necessary support to all the members in the line of clarifying and simplifying the Code. Secondly, members should be assisted with access to the Internet and be given information that is readily available on the Internet. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

Mr M T MASUTHA: Chairperson, on a point of order: During the course of these deliberations hon Schmidt made a statement to the effect that an official of this Parliament, Ms Kgoali, is unfit to hold the office which she currently holds. I am of the opinion that this is in violation of Rule 66, in terms of which statements such as those cannot be made without a substantive motion. We would like him to withdraw those comments.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Chairperson, may I address you on that point of order. The very matter that we are discussing and considering at the moment is Ms Kgoali’s conduct, and an expression of opinion like that is perfectly in order. This House is being asked to impose a penalty on Ms Kgoali, and on that basis to suggest that you are not allowed to discuss the matter is just nonsense, with respect.

THE HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr N P Nhleko): Gentlemen, could I ask you to take your seats. Firstly, I think we need to correct this. The matter under discussion is not the conduct of Ms Kgoali. We are discussing a report from the committee. I think we have to be very clear on that specific question.

The second one is that we would also need to be given an opportunity from our end to study the record in terms of what exactly were the utterances and expressions of the hon member Schmidt. Thereafter I think we would be in a position to give a ruling to this House.

Question put: That the Report be adopted.

Division demanded.

The House divided:

AYES-202: Abram, S; Ainslie, A R; Anthony, T G; Arendse, J D; Asiya, S E; Baloyi, M R; Benjamin, J; Beukman, F; Bhamjee, Y S; Bhengu, F; Bhengu, M J; Bhengu, P; Bloem, D V; Bogopane-Zulu, H I; Cachalia, I M; Chalmers, J; Chauke, H P; Chikunga, L S; Chohan-Khota, F I; Combrinck, J J; Cwele, S C; De Lange, J H; Dhlamini, B W; Diale, L N; Didiza, A T; Dikgacwi, M M; Direko, I W; Dlali, D M; Fubbs, J L; Gabela, L S; Gaum, A H; Gerber, P A; Gillwald, C E; Godi, N T; Gogotya, N J; Gololo, C L; Goniwe, M T; Greyling, C H F; Gumede, D M; Gumede, M M; Hanekom, D A; Hendrickse, P; Herandien, C B; Hogan, B A; Jacobus, L; Jeffery, J H; Joemat, R R; Johnson, C B; Johnson, M; Kalako, M U; Kasienyane, O R; Kati, Z J; Kholwane, S E; Khumalo, K M; Khunou, N P; Komphela, B M; Kondlo, N C; Koornhof, G W; Kota, Z A; Kotwal, Z; Landers, L T; Lekgoro, M K; Lekgoro, M M S; Likotsi, M T; Lishivha, T E; Louw, J T; Louw, S K; Lucas, E J; Ludwabe, C I; Luthuli, A N; Maake, J J; Mabe, L L; Mabena, D C; Mabuyakhulu, D V; Madumise, M M; Magau, K R; Magazi, M N; Magwanishe, G B; Mahlangu-Nkabinde, G L; Mahote, S; Maine, M S; Maja, S J; Makasi, X C; Malahlela, M J; Maloyi, P D N; Maluleka, H P; Manana, M N S; Manie, M S; Mars, I; Martins, B A D; Maserumule, F T; Mashangoane, P R; Mashiane, L M; Mashigo, R J; Mashile, B L; Masithela, N H; Masutha, T M; Mathebe, P M; Mathibela, N F; Matlala, M H; Maunye, M M; Mbete, B; Mbombo, N D; Mentor, M P; Meruti, M V; Mgabadeli, H C; Mkhize, Z S; Mlangeni, A; Mnandi, P N; Moatshe, M S; Modisenyane, L J; Mofokeng, T R; Mogale, O M; Mohamed, I J; Mokoena, A D; Mokoto, N R; Moloto, K A; Montsitsi, S D; Morobi, D M; Morwamoche, K W; Mosala, B G; Moss, L N; Moss, M I; Motubatse-Hounkpatin, S D; Mpaka, H M; Mpontshane, A M; Mshudulu, S A; Mthembu, B; Mthethwa, E N; Mtshali, E; Mzondeki, M J G; Nel, A C; Nene, N M; Newhoudt-Druchen, W S; Ngaleka, E; Ngcobo, B T; Ngcobo, E N N; Ngele, N J; Ngema, M V; Ngwenya, M L; Nhlengethwa, D G; Njikelana, S J; Njobe, M A A; Nkuna, C; Nogumla, R Z; Nqakula, C; Ntuli, M M; Ntuli, S B; Nwamitwa-Shilubana, T L P; Nxumalo, M D; Nxumalo, S N; Nzimande, L P M; Olifant, D A A; Oliphant, G G; Pandor, G N M; Phadagi, M G; Phala, M J; Pieterse, R D; Radebe, B A; Ramakaba-Lesiea, M M; Ramgobin, M; Ramotsamai, C P M; Ramphele, T D H; Rasmeni, S M; Schneemann, G D; Schoeman, E A; Sefularo, M; Sekgobela, P S; September, C C; Sibande, M P; Sibanyoni, J B; Siboza, S; Sibuyana, M W; Sikakane, M R; Simmons, S; Skhosana, W M; Skosana, M B; Smith, V G; Solo, B M; Solomon, G; Sonto, M R; Sosibo, J E; Sotyu, M M; Surty, M E; Thomson, B; Tobias, T V; Tolo, L J; Tsenoli, S L; Tshivhase, T J; Tshwete, P; Turok, B; Van den Heever, R P Z; Van der Merwe, J H; Van Wyk, Annelizé; Vundisa, S S; Xingwana, L M; Xolo, E T; Yengeni, L L; Zikalala, C N Z; Zita, L; Zulu, B Z; Zulu, N E.

NOES-43: Batyi, F; Blanché, J P I; Botha, C-S; Burgess, C V; Camerer, S M; De Lille, P; Doman, W P; Dudley, C; Durr, K D S; Farrow, S B; Gibson, D H M; Gore, V C; Green, L M; Greyling, L W; Haasbroek, S F; Harding, A; Jankielsohn, R; King, R J; Lee, T D; Masango, S J; Mfundisi, IS; Minnie, K J; Mnyandu, B J; Morgan, G R; Morkel, C M; Nel, A H; Ntuli, R S; Opperman, S E; Rabie, P J; Sayedali-Shah, M R; Schmidt, H C; Semple, J A; Smuts, M; Swart, M; Swart, P S; Swart, S N; Swathe, M M; Van der Walt, D; Van Dyk, S M; Wang, Y; Waters, M; Weber, H; Zille, H.

ABSTAIN-7: Bici, J; Diko, M; Madikiza, G T; Mdaka, N M; Nkabinde, N C; Sigcau, Sylvia N; Stephens, M.

Report accordingly adopted.

                     COMMENTS BY HON H C SCHMIDT


                              (Ruling)

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr N P NHLEKO): Order! Hon members, during the discussion of the report that we have just voted on and accordingly adopted, a point of order was raised by hon Masutha with regard to the comments made by the hon Schmidt. I think we should be reminded that firstly, hon Kgoali is not a member of this House; and secondly, that we have always been governed and directed by a principle that says this House will not reflect on the conduct of members in the other House. Therefore, any references by any member, and in this specific case by the hon Schmidt, are comments that are inappropriate. I therefore request the hon Schmidt to withdraw his remark.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Chairperson, may I address you on this point of order?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr N P NHLEKO): Please proceed, hon member.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: The House was busy considering a report of the Joint Committee on Ethics and Members’ Interests. The ethics committee had been charged with investigating charges against members both of this House and of the other House, including Ms Kgoali, who happens to be the Chairperson of the NCOP. She was not being investigated in that capacity though. The committee then had to decide whether her conduct contravened the code of ethics or not. The majority of the members of the committee concluded that she had not contravened the code. Those from this side of the House believe that Ms Kgoali’s has conduct had contravened the code and they think that because of her seniority, it is a very serious matter. I submit to you that it is perfectly appropriate, if one believes that, to say that she should not continue as chairperson of that House.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr N P NHLEKO): Order! Hon members, I have accordingly given a ruling, but nevertheless for purposes of clarity on this matter, I think, Mr Gibson, we shouldn’t confuse two things. The structure referred to is a joint committee, and the House that is considering this issue is the National Assembly, and not a joint session. Therefore, the principle that says this House will not reflect upon the conduct of other members serving in another House is therefore appropriate, and that is the issue we are addressing. I just thought that maybe I would want to clarify that very same issue, but a ruling has been given in that regard: that it is not appropriate for this National Assembly to reflect upon the conduct of hon members who serve in the National Council of Provinces or the other House.

An additional point that I am being reminded of as well is that in any event this very same report is for consideration and deliberation by the very same House. Therefore, they will also accordingly look into it. Thank you. Therefore, hon Schmidt, I ask you to withdraw your comment. Adv H C SCHMIDT: Mr Chairperson, I withdraw it.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr N P NHLEKO): The report having been adopted we will now afford an opportunity to the following affected hon members, the Chief Whip of the Majority Party Mr Goniwe, Deputy Minister Hanekom, Deputy Minister Xingwana and hon Mr Gumede to address the House.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Mr House Chairperson, I want to make three points very quickly. Firstly, notwithstanding some reservations I may have about the procedures, I want to say that I fully accept the judgement by the committee and equally so express my full confidence in the chairperson and the collective that is working in that committee and express my sincerest regret for this oversight on my part. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY: Chairperson, I would also like to thank the committee for its work and for a job well done. I think that it’s important for us just to reflect on one or two points, if I may have the opportunity to do so.

Clearly, those members who were implicated in certain wrongdoings by the Mail and Guardian article would feel pleased and relieved that those who were exonerated by the committee feel pleased that their names were cleared. But that isn’t really the issue: the issue is that the committee did its work well and with integrity.

I think some of the lessons would be that, notwithstanding the comment that people are innocent or rather that ignorance is no excuse in the eyes of the law, we should recognise the fact that most of the people that were brought in front of this committee were people who did not derive any financial benefit and were in most cases genuinely not aware of what the specific requirements were, although the onus is on us to find out what exactly it is that we have to do. These are genuine cases of not deliberately declining to reveal what is required of us.

I think the other lesson from this is that notwithstanding the fact that we have rules, people will err. I think as members of this House the one thing we should never do is to take a gleeful attitude when people err. Even if a member of the DA or of the ID is guilty of wrongdoing, I should not say, well gee, this is a good opportunity for me to knock that particular party because the wrongdoing of one party reflects badly on everyone in this House. So, I think we should all say that we don’t take any delight when people are guilty of making errors or of wrongdoing. We say we want every member of this House to be members that we associate with with pride.

I think some of the lessons we have leant are that rules are very important as well as being clear guidelines. If we are going to minimise wrongdoing and errors, systems need to be put in place that are as much as possible easily understood, easily enforced and easily monitored. So, I think that is one of the challenges to the House.

My last point is that the media need to reflect very carefully. I think the Mail and Guardian in this case was guilty of making pronouncements and allegations without doing its homework properly. I think it should reflect on that. It is easy for us to be public representatives and to say we are in the spotlight. Yes, of course, we are. But the media also have responsibility and should exercise that responsibility much more carefully. I think the Mail and Guardian should reflect very seriously on whether they did justice to this country or not. Thank you very much. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF MINERALS AND ENERGY: Chairperson, I also want to declare that I accept the principle of transparency and accountability, but firstly, I want to thank the committee for clearing me regarding the allegations against Malibongwe.

I want to agree with the previous member that some of our journalists are completely unprofessional and unethical. I personally responded to the Mail and Guardian. I informed them that I had not been active in Malibongwe for the last four years and that I had been a Deputy Minister for only four months when they made this allegation. There was no way that I could have allocated a mine to my so-called company, as I was not a Deputy Minister last year.

I also want to declare that I am very proud to have been a member of Malibongwe, a nonprofit organisation that serves women, particularly rural and poor women. [Applause.] If I had the time I would have gone back and worked for Malibongwe. I also want to say that I am very proud to have worked with women veterans and leaders of the calibre of Makhosazana Nnjobe, Mme Lydia and Adelaide Tambo, as well as Nadine Gordimer, as directors of Malibongwe.

I want to stress that I responded to the Mail and Guardian, but because some of our journalists are interested in only telling the world that all MPs are corrupt and fraudulent I want to take this matter up with my lawyers.

On the matter of City Cat or Lebone, I genuinely was not aware that I was a director. Since its registration, I have never been invited to a single meeting of this company. I don’t know where they are doing business, and if they are doing business what kind of business. I’ve never received any remuneration. I’ve never received any dividends; therefore I do accept what the committee said.

I just want to raise a concern, namely that there are no proper procedures for appeal regarding this committee’s decisions and I think Parliament must take that into consideration. Thank you. [Applause.]

PROTOCOL TO THE AFRICAN CHARTER ON HUMAN AND PEOPLE’S RIGHTS ON THE RIGHTS OF WOMEN IN AFRICA

   (Consideration of Report of Portfolio Committee on Justice and    Constitutional Development and Request for Approval in terms of Section
                     231(2) of the Constitution)

Ms F I CHOHAN-KHOTA: Chairperson and hon members, the protocol before us is unusual in many respects. Firstly, it is a human rights instrument that applies at public international law level. This means that while it gives rights to citizens, particularly women, it is only member states, by and large, who are able to enforce it amongst each other.

Secondly, article 4(2)(j) of the protocol, while excluding the practice of the death penalty against women who are pregnant and women who are nursing, inadvertently allows the practice against other categories of women, including minors. Clearly, our Constitutional Court has ruled against the death penalty in our country, so this article finds no application in our country. However, the Constitutional Court has expressed that the right to life is sacrosanct and an inalienable right without which any other rights cannot find expression.

It has also broadened the application of the State’s duty to safeguard the rights of individuals beyond our borders. The existence of article 4(2)(j) of the protocol, therefore, may be construed to be an inadvertent sanctioning of the practice of the death penalty in other member states. This may conflict with section 2 of our Constitution, which upholds its own supremacy and invalidates all law and conduct inconsistent with it.

For Parliament to approve the protocol under the circumstances would have been potentially illegal and we, therefore, proposed that the House approves the protocol, subject to the reservations, as they are stated in the ATC, in order to ensure that no adverse legal consequences can be visited against Parliament and the executive pertaining to the ratification of the protocol.

This, in itself, gave rise to a whole host of legal questions and debates about whether Parliament has the inherent right to invoke such reservations. The legal opinions ranged from no to yes and every hue inbetween. I particularly appreciated the view of the hon Kader Asmal, who argued that Parliament doesn’t have the inherent right, but where there is executive concurrence the adoption by Parliament is entirely in order.

I label that particular kind of opinion as being certainly very wise and very strategic, but also typically South African, in the sense that it’s a ja-nee approach. However, I believe it is pragmatic, and I do believe that sometimes we need to be pragmatic, particularly because the reservations we proposed are essentially going to have the effect of being a communiqué to the executive by Parliament to affect reservations, failing which, of course, Parliament’s concurrence will not have been achieved.

Together with this reservation, the committee adopted the reservations orally proposed by the South African negotiating teams during the construction of the protocol. These relate essentially to the customary marriages, where our country protects women whose marriages are not reduced to written certificates. Secondly, our negotiating teams endorsed a reservation against article 6(h) of the protocol, which makes the inherent right to citizenship and nationality of children subject to national security interests.

We have also proposed to the executives that two interpretive declarations be made: firstly, against the definition of discrimination against women which, in many respects, differs from our own interpretation of the equality clause. Our courts have developed the concept of unfair discrimination in order to promote full societal equality, so that even previously disadvantaged individuals are preferred in certain circumstances.

Secondly, because of our inherent system of limitations, another interpretive declaration is made to the effect that the mere existence of these limitations in our Constitution should not be interpreted to be a less-favourable-rights regime. In fact, that is precisely the unusual nature of this protocol. By affecting these reservations, Parliament does not detract from the promotion of a rights jurisprudence on our continent, but exactly the opposite is true; we actually enhance such a development on our continent. We point out that there is a mutually complimentary relationship that exists between our jurisprudence and that which is beginning to develop on our continent.

This document is not a trailblazer in our country, but its worth is found in the fact that it exists, and that it exists in Africa; that for the first time in some cultures completely opposed to the very notion of the equality of genders, women are seen to be deserving of special protection and special status.

We should, instead of decrying its legal shortcomings, praise this initiative of African countries and encourage the progressive realisation of more and more rights as we enter the twenty-first century. I commend this protocol to the House and I thank you for your time, hon members. [Applause.]

There was no debate.

The SPEAKER: Are there any objections to the adoption of the report of the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Constitutional Development on the Protocol to the African Charter on Human and People’s Rights on the Rights of Women in Africa?

Mr L M GREEN: Madam Speaker, we did not raise an objection, but we have asked for an opportunity to declare our vote.

Declarations of vote:

Mr S N SWART: Thank you, Madam Speaker. The ACDP fully recognises the crucial role women play in the preservation of our continent’s values based on the principles of equality, peace, freedom, dignity, justice and democracy. We are also aware that despite the ratification of the African Charter and other international human rights instruments by the majority of African nations, women and girls in Africa still continue to be victims of discrimination and harmful practices.

Therefore, whilst the ACDP does not agree with all aspects of the portfolio committee’s report, we do support the request for approval by Parliament of the protocol in view of these many positive provisions contained therein. In this regard, we wish to specifically record our reservation to article 14 thereof. Article 14, whilst containing laudable provisions relating to health, authorises abortion, albeit in certain limited circumstance and not on demand. [Interjections.] Our position on capital punishment is well known and therefore we do not support the committee’s comments that are contrary to our party’s position. Notwithstanding the above, the ACDP is prepared to support the request for approval of the protocol. I thank you.

The SPEAKER: Are there any other declarations?

Mrs S M CAMERER: Madam Speaker, I apologise for not having had the opportunity to prepare, because I was unaware that I would have the opportunity to speak. I want to support what the Chair has said, but also to note that this protocol is a very controversial measure in many ways. We support the fact that the reservations had been appealed for and should be noted, because I think it would be highly improper for our Parliament to support the protocol without reservations. Thank you.

Mr P D N MALOYI: Chair, I would like to give a piece of advice, and the advice is that it is important for members of Parliament to read. After reading, it is key for them to ask questions and, after asking questions, it is very important for them to listen when they are answered.

It is unethical for the ACDP to want to parachute the question of abortion into this debate. Yesterday, when we spoke in this Chamber, we were talking about the choice of termination. The ACDP as members of the committee - we would have assumed as members of the ANC …

Mr L M GREEN: On a point of order, Madam Speaker.

The SPEAKER: Yes, hon member.

Mr L M GREEN: A ruling was made yesterday by the presiding officer on exactly this matter. It was dealt with, and I think the member is raising the same issue in terms of which our member was allowed to use the words preferred by our member, and that was the ruling of the Chair. This member is now going against that ruling.

The SPEAKER: I am not familiar with the point of order you are talking about and the words you are referring to, but my understanding is that this hon member is really relating his words in respect of what you were saying.

Mr L M GREEM: Yes, but let me just bring to your attention that the word “abortion” is in the protocol.

The SPEAKER: No, that’s fine. I don’t think the word was the issue. I thought that what he was saying, the point he was raising, was about bringing that particular debate into this discussion on this report, and not so much the word “abortion” as such. I think, hon member, proceed with your declaration of vote.

Mr P D N MALOYI: Chair, listening is a skill. It is now becoming an art, so it is important for hon members to listen. What we are saying is that, as the ANC, we support this protocol as outlined by the chairperson. As I was saying earlier, let us not parachute other issues into this particular protocol, because we spoke a lot yesterday about the choice of termination of pregnancy, and let us not open that particular debate.

So, as the ANC we support the protocol and we request all members of Parliament, irrespective of their political affiliations, to read, to ask questions and to listen. I thank you, Chair. [Applause.]

Report adopted.

Protocol to the African Charter on Human and People’s Rights on the Rights of Women in Africa approved with reservations contained in the committee’s report as adopted.

The SPEAKER: Now, hon members, that brings us to the last item on the Order Paper, which is the Farewell Speeches, our favourite item on any Order Paper in any year.

                          FAREWELL SPEECHES

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Thank you, Speaker. It is my privilege to say some words of thanks and farewell on behalf of the DA.

Firstly, I express my grateful thanks to the parliamentary staff at all levels for the service that we have received this year. There are deficiencies and shortcomings, but most of the people with whom I come into contact with are kind, pleasant and efficient. I want, particularly, to thank the service officers, the security people and the catering staff for their good service this year.

This year, 2004, has been a tumultuous and tough year for people in and around Parliament. Those of us who are old politicians had a torrid and lengthy election campaign before we got back. Those of us who are here for the first time have had to learn a great deal and adapt to many new ideas and experiences in a short time. I thank, in particular, the members of the DA team for their positive contribution at all times in this House to nation-building and to strengthening democracy.

The miracle of this session is that the ANC has managed to get through a whole session without having to change their Chief Whip. I am working on the hon Mr Goniwe, because people are starting to blame me for the fact that there is a rapid turnover and burnout among ANC Chief Whips. [Laughter.] They have had six, and I am still here, so I am going to keep him. I am going to keep him at least until next year. I believe they were giving out trophies to the ex-Chief Whips. They should have given me six at the same time as they gave them, with what I’ve had to put up with from them. [Laughter.]

Having said all of those nice things, I now want to be a bit more serious, and say that the most serious aspect of Parliament this year has been the whole Travelgate scandal, which has hung over both Houses and all MPs. According to the Speaker the beginnings of the travel voucher scandal came to light almost two years ago. Chief Whips were told by the Speaker early in August that the Scorpions were ready to arrest 23 MPs, but would hold off until 18 August, pending interviews. Some ANC MPs refused to go and the exact status of those interviews is no longer clear. What is clear is that three months have gone by and not a single member of Parliament has been arrested.

To many others and me it’s not acceptable that the matter has dragged on in this way. There is a cloud hanging over every MP, those who are honest, as well as those who are alleged to have committed criminal offences. I am not a crook and I do not enjoy having members of the public assume that all MPs are thieves, because they are not.

What concerns me even more than the 23 who have not been charged, is the 70 others who are allegedly implicated in the Bathong Travel affair. I do not understand why Bathong Travel has not been liquidated. I want to state clearly that I have received information to the effect that the liquidation will not proceed, because certain people are determined that there will be no liquidation enquiry and no interrogation of the guilty.

The SPEAKER: Order, hon member. Yes, hon member, what is your point of order?

Mr M S MANIE: Madam Speaker, I rise on a point of order. The item is quite clear in that we are having farewell speeches. The member is raising substantive matters that are totally unrelated to this issue. I wish you to bring him to order please. [Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: Hon Gibson, that is actually true. However, I will allow you to finish your speech. I do want to respond to some aspects of what you are saying.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Thank you, Speaker. This means that if no liquidation takes place, there will be no interrogation of the guilty and it means that nobody is going to be able to testify under oath and, unless we are very careful, nobody will pay for their misdeeds.

It is also strongly rumoured that Parliament is trying to arrange for a payment of R400 000 in full settlement of the Bathong debt and that MPs will then merely have to refund Parliament.

There are allegations that the police are not co-operating with the Scorpions. There are rumours that Parliament itself is not being very co- operative. There are certain allegations that people have been charged to handle the matter to minimise the embarrassment.

However unpleasant it might be to raise words like this during a farewell message, this is an important matter affecting Parliament for the whole of South Africa, and I can’t just pretend that it’s not here, and we mustn’t pretend that it is not here. Anybody who thinks that there is going to be a cover-up and that the Travelgate scandal will go away, does so over my dead body.

The SPEAKER: Order, hon member! Yes, hon Green.

Mr L M GREEN: Madam Speaker, on a point of order. I’m sure that all political parties here would like to respond to the substantive issues raised by the hon Gibson. We are not being given that opportunity because we have prepared ourselves for farewell speeches. So, I think, Madam Speaker, you have to rule on this issue in that we stick to the subject.

The SPEAKER: Yes, you are correct, hon Green. As I indicated earlier on, I am simply allowing the hon Gibson to finish his speech out of courtesy from the Chair. However, it is out of order. It really is, hon Gibson, out of order for you to be consistently standing there, abusing the opportunity to give a farewell speech in order to raise a whole range of controversial rumours and supposed facts. You are even misquoting me in the process. It is actually because of this that I thought I would let you finish. But, really, I regret that you have decided to use this opportunity of farewell speeches, which is usually a very cordial opportunity, to be so opposite to the spirit of farewell speeches.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Madam, I regret that it’s necessary for me to use the opportunity. [Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: Hon members, allow the hon member to finish his speech.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: Parliament belongs not just to members of Parliament but to all of the people, and we need to stand up for honesty and integrity in public life. We need less lip service to the people and much more determined honest action. Although Parliament is adjourning, quite a number of committees will meet next week and there is still a great deal of work to be done in the field and in the constituencies. I extend my very best wishes to all friends and colleagues in the House, and I wish the Christians, … [Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: Order, hon members!

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: … a blessed Christmas; the Muslims; Eid Mubarak; the Hindus, a blessed Diwali … [Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: Order, hon members! Allow the hon member to finish. [Interjections.] Hon members, please allow the hon Gibson to finish.

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE OPPOSITION: It’s very easy to be popular, and it’s not so easy to be unpopular. I wish all the Christians a blessed Christmas, the Muslims Eid Mubarak, the Hindus a blessed Diwali and everyone else a happy holiday. [Applause.]

The SPEAKER: Order, Order! Hon Bloem, please take your seat. I simply want to take this opportunity, firstly, to indicate that it is inaccurate to say that the Speaker said, in addressing the Chief Whips of all parties, that the Scorpions were ready to arrest 23 members. It is simply not true. I reported to the Chief Whips that we had been handed 23 names of members with whom the Scorpions wished to interact in pursuit of the work that they were doing in the particular probe. To say that they were ready to arrest those members is simply not telling the truth. That is the first thing.

Secondly, I want to appeal to every member who is going to stand at the podium not to follow the unfortunate example set by hon Gibson. They should proceed in the spirit of the usual farewell speeches so that we can go home. We hope that hon Gibson, in the course of the festive season, is going to change his attitude.

Mr A MLANGENI: May I address you on a point of order, Madam Speaker?

The SPEAKER: What is your point of order?

Mr A MLANGENI: Mr Gibson …

The SPEAKER: Hon member, please don’t go back to hon Gibson. Let’s let hon Gibson go home and …

Mr A MLANGENI: No, no, no! I’m going to ask him to apologise to you, Madam Speaker. We want him to apologise for misquoting you. He is an old politician and an old member of Parliament. For him to come and make such a statement in Parliament, and say that the Speaker said this and that, is incorrect. He should please apologise.

The SPEAKER: Hon member, please allow me to chair. Let’s leave hon Gibson alone and let me call upon hon Van der Merwe to address the House.

Mr J H VAN DER MERWE: Madam Speaker, I just want to deliver a farewell speech today. At the end of this month I will have been a member of Parliament for 27 consecutive years. I have, however, discovered, to my own humiliation, that I have always spoken in either Afrikaans or English. I never, in 20 years, tried to speak in any one of the other indigenous languages. Today I want to put that right. I’m going to speak in Sesotho. [Applause.]

Mme Speaker le ditho tsa Palamente. Kajeno ke batla ho leka ho bua Sesotho sa Borwa. Wa bona, ke holetse mane Freistata, moo ke ithutileng Sesotho hanyane teng. Batho ba bang ba mpitsa Mojapere, ha ba bang ba mpitsa Mojatransporoto.[Ditsheho.] Letona la Tshireletso ke mojapere e moholo empa o bua puo ya Afrikaans hantle haholo.

Afrika Borwa e na le dipuo tse leshome le motso o le mong tsa semmuso. Ke nahana hore bohle re tshwanetse ho leka ho ithuta dipuo tse ngata. Ke tsela eo re tla utlwisisanang hantle ka yona. Mme Speaker ke dumellana le bao ba buileng pele ho nna, empa, o monna o batla monate feela. [Ditlatse.][Ditsheho.]

Lebitsong la IFP, le nna ke rata ho leboha batho bohle ba thusitseng ho tlisa katleho selemong sa 2004. Mothating ona re lokela ho hopola hore le ha re dutse mekgatlong e fapaneng bohle re ntse re le batho feela. Bohle re bopilwe ke Modimo, bohle re leka ho etsa dintho tse ntle feela. Kajeno ha se letsatsi la ho ngangisana, ke nako ya ho bua ka dintho tse ntle. Kahoo, lebitsong la Moporesidente wa IFP, le ditho tsohle tsa rona tsa IFP, ke le lakaletsa leeto le bolokehileng ho ya hae.

Re le lakaletsa phomolo e monate. Re lakaletsa thabo ho ba malapa le metswalle ya lona. Re le lakaletsa Keresemese e monate, mmoho le selemo se setjha sa katleho. Jwale re rapele hore Modimo a ke a otlolle letsoho la hae hodima rona ho fihlela re kopana hape. Ke lekile ka hohle. Tsamayang ka kgotso. [Ditlatse.] ( Translation of Sotho paragraphs follows.)

[Madam Speaker and members of Parliament. Today I shall make an attempt to speak Southern Sotho. I grew up in the Free State where I learnt to speak a little Sesotho. It is for that reason that some people call me Mojapere, while others call me Mojatransporoto. [Laughter.] The Minister of Defence is a great Mojapere, but he speaks fluent Afrikaans.

South Africa has eleven official languages. I am of the opinion that we should all try to learn as many languages as possible. That will improve our communication with one another. Madam Speaker, I therefore concur with the previous speaker, but you are a man and you are only interested in a nice time. [Applause.] [Laughter.]

On behalf of the IFP I would like to thank all the people who participated in bringing success to our country in 2004. At this juncture we should bear in mind that even though we are representatives of different parties, we are still ordinary human beings. We were all created by God, and we all try to do only good things. Today is a day for debate and it is time to speak about good things. Therefore, on behalf of the president of the IFP and all members of the IFP, I wish you a safe journey home.

We wish you happy holidays. May your families and your friends be forever happy. Merry Christmas and a successful new year. Let us pray God that He may keep us until we meet again. Farewell. [Applause.]]

Mr M DIKO: Madam Speaker, we have reached the end of the first year of the third democratic Parliament of South Africa. It seems that we had barely been sworn in when in the blink of an eye we discovered that the end of the year has arrived. It has been a very busy year for all members, starting with an intensive election campaign, and having to deal with the parliamentary budget process some months later than it would normally have been.

Since then we have passed numerous pieces of legislation and conducted various public hearings. As has become the norm, the Parliament of South Africa has been very productive. A productive and vibrant Parliament is an asset to democracy. Without becoming arrogant we can applaud our success. In so doing we must also pay tribute to the parliamentary staff who assists us in keeping the wheels of this great machine turning smoothly.

Allow me to thank all members of the House for their contribution and participation in the proceedings of the institution. We may not always agree ideologically, but we are all democrats seeking the best possible solutions to the challenges facing the nation.

Somlomo, ndifun’ ukuthi abanye igazi liseshushu, ngoko kufuneka bahambe bakhe baye kuqubha mhlawumbi baya kubuya bepholile. [Uwele-wele.] Ndinga ndingathi kumaKrestu, akwaba anganeKrisimesi emnandi. Kwabenkolo yamaMuslim ndithi, “Eid Mubarak”. KumaHindu ndithi akwaba bangabhiyoza kamnandi bebhiyozela ukoyiswa kobumnyama kukukhanya. (Translation of Xhosa paragraph follows.)

[Madam Speaker, I reckon that some members may need to cool down and therefore this time would be welcome to them. [Interjections.] May the Christians have a peaceful Christmas. To those that follow the Muslim religion I say, “Eid Mubarak”, and best wishes to the Hindus who will be celebrating the victory of light over darkness.] I wish all members of Parliament, on behalf of the UDM, a happy holiday and I hope that when we come back we’ll be ready to work.

Mhlawumbi, Douglas, sobuya sonke siphethe iiglavu. Ngoku besingaziphethanga kuba besisithi size konwabisana apha. Enkosi. [Uwele-wele.] [Kwaqhwatywa.] (Translation of Xhosa paragraph follows.)

[Hon Douglas, maybe when we come back we will all put our gloves on. We did not find it necessary to put them on because we thought that we had come to entertain ourselves here. Thank you. [Interjections.] [Applause.]]

Mr A HARDING: Thank you, Madam Speaker. The past year has indeed been very exciting and challenging for the Independent Democrats. To have achieved what the ID did in less than 24 months meant that we had to put in quite a bit of hard work. We will certainly be taking a well-deserved rest.

I must just say that although we have found very many staff members and many of the people around Parliament helpful, as a new MP I have found that the institution is fairly unfriendly and unco-operative. Furthermore, the institution is, in certain critical areas, weak and dysfunctional. We as the ID look forward to a more organised and dynamic Parliament in the very near future.

In conclusion, we wish all MPs, members of the Cabinet and all the other religious groupings a good holiday. As usual, the choir at the back there has been singing loudly, but mostly falsely, and I think that these holidays are just what their tired voices need. Thank you.

Mr C H F GREYLING: Madam Speaker, at the end of the first session of the third democratic Parliament it is my pleasure to say a few words of thanks and to convey our season’s greetings. Therefore, I want to thank you, Madam Speaker, as well as Madam Deputy Speaker, for your sometimes difficult role, not only in maintaining the dignity of the House, but also in keeping order.

Waar ons nou drie Voorsitters van die Huis het, wil ek ook graag aan hulle dank betuig vir die onderskeie rolle wat hul speel om die Parlementêre prosesse vlot te laat verloop. Dit is ook gepas om ons dank uit te spreek teenoor die Hoofsweep en die Adjunkhoofsweep van die Meerderheidsparty vir hul doeltreffende hantering van die Hoofswepeforum. Ook aan alle Swepe aan opposisiekant, dankie vir die samewerking in die forums waar ons besluite moet neem in die belang van alle lede van die Parlement.

Waardering ook aan die nuwe Sekretaris van die Parlement, en u word voorspoed toegewens met die moeilike taak wat vir u voorlê. Aan die Adjunksekretaris, Sekretaris van die Nasionale Vergadering, alle Tafelpersoneel, diensbeamptes, spysenieringspersoneel, veiligheidsbeamptes – alhoewel hulle nog steeds ons kattebakke hard toeslaan, en so ook ons enjinkappe – en alle ander personeel wat die Parlement se wiele ge-olie moet hou, ons opregte dank en waardering.

Ook ‘n woord van dank aan die media wat die publiek ingelig hou oor die werksaamhede van die Parlement en sy vele komitees. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows)

[Now that we have three Chairpersons of the House, I would also like to express my thanks to them for the various roles that they play in streamlining the parliamentary processes. It is also fitting to express our thanks to the Chief Whip and the Deputy Chief Whip of the Majority Party for their efficient management of the Chief Whips Forum. Also to all the Whips on the opposition side, thank you for your co-operation in the forums where we have to take decisions in the interests of all members of Parliament.

Appreciation also goes to the new Secretary to Parliament, and we wish you success with the difficult task that lies ahead. To the Deputy Secretary, the Secretary of the National Assembly, all Table Staff, the service officers, the catering personnel, the security officers - although they still persist in slamming our car boots, as well as our bonnets – and all other personnel of Parliament responsible for its smooth running, we wish to express our sincere thanks and appreciation.

Furthermore, a word of thanks goes to the media, which keeps the public informed about the business of Parliament and its many committees.]

In conclusion, I want to wish everybody a very pleasant festive season. May 2005 be a prosperous year filled with happiness! I trust that all of you will enjoy a well-deserved holiday and that you will return safely next year. I thank you. [Applause.]

Mor. K R J MESHOE: Mme Sebui ke eme fa ke emetse mokgatlo wa ACDP. Gape ke leboga Modimo ka thuso ya gagwe a re neileng yona mo selemong se se se felang. Gape ke leboge maloko otlhe a Palamente ka tirisano mmogo e entle e re e boneng. Le ba thusi ba rona mo di kantorong tsa rona ba dirile ka natla. Ke rata go tsaa tshono e go le leboga ka Pesalome (Psalms). Morago ga moo ke leboge le go rapelela maloko otlhe a Palamente. (Translation of Tswana paragraph follows.)

[Rev K R J MESHOE: Madam Speaker, I am speaking on behalf of the ACDP. I would again like to thank God for his help throughout this year that is coming to an end. I would also like to thank all members of Parliament for the co-operation we have had. Our office assistants also worked very hard. I would like to take this opportunity to use Psalms to thank them. Thereafter I would like to thank and pray for all members of Parliament.]

I am going to read from Psalm 113, titled Praise the Lord:

  Praise, oh servants of the Lord.
  Praise the name of the Lord!
  Blessed be the name of the Lord
  from this time forth and forever.
  From the rising of the sun to its going down,
  the Lord’s name is to be praised.
  The Lord is high above all nations,
  his glory above the heavens.


  Who is like the Lord our God,
  who dwells on high;
  who humbles himself to behold the things that are in the heavens and
  in the earth.
  He raises the poor out of the dust
  and lifts the needy out of the ash heap
  that he may sit him with princes,
  with princes of his people.
  He grants the barren women a home
  like a joyful mother of children.
  Praise the Lord!

I want to pray. I want to pray. I want to pray. Father, I want to thank You for the time that we can come to You to say thank You. By Your grace we had good working relationships in this place. You helped us. As we come to the end of this session, after having said thank you to so many people, I want to say to You: Thank You very much.

And, as we will be going to our respective places and homes, may Your grace abide with us and ensure us safety, protect us throughout this festive season, I pray, and help us to come back for the challenges of the coming year refreshed and healthy. I ask all this in Jesus’ name. Amen!

The SPEAKER: Hon Reverend, next time you should time your prayer so that it fits into your two minutes. [Laughter.]

Mr I S MFUNDISI: Madam Speaker and hon members, a born Mfundisi has come here now. The book of books puts it aptly that there is a time to come and a time to go, a time to meet and a time to part ways, a time to bid welcome and a time to bid goodbye. The time to bid one another goodbye has come.

In looking back to the beginning of the first session of this third Parliament of the Republic of South Africa, one cannot but do so with a feeling of fulfilment for the good work done in the short period. We in the UCDP wish to thank the entire Parliamentary family, the cleaners and the service officers who ensure that we operate in wholesome surroundings.

Though the delivery of documents in Marks Building still has to improve, we have to thank staff because of their helpfulness; the Table staff for their alertness in parliamentary procedure; and sound and television personnel who have since come to accept that the UCDP members deserve to be covered as well. We thank the Secretary to Parliament for keeping parties informed and involved in the process of governance in this institute.

Colleagues in the ANC Whippery have to be applauded for the consultative manner in which they run the affairs of Parliament. The Chief Whip, hon Goniwe, takes the cake in this regard for insisting that the representation in Parliamentary structures should not be the monopoly of some parties or individuals to the exclusion or even complete marginalisation of other parties and their members.

Siyabulela ngalomzekelo wobubhexeshi obubonisayo mhlekazi, akunamathandabuzo okuthi nabo unabo bakufunda kuwe Nyawuza. (Translation of Xhosa paragraph follows.)

[We thank you for the example you have set. Undoubtedly, those who work with you will learn from you, Nyawuza.]

I shall be remiss if I do not thank the presiding officers for the masterly manner in which they execute their difficult task of directing the proceedings of this House. To the three House Chairpersons: We wish you all the strength. To the Speaker and the Deputy Speaker: We pray for you to have strength, to have the wisdom of Solomon and the heart to cope with our frailties. To all colleagues: Adieu! Adieu! Fare thee well! May the good Lord shower his blessings upon you! Till we meet! I thank you. [Applause.]

Mr M T LIKOTSI: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My farewell speech is dedicated to imprisoned Azanian People’s Liberation Army, Apla, fighters. We must always remember fellow freedom fighters who, after 10 years of democracy, are still rotting in our jails, now called correctional services. They fought fearlessly for us and with us to bring about the democracy we are enjoying and celebrating.

Ka Sesotho ho thwe mofata sediba ha se nwe. [The Basotho say that he who does the work, does not reap the fruits thereof.]

Whilst we champion democracy in Africa, let us remember that charity begins at home. We are the lawmakers of our country. At the stroke of a pen - if we have the political will - we can release those noble sons and daughters of Africa to join the rest of us in developing our country and celebrate this Christmas of 10 years of our democracy.

I wish to thank all Parliamentary support staff who on my election to this Parliament, professionally kept consulting with me on relevant logistics about my travel arrangements, and for their best and speedy assistance in filling in the first documents of our members on Parliamentary premises. I further wish to thank the Parliamentary VIP protection unit which protected all of us, including our families, on our first stay in Cape Town in the first term. I thank the Department of Public Works for housing us at Acacia Park. [Laughter.]

I further wish to thank all hon members, old and new, who gave the PAC of Azania full corporation in their noble cause of stabilising democracy in our country. To all of you wonderful hon members and those whose names I have not mentioned I say: Farewell! Farewell! And a big farewell to you all! Whatever you do, remember Africa. I thank you. [Applause.]

The CHIEF WHIP OF THE MAJORITY PARTY: Thank you very much, Madam Speaker. May I start by announcing that I request you to place on record that the ANC will make a formal approach to your Office for consideration to be given to an investigation into the substance of the issues that Mr Gibson raised here.

We have come to the conclusion of the year 2004. Even though we have said it so many times before, for its significance we must say it again in this august House that the year 2004 concludes South Africa’s first decade of freedom. This is a period that has come with a lot of change in South Africa’s political and social reality and experience. The profundity of this experience has impacted on African as well as global reality.

As we stand at the apex of 2004, necessarily and naturally we tend to cast our eyes towards the next year and decade, wondering as we do so what the future shall bring. Of course, as South Africans we have learnt that the future will be what we make of it.

This democratic Parliament of the people of South Africa captures the great and the timely aspirations representative of the views of our country. We should note, though, that valued as this institution is, this has not discouraged others from trying to dent its integrity. This institution and members of Parliament have their integrity negatively impacted upon by the manner in which investigations into the travel scam were conducted. The manner in which those matters were reported by the media, in my view, exacerbated the situation. We regret this and hope that it never recurs in the future.

We don’t want any member of Parliament to be arrested. We don’t want any member, no matter from what party, to be humiliated. We want the dignity of all public representatives to be restored in this House and in the public; that is the starting point.

We should, as we conclude this year, appeal to all South Africans who have the honour of serving our people at this level to be exemplary in putting the national interest above everything else. We are a people bound by a common destiny that even our partisan affiliations cannot undo. This fact must at all times be borne in mind and should inform the manner in which we carry ourselves and conduct the business of this House.

So many times, including yesterday, the issue of resources has come up in this House. As an institution Parliament needs to be better resourced. It is difficult for members to perform work under the current conditions. The situation is worse when it comes to the work that has to be done in constituencies. We have spoken about this in the past, namely the vastness of many of our constituencies, the rural character of others and the challenges attendant thereto.

We have highlighted the problems brought about by the very underdevelopment we are trying to address. And, therefore, as we look towards 2005 and the next decade, we must say that these problem areas that have already been identified should be addressed.

The service that members receive from staff generally is another sore area. It seems there is a creeping institutional inertia which, if not promptly dealt with, could have disastrous consequences.

There are those of our staff who give everything they have to enable this institution to function, amongst whom are the Secretary to Parliament, his Deputy; the capable Table staff, so ably led by our secretary to the NA, Mr Hahndiek; and many others who sacrifice to make sure, behind the scenes - working very long hours - that this House’s business goes on smoothly. [Applause.]

During the course of the year members experienced numerous problems at parliamentary villages. These ranged from accommodation, water cuts, security, etc. We are glad to note that the Parks’ management is doing something to resolve those problems. Many remain and need to be attended to.

We must thank the presiding officers for the manner in which they have conducted the overall affairs of Parliament: the Speaker, hon Mbete; the Deputy Speaker, hon Gwen Mahlangu-Nkabinde; our three House Chairs, Comrades Doidge and Nkosinathi Nhleko, and last, but not least, uMama uSandra Botha.

We must also thank the Leader of Government Business and his Office for their support and guidance, as well as members of the executive, from the President to the Ministers and Deputy Ministers for their co-operation and understanding. We also thank the Chief Whips of all the parties, all of them without exception, for their co-operation and the comradely spirit in which we tend to do things. Yes, there are other minor things that we still need to attend to, but on the whole we have worked very well as a team. Thank you for that, my colleagues. [Applause.]

We thank the Whippery of all the parties as a whole, particularly the Whippery of the Majority Party, for its commitment, selflessness and everything it has done to make this year what it has been.

Lastly, we must thank all the members of Parliament for their commitment to the nonracial and nonsexist cause of our people. Contrary to popular belief that members of Parliament are overpaid fat cats and passengers on the gravy train, we know how hard members work. We are fully aware of the toll of the work you do on your health, families, friends, etc. We must commend you for your resilience and commitment and urge you to soldier on for the sake of your people. [Applause.]

We wish all of you a joyous and safe festive season, and hope to see you in the new year recharged, bright and fresh, ready to make yet another advance in the campaign to fight poverty and create jobs. For that to happen I think we need to consider these powerful messages that we have been sending out throughout: abstain or be faithful, or condomise; don’t fool yourself, speed kills; don’t drink and drive, unless you drink milk. Thank you very much. [Laughter.] [Applause.]

The SPEAKER: Thank you very much, hon members, for those farewell speeches. I also wish to take this opportunity to add to those remarks by saying that we have come to the end of a very hectic year.

We left Parliament earlier this year, went on campaigns preparing for the elections and, without as much as a break, came back for a very hectic session in which we had to process the Budget. And here we are, at the end of the year, having covered quite a large portion of business.

We have, hon members, engaged with the Minister of Finance and we hope that we will be able to be given the resources we need in order to improve on the support that members need in order for them to be maximally productive in favour of the electorate and to fulfil the promises made during the elections. So we are all keeping our fingers crossed, hoping that we will get those resources. But all the issues that members have been raising were indeed raised and were accommodated in that Budget.

Hon members, I believe that despite all the challenges we faced in the early days of this third Parliament and in this year - a very difficult year – this is a very important year that will go down in the history books as not only the 10th year of democracy, but it will also go down as the year when South Africa was favoured with hosting the Pan-African Parliament and also won the bid to host the 2010 Soccer World Cup. So really, it has been a good year, albeit a very hectic and difficult one.

However, I believe that we should take the challenges that came with this year as the issues that prepare us for the road ahead. And, hopefully, in doing that, especially those of us who will remain here between now and when you come back, we will have incorporated that into the preparations for next year so that, indeed, we improve not only the operation of Parliament, but also the understanding of the role of this institution in our society: that is what it is that our people, when they voted us into Parliament, expected us to come and achieve here.

So I believe that indeed, we’ve got to congratulate ourselves that we have survived and that we have attended to all the business that we managed to attend to.

Thank you very much, hon members. And on behalf of the Deputy Speaker and the House Chairpersons, I really wish you a restful festive season, but also hope that you will come back more energised. We will really hit the road in 2005.

That concludes the business of the day and the sittings for this year. [Applause.]

The House adjourned at 12:15. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS



                      FRIDAY, 12 NOVEMBER 2004

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. Bills passed by Houses - to be submitted to President for assent:

 (1)    Bill passed by National Assembly on 12 November 2004:


     (i)     Protection of Constitutional Democracy against Terrorist
          and Related Activities Bill. [B 12F - 2003)](National Assembly
          - sec 75)

TABLINGS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces:

1. The Minister of Housing:

 Report and Financial Statements of the South African Housing Fund for
 the period ended 31 March 2004, including the Reports of the Auditor-
 General on the Financial Statements for 2003-2004, 2000-2003, 1998-2000
 and 1994-1998 [RP 154-2004].