WEDNESDAY, 7 MARCH 2007

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                PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL ASSEMBLY

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The House met at 15:06.

The Speaker took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.

ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS - see col 000.

QUESTIONS FOR ORAL REPLY

                   SOCIAL SERVICES AND GOVERNANCE
                              Cluster 2

MINISTERS:

    Outcome of inquiry into alleged blacklisting of commentators

1. Ms M Smuts (DA) asked the Minister of Communications:

   Whether the Chief Executive Officer of the SA Broadcasting Corporation announced at the conclusion of the inquiry into the alleged blacklisting of commentators that the inquiry had shown that there was a “case to answer” by both a certain announcer (name furnished) and a certain news MD (name furnished) and that both would be submitted to disciplinary proceedings; if so, (a) what steps have been taken in this regard and (b) what was the outcome in each case? N354E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS (On behalf of the Minister): Madam Speaker, we must express an apology on behalf of the Minister, who was unable to be here.

The response to the question posed by hon member Ms Smuts is as follows. The Group CEO of the SABC tabled the findings of the Sisulu commission to the SABC Board. After deliberating on the matter, the SABC Board decided in the case of announcer Mr John Perlman, that he should be counselled by the Group CEO and cautioned that if he aired organisational issues again in public, without exhausting internal remedies, sterner action would be taken. Effectively what was meant by sterner action was that there would be a combination of counselling and a verbal warning.

In the case of Group Executive of News and Current affairs, Dr Snuki Zikalala, the board decided that he should be given a verbal warning, jointly by the Group CEO and the chairman of the board, in respect of some of the issues raised in the Sisulu commission report, which were indeed serious and certainly unacceptable to the board, that he be instructed to co-operate in the remedial steps that were recommended by the commission and that he be warned that should the conduct in question be found to occur in future, stronger action would be taken.

Both these actions were duly and separately conveyed to the two employees in November 2006.

Ms M SMUTS: Madam Speaker, would the hon the Deputy Minister agree that what he has just described is not even a mild rebuke towards Mr Zikalala and that, in fact, any pretence at disciplinary proceedings against him was pre-judged when the SABC Board expressed its full confidence in him the day before it announced that disciplinary steps would occur against both Mr Perlman and Mr Zikalala?

Whereas, does he not agree that there are, in fact, grounds for dismissal of Mr Zikalala in the findings of the inquiry to the effect that he practiced the arbitrary and improper exclusion of individual commentators and that this impermissibly narrowed the range of use available to South Africans? That is a clear infringement of the SABC’s editorial policy, if not the law. If those are not grounds for dismissal, I don’t know what it is.

In the circumstances, would you not agree that this issue has been, firstly, pre-judged, and, secondly, that what has been delivered to Mr Zikalala is the mildest of rebukes, whereas we have lost Mr Perlman, who has gone down for doing his professional duty? [Applause.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS: Madam Speaker, I think that we do have a fundamental problem in dealing with this issue, and this is that the hon member of the opposition - and I have made this comment before - has consistently made statements concerning the SABC that purport to interfere in terms of the internal management processes of the SABC. [Interjections.] She always accuses the executive and the Minister, in particular, that the Minister should not interfere in the internal affairs of the SABC, yet she does.

I think that we are governed by the principle that what happens inside the SABC is a matter for the SABC Board, and the board has to decide in its wisdom and it is the Board to which Parliament entrusts the management of the SABC. The members of the SABC Board are not selected by the Minister. The members of the board are selected by this Parliament. [Interjections.] They are the public custodians of the right to good expression in that institution, and they certainly are accountable for the management of the internal processes of the board.

So it would be entirely incorrect for the Minister or me - or any one of us in government - to make a value judgment on the correctness or incorrectness of the kind of disciplinary measures that the board has chosen to adopt in view of the fact that it has the benefit of a commission that thoroughly investigated the matter and made certain recommendations. On top of it all, the SABC is on record as having said that it has accepted all the recommendations of the commission and that, indeed, has acted on them.

In the case of Mr John Perlman himself, I think that none of us has a point of difference on the quality of that particular journalist; on the integrity of that journalist and on the value that he brings to the public broadcaster. We are very, very clear about that. The fact that he has been lost to the SABC is something that one should not be gleeful about. I think it is sad that we had to lose a respected journalist of that calibre, but unfortunately the situation we have before us is that he chose to resign, and so we have lost him. That is a fact that is delivered to us. It is his choice. It was not the desire of the SABC Board that he should have resigned, but he chose to do so, because of his own position in that he would be better off doing something different.

On the matter of Mr Snuki Zikalala, the SABC Board was very, very clear that it would not countenance such conduct again; regarding the conduct the commission made statements on. I think that, at best, we should leave it at that and not interfere in the internal processes of the management of the board as we have the greatest respect for their integrity and to which Parliament has given the right to manage that institution to benefit our people. Thank you. [Applause.] Mr K K KHUMALO: Madam Speaker, Parliament appoints the board of the SA Broadcasting Corporation through the Portfolio Committee on Communication. The recommendations of the Sisulu commission will also be tabled again for a second time before the Portfolio Committee on Communication on 16 March

1. What is fundamental is the fact that freedom of expression has not been violated by this particular recommendation. Secondly, the multiplicity of views is also contained in terms of what the corporation is supposed to be doing.

What I need to check with you, Deputy Minister, is whether in terms of the recommendations there has been any corporate governance violation. Secondly, has the corporation suffered when it comes to this fundamental independence in terms of freedom of expression and the multiplicity of views? As far as we are concerned, as the ANC, we think that that is more serious than what the opposition is raising. Thank you, Madam Speaker. [Applause.]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS: Madam Speaker, I can only but agree with the hon member that we have to respect the integrity of the management processes of the SABC Board. We have put them there on the board to do a job, and we must give them the right and freedom to do what they think is necessary. Thank you. [Applause.]

Mnu V B NDLOVU: Somlomo, mhlonishwa Phini likaNgqongqoshe Wezokuxhumana, umbuzo wokuqala uthi, ngabe ibhodi yamncoma yini uZikalala ngaphambi kokuthi imphenye? Owesibili umbuzo uthi, uthini umhlonishwa uma ethi uphenyo luthole ukuthi “possibly” kungaba uyena? [Ubuwelewele.] Impela ngikhuluma naye umhlonishwa. [Ubuwelewele.] Ngabe akezwa ukuthi ngithini? Somlomo ngibona sengathi umhlonishwa iPhini likaNgongqoshe unenkinga … (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[Mr V B NDLOVU: Madam Speaker, hon Deputy Minister of Communications, the first question is, did the board express confidence in Mr Zikalala before investigating him? The second question is, what does the hon Deputy Minister mean when he says, “the investigation found out that ‘possibly’ it might be him”? [Interjections.] Yes, I am definitely talking to the hon Deputy Minister. [Interjections.] Doesn’t he understand what I am saying? Madam Speaker, it seems like the hon Deputy Minister has a problem …]

The SPEAKER: Let’s give him half a minute to ensure that he can be with you.

Mnu V B NDLOVU: Ngiyabonga, Somlomo. Umbuzo wokuqala ubuthe: Ibhodi ayizange imncome yini uMnu Zikalala ngaphambi kokuthi imphenye; ayizange isho yini ukuthi uziphethe kahle futhi ungumuntu okahle owaziyo umsebenzi? Owesibili umbuzo uthi, njengoba ngizwe umhlonishwa ephendula ilungu elihloniphekile uNk Dene Smuts, lapho ethe uphenyo lwathola ukuthi ku- “possible” ukuthi uMnu Zikalala wakwenza lokho, u-“possible” lo kanti usho ukuthini ngempela? Ngabe usho ukuthi wakwenza noma akakwenzanga lokho? (Translation of isiZulu paragraph follows.)

[Mr V B NDLOVU: Thank you, Madam Speaker. The first question was: Did the board express confidence in Mr Zikalala before investigating him? Did the board say his behaviour is good and he is somebody who knows the job? The second question is as a result of the response that the hon Deputy Minister gave to the hon member, Ms Dene Smuts, when he said the investigation found that it was “possible” that Mr Zikalala had done that. What does “possible” really mean? Does it mean that he had or had not done that?]

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS: Madam Speaker, let me just apologise to the hon member, because I was struggling with the microphone here and I was unable to listen earlier on.

Let me just say that the board decided that he should be given a verbal warning, jointly by the Group CEO and the chairman of the board. Also, it does appear from that particular decision that the board found it necessary to caution Mr Zikalala on some of his actions and, therefore, took that decision. So, it cannot be that the board had condoned this conduct that the commission found, in practice, might have been unacceptable. So, it’s clear from the reply of the SABC Board that they found those aspects of the conduct unacceptable and objectionable, and, therefore, sought to caution Mr Zikalala.

The matter about whether the board expressed confidence in Mr Zikalala before they had adjudicated on the report of the commission … [Interjections.]

Ms M SMUTS: On 12 October.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS: I think, again, you are dealing with an internal management issue, because if you were sitting on a management board and one of your employees was being criticised for particular conduct, the subject of which a commission of inquiry had been specifically appointed to look into the details, surely it would be improper for you to go out and say that you had no confidence in your employee, even before that commission had conveyed its findings?

The SABC Board has to have confidence in its employees, and until it is proven that their conduct has been such that it warrants some disciplinary action, it has to take the position that it has confidence in the staff it has employed. Mr Zikalala is not a junior member of staff; he is a senior employee of the organisation. [Interjections.] There is nothing wrong in expressing confidence. But, certainly, we would not respond the same if the commission had found that some of his conduct was unacceptable and then the SABC Board went on to say: “No, no, despite that, we still have the fullest confidence in him.”

Instead they sought to correct that aspect of his conduct that was unacceptable. We must remember that what the commission found was that there was no policy on the part of the SABC Board that said that some of these commentators should not be brought before the board. There is no such policy, but there may have been an error in the practice. That is where Mr Zikalala was cautioned. Thank you. [Applause.]

Ms M SMUTS: To the hon Deputy Minister: Is it the case - yes or no - that the Department of Communications, upon publication by the Sowetan of allegations that four commentators at that stage were being blacklisted, sent a request to the SABC saying: “Now, kindly advise us, is this blacklisting occurring: yes or no; if so, why?”

I consider that proper conduct, and I am responding to his nonsensical allegations of interference. You yourself prompted this inquiry. The department sent that question. The SABC responded in the form of a statement which was misleading, found so by the inquiry. Mr Perlman contradicted that statement, and the rest is now history.

It was, in fact, the perfectly proper inquiry by your own department as to the existence or otherwise of blacklisting that led to the inquiry – which was an excellent thing – that has told us that there was censorship at the SABC and that now leaves us in a situation in which the people who practised this censorship are still there, and those who revealed it have gone.

The SPEAKER: Hon Smuts, you’ve run out of your minute and you haven’t asked a question. I didn’t hear a question there, but if the hon Deputy Minister wants to say something, please go ahead.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS: Madam Speaker, I don’t see the question in that statement. [Interjections.] I think the hon member is trying to suggest that it is the Department of Communications that initiated this inquiry.

Now, the hon member entrusts the department with the responsibility of oversight over this institution.

Ms M SMUTS: I don’t! Absolutely not.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS: If you don’t, then why do you ask us the question? I think because we feel compelled … [Interjections.]

The SPEAKER: Hon Smuts, please take your seat and let the Deputy Minister finish.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS: If there is a public statement about an institution that falls under our governance on the allegations that emerged in the particular article that she referred to, I think it is the right of the Minister to ask the board if there is any truth in the allegation.

Ms M SMUTS: I agree.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF COMMUNICATIONS: You do agree with that. Then, that is what may have been done in this particular instance. So, if you agree with that, then I can’t see the reason for your question. Thank you.

   Position of Department of Education on mother-tongue education

1. Adv A H Gaum (ANC) asked the Minister of Education:

   What is her department’s position with regard to mother-tongue education, with specific reference to a certain high school (name furnished)? N336E

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Thank you, Madam Speaker. The reply is as follows. The department’s policy on language in education encourages learners to choose to learn in their mother tongue. Learners in public schools - and by that, really, in brackets we might put parents - have a right to choose any of the 11 official languages as a language of learning and teaching and as a subject from Grade 3 onwards.

We also have in the policy the intention of promoting the increased learning and utilisation of the indigenous previously neglected languages of South Africa. The department, therefore, in its policy encourages all learners to have studied an African language for three years by the end of Grade 9. This particular aspect is taking a long time to be taken up by our various provinces, but I am pleased that the Limpopo province and the Western Cape have indeed acted in this particular area of policy.

On the matter of the high school whose name the member furnished to me, the matter, given that there is a ruling pending, is sub judice. I will – and offer to the member - come back to address the House on this matter once the case is finalised. All I can say to the hon member is that as far as I am aware at this time learners in that school continue to be taught in a language of their choice.

Adv A H GAUM: Thank you, Speaker. Minister, in a multicultural society parallel-medium schools can contribute towards nation-building. However, these schools require much more physical and human resources than single- medium schools to function properly and to prevent the situation in which they are forced to become single-medium English institutions.

Firstly, is the Minister willing to provide the substantial additional resources required to encourage schools to become and to stay parallel- medium institutions? Secondly, were the steps taken against the Ermelo school worthwhile in view of the fact that with the first quarter almost at its end only 19 learners requiring education in English have applied to be admitted to this school? Also, would the Minister regard it to be reasonably practicable for a school, in terms of the Constitution, to provide education in the official language of choice to only 19 learners and not the 113 that were originally mentioned? Thirdly, under which circumstances would the Minister support the establishment and continued existence under the Constitution of single-medium Afrikaans schools? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Madam Speaker, I will not reply to the particular matters with respect to the school. As I have said, I will come back to it once the matter has been concluded and we have the judge’s ruling.

With respect to the matter of parallel-medium schools, it is, of course, not the Minister of Education who provides resources for schools, but provinces that have the funds allocated to them by their provincial treasuries and they determine the allocation. Of course, they should ensure that schools have sufficient resources to teach children in our schools adequately, as well as learning and teaching support materials.

As far as I am aware, every person who studied teaching up to the year 2005 actually anticipated, in the degree that they took, that they would be bilingual in terms of their ability to teach. So, the notion that a multilingual student body somehow is an impediment to the ability to teach is not confirmed by the reality of the qualifications offered by our universities. So, clearly, greater resources: yes; but also full utilisation of all educators available to the children of South Africa.

With respect to the realisation of single-medium schools, of course, our Constitution says that where practicable this should be allowed for and supported, and it does occur in many schools where there are significant numbers of children who choose a single language as their medium. Indeed, they are able to continue with their education.

However, when you have a context in which there may be children who have the right to education, you then have to look at how you weigh this and integrate it with the correct constitutional provision concerning the provision of single-medium schools. So, in terms of the children’s right to education, surely the hon member would agree, cannot be trumped by the provision which relies on reasonable practicability. Thank you.

Mev D VAN DER WALT: Agb Speaker, ek gaan my vraag in Afrikaans aan die Minister vra. U, Minister, is geboekstaaf dat u ten gunste van moedertaalonderrig is en ook veeltaligheid ondersteun. Indien so, watter aksies het u departement geneem om moedertaalonderrig, ongeag of dit Sotho, Venda, Xhosa, Zulu of enige een van ons ander amptelike tale is, werklik tot op datum te implementeer? (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Mrs D VAN DER WALT: Hon Speaker, I am going to put my question to the Minister in Afrikaans. Minister, you are on record that you are in favour of mother-tongue education and that you also support multilingualism. If this is the case, what steps have your department taken to date to really implement mother-tongue education, irrespective of whether it is Sotho, Venda, Xhosa, Zulu or any of our other official languages?]

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Madam Speaker, as I have attempted to indicate to members with respect to the school level in South Africa, the provision of resources for the implementation of a national policy, which sets a national norm and standard, depends on action by provinces. I made reference to two provinces which have already taken action with respect to what the member called vernacular languages, the indigenous languages of black persons in this country.

Limpopo as well as the Western Cape have provided support for the teaching of IsiXhosa in the Western Cape, and Sepedi and Sesotho in the Limpopo province. So, we have positive action there. And, of course, I shouldn’t forget KwaZulu-Natal; my colleague there would be very angry, because IsiZulu is also being offered to young people in that province. So, there has been action.

The next layer is, of course, higher education, and there it is entirely my responsibility. With respect to that, there are institutions that offer dual-medium teaching. There, what we have done, with the support of vice chancellors, is to begin to calculate the cost of adding a language of teaching to the university. From our side, we are going to be providing additional resources from the new financial year to support universities in implementing this dual-medium policy or multilingual policies. These are still new steps that are being taken by higher education institutions in our country, but we are committed to ensuring that we do support them.

Our reliance, however, in the final analysis, is on what the schools do, and, if the schools have respect for the development of a multilingual character in our schools, then certainly the higher levels of education would also develop such an approach.

Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Hon Minister, mother-tongue education may prove to be very disempowering in the end in the sense that the economy and, in fact, all other means of production, are still to a very large extent controlled by both English and Afrikaans-speaking sections of our population.

The question is: Does the Minister envisage a time when companies and other businesses may be asked or compelled to include in their correspondence African languages, including interviews, so that those who might have been taught in their mother tongue compete successfully? I thank you.

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Madam Speaker, it is important for me to indicate, through you to the hon member, that it is not my belief that education in the mother tongue should be access to one language only. Our policy encourages multilingualism and, therefore, proficiency in a language other than the one which is your mother tongue is in my view absolutely important.

The notion, which all of us are propounding, that somehow if we use our mother tongue we are competing with English merely shows how colonised we are intellectually. The Afrikaans-speaking community in South Africa was able to wield power utilising Afrikaans.

Why would it be impossible not to wield power, because we don’t want to repeat some of those negatives - and I’ve posed this in the public domain - for our intellectuals, who are schooled in language development through Afrikaans development, to assist in the further development of other languages in this country? When did the Afrikaner become afraid of the English, I ask?

So, hon member, the use of the mother tongue doesn’t mean drowning in English; it means acquisition of the opportunity for full cognitive development alongside acquisition of other languages that are available, both in our society and worldwide. [Applause.]

Rev K R J MESHOE: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Hon Minister, the ACDP believes that children who begin their education in their mother tongue make a better start and continue to perform better than those for whom school starts with a new language.

A practical problem we are anticipating is that some languages do not have the range of vocabulary and concepts to be useful beyond the early stages of schooling without additional qualifications. In view of this, what will the government do to ensure that children do not spend more time learning newly invented words than learning the subject at hand? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Madam Speaker, it is possible to develop vocabulary, and it has been done worldwide. In fact, the proven research findings that the Rev Meshoe now claims as the ACDP’s knowledge do, in fact, indicate that it is better for children to begin in their mother tongue.

This notion began from Rousseau right through to researchers today, so well before the time of the ACDP, and the ACDP should not claim it as their knowledge. You develop concepts. Language grows through utilisation in a range of settings. Language adapts. “Coup de grâce״ is French, but it is used in the Oxford English Dictionary as part of English expression. So, the notion that language is some immutable thing in society is absolutely wrong.

In Setswana, you speak of electricity as “motlaxase”. How do you explain how you got to that particular conception? So language is able to grow; it’s able to be developed. The way you do this is through your higher education institutions which need to be dynamically evolved in the process of developing these languages which have previously been neglected.

We are working with teachers, for example, in pursuit of our mother- tongue beginning policy to write material for children from native speakers of the languages, and we are publishing these materials with the assistance of the United States Agency for International Development, and placing them in our foundation classes so that our children have access to material which is drawn from people who are actually competent in the languages that we intend our young children to use.

So, work is being done, and you use the speakers of the language and your academics to assist you in developing the concepts, the vocabulary and the methodology. [Applause.]

Adequacy of institutional and human resource funding arrangements for
                     understaffed municipalities

1. Mr P F Smith (IFP) asked the Minister for Provincial and Local Government:

   Whether, with regard to the research conducted by the Municipal Demarcation Board (details furnished), institutional and human resource funding arrangements for understaffed municipalities are adequate for them to perform their developmental obligations and to properly service their residents; if not, what has the government done or what does it intend doing to address this matter; if so, what are the relevant details? N374E

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Madam Speaker, the answer to the question from the hon Smith is as follows. The Ministry and department have taken note of the research conducted by the Municipal Demarcation Board into this matter. The challenges and issues they have identified continue to feature in our deliberations relating to the capacitation of the local government sphere and to structuring of the equitable share.

Currently, from a funding perspective, municipalities are funded from a subsidy sourced through the institutional support component of the local government equitable share. The subsidy supplements the funding of a municipality for administration and governance costs, including the cost of councillors’ allowances for their legislative and oversight roles.

However, the subsidy does not fully fund the entire administrative and governance costs of a municipality, as these are considered to be the primary responsibility of each municipality. Institutional support, through the administration of each municipality and that over and above the base costs, caused administration and governance to go up in terms of the size of the population.

Municipalities, on the other hand, are also assisted financially from the national fiscus through the municipal systems improvement grant, which is meant to augment institutional assistance and capacity.

Lastly, these mechanisms are meant to assist all the municipalities in view of the low revenue base within some municipalities. It will take some time before the ratios are brought down to acceptable levels. Steps are being taken to improve the revenue base through, for example local economic development initiatives.

Mr P F SMITH: Thank you, Speaker. Thank you, Deputy Minister. For the benefit of colleagues here who don’t understand what the question is, because the figures have been taken out unilaterally by Parliament, let me say that the board’s figures are the following. If you look at municipal staff as a ratio to the number of households in a municipality, the average nationally is one staff member serving just over 2 000 households in a municipality. But this varies from 1 to 200 households to 1 to over 10 000 households.

We think that’s a completely untenable situation. In fact, if you apply the same sort of logic to, say, education - I don’t know what the exact figures are – a staff:learner ratio of 1:30 is the norm, but in one school year you had 1:1, while in another school year you 1:1 000, you would have a crisis on your hands. You’d have parents and pupils marching to get this remedied.

But, for some reason, for local government we seem to think it is acceptable. There is an institutional component – it is true - in the equitable share formula, but it does not solve the problem for these municipalities.

So, my question is: Is it true that there are no norms and standards governing this matter at all from the national government; and, if that is true, what does government intend doing about it?

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Firstly, we have to acknowledge, as a department, the work of the demarcation board. Secondly, there are financial programmes to assist and capacitate the affected municipalities. What we also have is many grants that we give to municipalities, and different programmes. We have those grants. What we are saying is that the process is still taking place, and we need to be patient with the process being run by the demarcation board. Thank you.

Mr W P DOMAN: Madam Speaker, the demarcation board also pointed out that the municipalities were failing to appoint officials to serve the public. That’s why you get this big ratio. They found that they had underspent on their salary budgets, although those salary budgets are restricted to 35% of operational expenditure.

I want to ask the hon Deputy Minister: Doesn’t she agree that these municipalities are failing South Africans by not appointing these officials and are often using this money on other luxuries like mayoral cars and overseas trips?

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Madam Speaker, I fail to understand, because through Project Consolidate, the department had actually tried its best to make these interventions.

What we have also done as a department was to identify and call for experts in the various fields, like engineering, to come in and assist local government with their capacity problems. What we are saying is that it is not true that nothing is happening at local government level. There are those skills. There are many retired engineers that we have called in, and recently we had 99 students trained to assist and make these necessary interventions at local government level.

It is not true that nothing is being done about the officials. There are training programmes that are taking place in order to assist with this intervention and to capacitate municipalities.

Mrs C DUDLEY: Hon Deputy Minister, concerns that municipalities risk losing gains of stability and service delivery are contained in a report by engineers seconded to struggling municipalities. With many of the posts vacant, the project engineers found that there were no full-time staff to mentor, and that they were forced to do many of the projects themselves instead of transferring the skills.

As the report advises, will government urgently review its salary structure to avoid a situation of training staff simply to lose them to the private sector? Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Hon member, I’d like to say that we have learnt key lessons. I don’t recall having that report by these deployed engineers, because they are accountable to us. We’ve identified them; they did not identify themselves. Therefore, any report would come to us, instead of going just to the public. This is so that we can make a proper assessment as to whether these interventions are in fact working.

The lesson we’ve learned is that at local government level there’s a possibility that urgent attention should be given to the following areas in sustainable infrastructure development: the appointment of senior municipal personnel; the development of appropriate and meaningful technical organisational structures; the development of flexible and appropriate compensation systems for technical personnel and improvement in revenue management. We promise that we will get there with these identified professionals.

Mr I D MOGASE: Madam Speaker, today South Africa is the toast of Africa and the world. The building industry is booming and the investors are optimistic. But despite challenges in service delivery, many areas throughout the country are experiencing development and service delivery.

My follow-up question to the hon Deputy Minister is: Is the Deputy Minister satisfied with the majority of local economic development strategies adopted by municipalities in terms of their alignment and consistency with municipal integrated development plans? Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Madam Speaker, it is not for us to decide whether the local economic strategies at local level are the correct ones. What happens is that these go into local areas and the people on the ground themselves decide what the best strategies are. It is through the IDPs that the decision is taken, and that particular municipality then agrees with the strategy. But we can’t actually decide for the municipalities.

Ability of Public Service to strengthen democracy in accelerating service delivery

1. Mr A J Nyambi (ANC) asked the Minister for the Public Service and Administration:

   Whether the Public Service is in good stead to drive the agenda to strengthen democracy in accelerating service delivery; if not, what are the challenges in this regard; if so, what are the relevant details? N341E

The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Madam Speaker, I’d like to thank the questioner for the particular question that’s before us.

I think first and foremost it’s necessary to say that since 1994 we’ve prioritised transforming Public Service delivery, and this is reflected in the Batho Pele White Paper of 1997. The White Paper says:

… a transformed South African Public Service will be judged by one criterion above all: its effectiveness in delivering services which meet the basic needs of all South African citizens. Public services are not a privilege … they are an … expectation.

So, clearly, improving service delivery is the ultimate goal of the Public Service transformation policy.

Have there been achievements? I think there’s a need for us to state very clearly and unequivocally that when we look at institution-building and management we have come a long way. We’ve amalgamated and re-established public services in the sense that from 14 disparate public services we’ve built a single Public Service, and a transformed one at that.

So, significant progress has been made in advancing public sector reforms in addition to the amalgamation that I’ve referred to in bringing it all into one service. Since 1994 we’ve seen one of the world’s most far- reaching programmes of public service reform and transformation in our own country, resulting in services being extended to millions of our citizens - from basic services to increased efficiency in revenue collection, and a very positive environment for growth and economic development. We see this in the trajectory that has been identified in the Reconstruction and Development Programme, through the Growth, Employment and Redistribution programme and now the Accelerated Shared Growth Initiative for South Africa.

Do we have any intention and do we see the capacity to accelerate service delivery? Yes, we do. Are there challenges? Indeed there are challenges, because if you transform so large a machinery, it does not go without its challenges, and there are challenges around capacity.

Hence, as government, we have a very clear focus on capacity assessments, and these are being dealt with systematically. Under those assessments we deal with skills assessment; we look at skills development and very specific interventions in this regard; we look at capacity-building programmes that target the officials at different levels of the Public Service from the level of management all the way down, or starting from the lowest level official going up.

We’re also looking at the challenges around integrated service delivery. We’re dealing with improving and deepening planning as well as ensuring that we have a sound, government-wide monitoring and evaluation system in place. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Mr A J NYAMBI: Madam Speaker, I’d like to thank the hon Minister. The question has been clearly answered, so I don’t have a follow-up. We’ll make sure that we maximise the vigorous oversight in the various departments. Thank you.

Dr U ROOPNARAIN: Madam Speaker, the hon Minister spoke about the skills deficit in the Public Service. Another challenge is also the growing corruption in the Public Service. How can we ensure, with the principles of ubuntu, that corruption is curbed in the Public Service? Thank you very much.

The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Thank you, Madam Speaker, and through you to the hon Roopnarain. I think we need to be careful to simply look at corruption in the Public Service in isolation from corruption that is pervasive in society as a whole. Also, we should see our interventions in this regard in relation to a societal response.

I agree with the hon Roopnarain that we need to look at the kinds of values that should and must underpin not just the Public Service but society as a whole, and hence our endeavour to build a national integrity system.

In this regard it is not alien to us to embrace the value of ubuntu - elsewhere in Africa we may call it ujamaa[familyhood] - which is very clearly a central value that is captured in our Constitution, not necessarily through the use of the term ubuntu, but in the need to ensure that we pursue values that talk about the integrity of people, obviously in such a manner that it does not allow for the abuse of power or authority by any one person or the misuse of status or position for self-enrichment. Finally, through ubuntu, no citizen should at any point feel compelled to pay for a service that they have a right to, because public servants are there to serve the community and ours is to ensure that we put in place the kind of value system that is and furthers ubuntu, which comes from our past as part of the traditional values of our country and our continent and that must be reflected in our work ethic, in the integrity with which we take things forward. I want to conclude by saying that this must not be limited to the public sector, but be pervasive in all sectors of society.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): Order! Hon members, please lower your voices.

Mnr K J MINNIE: Agb Voorsitter, agb Minister, “whether the Public Service is in good stead” – dis ’n ope vraag of die Staatsdiens, met die oog op versnelde dienslewering, in ’n goed genoeg toestand is. Kyk ’n mens na diensleweringtyd, met ander woorde die tyd wat dit neem om diens te lewer, met verwysing na departemente soos die Departement van Binnelandse Sake en ons lisensie-afdelings in provinsies, dan ontstaan daar groot twyfel.

Die Minister bevraagteken syfers wat die DA ter tafel lê oor vakante poste in die Staatsdiens, asook beramings wat uit die jaarverslae vir 2005-06 kom. Dit het nou tyd geword dat ons die feite oor vakatures oor die hele spektrum van die Staatsdiens bekend maak, van skoonmaker tot departementshoof.

Indien volledige syfers nie beskikbaar is nie, is my vraag aan die Minister of sy bereid sal wees om ’ n oudit te laat doen om die feite oor vakatures in die Staatsdiens te bekom. Indien nie, waarom nie? (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mr K J MINNIE: Hon Chairperson, hon Minister, “whether the Public Service is in good stead” – it is an open question, whether the Public Service, in view of accelerated service delivery, is in good stead. When one looks at service delivery time, in other words, the time that it takes to deliver a service, with reference to departments such as the Department of Home Affairs and our licence departments in provinces, then a big question arises.

The Minister is questioning the figures that were tabled by the DA with regard to vacant posts in the Public Service, as well as estimates obtained from the annual reports for 2005-06. The time has now come that we make known the facts with regard to vacancies across the full spectrum of the Public Service, from cleaner to department head.

If the total figures are not available, then my question to the Minister is whether she will be prepared to do an audit in order to obtain the facts with regard to vacancies in the Public Service. If not, why not?]

The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Thank you very much, Chairperson. Hon Minnie, are you trying to claim some easy victories once again?

I think as government we’ve made it very clear that it is our business and intention to establish exactly what the skills and competency levels are in the Public Service. In terms of vacancy levels, we have those figures from Persal. There’s no question about that. We are also looking at matching the figures that are on Persal against what is in the personnel expenditure budget.

In that regard as well, if you bothered to check the statement we issued after the lekgotla, you would have been aware of the fact that we are indeed looking very closely at ensuring … No, not looking very closely – we’ve actually instituted, since July of last year, a procedure in which all Ministers, when looking at their organograms, make submissions to the Minister for the Public Service and Administration so that we closely look at the organogram against the strategic plans and business plans.

Part of this is to ensure that there is a signing off on organograms and a placing of that information on our information systems as government, so that there are alignments between the organograms in departments and the budgets that are available. This is because right now the discrepancy around figures relates, amongst other things, to the discrepancies as to what’s on the organograms vis-à-vis what’s in the personnel expenditure and Persal itself.

In terms of improving service delivery, there is no question that there are differences, or shall I rather say, that we do have problems within the Public Service and different levels of service delivery.

I want to give you one good example. The Government Employees Medical Scheme, Gems, at this point in time has 100 000 plus principal members. If you were a member of Gems, which, sadly, you cannot be at this point in time, and you phoned a call centre, as a result of their having your information, any one of the call centre operators would be able to respond to you with all the details concerning your particular file, the information you require, etc. Turnaround time there is excellent, and that’s a reflection of very strong management at the head of that public entity. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): Order!

The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: You don’t get that with any other medical scheme at this point, and this is a government employees׳ medical scheme. [Time expired.] Mr H B CUPIDO: Chairperson, hon Minister, in order for the public visiting government offices to be served by well-trained public officials, could the Minister give this House the assurance that in order to be well understood the public will be privileged to make their enquiries and complete documentation in their mother tongue and that they will receive an answer they will be able to understand, because surely communication in a mother tongue must be an important factor in service delivery.

The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Hon Chair, this is one thing that we aspire to. We cannot guarantee at this particular point in time that any one of us in this House can speak all 11 official languages. What we are aspiring to is to have public servants who are able to speak more than one of the predominant regional languages in the areas in which they are.

We have taken a decision, as part of our commitment to the roll-out of Batho Pele something like three, four years ago, that we would encourage a greater increase in proficiency in multilingualism in order to ensure that we are able to serve the public in a multiplicity of languages, but we do not guarantee something that we know is not possible, because, hon member, other than two languages, I’m not sure which others you speak. Thank you very much.

Mr M T LIKOTSI: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon Minister, with the exception of managerial and administrative skills, are there programmes in place to help to change the attitude of public servants towards the citizens, because we perceive – or it is actually what is happening – public servants as not having a sense of urgency. They are not caring, and this actually destabilises the whole process of providing service to the citizens. I thank you.

The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson. I’m sure, hon member, you are not suggesting that it’s every public servant who has that attitude. I think we’re talking about the rotten apples in the barrel who tend to spread and infect the whole barrel.

But yes, indeed, we do have programmes that are specifically targeted at changing the attitude and culture that have been prevalent in the Public Service. I think you should remember that we come out of an old public service that we had to start and started transforming 12 or 13 years ago. If you look at the size of the Public Service – this colossus machinery - it is not automatically going to transform overnight. Hence, right now we are involved in what we call a massification programme by Samdi, the SA Management Development Institute, that looks at the induction of 100 000 public servants a year.

The induction and reorientation is precisely to influence attitudes and cultural approach, as well as specifically reorienting, steeping our public servants in an understanding and appreciation of the Constitution, the values in the Constitution and Chapter 10 of this Constitution that reflects the very principles that should govern the Public Service, so Samdi is leading that programme. That programme won’t be centrally led; it will be decentralised and in many instances departments will run it, but we are looking at a core curriculum to take this forward.

We also have a very specific programme called the Batho Pele Frontline Service Delivery Programme, which also looks at the attitude, approach and demeanour of public servants as they interface with the community and the public. So, yes, we are working on that, but the big push right now is to try to influence and impact quite greatly on the Public Service.

               Proposed scrapping of VAT on medicines

1. Mr G R Morgan (DA) asked the Minister of Health:

   (1) Whether, in light of a recommendation by her department ’s Pricing Committee in 2006 that value-added tax (VAT) on medicines be scrapped, she has recommenced discussions with the Minister of Finance about this issue; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details;

   (2) whether scrapping VAT on medicines on the essential drugs list will have an impact on the cost of medicines in the public sector; if not, what is the position in this regard; if so, what are the relevant details? N352E

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Sihlalo, impendulo yelungu elihloniphekile imi kanje: [Chairperson, the response to the hon member’s question is as follows:]

In her answer to this part of the question last year, the Minister of Health indicated to the hon member that she had not recommended discussions with the Minister of Finance on the removal of VAT on medicine.

She also indicated that the National Treasury had noted the VAT issue and that the Minister of Finance had indicated that the correct policy was not to zero-rate medicines. The issue of VAT on medicine prices has been subjected to rigorous analysis by an international panel, and the Minister of Finance is satisfied with the present status and hence no changes are envisaged at this time.

With regard to the second part of the question, the Department of Health does not believe that scrapping VAT would make medicines cheaper in the public sector. VAT is only one of the factors affecting costs. Other factors also come into play, such as the manufacturers׳ cost recovery strategy, to ensure return on investment, as well as global market forces.

Only when these factors have been dealt with in our pricing structures through, for example, the current international benchmarking exercise and other similar measures, can we then understand the impact of VAT on the cost of essential medicines.

Mr G R MORGAN: Thank you, hon Deputy Minister. I would hope that the Department of Health would take on this issue and not defend the views of the Treasury on this, no matter what their views are. This is because, certainly, the government frequently trumps its regressive credentials, but continues to implement many policies that are, in fact, progressive. VAT on medicines is one of them, because it targets people who are sick. The incumbent Minister, Dr Tshabalala-Msimang, said in January 2004 that she would be introducing measures to reduce medicine prices by 50%, but the target so far has exclusively been on the private sector, particularly pharmacies.

Now, a study by the World Health Organisation shows that taxes on medicines do provide minimal income to the government, but are nevertheless passed on to sick people. Therefore, hon Deputy Minister, in principle do you agree that it is necessary for the government to play its part in reducing the cost of medicines by reducing VAT? Secondly, would you continue to champion, from a Health department point of view and not a Treasury point of view, the need to reduce VAT irrespective of the other components of medicine pricing? [Time expired.] The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Thank you, hon member. Maybe I should start by reminding this hon member that it is the ANC-led government that has taken measures since 1994 to lower the cost of health care. Among the measures that we have taken are to provide free primary health care for pregnant mothers and children under six years of age. We are engaging with the pharmaceutical industry and not just the pharmacists. The pharmacists are but one part in the supply chain.

We are engaging with the industry in an attempt to lower the cost of medicines, which, unfortunately as the member knows, is taking longer than we had anticipated. But we are also working towards putting in place the policy that will see a sharing of resources in the private health sector.

We are making good progress on the issue of the social health insurance, which essentially aims to increase access to medical cover for the poor. So, the price of medicines per se is one issue that we have been engaging in from the start, to try to see that prices are reduced.

VAT alone is not the measure that will help us solve this problem. As I have said, it depends on what the price is, from the manufacturer to the pharmacist and to the supplier. In this regard, I also want to inform the member that when we decide, as the public health sector, which supplier we are going to give a tender to, it is based on the price that they offer us, and at times we have been able to achieve as low as 40% of the price. So, we have engaged in a number of exercises to try to mitigate the cost of health care, including the price of medicines.

I also want to remind the hon member that he must realise that the Minister of Finance cannot just exempt the state from paying VAT on medicines, because the system will be very difficult to administer. Manufacturers and distributors that sell to the state would have to declare how much medicine the state has bought and, therefore, how much VAT exclusion they would have, as opposed to the same medicines they would have sold to the private sector.

So, as you can see, this is a very cumbersome process that our Revenue Service would have to administer. In fact, I would think that we are trying to introduce something that would be very difficult to implement. But indeed this government, led by the ANC, is very committed to lowering the cost of health care. [Time expired.] [Applause.]

Mr A F MADELLA: Chairperson and hon members, please allow me to express our collective appreciation for the eloquent, illuminating reply by our Deputy Minister of Health to the hon G R Morgan.

Hon Deputy Minster, an ongoing challenge of your Ministry is to see to the procurement, as you rightly pointed out, of medicine from the pharmaceutical industry at an affordable price rate for the public sector, in particular the public health sector which services the poorest of the poor.

Hon Deputy Minister, is there perhaps a sense from you that the pharmaceutical industry is using the issue of the scrapping of VAT from medicine as a smokescreen to hide their reluctance to make medicine available to the public health sector and, ultimately, the poorest of the poor at an affordable price? Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: Thank you, hon member, and thank you very much for your congratulations on the answer. This is the ANC policy that I am articulating. I think, indeed, you should thank the ANC for putting in place these kinds of policies.

Indeed, as the ANC, we are concerned about the plight of the poor; we are concerned about the prices of medicines in this country. People have told us that if you go to the UK, you can find exactly the same medicines that we buy here but at a much lower price. So I think all of us, including the opposition, should be working hard to ensure that indeed the manufacturers and the suppliers all work with us.

This is because there is something you can never buy. You can never buy health. When you are sick, what you want is to improve; you want to get better, and if you cannot access health care simply because you cannot afford the cost of health care, all of us must realise that this is a violation of one of the most fundamental of our rights.

In this case, hon member, I would really like to engage, as we have started to do, with the private sector, to say “Yes, it is right for you to make profits, but please think about what happens to poor people when they cannot afford basic health care.”

Section 27 of Chapter 2 of our Constitution says that health is a basic human right. We need everybody to assist us in this. We know that some pharmaceutical industries are actually not keen to sell to the state some of their medicines because they say the state cannot afford the prices. Now that they actually realise this, we think they should ask themselves, “Is it fair to charge so much that even the state cannot afford to pay?” [Applause.]

Mr G R MORGAN: Madam Deputy Minister, it is your own pricing committee that recommended the scrapping of VAT on medicines in 2006, it wasn’t the pharmaceutical companies. Perhaps, as I have said before, it is not necessary for you to defend the Treasury, but to defend those people who are sick in South Africa and need VAT.

What I am asking for is an equitable division. The private sector must do what they can, but so must the public sector. So, I put the question to you again, Madam Deputy Minister: Would you at least seek to engage the Minister of Finance on this issue, because you have said you have not sought discussions with him yet?

The DEPUTY MINISTER OF HEALTH: The reply that I gave you, hon member, is a reply from the Minister of Finance. So the very fact that we have been able to get the reply from him does indicate that we have taken the step to ask him what the situation is, what the implications would be if VAT were to be scrapped. He has given us an answer, and we are satisfied with that answer. He has told us that it would be extremely complicated to say that only those suppliers that sell to the state would then, from our side, not pay VAT, while in the private sector VAT would continue to be paid.

I want to mention to you, hon member, that when the Minister appoints a committee, that committee is meant to look at all the various angles of that issue. The committee then reports to the Minister. It is the responsibility of the Minister, as the person who has been appointed by the President, to have applied her mind. Indeed, she did in this case, even go to the point of speaking to Treasury, and this is the answer that Treasury gave us. We are satisfied with the answer. We are working very hard to lower the prices of medicines, but the scrapping of VAT, at this stage, is not an option.

Steps to ensure reasonable and non-discriminatory fees at educational
                            institutions 38.   Ms M J J Matsomela (ANC) asked the Minister of Education:


  What steps have been taken to ensure that fee increases (a) at higher
  education institutions are not excessive and (b) do not discriminate
  against poor students?                                   N337E

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Thank you, Chairperson. The reply to the question is as follows. With respect to part (a) of the question: there is currently no government policy that regulates student fees at higher education institutions. The determination of a fee structure is the responsibility of the councils of higher education institutions.

I have, however, on a number of occasions, raised my concerns about the rates of fee increment and the escalations that we see in this sector. In this regard, I directed my department to work jointly with the National Treasury to investigate the macro funding for higher education. This report highlighted, amongst other things, the need for further investment in higher education to minimise the impact of fees for access to higher education.

In addition, I have requested the vice chancellors of higher education institutions, through their body Hesa, Higher Education SA, to investigate the primary drivers that lead to the current high fee increases. I will continue to work with the National Treasury and higher education institutions to develop a sustainable solution to the problem.

With respect to part (b) of the question, which relates to the impact on poor students, our government is committed to assisting financially needy but academically deserving students through the National Student Financial Aid Scheme, NSFAS. In this regard, the current government contribution, including loan repayments to the scheme, is over R1,3 billion. In addition, students who are allocated financial aid through NSFAS are not required to pay upfront registration fees, which have been a hardship factor for many students, as I have provided for this in the bursaries that are provided to them.

Ms M J J MATSOMELA: Thank you, Chairperson. Minister, thank you very much for your response. As the department and the National Treasury engage with different institutions, I think we should be cognisant of the interpretation of this practice of escalating fees by the public. The perception that has been created out there is that this is but another form of discrimination against the poor students by denying them access to these institutions.

With regard to the National Student Financial Aid Scheme, I would like to know how many students have already benefited from this scheme and in which areas of study they enrolled. I thank you.

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I have to write down the questions first so that I can answer them, Chairperson. I have addressed the matter of how we deal with the impact of fee increases for students and, as I have indicated, we’ll continue to work with institutions. We have already begun to see a fairly significant appreciation of the budget allocated for higher education, and I think this is a positive signal from government of support to higher education. I hope that there will be a quid pro quo, through the councils of our institutions, which will see a decline in the levels of fee increments that we see in this sector.

The number of students that has been assisted through the National Student Financial Aid Scheme since its introduction - and I begin with the Tertiary Education Fund of SA, which was established around 1992 and began providing support to students as the whole number forms part of the pool that relates to the NSFAS – is over 160 000.

Of course, the assistance takes a range of forms. The poorer students receive a higher allocation, while those who have some financial means might get an award, at times a single award or repeated over their degree study period, but small amounts because their families have some financial means. The poorest students are the beneficiaries of the National Student Financial Aid Scheme and the fields are all the disciplines that are offered in higher education.

Mr M J ELLIS: Thank you very much, Mr Chairman. I want to say that the way the question was put to the Minister seems to suggest that the questioner believes that universities can run on fresh air. Obviously, this is not the case, and I think that the Minister has indicated this to some extent.

But, I am also saying, Madam Minister, that I don’t believe your answer has been entirely clear, and I look for clarity from you this afternoon. I think it really is time that the ANC did make up its mind that either tertiary education is free to all, or that students must pay fees, while deserving cases must be given scholarships and certainly on merit. Really, Madam Minister, I would like you to please clarify your point with regards to this if you would. Thank you.

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Chairperson, this is the first time I have been accused of not being clear, so I’m a bit taken aback. [Laughter.] But it is only the hon Ellis who can say that to me and get away with it.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): He wants to benefit from your teaching skills, Madam Minister.

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: I don’t know. Well, I am not aware of any university that runs on fresh air. There are some institutions in the country, particularly private higher education institutions, that enjoy full subsidies from certain private-sector companies in the country. But, clearly, I have indicated that it should be possible for higher education institutions to manage their costs better. If one examines some of what goes on in some of our universities, there is certainly a sense that some of the increments might not be entirely justified.

This is why, instead of imposing a framework that would limit increments or fee levels, we have asked Hesa to actually examine the matter. This is because if you do a comparative analysis internationally, the fee levels - the income from tuition fees - in most university systems throughout the world range from 20% to 22% of the entire budget of the university. In South Africa the ranges are far higher than 25%.

So, clearly, we are falling outside of the international law and we need to address why. This is because there doesn’t seem to be a good rationale as to why we would extend well beyond internationally accepted norms. These are the questions I have put to Hesa.

Part of the rationale that they may have cited a year or two ago, was, of course, the fact that the subsidy they were receiving from government have had years of decline, but we have now actually had a significant improvement. Several vice chancellors have, in fact, expressed support and appreciation for the kinds of changes they are beginning to see in subsidy levels and support for infrastructure and development in the universities. Mr Leon, do resist asking; I know what you would want to ask about.

With respect to the policy of the ANC, we do not have a policy that there is free higher education. Our policy is very clear that universities are allowed to charge tuition fees. Students that are academically able have the potential to succeed, but that do not have the financial means are supported through the financial aid scheme and a range of bursaries and scholarships from the private sectors, state-owned enterprises, private individuals and in a range of other ways.

Ms S RAJBALLY: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon Minister, you have answered my questions but I still want to ask you the following. Hon Minister, how will the increase in the fees of higher education institutions be determined for each student between the rich and the poor? Thank you.

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Chairperson, I am not quite sure how to answer that. But I think one has to point out that in many societies there has been recognition that if you want a sustainable and thriving higher education sector, you can’t rely solely on public means. Hence, the recognition that due to the immense private benefit that derives to a person who has completed a higher education programme, it is, in fact, fairly logical and reasonable to demand some fee from those who can pay and then for the state to support those who do not have the means to pay. So, we are well within international practice in the manner that we are providing higher education fee support to young people in South Africa.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): The last question goes to the IFP, to Mr A M Mpontshane.

Mr A M MPONTSHANE: Thank you, Chair. Hon Minister, there is another category of students, which is those students who are admitted but halfway through they fail to pay the university. The university lets them continue until their final year of study. What happens is that the university withholds the results and these students end up not knowing whether they have passed their final year or not. Is there any way that the department can intervene to help such students who find themselves in this situation?

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Chairperson, there have been instances in which I have been approached by students who have been in such a situation. Where a young person has had a successful job interview and has a job offer, but requires proof of completion of a degree in order to actually take up the offer of a post, the university usually, in collaboration with an employer, will provide certified results and an arrangement to repay the university would be made.

There are contractual obligations that the new graduate might have towards the institution. So, I think, the students who have made contractual obligations need to meet those obligations. But where a student really doesn’t have financial means - just cannot, in any way, meet the obligation

• we would ask the university to see how they can assist them. Of course, when many of us were at university we sought part-time jobs to assist here and there to pay for the little things. We didn’t have hi-fi sets in the dormitories we occupied, nor did we have radios, nor was there beer- drinking, nor did we have cellphones, nor were we able to pay cellphone costs.

There are some cost measures that we must also look at, so that while we receive support we also recognise that achieving our degree is an important discipline and responsibility that we also need to play a part in.

         Analysis of policy implementation in Public Service

1. Mr B Mthembu (ANC) asked the Minister for the Public Service and Administration:

   (1) Whether she or her department has done any impact analysis into the implementation of policies in the Public Service since the dawn of freedom in South Africa; if so, what are the output and/or outcomes in this regard; if not, why not;

   (2) whether such a policy analysis is critically important; if not; why not; if so, what are the relevant details;

   (3) whether there is any specific emphasis on accelerating outcomes- based policy implementation measures as we advance into the second decade of freedom; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? N340E

The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Thanks, Chairperson, and thanks to the House. I think it is clear that in order for government to be effective in the delivery of services to the people, it is critical that state administrations put in place systems to monitor and evaluate the implementation of policies. This is a challenging task and is quite central to the international debate on public service reform.

Such systems are new areas, and governments across the world are striving to develop effective systems and measures to monitor and evaluate the performance of government developments, and the effectiveness of government programmes.

Let me give you some specific examples of what we are doing. I think, firstly, we should say that there is the government-wide monitoring and evaluation system, which is a very key programme for the governance and administration cluster. In this regard, the President, in his state of the nation address of February 2007 this year and in the government programme of action, clearly indicated the acknowledgement within the Public Service of the critical importance of monitoring and evaluation. So, we acknowledge the need to create a culture of continual learning and evidence-based decision-making to facilitate continual improvement.

As a government, we have led the development of this government-wide impact evaluation programme, and it is a unique and innovative government-led approach for improving evidence-based policy-making through the use of rigorous impact-evaluation techniques.

This particular programme was initiated at a seminar held in Pretoria in June last year. We are moving forward with it through the implementation of seven large-scale and methodologically rigorous evaluations of programmes in the Departments of Agriculture, Land Affairs, Housing, Provincial and Local Government, Education, Social Development, Trade and Industry and Health.

The high degree to which the programme is being institutionalised and embedded across several major departments, and the significant progress made by sector departments since June last year demonstrates a high level of commitment to internalising the values of impact evaluation for advancing government’s programmes.

The programme is of strategic importance, because it will set us as a model for countries in the region and across the world. Thanks, Chairperson. [Applause.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Mr G Q M Doidge): Hon members, I appeal to you to lower your voices, please.

Mr B MTHEMBU: Hon Chair and hon Minister, let me express my thanks for your very incisive response. Arising from your response, an indication has been made that policy monitoring and evaluation is not only intended to assess implementation challenges, but is equally important in identifying areas in which amendments may be made.

Now, that being the case, would you indicate to us whether there are any policy areas that would need some kind of a review so as to enhance their potential for the realisation of the intended outcomes? Thank you.

The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINSTRATION: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson … Deputy Chair. Is it Chairperson or the Deputy Chair?

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Chairperson.

The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Chairperson. Thanks for the correction. We have ongoing peer reviews, as you can see. [Laughter.]

So, in response to the question, indeed we see it as an important tool. It is a bit early, in view of the studies we are conducting, to indicate where the reviews will take place, but what we will definitely do is to use them to deepen areas of service delivery.

If the Minister of Education permits me, an example I could make reference to is that the Department of Education has agreed to identify the inventory of Quintile 1 schools by province, in terms of which they will define the quality of roll-out capacity within each province. In terms of this the source of data for the impact evaluation will include achievement tests on numeracy and literacy and data on school infrastructure, which will be drawn from the national education infrastructure management system.

Having said that, the outcomes of those findings and the whole impact evaluation that will be done will surely inform the Minister of Education what considerations we should take forward, as the government, in deepening our work on advancing numeracy and literacy in schools. Thanks.

Mnr K J MINNIE: Agb Voorsitter en agb Minister, ons kom pas verlede week uit ‘n baie geslaagde anti-korrupsie konferensie, “The Africa Forum on Fighting Corruption.” Ubuntu, integriteit en implementering, ensovoorts is baie erg en sterk gedebatteer.

Beleidsimplementering is van uiterste belang en daarom is dit baie kommerwekkend dat die staatsdienskommissie, in sy mediumtermyn strategiese plan, die volgende syfers ten opsigte van korrupsie binne die Staatsdiens sedert 2004 bekend gemaak het. Die getal sake wat sedert 2004 na die department verwys is, is 3 650. Dit sluit in dienslewering en sake wat nie met korrupsie gekoppel kan word nie, met ander woorde, navrae wat ontvang is, wat 1 120 beloop.

Daar is steeds 2 217 onafgehandelde korrupsie sake. Minister, my vraag is: Watter maatreëls word getref om hierdie onaanvaarbare laksheid van departemente te stop om teen korrupte amptenare op te tree? Dankie. [Tyd verstreke.] (Translation of Afrikaans paragraphs follows.)

[Mr K J Minnie: Hon Chairperson and hon Minister, last week we have just returned from a very successful anticorruption conference, “The Africa Forum on Fighting Corruption”. Ubuntu, integrity and implementation, etc were debated very seriously and vigorously.

Policy implementation is of extreme importance, and it is therefore of great concern that the Public Service Commission, in its medium-term strategic plan, made the following figures known with regard to corruption within the Public Service since 2004. The number of cases that have been referred to this department since 2004 is 3 650. It includes service delivery and cases that are unrelated to corruption, in other words, enquiries that have been received amount to 1 120.

There are still 2 217 corruption cases in progress. Minister my question is: Which measures are taken to end this unacceptable negligence of departments to act against corrupt officials? Thank you. [Time expired.]]

The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: Thank you very much.

Ek is baie dankbaar dat die agb lid baie nou geluister het in daardie konferensie en selfs geluister het na … [I am very grateful that the hon member has listened attentively in that conference and has even listened to …]

… what the Public Service Commission put before the portfolio committee.

Indeed, we have performed various assessments on degrees of corruption, or the extent of corruption, within the Public Service. We have also done it in broader society as a whole. We have done an audit of compliance by departments with regard to the overall framework that we have put in place in terms of the Public Service anticorruption strategy.

In terms of this, hon member, we have noted the point you have raised as actually being the cases that have been reported to the Public Service Commission both in terms of the help line and in terms of whistle-blowing. Our task is to follow up on this. We would like to increase the levels of compliance that we are currently seeing. It is necessary to state, if we look at the audit that has been done to date, that 65% of departments have complied with the set requirements.

We would like to move towards a situation in which we see 100% or much closer to 100% compliance. Our task is to ensure that both the Public Service Commission and governance and administration look very closely at the extent to which we can ensure full compliance with the various regulatory and compliance frameworks that we have put in place. Thanks. [Applause.]

Dr U ROOPNARAIN: Thank you, Chair. Hon Minister, I am partly covered. In the state of the nation address, President Mbeki said, and I quote:

We need to be prepared to roll up our sleeves and get down to work, fully understanding that the task to build South Africa for which we yearn is a common responsibility we all share. Now, how do we ensure that this becomes the lifeblood of managers and every civil servant; that they begin to realise their responsibility towards the citizens and the community so that service is not just unhampered but begins to flow? Thank you.

The MINISTER FOR THE PUBLIC SERVICE AND ADMINISTRATION: There is a fair amount we can do in terms of the various regulatory and compliance frameworks; and I have spoken about part of that. We have spoken about ongoing monitoring of government services, the use of the government-wide monitoring and evaluation system.

We need to look at the more effective use of performance management systems. There is the importance of the role of the executive in effecting performance management systems within departments, and ensuring the performance evaluation of directors-general, and that being implemented within government departments.

There is also the big question of the role of Parliament and its oversight, and ensuring that the executive and administration are held accountable by Parliament.

Finally, I think we should remember that a lot of this is also based on our own individual and community-collective understanding of our commitment to public service in ensuring that we do comply with the values that are set out in our Constitution and ensure the fulfilment of those values. So, there is a role for all of us in taking this forward. I thank you.

Expenditure of capital budgets by municipalities falling under Project Consolidate

1. Mr M M Swathe (DA) asked the Minister for Provincial and Local Government:

   (1) Whether, in light of the fact that 20 municipalities falling under Project Consolidate spent less than 10% of their capital budgets for the first quarter of the 2006-07 financial year, his department has taken any steps to ensure that municipalities falling under Project Consolidate will spend their full capital budgets by the end of the 2006-07 financial year; if not, (a) why not and (b) who is held accountable for this under-spending; if so, what steps;

   (2) whether any action has been taken against those accountable; if not, why not; if so, what action? N368E

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Chairperson, the answer to the question by the hon member is that he should note, firstly, that the National Treasury monitors municipal budgets, for example capital and operational in terms of sections 71 and 72 of the Local Government: Municipal Finance Management Act. On the other hand, the Department of Provincial and Local Government monitors the municipal infrastructure grant allocation.

With regard to the part of the question on the municipal infrastructure grant allocation, the answer is: R2,2 billion was allocated to all the 139 Project Consolidate municipalities for the financial year 2006-07. Project Consolidate municipalities reported expenditure of R1,1 billion or 49% as at the end of the second quarter of the municipal financial year.

As the Department of Provincial and Local Government, we are satisfied with the current spending levels and we are confident that these municipalities will be able to spend their allocations.

In view of the fact that the hon member has not identified the specific municipalities he is concerned about, no comment can be made thereon. However, municipalities are generally provided with support to ensure that they utilise all the funds granted to them for the intended purposes.

The answer to part (b) of the question is that accounting officers for municipalities are responsible for expenditure management in terms of section 65 of the Local Government: Municipal Finance Management Act. However, there is no evidence currently of gross underspending. The answer to part (2) regarding grants to municipalities is that the annual Division of Revenue Act, Dora, makes provision for the management of all transfers, receiving officers – for example, government departments, provinces and municipalities. It also makes provision for the handling of noncompliance and nonperformance relating to the transfer made by receiving officers. Such action may include the withholding, stopping and reallocation of transfers. The relevant provisions of Dora, with regard to underspending on the municipal infrastructure grant, will be applied should evidence of such underspending come to the fore. Thank you.

Mr M M SWATHE: Thank you very much, Chairperson and Deputy Minister. Deputy Minister, two weeks ago we experienced and witnessed protests by the people of the North West province about the lack of service delivery by municipalities, and yet a bulk of money from the last financial year was unspent. It is also noted in the Auditor-General’s report that the majority of municipalities, including those under Project Consolidate, got qualified reports. This indicates that Project Consolidate is failing to deliver on its mandate. If this is so, what action will the Deputy Minister and her department take to correct the situation; if not, why not? Thank you.

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Chairperson, all of what you call “unrest” in the various municipalities have political connotations. As I said earlier, regarding the 139 municipalities identified under Project Consolidate, we have specialists that are actually busy in those municipalities assisting with the lack of capacity in those municipalities. I don’t think I should actually repeat that.

But what I would like to share with the hon member is that at the extended Cabinet lekgotla in January 2007, it was decided that the White Paper on Local Government of 1998 would be reviewed. This process will further examine the question of the institutional and funding capacities of our municipalities. It will also reflect on the lessons of Project Consolidate and priorities of the five-year local government strategic agenda.

It should be remembered that our framework for local government finances is based on grants from national government - conditional and unconditional grants - and sources of own revenue. Thank you.

Ms P BHENGU: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon Minister, do you believe that the Project Consolidate municipalities are indeed beginning to generate the critical skills required to correct the incapacities currently experienced?

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Chairperson, when the department decided upon Project Consolidate together with Cabinet, it was a pilot project so that we could ascertain what was happening in local municipalities. I think it is too soon for people to say that Project Consolidate is not working.

As I said, we will wait until the end of their term of Project Consolidate so that we can make a proper assessment. At the moment what we as the department are saying, is that we think Project Consolidate has made some impact on the various municipalities. It is also very early to say how big the impact is, but we believe that something needs to be done. We can’t just simply sit back and say the municipalities have no capacity at all. We need to come with a programme, and that pilot programme is Project Consolidate.

Mr P F SMITH: Chair, I thought I heard the Deputy Minister saying now, in response to the question from hon Swathe, that she or the government, at least, was satisfied with the level of spending on capital grants.

Minister, I have a newspaper report here - and perhaps one doesn’t give too much credence to newspaper reports - that quotes a senior official, Mr Bologo, in your department, who says that there is persistent underspending on the MIG grant and that this is so bad that the department was requesting Treasury to reallocate funds. In fact, you made reference to the Dora proposals yourself. The report also goes on to say that 106 municipalities have already been identified for this reallocation of funds; further, that if you identify the provinces where this is problematic, they are the Eastern Cape with R144 million, Gauteng with R117 million and Mpumalanga with an R80 million shortfall on their spending. Given that, Deputy Minister, would it be satisfactory for you to indicate that you are happy with the spending levels as they are at present?

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Chairperson, I did not say that I am happy, but I said we are quite satisfied with the trend in spending so far.

Unfortunately, you are quoting from a newspaper report that I haven’t seen; so it is very difficult for me to comment on some newspaper report that is not in front of me. What we are saying as a department is that we are fairly satisfied because things are beginning to move, and, with those assistants and the capacity that we were talking about, we are fairly satisfied. We hope that the municipalities will spend all the MIG money.

What we also want to say, as the department, is that from now on if particular municipalities are unable to spend all those MIG funds, we will take them to the performing municipalities. That is the best way to ensure that municipalities do perform and finalise their funds. Thank you.

Mr W P DOMAN: Chair, it’s exactly on this last point that I want to question the hon Deputy Minister. By reallocating money away from poor- spending municipalities to those that are performing, isn’t that going to lead to more skewed development in our country? Shouldn’t we rather concentrate on capacitating those municipalities that can’t deliver, especially in the rural areas, because this is a new apartheid development that you are creating now?

The DEPUTY MINISTER FOR PROVINCIAL AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT: Chairperson, I am earning my salary today. [Laughter.] I hear your concern, hon member, and I think it is correct. I think that these programmes can run simultaneously; it doesn’t mean that simply because we remove funds from a nonperforming municipality to one that is performing that we can’t run these programmes parallel to each other, because it is also our responsibility to capacitate those local municipalities so that we can improve service delivery. This is because, at the end of the day, ordinary people must be able to feel the service delivery of a particular municipality.

I think those programmes that we will run simultaneously will assist with capacity. At the same time, we need to also create healthy competition amongst municipalities. That is why, at times, hon member, you see this unrest – I don’t like this word “unrest” – or these disturbances in the various local municipalities. This is because one performing municipality will perhaps deliver so many houses, whereas the municipality next to that particular municipality will not deliver houses. That is where the problem is – with performing and nonperforming municipalities. People ask why a particular municipality is able to build so many houses while they still live with the bucket system. Thank you.

   Use of dam water for economic development of Bushbuckridge area

1. Mr M W Sibuyana (IFP) asked the Minister of Water Affairs and Forestry:

   (1) Whether the supply of water from the Inyaka Dam to Bushbuckridge is intended to satisfy both the domestic and economic water needs of the local communities; if not, how does her department plan to address issues of the use of water for economic development in this area;

   (2) whether her department will consider the utilisation of water from the Klaserie Dam for the economic development of the Bushbuckridge area; if not, why not; if so, what are the relevant details? N372E

The MINISTER OF WATER AFFAIRS AND FORESTRY: Hon Chairperson, my department’s integrated approach to water management has to take into account various considerations and competing demands for water, and it tries to address these competing demands by taking into account, firstly, social equity, where we look at the equitable distribution of water amongst all people and at ensuring that as we do that we do address and redress the imbalances of the past. Secondly, we look at ecological sustainability, so that our aquatic ecosystems are protected, and so that we preserve the quality of our water resources, and so that we balance the water use as required both by upstream and downstream users.

Thirdly, we have financial considerations, which enable us to continue to generate revenue from the supply of this water that assists us with the management, upkeep and maintenance of infrastructure whilst, at the same time, ensuring that the poor are addressed through receiving free basic water and other poverty eradication programmes.

Lastly, we also take into account economic considerations and economic efficiency so that there’s greater efficiency in the allocation of water, particularly in those areas where water is very scarce.

To ensure that all these considerations and all these demands are properly balanced and measured, we as the department have decided that we are going to establish, at a very local level, what we call catchment management agencies for every water management area in South Africa where local people are represented - the municipality, business and everyone who has anything to do with that water. These demands are going to be weighed properly by the catchment management agencies.

It is in this context therefore that the supply of water from the Inyaka Dam to Bushbuckridge must be considered. We have to address all these needs. Currently, the Inyaka Dam has 123 million cubic metres and was constructed specifically to address the growing needs in Bushbuckridge.

Regarding to the second part of the question, we do not intend to supply Bushbuckridge from the Klaserie Dam as the intention is to increase the capacity to supply Bushbuckridge from this Inyaka Dam. The Klaserie Dam, as you know, coming from this area, is a very small dam in comparison to the Inyaka Dam. In comparison, its yield is only 12% of that of the Inyaka Dam, and, as we speak, the water from the Klaserie Dam is fully utilised. Thank you.

Mr M W SIBUYANA: Thank you, Chairperson and hon Minister. As far as I know, and I was there this past weekend, the water supplied to Bushbuckridge from the Inyaka Dam is only for domestic use. That water has nothing to do with economic development. What does the department intend doing about the economic development of the people in the area?

The MINISTER OF WATER AFFAIRS AND FORESTRY: Chairperson, the hon member is correct in that currently the water from the Inyaka Dam, which is pumped up to the Inyaka Dam reservoir, where it is purified and then transferred to Bushbuckridge, is currently being used for domestic use because it is potable water. We do acknowledge, as a department, that there is the requirement of water to be used for economic reasons as well. It is important to say that in this area there is a significant amount of irrigation that is taking place in Bushbuckridge, mainly by black farmers. This is economic development because here we are talking agriculture.

My department is currently working with the provincial government as well as the local government to see how we can increase the supply of water from the Inyaka Dam to Bushbuckridge to enable us to supply not only domestic water, but also to support emerging economic development, which could be tourism. This is if you look at the utilisation of the dam itself around clubs, fishing, golf courses of course, and all of that, and it could also be used for agriculture and other economic activities. So, we are working.

I think the hon member must remember that potable water must be used for drinking. We are trying to get water for economic development, which is going to be used for economic development. Thank you.

Mev D VAN DER WALT: Dankie, Voorsitter. Ek wil graag twee dinge van die Minister weet met betrekking tot Bosbokrand. Die eerste vraag is: Met verwysing na die nuwe dam wat gebou gaan word, die De Hoop-dam, is enige navorsing gedoen om ook vir die gemeenskappe van Bosbokrand ’n pypleiding aan te lê en ook daar te help met die voorsiening? Dit is ’n baie groot area, natuurlik, baie wydverspreid, en daar is baie probleme met water. Die tweede vraag is of daar enige voorsiening is of beplanning gedoen word vir die droogte-omstandighede, spesifiek in Bosbokrand? Dankie. (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Mrs D VAN DER WALT: Thank you, Chairperson. I would like to know two things from the Minister with regard to Bosbokrand. The first question is: With regard to the new dam that will be built, the De Hoop Dam, whether any research has been done about laying pipelines for the communities of Bosbokrand and helping with the supply there as well? Naturally it is a very big area, and widespread, and there are many problems with water. The second question is whether any provision or planning is made for the drought conditions, specifically in Bosbokrand? Thank you.]

The MINISTER OF WATER AFFAIRS AND FORESTRY: Chairperson, the question about Bosbokrand, water supply pipelines and drought is a new question. I would appreciate it if the hon member would table that question for proper attention. Thank you.

Mev D VAN DER WALT: Voorsitter, ek neem die Minister se punt in ag dat ek oor die droogte-omstandighede ’n aparte vraag moet stel. Maar is daar ondersoek gedoen of die De Hoop-dam kan bydra? Daar is hier gevra oor Inyakadam en Klaseriedam. Is De Hoop-dam ook in ag geneem vir dieselfde gemeenskappe? (Translation of Afrikaans paragraph follows.)

[Mrs D VAN DER WALT: Chairperson, I take the Minister’s point into consideration that I should ask a separate question about the drought conditions. But has it been investigated whether the De Hoop Dam can contribute? There was a question asked here about the Inyaka Dam and the Klaserie Dam. Was the De Hoop Dam also taken into consideration for the same communities?]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Minister, I don’t know the geography of that area. I don’t know whether the question is related. The MINISTER OF WATER AFFAIRS AND FORESTRY: Chairperson, as I’ve said, the question is completely unrelated. The hon member knows that various studies have been done, and I’ve answered questions about De Hoop Dam here. She must table a question about this particular area she is referring to - I’m not sure whether it’s Bushbuckridge – so that I can respond to it as far as the De Hoop Dam is concerned.

What I’ve said is that what we are doing in Bushbuckridge right now is concentrating on the Inyaka Dam in order to get the complete supply of water required. Maybe in the future, if it proves feasible, we could look at the Klaserie Dam to see if we can get water from there, or if we can get water from outside the area of Bushbuckridge. Thank you.

     School Nutrition Programme: status and plans for extension

1. Mr B G Mosala (ANC) asked the Minister of Education:

   (1) What is the status of the School Nutrition Programme;

   (2) whether there are any plans to extend this scheme to secondary school learners; if not, why not; if so, what plans? N338E

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Chairperson, the reply to the question is as follows. With respect to the first part of the question, the national School Nutrition Scheme is proceeding well in most of the provinces. The Eastern Cape has faced a number of challenges, but these have been addressed and children are once again being provided with school meals.

With respect to the second part of the question, the Northern Cape and the Western Cape have extended the programme to some secondary schools. The Western Cape provides school meals to 21 000 learners in 116 Quintile 1 and 2 secondary schools, while the Northern Cape provides school meals to 59 862 learners in 101 Quintile 1 and 2 secondary schools.

In collaboration with the Financial and Fiscal Commission, my department has undertaken research into the feasibility of extending the nutrition programme to all deserving secondary schools in our provinces. The report from this study is currently being finalised and we will make a statement on the findings when we have the report. Thank you.

Mr B G MOSALA: Thank you, Chairperson. Thank you, Minister, for the response that you have given. Furthermore, I wish to commend our ANC-led government for demonstrating so much concern and care for the basic rights of children. We extend an appeal to officials at all levels of government, school management teams as well as voluntary food handlers and suppliers entrusted with the task of rolling out this programme to do so with honesty and integrity.

However, my question is whether we have sufficient and effective measures in place to deal with defaulters who undermine specific conditions laid down for the successful implementation of this important programme. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon Minister, we have two minutes for supplementary questions and answers, so try to make this brief, please.

The MINISTER OF EDUCATION: Yes, I will be brief, Chairperson. I just want to say yes, we do have measures in place. I have a co-ordinating unit in the national department. We have now appointed co-ordinators in every province. Every provincial department has a team and, therefore, whenever there is a difficulty we actually work with the directors that serve as the provincial co-ordinating teams in order to assist the provinces to address their problems.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Thank you. Hon Boinamo, will you also help by keeping it short?

Mr G G BOINAMO: Modulasetulo, ke tla leka go tsibosa Ntlo e gore kgang e ke tla simololang ka yona ga se mafoko ame ke nopolo e e tswang mo go Noseweek: “Let them eat kak”. [Chairperson, I would like to warn this House that what I am going say at the beginning of my speech to start with are not my words, it is a quotation from Noseweek:”Let them eat kak”.]

A bunch of well-connected ANC fat cats are using an Eastern Cape school …

[Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon member, please take your seat. There is a point of order.

Mr C T FROLICK: Madam Chairperson, I rise on a point of order: the reference to a particular article, which is not parliamentary material, and the reference to the words specifically are unparliamentary.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): I got the words. Thank you.

Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Chair, can I address you on that please? [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): You may address me, yes.

Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Chair, the hon member was quoting from a newspaper article, and I believe under the circumstances it is quite in order for that word to be used. [Interjections.] He is not using it in an unusual context; he is quoting it from the newspaper.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon Deputy Chief Whip, the hon Frolick is quite right. The wording is unparliamentary whether it comes from a newspaper or not, and the fact that it is quoted from a newspaper is not acceptable. [Applause.] Hon Boinamo, I would ask you to withdraw that particular statement.

Mr G G BOINAMO: I withdraw.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Thank you. On this point, hon Boinamo, having had very little time to ask the question, I am going to say that your time has expired. Thank you. [Interjections.]

Mr M J ELLIS: Madam Chair, on a totally unrelated matter, could I please indicate to you that the hon Ministers of Finance, Public Service, and Justice and Constitutional Development appear to be restudying a document which is of great interest to this whole House. I wonder whether the Minister of Finance or any of the Ministers would care to give us a bit of information as to what is in that document they are studying. [Interjections.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Go ahead, hon Minister. We are very interested.

The MINISTER OF FINANCE: It is a race card for Kenilworth racecourse tomorrow. I don’t know of what interest it is to the House. [Laughter.]

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Well, perhaps you can pass on the information to us if you have a winner. The time allocated for questions of all kinds has expired and outstanding replies received will be printed in Hansard.

See also QUESTIONS AND REPLIES

                          NOTICE OF MOTION

Mr C M LOWE: Madam Chairperson, I hereby give notice that I shall move on behalf of the DA:

That the House- (1) notes the proposal and report delivered by the Western Cape Transport and Public Works MEC, Marius Fransman, to the Western Cape provincial cabinet last month that a three-year moratorium be placed on affirmative action in order to ease the looming skills crisis in certain sectors; and

 2) hereby resolves to debate the merits of the proposal as contained in
    the report delivered by MEC Fransman.


         CONDOLENCES TO PARENTS OF SHELDEAN HUMAN’S PARENTS

                         (Draft Resolution)

Mrs C DUDLEY: Madam Chairperson, on behalf of the ACDP I give notice that I shall move:

That the House-

(1) expresses its sadness and anger at the brutal killing of another innocent seven-year-old girl, Sheldean Human;

(2) extends heartfelt condolences to the parents of little Sheldean, family members and friends, and prays that the Lord comfort and heal their broken hearts; and

(3) commends all who worked tirelessly to find Sheldean, who was abducted from near her home in Pretoria last month.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Hon member, is that a motion without notice?

Mrs C DUDLEY: It was notice of a motion.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): If I’m not mistaken, it would be more suitably placed under motions without notice.

Mrs C DUDLEY: We just didn’t have time to get it through by 12 noon, as we were in a Whips׳ meeting.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): Anyway, considering the subject matter, if there is no objection … [Interjections.] I didn’t want to rule it out of order; I wanted you to change it. I don’t want to rule this out of order, because I find it very difficult to rule out of order a motion on that subject.

Mrs C DUDLEY: I’m happy with that. Thank you.

The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms C-S Botha): In which case I have to ask if there were any objections. None. Okay, thank you.

Agreed to. The House adjourned at 17:09. ____

            ANNOUNCEMENTS, TABLINGS AND COMMITTEE REPORTS

ANNOUNCEMENTS:

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

The Speaker and the Chairperson

1. Assent by President in respect of Bill

(a)    Postal Services Amendment Bill [B 22B – 2006] – Act No 22 of
     2006 (assented to and signed by President on 25 February 2007).

TABLINGS

National Assembly and National Council of Provinces

1. The Minister for Public Enterprises

(a)     Amendment to Eskom’s pricing structure, tabled in terms of
    section 42(4) of the Local Government: Municipal Finance Management
    Act, 2003 (Act No 56 of 2003) and supporting documents required in
    terms of section 42(3) of the same Act.

1. The Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development

(a)     Report on withholding of remuneration of Magistrate K Suliman,
    in terms of section 13(4A)(b) of the Magistrates Act, 1993 (Act No
    90 of 1993).

COMMITTEE REPORTS

National Assembly

1. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Communications on the filling of a vacancy on the Council of the Independent Communications Authority of South Africa, dated 6 March 2007:

   In its report to the National Assembly on 7 September 2006 the Committee recommended that the House submits to the Minister of Communications a list of suitable candidates at least one and a half times the number of councillors to be appointed on the Council of the Independent Communications Authority of South Africa. They were Dr AJ Barendse, Ms M Matlala, Ms M Mohlala, Mr R Nkuna, Ms B Ntombela, Ms KA Serero Chiloane, Dr M Socikwa and Prof JCW van Rooyen.

   After consideration, the Minister recommended that the following persons be appointed to serve on the Council:

   Dr AJ Barendse, Ms M Mohlala, Mr R Nkuna, Ms B Ntombela, Prof JCW van Rooyen.

   Dr Barendse subsequently withdrew his nomination, and the matter was referred back to the Minister who recommended that the National Assembly approves the appointment of Dr M Socikwa as councillor.

   On 28 February 2007 Parliament referred the matter to the Committee, which considered the Minister’s recommendation on 6 March 2007, and reports as follows:

   That the House agrees to the appointment of Dr M Socikwa as councillor on the Council of the Independent Communications Authority of South Africa. Report to be considered.

2. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Minerals and Energy on the Convention on the Physical Protection of Nuclear Material, dated 7 March 2007:

   The Portfolio Committee on Minerals and Energy, having considered the request for approval by Parliament of the Convention on the Physical Protection of Nuclear Material, referred to it, recommends that the House, in terms of section 231(2) of the Constitution, approve the said Convention.

   Report to be considered.

3. Report of the Portfolio Committee on Transport on the Convention on International Interests in Mobile Equipment Bill [B 1 - 2007] (National Assembly- sec 75), dated 7 March 2007:

   The Portfolio Committee on Transport, having considered the subject of the Convention on International Interests in Mobile Equipment Bill [B 1 - 2007] (National Assembly – sec 75), referred to it and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism as a section 75 Bill, reports the Bill without amendment.