WEDNESDAY, 9 JUNE 2004 __

          PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
                                ____

The Council met at 14:00.

The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000.

                          NOTICE OF MOTION

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! Hon members, please note that your voting cards must be inserted into the screens before you, so that we do not have a difficulty when you speak for the operators to open your microphones. [Interjections.] You don’t have voting cards? You will be issued with voting cards, hon members, so that we do not delay the proceedings.

Mr M A MZIZI: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the House, I shall move on behalf of the IFP:

That the Council -

(1) notes with great shock that senior officials of the public safety system have been found to be ``moonlighting’’ in order to make ends meet on their salaries;

(2) further notes that this came to light after Pretoria policemen were shot in a robbery while moonlighting as security guards last month;

(3) acknowledges that this type of conduct is unacceptable and should not be allowed to continue; and

(4) urges the relevant authorities and officials to take the necessary steps in order to stamp out this practice and ensure that it does not become a common practice.

           CONGRATULATIONS TO BAFANA BAFANA AND ERNIE ELS

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mr N M RAJU: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council -

(1) notes that the South African National Soccer Team, Bafana Bafana, under new coach Stuart Baxter, defeated Cape Verde Islands 2-1 in a pulsating but disappointing match on Saturday, 5 June 2004;

(2) also notes that the South African golfer Ernie Els, the ``Big Easy’’, regained the world No 2 spot, ousting the Fijian Vijay Singh in the process, when he won a prestigious match in the USA during the weekend;

(3) congratulates both Bafana Bafana and Ernie Els on their winning performances by which they brought much joy to the sports-mad and win-hungry South African nation; and

(4) further notes that the South African Rugby Springboks, under new coach Jake White and captain John Smit, have a wonderful opportunity this Saturday to redeem themselves by conquering the Irish team, the Six Nations Champions, thus emulating the performances of their compatriots, Bafana Bafana and the irrepressible Ernie Els.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

         ACCIDENT INVOLVING PUPILS OF NELSPRUIT HIGH SCHOOL

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mnr A WATSON: Mev die Voorsitter, ek doen die volgende voorstel sonder kennisgewing:

Dat die Raad -

(1) met leedwese en skok kennis neem van die uiters hartseer gebeurtenis op Sondag, 6 Junie 2004, waarin sewe leerlinge van die Hoërskool Nelspruit almal tragies omgekom het in ‘n motorongeluk in die Krokodilrivierpoort tussen Malelane en Nelspruit;

(2) sy opregte meegevoel uitspreek teenoor hul ouers, broers en susters, die Hoërskool Nelspruit se bestuursraad en personeel en ook teenoor al die leerlinge van die skool; en

(3) by wyse van hierdie mosie ‘n eenparige boodskap van medelye en vertroosting uitstuur aan al die inwoners van Mpumalanga. (Translation of Afrikaans motion without notice follows.)

[Mr A WATSON: Madam Speaker, I move without notice: That the Council -

(1) notes with grief and shock the terribly sad event on Sunday, 6 June 2004, in which seven pupils of the Nelspruit High School all died tragically in a motor car accident in the Crocodile River Poort between Malelane and Nelspruit;

(2) expresses its deepest sympathy to their parents, brothers and sisters, the management board and staff of the Nelspruit High School as well as with all the pupils of the school; and

(3) by means of this motion, sends a unanimous message of sympathy and comfort to all residents in Mpumalanga.]

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

                   PASSING AWAY OF MEMBER'S MOTHER

                         (Draft Resolution)

The ACTING CHIEF WHIP OF THE COUNCIL: Chairperson, I move without notice:

That the Council -

(1) notes with sadness the passing away of the mother of a member of the National Council of Provinces, Mr Darryl Worth; and

(2) expresses its profound sympathy and condolences to Mr Worth, the family and loved ones on their irretrievable loss.

May God be with them in this time of need.

Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.

                         APPROPRIATION BILL

                           (Policy debate)

Vote No 26 - Agriculture and Vote No 30 - Land Affairs:

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order! May I take this opportunity to welcome the hon Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs, Minister Didiza. You are welcome in this august House, the National Council of Provinces. I am sure this is your maiden speech in this third Parliament.

The MINISTER FOR AGRICULTURE AND LAND AFFAIRS: Thank you very much, Chairperson. I hope, given that this is my maiden speech, the Chairperson will be very lenient when it comes to time, and take into consideration that the two debates have two departments and individual budgets, and therefore twenty minutes might not have been very fair. Nonetheless, I welcome the time given by you, Chair.

Madam Chairperson, hon members of the NCOP, Members of the Executive Councils responsible for Agriculture present here today, directors-general and senior officials from the Departments of Land Affairs and Agriculture, Chief Land Claims Commissioner and the regional land claims commissioners, as well as our provincial directors of land affairs present here, ladies and gentlemen, as we come to our second decade of freedom, we remain conscious of our responsibility as public representatives.

The April general election has once again affirmed the ANC as the people’s party, which is capable of changing their socioeconomic conditions for the better, thereby dealing with the issues of poverty and underdevelopment in our country.

As the representatives of the ANC, I want to make the commitment that indeed we will do whatever it takes to deliver on the people’s mandate received in these elections. We will work diligently to ensure that the contract we have entered into with our people in creating work and fighting poverty and underdevelopment is achieved.

In the past weeks both departments briefed the select committee on how the previous year’s budget was spent. Strategic plans for 2004-05 were also tabled that took into consideration some of the adjustments received from our electorate, as articulated in the state of the nation address by the President in the National Assembly.

Our ten-year review has highlighted the achievements of the first decade of democracy. It is important to capture a few of these without being elaborate. The policies of the democratic Government in the areas of land and agriculture have resulted in a situation where we have changed the land ownership patterns in our country and given dignity to the majority of those who were historically disenfranchised and hope that the possibility for a better life is real.

It is in part through the processes of land reform that we have been able to create a new class of producers that have started to reflect the demographics of our country, thereby moving closer to deracialising our agricultural sector and our country’s economy.

It is also true that as we introduce new participants, we have also dealt with other subtle discriminations, such as gender stereotyping, in our society. Women have never been regarded as farmers, let alone successful ones. Hon members, for us change has meant building something new. We have in the first decade of freedom ensured that even established commercial producers of our country undergo change in order to become more competitive in the domestic and international arena.

In reflecting on some of our successes, it is necessary to acknowledge the role that has been played by provincial governments and municipalities in ensuring that we can resolve some of the immediate challenges that we face, such as poverty. The support given to municipalities on the commonage programme has meant that the local government sphere can assist to alleviate poverty in their immediate communities by giving them access to land which they can utilise to supplement their income or even subsist on it.

The Department of Agriculture’s Integrated Food Security and Nutrition Programme, which has become a social cluster priority, has been and is aimed at ensuring that we can intervene to assist those who are food insecure, either as a result of natural disasters or any other form of risk that has a negative impact on them, including poverty.

It is humbling to note that the initiatives undertaken by various municipalities in the country on matters of food security have been growing. I wish to acknowledge the Nelson Mandela Metro Ploughing Fields Project and the Oliver Tambo district, amongst other things, which have worked with the provincial governments and the private sector in initiating and promoting urban and communal gardens. This was in order to assist poor and vulnerable communities produce food for themselves, while creating possibilities for income generation at local level.

Some of the success stories in this regard are the initiatives taken in partnership with provincial departments of agriculture. We have distributed production support packages to 37 000 households out of our 50 000 target that we set for ourselves. We have started, for example, in the Limpopo province to provide poor people with day-old chicks, point-of-lay pullets and young lactating cows which, in various combinations, form the agricultural starter pack. These, in turn, produce milk, eggs and meat and in some cases even surplus production, which enables people to sell and obtain income.

In the Eastern Cape the Mass Food Production Programme has meant the consolidation of homestead fields into one big unit, for which the Government has provided fencing and contributed to certain infrastructure, such as more irrigation and mechanisation input. The Xoshindlala initiative of KwaZulu-Natal has also created the possibility for many poor people to produce for themselves and thereby deal with issues of food insecurity. As part of our ongoing partnership with civil society and the private sector, we have supported some community groups involved in backyard gardens in Khayelitsha, Guguletu and Nyanga who, through support in the form of seeds, have been able to supplement their income while feeding themselves.

Some of these interventions are an indication of what our programmatic intervention can do to improve the livelihoods of our people. They also create a possibility for creating employment and a meaningful way of attacking poverty. We all know that hunger is one manifestation of poverty. We have taken stock of our achievements in the past decade, and this is well documented in our 10-year review publication. It is, however, important to note that the same 10-year review highlighted some challenges that we still face in our land and agrarian reform. These arise out of our own assessment of the impact of our policies and programmes. For instance, for a number of years the land reform budget has been on the increase, in particular the restitution programme. This has created possibilities for us to settle as many as 48 000 claims in the country, with a number of hectares of land being delivered to communities.

Of note is the nature of the claims that we have settled, particularly in the rural areas. Some of these comprise agricultural land, where you have agricultural enterprises that are viable. In certain areas, such as in KwaZulu-Natal, there are conservation areas as well as forestry and mining areas. We are conscious of the challenge that this settlement posed to sustainable development. In response to this the commission has tried to ensure that the necessary support after settlement is given to these communities. As we move forward with this programme we remain aware of these ongoing challenges, and we all agree that if we have to succeed co- ordination is critical.

The other programmes of land reform, such as redistribution and tenure, have also moved abreast. As you may all be aware, the reduction of the project cycle has been with us for some time now. In the last term of office, if I may say so in this House, there was concern about the length of time it took to settle claims or even land redistribution programmes. We have sought to reduce this. Government has continued to contribute to land reform, not only through financial resources received out of our budget, but also with assets from the land that is held by the state. To date, 772 626 hectares have been delivered in terms of the State Land Disposal Programme. These achievements reflect the commitment that Government has made through our budget. However, this budget increase on land delivery has not been matched adequately by the agricultural budget, posing a threat to the sustainability of agricultural programmes, as highlighted in the case of land restitution and LRAD specifically. I’m sure hon members here, particularly those who sit in the provincial legislatures, will know that this is one of the concerns that the Departments of agriculture in the provinces have raised.

At the same time the weakness of co-ordination has been noted among the various spheres of government and within departments. As representatives of provinces in this House, one of the areas we may need to look into is the extent to which the public land held by municipalities and provinces enables us to change the settlement patterns of our country. Obviously, provinces and municipalities cannot be expected to address this challenge of the integration of cities alone. This will need an integrated approach among the various spheres of government. Also, with little public land assets available, such as land within the municipalities, I think it is possible to ensure that the policy and legislative choices that we make at provincial level and in municipalities contribute to the integration of cities in a meaningful way, so that, indeed, the cost of transport for our rural poor and our urban poor does not become enormous because they stay far away from their places of work.

While the challenge of integration is a matter we must continually engage, you will recall that it was in the year 2000 that we started in a meaningful way to co-ordinate on a project basis, particularly in the area of restitution. Today we can talk with pride when we look at Payneville in Springs, Gauteng; the Port Elizabeth Land and Community Restoration Association; and District Six here in the Western Cape in terms of which the housing development programmes are just some examples that show the benefits of working together. It is also interesting to note that provincial departments of agriculture, with the limited resources that they have, have been able to identify young people in the communities where restitution has been undertaken and given them bursaries to study, so that they can come back and contribute to the agricultural enterprises that have been delivered through restitution in particular.

Land and agrarian reform, as we all know, is a journey. Many strategic decisions and technical moves have to be made at every point in order to succeed. Through the presidential working group an agricultural sector plan was developed. This sector plan outlines specific areas that all partners have committed themselves to if we are to have a united, prosperous agricultural sector in our country. This, in my view, is already a people’s contract. This vision has given a framework for collaboration between Government on the one hand, and the agricultural unions, on the other. The strategic plan for the Department of Agriculture, which has been tabled in this House in accordance with set Rules, serves as the framework for the consideration of Budget Vote 26 which we are debating today. This plan is derived from a deep understanding of the concerns and aspirations of the diverse client base of the Department of Agriculture. It responds, also, to the call of action to a people’s contract made by the ANC in its election manifesto.

In the past 10 years of democracy we’ve put in place a vision of unity and prosperity for this sector that is embraced by the key stakeholders. It creates a policy environment that seeks to boldly enhance participation and equity in the agricultural sector, enhance competitiveness and profitability along the total agricultural chain, and ensure the sustainable management and use of the scarce and precious natural agricultural resources, so that, indeed, we can start to see successful black farmers and black agricultural processors starting to reflect the demographics of our country. The strategic plan for Land Affairs, on the other hand, gives us a clearer picture of what the priorities are in the coming year. This plan also accommodates the timeframes for the completion of restitution. It also takes into consideration the need for focusing on the resolution of the labour tenants’ claim, which sadly affects the majority of our rural, poor communities on commercial farms. To this end the department has committed itself to settle about 10 000 labour-tenants’ claims this year in the areas of KwaZulu-Natal and Mpumalanga. The challenge facing us in the coming 10 years is to ensure that there is support to land reform beneficiaries in a manner that enables communities and individuals to use their assets effectively.

Before the end of the previous term this House passed the Communal Land Rights Bill. An implementation plan is being developed working together with the Department of Provincial and Local Government. The first phase will include the land inquiry process supported by surveying these pieces of land, setting up administrative structures and putting in place a training programme for such structures and communities. This will help communities to understand how the legislation will be implemented and what the roles of the respective stakeholders are.

Between June 2003 and March 2004 we have settled 1 655 black farmers through LRAD. Our experience of implementing LRAD and the restitution programme over the past 10 years makes it clear that it is not sufficient to provide prospective farmers with access to land without also providing government support for production inputs and technical advisory services.

It is on this basis that if you see this year’s budget of agriculture giving R210 million towards the comprehensive agricultural support programme, it includes the provision for conditional grants as a supplement to budgets of provincial departments of agriculture to improve and increase farmer support services. I wish to inform hon members that as Ministers and members of the executive council of agriculture we met last year and agreed on priorities that we need to fund through this allocation. We have also agreed that we are going to have task teams that clearly look at where the money is going to land.

This allocation this financial year will be made available to individuals and or groups for purposes of erecting fences, iidiphu [dipping baths], infrastructure support for the handling and marketing of livestock at the same time through the link programme for food security within the context of the integrated food and nutrition security programme. We shall also work with the provinces and other national departments such as Social Development to ensure the availability of agricultural starter packs for poor people.

We already have had success stories in Limpopo where what the benefits of these starter packs can bring to the poor people are best expressed in the words of one woman who had received 18 point-of-lay chickens. She was speaking to MEC Motsoaledi, when she said: ``Mphathiswa wePhondo sihluthi ngamaqanda. Siyawatya yaye siyawathengisa amanye. Iinkukhu zakho nazo sezizele amantshontsho amaninzi. Ndikulindile ukuba uze kuthatha eyakho.’’ [Kwaqhwatywa.] [Hon minister of the province, we have a full complement of eggs. We eat and also sell some of them. Your chickens have hatched and there are a lot of chicks now. You should come and collect yours. [Applause.]]

As part of Government-wide initiatives for creating work opportunities through the Expanded Public Works Programme, we shall continue to support our land care projects. This year we have committed R72 million which is targeted at closing dongas, clearing bush and introducing new water- harvesting systems technologies to support poor black farmers. Communities who will be given priority this year are communities in Sterkspruit, Nongoma, the former Transkei and Ciskei and within the rural development nodes. We will endeavour to use labour intensive methods even on this infrastructure that will be developed through the comprehensive agricultural support allocation.

The President in his state of the nation address announced that the department would have an Agri-BEE framework out for public comment in July. I am pleased to confirm that the work is on track to meet this deadline. In support of the President’s call for closer partnership between the public and private sectors to develop action plans to help realise the vision of a united and prosperous agricultural sector, South Africa’s cotton growers joined by their input suppliers, output processors and the national Department of Agriculture, developed a strategic plan for South African cotton growers. We have already moved from strategy to implementation of the cotton strategy. Black farmers, some of whom were assisted through LRAD, are now being assisted to grow cotton on 9 000 ha of land in four provinces.

We further welcome the target set by the established sugar industry to ensure the redistribution of at least 78 000 ha of sugar-producing land to black farmers by 2015 as part of their contribution to the 30% national target of redistribution of agricultural land. In KwaZulu-Natal we have already committed, through the land reform budget, R6 million towards the first phase of this programme. I am very pleased that the progress that has been made by other commodity sectors in ensuring that they develop strategies to contribute towards equity in the agricultural sector in these specific industries such as the ostrich industry, the stock owners and the wheat industry, has actually gone ahead. It is necessary for us to appreciate that there are still some of the industries that are lagging behind and we hope that they will learn a lesson from others. But through the Agri-BEE none of the agricultural industries will run away from transformation; ensuring that indeed we can build a united prosperous agricultural sector in the agriculture industry.

I wish to say in this coming year there are specific things concerning which we make the commitment to you as members that we will do. We shall work vigorously to continue the implementation of land reform and ensuring that we can conclude our restitution programme by 2005. We want to ensure that our land reform programme is in alignment with the roll out of CASP and in partnership with the agricultural sector. The impact of our land reform programme must translate into equity and economic growth in the agricultural sector.

A comprehensive plan for the completion of the remainder of restitution claims would be presented to the forum of the Minmec by the first week of July this year. Within two months we shall take to Cabinet and make public our agricultural biotechnology policy that is also intended to add to the scope of opportunity that exists for entrepreneurship and improving the competitiveness of the agricultural sector.

Through the ARC we shall develop a pilot technology incubator system for cut flowers by 31 January 2005, which will be used to develop resource-poor farmers in rural communities. We shall further train 39 scientists by 31 December 2004 in research for development methods for resource-poor farmers. As indicated in the past the financing of agricultural research is as much our concern as it is yours. In the next month our first intake of interns will be completing their time with the Department of Agriculture. It is interesting to note that out of the 94 interns we took in last year, 22 have already found permanent jobs. [Applause.] This year we are going to continue with an intake of 152 interns by August. Our experience points to a need to continue this programme of internship and also to encourage all our partners in the private and the nongovernmental sectors to take up the challenge of exposing our youth to their work environment. Through the special bursary scheme for surveying, geomatics and cartography, 57 young students from the historically disadvantaged communities have been awarded bursaries. During this current year 75 students have been awarded bursaries at specific universities.

The Department of Agriculture is responsible for the delivery of a number of critical regulatory and control services aimed at ensuring that the country is disease-free with respect to both animal and plant diseases, and that we can certify and give the appropriate assurance to facilitate the exports of our agricultural produce. This year we shall be presenting our food safety and traceability policy and implementing improved animal disease control measures. I am therefore pleased to announce that after extensive discussions and negotiations with the SA Police Service and the Airports Company of South Africa we are now ready to launch a new inspection service at our ports of entry. We will start at the Johannesburg International Airport by August this year and roll out to the other 76 land, sea and airport entries. I hope hon members here are not going to wish to cross to their neighbours in Swaziland or Lesotho with live animals or even meat without getting an export permit, because whether you’re an MP or not, you shall be arrested. [Laughter.]

The President in his state of the nation address announced that we will establish the agricultural credit scheme in the Department of Agriculture to provide capital for this sector, and that R1 billion is immediately available to start the agricultural credit scheme. In August this year I will make a further announcement on the scheme that we hope will stimulate greater access and participation in the broadening of rural financial markets.

Our work programme for this year does indicate the need for closer alignment between these two departments whose budgets we are debating today. If our land and agrarian reform is to succeed we need to ensure that joint planning occurs at an early stage. Our approach to work as a Public Service will need take into consideration the commitment that our President and Government have made to the people of our country. Indeed Batho Pele must be a living motto for all us. I therefore believe that if we work together in a people’s contract with communities we can indeed make a better life for our people a reality. I thank you. [Applause.]

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, as you are well aware, we have combined the two Budget Votes of two departments here, namely that of Agriculture and Water Affairs and we only have one speakers’ list. I will therefore ask the secretary to read the second order of the day to allow the next department to make a presentation.

                         APPROPRIATION BILL

                           (Policy Debate)

Vote No 34 - Water Affairs and Forestry

The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Minister Sonjica you are welcomed also and you are welcome to this House, as I have indicated to the Minister for Agriculture. This is your maiden speech in this House and we welcome you for that.

The MINISTER OF WATER AFFAIRS AND FORESTRY: Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces, let me first do the right thing and congratulate you on your new appointment as a chairperson of this very important House, the National Council of Provinces. Malibongwe igama lamakhosikazi. [Praise be to the name of the women.] By now our approach in the third democratic Parliament should be clear. It is down to work. So today we must focus on those priorities, which the President identified in his state of the nation address: safe water for a million people for this current year; hygienic and acceptable sanitation for three thousand households, including the eradication of the bucket-system; and the general focus on helping to build the second economy to sustain and improve the quality of life of all our people.

The Constitution places great emphasis on co-operative governance, so it is appropriate that we meet today to discuss the Budget Votes of Agriculture and Land Affairs, as well as Water Affairs and Forestry. There is a close interdependence between these portfolios as already alluded to by the Minister which all contribute to a better life for all South Africans. And here in the NCOP, the guardian of the provinces, I will focus my review on those functions that are relevant to the provinces. One area where we have a shared responsibility is forestry, particularly with regard to the administration of indigenous forests; and secondly there is the issue of the local government. Municipalities are responsible for water supply and sanitation services as well as for waste disposal sites and other activities that cause water pollution and must be properly managed. Also of common interest are education and health where we must ensure that schools and clinics have proper water supplies and sanitation. Finally, water availability limits economic and social development in many parts of our country just as environmental conditions determine whether forestry is viable. We must ensure that provincial growth and development strategies are informed and supported by the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry. During this year we will continue to ensure that the department’s activities are closely co- ordinated with provincial growth and development strategies. That, finally, did not mean that I was concluding, it was just that part of my speech that I was concluding.

With regard to the issue of forestry, the department has made good progress in transferring government’s commercial plantations to private management, while retaining the ownership of the land for the people. Of the 140 000 hectares which we managed in 1994, over 100 000 ha have been transferred to more appropriate management agencies with a social plan that we have put in place for the affected workers in conjunction with the Department of Labour.

In the year 2004-05 we will see major advances in the restructuring of the remaining plantations into the hands of the communities and small businesses with the focus on black economic empowerment and community participation. This is in line with the President’s determination to focus our attention on what he called the second economy, the economy in which many poor South Africans find themselves, particularly in the rural areas. Although only small percentage of South Africa’s land area is suitable for commercial forestry, there is still some potential for further development. So I am pleased that forestry has been recognised as a priority in the provincial growth and development strategy of the Limpopo Province, for example.

In the Eastern Cape some progress has been made to expand small-scale timber growing but the process, according to my own observation, is moving a bit slowly. As this is a very urgent matter for me I have instructed the department to put a coherent plan in place within the next three months to address the obstacles that are hindering our objective of expanding forestry in this area by at least 60 000 ha. The transfer of the remaining smaller plantations has been delayed in some areas by land-ownership considerations. A successful land restitution claim in northern KwaZulu- Natal has now identified the parties with which the Government must work to determine the future of the 26 000 ha forests of Mbazwane and Manzengwenya, as well as the Mbazwane saw mill. Since we cannot proceed without the agreement of these parties, I cannot set a timeframe for the finalisation of this restructuring. But again I will have a plan for the process to take this forward within three months. I have earned myself a name - I am being called the Minister of timeframes and I only hope that we will really be sticking to the timeframes.

A key objective has been to ensure that local communities benefit from forestry activities. Following the restructuring of plantation forests in the Eastern Cape and KwaZulu-Natal the management consortia have been paying lease rentals for the use of land. The R40 million currently held in trust will be paid to the communities concerned as soon as they establish structures that get the benefits to the right people. With indigenous forests our policy is to delegate or assign management responsibility to appropriate agencies and we are making good progress with the transfer of forests to the South African National Parks and other agencies. The delegation to said parks of the management of 97 000 ha of the Knysna Forest, the jewel of South Africa’s indigenous forests, is practically finalised and will be given as soon as outstanding labour issues are resolved.

In the Western Cape the department is negotiating with Western Cape Nature Conservation to take responsibility for 761 900 ha of mountain areas west of the Touws River which are managed under forest legislation for other conservation purposes. In the Eastern Cape we are negotiating to assign 413 000 ha of natural forest to the province. And in Mpumalanga we are working with the Department of Environmental Affairs and Tourism, the provincial Department of Agriculture Conservation and Environment and the Mpumalanga Parks Board to assign 15 600 ha of natural forests and commercial plantations to the proposed Blyde Canyon National Park. Evaluation of the socioeconomic impact and consultation with stakeholders has already begun.

Given forestry’s importance for rural development, I was concerned to learn that during the past year the forestry industry, with the department included, suffered serious fire damage with 30 176 ha of plantation area destroyed and 4,5 million tons of wood lost. The financial loss in the plantation was R695,7 million and the cost to the economy through loss of production of pulp and related wood product industry was around R3 billion. The costs for just fire- fighting and replanting are estimated at R227 million. The department is working with forestry in South Africa to find an administratively simple way to waive water-use charges for those areas affected by the fires. More generally, I should add, we are also working with the industry to ensure that water-use charges are set in a transparent way and in terms of the legislated principles. The forest industry makes a vital contribution to rural development and has worked very positively to ensure that it operates in a sustainable manner and our department is committed to helping it to continue and indeed, to expand.

Last year’s drought highlighted the importance of managing our water wisely. And I hope that we are taking note of this particular issue because in 50 to 60 years’ time this country will be a semidesert. Farmers were practically and badly affected and restrictions on irrigation are still in effect in some areas of the country, notably the Komati River basin in Mpumalanga.

In line with Government’s approach to the second economy water restrictions were not applied uniformly, because newly established farmers are less able to cope when the water supply is reduced by drought. Commercial farmers, on the other hand, on the Komati, and everywhere else, but I am referring to the Komati and lower Komati, had their water allocation restricted by 65%. But for emerging farmers we were more lenient. The restriction was only 40%. I am appreciative of the disciplined way in which organised commercial agriculture respond to the challenges of drought and their co-operation with the department is most appreciated.

The drought emphasises the need to continue to invest in water security. So, as the President announced in January 2003, construction of phase one of the Olifants River Development Project has begun to meet the immediate needs of the Limpopo Province’s rapidly expanding platinum mines, as well as ensuring supplies for municipal and agricultural users.

Just this morning Cabinet agreed that phase two of the project should be a dam on the Steelpoort River. The cost of building the dam and of transmission pipelines are estimated at over R3 000 million. It will be financed mainly through the contributions from economic water users, although water for social needs as well as the planning and initial design of the dam will be funded by Government.

Aside from boosting the local economy, the project will also help my department’s in-house design and construction team to train the next generation of water resource engineers. We are also busy recruiting, as the Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs has also indicated. An approach to achieve economic empowerment and poverty alleviation through water resource development has been taken in the Western Cape, where the R550 million contract to build the Berg River Dam was awarded last week. The contractors include over 30% black ownership, and 80% of the workforce will come from the local community. Again, the water users will fund the project through loans raised by the Trans-Caledon tunnel authority. Its construction, therefore, does not appear on the department’s budget, although the planning and oversight activities are funded from the Water Resource Management Programme.

Following concerns about water quality in Mafikeng in North West Province, I made an enquiry and I was assured that the service provider complies with the standards as required by Government. This further assures us that there is no reason for us to panic.

We have to give financial assistance to resource-poor farmers. This demonstrates the extent to which our water resource management activities are designed to support the development of the second economy. Elsewhere we continue to create opportunities for the establishment of so-called resource-poor farmers on irrigation schemes, giving them access to water. In order to focus our efforts on the needs of newly established black farmers we will continue to restructure the remaining 21 Government water schemes, so that the commercial farmers concerned can take responsibility for their funding and operation.

Operation and maintenance functions have already been transferred to the Orange Ridge, Vaalharts, Boegoeberg, Kakamas and the Lower Olifants water user associations. Although in Boegoeberg, Kakamas and Lower Olifants, staff members are still seconded, pending the outcome of negotiations with the unions and the finalisation of contracts to regulate the ongoing maintenance of state-owned infrastructure.

During 2004-05 we will initiate negotiations to transfer operation and maintenance of the Sand, Wit and Orange Rivers and Van der Kloof canals to government water schemes.

The department also contributes to poverty alleviation through the Working for Water Programme - a flagship of the Expanded Public Works Programme. In 2004-05 we will clear 109 500 ha, and we will do follow-up maintenance on 615 200 hectares, contributing to the productive use of scarce natural resources and protecting our diversity. More than 10 000 person years of employment will be created and accredited training will be given to all project workers to empower them with useful workplace skills.

As already indicated, the President has set out this year’s goals for water services. These goals must be achieved. If we are to reach our goal of eradicating the water supply backlog by 2008, and the sanitation backlog by 2010, we will have to move very fast. Members of the NCOP will know that the way we tackle water supply and sanitation delivery is changing. In keeping with our commitment to bring development closer to our people, funds for water and sanitation have been consolidated in the municipal infrastructure grant. From July municipalities will receive the money directly on their budgets from the Department of Provincial and Local Government. Some funds remain in my department’s budget to enable us to complete projects which we have already started, particularly those that cross municipal boundaries, such as the Hockessin waterworks, which supply half a million people in Limpopo and Mpumalanga. In future, however, the job of provincial and national departments will be to help municipalities to plan in order to spend the money effectively on projects that meet the needs of our people to achieve our water supply and sanitation goals.

We will be working closely with the national Minister and with provincial Ministers for local government to monitor and support the municipalities to ensure that they use the funding provided for this purpose effectively. The department’s strong links with civil society will be strengthened to give us more eyes and ears on the ground to help in this regard. There should be more than enough money for us to reach the targets as set out for 2004 and

1. This year Government will be giving R4,6 billion to local government to invest in infrastructure to provide basic services. At least R2,35 billion, 52% of this, should be used to address the water supply and sanitation backlogs. This is in addition to the funds provided by the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry to our committed projects, as well as housing grants in terms of which at least 180 000 new houses with basic services will be built during the course of the year. A particular challenge for the department as sector leader will be to promote the delivery of safe, affordable and sustainable sanitation services. The health impact of inadequate sanitation, be it from the bucket system, overflowing sewage, badly maintained water-borne systems, or simply the absence of any sanitation system, is taking a heavy toll on the productivity, health and wellbeing of our people. I will be giving more details on how we propose to address the particular challenges of providing sanitation in our urban townships and informal settlements when I present my budget to the National Assembly next week.

What I must mention here is the challenge of ensuring that the disgraceful situation, which sees many of our schools without water and sanitation, is dealt with as a matter of urgency. In terms of our strategic framework, approved by Cabinet last year, the first responsibility for addressing this challenge lies with provincial departments of education and health, working with the Department of Public Works. Some funds are already available to them for this particular purpose. But if we are to succeed, we will have to treat this as an emergency or an urgent project.

I propose to meet with my national and provincial colleagues to work out joint strategies to reach the targets set by the President. I also intend to raise the matter at the President’s co-ordinating council meeting on 21 June, because I indeed think that this is a very urgent matter. I will propose programmes to be implemented under the leadership of our department, as well as that of the Department of Provincial and Local Government and the other two mentioned, Health and Education, where we will look at the management skills that we have, so that we can be able to deliver on this very important matter.

While talking on sanitation, I must mention that one of the biggest challenges in protecting our scarce water resources is the need for local government to manage and upgrade their municipal waste-water treatment works. If they do not, poorly treated wastewater will be dumped into our rivers and the quality of our rivers will deteriorate, with further negative impact on other water users downstream. I am often asked why I do not prosecute municipalities that contravene pollution control regulations. My reply is simply that this would run contrary to the spirit of co- operative governance. Although where there is gross negligence, or wilful disregard of the law, I will not hesitate to act. I am just worried that some of the people that I might arrest may be my colleagues! [Laughter.]

We still need a developmental approach, and we will support municipalities and help them to build the capacity to do their jobs. Where this does not have the desired effect, a strategy will be developed to ensure that local government meets its statutory obligation to manage activities that impact on water quality. Further announcements will be made in this regard during the current financial year.

In conclusion, I wish to inform the House that with regard to transformation we are on course as a department. All the necessary tools are in place. We are aware that transformation is a process, and our own transformation programme as a department is a contribution to the bigger agenda of creating a caring society. I thank you. [Applause.]

Rev P MOATSHE: Chairperson, Minister of Agriculture and Land Affairs, Minister of Water Affairs And Forestry, departmental directors-general, MECs present, special delegates, colleagues and hon members, the three Votes before this House are extremely important. Therefore we approach this debate through the eye of the people’s contract we have entered into with the people of South Africa.

In the new political dispensation after 1994, South Africa was divided into 9 provinces, each with it’s own department of agriculture. The Department of Agriculture is still the central body overseeing national interests. As mentioned earlier, the land question in South Africa is strongly linked to agricultural development in the provinces. Qualitatively, settlements are characterised by linking restitution and the restoration with development.

In the rural areas a strong emphasis is placed on agricultural development. Major qualitative and quantitative strides have been made in advancing restitution delivery. By March 2000, 3 916 claims were settled. By the end of September 2000, 6 525 claims were settled in favour of the claimants. The total number of claim forms resolved is 6 740. A breakdown of finalised claims for 2000 per province is available. The role of agriculture in reducing poverty and increasing food security depends, to a large extent, on the policy and institutional framework within the subsectors of agriculture.

In the commercial subsector various past and current policies have influenced the total structure of agriculture; and the intensity of its production, input and output industries, capital subsidies, guaranteed prices and import protection contributed to larger farms and therefore a decline in the number of farm families. The policies of cheap credit and tax write-offs, favoured more capital equipment in agriculture, leading to huge losses in agricultural jobs during the 1970s and the 1980s. Agriculture, particularly food security, remains the critical component for our rural economy and therefore recovery support measures are required to ensure sustainability. To this end, comprehensive agricultural support programmes have been launched to enhance the provision of support tentatively to LRAD for the financial year. About R 200 million will go to on-farm and off-farm infrastructure.

Regarding the issue of budgetary measures, the total expenditure trends increased steadily between 2000-2001 and the 2003-2004 financial years, rising from R 723, 3 billion. The total expenditure is expected to grow over the next three years, rising to R 1, 6 billion in 2006-2007, an annual average increase over the 7 year period of 14,5 %. Expenditure between the 2001-2002 and 2003-2004 financial years has been increased by the allocation of R255 million for flood relief over the three years following the floods of 1999-2000. In addition, a once-off allocation of R150 million was made in 2003-2004 for agricultural disaster management, boosting the department budget for this year in the farmer support and development programme.

In three months the modalities of the agricultural credit scheme will be announced and be capitalised with R1 billion which has been collected through the Agricultural Management Act. The Agri-BEE framework will be published for public comment by July 2004. This process is going through consultation with agricultural industries and it is in the capable hands of the department and the Minister.

Agriculture has great potential to assist in the fight to alleviate poverty in the rural areas. Given the apartheid legacy, the expansion of agricultural opportunities to poor rural communities is closely linked to access to land and water. Redressing the past imbalances in land ownership must be balanced against the need to sustain the predominantly commercial farming sector, so that the agricultural sector can continue to supply food to the consumer at reasonable prices and remain internationally competitive.

The vision of the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry in attaining socioeconomic rights for the citizens of South Africa states the following:

We have a vision of a democratic, people-centred nation working towards human rights, social justice, equality and prosperity for all. We have a vision of a society in which all our people enjoy the benefits of clean water and hygienic sanitation services. We have a vision of water being used carefully and productively for economic activities which promote the growth, development and prosperity of the nation. We have a vision of a land in which our natural forests and plantations are managed in the best interests of all. We have a vision of a people who understand and protect our national resources so as to make them ecologically stable and safeguard them for current and future generations. We have a vision of a department that serves the public loyally, meets its responsibilities with energy and compassion and acts as a link in the chain of integrated and environmentally sustainable development. We have vision of development and co-operation throughout our region; of playing our part in the African Renaissance.

We will ensure that in the next five years all households will have easy access to clean running water. By December this year, through our programmes, we will provide clean and potable water to the ten millionth South African since 1994. During the current year, more than 300 000 households will be provided with basic sanitation.

There is another aspect that the select committee requested me to highlight in this debate, namely the issue of aquaculture. Aquaculture may be defined simply as farming with fish and other aquatic organisms. ``Fish’’ is used here generically to include all farmed aquatic organisms. Land-based systems are commonly integrated with agriculture by stocking fish in rice fields and ponds. Water-based systems involve stocking fish directly in enclosures or attaching them to substrates in water bodies such as rivers, lakes, reservoirs or bays. Water-based systems may provide an entry point for landless people and poor fishermen to farm with fish. Rural aquaculture implies low-cost production with extensive and semi-extensive technologies most appropriate for the limited resource base of small -scale households. It is based on natural food for fish such as plankton, which is occasionally fertilised and/or supplemented by other feed. Fertiliser and feed may be derived from on-farm products, at least in the initial stage of intensification.

What are the direct benefits of aquaculture? It provides food of high nutritional value, especially for vulnerable groups such as pregnant and lactating women, infants and preschool children. It provides ``own enterprising’’ employment including for women and children and provides an income through the sale of relatively high value produce.

The indirect benefits include the increased availability of fish in local rural and urban markets which may bring prices down. Furthermore, it provides employment on larger farms, in seed supplies networks, market chains and manufacture/repair functions. The benefits from common pool resources, particularly to the landless, through cage culture are the creation of a culture of molluscs and seaweeds and enhanced fisheries in communal water bodies. Furthermore, there will be increased farm sustainability through the construction of ponds, which also serve as small- scale on-farm reservoirs; and rice/fish culture as a component of integrated pest management.

South African aquaculture production, though limited in its contribution to Africa’s and global production, has shown a significant increase over the past decade. The total production and value has increased from 3 000 tons in 1997 to 4 100 tons in 1998, to 5 800 tons in 1999 to 4 030 tons in 2

1. The decline in quantity and value from 1999 to 2 000 has to do with the exclusion of the Namibian oyster and mussel production from the South African statistics as from the year 2000. The total South African production has increased by 31% in weight, and 35% in value from 1998 to
2. [Time expired.]

Mr M MAMASE (Eastern Cape): Madam Chairperson, may I say I hope that protocol is observed in order that I do not lose any time. Having considered the themes under which the Budget Vote for the Department of Agriculture is debated, let me begin by saying that the Integrated Framework for Economic Development has provided the Eastern Cape with an opportunity to provide farmers with the necessary agricultural infrastructure for growth and development.

Our province is divided into six agri-ecological zones with different potentials. The maize triangle in the Transkei is determined by rainfall patterns, biodiversity and soil fertility. In this area we introduced a programme called massive food production. This agri-ecological zone produces maize and beans.

Last year we invested an amount of R50 million in the production of maize and beans. A conditional grant to assist farmers with R2 300 per hectare was meant for the purchase of fertiliser, seed and lime. Farmers planted 17 000 hectares of maize, and on these hectares 44 000 tons have been produced at the value of R105 million at market price.

Having realised this tonnage, we took cognisance that there is a dire need for storage facilities. We were also confronted by the fact that this maize could not be harvested by hand. The growth of this maize and beans was not only excellent, but was unexpected, as this kind of production was never realised by farmers before. The investment in this programme, together with mechanisation, is R150 million in this current year.

Because of the level of production a mechanisation scheme has been introduced which is meant for the entrepreneurial development of farmers in this particular region. A four-row combine harvester has been bought for a co-operative in this area. The entrepreneurial development for a business organisation is constituted for men and women trained in farming for the development and agricultural production in the Lusikisiki-Port St Johns area.

The black economic empowerment group is responsible for farming, business development and employment creation in order to reverse poverty. They are also responsible for buying mechanisation equipment. This agri-ecological zone stretches from Maluti, Ramotlakwana, eNgcobo, Idutywa, Gatyana and Bizana and farmers in these areas are at work. To us as government of the Eastern Cape, on the first year of the roll-out of this massive food production, it is clear that by 2009 poverty in this area will be something of the past.

With regard to the Integrated Food Security Programme, we realise that for a better meaning and a better sense to poor communities, this programme must be called ``Siyazondla’’. In this current year the provincial government has invested R20 million in the Siyazondla programme. This programme commenced last year, and it assisted each and every family in the deep rural areas of Transkei and elsewhere. It is underpinned by a women’s organisation referred to as Wad, Women in Agricultural Development. In some quarters it is referred to as homestead production.

We are currently developing six nurseries to supply seedlings in the needy areas, and we have been joined by Standard Bank in developing an animal multipurpose centre where an animal clinic, a shearing shed, a storage facility and the offices of the animal health technician and scientist have been developed. A typical example of this facility is now found in Ngqamakhwe.

On the basis of the integrated livestock and crop development strategy, we are producing bonsmara and nguni bulls from our Bathurst research station, and with the assistance of the University of Fort Hare they have produced heifers. Tomorrow, hon members, could you please join me in the distribution of these bulls and heifers to the agri-ecological zone where a huge carrying capacity has been found? [Applause.] The cost of this production was R9 million and, in this current year we have allocated R8 million for this programme to continue. Concerning the ram and wool production scheme, in partnership with the National Wool Growers Association the provincial government is investing R4,5 million in the NWGA to produce the best dohne merinos, rams and ewes. This is a five-year programme, and it has been running for three years now, with an investment of R4,5 million every year. Four thousand rams and 3000 ewes have been distributed to the villages of Transkei and Ciskei. The intention of this programme is to change the quality of wool, and it is meant for rural areas in this province. There is a significant improvement in the areas such as Idutywa, Hlomendlini, Uluzi and Maluti and, of course, Sterkspruit and Allanwaters are champions in wool and meat production.

This wool production movement is second to nothing to wool farmers in the province. We have even changed the Angora goat wool to fine wool. If there are possible investors in this House, you must come to the Eastern Cape province and invest in fine wool production not later than December 2005.

With the financial assistance of the Volkswagen Foundation, the government of the Eastern Cape bought cashmere goats in Australia. With researchers from Wolwehoek we were able to turn goat wool into cashmere. With this partnership, the centre for scientific industrial research and organised farmer community in Maluti, we are now running a cashmere production centre, with a market in Italy. We invested R3 million for further research and development of cashmere production centres in the province. Communities are now rallied around this cashmere production, because the Eastern Cape owns 50% of goats in South Africa.

With regard to pineapple production, may I, with your permission hon Chair, invite this House to a pineapple expansion programme tomorrow in the area of Peddie at half-past-nine and two o’clock in the afternoon for the distribution of bowls in the Putu area in Peddie.

If one looks at the Provincial Growth and Development Plan and the Presidential state of the nation address, as well as the sector strategy, it must be argued that poverty and unemployment are the key ingredients in our policies, and the government of the hon Nosimo Balindlela is investing money in poultry farming and dairy production. We have been joined by four companies, with an investment of R40 million, and the provincial government is only investing R10 million. It will be converted into a percentage for shareholding and land provision. This means that the village would have a majority share in this farming opportunity in Port St Johns.

In the development of roses in Longmore the government has invested R2, 6 million in infrastructure. This entails irrigation, a nursery, fencing and the further extension of this development. It is with pleasure that this House notes that our province has been given R38 million by the Minister of Agriculture for a comprehensive agricultural support programme for the development of stock dams, irrigation, windmills, boreholes and fencing. Thank you very much for your time. [Applause.]

Mr D A WORTH: Madam Chair, hon Ministers present here this afternoon, first of all, thank you for your kind words; they are much appreciated. I would also like to congratulate the Minister of Water Affairs and Forestry on her maiden speech in this House this afternoon. It is towards the water affairs section of the department that I now direct my speech.

Whilst it appears that a country such as South Africa with its large dams and lakes will never have a serious shortage of water, the experts warn that if we do not use water sparingly the time will come that South Africa, like other places in Africa, will experience a critical shortage. South Africans will have to wake up to the fact that the country does not have an unlimited supply of water. A water-saving culture must be encouraged and we should not wait for a crisis before implementing savings. Inadequate plumbing and pipelines such as in Soweto and elsewhere have led to wastage of scarce water.

Prepaid water meters have been designed to provide the basic amount free of charge. This is to ensure that even the poorest of the poor are guaranteed clean water. Contamination of the country’s water resources caused by large factories and industries as well as the country’s inhabitants is the order of the day, and the survival struggle is in progress in the many scattered settlements, in rural areas, where cholera is one of the most common sicknesses as a result of drinking contaminated water. Attempts are, however, being made to change the lives of millions of people who have to carry water in containers for household purposes over long distances or even in donkey-drawn carts.

Water is a very emotional subject in the country such as ours where there are often water shortages. We cannot live without water and it must be used and managed well. A balance must be obtained between the water needs of the poor and those of industry, which provides the necessary job opportunities and development. Cross-subsidisation of water tariffs must, for example, be very well thought-out as expensive water will affect input costs to industry, which in turn means lower job creation. People living in the rural areas are totally dependent on a healthy water supply and it is these people who can least afford any loss or contamination of the water resources.

The Minister has stated that all South Africans will have access to proper sanitation by 2008, and the President has stated that within five years all households will have easy access to clean running water. In terms of the Municipal Infrastructure Grant Programme, local governments will be responsible for the implementation of water and sanitation infrastructural development as from 1 April this year. Municipalities will be expected to use the increased funding from the grant to achieve the Government’s goals. The first priority must be to help local government fulfil its responsibility to deliver quality water services by implementing cost recovery for services rendered and working towards a more effective and efficient use of water.

One of the biggest challenges is the eradication of the bucket system. However, there are difficulties in providing water to communities living in areas where there are hilltops and valleys as the cost of providing piped water is very high and not very cost-effective. Dry sanitation toilets could possibly be utilised in such areas as they are more effective than the bucket system. In view of diseases such as cholera and HIV/Aids, sanitation must receive urgent attention. HIV-positive mothers who feed their babies on formula milk are totally dependent on clean water. Without sanitation we cannot develop healthy children nor have productive mothers. Water is life; sanitation is human dignity.

The Government’s biggest and probably most successful Public Works programme has been the Working for Water and Working on Fire programme. This programme employs individuals from disadvantaged groups such as single parents, the disabled and youth. This programme seeks to improve South Africa’s precious water supplies by removing invasive, alien vegetation from the various catchment areas in all nine provinces, and alleviating poverty and social deprivation in the process. In South Africa invasive plants have been identified as the single biggest threat to this country’s spectacular biological diversity, and the fastest growing threat to the country’s water security. The invasive plants also use some 7% of the mean annual run-off.

Some vegetation has been identified as emerging serious invasive plants. These include the notorious pompom weed in the grasslands, which is poisonous to livestock and could destroy agricultural production. The weed is found in Gauteng and it won’t be long before it gets to the Free State and the Eastern Cape. Working for Water currently provides employment opportunities for up to 18 000 people in more than 300 clearing projects throughout South Africa. The budgeted expenditure is in excess of R500 million.

Whilst two-thirds of our planet Earth consists of water, very little of this is drinkable water. We will always have droughts, which prejudice food security and can affect industry and electricity generation. We must conserve our water resources and manage them well, otherwise the verse from the Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner will apply - ``Water, water, every where, nor any drop to drink’’. I thank you.

Mnr F ADAMS: Mnr die Adjunkvoorsitter, Ministers en lede, ek voel geïnspireer deur die magdom geleenthede in landbou wat ‘n wesenlike verskil kan maak aan die lewens van ons mense. Landbou is na my mening die ruggraat van landelike ontwikkeling. Die NNP glo dat landbou ‘n kritieke element in die Suid-Afrikaanse samelewing is.

Alhoewel daar groot waardering is vir die werk wat die Regering doen, geniet dit nie die erkenning wat dit behoort te ontvang nie. Daar moet ‘n groter bewustheid wees dat ons landboubedryf voedselsekuriteit bied op ‘n kontinent wat herhaaldelik by die internasionale gemeenskap om voedselhulp smeek. Landbou se vermoë om voedsel te voorsien en ‘n rol te speel om maatskaplike onrus te verhoed wat in voedselarm lewens voorkom, behoort ook groter erkenning te kry.

Landbou moet veral in landelike gebiede welvaart skep omdat dit die grootste werkskepper in landelike gebiede is. Dit moet ‘n beduidende maatskaplike rol speel om landelike gebiede lewensvatbaar te maak. Verder moet landbou ‘n beduidende bydrae lewer tot uitvoer en die verkryging van buitelandse valuta. Die landbou het verder die taak om gelyke toegang tot deelname in die landbou te bewerkstellig en volhoubare landelike ontwikkeling te stimuleer; om alle produsente se mededingendheid op plaaslike sowel as nasionale en internasionale gebiede te verhoog, en om die kosbare hulpbronne tot ons beskikking volhoubaar te benut en te bewaar vir die geslagte ná ons.

Grondbesit verteenwoordig vir baie mense ‘n koloniale nalatenskap. Ongelukkig vind daar soms voorvalle op plase plaas wat die hele bedryf skade berokken en in die langtermyn ‘n invloed het op buitelandse beleggings in ons landbou-ondernemings. Die landboubedryf is afhanklik van ‘n landbouvriendelike beleidsraamwerk; goeie en effektiewe infrastruktuur; ‘n vervoer-, krag- en watervoorsieningsnetwerk; ‘n belastingbeleid wat entrepreneurskap bevorder; tariefbeskerming wanneer ander lande op direkte of indirekte wyse aan hulle landbouers ‘n onregverdige voordeel probeer gee; en ‘n landelike omgewing waarin plaasgemeenskappe en eiendom veilig is.

Die steeds hoë voorkoms van plaasmoorde en -aanvalle vereis dat die veiligheid van landbougemeenskappe volgehoue prioriteitsaandag van georganiseerde landbou moet ontvang. As ons in Suid-Afrika suksesvol wil wees, moet die landbou suksesvol wees, en dan moet alle sektore van die landbou hul ongekwalifiseerd daartoe verbind om ‘n verskil te wil maak. Ek het geen twyfel nie dat ons reeds daardie verbintenis het, en dat Suid- Afrikaners in ‘n vennootskap staan wat vir álle Suid-Afrikaners voordelig is. Ek dank u. (Translation of Afrikaans speech follows.)

[Mr F ADAMS: Deputy Chairperson, Ministers and members, I feel inspired by the myriad of opportunities in agriculture that can make a material difference in the lives of our people. In my opinion agriculture is the backbone of rural development. The NNP believes that agriculture is a critically important element in South African society.

Although there is great appreciation for the work that the Government does, it does not enjoy the recognition that it should. There has to be a greater awareness that our agricultural industry offers food security on a continent that repeatedly begs for food aid from the international community. Agriculture’s ability to provide food and to play a role in preventing social unrest, which is prevalent in food- scarce lives, should receive greater recognition.

Agriculture must create prosperity, particularly in rural areas because it is the largest creator of jobs in rural areas. It must play a significant role in making rural areas viable. Furthermore, agriculture should contribute significantly to exports and the procurement of foreign currency. Agriculture has the further task of establishing equal entry to participation in agriculture and stimulating sustainable development; to increase the competitiveness of all producers in national and international spheres, and to use the valuable resources available to us in a sustainable manner and to preserve it for future generations.

Land ownership represents a colonial legacy to many people. Unfortunately certain incidents take place on farms that harm the whole industry and have an influence on foreign investment in our agricultural enterprises in the long term. The agricultural industry is dependent on an agriculturally friendly policy framework; sound and effective infrastructure; a transport, power and water supply network; a tax policy that promotes entrepreneurship; tariff protection when other countries try to give their own farmers an unfair advantage in a direct or indirect manner; and a rural environment in which farming communities and property are safe. The still high prevalence of farm murders and farm attacks requires that the agricultural communities should receive constant priority attention from organised agriculture. If we in South Africa wish to be successful, agriculture must be successful, and then all the agricultural sectors must commit themselves unconditionally to making a difference. I have no doubt that we have that commitment already, and that South Africans are engaged in a partnership that is to the benefit of all South Africans. I thank you.]

Mr J J DOWRY (Western Cape): Deputy Chairperson, hon Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs, hon Minister of Water Affairs and Forestry, MECs and …

… agb lede, die Nasionale Landboustrategie wat aan die begin van 2002 deur die President onderteken is, spel die nasionale perspektief uit waarheen landbou oor die mediumtermyn op pad is. Die departement van landbou in die Wes-Kaap is terdeë bewus van die uitdagings wat landbou in die gesig staar en ons besef dat die kwessie van grondhervorming met al sy fasette die hoogste prioriteit moet geniet. Dit is egter noodsaaklik dat alle programme binne die landbousektor die nodige aandag sal kry ten einde te voldoen aan die vereistes wat deur die strategiese planne wat op nasionale sowel as op provinsiale vlak gestel is. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[… hon members, the national strategy for agriculture that was signed by the President at the beginning of 2002 spells out the national perspective as to where agriculture is heading in the medium term. The Western Cape department of agriculture is thoroughly aware of the challenges agriculture is facing and we realise that the matter of land reform with all its facets must enjoy top priority. It is, however, essential that all programmes within the agricultural sector receive the necessary attention in order to comply with the requirements set out by the strategic plans on both national and provincial levels.]

Chairperson, in order to keep in step with the national strategy for agriculture and to meet the challenges of the day, the Western Cape department of agriculture transformed itself in such a way that it is now ready for the challenges that lie ahead. To tie in with the uniform structure as set out by the National Treasury, the department has transformed itself from five directorates into an organisation consisting of six programmes, and these are: sustainable resource management; farmer support and development; veterinary services; technology research and development; and agricultural economics and structured agricultural training.

The President, as well as the Minister for Agriculture and the Premier of the Western Cape, emphasised the importance of delivery. Our department in the Western Cape has taken up this challenge and will embark on a journey to make the Western Cape a home for all its people.

In die gees van Ikapa Elihlumayo het die departement vir hom sekere meetbare doelwitte gestel om binne die eerste 100 dae van die nuwe regering in die Wes-Kaap reeds n verskil te maak om die lewensomstandighede van die mense van die Wes-Kaap nie net in die korttermyn nie, maar ook volhoubaar oor die medium- en langtermyne te verbeter. Ek wil graag vir u n paar van hierdie doelwitte uitlig. Die eerste een is die daarstelling van n groei- en ontwikkelingstrategie vir landbou. Die departement landbou in samewerking met alle rolspelers in die provinsie sal binne die volgende drie maande die knelpunte wat tydens ons onlangse spitsberaad geïdentifiseer is, ondersoek om n omvattende strategie saam te stel. Die eerste byeenkoms het onlangs met groot sukses plaasgevind. Hier is sekere knelpunte geïdentifiseer, naamlik grondhervorming en swart ekonomiese bemagtiging, voedselveiligheid en -sekuriteit en mededingendheid van en markte vir ons boere. Landbou sal ook sy bydrae lewer tot die formulering van `n ekonomiese strategie vir die provinsie.

En dan is daar n strategie ter verbetering van verhoudinge tussen plaaswerkers en kommersiële boere. n Strategie sal ontwikkel word waarvolgens die stremminge in die verhouding tussen plaaswerkers en boere op onder andere ministeriële vlak aangespreek sal word. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[In the spirit of Ikapa Elihlumayo the department set itself certain measurable objectives already within the first 100 days of the new government in the Western Cape to make a difference in the living conditions of the people of the Western Cape, not only in the short term, but also to improve it sustainably over the medium and long term. I would like to highlight a few of these objectives. Firstly, there is the creation of a growth and development strategy for agriculture. The department of agriculture, in co-operation with all the role-players in the province, will within the following three months investigate the bottlenecks identified during the recent summit conference in order to compile a comprehensive strategy. The first meeting held recently was a great success. Here certain problem areas were identified, namely land reform and black economic empowerment, food safety and security and competitiveness of and markets for our farmers. Agriculture will also make its contribution to formulating an economic strategy for the province.

And then there is a strategy for the improvement of relationships between farmworkers and commercial farmers. A strategy will be developed according to which the constraints on the relationship between farmworkers and farmers will, inter alia, be addressed at ministerial level.]

According to the World Organisation for Animal Health, South Africa is allowed to export lamb meat to Europe from areas free of foot-and-mouth disease. However, until now the European Union did not accept bone-in-meat as a result of their fear of this disease. The Western Cape department submitted a presentation to the national department to enable us all to appeal against the decision at the World Trade Organisation and the European Union, that they were wrong in banning exports from South Africa. The Karoo has now been identified as a locality from where bone-in-lamb meat would be exported on a trial basis. We have already registered a couple of farms and strict conditions have been set for the management of the farms. The farms are mainly in the Beaufort-West and Prins Albert areas. Sheep will be slaughtered at the new Swellendam export abattoir. This export initiative will bring more jobs to this area and the economy of the region will benefit from it.

En dan n kliënte-opname; die departement landbou het n omvattende kliënte- opname onderneem om sy dienslewering behoefte-gedrewe te hou en in voeling te kom met die persepsies van sy kliënte. Hierdie opname sal binne die volgende drie maande voltooi en geïnterpreteer word en die uitslae in strategiese aksies omskryf word om geïdentifiseerde behoeftes aan te spreek. Die departement is toegewyd tot uitnemendheid in terme van dienslewering. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[And then a client survey; the department of agriculture undertook a comprehensive client survey to keep its service delivery needs driven and to get in touch with the perceptions of its clients. This survey will be completed and interpreted within the next three months and the results will be defined in strategic actions to address identified needs. The department is dedicated to excellence in terms of service delivery.]

A database of all LRAD projects connected to the geographic information system will be completed in three months’ time. Information regarding location, availability of water, quality of soil, etc, will be identified. The value of the database is that when a market is found for a certain product, the database will indicate where beneficiaries of LRAD will be best able to produce this product.

Deputy Chair, members, as indicated earlier, in an effort to address the injustices of the past the programme on land reform and transformation is of the highest priority. But it is also important that we develop a new breed of farmers that will be equipped to become sustainable, in an effort to create new jobs and contribute to the provincial economy. In this regard, the Directorate: Farmer Settlement and the Subdirectorate: Extension amalgamated to form the farmers’ support and development programme. In essence, this means that the priority of the Western Cape is realised in that the complete package required by farmers is now housed in one programme and also underpins the philosophy and principles of agricultural development.

But what does this mean? Firstly, the focus and mandate has changed. It means provision for the extension, support and facilitation of training for farmers, with special emphasis on developing emerging farmers, implementation of land reform programmes and agricultural rural development projects. The mandate manifests itself in five subprogrammes, and these are Farmer Settlement Facilities, Training and Co-ordination of the implementation of the LRAD programme, including the administration and management of disposable land, the agricultural infrastructure scheme and the disposal of agricultural state land.

The subprogramme Farmer Support Services provides extension and advisory services and facilitates training of commercial and emerging farmers, including the co-ordination of rural agricultural projects, as well as facilitating organisational development and capacity-building of farmer groups. The subprogramme Food Security co-ordinates and implements various food security projects, as highlighted and adopted in the Integrated Food Security Strategy of South Africa.

The subprogramme ``Casedra’’ reflects the undertaking by the provincial government, through a shareholders’ compact agreement, to maintain the core institutional capacity of the organisation and to deliver services such as rural development projects and support to LRAD projects. The farmworker development project is currently being established and it is foreseen that the challenges of delivery of services to this vulnerable group will be based on agricultural interventions and co-ordination of social needs.

Land reform forms a crucial part of the overall programme’s priorities. The land reform subprogramme, Integrated Food Security and Nutrition Programme as well as the Transformation of Certain Rural Areas Act will dictate the development agenda of this programme quite a lot. In addition, the Urban Renewal Strategy and the Integrated Sustainable Rural Development Programme will also demand budgetary allocations and, therefore, services.

The support to build strong farmers’ organisations at district level must be expanded to enhance service delivery and improve the overall performance of the programme. Agricultural development is the overall priority. The Farmer Support and Development Programme encompasses the broad development agenda of the department of agriculture, meaning that the design and implementation are predominantly for supporting black farmers in the Western Cape province, but does not exclude the commercial sector. This support to beneficiaries ranges from land reform to institutional capacity- building. Given that the predominant need for the development of an equitable and diverse agricultural sector has been identified, 80% of the budget will be utilised to build the capacity of the historical disadvantaged communities and individuals. The commercial sector employs more than 200 000 people, and therefore, 20% of the budget will be allocated to support this sector.

Ten slotte wil ek namens die Wes-Kaap die Minister bedank vir die rol wat sy en haar departement speel om n klimaat te skep waarin landbou in Suid- Afrika kan gedy. Ek wil weer eens die Minister verseker dat die Wes-Kaap se departement ten volle ingekoop het in die strategiese plan vir landbou in Suid-Afrika. Elke amptenaar van ons departement in die Wes-Kaap werk daagliks met toewyding en ywer aan die kontrak om armoede te verlig en n tuiste te skep vir al ons mense. Baie dankie. [Applous.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[In conclusion, on behalf of the Western Cape, I would like to thank the Minister for the role she and her department are playing in creating a climate in which agriculture can prosper. I would once again like to give the Minister the assurance that the Western Cape’s department has fully bought into the strategic plan for agriculture in South Africa. Daily every official of our department in the Western Cape works with dedication and diligence on the contract to alleviate poverty and create a home for all our people. Thank you very much. [Applause.]]

Mr J O TLHAGALE: Hon Chair, hon Ministers present here, hon special delegates from the various provinces of our country and my hon colleagues, agriculture is an important sector of the country’s economy in terms of its impact on job creation, rural development, food security and foreign exchange. Although commercial farming plays a dominant role, small subsistence and emerging farming is also important for its impact on poverty alleviation and job creation in the rural areas.

In the North West province, which is predominantly rural, it is critically important to exploit this industry to its maximum potential. The recent announcement by the President of the re-establishment of the agricultural credit board is to the emerging farmers a dream come true.

In respect of land restitution it is gratifying to report that several communities in the province have regained their ancestral land. Land redistribution in the province is also progressing at a satisfactory pace and both have the support of many South Africans across the racial divide. These achievements allay the fears of many farmers who are now beginning to believe that the problem of our northern neighbour will not be repeated here as promised by the President on several occasions. I will be less honest if I do not, at this stage, applaud the hon Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs for the able manner in which she too, is circumnavigating this agricultural ship for the good of all residents of this country.

However, our farmers need to realise that this opportunity is very rare and will not repeat itself. The best option at their disposal is to work that land to its maximum potential. It is disheartening to see, in certain circumstances, highly productive land neglected and not utilised for the benefit of the owner as well as of the community at large. In the Ramatlabama area near Mafikeng, some 18 farms that were allocated to the farmers by the previous homeland government for various reasons for which my time allocation does not allow me to discuss, have collapsed and are presently lying wasted.

These farmers owe rent and other inputs. Getting these farmers out of this quagmire is not a simple task. However, the general feeling or thought is for the consolidation of all their debts, adding them to the purchase price and offering the farms to them to buy. The UCDP supports the Budget Vote. [Applause.] [Time expired.]

Ms B N DLULANE: Thank you, hon Deputy Chairperson.

Oomama abangabaphathiswa siyababulisa kule Ndlu yesibini, ngakumbi lo mama ungu-“timeframe’’ igama lakhe elitsha. Siyabulela ukuba siphinde sibe noomama abasikhokelayo. [We welcome the women Ministers in this second House, especially that woman whose new name is ``Timeframe’’. We are grateful for the fact that we have women who lead us.] Chairperson, my speech today is on an issue that is very close to my heart, which is land. I come from poor rural areas and I know the importance of land for survival of people in the areas, especially the poor women who are left behind by their husbands who have joined other migrant workers in the cities so that they can provide for their families.

Winning the elections by an overwhelming majority shows that people are happy with the achievements of the ANC-led Government so far. It also confirms the trust that people have in Government to deliver. As our hon President said in his state of the nation address - now is the time to deliver. As an NCOP committee, we have in judge the Department of Agriculture and Land Affairs over this term on its delivery of land to the masses.

Ndiyazi ukuba bakho abantu abagxeka isebe eli besithi abakawuboni umahluko kumsebenzi walo. Abu bantu ngabantu abathanda nje ukugxeka nalapho kungafunekiyo, nabantu abangafuni zinto zintle, njenge-DA le - njengesiqhelo ke phofu. [We know that there are people who are cynical about the department, saying they have not yet seen it making progress. They are criticising destructively and are against progress, just like the DA that always does that.]

Let me state categorically that the Department of Agriculture and Land Affairs, despite the challenges it faced, has achieved a lot over the 10- year period of our democracy, with its land reform programmes, to address the imbalances of the past through accelerating land delivery to the poor. Since 1994 about 3,2 million hectares of land have been delivered under the three components of the Land Reform Programme. More than 700 00 households have benefited from that land.

Siyabona, sisiva kwaye sifunda rhoqo koomabonakude, koonomathotholo nakumaphephandaba ngabantu bethu abathi impilo yabo yaphucuka ngakumbi bakufumana umhlaba wokulima okanye indawo yokuhlala. Utata uTlhagale ugqiba kutsho ngoku. Ukuba ndinokuzikhankanya zonke ezo zinto, asingekwazi ukugoduka namhlanje. Umzekelo omhle ulapha ebumelwaneni, iDistrict Six. Abantu ababefudula behlala apho baza basuswa ngolunya nonyhamnyheko ngurhulumente wocalucalulo, bayabuyela. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)

[We see on TV, read in the newspapers and hear on the radio about the improvement in the living conditions of our people, especially after getting their own places to stay or land to cultivate. Mr Tlhagale has just confirmed that now. If I can list all of those things, we would listen forever. A good example is just around the corner, in the neighbourhood, District Six. The people who were forcibly removed by the apartheid regime are now being returned.]

Progress has been made and maintained with regard to the redistribution programme, particularly where land redistribution for agricultural development is concerned, through which a large number of beneficiaries have obtained land for agricultural purposes. To date the redistribution programme has delivered 1,8 million hectares of land out of an overall total of 3,2 million hectares delivered through all the programmes over the 10-year period of our democracy. That exceeds the target the department set for itself. Congratulations, hon Minister, through your department.

Given the progress made so far, I am confident that the department will meet the target set by the President to redistribute 30% of land available for agriculture among previously disadvantaged citizens by 2015. Let me just mention one of the success stories of the programme, the Nkomazi Project. The 241 LRAD grant beneficiaries were able to make gross earnings of about R100 000 through the Nkomazi Project, which exceeded their expectations by a big margin. We thank you again for that.

In terms of the programme of land restitution, a total of 48 825 claims were settled by the end of March this year, with 122 292 households having benefited from 810 292 hectares of land. The Land Claims Commission has 22 000 outstanding claims to settle by December 2005. I am sure we are capable of doing that.

In the past year there was more focus on the rural areas and this will continue. Over the 12 months that ended on 31 March 2004, the number of rural claims settled included claims at Guba near Queenstown, Thaba Batswana in the Free State - I have a problem pronouncing the name, which means that I must learn this language, Sesotho or whatever language it is. I need somebody to teach me, any volunteers - There is also Berglands in the Northern Cape, Rooiplan in Limpopo and kwaBhayi in kwaZulu-Natal. I cannot mention all of them because the list is very long.

The criticism by the DA and conservative white farmers that the land restitution programme will compromise food security is unfounded and is made by those who want to maintain the status quo. There is a number of success stories of beneficiaries of land restitution, such as sugar farmers in kwaZulu-Natal.

Tata uTlhagale, ugqiba kutsho. Siyayingqina le nto ubuyithetha. [Mr Thlagale, you have just said it. We concur with you.] It is a great pleasure to acknowledge the fact that the number of claims settled this year surpasses the total of 36 488 in March 2003 by 33%. At this pace the Land Claims Commission is on the right track to meeting the target for 2005 to have all claims settled. However, the challenge confronting the Land Claims Commission on this particular matter is that the budget allocated to it is not enough. When you were briefing us you told us that you needed to meet this target set for 2005, but I did not hear you, hon Minister, plead with us in this House that we must appeal to the relevant authorities for this budget allocation to be increased in order to be able to meet this target. I understand that for this year the money allocated to land restitution is the largest and constitutes 52% of the total budget of the department.

Furthermore, the budget for the land restitution programme has increased to R933 million this financial year and will increase further by R1,2 billion in the next financial year. Although there has been a significant increase in the budget for restitution, it is not enough. According to the Land Claims Commission, it needs about R13 billion and additional staff of about 500 to be able to finalise all the claims by 2005. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Ms N NAHARA (KwaZulu-Natal): Chairperson, let me add my voice to those of my other colleagues who have spoken before me by congratulating both our Ministers who have made the presentations to us today on water affairs and agriculture.

When one talks about agriculture and land affairs, one is reminded that these are some of the difficult things we have experienced in this country. Bringing back land to the people has not been an easy thing to do in this country. I want to add my voice to those of my colleagues who have elaborated on the issue of land restitution and all the other related issues. In KZN we are part of the people who stand here proud today and say that we have black farmers in our province. We have female farmers, a phenomenon that never existed before. Some of us grew up knowing that the farm is a man’s business and that it is for the white person. However, today we are proud to say that if you go and visit KZN you will be surprised to see how females can do farming and how they can produce.

In supporting this Budget Vote of Minister Didiza for agriculture and land affairs, I also want to commend her on the manner in which she and her department have been co-ordinating the work between the province and her department. We have had quite difficult issues to clear, such as the settlement of Mbangweni and Manzengwenya. These were the most difficult settlements to do, but we are happy to say that these were settled in a manner that was least expected, without any problems. The same applied to the settlement in Vryheid whereby our former Premier, Mr Mtshali, also got his title deed to his former home or a home he had lost before.

However, one of the cases that one would like to comment on is when the Bhanya farm was handed over to some farm tenants, people who never thought that one day they would have a home that they could call their own, people who would never have thought that they could be human beings equal to others, like all of us in this House. The handing over of the Bhanya farm to those people has been one of the most interesting and best achievements that we can talk about in KZN.

I want to assure the Minister here that in KZN last week I had the portfolio committee sitting. Despite the fact that our Budget has been reduced, we all agreed that Mama Didiza is there and she will always help us. To people in KZN there is nothing more important than the land and the farming that we are hoping to realise for them. Of great importance is also the programmes that we are looking forward to, for example, the farmer support and development programme, the empowerment of the small sugar-cane growers who are mainly black people, and the empowerment of small farmers who are also among rural people. We are looking at this as an achievement that will take us forward, whereby we will also address unemployment in the country.

Chair, I have noticed that there is an easy way in your House to tell a person to shut up by clapping hands, but before that happens, I would like to come back to the Minister of Water Affairs and say: Mama, I am inviting you to visit Mhlabuyalingana. I was happy when you talked about Manzengwenya and Mbazwana, but I would like you to visit these areas and see what kind of water people are drinking. The councillors had boreholes erected for us, but that water is no different from that which you can get from any stream in the street. Therefore, we are looking forward to you also, Madam Minister, to come and help us out. The area of Mhlabuyalingana, or District 27, is one of the potential areas that, as the government of KwaZulu-Natal, we are hoping to make the best tourist destination. However, the hon Mr Gwanya will tell you that when he goes to Mhlabuyalingana he has to go pass Jozini and carry bottles of water. We would really like to overcome that one so that we can address unemployment, which I am doing by promoting tourism. We support the budget. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: The easiest way of getting you to keep quiet or finish your speech, all of you, is a one-minute workshop. I will switch off your microphone from here and you can hear that your time is finished and just round off the sentence and sit down otherwise we will be forced to say, ``keep quiet and sit down’’.

Dr F VAN HEERDEN: In my previous political life I was in the National Assembly and we used to refer then to the Senate, as it was then known, and the NCOP, as it is now known, as the Other Place or ``Die Ander Plek’’.

Ek wil nou ook verwys na die Nasionale Vergadering, as ek hier praat, as die Ander Plek. [I also want to refer to the National Assembly now, when I speak here, as the Other Place.]

In yesterday’s debate the FF Plus did not take part. It was not necessary. Let me briefly say why.

In vanoggend se Die Burger is daar `n duidelike berig wat sê Didiza is bly dat die ANC en die DA hier hande vat. [In this morning’s Die Burger, there is a clear article stating that Didiza is glad that the ANC and DA are taking hands here.] I am going to quote from this report and then revert back to the FF Plus’s election manifesto, and you will see why it was not necessary for the FF Plus to have been there.

In hierdie berig, onder andere, pleit dr Manie Schoeman van die ANC vir ingryping in opleiding en landbounavorsing. Hy sê ook dat dit noodsaaklik is dat Suid-Afrikaanse boere deur opleiding en navorsing bemagtig moet word om met die regte tegnologie bestuur, variëteit en teling by te hou. Mnr Maans Nel van die DA versoek dat die boere se positiewe gesindheid ingestel word om grondhervorming te maak werk. Die samevatting is dat die DA en die ANC se toesprake hul steun vir ordelike grondhervorming, die herinstelling van die Landboukredietraad en groter aandag aan die landbou navorsing uitgespreek het.

Wat die VF Plus se verkiesingsmanifes aanbetref, hier volg enkele aanhalings daaruit: Die VF Plus erken die strategiese waarde van die landbou as voedselprodusent en werkverskaffer in Suid-Afrika.'' Dit gaan verder om te sê dat,… daarom is die VF Plus gekant teen die inperking van fondse vir die Landbounavorsingsraad en sal ons ons beywer vir genoegsame finansiële ondersteuning vir landbounavorsing en ander terreine waar finansiële steun vanaf die staat noodsaaklik is’’. Dit word gesê hier in die berigte van gister se debat dat dit nie nodig was nie. Trouens, die ANC en die DA het geargumenteer wat die VF Plus alreeds gesê het en wat die VF Plus ook ondersteun.

n Verdere aspek is dat die grondkwessie as n prioriteit beskou word om `n soortgelyke situasie as in Zimbabwe te vermy. Ons is steeds van mening dat daar genoeg grond vir herverdeling beskikbaar is en dat die administratiewe gesloer opgeskort moet word. Die VF Plus se standpunt is dat onbruikbare staatsgrond dadelik aangewend moet word vir herverdeling en dat die beginsel van vrywillige verkoper en vrywillige koper moet geld. [Tyd verstreke.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[In this article, Dr Manie Schoeman of the ANC is pleading, inter alia, for intervention in training and agricultural research. He also says that it is necessary that South African farmers must be empowered through training and research in order to stay abreast of the correct technology management, variety and breeding. Mr Maans Nel of the DA requests that the farmers’ positive disposition be utilised to make land reform work.

The summary of this is that the speeches of the DA and the ANC expressed their support for orderly land reform, the reinstitution of the Agricultural Credit Board and greater attention to be devoted to agricultural research.

As far as the election manifesto of the FF Plus is concerned, here are a few quotes from it:

The FF Plus recognises the strategic value of agriculture as food producer and job creator in South Africa.

It further states that -

… therefore the FF Plus is opposed to the curtailment of funds for the Agricultural Research Council and we will strive for sufficient financial support for agricultural research and other fields where financial support from the state is imperative.

It is being said here in the articles on yesterday’s debate that this is not necessary. As a matter of fact, the ANC and the DA were arguing what the FF Plus has said before and what the FF Plus is also supporting.

Another aspect is that the land question should be seen as a priority in order to prevent a similar situation to that in Zimbabwe. We are still of the opinion that enough land is available for redistribution and that administrative dawdling must be stopped. The view of the FF Plus is that unused state land must be made available for land reform immediately and that the principle of willing seller, willing buyer should apply. [Time expired.]]

Cllr I HLEKO (Salga): Deputy Chairperson, Minister of Water Affairs and Forestry, Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs, members of the NCOP, comrades and friends, the SA Local Government Association’s objective is to assist municipalities in delivering services in an equitable, affordable and sustainable manner. We applaud President Mbeki’s instruction to Government that all households must have access to clean running water by 2009; that more than 300 000 households must be provided with basic sanitation during this financial year; that by the end of the 2004-05 financial year all schools must have access to clean water and sanitation; and that a review of the equitable share allocation and local government resources be completed within six months. Salga recognises that not all our people are benefiting from Government policies as a result of local governments’ track record in service delivery. We therefore welcome the focus on the functioning and resources of local government.

We recognise that many municipalities need to improve the efficiency of their water and sanitation services. It is time to ensure that our people get the services to which they are constitutionally entitled. The decrease in the water and sanitation services component in the department’s 2004-05 budget reflects the transfer of infrastructure and the operational and maintenance costs of water and sanitation services to local government, as contained in the municipal infrastructure grant, the capacity-building grant and the equitable share. As at this financial year, the delivery of water and sanitation services to our people will rest solely on the shoulders of local government.

The increases in budget also reflect the envisaged establishment of CMAs and the transfer of water schemes to local government. But, in reality, this is a debate on whether our people, especially the poorest of the poor, will get access to water and sanitation services. This is a debate on whether the budget allocations for support to local government in delivering water and sanitation services are sufficient. The delivery of basic water and services will reach the 10 million mark this year, with the complete eradication of the backlog in the water services by 2008 - far ahead of the UN millennium target of 2015. Sadly, progress in the delivery of sanitation services has been much slower.

In terms of sanitation, Salga wishes to highlight three critical areas. The first area is that the country cannot have a one-size-fits-all policy regarding the appropriate level of sanitation delivery in urban, peri-urban and rural areas. While we accept that in rural areas a VIP is often the most cost-effective form of service delivery, the same cannot be said for urban and peri-urban areas. Urban and peri-urban areas are densely populated and, in most instances, were given access to waterborne sanitation prior to 1994. Politically persuading residents in these areas to accept VIPs is a difficult, if not impossible, task. Delivering VIPs in these areas then centres on an economic argument. Salga urges the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry to rethink its position that the delivery of VIPs is the appropriate level of sanitation for all areas, because we are saying it cannot be the same in all areas.

Equally important is that the White Paper on Basic Household Sanitation offers municipalities limited guidance on the practicalities of delivering affordable basic sanitation services to households with low incomes in more densely settled areas. Secondly, grants given to local government, until the introduction of the municipal infrastructure grant did not fund zinc or steel top structures. Therefore most toilets being built in terms of rural sanitation programmes will not be movable.

A long-term perspective is needed if we are to avoid a landscape littered with derelict, unusable toilets. Current approaches tend to focus on a permanent top structure with the decision about how to empty the pit postponed to a later date. In many areas, dislodging is simply not feasible for reasons of health, safety, access, cost and so on. So, these toilets will probably have to be taken apart when the pit is full. Urgent attention must be given to using different materials or designs, which allow the top structure to be movable when dislodging is not a realistic option.

Thirdly, the current situation is that too many rural schools have no toilets at all. The majority have too few toilets or not enough that are usable and safe. This impacts on the quality of the learning environment and poses health problems for the broader community. Sanitation in schools is the responsibility of the provincial department of education, with the municipality’s responsibility for water and sanitation services ending at the boundary of the school property. As a result of the extent of the school’s infrastructure backlog, the department of education does not prioritise water and sanitation ahead of any other infrastructure need. Thus, sanitation is only addressed in the context of the broad rehabilitation and refurbishment of a school, or when a new school is built. This can lead to lengthy delays in addressing school sanitation.

Should the municipality infrastructure grant make provision for school water and sanitation infrastructure where a municipality is willing to take this on? That is the question we are posing. In the context of the scale of the sanitation backlog, Salga has concerns that the department’s increasing focus on the establishment of catchment management agencies may affect the level of support to local government, especially at a time when that support will be critical to local government’s capacity to fulfil its obligation to deliver water and sanitation services to all our people. With the exception of our concerns expressed here today and last week in the National Assembly’s Portfolio Committee on Water Affairs and Forestry, Salga supports the department’s budget for 2004-05. Thank you, Chairperson. [Applause.]

Mrs J N VILAKAZI: Hon Chairperson, hon Ministers and hon members, I endorse every word my colleague Ms Nahara said on KwaZulu-Natal. Agriculture is one of the most important components of a country’s economy. Agriculture impacts on job creation, rural development, food security, foreign exchange and other livelihood related issues. In our country our historical past has witnessed a polarisation between the haves and the have-nots into categories of commercial farmers and subsistence farmers. Today we are pleased to have mechanisms in place to address those very imbalances.

The R200 million intended to support the resettlement of farmers is a move in the right direction in that the need for agricultural capacity-building is taken into account. The R60 million earmarked for land care is further encouragement in terms of the enlistment of agriculture in this country. In the province of KwaZulu-Natal, many thousands of hectares of state land lay fallow for many years owing to the incompetency of the national and provincial governments. We are pleased that there has been a delegation of powers from the national Department of Agriculture to provincial governments to enable them to identify prospective farmers and to either lease or dispose of such land, which will result in the immediate utilisation of land which has lain fallow for many years.

One of the grave concerns is the price structure of state land, and it is therefore our submission that state land particularly not be subjected to market-related prices, but that we consider what the subsistence agricultural community can afford. Of economic importance is the intended agricultural credit scheme, which we welcome. Here, again, our concern is the interest factor - whether there should be a special dispensation for different levels of the farming community. The present Land Bank rates do not contribute to or encourage the farming community. In order to venture into agriculture, we should introduce policies and institutionalise food production and farmer support systems. We need to defeat the past and our painful history. We need to give hope to our people. We must be decisive, innovative, careful and determined to move forward.

Sihlalo ohloniphekileyo, izwe nomhlaba yimpilo yomuntu wonke futhi kuzo zonke izizwe. KwaZulu-Natal la ngivela khona siphila ngawo, uyimpilo yethu. Iningi labantu abanaye umxhasi odlula inhlabathi. Umhlaba nenhlabathi kukhipha ukudla okufunwa nguwe nesithelo esifunwa nguwe, izimbali, imithi, amahlathi, nokunye.

Kuphela nje umhlonishwa ungqongqoshe angasiza abantulayo ngembewu nokunye okudingakalayo. Aphinde futhi asize abaswele ulwazi bafunde ukulima kahle umhlabathi hhayi ukuwugugisa ube zimbambhombambo esithi phecelezi yi-soil erosion.

Umhlonishwa uNgqongqoshe womnyango asize abantula amanzi lapha kungqongqoshe wamanzi. Asize kubo bonke abantula amanzi bafunde ukonga amanzi uma imvula ina. Abaningi abanalo lolulwazi. Ushilo enkulumeni yakhe ukuthi izwe lizoba lihlane maduze nje ngenxa yokuswela amanzi. Sihlalo ohloniphekileyo, nendlu yonke egameni lesifundazwe sami iKZN ngiyabonga. Noma ngingababongelanga odadewethu ngishilo ngathi ngiyavumelana nokushiwo okade ekhulumela iKwaZulu-Natal. Ngiyanibongela mantombazane ngithi phambili. Yibambeni iqine. Ngiyabonga. [Ihlombe.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraphs follows.)

[Hon Chairperson, land and soil is everyone’s life and this is the case across nations. In KwaZulu-Natal, where I come from, we live on it, and it is our life. Many people do not have any support system other than the soil. The land and the soil produce crops, fruit, flowers, plants, forests and the other things we need.

What the hon Minister can do to help the needy people is to provide them with seeds and other resources. She can also help those who need knowledge by providing them with proper agricultural skills so that they can preserve the soil instead of causing soil erosion.

The hon Minister of the department can help those who need water by interacting with the Minister of Water Affairs so that they could acquire skills to preserve water during the rainy season. In her speech she mentioned that due to the shortage of water, the country would soon turn into a desert.

Hon Chairperson and the House, may I thank you on behalf of my province, KwaZulu-Natal. Although I have not congratulated my sisters, I have already said that I supported the speaker who represented KwaZulu-Natal. Congratulations, girls, and keep up the good work. Thank you. [Applause.]]

Mr N MACK: Deputy Chairperson and protocol observers, allow me to thank both hon Ministers for, in the short time I have been here, they have inspired me. This is my maiden speech, but I am making it from the side that is rapidly becoming an endangered male species.

It is an honour that I humbly accepted to participate in this budget vote debate. I thank my organisation, the African National Congress, for affording me this opportunity. It is with African pride and solidarity that I stand here to represent a newly liberated Western Cape Province. [Applause.] The South African Bill of Rights enshrined in the Constitution makes provision for legally enforceable economic and social rights, such as the right to education, health care, clean water and sanitation and the right to a clean environment. The 1997 White Paper on Water Policy for South Africa and the National Water Act, Act 36 of 1998 entrusted our Government with the responsibility of being the trustee of our water resources.

South Africa is a water-scarce country with an erratic rainfall. Accordingly, water is transported over long distances from areas of relative abundance to areas of increasing demand. There are still 6,2 million people whose source of water is more than 200 metres away. This service needs to improve urgently to be in line with the Reconstruction and Development Programme standards so that we can bring it to a minimum of 200 metres and preferably into the homes of people. Affordable water and sanitation must be provided to the people of South Africa. The free basic water policy was launched in July 2001 and by June 2003, 78% of municipalities were implementing this policy providing more than 27 million people with free basic water services.

Nonetheless, I am aware that certain municipalities do not abide by this policy and I want to agree with the Reverend that most of these municipalities are those who do not share our vision. We must educate our people on how to use their legally enforceable right. To eradicate backlogs with regard to access to water and sanitation by 2008 and 2010 respectively, future funding to this extent is expected to increase through the Municipal Infrastructure Grant. Schedule 4 of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa, Act 108 of 1996 vests the responsibility for water supply systems and domestic waste-water and sewage disposal in local government.

However, national Government has a constitutional responsibility to support and strengthen the capacity of municipalities to manage their own affairs. It also has the authority to see to the effective performance by municipalities of their functions as matters listed in Schedule 4 and 5 of the Constitution. Therefore, the principle that funds must follow function is key to success. The World Summit on Sustainable Development held in South Africa in August 2002 and the Third World Water Forum held in Japan in March 2003 portray South Africa as being held in high regard internationally. This is based on the country’s reputation for sustainable use of forest resources, our groundbreaking approaches to water resource use and protection and for making the right to water a reality for millions who did not have it before 1994. South Africa’s leadership role in Africa continues through the agencies of the Southern African Development Community and the New Partnership for Africa’s Development - Nepad. These co-operative efforts have produced practical results such as the completion of the Magalies Dam, Phase 1B of the Lesotho Highlands Water Project, the signing of a water-sharing agreement for the Inkomati River by Mozambique, Swaziland and South Africa.

The past few years have shown a number of achievements in the management of water resources in South Africa and the implementation of the nationally acclaimed National Water Act, Act 36 of 1998. Key achievements, among other things, include the development of conservation and demand management strategies for the industrial, agricultural and domestic sectors; promoting water conservation and integrated water resource management; developing learning resources and support material; launching the Woman in Water awards and integrating water related issues in the outcomes-based curriculum. Other achievements are formal networking, consultation and communication strategies; the pilot cholera education project and the continued participation in the United Nations-HABITAT Co-ordinator for Water for African Cities Programme at various levels. There are more, from registering significant abstract users of raw water to the proper management of scarce water resources and the implementation of a pricing strategy as promulgated in 1998.

As I come from a semidesert region, the Central Karoo in Beaufort West, we really appreciated the 20 000 job opportunities that were created for the Working for Water Programme. It is a labour initiative to clear invasive alien plants and it focuses on the most marginalised, that is the poor, the rural communities, women, disabled persons and those living with HIV/Aids. Forestry South Africa has developed one of the largest planted forests in the world. Furthermore, collectively the forestry sector employs approximately 151 000 people of whom 60 000 are full time and are employed in the primary sector, while the rest are employed in the processing industries.

In response to managing the forestry sector in South Africa the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry is pursuing a reform programme that will eventually foresee the Government leasing all state owned forest land to the private sector operators. We totally agree, but I must warn that when we transfer we must be very careful and watch for companies fronting, which is something that is rearing its ugly head in many companies.

The department will thus move from the management of plantations towards promoting, regulating and developing the forestry industry. There are some achievements in forestry and no one can tell me that our Government has not done well in these ten years of democracy. Progress in forestry restructuring reached a milestone with the closure of the forestry trading account at the start of the financial year. The following example I would like to mention is one of the highlights of progress made in the restructuring of the state forest assets, namely sustainable forest management. A number of hectares of the state forest were sold to black empowerment companies representing communities living near those forest plantations. The decision by Government to restructure its forestry assets, not only those managed by the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry but also those managed by the SA Forestry Company Limited, SAFCOL, has had a marked impact on the companies since 2001. [Time expired.]

Ms M MABE: Chairperson, Deputy Chairperson of the NCOP, Ministers and Deputy Ministers present, hon members, ladies and gentlemen, Vision 2014 of the ANC manifesto states that the focus should be on:

… the measures that can and will set our country on the road to faster realisation of the ideals of our Constitution - a free South Africa that truly belongs to all who live in it, a South Africa whose wealth is used to improve the quality of life of all citizens, and a South Africa that works with humanity, to build a better Africa and a better world.

It is in this spirit that the province will focus all its efforts on growing the economy to better the lives of all our people. The quest for accelerated economic growth and job creation, accompanied by an equitable fair distribution of the benefits, serves as an overall objective of the Free State province. I will briefly touch on challenges faced by the province, and they are: land reform, financial support and the role of the Land Bank, farmer settlement and support, and agri-processing.

Land and property rights remain a highly contentious area in South Africa. It is well known that systematic dispossession, forced removals and the implementation of various discriminatory land laws under apartheid had left a legacy of highly skewed patterns of property relations, favouring white ownership in South Africa. The unquestionable need to address this gave rise to the various land reform provisions in the Constitution. We, as a province, strongly believe that there is an urgent need for communal land reform. However, reform in this area will affect just 13% of the land in South Africa, most of which is currently state owned.

Therefore it cannot by itself provide a solution either to severe overcrowding that is prevalent in communal areas, or the highly unequal distribution of land. Land reform is central to the success of South Africa’s political and economic transformation. Land represents the basis of economic activity in a community, and is a vital resource to sustainable livelihood. The alienation of people from their land was a central and recurring theme in South Africa’s history of segregation and apartheid. Dispossession cut the majority of South Africans off from access to independent livelihoods, forcing them into overcrowded reserves, and leaving them with few survival options other than selling their labour.

The fundamental challenge for a democratic South Africa is to restore people’s access to productive resources, including land, thereby enhancing their social and economic security and self-reliance. For the equitable distribution of land and security of tenure, and essential to justice, reconciliation and transformation, there is a need for the government of the day to ensure provision and access to production and income-generating assets such as land and credit. This addresses the key, underlying structural basis of poverty and inequality in South Africa.

Consequently, our Government believes that the primary objectives of the state land policy should be to confirm and strengthen the existing tenure rights of people living on communally owned land, that is, to redistribute land equitably and increasing people’s access to land, particularly in rural areas, in order to address historical legacies of dispossession and overcrowding; to safeguard the tenure rights of women and other groups that have typically had the least access to land; to enable those with access to land to use it productively, beneficially and in a sustainable manner; and to restore the community’s control over their own lives and development by allowing them to participate in decision-making about land allocation, tenure and use.

These then constitute benchmarks against which we must assess the Communal Land Rights Bill. In the South African context the Free State produces 33% of the national maize crop, 51% of the sorghum crop, and 32% of the wheat produce in the country. It is the second largest producer of sunflower seed, groundnuts and dry beans. Furthermore, a substantial portion of the country’s potato production is also produced in this province. Twenty three percent of the national wool clip and 18% of all dairy products are produced in the Free State. Hence the fact that the Free State occupies the position of being South Africa’s bread-basket.

The Free State’s agricultural production consists of 54% field crop, 12% horticultural products and 34% animal and animal products. Research reveals that we need to grow, in order to add value to existing products, and expand in order to enter into the new agri-industrial base of the Free State, since most agricultural products leave the province unprocessed. Considering the current low prices for maize and wheat together with global market trends, it is a strategic decision to expand the agri-industrial base into new segments, namely, organic produce, natural medicines, herbs and spices, essential oils, cosmetics and cut flowers.

Skills development is our Government’s priority. It is also one of the key strategies for poverty alleviation through implementation of internships and learnerships. Our Government’s National Skills Development Strategy has laid down a clear vision and objectives for us: ``skills for productive citizenship for all’’.

May I say that in our endeavour to reach the objectives for the above strategy, the province has initiated programmes in line with these objectives. We have enrolled 100 learners in ABET programmes. As we speak, 16 learners are already undergoing experimental training on agricultural line-function programmes at length, and 24 more interns will be recruited by July 2004 to bring the total figure to 40. In partnership with the primary agriculture and public service Seta, the province is preparing the workplace for rolling out learnerships before the end of this financial year.

The province has, for the first time this year, budgeted R2,7 million for skills development. With increased funding we can do better, especially on internships and learnerships on special programmes. The low level of participation by women and youth in the formal economy, as either small business owners or entrepreneurs, has for a long time been recognised as a problem in the province. It is important to recognise the important role that women and the youth play, and can play, in growing the economy and in creating jobs.

Greater participation by women and youth in the economy is important for Government as it forms part of our commitment to transform the Free State economy. We will strive not only to balance gender representation in management, but to ensure that the voice of women, youth and the disabled does not go unheard. The province is enhancing women development through programmes like the Female Farmer of the Year competition, where women are encouraged to take part in farming business.

On the rationalisation of the economy, according to the Freedom Charter, ``…. the national wealth of our country, the mineral wealth beneath the soil, the banks and monopoly industry shall be transferred to the ownership of the people as a whole’’. Black economic empowerment is an area that is of importance to the province and to the future success of the Free State economy. It is imperative for us to implement BEE as it is necessary for us to transform our economy. It is not something that we have to apologise for as it makes economic sense to have black economic empowerment and grow the number of people who participate in our economy. It is therefore a subject that cannot be divorced from economic growth, job creation and greater equality in our country, and should be embraced by all South Africans. Black economics empowerment should not only be seen in the context of transforming existing sectors, rather it should be seen as the empowerment of black people through the creation of new enterprises in a new and existing sector.

Black economic empowerment is therefore not only about the legislation that was signed by the President earlier this year, rather it is about the whole approach as to how the Government is managing the economy and creating an enabling environment for businesses. We will support black business and expose those companies that use black people as fronts. The Broad-Based Black Economic Empowerment Act and its accompanying strategy document have highlighted several deficiencies in the Preferential Procurement Policy Framework Act, in relation to Government empowerment objectives.

The Department of Agriculture in the Free State is in the process of reviewing the regulations with a view to introducing changes to systems that should become effective during the next three months of its financial year. [Time Expired.] [Applause.]

Mnr J W LE ROUX: Agb Adjunkvoorsitter, Ministers, LURs en kollegas, die hele kwessie van grondhervorming is ‘n baie emosionele saak en moet dus met groot omsigtigheid hanteer word. Indien grondhervorming polarisering in die land veroorsaak, sal daar geen wenners wees nie en sal dit oneindig skade berokken.

Die beste voorbeeld van hoe grondhervorming nie moet geskied nie, is natuurlik Zimbabwe. Die negatiewe gevolge van grondhervorming in Zimbabwe het nie net die landbou benadeel nie, maar het die hele ekonomie van Zimbabwe vernietig. Ek is vol vertroue dat daar oorgenoeg kundigheid en welwillendheid in die land is sodat dit nooit in Suid-Afrika kan gebeur nie. Dit is insiggewend dat wanneer ons as ‘n land gekonfronteer word met ‘n groot uitdaging, en wanneer ons almal saamwerk, ons groot suksesse kan behaal.

Die demokratisering van Suid-Afrika, die skryf van die Grondwet, die aanbied van die Rugby-wêreldbeker, die Wêreldberaad oor Volhoubare Ontwikkeling en nou weer die sokkerbod is enkele voorbeelde van hoe suksesvol ons wel kan wees. Ek glo dat almal in die land ten gunste is van grondhervorming en van die DA se kant sal ons alles in ons vermoë doen om te sorg dat grondhervorming suksesvol deurgevoer word. Ons as politici moet sorg dat grondhervorming uit die party-politieke arena geneem word, en die sukses van die projek moet ‘n nasionale doelstelling word. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mr J W LE ROUX: Hon Deputy Chairperson, Ministers, MECs and colleagues, the whole question regarding land reform is a very emotional issue and should therefore be handled with great circumspection. If land reform causes polarisation in the country, there will be no winners and it will cause endless damage.

The best example of how land reform should not take place is Zimbabwe, of course. The negative results of land restitution in Zimbabwe not only detrimentally affected agriculture, but also destroyed Zimbabwe’s entire economy. I am confident that there is more than enough expertise and goodwill in the country so that this for this could never happen in South Africa. It is illuminating that when we as a country are confronted with a major challenge, and when we all work together, we can achieve great successes.

The democratisation of South Africa, the writing of the Constitution, the hosting of the Rugby World Cup, the World Summit on Sustainable Development and now again the soccer bid are but a few examples of how successful we can actually be. I believe that everyone in the country is in favour of land reform and on the part of the DA we will do everything in our power to ensure that land reform takes place successfully. We as politicians must ensure that land reform is taken out of the party-political arena and the success of the project must become a national objective.]

Chairman, if we fail with our land reform initiative, the investor community will pick up the negative signals and respond by simply investing elsewhere. This is true for local investors as well as for investors from abroad. The lack of investment in South Africa is the main reason we cannot get our growth rate higher than 3%. We will never reach a 6% growth rate if investors remain unsure of a stable South Africa. It is thus extremely important that our land reform initiatives strengthen investor confidence.

As far as agriculture as a business venture is concerned, there is a perception that it is easy to make a living off the land. The contrary is actually true. It is in fact very difficult to make a profit out of farming. Farmers often joke amongst themselves by saying that if you want to make a small fortune out of farming, you must just start with a big fortune.

South Africa has a proud record of agricultural successes, and this we owe mainly to the following: the new crop of farmers entering the market from the 1960s came from an agricultural background; most new farmers had the advantage that the family had land and access to capital to buy more land was fairly easy; the Land Bank was active and the lack of capital was not a major problem at all. Secondly, there were many agricultural schools as well as highly effective agricultural colleges situated throughout South Africa. Many new farmers also had ample opportunity to obtain university degrees in agriculture. Added to this is a competent Government structure to give advice and guidance to all farmers, new and old. The co-operative system of marketing, with all its negative aspects, made it easy to market products and to plan with a degree of certainty. It is absolutely necessary to substantially assist our new farmers to guarantee success.

If our black empowerment strategy focuses only on getting as many as possible black farmers onto land, our land reform initiative will fail. Our main aim must be to have as many successful farmers, sustaining themselves and their families, making profits, employing workers and expanding their farms. Helping people to get small-holdings which have no chance of being sustainable is exactly what we must not do. This route will bring more unemployment and more poverty.

Kenya is a prime example of this. The successful farmers are doing extremely well, and the Kenyans with small, unproductive plots are poorer now than ever before. To be successful our main focus must be on training. Each new farmer must have the expertise to know exactly what to do and what to avoid. Where possible, partnerships with existing successful farmers must be promoted and supported. Support resources must be readily available and effective.

In a strategic overview the department states that in the past seven years considerable funds have been directed at providing funds for access to land, but farmer support and advisory services have not kept pace. It is hoped that the budget will rectify this imbalance. Lastly, Mr Chairman, we must create the right climate for making land reform a national priority. Up till now the land reform process has gone well and with 19 000 new farmers on the land, the DA wishes them well. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mnu M A MZIZI: Sihlalo, angiqale ngenze njena. Ngizwile ukhuluma ngabaxolisayo, abangaphumelelanga. Nami ngiqhamuka esifundeni saseGauteng, angizanga ukuxolisa kodwa angikubeke lokhu Sihlalo ukuthi siqhamuka ezindaweni ezahlukene, singamaqembu angafani kodwa siyizingane sonke zaseGauteng. Ngakho-ke uma indluinkulu ingaphumelelanga, kwamukele sihlalo ukuthi kungezizathu ezizozwakala uma bengezanga, ngoba bayazi ukuthi sibaningi ngapha bebengayithumela nenkulumo abebefisa ukuthi siyethule. Ngakho-ke kwemukele ukungabikho kwabo akungengokudelela. Siyabonga sihlalo. [Uhleko.] (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[Mr M A MZIZI: Chairperson, let me start by doing this. I heard you talking about those who apologised for not attending. I am also from the Gauteng province, and although I am not here to apologise, I must say, Chair, that we are from different places, and we are different parties, but we are all children of Gauteng. Therefore, if the members of the royal family did not attend, accept that there are valid reasons for their absence. They know that there are many of us here; they could have asked us to deliver a speech on their behalf. Therefore accept that their nonattendance was not as a result of their being contemptuous. Thank you, Chairperson. [Laughter.]]

Chairperson, the Votes before us are very important to blacks, to say the least. For many years agriculture was something unimportant after the dispossession of land during the years of apartheid. This created a vacuum insofar as the interest of blacks studying agriculture was concerned. Now that the new Government has restored land to the dispossessed, agriculture will play a very important role in both rural and urban communities. When we talk about poverty eradication, we say to people that communities must use land to plant and produce commodities for end use and export.

Angikubeke lokhu kuNgqongqoshe. Ngqongqoshe angazi ngoba naku nithi niyabaqeqesha abantu ninayo nemifundaze, angikaze ngizwe, engikholwa nawe nje impela uyazi, abantu basuka emalokishini nasemadeolobheni bathi siya emaNtaliyaneni siyofuna imifino khona. Azoba khona nini lawo mathuba okuthi abantu nabo sithi uma siya laphaya emaphandleni sifike benemifino, amaklabishi nokunye, badayise babe nezimakethe zemifino. Akukenzeki lokhu, angazi noma Ngqongqoshe singamavila yini noma kwenzekani kodwa ngiyakunxusa ukuthi lokhu ukukubheke ngeso elibanzi ukuze sikwazi empeleni ukuthi kesibe nabo abantu abakhiqizayo ngoba angazi ukuthi siyithatha kanjani le ndaba yemifino. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[Let me put this to the Minister. Minister, I do not know, because you say you train people and you have bursaries that I have never heard of and - I believe you are also aware of that - people from the townships and suburbs are saying they are going to MaNtaliyane to get green vegetables. When are the opportunities going to be available to the people from the rural areas to have green vegetables, cabbages and other things to sell and to have vegetable markets? This has not yet happened. Minister, I am not sure whether we are lazy or what is happening, but I am pleading with you to pay attention to this so that we may have people growing vegetables, because I do not know how we are to deal with the question of green vegetables. ]

Coming to land affairs, this is a very thorny issue. Land is very scarce. Even the very little that is made available to black communities does not add up to much. The lack of skills is a problem. The Government will have to work very hard to address the issue of scholarships in order to send some of our youngsters to study both agriculture and the use of soil, so that when land is made available it will not be regarded for grazing purposes only. People must be aware that land needs to be protected from many things. In short, there is much to be learnt about land.

Nalapha Ngqongqoshe mangiphinde ngize kuwe. Kunesimo esingabukeki kahle. Yebo, umhlaba asisenawo emadolobheni ngoba bayasuka emakhaya baye emadolobheni ngenxa yokuthi amakhosi ashiywe ngaphandle kulezi zimo. Ngakho- ke silahlekelwa ngokuningi, siyogcina sesiyisizwe esingenabukhosi, sesingamalulwane, amahhuwa, amaqanda angachamuseli. Ngakho-ke singacela kuwe ngoba siyazi ukuthi niyaxoxisana namakhosi ukuthi asondele akwazi ukuthi nawo abambe iqhaza ngoba phela asifuni ukuthi kuthiwe sesibuswa ngomasipala. Yiyona-ke leyo nto esethusa kakhulu ngoba uma kulahleka ubukhosi iyalahleka indlela. Azibuye emasisweni. Ngingabeka umzekelo lapha Ngqongqoshe othi inkosi yakwaKekana, ngikholwa uyazi, sengifike kaningi ehhovisi layo umhlaba wawuthathwe yizifikanamithwalo zawugcina lowo mhlaba. Uma sezibuya emasisweni, iNkosi uKekana usalala. Izingane nabazukulu mabadle phela izithelo zeNkosi uKekana kuthi umhlaba waseHammanskraal ubuye uye kwaKekana ukuze nabo banethezeke. Empeleni amakhosi ayakhala, Ngqongqoshe, sengathi ungawelekelela ukuze izwe libuye sibuse. Nezinkomo-ke manje sezizozala zizale namawele. Kwaphela isikhathi. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[Here again, Minister, let me address you. There is a situation that is not admirable. Indeed, we no longer have enough land in towns as people prefer urban areas to rural areas, because traditional leaders are left out. As a result we lose a lot, we will end up being a nation without traditional leadership, we have become like bats. We therefore ask you, because we know that you talk to the amakhosi, to ask them to come closer and take part, as we do not want to be said to be ruled by the municipalities. It is this thing that frightens us the most, because if chieftainship is lost, we will also lose our way. Let us go back to our cultures. I can cite an example here with iNkosi from the Kekana tribe who had his land taken by the foreigners, and they kept that land, which I believe you know about. When we go back to our culturesÿ.ÿ.ÿ. iNkosi Kekana has passed away, but his children and grandchildren must get the fruits of iNkosi Kekana and the land in Hammanskraal must go back to the Kekanas so that they also live in comfort. In fact, Minister, amakhosi are complaining, can you help them so that the land may be restored. Then there will be prosperity in the land. [Time expired.]]

Nkk M N OLIPHANT: Sihlalo, boNgqongqoshe abahloniphekile namalungu ahloniphekile, kafushane nje, ngaphambi kokuthi ngiqale inkulumo yami, ngizothanda ukucebisa umama uVilakazi ukuthi mhlawumbe ukuba ubeyingxenye yomhlangano ngesikhathi uMnyango wezoLimo nezoMhlaba usicobelela ulwazi ngethemba ukuthi ubengeke abe nale nkinga anayo. Ngingancoma ukuthi ngelinye ilanga athi hulukuqu uma ngabe sinomhlangano neminyango ukuze abe nalo ulwazi. (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[Chairperson, hon Ministers and hon members, just briefly, before I begin my speech, I would like to advise Mrs Vilakazi that perhaps if she had been part of the meeting when the Department of Agriculture and Land Affairs gave us the information, I believe she wouldn’t have this problem. I would recommend that some day when we have meetings with departments she should come along so that she can obtain information.]

I want to draw the attention of hon members Van Heerden and Le Roux to the fact that since the Native Land Act of 1913 stated that the rights to own, rent and even sharecrop land in South Africa depended upon a person’s racial classification, millions of Africans were forced to leave their ancestral land and resettle in what quickly became overcrowded and environmentally degraded reserves of cheap migrant labour for white-owned farms and mines. Black people lost even the right to purchase land in the reserves and were obliged to utilise land administered by tribal authorities, which was approved by the government.

I believe that members of the FF Plus, who were previously CP members, and those members of the DP, who were also PFP, did not oppose that Land Act. Here we are, debating the Agriculture budget in South Africa, yet they speak about Zimbabwe. We are not debating a budget of Zimbabwe here. [Interjections.] I want to inform the hon Le Roux that I am not sure how the lives of the people were at that time. Were they emotional or not when the land was distributed, as the hon Le Roux is emotional today?

On 26 June 1955, the Congress of the People adopted the Freedom Charter. In that congress a declaration was made which stated that restrictions of land ownership on a racial basis shall be ended; and that all the land shall be divided among those who work it to banish famine and land hunger. This is what the Department of Agriculture and Land Affairs is doing now.

By increasing the Agriculture budget the Government will be in a position to create more jobs and at the same time contribute to economic growth. As we speak, Land Affairs has a land redistribution programme that provides poor people with land for residential and productive purposes in order to improve their livelihoods. The programme not only assists subsistence farmers, but also aims at settling black emerging and commercial farmers by providing previously disadvantaged communities with access to land. This is specifically for agricultural purposes as well as to improve the nutrition and incomes of the rural poor who want to farm on any scale.

During the apartheid era some farmers used to pay their workers part of their salaries in alcohol. It was called the tot system''. After 1994, the ANC-led Government called on business people, including farmers, to improve the lives of their workers. One farmer heard that call and he sat down with his workers and said:I need your help. Run the farm for me and make a championship wine, and I will reward you once that has happened.’’ In May 1996 his wine was crowned a South African champion. In May 1997 he called his farmworkers and said: ``I will give you 9,5 hectares of vineyards. The land should be used for agricultural purposes. If you do not want it, I will buy it back from you. If you do grow grapes, you can use my farming equipment for three years. If you decide to make wine, you can do so in my cellar.’’ I am not sure whether Le Roux or Van Heerden can do that.

This meant that, working together, we could make a difference and give a positive impact in a sense that contributes towards poverty alleviation, black economic empowerment, nation-building and moral regeneration. A declaration made by the Congress of the People in 1955 said, ``the state shall help the peasants with implements, seed, tractors and dams to save the soil and assist the tillers’’.

Sikubonile-ke lokhu KwaZulu-Natal kwenzeka lapho umnyango wezolimo, ngaphansi kukamhlonishwa uMakhaye, unikeza izimbewu kubalimi abasafufusa kanye nogandaganda ngenhloso yokubasiza. [We have witnessed this happening in KwaZulu-Natal, where the department of agriculture, under the hon Makhaye, gave out seeds and tractors to emerging farmers to help them.]

Through the Land Affairs budget, the Government assisted these workers in farming their communal property and they started to grow grapes. After their harvest their first bottle sold like a dream. For these workers this was a dream come true. This example of these workers proves that the freedom we have won enables us to choose our own destiny and, in so doing, take our development into our own hands.

We, as the ANC-led Government, have proved our commitment in pushing back the frontiers of poverty. The farmworkers shifted from poverty and alcoholism to successful wine making. Agriculture has a great potential to assist in the fight to alleviate poverty in rural areas.

Given the apartheid legacy, the expansion of agricultural opportunities to poor, rural communities is closely linked to access to land and water. Hon Minister of Agriculture and Land Affairs, the hon Mr Tlhagale confirmed that there is no other political party that can help our communities in terms of sustainable development, except the ANC. Hon Minister, as members of the ANC you make us proud for guiding the department in the right direction, and we are on the right track. This confirms that the ANC-led Government is the government of the people, by the people and for the people. South Africa belongs to all who live in it, black or white. I thank you. [Applause.]

The MINISTER OF WATER AFFAIRS AND FORESTRY: Chairperson, let me first express appreciation to all the members who participated in my debate and who made invaluable contributions. Let me preface my responses by first reporting - I think it will also be the first time that the Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs will be hearing this - that in Maputo last week, agriculture took centre stage as an answer to Africa’s problem of poverty and food shortage. Water for agriculture - that can ensure growth and sustainability in this area was also very central in all the debates. This illustrates the importance and the interdependence of both agriculture and water.

Having said that, let me first respond to the issue raised by Rev Moatshe in the context of ``we have a vision’’. He said something about aquaculture, and I want to say that we have a vision, as the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry, to support aquaculture. But we will have to investigate this matter: the possibilities for fish farming, as well as protecting the quality of water, so that we can be able to use water for that purpose. Surely we will have to collaborate with the relevant departments: Agriculture and Land Affairs, and Environmental Affairs and Tourism.

On the issues raised by Mr Worth I want to acknowledge that it’s true that our country is water-stressed. That is why as a department we thought that we needed to come up with a comprehensive approach to address the problem of water shortage, and to that end we will be coming up with a national water resource strategy, which we will be publishing within three months. In it we will outline how South Africa should participate in the use of water effectively, and how we should protect and develop our water. I also noted the comment that he made about the need for us to design tariffs and cross-subsidies carefully. I think this is very, very important. But most importantly, we need to ensure that those people who can afford to pay for water do so; and as for those who cannot afford to pay, we as a Government must ensure that they exercise their right to have clean, potable water, even if they are poor. I think the present policy, the Free Basic Minimum Policy, seeks to do just that.

The hon Nahara reported on the quality of water in Mhlabuyalingana. I will request our office in KZN to investigate this matter, and they will report to us in due course, but I think I am also identifying it as one of the priority areas. As I will be visiting the provinces, I will include that area so that I can visit it and see for myself what the situation is like.

Councillor Hleko, I think it is proper and correct for you to say that this debate is about whether we have enough money to support local government, especially for the delivery of basic services. I think and I believe that we do have enough money to support local governments, particularly with the help of donor funding. The EU has already contributed the considerable amount of R600 million for 2003-04, and we are looking at getting R400 million for 2004-05 towards the water services project, under the programme that we call Masibambane [Let us hold hands], so I think there is a considerable amount, isilungu sinjalo [as one says in English].

We agree with Councillor Hleko that there are challenges in the area of sanitation. I would take time if I were to really elaborate on the issues that have raised, but it may be of importance to highlight that there has been fragmentation in delivery in this particular area. The function itself was divided amongst six departments, and we have done well as a department to ensure that activities and efforts are co-ordinated amongst all these departments. On the question of water-borne toilets replacing the bucket- system, the matter is under discussion between the Ministries of Provincial and Local Government and Water Affairs and Forestry, and in due course we will be making an announcement on this particular issue.

Lastly, I would like to say to Mr Mack that it is correct that apart from the 4,5 million people who still have no access to safe water, and whom we are prioritising, there are six million other people whose access to water does not meet the RDP standards. We will be addressing this particular problem, and surely by the time we reach our targets, the situation will have been reversed. We will be encouraging and monitoring the Department of Provincial and Local Government to give priority to addressing this particular backlog, as well as working with them and the treasury to increase the funds available for water and sanitation, and I want to lobby the Minister for Land Affairs and Agriculture on this matter. In this way we hope to help our people climb the water and sanitation ladder of steadily improving levels of service.

On the question of capacity, we are working together with the Department of Provincial and Local Government to ensure that, as we are transferring the functions from Water Affairs to local governments, we are also transferring some of the skills to them so that the question of capacity is attended to. I thank you. [Applause.]

The MINISTER FOR AGRICULTURE AND LAND AFFAIRS: Thank you very much, Deputy Chair. Before I respond to the issues, perhaps it’s necessary for me to thank the House for having put this debate in a cluster form. I know in one way they were trying to respond to the work that the select committee of this House does in relation to the oversight work of the Ministries that were debating the budget today. It also points to clear areas of alignment that we need to continuously work on between Water Affairs and Forestry, and Agriculture and Land Affairs. As the Minister was speaking, particularly on how she and her department are going to try to work with us in providing water - with regard to small-scale farmers - I said that, indeed, this is one of the areas of alignment.

I also want to say that some areas of alignment could be in Working for Water as well as Landcare, because these programmes are about improving and safeguarding the quality of land. Bab’uMzizi said we need to ensure that we look after our land. So as part of our ongoing programmes we have done just that and we are going to continue. And, maybe one day we must have a workshop for this House so that even the hon members themselves would know their responsibility in terms of water and land management.

It is also my view that, probably, one of the other areas where we can co- ordinate - working as this cluster and with the select committee - is to see to what extent a number of our beneficiaries, through LRAD land redistribution, restitution, as well as in the communal areas, can actually use the Landcare and Working for Water programmes to improve and rehabilitate the land that have gone back to the people.

The other matter, obviously, is efficient water use. Apart from making water available for agricultural purposes, I think the select committee itself, working with the two departments, can have some campaign, particularly at communication level, to increase general awareness among our people and all other land users about the importance of water conservation. That goes for issues of biodiversity management, working together with the Ministries of Environmental Affairs and Tourism, as well as Water Affairs and Forestry.

Mphathisihlalo, mangibonge kumalungu ale Ndlu athe athatha inxaxheba kulo msitho wanamhlanje. Mangibonge ikakhulukazi oogxa bam, ii-MEC eziphuma emaphondweni, ndixolisele nezinye kuba namhlanje njengokuba sisazi, izindlu zamaphondo kakhulukazieburhulumenteni ziye zibe neentlanganiso zamabhunga alawulayo ngolu suku. Loo nto yenza ukuba bangakwazi ukuba kho. Kambe ke nizivele ngokwenu ukuba amaphondo esebenzisana nathi singundlunkulu, enza ntoni ukugweba indlala kunye nokukhulisa ezoqoqosho kweli lizwe ngakwezolimo. Iya kuba ntle ngenye imini into yokuba mhlawumbi intetho yohlahlo-lwabiwo-mali siyenze ngosuku olungonguwo uLwesithathu ukuze bonke abameli bamaphondo kwezolimo bakwazi ukuzithethela betyebisela le Ndlu ngabakwenzayo. (Translation of isiXhosa paragraph follows.)

[Chairperson, let me thank the hon members of this House for participating in today’s debate. A special thanks to my colleagues the MEC’s from the provinces. I want to apologise on behalf of the others who could not be here today, as we are all aware that on this day, provincial legislatures hold their caucus meetings in their respective constituencies. That is way they are not here. By the way, you have heard what the provinces, working together with us the national Government, are doing to alleviate poverty and develop the economy through Agriculture in this country. It would be a great idea if we could one day consider doing the budget speech on a weekday other than Wednesday, so that all the provincial representatives for agriculture could come and speak for themselves, and tell this House about what they are doing.]

It was very interesting to hear the member of the FF Plus, who unfortunately is not here, outlining why they didn’t participate in yesterday’s debate in the National Assembly. I think all of us could see that the member hadn’t prepared. It means they were not even prepared yesterday. He tried to use the manifesto, which basically did not say anything. I wouldn’t want to waste my time, but clearly it is necessary for us to look at how far parties such as the FF Plus have committed themselves to land reform. Because when you look at the statements that come from some of their members, it is clear that they are not yet committed.

Mphatsi Sihlalo, angibonge kubabe Mzizi. Angitsi nje babe Mzizi, siyasebentisana nemakhosi babe. Sisebentisana futsi ngendlela yekwekutsi kuba bete tinkinga. Bengibekile enkhulumeni yami kutsi sitawusebenta indzawo yakaNongoma naletinye kulungisa umhlaba. Ngingasho nje kutsi sicelo sasiphuma emakhosini. Umnumzane Mamase wetfule tinhlelo labatentako teKukhicita kudla ngebunyenti, tentiwa etindzaweni basebentisana nemakhosi. Ngingasho kusti kuleminyaka lelishimi budlelwane betfu nemakhosi bukhulu kakhulu futsi buhle, kantsi-ke futsi ekusebentisaneni kwemakhosi namasipala kute tinkinga. Mhlawumbe masingatibopheleli etintfweni lebesitisho eminyakeni letsite bese kutsi uma kufanele kube khona tingucuko bese siyesaba kutsi tintfo tiyasebenta. Kufanele kubete tinkinga emkhatsini wekusebentela bameli labakhetsiwe nalabo lababekwe ngekwendzabuko. Tsine-ke siyiAfrican National Congress sikuva kahle loko futsi nje akusiphatamisi. Sitawukwenta sisebentisana nalamakhosi. Futsi emakhosi sisebentisane nawo ekuguculeni lomtsetfo wekutsi umhlaba wemakhosi ubuyele ebantfwini, sapindze sawaniketa nemandla ekutsi awuphatse njani lomhlaba, asebentisana nebantfu bawo ngobe sifuna kutsi emakhosi abe yincenye yentfutfuko. Emakhosi-ke labekwe bantfu ngeke abe nenkinga ngobe ayawati kutsi umsebenti wawo uyini.

Make Vilakazi, angitsi-ke make wami mhlawumbe lowayephetse ngalesa sikhatsi eminyakeni leyendlulile, hhayi Makhaya, akakwentanga lokwa besivumelene ngako ngobe lomtsetfo we-State Land Disposal Power of Attenecy siwunikete eminyakeni lemibili leyendlulile make. Kodvwa njengobe usho nje, nami ngitibonele kutsi nguloku siyadzidzitela, angeke ngisho ligama lasemtini wami kutsi siyadidizela. KaZulu besididizela nje kungavakali kutsi sibabeka nini labalimi. Kungako nje sitsi tsine sitawuke silubuke kahle loluhlelo lwekuniketa emandla etifundzeni mayelana nekuniketwa kwemhlaba kutsi luhamba kahle yini kuto tonkhe tifundza, kute sikwati kutsi uma kukhona, lapho kucega khona sibasite bantfu.

Make Dlulane, angibonge sikoni wami kutsi ukhulumile impela ngaloludzaba lolukutsintsako lwemhlaba. Yebo uma ubuka indzawo yaseMphumalanga eNkhomati, ubuke nalapha etindzaweni taseEastern Cape, lapho sibanikete khona bantfu umhlaba ngekwe-Elrad, kuyabonakala kutsi bantfu uma banikiwe emandla, baniketweta netintfo tekusebenta bayakwati kuwulima umhlaba. Make Nahara, angibonge nakuwe kubambisana kwetfu, sisebentisana kuleprovinsi yaKwaZulu Natal. Ukwatile kutsi njengasihlalo welikomidi unikete umhlahlandlela nekomidi yakho, kutsi uma kunetinkinga ikakhulu kuloluhlelo lwemhlaba ningatsi nine nite emandla ekuphatsa kodvwa nikwati kucatululula tinkinga. Loko kwente kwekutsi leticelo njengobe usho nje sikwati kuticatulula ngekuthula kuleya ndzawo.

Ngifuna-ke kusho babe Tlhagale kutsi cha ngikuvile babe, kodvwa inkinga yaletikwelede angeke ilunge ngekumane sitsi nje cha akukhosolideyitwe. Kadze besikhosolideyitha, kufanele sibone kutsi inkinga ikuphi. Lenye inkinga yindlela labohulumende belubandlululo labebenta ngayo tintfo, kutsi umuntfu umbona kutsi akakwati kulima kepha mhlawumbe ngobe bayati kutsi utawubavotela bese bamnika imali, angakwati kuyisebentisa. Angifuni-ke kungena kakhulu kuloko, singacoca ngako sobabli. Kepha lokunye lakhulume ngako make Vilakazi kutsi mhlawumbe uma sitsengisa lemihlabatsi singenti ngentsengo yetimakethe. Ngifuna kusho kutsi singuleliTiko leTemhlaba, uma ubuka intsengo lesiniketa uMhlaba waHulumende ingaphasi, kashane le neyemakethe. Umbuto lekufanele siyibute kutsi ngabe labantfu singabasita kanjani kutsi bakwati kwelekelelwa ngetimali njengobe Mengameli asashito kutsi i-Agricultural Credit Scheme ngulenye intfo letawusita lababantfu labatsi uma baya emabhange, emabhange atsi kute, abanawo emandla lafanele.

Babe Moatshe, angibonge kakhulu ngekutsi usinikete umdlandla, usikhutsate. Indzaba-ke yale-Aqua Culture, Mfundisi wami, siyayenta nome sitsi-ke umhlahlandlela awukabi khona. Uma sibuka kuloluhlelo lwe-Special Food Security Programme eLimpopo,basebentisana nenyuvesi yakhona, bakhe emathange ekutsi bakwati kufuya tinhlanti letidliwako. Akudzingeki nje kuphela kutsi umbe umgondzi, ufake emanti bese ufaka tinhlanti. Tikhona tindlela tekukwenta loko. Kodvwa inkinga lekufanele siyicatulule njengobe ashito make Sonjica kutsi singenta kanjani kuloluhlelo,sakhe umhlahlandlela nome-ke inchubomgomo emkhatsini walamatiko kute kutsi uma sikhutsata lokufuywa kwentinhlanti singangcolisi emanti lanatfwa bantfu. Kantsi futsi sikwati kwelekelela bantfu, sati futsi kutsi lichaza lebahwebi-magovu, lona likuphi, njengobe wati kutsi sike sakhulumisana nani nekomidi kulomnyaka lowendlulile. Kukhona tinkinga lotfola kutsi laba labanye labafuna kwenta timali, bafuna sente ngendlela letsite, bangafuni kubona kutsi tindlela letingaphi letingasetjentiswa nekutsi bantfu bakwati kudla. Sitawuchubeka- ke babe sisebentisane nani kanye nalamatiko lengiwabalile, kutsi sicedzele loludzaba lwenchubomgomo ye-Aqua Culture, ngobe lunetinhlangotsi letinyenti latitsintsa ematiko lamanyenti. Kodvwa loko akusho kutsi asikakuva, sikuvile.

Ngibonge-ke Mphatsi Sihlalo, bese ngitsi-ke njengemalunga alendlu sitsite uma sitsi sitawukhuluma nalanamuhla satsi sitawuphindze siniphatsele nembewu nani. Uma niphuma lapha emnyango nitawtfola sibeke emabhokisana lamancane, lanembewu lesifuna niyitjale lena emakhaya enu. Nitivele nine kucala kutsi kusebenta umhlaba kunjani. Uma sengibuya-ke kulenkhulumomphikiswano kulomnyaka lotako, ngifuna kubona emakherothi, tipinashi, nitibeka lapha ematafuleni, ngibone ngempela kutsi bangaphi labangemavila nekutsi bangaphi labakhutsele, ngiyabonga. [Lihlombe.] (Translation of Siswati paragraphs follows.)

[I thank you, Mr Mzizi. Let me tell you, Mr Mzizi, that we do work hand in hand with the traditional leaders. We work so well that there are no problems. I mentioned in my speech that we will be working in Nongoma and other places, solving the issue of land disposal. I must say that the request came from the traditional leaders. Mr Mamase has presented the programmes that they have embarked on, like food mass production; they undertake these, working together with the traditional leaders. I can say that in these 10 years, our relationship with the traditional leaders has deepened, it is very good and there are no problems with the collaboration between the traditional leaders and the municipality. Maybe we should not bind ourselves to things that we used to say in the past, so that when there are changes we are too scared to say that things are working. There should be no problem between working for elected representatives and those that are traditional. As for us, we as ANC understand that correctly and it does not disturb us. We will do this working together with the traditional leaders, and we also worked together with them in respect of changing the legislation about state land that must be given back to the people. We also gave them the power to control the land, working together with the people who own it. By telling you that, we want to let you know that traditional leaders have been part of the changes. Traditional leaders stated by the people will not have a problem, because they know what their duty is.

Coming back to you, Mrs Vilakazi, let me say that maybe at the time, in the past years, the person in power, not Mr Makhaya, did not do what we had agreed upon because the policy concerning Power of Attorney on State Land Disposal was passed in the past two years. But as you say, I have also seen for myself that it is because we are going back and forth. I will not mention my family surname - we are going round in circles. In KwaZulu-Natal we have been going round in circles, it was not known when were going to settle these farmers. That is why we say that we will look into this issue of giving provinces power concerning land disposal, if it is progressing well in all provinces. If there is a problem somewhere, we will help those people.

Ms Dlulane, I thank you, my sister-in-law. You spoke so well about this issue pertaining to the land, which touches you. Of course, if you look at Mpumalanga, Komati and some places in the Eastern Cape, where people have been given land through the LRAD, it is evident that when people are given power and the tools to utilise, they can farm the land. I also thank you, Ms Nahara. I thank you for our working together in the KwaZulu-Natal province. As chairperson of the committee, you and your committee know how to give guidelines. When there are problems, especially pertaining to land, you don’t refuse and say that you have no power to control, but you are able to solve those problems; like you say, this has enabled us to settle the claims in that area peacefully.

I want to tell you, Mr Tlhagale, that I have heard you, but the problem of the debt cannot be solved by saying that we should consolidate. We have been consolidating all the time. We have to find out where the problem lies. Another problem is the way the apartheid government used to do things, even when they saw that a person could not farm, but because they knew that that particular person would vote for them, they would give him money, while he could not even use it properly. I do not want to go deeply into that, the two of us can talk about it later. What Mrs Vilakazi also touched on is that maybe when we sell the land, we should not sell it at a market-related price. I want to say that, as the Department of Land Affairs, when you look at the price at which we are selling the state land, it is far below the market price. The question we should be asking is: how can we help the people financially, as the President has mentioned that the Agricultural Credit Scheme is another way that will help the people who, when going to the banks, are refused help, or tell them that they do not have appropriate capacity.

Mr Moatshe, let me thank you for giving us courage. Concerning the aquaculture, my Reverend, we are going on with it, even if we say there are no guidelines yet. When we look into the Special Food Security Programme in Limpopo, working together with the university there, they have built water tanks so that they can breed fish for food. It is not as if all that is needed is to dig a hole, fill it with water and then put in the fish. There are ways of doing this. But the problem we should solve, as Ms Sonjica has mentioned, is how we do it in this programme. We must formulate guidelines or a policy for co-operation between these departments so that when we encourage the breeding of fish, we do not pollute the water that the people drink. And we know how to help the people and what the role of capitalists is, as you know, from when we spoke to you and the committee in the past years. There are problems in that those who want to make money, want us to do things in a certain way, they do not want to find out how many other ways there are and that people should be able to get food. We will continue working with you and the departments that I have mentioned, to conclude the issue of aquaculture because there are many factors that include many departments, but that does not mean we have not understood; we have understood you.

When we told the members of this House that we will talk even today, we promised them that we will bring you some seeds. As you walk out of the door, you will see some small boxes with seeds; we want you to plant them at your homes. You must be the first ones to experience how it is to work with land. When I come back to this debate next year, I want to see carrots and spinach on your tables, so that I can see how many of you are lazy and how many are not! Thank you. [Applause.]]

The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order, Order! Thank you very much to both Ministers for replying to the debate. It would seem as if the Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs knew what I was going to say at the end of the debate. It’s actually we who want to say to both of you: ``Thank you for allowing us to cluster you’’. I will tell you the reason why we did this.

It is not mainly because of the pressure of time that we have, but it’s also that this Council’s vision, in the third Parliament, is to do more regarding the provinces because we link directly to the provinces. And we are very happy and pleased that when Ministers come to this House it encourages their MECs to be here - where possible. Because we are going to do much work with them on the ground and with the committees down in the provinces, by looking at those problems which have been outlined by the department and assisting with the delivery on the ground, so we want to thank you very much for agreeing that we cluster you.

But, more importantly, it has also enlightened us, as members of the Council, with regard to areas of alignment that the Ministers have been talking about. It is critical, because when we go down there to do our work in the provinces we will know exactly what we are going to do. And, we know that when we go there we will be in a position to assist and come back here to debate the issues, and also advise the Ministers correctly. Therefore, we wish to thank you very much. May I also thank you, Minister for Agriculture and Land Affairs in particular, for setting a very good tone for us today by using different languages in this Chamber. That is very important. You are aware that Parliament has now passed the language policy. We are spending millions of rands on developing interpretation skills, employing personnel and developing the equipment to do so, but also to speak to our people directly in our constituencies.

Let us use these languages. South Africa is very rich in languages - the diversity of languages. Let’s use them and not be afraid. I wish to thank all of you who participated in this debate.

Debate concluded.

The Council adjourned at 17:22. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

                        THURSDAY, 3 JUNE 2004 ANNOUNCEMENTS National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. Assent by President in respect of Bills

 (1)    South African Social Security Agency Bill [B 51D - 2003]  -  Act
     No 9 of 2004 (assented to and signed by President on 30 May 2004).

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Minister in The Presidency

 Strategic Plan  of  Government  Communication  and  Information  System
 (GCIS) for 2004-2007.

                         FRIDAY, 4 JUNE 2004

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Minister of Public Works Strategic Plan of the Department of Public Works for 2004-2007.

2. The Minister of Science and Technology

 Strategic Plan of the Department of Science and  Technology  for  2004-
 2007.

1. The Minister of Water Affairs and Forestry

 Strategic Plan of the Department of Water Affairs and Forestry for 2004-
 2007.

                         MONDAY, 7 JUNE 2004

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Council of Provinces

1. Referrals to committees of papers tabled

 The following papers have been tabled  and  are  now  referred  to  the
 relevant committees as mentioned below:
 (1)    The following paper is  referred  to  the  Select  Committee  on
     Social Services:


     Strategic Plan of the Department of Housing for 2004-2007.


 (2)    The following papers are referred to  the  Select  Committee  on
     Land and Environmental Affairs for consideration and report:


     (a)     Re-Accession to the International Organisation of Vine  and
          Wine (OIV) under a New Revised Statute,  tabled  in  terms  of
          section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996.


     (b)      Explanatory  Memorandum  to  the   Re-Accession   to   the
          International Organisation of Vine and Wine (OIV) under a  New
          Revised Statute.


 (3)    The following papers are referred to  the  Select  Committee  on
     Economic and Foreign Affairs for consideration and report:
     (a)      Geneva  Act  of  the  Hague   Agreement   Concerning   the
          International Registration of Industrial  Designs,  tabled  in
          terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996.


     (b)     Protocol Relating to the Madrid  Agreement  Concerning  the
          International Registration of Trade Marks, tabled in terms  of
          section 231(2) of the Constitution, 1996.


     (c)     Explanatory Memorandum on the Ratification  of  the  Madrid
          and Hague Systems on  the  Registration  of  Trade  Marks  and
          Designs.


 (4)    The following paper is  referred  to  the  Select  Committee  on
     Labour and Public Enterprises:


     Strategic Plan of Government Communication and  Information  System
     (GCIS) for 2004-2007. TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Minister of Public Enterprises

 Report and Financial Statements of Eskom for the year ended 31 December
 2003, including the Report of the Independent Auditors on the Financial
 Statements for the year ended 31 December 2003.

1. The Minister of Home Affairs

 Strategic Plan of the Department of Home Affairs for 2004-2007.

1. The Minister of Correctional Services

 Strategic Plan of the Department of  Correctional  Services  for  2004-
 2007.

                        TUESDAY, 8 JUNE 2004

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. Assent by President in respect of Bills

 (1)    Petroleum Pipelines Bill [B 22B - 2003] -  Act  No  60  of  2003
     (assented to and signed by President on 31 May 2004);


 (2)    Powers, Privileges and Immunities of Parliament  and  Provincial
     Legislatures Bill [B 74 - 2003] - Act No 4  of  2004  (assented  to
     and signed by President on 31 May 2004); and


 (3)    National Environmental Management: Biodiversity Bill  [B  30D  -
     2003] - Act No 10 of 2004 (assented to and signed by  President  on
     31 May 2004).

1. Draft Bills submitted in terms of Joint Rule 159

 (1)    Electoral Commission Amendment  Bill,  2004,  submitted  by  the
     Minister of Home Affairs on 8 June 2004. Referred  to  the  Ad  Hoc
     Committee on Home  Affairs  and  the  Select  Committee  on  Social
     Services.

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Minister of Public Works

 (a)    Status Report of the South  African  Construction  Industry  for
     2004.


 (b)     Memorandum  by  the  Minister  of  Public  Works  setting   out
     particulars of the Building Programme for 2004-2005 [RP 70-2004].

                       WEDNESDAY, 9 JUNE 2004

ANNOUNCEMENTS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. Assent by President in respect of Bills

 (1)    Social Assistance Bill [B 57D -  2003]  -  Act  No  13  of  2004
     (assented to and signed by President on 5 June 2004).

1. Introduction of Bills

 (1)    The Minister of Home Affairs


     (i)     Electoral Commission Amendment Bill [B 7 - 2004]  (National
          Assembly - sec 75) [Explanatory  summary  of  Bill  and  prior
          notice of its introduction published in Government Gazette  No
          26447 of 9 June 2004.]


     Introduction and referral to the Ad hoc Committee on  Home  Affairs
     of the National Assembly, as well as referral to the Joint  Tagging
     Mechanism (JTM) for classification in terms of Joint Rule  160,  on
     10 June 2004.


     In terms of Joint Rule 154 written views on the  classification  of
     the Bill may be submitted to  the  Joint  Tagging  Mechanism  (JTM)
     within three parliamentary working days.

TABLINGS

National Council of Provinces

1. The Chairperson

 Correspondence from the MEC  for  Developmental  Local  Government  and
 Housing in North West regarding the intervention in  the  Mamusa  Local
 Municipality, in terms of section  139(4)(a)(b)  of  the  Constitution,
 1996 (Act No 108 of 1996).
 Referred to the Select Committee on Local Government and Administration
 for consideration and report.